A brief overview of Iroquoian pictograph writing.
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- Опубликовано: 10 апр 2023
- In which I go over much of what is known about pictograph writing.
The bulk of the information presented comes from a single source.
Link to the book, Tales of the Iroquois, by Tehanetorens. The pamphlet in question is chapter one.
goodminds.com/products/091964...
Other groups had their own systems. The Ojibwe are a notable example.
Link to patreon if you are so inclined.
www.patreon.com/user?u=3998481
" this is a fascinating subject and some one who is not me, should dedicate alot of time to studying it."
Reminds me of my attempts at finding information on Mi'kmaw hierogylphs. Interesting to know other nations had similar systems.
I find it very likely that there was a lot of local variation on the symbols as well as multiple symbols that meant the same thing. As an example of something similar, there was a lot of variation within the Latin alphabet throughout the Middle Ages. U and V were used interchangeably for a long time, as were I and J. And of course, before the printing press was invented everyone added their own flourish to their handwriting. It was still recognisably the same alphabet, just slightly different from person to person.
I suspect it would've been similar with the Iroquois and Mi'kmaq. The symbols would be largely the same, but every community and maybe every individual would put a slightly different spin on it.
Fascinating information. I have always wondered about the native peoples of the northeastern forests. I wish there was more historical documentation, but you have provided valuable insight.
THANK YOU FOR THIS! I keep running into bullshit oversimplified appropriations of this practice, but a respectful dissection of it like this is such a refreshing take.
The passage by Cadwallader Colden is so interesting. I have seen depictions similar to the ones described that were found during the Sullivan Expedition. I would be happy to share what I have seen with you. Thank you for sharing this pamphlet by Ray Fadden. I have not seen this one of his. I agree with you that there needs to be more done in preserving and spreading the knowledge that the pictographs hold. The work you do is good minded work.
I'm quite interested to hear what you've read.
@@MalcolmPL There is a 1779 journal from the Sullivan Expedition by Lt. Col. Adam Hubley that has two drawings of tree paintings that the soldiers came across with their meanings. There is also a sketch of a longhouse from the period and lots of maps of troop movement. Fascinating stuff!
Last year I drove the route of Sullivan's Expedition from Catherine's Town (Montour Falls) all the way back to my house. I have an idea where the one tree painting once stood based on their camp locations each night. I would stop and get out at each village and walk as much as I could. The things that humble us.
Wonderful video as always! I find old writings systems and pictographs fascinating, it's a shame we don't have more concrete information native writing/symbols.
You gotta love writing from the 50's. It seems to have been well intended. But including "general Indian" designs from apparently any sort of North American native peoples and calling them Iroquois is perhaps not super useful for reconstructing what that specific group of people was going. It'd be like trying to reconstruct Roman Latin by throwing in symbols from Viking runes, a couple of Egyptian Hieroglyphs, and some Arabic letters and saying it was all generally from the same part of the world.
We all remember in 122CE when the Roman emperor 𓀣ةُᛉRيَّᛏN𓀈 gave that famous speech to the Senate in the curia, right?
It's funny I've seen tributes to Roman emperors in Egypt done exactly like that. With the emperor depicted just as they would of depicted a bronze age local Pharaoh smiting his foes with a stone mace thousands of years earlier. All in a local mix of ancient hieroglyphs, Latin and greek.
It depends on the level of abstraction of the word he was compensating, if it was a conceptual word then I agree it is ridiculous. If it was a noun then I think it is a reasonable solution, as most of the nouns are obvious designs.
The memory pillars as described remind me somewhat of Ashoka’s Pillars or Turkic, Scythian, and Yamnayan Stelae. Fascinating stuff.
There are ochre pictographs on the rocks of Blindfold Lake Kenora, On. I will look at them with a more discerning eye this summer.
Question have you heard of the recent breakthrough with paleolithic European cave art? The discovery the dots next to animals were lunar cycles from spring. Showing they were keeping track of animals breeding season? Do you think perhaps similar hidden information could be in many native American pictographs? Or perhaps give clues to other people's pictographs throughout history we have no writing for?
Regardless I think you may still find some bark symbols preserved in bogs yet to be discovered.
Written language of the Americans is overall a sorely under-researched topic. There was another video on youtube I found eye opening, forget if I mentioned it prior, of the sheer level of intentional and accidental sabotage of comprehension of the Native civilizations and their forms of writing/literary work. There was either hieroglyphic or outright written languages stemming over the bulk of not just North America but Central/South as well, and much of it was simply brushed off, failed to be comprehended as a language by explorers/researchers, or outright destroyed to facilitate colonialist narratives. The one that always makes me sorta angry is a Spanish museum which had been using rocks with script on them, IIRC from the Easter Islands or Peruvian coast, as door stoppers. It was only the 20th century somebody picked one up and thought 'oh hey that's a language'.
The one thing that was also interesting from the video was the sheer prominence of many polities worshiping a feathered serpent in many eras, or at least having some pictographic art. I don't recall it reaching the lakes at all, but it permeated up from Mesomerica all the way to the Great Plains, hinting at a rather behemoth trade route running from both continents. Not only is Lake Nation history interesting, but it'd be fascinating to find out how the Lake Nations fitted into the grand scheme of North American history overall, since your ancestors obviously didn't exist in a vacuum from the Mississippian great cities such as Cahokia or the steppe lifestyle of the Plains civs.
The similarities of the Iroquoian pictographs and I’m assuming if they did petroglyphs as well there very similar to the Fremont pictographs and petroglyphs we have in utah and few other states. I do know there was a cave in utah where they found a bunch (sorry I can’t remember the number exactly) moccasins most children’s and some resembling the moccasin like boots of the Canadian tribes(can’t remember what tribes exactly) very interesting tho now seeing the Iroquois pictographs and other types of art! Thank you tons for this information❤ if your interested I’d love to discuss and maybe share some information!
Super cool- I have had similar thoughts for us Mi'kmaq. Some interesting things I noticed in your pictograph book- 1) As a flute maker the type of flute depicted is interesting to me (ruclips.net/video/FXywGnq4wxs/видео.html). It seems to possibly have a hole at the (left) left of the flute making it side-blown rather than end blown like what we think for modern Native American flutes. But then why is there a decoration or something tied like a block would be just above the finger holes (as in modern NA flute), and if that is a block, why is the breath chamber so long? Not that you couldn't make it work, but just unnecessary and would make it longer (and less practical) to carry with no impact on music tone. Maybe it is made from rolled up piece of bark instead of wood, so the tie in the middle is just keeping the bark rolled. I also wonder why the foot (right) end is blackened? 2) Mi'kmaq have a double curve motif which we often decorated chief's coats and such with and we do not have a definitive meaning for (it is thought to be lost rn with many different theories ranging from plants to waves to canoes and more). I found it hilarious that our basic double-curve means death in the language of our greatest rival in traditional times (ruclips.net/video/FXywGnq4wxs/видео.html).
I wouldn’t necessarily read too much into the flute design. Without knowing where he sourced the design from we can’t say whether it represents reality or is just artistic license on the part of the illustrator.
This is extremely interesting! Thank you for sharing. I think there is still a push to believe that the Indigenous were not as high level as the Europeans, when the more we know, the more we are able to see they were actually way ahead of the Europeans on many levels.
was it also used to write someone's name? i remember seeing a local chief explain how they used to draw their names before the introduction of a writing system
It was in certain treaty documents. Some would try to spell out their name, others would mark with their clan animal, some people with facial tattoos would replicate those.
i want more.
I wanna know your thoughts on ulu knives
They are good for butchery and hidework, lousy for woodwork.
@@MalcolmPL They're also great for finely chopping up herbs or small veggies like chives. you can just kinda wobble them back and forth and chop stuff into tiny bits really quickly
Do you know anything about sign language? I've been told that plains indian sign language (PISL) was a lingua franca throughout much of the united states. Did the great lakes and east coast nations have anything like that? Was there such a thing as Iroquoian sign language?
I don’t know much about it.
ruclips.net/video/pogA7PQCtu0/видео.html
Makes you wonder. If Iroquois are descended from Eastern Asiatic Chinese and have none of the symbols the Chinese had, their migration most likely predated the Chinese language.
Are there any similarities between Iroquois and Asians beyond hair color and such?
The evidence I've seen points to a crossing of about 30,000 BC, of Siberian origin. So that's about twenty nine thousand years before Chinese writing.
@@MalcolmPL Any holdovers from Sumerian?
Again, the migration predates cuneiform by about twenty six thousand years.
@@MalcolmPL earliest stone vessels I know of (not clay) date back 6,000 BC and are in the sumerian area. Maybe the clay pots broke and that was all that was left. What's your thought on the atmospherical electrical arching phenomenon recorded in cave paintings throughout the world? In regards to Iroquois and whoever else you know
@@danachos Apparently ancient Pali and Egyptian are the same language.
According to Ken Wheeler, aka theoria apophasis.
I don't even know what Pali is though something in India.