One thing that's often overlooked, once you gain more experience your instincts will change. Practice control and visualization of the moves and you'll instinctively make better choices.
I usually can't wait to get on the wall, especially if there are new problems. So i go by instinct. If I fail I switch to control and start analysing the route
@@illduitmyself Okey so what are you saving energy for? For a really hard climb you're trying? Now is thay what you should be doing every climbing session. Definitely no. Sometimes it's just really good to climb problems easily within your max reach without planning ahead too much. You'll realize so much more on the wall than infront of the wall. Good practice.
Another con I would mention for an analytical or control climber is that as a beginner it is difficult to do an analysis when you don't really know a lot of the holds or have done a lot of the moves certain sequences require just yet. At least this has been the case for me and why I'm currently training shutting off my analytical sometimes and just going with the flow until I've learned more :) Thanks for the video, really well done!
Great way to practice this in my opinion besides just climbing a lot is silent climbing. Climb the route but dont make any noise. It's great way to learn where to position your body and feet position aswell. If possible dont drop down from the top but also come down as quiet as possible. All the best sends to you! Have fun!
You're right. Building up a memory bank of pattern recognition and movement sequences takes a fair amount of time and mileage. If you're lacking that knowledge or experience, then it's best sometimes to learn/experiment quickly through intuition than spending too much time trying to work it out. Thanks for the comment!
Personally I started out instinct because I had no idea what I was doing, but now that I’ve started climbing v4s I find myself really trying to look at the intentions and how it’s supposed to be done, and planning where I’m going to go! I’m not the best at it yet, but I’m figuring it out
Keep up the great content! Even as a moderately experienced climber, your videos are consistently thought provoking and extremely well reasoned. It's refreshing to hear you discuss the "why" behind movement where most people only consider the "how". I'll be pointing new climbers your way for sure.
Once you have a few years of climbing experience it all blends together, you visualize what you expect the movements to be but rely on your instinct when the climb is a bit different than expected
I loved the inclusion of the "creative" style. I'm a couple months into learning bouldering. I have a wildly active imagination. Naturally I try to find numerous the ways to climb the same route. It is fun to try to think up non-obvious solutions to bouldering problems.
Been climbing for about 2 months. Just started slowing learning to flag. Also making sure I use my hips, way harder than I thought. I hink I may be a mix of both though. Mostly control though. Instinct reminds me if dynamic. I’m more static.
... I feel like a fat ol’ man... and I was there, I’m not young and full of vinegar and piss any longer so I feel like having more control and reading the moves gives me more advantage... now if I could combine the two...
As a martial artist and a climber, I can easily say how my default, instinct heavy approach has both advantages and disadvantages. In general, with climbing, I tend to make quick movements and just go for whatever the closest hold is. Issue is, my betas are messy and often screw me over. In fighting, I try to play very reactionary and lean toward exploiting my opponent's mistakes. Problem with that is that I'll grapple into a bad position myself, often what my opponent wants. But overall, I feel as though instinct works better for fighting, simply due to the constant shifting of conditions, whereas climbing is literally set in stone.
Sometimes I find problems that I cannot do if I try to think how my body should be in order to get trough them, but just stopping thinking and letting my body solve the problem works perfectly.
Aren't we all instinct climbers as long as we don't face an issue? I always thought it was normal to have a quick look jump on and try what feels naturally and only if it doesn't work i swap into a "control climber" mindset - the more I learn when figuring stuff out the more I can do instinctively obviously Isn't that just the normal approach to learning in general? Who is going to be a controlled climber on an indoor V1 or V2?
I'm likely not as good a climber as you, but using control on easy routes for a warm up and cool down has helped me develop my decision making and instincts on harder routes. So to answer your question, me!
@@jfat4 But isn't that just practicing? You are making a concious decision to do that. To be fair the point I am trying to make is not that he is wrong with the general idea, but I am questioning whether in real life either one extreme actually exists. Another example would be the following scenario. An instinct based climber according to this video should just jump on the wall and see how it goes. But nobody really does that on their highest grade everybody looks at the wall and the holds beforehand thinking about a beta. It's just that their mindest is to throw the beta away as soon as something looks more inviting when they are one the wall. In comparison a controlled climber trying the exact same beta would struggle much longer in the "bad" position before deciding to go for another hold. But if the extremes were real the instinct based climber wouldn't look at the route at all and the controlled climber would just give up, get off the wall and start over by thinking about the right beta from the ground. Therefore I am question why this video exists cause the only advice is "try to climb more like both" when in reality everybody already does. I also don't think that his climbing representation of how each style of climber climbs is accurate. Why? Well the first climber he showed had a dynamic approach to the route while the second had a static approach - so he basically just showed the different mindset of a dynamic climber and a static climber. An instinct based climber who prefers static climbing could choose to do the route of the second climber when just thrown on the wall so to me this whole video idea seems really weird.
My problem is I climb controlled, but due to growing up as an elite gymnast, when I climb controlled, people think I am climbing uncontrolled with gut instinct as what is a natural movement for me seems to be un natural to most climbers/people I meet. What I see as a 100% repeatable movement is a risky move to others. No 2 people are the same. So how do you decide if they are climbing analytically or gut feeling unless you portray your own skills onto them rather than basing it off the specific climbers abilitys
honestly it looks mostly like the comparison is 'climber has beta' or 'onsight/flash' vs 'climber doesn't have beta' or 'redpoint/send'. I understand the distinction you're going for, but I don't think the climbing footage really reflects it accurately. Ultimately, instinct is trained, so different people will have different instincts given a specific problem.
I agree with you in my opinion the climber comparison looks more like Climber A: dynamic climber; Climber B: static climber Cause someone who prefers a static climb would choose to do so even if just thrown on the wall with no beta. Or in other words a static climber climbing based on instincts will still be a static climber. The idea that instinct based climbing and controlled climbing exists is kind of true. But in my opinion in climbing neither extreme really exists people are always somewhere in between.
@@Dom-cq8pw I get the feeling that every advanced climber is both. Rarely have I seen someone climbing higher than V5 climb a boulder without figuring out the sequence first, it's just something beginners don't do because they don't have intuition about which combination of holds requires which movement. So, I think that every climber becomes more of an analytical climber as he progesses through the grades and only switches to the instinctual style if he encounters a move which he read wrong, as once you are on the wall it is way easier to figure out how something is supposed to be climbed. Either this or during warm up where problems are so easy that not much thought has to be given to them.
Instinct and flow are more enjoyable. It's the same reason why I prefer route climbing to Bouldering. When climbing 60 foot routes for the first time, you can't really analyze like you can on a boulder. I typically get a general Idea of the flow of the whole route looking for the crux, and spending most of my "control" and analysis on that section. After climbing it once, I like to climb it again to clean up any movements I felt I made a mistake on. Right before the second go I'll usually visualize just the areas that didn't feel smooth.
im definitely an instinct climber, i would say the biggest place i suffer is i can't read a route if it has a move im not familiar with or dont see often
I know which side I am leaning to. And I know what side I should be praticing more. I am redpointing a 30-move route and there is a section I still cannot remember. I know I am going through it in at least 3 different ways but I am unable to decide in advance which one I will be using and I am still unsure which one is the safest or which one is the most energy efficient. Definetly need to work on my "control" game.
That quote from Bruce Lee is pretty much how I work! Being a new climber (only been to the gym 7 times to date, twice of which were half trips) I'm already sending some 5.9's. Sometimes when someone is giving me advice or helping my beta I'll ask them if they ever see people do "XYZ" and they say that they haven't ever seen anyone use that grip or do that thing I described. So it's kindof cool that I'm already climbing in an effective, yet super unique way!
It depends on the risk involved. I generally enjoy the instictive way of doing things more but it's important to be able to switch to a more controlled approach for alpine lead climbing.
For me it helped me to read the start - what is the first handhold to move to and with what hand. Also I try to identify the hardest part of the route and try to come up with an idea how to climb it. More than that I mostly can not remember anyway and I need to climb to start to remember details. I try to apply the rough bets and if it works and finish the route, I think about what felt wonky (like moving a weighted foot, a desperate reach, a barndoor) and look at those parts again and what I could do instead. If my beta doesn't work, I need to analyze anyway. We are a group of 3 people. We keep quiet through other people's first attempts mostly. Normally then we start to analyze together and give feedback etc.. For me it really helps to repeat climbs (especially easier ones) until I have a beta that has no or very few flaws. It is amazing how much easier a climb can get if you keep working on it. The improvements you implement there you might learn and apply on another climbs. One thing we also do is filming each other. The memory of climbing a route is sometimes completely different from what actually went down :D. All the best! Do you have any tips?
Thanks for the vid, and lots of great info. I would add a few things. This guy almost entirely climbs 'control', even in his examples of 'instinct', he's still climbing too slow to be considered instinctual. Watching an instinctual climber, a lot of people will say they dance, bounce, and swing their way up a wall, much like a monkey does. A 'control' climber is more akin to a bear climbing a wall, taking lots of time to get their feet set right and test their weight before going for a moderate distance hold, which is neither here nor there. Lastly, one of the cons to 'instinctual' climbing is that in the process of really committing for each move, you end up taking some more dramatic falls and banging a hand or arm every once in a while. That's also the main and only pro for the 'control' climbers in my opinion, that they fall less frequently and with less injuries. Needless to say, a lot of dynamic climbers are more artsy or live for the day types, and static climbers are more analytic or plan for tomorrow types.
i find its not a question of which are you, but rather a little bit from group A and a bit from group B. I find myself going to the wall and thinking, ok what mood am I in? what amount of instinct or control do i need for this problem?
The first time I ussualy climb a route based on instinct for the first few tries and once I've done it and or am not making progress with climbing it based on instinct I look for a controlled beta
not true. of course instinct sometimes results in not the "intended" beta (even tho I hate that term, as it is completely irrelevant in the creative and free sport of climbing), but it doesnt mean the climbers uses less perfect technique. and instinct also usually results in a beta that fits YOU and YOUR style best. nothing to do with being sloppy
One thing that's often overlooked, once you gain more experience your instincts will change. Practice control and visualization of the moves and you'll instinctively make better choices.
These are the clearest side-by-side comparisons I've ever seen in a climbing video. Well done!
Afraid I'm a meat sack hanging on for dear life :(
Same!
I usually can't wait to get on the wall, especially if there are new problems. So i go by instinct. If I fail I switch to control and start analysing the route
T Erha I’m the same. For me it’s almost like a test to see how far instinct can take me first go
inefficient though. waste of energy. quick analyze can save you time and energy
same
Same!
@@illduitmyself Okey so what are you saving energy for? For a really hard climb you're trying? Now is thay what you should be doing every climbing session. Definitely no. Sometimes it's just really good to climb problems easily within your max reach without planning ahead too much. You'll realize so much more on the wall than infront of the wall. Good practice.
Another con I would mention for an analytical or control climber is that as a beginner it is difficult to do an analysis when you don't really know a lot of the holds or have done a lot of the moves certain sequences require just yet. At least this has been the case for me and why I'm currently training shutting off my analytical sometimes and just going with the flow until I've learned more :) Thanks for the video, really well done!
Great way to practice this in my opinion besides just climbing a lot is silent climbing. Climb the route but dont make any noise. It's great way to learn where to position your body and feet position aswell. If possible dont drop down from the top but also come down as quiet as possible. All the best sends to you! Have fun!
@@MrXtr3m3ly Yep, I've been giving that a go too, great suggestion!
You're right. Building up a memory bank of pattern recognition and movement sequences takes a fair amount of time and mileage. If you're lacking that knowledge or experience, then it's best sometimes to learn/experiment quickly through intuition than spending too much time trying to work it out. Thanks for the comment!
I just watch what other people do at the moment then give it a go and see if it's the right technique for me.
Very good point!!!!
Personally I started out instinct because I had no idea what I was doing, but now that I’ve started climbing v4s I find myself really trying to look at the intentions and how it’s supposed to be done, and planning where I’m going to go! I’m not the best at it yet, but I’m figuring it out
Keep up the great content! Even as a moderately experienced climber, your videos are consistently thought provoking and extremely well reasoned. It's refreshing to hear you discuss the "why" behind movement where most people only consider the "how". I'll be pointing new climbers your way for sure.
never thought of climbing in this light. thanks
Once you have a few years of climbing experience it all blends together, you visualize what you expect the movements to be but rely on your instinct when the climb is a bit different than expected
This 100%!
I loved the inclusion of the "creative" style. I'm a couple months into learning bouldering. I have a wildly active imagination. Naturally I try to find numerous the ways to climb the same route. It is fun to try to think up non-obvious solutions to bouldering problems.
I love the Bruce Lee quotes, and the high quality breakdown and application to climbing styles. Fantastic job!
The figure 4 leg is so cool!!!! AAAAA.
Great video as always! Such clear comparisons and well explained thought process for both types of climbing
Great video. Love how you incorporated Bruce Lee's philosophy to climbing, as it is also very applicable to most things in life in general.
Been climbing for about 2 months. Just started slowing learning to flag. Also making sure I use my hips, way harder than I thought. I hink I may be a mix of both though. Mostly control though. Instinct reminds me if dynamic. I’m more static.
i am new to climbing so i suck at reading boulders so i just start climbing and see what will happen. so i guess i am an instinct climber
jimmy kraft im new too
... I feel like a fat ol’ man... and I was there, I’m not young and full of vinegar and piss any longer so I feel like having more control and reading the moves gives me more advantage... now if I could combine the two...
I enjoyed this vid very much. Working through the thought process was helpful.
Very rad high quality video man 🙌
As a martial artist and a climber, I can easily say how my default, instinct heavy approach has both advantages and disadvantages. In general, with climbing, I tend to make quick movements and just go for whatever the closest hold is. Issue is, my betas are messy and often screw me over. In fighting, I try to play very reactionary and lean toward exploiting my opponent's mistakes. Problem with that is that I'll grapple into a bad position myself, often what my opponent wants. But overall, I feel as though instinct works better for fighting, simply due to the constant shifting of conditions, whereas climbing is literally set in stone.
Super helpful channel. Already looked for a purchasable training guide :) . Keep up the stunning work
Nice content!
I try to implement control during reading the moves and instinct if the planned beta does not work on the attempt :)
Awesome video man! Really clear examples of the differences between those styles
I can't figure out which one I am more biased towards because I tend to do both quite a bit.
Very good video and channel thanks! Climbing technique info is very important and useful
Sometimes I find problems that I cannot do if I try to think how my body should be in order to get trough them, but just stopping thinking and letting my body solve the problem works perfectly.
Great insights! I like the blend but more so the awareness of both styles and when I am one or the other.
Aren't we all instinct climbers as long as we don't face an issue? I always thought it was normal to have a quick look jump on and try what feels naturally and only if it doesn't work i swap into a "control climber" mindset - the more I learn when figuring stuff out the more I can do instinctively obviously
Isn't that just the normal approach to learning in general? Who is going to be a controlled climber on an indoor V1 or V2?
To practice being a controlled climber
I'm likely not as good a climber as you, but using control on easy routes for a warm up and cool down has helped me develop my decision making and instincts on harder routes.
So to answer your question, me!
@@jfat4 But isn't that just practicing? You are making a concious decision to do that.
To be fair the point I am trying to make is not that he is wrong with the general idea, but I am questioning whether in real life either one extreme actually exists.
Another example would be the following scenario. An instinct based climber according to this video should just jump on the wall and see how it goes. But nobody really does that on their highest grade everybody looks at the wall and the holds beforehand thinking about a beta. It's just that their mindest is to throw the beta away as soon as something looks more inviting when they are one the wall.
In comparison a controlled climber trying the exact same beta would struggle much longer in the "bad" position before deciding to go for another hold.
But if the extremes were real the instinct based climber wouldn't look at the route at all and the controlled climber would just give up, get off the wall and start over by thinking about the right beta from the ground.
Therefore I am question why this video exists cause the only advice is "try to climb more like both" when in reality everybody already does. I also don't think that his climbing representation of how each style of climber climbs is accurate. Why? Well the first climber he showed had a dynamic approach to the route while the second had a static approach - so he basically just showed the different mindset of a dynamic climber and a static climber.
An instinct based climber who prefers static climbing could choose to do the route of the second climber when just thrown on the wall so to me this whole video idea seems really weird.
My problem is I climb controlled, but due to growing up as an elite gymnast, when I climb controlled, people think I am climbing uncontrolled with gut instinct as what is a natural movement for me seems to be un natural to most climbers/people I meet.
What I see as a 100% repeatable movement is a risky move to others. No 2 people are the same.
So how do you decide if they are climbing analytically or gut feeling unless you portray your own skills onto them rather than basing it off the specific climbers abilitys
honestly it looks mostly like the comparison is 'climber has beta' or 'onsight/flash' vs 'climber doesn't have beta' or 'redpoint/send'. I understand the distinction you're going for, but I don't think the climbing footage really reflects it accurately. Ultimately, instinct is trained, so different people will have different instincts given a specific problem.
I agree with you in my opinion the climber comparison looks more like Climber A: dynamic climber; Climber B: static climber
Cause someone who prefers a static climb would choose to do so even if just thrown on the wall with no beta. Or in other words a static climber climbing based on instincts will still be a static climber.
The idea that instinct based climbing and controlled climbing exists is kind of true. But in my opinion in climbing neither extreme really exists people are always somewhere in between.
@@Dom-cq8pw I get the feeling that every advanced climber is both. Rarely have I seen someone climbing higher than V5 climb a boulder without figuring out the sequence first, it's just something beginners don't do because they don't have intuition about which combination of holds requires which movement. So, I think that every climber becomes more of an analytical climber as he progesses through the grades and only switches to the instinctual style if he encounters a move which he read wrong, as once you are on the wall it is way easier to figure out how something is supposed to be climbed. Either this or during warm up where problems are so easy that not much thought has to be given to them.
This is so informative! thanks for the detailed comparisons
Beautifully done!
Great video!! I love Bruce Lee
This video is masterful
Instinct and flow are more enjoyable. It's the same reason why I prefer route climbing to Bouldering. When climbing 60 foot routes for the first time, you can't really analyze like you can on a boulder. I typically get a general Idea of the flow of the whole route looking for the crux, and spending most of my "control" and analysis on that section. After climbing it once, I like to climb it again to clean up any movements I felt I made a mistake on. Right before the second go I'll usually visualize just the areas that didn't feel smooth.
Deep af. Must-watch content. Always.
im definitely an instinct climber, i would say the biggest place i suffer is i can't read a route if it has a move im not familiar with or dont see often
I’m definitely still in my early months of climbing, and feel like I’m between the two, but only getting the negatives haha
SICK VIDEO TOTALLY DIGGED IT
I know which side I am leaning to. And I know what side I should be praticing more. I am redpointing a 30-move route and there is a section I still cannot remember. I know I am going through it in at least 3 different ways but I am unable to decide in advance which one I will be using and I am still unsure which one is the safest or which one is the most energy efficient. Definetly need to work on my "control" game.
This is brilliant!
Top, as usual. Thanks
Well put, sensei!
That quote from Bruce Lee is pretty much how I work!
Being a new climber (only been to the gym 7 times to date, twice of which were half trips) I'm already sending some 5.9's. Sometimes when someone is giving me advice or helping my beta I'll ask them if they ever see people do "XYZ" and they say that they haven't ever seen anyone use that grip or do that thing I described. So it's kindof cool that I'm already climbing in an effective, yet super unique way!
It depends on the risk involved. I generally enjoy the instictive way of doing things more but it's important to be able to switch to a more controlled approach for alpine lead climbing.
Could u do a video on how to implement a more control style of climbing as a beginners?
For me it helped me to read the start - what is the first handhold to move to and with what hand.
Also I try to identify the hardest part of the route and try to come up with an idea how to climb it.
More than that I mostly can not remember anyway and I need to climb to start to remember details.
I try to apply the rough bets and if it works and finish the route, I think about what felt wonky (like moving a weighted foot, a desperate reach, a barndoor) and look at those parts again and what I could do instead.
If my beta doesn't work, I need to analyze anyway.
We are a group of 3 people. We keep quiet through other people's first attempts mostly. Normally then we start to analyze together and give feedback etc..
For me it really helps to repeat climbs (especially easier ones) until I have a beta that has no or very few flaws. It is amazing how much easier a climb can get if you keep working on it. The improvements you implement there you might learn and apply on another climbs.
One thing we also do is filming each other. The memory of climbing a route is sometimes completely different from what actually went down :D.
All the best!
Do you have any tips?
Awesome video. Btw, Discard not disgard.
Liked for the Bruce Lee philosophy! Awesome
Thanks for the vid man!
Great stuff sir
Wow - like this one a lot!
I am definitively control 🙂 . And I would like to switch 🙂 . Interesting video 👍
Awesome video, it's important to internalise your message. I appreciate your hard work!
I think I climb more controlled when something is hard for me and more instinctual when it’s easy and/or familiar
awesome video!
Is this Pipeworks in Sac?
Indeed :-)
Thanks for the vid, and lots of great info. I would add a few things. This guy almost entirely climbs 'control', even in his examples of 'instinct', he's still climbing too slow to be considered instinctual. Watching an instinctual climber, a lot of people will say they dance, bounce, and swing their way up a wall, much like a monkey does. A 'control' climber is more akin to a bear climbing a wall, taking lots of time to get their feet set right and test their weight before going for a moderate distance hold, which is neither here nor there. Lastly, one of the cons to 'instinctual' climbing is that in the process of really committing for each move, you end up taking some more dramatic falls and banging a hand or arm every once in a while. That's also the main and only pro for the 'control' climbers in my opinion, that they fall less frequently and with less injuries. Needless to say, a lot of dynamic climbers are more artsy or live for the day types, and static climbers are more analytic or plan for tomorrow types.
i find its not a question of which are you, but rather a little bit from group A and a bit from group B.
I find myself going to the wall and thinking, ok what mood am I in? what amount of instinct or control do i need for this problem?
Thanks, good vid
great video
What about ultra instinct climbers
"monkey climbers" tuff climbs will eventually require technique aka control
this is soooooo cool!!!
great vid
I tend to go with Instinct when bouldering and control when sport climbing. Examples on real rock could have be valuable
The first time I ussualy climb a route based on instinct for the first few tries and once I've done it and or am not making progress with climbing it based on instinct I look for a controlled beta
can we also call this strenght climbing vs technique climbing?
I realise how bad I am as an instinct climber.... :(
Check the girl falling at 3:58
Be water my friend
Great video but it would have been even better on Enter the Dragon to demonstrate.
Instinct: Sloppy climbing
Control: Good climbing.
It's bad vs good climbing.
not true. of course instinct sometimes results in not the "intended" beta (even tho I hate that term, as it is completely irrelevant in the creative and free sport of climbing), but it doesnt mean the climbers uses less perfect technique.
and instinct also usually results in a beta that fits YOU and YOUR style best.
nothing to do with being sloppy
I'm Instinctual.
If you're not strong enough, you should train your footwork. It helps a lot. Trust me
I don’t think you can really show instinct because it’s too subjective. You’re instinct is different from another’s.
im more like a instinct person but i want to be a control climber
Discard*
Instinct on the wall, Control off.
Im a creative
What if I would instinctually go for the knee bar in the orange climb xD
These videos are good I just get so bored 2 minutes in.
no style chosen, I'd probably just fall
im gonna say im an instinctual one
🙏
Mostly creative, I see the beta the route setters wants me to do and I take it as a challenge NOT to do it the way they want.
Control is where anime scenes thrive in.
Old Chinese saying: 取其精华去其糟粕为我所用
Be like water
easiest v5s in the game
This is kind of silly, most people are going to be a mixture of both.
This is pretty half baked, and I really don't think this what bruce was talking about.