The incredibly silly origin story of Taekwondo forms
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- Опубликовано: 7 янв 2022
- The link between shotokan karate and Taekwondo. Why both styles use the same movements in their forms. And the strange reason why the movements of Taekwondo’s poomse are in a different order than the same movements from the kata of shotokan karate.
I’m 43 years old. In my youth, I spent many years practicing Taekwondo and Shotokan karate at the same. The more I learned about each martial art, the more I could see how connected they were. It wasn’t until years later that I studied the history of the Japanese occupation of Korea, which was ultimately the historical precedent for integrating Japanese kata into the Korean national martial of Taekwondo when it was finally codified as a unique fighting style and combat sport in 1955.
To anyone who has practiced the forms of both arts, the connection should be obvious. But the main reason for the differences might surprise you.
Since transitioning to professional combat sports nearly 20 years ago, I haven’t kept up with the forms of either style. So, please leave as many pedantic comments as possible about how a Taekwondo black belt should be ashamed for not remembering the exact order of the movements of even the first poomse. This would be much appreciated. Thanks!
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Ramsey Dewey is an MMA coach and fight commentator, and occasional musician based in Shanghai, China.
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BJJ’s not a cult! My professor and teammates told me so! They also told me my wife and family are keeping me from enlightenment.
Omg this is amazing😂
BJJ is too a cult. That's what they told me at Crossfit.
Sure! lol
Very true, leave your family
I used to share dojo space with a TKD club. A rare case of the guy running openly telling his students that their martial art was derived from mine.
Invited me to be a guest examiner at their gradings, too
A humble dude thats cool
correct, but then where your matial art was derived from?
@@andreainzaghi7373 Well, my teacher was Andre Bertel, his was Asai Tetsuhiko, his was Nakayama Masatoshi (Nakayama & Funakoshi Gigo heavily chanted the style based on then current sport science, & integration of various Japanese concepts), his teacher was Funakoshi Gichen, his teachers were Izato Anko & Itosu Anko in the Shuri-te & Tomari-Te styles, things go back through Sakugawa Kangu, & Koso Kun, but records get more sparse at that point. There seems to be a blending of the various Okinawan Tou-de with Shorinji-Kempo from China, & then you get back into legend regarding Bodhidharma visiting from China & teaching the monks at Shorin martial arts because they lacked physical discipline.
I think that covers the general line of derivation
I mean, it's right there in the Wikipedia page on Taekwondo, so it's quite literally a secret only to people who won't spend 5 munites researching their style. Which is a weird lack of interest for someone who dedicates hours upon hours actually training the thing
@@wintyrqueen LOL schooled
I find the origins of traditional martial art forms interesting. Taekwondo took from karate, karate came from Okinawa, and they made it from Chinese martial arts (Kung fu.) Karate was also a blend of southeast Asian martial arts like Kali. What goes around comes around, there is nothing new under the sun. Styles and forms are not as important as the athletic execution of movement.
Agreed. Ya, read somewhere that in Okinawa they had Te. Just a hand style, but when northerners came and got mean, a buddhist monk from china in the area felt bad for them, so taught them just the quickest and hardest hitting techniques of his style, which became karate. No ones sure if that the true story, but many people use it. Styles are continuously changing, and it is interesting how even some Sambo gyms will have different strengths and training than others. Some places will have guys that can throw with pro judoka, others will have incredible wrestlers, and some will have kickboxing as there base, while others will throw the kicks out, and just do boxing. Unfortunately modern fighters and events have influenced many gyms from what iv heard of. Hats off and respect to the ones that keep the grappling well rounded, and what some would call traditional.
@@Xzontyr well said
I think it's just that the same weapon drills traveled from mainland China to Taiwan and southeast Asia at the same time. Okinawans were studying in Taiwan mostly I think. Weapons included. So it's not as much as blended with Kali rather they share one source.
Don’t forget savate
@@amazed2341 i ma agree with you
What'll really blow your mind is that Shotokan's kata are already slightly remixed versions of prior kata from his shuri-te teachers. The heian series is derived from the older (and still extant) pinan series, with significant, although not massive, alterations.
and pinan katas derived from kusanku
@@martinnvillarreal not just Kusanku. Chinto, Jion, Bassai… the Pinan were a summing up of the kata that came before Itosu’s time.
And there is more complications to that, because not all katas from Shotokan came from Shuri-te.
Gishin Funakoshi used to send several of his students to learn kata from his friend, Kenwa Mabuni, that pretty much was the go-to guy when the subject is kata and their applications. Mabuni have a collection of katas from his previous teaches and from his friends, he had learned kata from the Anko brothers that Funakoshi didn't (that can be either because Funakoshi stopped to learn before they decided to teach him or because they created the kata after him stopping training with them), plus katas from Higashiona, Aragaki and Go Kenki and some kata that he created.
Nijushiho (Niseishi) and Unsu (Unshu) came from Aragaki. Meikyo is a collection of the Rohai series (Shodan, Nidan and Sandan) from the Anko brothers.
The Empi (Wanshu), Funakoshi learned while working at Tomari Elementary school in Okinawa from a Tomari-te teacher.
And also there are katas created inside Shotokan, like Sochin and Wankan. There are katas with older origins with the same name, but analyzing them using cladistics, they don't share anything in common, neither the path or the sequence of the movements. (It's possible to find older examples, like Unshu/Unsu, there is two distinct kata with the same name but completely different, one came from Aragaki and its practiced on Shiro-ryu and Shotokan, and the other one comes from Tomari region and is practiced in some styles derived from Tomari-te).
All the katas with older origins were changed by Funakoshi son, Nakayama and Kanazawa, and to this day are the version done on Shotokan (well, there was some small changes, but cladistically they are very small that those kata are pretty much the same since those 3 changed them).
So the reality it's that is even harder to track things down!
As a undergraduate biologist and a karate practitioner kata enthusiast that likes to study differences between versions of kata (yeah, I know, I'm a big nerd), I think cladistics are very important to study kata historically. All versions we currently have are current, modern version, it just happens that some contains more older features. That means even though a kata have a lot of older features, it is still a different kata than the "oldest/original version".
Cladistics says that it's possible to classify groups based on a common ancestry. If a certain characteristic is similar on most living variations, that has a great chance to be a older characteristics, because it's harder to happen that the same characteristic convergent-evolved in many ramifications of the evolution tree (it can happen, but is less probable than to be a older characteristic). A good biological example if that almost all species of frogs are born as a tadpole and then changes to be a full grown frog, there is only a few species that born already as a mini-frog and just grows to adulthood, so born as a tadpole have a almost certainly a older characteristic. Another one are those "living fossils" animals, they look and seen to behave just like old fossil animals, but they have small changes on behavior and usually a good amount of change in their genetic material that clearly they are not the same species as the fossils found.
The same concepts can be used to study anything that changes over time, like kata, languages, etc.
Again, not true. Itosu, Funakoshi's teacher, created the Pinans. Heian is the Japanese pronunciation the character for Pinan.
They are the same!
The pronunciation differs, depending, on whether you are using the Okinawan language or Japanese. The meaning changes slightly as well.
In Japanese it means something like peace, like, ' peaceful mind'.
In the Okinawan language it means something like 'safety', like 'safe passage'.
The meanings of both terms are related but have small, significant, differences. Those differences only become apparent if someone conversant in both languages points them out.
@@DavidBarnwell876tkdja It's not about the word; the actual movements of pinan and heian katas are different (as well as, in some instances, their order; heian shodan comes from pinan nidan, for instance)
For my Taekwondo black belt exam, nothing was as important as the forms. EVEN HOW GOOD I WAS AS A FIGHTER, did not really matter, compared to the all important Pumsae. "OH! He can do Pumsae number 10!!! He is enlightened!!!!1". I then proceeded to go into mixed martial arts, where I subsequently got my ass handed to me on a platter.
MMA training eventually helped me win a national medal in Taekwondo. Imagine that.
I interpret Kata as the same as drills in boxing. It helps you get the correct form but without sparring and Kumite it would be akin to just learning a certain style of dance.
@@haroldcruz8550 If it was the same as "shadow boxing", why is it a pre-defined set of movements, and not shadow boxing?
@@henrikg1388 If you're a complete beginner your boxing drills will be predefined. Basic boxing combinations and footwork are sort of predefined set of movements.
@@haroldcruz8550 To some degree, but not in general. That is not what I have seen in my years of (kick-)boxing anyway. Frankly, there is a huge difference between shadow boxing and kata/forms.
There is certainly no requirement to show off a pre-defined set of motions to get a boxing black belt. 😀
Shadow boxing is just a way to fight an imaginary foe, and as a drill it works very good. There is no formalization at all. You just cannot compare the two.
@@henrikg1388 What I am trying to point out is the purpose of the Kata is the same as the purpose of boxing drills. What most traditional martial arts instructors or schools (most not all) mistake is to place too much emphasis on Kata. Do martial artists still have to do Kata? yes, much like even champion pro boxers still do drills.
If anyone is interested in reading about the actual history of Taekwondo, not the odd mythology fed by the current Taekwondo organizations, there is a book called A Killing Art: The Story of Tae Kwon Do by Alex Gillis which goes into how General Choi gathered Korean Karate practitioners and founded the style, and how it came to be as we see it today.
Well worth a read if you are at all interested in the subject!
I read it almost 4 years ago shortly after I started my Tae Kwon Do training.
Great book!!
a must read
@@MaharlikaAWA
I mean he wasn't so much the founder as he was the guy who went to the national SK government with the idea and roped all the other people into it. The stylistic founder's were Korean Karateka who adapted Shotokan into early TKD. I'm not even sure if General Choi did taekwondo himself (though he was an honorary 10th degree), I can't remember if he was a practioner or just the middleman.
But it's easier to just say he's a founder haha
@@MaharlikaAWA
That sounds about right, the legit martial artists were the people under him who spent years changing Karate into a new style to claim as Korean. Reading about the early conditioning they used for Taekwondo is pretty crazy, I'm very much not surprised they were capable of aerial kicks people hadn't really seen before, whether it was practical or not they did definitely managed to create something eye-catching.
I'm actually sad how Taekwondo has evolved into something so unrepresentative of what it originally was just so it could become an Olympic sport. Power-era Taekwondo was an interesting take on Martial Art's that could definitely be effective. Especially because many of the Korean teacher's were also really into Judo among other Martial Art's, and so tended to give a more complete education than might be expected.
As someone who started tkd 2yrs ago, memorizing the first 5 forms was everything you'll ever do as a begginer aside from kicking drills and the insane stretching routine. This is actually making sense from what i've been doing and now im a subscriber
Welcome to team Ramsey! Some of the best martial arts content on RUclips by far.
How’s the black belt feeling:S
Most modern TKD schools won't even do focused stretching in my experience, they do a bit at the start and end of a session, but this isn't sufficient to build proper flexibility for high kicks because you need a stretching routine to do everyday that works on getting you the splits. It works for kids and younger people, but good luck building the necessary flexibility as an adult unless you train by yourself. The same goes for kicking drills as well, if you want to get really good kicks, you need to train on your own time in a way that most school's don't seem to teach you. The power-era of Taekwondo, some 20 years ago or more, did actually heavily focus on these things by and large, which is why you saw way more proficient kickers more frequently from the old-school taekwondo school's.
This is the same for most martial arts really, much like BJJ doesn't really do proper physical conditioning compared to wrestling. My experience with Shotokan Karate was very similar to TKD as well. This obviously depends on the school, but in my experience if you want to be in fighting condition, you need to focus on self education.
When I started TKD we also had to memorize all this insane information for grading, like we were taking an exam on fake TKD history haha.
@@AveSicarius I agree. Just like any other thing in life, you get out what you put in. In the case of martial arts, it’s generally easy to see which students have devoted extra time to training from the ones that don’t.
@@LordFarquaad35
I think that's an element of it, to truly excel at anything you have to be a little obsessed, and the people I knew who were better martial artists or/and fighters were always training in their off time.
But even beyond that, I think most martial arts schools don't teach the proper physical components for flexibility and strength, most likely because this wasn't something that's exactly common knowledge until relatively in regards to giving proper instruction and programming, but also just because instructor's tend to hyperfocus on technique.
Competitive sports gym's are better in this regard, but still, I know many Muay Thai guys who are only flexible because they started young and at a young age you can basically kick high without stretching, continue that training for a few years and the flexibility doesn't fade. For adults who started later in life flexibility is a huge problem, and high kicking is basically off limits, which isn't really acceptable given that it only takes a year or two of training to achieve sufficient flexibility for headkicks at most. I've trained Martial Art's in multiple different country's, and the same issues are there worldwide in the vast majority of school's. I've trained with like two people who were giving out legit advice for beginners on flexibility and strength (as in physically met, the online martial arts community has a bunch of information), which is pretty crazy. The rest seemed to expect people to be able to headkick eventually if they just kept at it, which is an odd view when you need to incorporate multiple kinds of stretching (i.e. isometric, dynamic, weighted/loaded, etc) to be a proficient kicker, or just to be capable of moving somewhat freely throughout a full ROM.
Flexibility as a whole demands a kind of attention many people aren't willing to give unless they make it a habit (i.e. you need to stretch everyday really and spend at least 30 minutes to an hour on it to see any kind of reasonable progress). If you train 3-4 times a week even a 15-20 minute post-training stretch led by the instructor could be massively beneficially. Strength and conditioning also require you to invest time and effort, strength training for at least 6-7 hours a week is on the low end if you want to get significantly stronger (i.e. deadlifting or squatting
I would say this is only partly correct; I'm pretty sure that the forms are based on the eight trigrams that are common in eastern philosophy/mysticism (such as Taoism.) This is why there's eight taegeuk poomsae. If this was solely a reference to the Korean flag (which has the first four trigrams), there probably would only be four.
Exactly. Dewey is coming across a someone ignorant and disrespectful.
You simply don't live under an increasingly militaristic and brutal Empire for 40 years and not have extensive cultural diffusion. There's an entrenched TKD mentality out there that not only denies history, but promotes a mythology where Korean martial masters used TKD to fight the occupation, and never mind it was only American and Soviet armies that forced the Japanese out of the Korean peninsula, establishing the North and South division that exists today.
Glad someone with a following finally said it! You realize though the backlash of this will be somewhere between a dozen comments from angry TKD students and South Korea declaring war on this video, ha.
Hahahaha! Yep. I actually live in the Korea-town neighborhood of Shanghai. My neighbors are going to giving me the side eye.
Taekwondo instructor here.
1. yes, taekwondo started as a rebrand of shotokan karate at the end of WWII. After being oppressed by the Japanese, most Korean karate instructors didn't want to teach Japanese martial arts. So they created a copycat. From the 70s onwards it eventually spinoff into its own thing.
It's different now from Shotokan, though you can still trace it easily to karate by looking at the fundamental techniques and training methods.
It's not a very different process from what happened with most martial arts, including Brazilian jiu-jitsu: At their root most martial arts are spinoffs of others that came before them and their founders don't like to talk about its not so glorious beginnings - or actually distorce the facts make it look better.
2. forms are useful in a few training situations: they act as a repository of knowledge - each poomsae will hold the correct order by which techniques need to be learned by students. Kind of a curriculum that's easy to memorize. They are also a good solo exercise for coordination and pleasant to practice in some situations like end of sports seasons when you want athletes to keep active and yet relax a bit.
Although I think a lot of techniques in the forms are rubbish for self-defence, some however are actually good and yet overlooked in many more modern self defense systems. So in a way It's nice to have these sets in memory to have a mental picture of the Taekwondo toolset.
Example: I can easily remember what exact fundamental techniques and training methods a blue belt in Taekwondo needs, by just remembering all the forms that build up to his grade level (would be much harder to do that without using muscle memory). Where in other martial arts like jiu jitsu, the curriculum is all over the place, with most schools doing their own things and often the instructor not having a consistent direction.
3. lazy/commercial instructors will put a lot of emphasis on form training because it's mostly easy and profitable. One can easily pack a class of 30 people with little oversight on each student, teach forms and get them to pay for belt promotions afterwards. It's an awful situation, but by far not exclusive to taekwondo - you'll see this crap happen on all traditional martial arts. Luckily, not all instructors do that.
Over the years I've seen the most shitty commercial practices in all the martial arts I had contact with, this was just another technique to cash-in.
4. So, don't bash taekwondo too hard. In martial arts everyone needs a starting point martial art and eventually to start cross training to have any sort of self defense capabilities. Taekwondo and Karate are in my opinion a good starting points because they demand higher levels of coordination and physical capacity (flexibility, speed, coordination, agility) than the mixed systems on average - just don't stay doing that by itself for too long before starting to practice other martial arts (specially grappling arts - which Taekwondo is not).
5. And as always, look for good instructor. It doesn't matter if its Taekwondo, Jiujitsu, Karate, Muay Thai... if you get into a school where the instructor doesn't explain things, doesn't go into detail on what he's explaining and is always making excuses to make you leave additional cash on the table - your martial arts experience will be crap regardless of what you are learning.
Funny I recently went to give introductory session at a Taekwondo academy head instructor been training for 20+ years tells me that there is a branch of Taekwondo having grappling as a part of it LOL. Now I might be a blue belt at BJJ but have been doing BJJ & grappling for 4+ years never heard of the name he told that day. Dude was probably trying to keep his students with him LMAO
In what martial arts do you more commonly find quality instruction though?
@@danythegrappler I could be wrong but maybe he was talking about hapkido? Either ways, that is not on the same level as bjj
When I was 12 years old and living in Bangkok, I took up TKD from a Mr. Kim. That was in 1970. Hard to recognize what I learned then to what I see today.
@@danythegrappler Oh, he might be talking about Taekkyeon(택견). Although the common misconception is that Taekkyeon is the predecessor to Taekwondo, because they both emphasize kicks and the name sounds somewhat similar, but in reality they are not related at all. Taekkyeon is an actually traditional Korean martial art(despite its history being somewhat short) so it cannot be related to Taekwondo as Taekwondo derives from Karate. Taekkyeon sparring is focused on making your opponent fall, so naturally there is some standing grappling involved, but it never goes to the ground as the rules forbid you from attacking the opponent when he is on the ground. It is kind of like Tai Chi push hands, except that you're allowed to kick. So, yes there is a Korean martial art that has grappling in it but it is not a different branch of Taekwondo, and the grappling is limited to standing positions. On a side note, Taekkyeon has quite a few disciplines that overlap with Capoeira, so a few Capoeira practitioners tried entering a Taekkyeon tournament as a form of cultural exchange. I'll link it below so you can check it out, it's quite interesting. ruclips.net/video/WnaphcOXras/видео.html
I like ITF forms better, they derive from shotokan as well but I think they are a bit more pretty. It's cool that the names are of korean personalities and historical events.
Very powerful forms. I've moved around alot and practiced many martial arts, but have continued to practice the ITF forms for 30 years. Although I look at them differently and have a different understanding of them from practice in other martial arts
ITF practitioner here. Formerly a Tang Soo Do student a long time ago. So I know both Shotokan forms up through Bassai, and ITF forms through Gae Beak. Plus Koryo, but that is a quirk of the school I go to that we do some WT forms, too.
@@martintanz9098 i know them from chon ji to moon mu
@@MaharlikaAWA Fortunately not all ITF schools practice their forms with the sine wave.
@@martintanz9098 Exactly. I learned at a school that did ITF forms but we never did the sine wave stuff. I never even heard of it until years after I had moved on. What a load of poo....bouncing up and down for forward punching power.
I took tkd as a teenager and never understood why we did forms. 30 years later got my answer. Thanks
Recently made a video about Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo touching on some of this...a lot of people who practice these arts have no idea about the histories. Thanks for sharing
Loved my teachers back then.
Not only did they teach us that it was based on shotakan.
...
But also when we did our moves (sry. Second language 😅),
they also told us "listen. You need that stuff to get the belts. Never use it when in danger." 😂
Seriously miss my old teachers.
The "never use it when in danger" side probably means whatever original purpose it served for practice has been lost into a pretty dance routine.
Oh god, if my shotokan sensei was like that, i'd probably not have given up karate for muay thai lmao
instead they all tend to say that kata is the most important part of karate and stuff like that
pain
@@Zraknul you are correct on that one 😄
Good thing is they also taught us things that had a higher chance of survival, for the ones that stayed after the regular practice round.
Our teachers learned a couple of martial arts in their time.
And since they were all tough, bald slavs ( looked like russian mafia thugs straight out of a movie 😂) , i think all of them did kickboxing as well 😅
@@lucascastro2802 i do have to say that i was really, really lucky with the teachers i got. They demystified a lot. Also made sure we understood how to deescalate and if not possible, how to handle yourself legally if you defend yourself or someone else.
Because at least in my country,
you can still get sentenced,
if you, as someone who has martial arts training didnt use the minimal amount of force necessary or if you didnt give the aggressor enough opportunities to stop the fight.
Big blocking movement teach you the feeling you need to make solid smaller blocks. I use shortened versions of my karate blocks when I spar Thai boxers and regular boxers. TKD doesn’t understand the blocks so they don’t teach them properly.
For a brief period of time in the early 90s I served as the education director for the West Coast Regional Taekwondo Association of the WTF. The history was one of the things that I commonly taught. Then author Harry Cook wrote pretty much the ultimate history of Shotokan karate. In it he names and sites all of the references of how karate was taken from University Shotokan clubs by Korean students back to their native Korea. It was then altered with the exception of three schools who maintains the Shotokan forms and retained the name Tang Soo Do, bucking the Korean nationalist political pressure.
Tang Soo do means Chinese fist tho
@@B..B.yes, it does. And before 1936, "karate" meant "China Hand" before they changed the Kanji on Oct 25th that year.
Taekwondo descended from Tang Soo Do which draws elements from Shotokan, Northern Kung Fu, and Taekkyon. The 9 Kwans composed the lineages of Tang Soo Do. Eventually the Kwans were consolidated into the main Taekwondo organization that developed the style we see today
Hi, I'm curious about you mentioning the Kwans. Reason is, when I was young I did TKD for a few years at a class in Greater London that was Moo Duk Kwan and wondered if this was related to the Kwan you mentioned in your original comment?
@@restojon1 it is relayed. Not sure if Moo Duk Kwan is one of the 9 kwans or a form of Su Bak Do, but Moo Duk Kwan is distinctly different from Tang Soo Do
Tang soo do came from a mostly Korean art called soo Bak. Period . They took elements from shotokan Kata.and northern Chinese art from the tang dynasty. And the northern Chinese took from the Koreans.
@@jerrywoods4066actual tang soo do is mostly just shotokan karate even the early forms were karate forms. The higher for s were rarely taught at all like taek kuk kwon(taiji Quan) sorim jang kwon(Shaolin long fist aka jie Quan) and dham toi(tan tui).
It wasn't til hwang kee invented soo bakh do did any kung fu Influence was taught.
@@jerrywoods4066also tang soo do has nothing to do with the tang dyasty......the word tang was just a generic term for china in Korea at the time.....
It is true. If you read the Encyclopaedia of Taekwondo which has been written by the founder of TKD himself, General Choi Hong Hi, it is obvious that traditional Taekwondo and its forms have been largely based off Shotokan Karate Forms.
And it is also true that the movements in Karate Forms (& Kung Fu Forms) are actually not blocks and punches, as that would be obviously be very ineffective, they are mostly supposed to be stand up grappling techniques.
However another rather disappointing piece of information that you'll recieve reading the Encyclopaedia would be that Choi Hong Hi himself didn't actually know this. He himself believed that the movements from the forms are blocks and punches and therefore he also created the original TKD forms based off this incorrect assumption.
That unfortunately means that the movements in TKD forms are indeed merely supposed to be punches and blocks.
Gen Choi was a 2nd dan Shotokan under Gichin Funakoshi.
Same for Shotokan, sadly. It is unknown where down the line of transmission, some important master didn't know the application, but it was certainly his own master's fault for not teaching it to him. It'l all a nonsensical Confucian concept spread over all Asia, that you HAVE to learn for yourself, and that not even to contest, mind you, but to just ASK QUESTIONS to your teacher is "disrespectful". Yeah, so here we go
It's your assumption that Gen Choi did not know that. If you use the actual applications for the blocks, etc, you find that the patterns and techniques ALL have a logical flow.
Now, how would that be possible if Gen Choi did not know how those techniques ACTUALLY worked?
Also, changes were made to the Shotokan techniques. ITF does not use the Shotokan meyhod of stacking blocks, for example.
Our methods are closer to those of Kalaripayatt and Matsubishi Ryu Karate.
They serve the same purpose as Shotokan stacking, namely deflecting an attack via the palm, forearm or elbow of the blocking hand. Or covering an attack via the forearm of the blocking hand.
That initial action is then followed, in the most basic application by the defender grabbing hold of the attacker with the non blocking hand and striking or framing or taking him down using the 'blocking' hand.
The ITF block stacking still does all of that and it's crossed arms also provide superior protection in case the defender messes up the deflection action.
So, how could Gen Choi have made those changes without being aware of the purposes of the blocks? I think he was well aware of their function. I think he did not share that knowledge for some unknown reason.
There's evidence for this in his naming of the ITF movement that Westerners know as 'Sine Wave'. It's called that in the English translation of the Korean version of the ITF Encyclopedia. It's not called that in the Korean version.
In the Korean version it's called 'bow movement', as in, the movement resembles a gentle upward curve similar to that seen on the back of a recurved, Mongolian, bow.
The term 'sine wave' is just used as a metaphor to put a familiar and explanatory, image in the heads of Westerners. But, some have taken the name to suggest that Gen Choi was talking about trig identities. He was not. It's just a metaphor.
He did play things very close to the vest, sometimes. It's most likely that he wanted to hide some aspects of TKD, for unknown reasons.
If that wasn't the case..the forms would remain an incomprehensible stew even after you know how the techniques were applied in Chinese arts.
But, they are not. Movement, 2 and 3 and 5 and 6 in Toi Gye descend directly from sequences in Xiao Hong Quan, the first Shaolin form.
Though, movement 3 is a dislocation/takedown that is an adaptation of the arm break/takedown seen in Xiao Hong Quan.
The first movement in Ge-Baek is an adaptation of Shaolin sequences as well. A VERY similar technique is seen in the 18 hands of the Lohan form.
Bending ready stance A is used in innumerable Chinese styles as a leg check (Thais use it that way too) AND a foot tackle.
The influences are there. The way the head is positioned in some techniques give you a clue as well. Movement 15 and 33 of Po Eun are, ostensibly twin horizontal elbows that strike attackers on either side of the defender.
BUT the defender whilst executing the 'twin elbow' clearly looks to ONE side. The SAME side with which he is executing a pulling motion with his foot. Pulling motions like that normally mask sweeps or foot tackles.
And that SAME sort of elbow is used in both in Indian and Chinese arts as an initial block from the inside or outside.
The arms are crossed at the wrist. The block with one elbow whilst the hand of the other arm protects your face.
You then latch on to the attacker with that covering hand and strike horizontally with what was, the blocking elbow.
This is easier to do from the outside. In that case, you might cover with one arm..with the other arm bent and in front of your face.
You latch on with the covering arm and pull the attacker whilst striking him with the point of elbow of the arm with was was in front of your face.
While doing all of that you are trying sweep/pull or kick at one of the attacker's supporting legs.
THAT is the reason you are looking in the same direction as the leg you are pulling into closed stance. Because THAT is the direction that contains all of the action!
THE ONLY reason you end up in a close stance in that action is to emphasize the sweeping action of the foot.
I find it hard to believe Gen Choi designed or oversaw the design of that pattern and knew NOTHING about the actions that were occurring within it. That's not, at all, believable.
@@KurtAngle89 I don't think that is the source of it at all. I think a lot of the loss has to do with the occupation of Japan by allied forces after WW II.
MANY Japanese martial art schools were shut down by the occupying authorities.
The ONLY reason Funakoshi was allowed to keep his doors open was that he told the occupying authorities that Karate was focused on making a better person rather than a better fighter.
That's the reason Funakoshi stopped teaching Kobudo. That is the reason present day Shotokan people do not know Kobudo.
Funakoshi HAD to stop teaching that because that would have given the whole game away.
Hard to argue that you're teaching staff or Kama fighting to build a better person.
Perhaps that is one of the reasons he stopped teaching Bunkai as well? Because, he absolutely was teaching it before that.
Funakoshi may have also been genuinely anti fighting at that point too. The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki affected him deeply.
This is the first time I've heard (or read, technically) that the blocks were supposed to be grappling techniques. Can you point me in a direction where I can read more on that? It's got my brain gears moving.
5th Dan Tkd practitioner here. Yep Ramsey is absolutely Correct General Choi was a 2nd Dan in Shotokan when he invented TKD. But the nationalism is doesn't stop with WT but its also in ITF but not only South but North Korea. The Hardest pattern Juche (brought in to appease North korea) is literally the shape of the Bakdau mountains and about the Socialist way of life.
No wonder at my school, it is one of the forms where we don't talk about the meaning.
Don't get me started on Koryo....
Yes, but you are aware that the form Juche replaced, Ko -Dang could NEVER have been taught in North Korea?! You are aware of that?
Ko Dang was the pen name Cho Man Sik. He was a Christian nationalist who fought against the Japanese occupation of Korea and was actively involved in the education of Korean youth.
After WW II the Japanese were forced to quit Korea BUT the country was divided by the victorious allies. The Soviets controlled the North and they had a person, in Kim Il Sung, who was ready to take over and establish North Korea as a client state of the Soviet Union.
The fly in that ointment was Cho Man Sik. He was too well known to be pushed to the sidelines. So, he was made co-ruler of North Korea with Kim Il Sung.
But, that was problematic....
First, Cho had ALWAYS pushed for Korean independence so he was not willing to make North Korea a client of the Soviets.
Second, Cho was a Christian, which would be a problem for ANYONE in an officially communist country. But, it was especially problematic for the CO-LEADER of that country!
Third, Cho and Kim Il Sung did not get along, at all.
Kim Il Sung later had Cho imprisoned under false charges and later executed him just before the cessation of open hostilities at the end of open conflict in the ongoing Korean war.
Now, the form Ko-Dang, was created to honour Cho Man Sik. That's why his pen name is called every-time it is perfumed. He was a heroic man.
The ITF was BROKE AF when Gen Choi introduced TKD to North Korea. The WTF, however, had enormous South Korean govt support.
The ITF needed similar support or it would disappear.
The ITF, as I've said, was hella broke AND Gen Choi also wanted TKD to have a KOREAN base.
He created a Korean art and he wanted Koreans to be continuously involved with it. Those factors necessitated the decision to move the ITF to North Korea.
But that decision to have a base in North Korea meant that the form that honoured Cho Man Sik HAD TO GO!!
No offense to Mr. Cho, but, that form would never have been allowed in a country ruled by Kim Il Sung, who was very much alive at that time.
So, that is the reason that the form, Ko-Dang, was replaced with Juche!
It was done to honour THE NEW HOSTS of ITF TKD in North Korea! It was a simple and quite necessary, political calculus. It's just normal realpolitik.
There was no way around that decision.
taekwondo.fandom.com/wiki/Ko-Dang
@James Lewis (Taekwondragon) Actually General Choi Hong Hi had a 2nd Dan in Karate. So, he was a black belt holder, sir. Not that that matters so much if you're trying to create your own thing. But, yeah it's not in dispute that he was a black belt holder in Karate.
@James Lewis (Taekwondragon) Just say you don't understand the sine wave. It's OK to not understand something. That's fine.
This might be the first RUclips video I have seen where the camera operator is clearly laughing in the background with no attempt to hide it.
Those lines on the Korean flag represent four of the Eight Trigrams (Bagua) which represent the role of Yin and Yang in creating every phenomena in the world. The one with the three unbroken lines is absolute Yang (Heaven/non-material things), and the one with the three broken lines is Yin (Earth/solid matter).
Even that was copied from China, damn. Is there anything original about Korea at all?
Many of the TKD forms are even named after major political figures in Korean nationalist history, and I remember learning that some of the forms were designed so your paces form the Korean letter of the historical name.
There has to be a part 2 of this because in Tang Soo do we where told that some of our Forms came from Shotokan Karate system too
Ooooo… my friend, you need to hear the true origin story of how Tang Soo Do actually IS shotokan karate!
Totally A big rip off! If Motobu Choki seen this or understood this fact! It would be bedlam. But here is the problem how come Grandmaster Hwang Kee didn't want anyone to know 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
Historically speaking the reason for white robes was that white (or undyed) fabric was cheaper and easier to launder than other colours so if you wanted to get everyone dressed the same this was the cheapest way to do it.
The cheapness is also kinda why most sporting uniforms are white. It's cheaper to buy fabric for a separate outfit that you only wear in one part of your life and it's easier to clean said outfit when if get sweaty.
now it's just tough to keep it white! So many of mine are a bit of a shabby grey now...
I think it's very important to note that this is another spot where the ITF style and WT differ in a huge way. The ITF forms do share an influence from Shotokan, but they also carry very specific Taekwondo meanings and stories. The Tul also include every movement for self defense.
If anything, the ITF tul are even closer to shotokan kata than wtf forms are.
@@robcherry4504 The ITF patterns are a catalogue of every motion and move in ITF TKD. WT forms are not based on actual self defense practice.
@@bryanpoole3036 true, just pointing out that for the most part those motions and moves were taken from shotokan (with a few minor differences, most notably in the chambers).
My understanding of wtf forms (and I could be wrong because I don't train wtf) is that they were changed to better reflect techniques used in sparring.
@@robcherry4504 It is absolutely correct that Shotokan/Korean Karate were the biggest influences. Some of the movements came from karate originally, but were modified to have a Korean "flavour" to them.
So I suppose, some of the movements could have potentially come from Shotokan. Certainly the walking stance is a direct adaptation from Shotokan.
Also, I'm not saying you're incorrect, sir. It's very interesting, and not a lot of people have any interest in discussing it! Thank you!
It makes sense that WT style patterns would reflect their sparring...... Originally, the reason for the "no contact" is because, for example the chest target, in WT it's the full size of the chest protector. In many types of ITF TKD, the target is only the solar plexus. So that is why non-contact. There is simply too much danger in sparring full contact with vital point targets.
@@bryanpoole3036 I find it really interesting.
I love hosin sul/applications (bunkai in karate) and the origins in karate give an added resource to look at.
The most fascinating change I find is the chambers. I am pretty sure they were changed purely for aesthetic reasons, but I find them to have great applications compared to the shotokan versions.
I think that some people worry that the closeness of tkd to karate takes something away from it in terms of uniqueness or something, but in my mind it does not. It simply adds to the richness of the art.
I figured this out pretty quickly when I started Tae Kwon Do just under 4 years ago, after studying Tang Soo Do 30 plus years ago. The ITF style forms I was learning seemed familiar to me, so I went and looked up the Tang Soo Do forms and wow, they sure are. Then I did a little research and found out all my TSD forms were basically identical to Shotokan.
The odd thing is, even now, 70 or 80 years on from the founding of Tae Kwon Do, a lot of organizations and teachers don't want to talk about the Karate origins of TKD. And that strikes me as odd for the following reason.
Isn't the truth a better story than a lie?
The truth can be spun thusly. Martial arts originated in China, and ancient Koreans may have practiced martial arts. But over the centuries, that knowledge was forgotten. In the late 19th to early 20th centuries, the Japanese invaded Korea and brought with them, a style of martial arts known as Karate. Interest in martial arts grew, and some Koreans mastered the art of Karate. Others went to Manchuria and studied Chinese Martial Arts.
After the Japanese occupation ended, the Koreans who studied under Japanese masters found themselves cut off culturally, and geographically from their Japanese teachers, and Koreans opened their own Martial arts schools that featured a version of Shotokan, with some Chinese Martial arts also featured. The name given to the art was Tang Soo Do, or way of the China Hand. But a few years later, the Korean war broke out and South Korea found itself at war with China. After the Korean war ended, the South Korean dictatorship found a martial art with its origins in Japanese Karate, with the name Way of the China Hand unacceptable, and sought to come up with something that sounded more indigenous to Korea. And Tae Kwon Do was born.
New forms were created, and the style evolved into its own thing, and eventually spread throughout the world, to the point where it is orders of magnitude more practiced globally than either Japanese and Okinawan Karate or Chinese Kung Fu.
Tang Soo Do (Tang Shou Dao, in Chinese) Tou Te Do (in Japanese, the original name of kara te do)
That is simply the Korean term for karate.
@@RamseyDewey yeah and also karate was also fomerly known as Chinese hand in "Okinawa the birthplace of karate" hahahahah learned from Jesse
South Korea is a Democratic Republic, not a Dictatorship...
@@deangullberry5148 not in the 1950s it wasn't.
@@martintanz9098 Might wanna check your history...
Actually, the first **eight** forms' floor patterns are supposed to be inspired by each of the eight Palgwe/Bagua symbols/trigrams. They don't only use the ones on the South Korean flag, but of course those are included. The core reference is the Chinese Palgwe/Bagua divination/fortune-telling system more than the flag. The original set of beginner forms in TKD was called "Palgwe", too. For the "Taegeuk" (CN: Taichi) forms, they even designed the footwork of the stance transitions to match which lines are broken and which lines are solid in the trigrams.
I make it a point to mention every once in a while to my TKD students that the core techniques in the forms are based on karate forms. I see no reason to hide it -- for me it promotes brotherhood between the two martial arts. Taekwondo, aside from the competition sparring, is basically a highly customized style of karate.
Not original. There were forms before Palgwe. Palgwe were the new forms and Taeguek forms are the new new forms
@@vincevasquez9027 Yes, you're correct.
Before the Palgwae forms were designed, TKD practitioners tended to use the Tangsudo hyeong (slightly modified karate kata) or the O Do Kwan/Chang-Hon/early ITF teul.
That said, for Kukki-Taekwondo, the first set of Yudanja and Palgwae pumse were the first unique compositions for their style of TKD.
Sounds like it boils down to:
Rearrange the blocks, punches, kicks, order them however is preferred - In real application, order kinda takes a backseat, and the "right move" is simply one that works in the moment.
I practiced TKD for 8 years. Realized it was useless by itself when I first ventured to the dark side of MMA and kickboxing, and, like many who make the transition, I abandoned Kata. However, now that I'm older, I've actually repurposed Kata as a way to overexaggerate proper technique, and usually begin my workouts with it as a warm-up. Definitely has its purpose if one is willing to look past the absurd theatrics.
Kata actually gives one great balance and durability, doing kata yourself i think you know the legs and shoulder burns you would get at the end of the day and they help a lot on improving indurance. They also give you proper technique. I've been doing shotokan karate myself for around 4 years and it has helped me a lot in mma mostly from the kicks.
i got 12 forms in my itf arsenal. i many times do those like first with brain and then same form with attitude. That takes about 30 min. and think it's pretty much the best exercise that you can do alone if you are martial arthist. Yes it dosnt replace real sparing or heavybagtraining, but you train many abilitys that are in base. you can do those with power and speed and you can do those also with your level when you get older.
right kata is low impact aerobics for martial sports
There is a huge difference in purpose between Karate and Taekwondo kata. In Taekwondo they are mostly just a repertoire of techniques with very little application potential, where in karate they are self defense manuals : you do this and then this, and if that doesn't work, do this, incorporating angles as to how to position yourself . Much more sophisticated.
@@sassuki This is true, although many modern marital artists who are enamored by MMA refuse to hear it. Virtually every Shotokan practitioner who was placed in a self defense situation where they had to use their skills will tell you that they subconsciously followed kata patterns during such encounters and often had to stop themselves when the natural kata progression led to a crippling or deadly technique.
I'm currently a student in ATA Taekwondo. I also originally took ITF taekwondo over 20 years ago but had to quit prematurely due to finances. I can definitely see the similarities in the poomse and Shotokan Karate. But the ATA forms are "jumbled around" even more than ITF to fit the shape of their Songahm star. I too find the white robes and hierarchy silly, but I'm playing along for now. Testing for 2nd degree later this year. Hahaha.
@@MaharlikaAWA I'm going to stick around and rank up a little farther and join a jiu-jitsu cult next.
I know World Taekwondo and InternationalTF but I First time seeing A.T.A federation how is it deciphered "What does it mean" and Who created it?
@@Venum171 ATA stands for American Taekwondo Association. The founder was Haeng Ung Lee in 1969.
I was a ATA student as well, but back in the 90s, before they really went downhill, and, as much as I dislike the direction that the ATA had taken, their Songahm poomse are second to none. Each coloured belt form has the techniques that are required for that level, and they are just fun to do. 1st dan and blue belt forms are my favourite. The current WTF or whatever they're calling themselves now, forms are pretty boring in comparison.
@@MaharlikaAWA They weren't always like that.
Hi Ramsey,
It is very interesting to see how things grow over time to become what we practice today. The beautiful thing about martial arts is that it is literally living history and culture.
I've been practicing taekwondo for many years and seeing your video pop up in my feed prompted me to talk to my TKD teacher about this. He is 9th Dan grandmaster who is very senior (and famous) in the TKD organisation (was technical director of World Taekwondo, formalised poomsae for competitions, made the whole competition process for tkd from judging, accreditation for referees to how competitions ran among other things) and was actually alive when all of this happened. So he told me a story and some of the reasons behind the development of their patterns. My teacher started learning Taekwondo from Jidokwan school and he said that they were still practicing Karate forms like Bassai (this was in the 50s so you know how old he is!). He explained that this was the leftover stuff from the Japanese occupation of Korea where the Koreans were not allowed to practice their indigenous arts and that they had to practice Japanese martial arts (if they were allowed to practice at all). So when the Korean Taekwondo Association was formed they got all the martial arts schools at the time to submit their own patterns in so that they can formalise Taekwondo patterns (thus Palgwes). At that time each Kwan depending on their background had their own patterns, for example some would have Japanese forms whilst others would have Chinese forms. Another big reason why they developed their own patterns was so that they knew who developed which pattern and for what reason (for example taeguk 1,2 and 3 was developed by one guy which is why they are quite similar and that taeguk 4 is done by a different guy and so on).
My teacher couldn't remember the exact year (because he was serving in the Army and deployed to Vietnam to teach TKD) but he said it was around the late 60s to 70s that they started developing the Taeguk patterns. Again the schools had to come together and submit patterns for selection. One of the reasons for this was that they noticed that the Palgwe forms were not very practical for developing competition technique (stances were too deep etc) and that is why you notice there is walking stance in Taeguk patterns and you learn to combine kicks and punches pretty much straight away in the first few forms in addition to coordination for good punching technique. (Comparison: Palgwe 1 - 3 has only 4 kicks total whereas Taeguk 1 - 3 has 13 kicks total...).
One of my teacher's greatest criticisms of Taekwondo and the organisation are it's politics (I can write even more about the ITF vs WTF stories he has told me.....)........ If you thought the development of their patterns were crazy, wait till you here about the later problems . He told me about all the headaches when he tried to standardise these patterns for competition...... At the time even though everyone was doing the same patterns, each school had a different/unique interpretation and execution of the technique (for example everyone started the upper block in different locations etc). This wouldn't work for competitions because how can you judge a pattern if everyone had a different performance of that pattern? So he had to go through every single technique and pattern and standardise it from where it starts to how it ends to the specific 30 degree angle your foot had to be placed in etc...... you can imagine all the disagreements and disputes that this process would create! Once he completed this task then he had to make the process of how to judge the performance of these patterns and before you know it World Taekwondo was running poomsae competitions! (this didn't happen until the early 2000s.....)
Anyway it was pretty cool to learn about the history of Taekwondo through a living legend! Lucky for me is I get to learn from him everyday :)
Thank you for your video!
Very interesting! Thanks for sharing that!
The amount of like - nearly fascist - Korean nationalism in the origins of Tae Kwon Do is always uncomfortable to think about. Especially when you realize how much actually Korean in origin stuff got left by the wayside during the Unification (Moo Duk Kwan is a great example of the factionalism in that whole period).
Writing on my son’s YT. Started working out with conditioning mostly derived from Kyokushinkai. Found a former US paratrooper/black belt at 13 who taught Shotokan style. Seen literally dozens of world class martial artists from dozens of disciplines. So I have learned to recognize distinguishing features between styles and systems. TKD always looked to me like Shotokan with a few changes. Never started S*** but met my share over decades. A valuable lesson I learned over the years is that the highly skilled have nothing to prove but some mid level practitioners think that they are invincible, especially against say a 160-180 lb middle age guy. But to avoid damage, spare til you can figure out their system. Now look at that system’s competition rules for weakness on the street TKD mandated multiple high kicks per round. Guess what will take out a belligerent mid level practitioner? Counterstrike to the groin. Yes top level players adjust their style in the street but mid level types who start crap in the street seldom notice. Traditional Japanese budo only uses high kicks for flexibility. Because they know that they cannot count on a street opponent to be improperly trained. There are other stylistic tells such as many aikidoka not using atemi to destroy balance etc. But high kicking in combat is wack. Some will see and understand what I am saying. Others will just accuse me of racial prejudice with respect to country of origin etc. But I am only talking about what I have learned over decades studying details of various styles and I never start trouble but I never let myself be pushed around so this is my tested reality and not just a stylistic prejudice.
it's worth also giving a bit of sympathy to the Koreans. I'm not Korean, and I don't intend to speak on their behalf (much less on the behalf of Koreans 75+ years ago), but their nation was devastated by Japanese occupation which sought, among other things, to fully assimilate Korea into Japanese culture by authoritarian force. We most often think of the damage done in war and occupation in terms of loss of life or in economic terms, which can certainly be done with Korea, but there was a very aggressive and intentional attack on Korean culture that lasted decades. Japan went so far as to attempt to ban the Korean language itself. It was that extreme.
I mention this because it's somewhat unsurprising that, in the aftermath of this, the Koreans would attempt to retake their culture and, quite possibly, remove evidence of Japan's undue influence in the region. I always take the side of historical accuracy, even when this does infuriate the people around me, but it doesn't also mean I can't also be empathetic to the reasons why Koreans were motivated to make "silly" decisions with karate.
Most of the early TKD/TSD teachers learned Shotokan under Japanese rule. They wanted to create their own art and so used what they already had.
Yeah. To be honest I'm a bit surprised (and disappointed) in this video, given the generally thoughtful quality of this gentleman's videos.
Well said. I think there are a lot of people are very ignorant when it comes to Korea’s history over the last 100 or so years. The South Korea of the 50’s and 60’s was a poor nation compared to what it is today.
As a Korean, thank you for this thoughtful comment! I think it is important to be objective and see history as it really happened, to not repeat the same mistakes of the past. Korean and Japanese relations have been really poor, but I am hopeful that, with more awareness, which comes from discussions like these, things will improve.
Here in the west, the atrocities that happened in the East, are not talked about enough. People being awful to each other has been a global problem forever, and isn't just an "American problem" or "European Problem", its everywhere man. My Filipino friend tells me all the time, how his grandparents up until their death, were very racist against the Japanese, because of events during WW2. In his own words, no one hates Asians more then other Asians.
Stuart anslow has a series of books called "Chang hon Taekwondo hae sul" which goes into the history of taekwondo and it's formation, as well as show possible applications to the kata/poomsae/tul/hyung movements.
Precedes the "old school perspectives" body of work.
I have been doing tkd for 13 years and your learn something new everyday thanks
Hello Ramsey! Long time lover of your content -- I have some additional information to offer you insofar as the Kukkiwon TKD Taegeuk series of poomsae.
1) In 2022 no instructor with any real knowledge of TKD (Kukki/WT or ITF) should dispute the origins of movement sequences in these patterns. It's blatantly obvious, with General Choi Hong Hi having trained in Shotokan in his early 20s. Japanese / Okinawan karate, Chinese gongfu and Korean gwonbeop are the roots of both ITF and Kukki (WT) style, with Shotokan clearly being the predominant influence. Anyone who still spouts the "discovered paintings in a cave 2000 years old" stuff is being ridiculous, and anyone denying the borrowing of sequences from Shotokan Kata more so.
2) All 8 of the colour belt patterns (Yugeupja) have 3 different side to side sections, not just the first 4. Each trigram (the set of 3 lines comprised of a mix of solid or broken) originates from the I Ching, a Chinese book on divination from the late 9th century BCE.
3) The 4 trigrams on the Republic of Korean flag, starting top left and moving clockwise are: Sky, Water, Earth, Fire. Opposing elements are on opposing corners. The full list of Taegeuk poomsae with their trigrams follows:
태극 일장 Taegeuk Il-Jang - ☰ - Geon 건 / Sky 天 乾
태극 이장 Taegeuk I-Jang - ☱ - Tae 태 / Lake 澤
태극 삼장 Taegeuk Sam-Jang - ☲ - Ri 리 / Fire 火
태극 사장 Taegeuk Sa-Jang - ☳ - Jin 진 / Thunder 雷
태극 오장 Taegeuk O-Jang - ☴ - Son 손 / Wind 風
태극 육장 Taegeuk Yuk-Jang - ☵ - Gam 감 / Water 水
태극 칠장 Taegeuk Chil-Jang - ☶ - Gan 간 / Mountain 山
태극 팔장 Taegeuk Pal-Jang - ☷ - Gon 곤 / Earth 地
4) Each Taegeuk pattern has three different side to side sections linked by a front/back section. Each pair of side to side sections is symmetrical, what you do on one side you will do on the other side. The manner in which you turn from one side to the other side is determined by the trigram associated with the poomsae with a solid line representing a turn initiated with your front foot and a broken line representing a turn initiated with your back foot. The order of turns are read from the bottom up, so to use Taegeuk O-Jang (Taegeuk 5) as an example, the first side to side turn is initiated with the back foot while the final two side to side turns are initiated with the front foot.
5) Yin/Yang being the Chinese name, the red and blue shape in the center of the Republic of Korea's flag is called the Taegeuk, also called Eum/Yang which is linked to Korean Buddhism.
6) The Taegeuk patterns replaced an earlier set of 8 poomsae which were called Palgwae 1 through 8, which also borrowed heavily from Shotkan Karate.
7) While there is no doubt that there was some nationalism baked into the patterns I've always found it more likely that the Korea Taekwondo Association and the Kukkiwon developed the Taegeuk poomsae to be a more straight forward set of patterns which clearly build one upon the other for trainees rather than the somewhat scattershot groupings of techniques in the Palgwae poomsae and Heian kata. Taegeuk 1 is typically used to test from 8th Geup/Grade (yellow belt) up to 7th Geup/Grade and Taegeuk 1 has much simpler technical requirements when compared to Palgwae 1. Students at white belt begin as 10th Geup/Grade and sometimes will learn a basic form of some variety which is not standardized in the Kukkiwon or WT system.
Misc. Notes:
A taekwondo uniform is indeed called a "dobok" but it is pronounced with both "o"s as the same sound. 도복 - “Doh-Bohg”
Taekwondo's first word is not pronounced "thai" as in "Thailand" but rather is closer to "Teyh". 태권도 - “Teyh Gwohn Doh”
The Kukkiwon has standardized all poomsae techniques in order to have one curriculum for forms and parity at competitions -- with Kukki TKD originally being a forced amalgamation of multiple disparate Korean martial arts gyms there were 9 or more different approaches to any given technique. Poomsae technique first position, path, second position, stances, cadences, and technique names have all been modernized though the sequences all remain the same.
Sorry for the small novel. I'm not trying to contradict anything in your video, just adding some further information. If you would like an unfiltered accounting of the actual history of Taekwondo I recommend the book A Killing Art by Alex Gillis which is available on Amazon, also as an audiobook. No bullshit though it does have a slight pro-ITF lean in my opinion. I'm a giant TKD nerd and would love to talk further about anything you may have questions about. Thank you!
But, why would anyone think TKD was 2000 years old anyway? Gen Choi did say he invented TKD in 1955 from an impetus he felt in the '40s. That impetus was due to the personal shame he felt when teaching his soldiers Karate.
He said that TKD is a combination of Shotokan Karate and the Taekkyon he learned as a boy.
In interviews, in TKD Times, I think, he said, "If I hadn't learned Karate I could have never created TaeKwon-Do."
He also said he'd originally wanted to take up boxing because he felt Taekkyon was lacking in hand techniques and a friend of his who studied Karate convinced him to try Karate, instead.
So, the idea that TKD is descended from Karate AND Taekkyon? That isn't a mystery at all. It's common knowledge or it should be.
Love your knowledge and True significant explanation! Amazing, wish someone hade a videos about this!! So more people would have understending the real way of Korea martial art 🇰🇷
@@DavidBarnwell876tkdja it may stem from the very nationalism he referred to, the shame of Taekwondo deriving from the invaders Martial arts and the fact that a lot of people overlook the other indigenous Korean Martial Arts in existence before the amalgamation and popularizing of Taekwondo
@@daman6787 No. That's not it. It stems from the fact that Gen Choi made A LOT of enemies in South Korea before he left.
He wasn't a favourite of the political class when he went into exile. So, they made efforts to erase his contributions from the Taekwon-Do record. If they'd acknowledged that he created Taekwon-Do that wouldn't have been beneficial to them. This was the same person who openly critiqued the political class of Korea in embassy parties after all. Who in the political class would like that? They were dictators, but still. Nobody had a problem with Tkd's origins when Gen Choi was in Korea. He stated them quite openly. It is a synergy of Shotokan Karate and Taekkyon.
People say Chinese arts as well and that may be true BUT those same people NEVER say WHERE those contributions from Chinese arts may be found! If they know what they're talking about shouldn't they be able to tell us that? There's also talk about other Korean martial arts influencing Tkd. OK, what were those influences? What did they contribute?
I can see similarities between Tkd techniques and Shuai Jaio. For example, the slow motion upward palm block in Kwang Gae (technique 5, I believe) looks like a basic throw often seen in Shuai Jiao.
Now, is that technique a direct contribution from Shuai Jiao or is it a contribution of Shotokan Karate? Shotokan Karate has STRONG Chinese influences as do ALL forms of Okinwana Karate. I don't know whether we can say that a particular hand technique or stance in Tkd has Okinawan or Chinese roots.. All we can say for certain, is that, Tkd seems to have been strongly influenced by both Shotokan Karate and Taekkyon.
You are right, this can be seen in the katas, how the concept of the embusen was modified and the techniques. TOD did come from Shotokan. The aspect that is missing from these modifications is that Karate katas primarily deal with close and mid ranges of combat. Many of the odd looking techniques are meant to be trapping motions, blocks, locks and throws. This core of grappling knowledge is the connective tissue that leads to the strike. The lack of training in these concepts makes the sparring look entirely different than the katas which begs the question then why do it at all? This an issue that plagues TKD as well as some modern karate practices.
I’d say the most accurate representation we have of what functional Karate would look like is MMA. The hooks we see when fellas are up the cage can be seen in the Naihanchi(Tekki) katas along side the leg sweep and dunk, throws and even arm bars. The clinching motion followed by a knee strike and a dunk is in the Pinan Yondan (Heian Sandan). Trapping the head and smashing the opponent’s face with an elbow is present in the above mentioned Kata as well as in Sochin just to mention of few examples.
I don’t know the legitimacy of the story in the. movie called the fighter of the wind. But the story portrayed the traditional martial arts tekkyeon as very very obsolete from japans karate overall so a Korea/Japanese citizen who was forced to live in Japan developed a form of karate. Now like I said I don’t know the legitimacy of the story but I’ve always knew that taekwondo got there inspiration from karate and Chinese martial arts.
Awesomely fun video Ramsey. I do ITF Taekwon-Do and I think lots of your viewers probably do Taekwon-Do too. More videos on it please. That’d be great. Cheers. ❤️
When I took TKD in the early 90s, my master , who was teaching in Korea before the Tae Guek forms were made in the 50s, told me the same thing.
He told me he refused to learn them because he was already an instructor and used the older material. So, I never did learn the modern forms, only what he learned in the 30s and 40s.
For example, we never had high kicks.
your lucky to have an instructor like him
My old shotokan teacher never taught high kicks either. And there were only two belts in his system white and black.
As you were demonstrating these forms I could not help but notice they also look very similar to some of the kempo forms.
The first martial art I took was kempo karate as a kid and I still remember most of the basic movements.
Is there a correlation to or is it coincidental?
Most karate styles use the exact same movements, but the order of those movements in their forms varies from style to style.
@@RamseyDewey Thanks, that's pretty interesting. Your videos are very interesting and informative! Great content!
Yah i kind of figured this out when i watched a karate kata demo at a mall and noticed the similarities since i ised to do tkd. Especially when it comes to the beginner forms. They are almost completely identical.
Hello sir, I'm a Shotokan black belt, I also got to love Shotokan again after starting researching it, since so many had happened also to Karate from 70's to this point. I would gladly talk to you about Shotokan Kata forms and it's meaning (which are much more than just strikes).
I find most kata are no longer fit for purpose. Certainly no kata I ever learned. There's the whole practice of reverse engineering the movements into actual techniques you'd use in a fight. They're, ostensibly, like formalised shadow boxing.
Except if you have to spend a bunch of extra time reverse engineering the movements back into actual usable techniques then they are not working as solo fight training anymore. They've become too separated from the practical usage and into rote movements you do because that's what you do in the kata. You do it because that's how it's always been done.
Make new ones! Put together sequences and movements that are clear to the practioner and based on the kinds of fighting that will be done today. Have Kata that start from the cage or the ropes or the corner. Kata from a sprawl. Kata from the modern fighting stances and hand positions!
If people who have particular historical interest want to go back and explore the old forms, work out their history and the meanings of the moves then do that too! Don't discard the history!
But for little Timmy, Tammy and Tariq coming into their first TKD/Karate/etc. class maybe don't spend hours teaching them a series of movements that were relevant to a master 100 years ago that requires careful reverse engineering to realise that a blocking movement is actually a twisting push from a grapple.
I agree on the first part. Judo for example has made entirely new katas and they work. Karate katas went through too much (now considered) unnecesairy change without proper documentation.
However, as for the kids. Part of the changes in katas were made especially for kids. They didn't want to teach kids the "destructive" stuff like eye coughing and throat hitting. Maybe they are afraid that it would corrupt the children, or that they will missuse it.
I'm always so frustrated, because I like both of those things - diving into the history and trying to recreate what the people who made the form did, and updating forms for the way we actually spar today - but I feel like it's hard to find people interested in the actual forms who aren't like... Jake Mace
Reverse engineering? What about bunkai, and yakusoku kumite? Do other styles not do this? I.e. I am used to learning two-man/partnered applications of kata as well as the kata themselves. They are just one interpretation of the kata, but pretty useful.
@@ninjafruitchilled We did the same thing in (ITF) Taekwondo when I was a kid. Do you know how close those partnered attacking and blocking sequences were to the sparring we actually did? How we actually threw punches and kicks? How we actually blocked? Or stood or moved? Not in the slightest. At the time, of course, I didn't know better, but looking back at them now? I am less happy with the training time spent on them...
Those practised partnered sequences just felt the same as the solo forms. Unrelated to the application in sparring. We weren't 'training how we fought'. Overhauling the forms to more modern ones would come along with an equivalent update to the partnered drills I assume.
@@sirbobulous Ours were pretty good. Especially the bunkai. Some of the most valuable training we did I'd say other than sparring. At least when you train them at a high level. If you just treat them as routines they aren't very good, but if you go hard they are great. I don't think kids really have the right mindset to do them right though, it is more for adults. You need your partner to not go easy on you, i.e. make you work properly to get the techniques to work correctly.
I'm of Korean ancestry, and I learned Korean history well from my parents, so I was aware of all this. Korea was in a fever of reclaiming national identity after the absolutely horrific and inhumane Japanese occupation, which is why the link between the two martial arts wasn't really brought to wider attention. I think it's getting better now though; most legit Taekwondo instructors even in Korea now say Taekwondo is very closely related to Shotokan.
As an interesting side note, the founder of Kyokushin Karate, Mas Oyama / Choi Bae Dal, was a Zainichi Korean (a Korean person with Japanese citizenship). And back in the 60s - 70s, Korean media idolized this dude, and there were lots of comics and TV shows about him. But the people who published these pieces of pop culture media at the time had to write Oyama as a Taekwondo fighter, because the dictatorial government at that time would probably have cracked down on them otherwise.
Korea copied way more than just martial arts from Japan. Even the ideas of nationalism were copied, the idea of pure blood, was copied, as well as half of Japanese cuisine, entertainment, and technologies. Yet, it was never admitted by Koreans. Instead they claim that Japan copied them, which is complete and utter childish BS.
@@wudangmasterlee8123 Modern Korean nationalism, and the modern idea of a Korean identity, primarily arose from anti-Japanese resistance movements during the occupation, not from copying Japanese sentiments at the time. And the vast majority of Korean cuisine is exclusively Korean (as far as I know, Koreans are the ones who invented kimchi, doenjang paste, gochujang paste, and K-BBQ, just to name a few important Korean foods). At this point, popular Japanese-based dishes in Korea are acknowledged as such (eg. ramyun, tonkatsu).
The main sectors of Korean entertainment, K-pop and K-dramas, are not very Japanese influenced. Regarding K-pop, K-pop's biggest influence is actually American. Starting from the 50s when the Kim sisters covered "Charlie Brown", and to now with groups like BTS being inspired by American hip-hop, American musical influence was always the largest. Regarding K-dramas, there are a small number of K-dramas that were remakes of Japanese stories (eg. The White Tower, City Hunter), but the majority of K-dramas are exclusively Korean original stories, and historically, the early K-dramas were often based on telling nostalgic tales of medieval Korea (eg. Dae Jang Geum). And I think it's no secret that Japan loved original Korean entertainment and wanted to bring our storytelling to their land - Japanese people loved Winter Sonata.
I think your strongest point about Japanese influence is probably in technology; early in its history, Korean tech firms like Samsung got their start by partnering with Japanese advisors, and the scaling-up of Korean tech conglomerates was pushed by Japanese-influenced Korean leaders like Park Chung Hee. Entering into the era of the Korean Wave, however, Japanese and Korean tech firms went into different niches (Korea makes cell phones, Japan manufactures raw materials). And the modern success of Korean tech is now driven by Koreans, even if the beginning got some assistance from Japanese people and Japanese influence.
But overall, to say Korean development was significantly copied from Japan is a gross overstatement (with some implied imperialistic undertones, which doesn't sit very well with me). Koreans have achieved plenty on their own.
Edit: About Korean entertainment, if we're talking about Korean movies, the Japanese influence there is a bit bigger. To bring some examples, "Oldboy" was based on a Japanese manga, and director Bong Joon Ho said he's had some inspiration from Japanese film directors. I think, for Korean media, movies are the sector where Japanese influence is a bit more prominent.
The form you do look like Taikyoku Sono Ichi kata. We have them in kyokushin too and as you said it comes from shotokan
Here is a fun fact, General Choi and Mas Oyama were good friends from the time that they trained under Gichin Funakoshi. At one point, the general asked Mas if he cared to fold his Kyokushin style under the banner of Taekwon-Do and the national organization which was known at the time as the KTA. Mas politely declined but they remained good friends. There are many pictures of them together during Oyama's visits to Korea.
Hey there Ramsey! I hope you're doing well. I wanted to ask you what do you think the relationship is like between planning and reacting in the ring? Is following a game plan more prevalent, or is it reaction and skills of the moment that takes the cake? Is it safe to depend on strategies too much, not considering the possibility they fail? How important do you think game plan is? And how big a role does it truly play? Is it opponent oriented training, or overall training of a fighter that makes him a beast, and lets him be able to beat everybody in the ring? Would a skilled but unprepared fighter be able to beat an unskilled yet trained fighter who trained specifically against him? Thank you!
I just recorded a video about reaction time vs acting. Stay tuned!
@@RamseyDewey 💪💪💪
Hi Ramsey do you have videos or considered doing videos on sports injuries, muscle tears or training with these problems if possible?
As a side note, the new 8 forms are called Taegeuk which means Tai Chi, as in the ☯️ symbol.
The old 8 forms were called Palgwae, which translates to Bagua, as in Baguazhang.
Each form represented one out of the 8 trigrams of the Taoist Yijing (there are only four on the flag 🇰🇷).
Yes, they are more like movement training drills compared to karate. My Korean instructor said he liked the bunkai applications of karate a lot. However, he could punch and kick harder than anyone I've ever witnessed.
You know your stuff and wished your comment had more like, I like Ramsey but this post is slightly misleading.
Yes tkd does take inspiration from karate because all of Korea North and South had been occupied by Japan during the second world War. However it's the ITF branch that barrows the most from kyokushin ryu mostly and a bit of the Japanese styles that were prevalent at the time. The world taekwondo federation (WTF) reconstructed the system around the poomsae creating the Taeguek (Supreme ultimate aka tai chi) and Palgwe (8 diagram aka bagua) forms which do take inspirations from mainland Asia; specifically China.
Has anyone read the book "A killing art", it's about gen. Choi and tkd origins. İt debunks lots of tkd myths, it's a good read imho and I would certainly recommend it to everyone interested in the topic.
I wonder if Ramsey has read it🤔
Did it mention that Taekwondo is partially from Shotokan?
@@prvtthd401 Yup, it tells the whole story of who Choi went to Japan, trained Shotokan and then "invented" tkd (basically copying shotokan and changing the name)
Excellent book. Pissed off a few people :-)
That is actually a very good insight that helps to make a lot of sense about Taekwondo. I think that as any other martial art have very dynamic development with it's periods of declines. Taekwondo being essentially a second derivative of Okinawan martial art should not surprise anyone that it is as incomplete. On the other hand I do believe that in creating their own way of teachings Okinawans have improved what they have inherited from Chinese. At least when it comes to formal methodology. Though I may be wrong on that regard as well as I am still ignorant.
"You can copy my work, but don't make it look obvious.
The teacher will notice if you do." 😄
I actually like how young TKD is for this reason, I'm not a massive South Koreaboo geek so it's genuinely fun learning the propaganda stories and there are a bunch of little rabbit holes to go down learning about the South Korean nationalist military cult stuff, iconic resistance figures (martyrs) etc.
I haven't trained in about 20 years now but resumed doing as many of the stretches as I could remember recently and it's been so good for me lol. Could take up yoga instead though.
Read a nice book called “Old School Perspectives on TKD that goes into a lot of the karate history. As for the straight spear finger, I know of two applications. One is moving a punch and reaching over for the throat or neck, and the other application is to catch an arm and grabbing the neck for a throw. I’ve only used it once while sparring with friends though. It worked for that circumstance, but I rarely ever see it tried. Unfortunately taekwondo tag er I mean sparring doesn’t allow for many of the things we learn. Tkd needs better sparring across the board. People rarely get to stress test the techniques. I also notice some big differences between the federations. I love being part of Chinmukwan because I trust it to be more combat appropriate. our forms from the Chang-Hon system lack the three lines. I find that the up and down motions from ITF and Wtf are silly during forms. I’m always down for a good falling step but they go up and down so much it looks like an odd dance. My number one problem with my fellow tkd folks though? Keep your damn hands up in a fight. I know (leg fencing) seems cool, but you have so much more than that. Thank you Mr. Dewey for all your hard work.
WTF has an up and down movement? I thought they moved like Shotokan Karate? It's ITF, to my knowledge, that has the up and down movement.
@@davidbarnwell_virtual_clas6729 you may be right, I’ve never studied wtf and only see them during the olympics.
@@westgardracul Yes, I believe it's only ITF that does the up and down movement. People keep saying it's impractical but I don't think it is.
@@davidbarnwell_virtual_clas6729 it’s a matter of perspective I suppose. Dropping your wait during a technique can certainly add power. I just think it looks silly and takes away some of the strength training that the stances in forms provides. Many that I see do it often don’t put much intensity into it. Maybe that’s why it looks silly to me. I dunno. To each their own.
@@westgardracul Taekwondo people couldn't spar from low stances anyways, because it's a kick heavy art.
We actually do have at least one 'low' stance but that's used for throwing/grappling techniques, mostly.
It's not like the low stances used in either Chinese arts or Shotokan Karate..
BTW, Okinawan Karate people don't use low stances either, so I don't know that anyone HAS to use them.
Your use or not of them, imo, depends on the demands of your combat strategies.
As I said, sine wave is meant to be executed at high speed with rotation of the hip into your technique while raising your body mass ...
You rotate your hip and drop your body mass into the technique..so your enemy's body is withstanding the impact of both your hip rotation and the dropping of your body mass.
It's not silly at all.
Oh wow, that’s awesome info, I never thought about that or even noticed
I did not know you are a black belt in TKD, btw, an interesting hand position for a high block. TKD is taken its inspiration from Shotokan, Taichi and Taekyon. I agree with you about researching into the history of , not only, shotokan, but deeper than shotokan. Good video!
Kukkiwon Taekwondo practitioner here. Taekwondo descends from Taekkyeon, Karate and Chinese Martial Arts. It's influenced by these styles, which can be seen in its forms, stances, techniques, strikes, etc. And while there is a fair amount of politics involved in the art's history, be it the roots, figures, events or origin, etc, there is also a great philosophical aspect in all facets that unfortunately has been getting lost with modernization and has sadly downgraded the art from what it once was. I love my art. Is it perfect? No. Can it be better? Absolutely. Does it have redeeming qualities and characteristics? Yes. There is always hope and room to grow and improve, which should be the goal of every martial artist. Greetings from Puerto Rico, Ramsey! Love your videos!
Thanks for the upload. For an even more obvious link to the shotokan katas, look at the ITF/Chang hon ryu Taekwondo poomsae/tul/hyungs.
They're all named after Korean patriots too.
Would be interesting to see your view on them.
What’s your thoughts on Lyoto Machida’s modem karate style? He teaches the forms but in a more practical way. No putting your fists down to your waist etc…
Calgary Alberta Canada, learned Hung Gar Gung Fu, 1974, during those years martial arts were magic, love your channel, wish I was 30 years younger.
I’ve always thought karate and tkd were the same martial art. I’ve always said Karate is Japanese tkd or tkd is Korean karate bc besides Kyokusin, the two arts are extraordinarily similar. Turns out tkd plagiarized karate. Thanks for answering that Ramsey!
It’s even deeper than that. Tang Soo Do (one of the ancestor arts of Taekwondo) literally is Korean karate. It was the name Koreans used for the Shotokan karate that they practiced. Tang Soo Do (Tang Shou Daoin Chinese- later changed to Kong Shou Dao) means Tang Dynasty Hand Way.
The original name of karate was “toute” (The Japanese words for Tang Dynasty Hand… aka: Chinese hand) before the Japanese changed it to “kara te do” (empty hand way) Meanwhile in Korean and it’s still Tang Soo Do (Chinese hand way).
But then the rabbit hole goes even deeper. A huge percentage of American karate schools are actually Korean martial arts schools that rebranded as “karate” because karate was more well known in America in the 70’s and 80’s. All the schools that descended from the famous “Kim’s karate” for example, are actually an early form of Taekwondo that developed independent of the kukkiwon.
There are thousands of “karate”practitioners in America who make fun of Taekwondo who have been practicing Taekwondo the whole time.
@@RamseyDewey Indeed, I mean look at Chuck Norris for example. He is generally thought of as a karate guy, and indeed he fought in quite a few karate tournaments, but of course he learned mainly Tang Soo Do in Korea. But of course all this stuff was just thought of as the same kind of thing back then, at least to Westerners.
That is not true. It was ALWAYS known that TKD is a mixture of Shotokan Karate and Taekkyon. That was NEVER hidden!! At least, not in ITF circles.
@@DavidBarnwell876tkdja I don't mean among practitioners, I mean among the wider community
@@DavidBarnwell876tkdja It’s mostly Karate guys who bash TKD and make incoherent arguments about how their martial art is totally different.
By reading Funikoshi’s biography as well as the history on how Okinawan karate came to japan, I learned that Shotokan was a “dumbed down” version of karate to be taught in Japanese schools. So…the Koreans adopted a lesser form of karate for their national art. That’s my conclusion. 😁
But, that's only the interpretation of SOME people.
Others don't think they were dumbed down, at all.
Ian Abernathy, for example, doesn't think so.
What we can all agree on, is that, in his later years, Funakoshi did not teach the applications of the Kata.
But he did do that in his earlier years.
Perhaps post war restrictions enacted by the occupation authorities on martial art schools had something to do with that?
Or maybe he had strong negative feelings, post war, about fighting, in general?
Who knows.
All we really know is that he stopped teaching both the Bunkai,kata analyses and the Kobudo, Okinawan weapons techniques, that he did teach at an earlier point in time.
Shotokan effectiveness suffered because of that decision. But, maybe it was understandable in the circumstances in which he had to exist.
@@davidbarnwell_virtual_clas6729 he stopped because the Japanese government told him to. They only wanted the striking aspects not the grappling or weapons as they already had martial arts that covered those. :)
@@DoomGuy-kf8fv did not know he taught grappling ot weapons. I understand that it was a rare thing that a karate style taught these as a part of their art. One of the the few that did incorporate kobudo was Isshin ryu. From what I have seen, karate was mostly striking and kicking.
@@DoomGuy-kf8fv That is not true. The Japanese government never interfered with the actual lessons taught in a Karate school. The thing they insisted on is that every martial art taught in Japan register with a national body. They also insisted on each art developing a Do rather than a Jutsu philosophy. That is, a philosophy focused on self improvement rather than developing the ability to kill. They wanted to change their society and didn't want to encourage the creation of the type of bad men that some samurai were before the Meiji restoration. They wanted to turn the page on that culture, hence the moronic Do philosophies extant in martial arts today. It's the students of Funakoshi who insisted on learning only striking techniques. They reasoned that Japan had enough grappling styles and they wanted to learn striking. So, Funakoshi taught them the things that they wanted to learn.
@@mikesteele9431 He taught both in Japan prior to Japan losing WW II. After WW II he stopped teaching weapons techniques because he'd told the occupying authorities that Karate wasn't about creating fighters. It was about improving people. It was a spiritual discipline, if you will, rather than a fighting discipline. He could not continue teaching weapons techniques after saying that. He'd have been shut down if he did. The founder of Shorinji Kempo pulled a similar trick . He told the occupying authorities Shorinji Kempo was more of a religion, a Zen Buddhist practice, than a martial art. That's why his doors stayed open.
While I did know every martial art was interconnected, I did not know about this particular connection. You've done it again, coach!!!!!
Could you do a history of Taekwondo video, Ramsey?
With Japan occupying Korea and suppressing culture for decades, I thought it was only natural that post-occupation Korea was influenced by Japan. This includes martial arts. Korean native martial arts suffered while Japanese ones were more common than the occupied would like. It’s inevitable they’d diverge with time, let alone intent to diverge, but for the earlier times it’s basically a Korean take on Japanese style. When TKD was being composed, the kwans were filled with Karate users.
As a karate practitioner I don’t know if I would call it silly.
From my perspective they took especially the Heian katas (same as Pinan katas) but also other shotokan versions of katas, remixed them and created their own adaption that is more or less a new thing of their own.
And with Korea’s and Japans long and complicated history, and the whole imperial Japan, I can see why many of the decisions with taekwondo was made.
I think the forms in taekwondo are interesting to watch, because it’s not just that the techniques are familiar. But it’s whole parts of katas. Like sections of different katas you very much recognise.
But they are pretty big chunks/pieces of different katas remixed together in the 3 levels sort of shape rather then say the two levels one you see in most of the Heian katas (just without the middle dash in the embusen).
A lot of the Heian katas originally was to a large degree based on the kata kanku-dai (also called kushanku).
So I think it could be interesting for taekwondo practitioners to learn or atleast watch the Heian Katas and Kanku-dai kata from shotokan karate.
But not trained for it’s own sake, but more to get a interesting perspective on what is and isn’t familiar to you from taekwondo forms. Explore it to get a look at some of the history behind what was many of the fundamental building blocks for many taekwondo forms.
But trained with the focus on your taekwondo and not in order to train karate.
No more silly than having the name “ Ramsey Dewey”.
You’d think a fighter with a name like that would have a losing record … oh, wait…
My first martial arts school was a Tae Kwon Do class taught at our YMCA back in 1982. It was the Chang Hon forms that ITF teaches now, but I don't believe my instructor was under any organization back in those days. It was very traditional karate, very hard hitting and years later when I got into Shotokan, I realized just how similar the two styles were. I think back fondly at the training there. Good times.
I was in Tang Soo do for awhile and where I went they called it another style of karate but after I started looking at different martial arts videos online I noticed it's almost identical to taekwondo. Even the sparring rules were the same as alot of taekwondo schools. So the way I see it it's basically just another branch of taekwondo. But yeah I remember seeing forms just like that in the Tang Soo do school I went to. Then later on I checked out an actual karate school and noticed the patterns were so much different in the beginner forms. It's so crazy I never knew this about the beginner forms. Very eye opening.
Yep. Here’s the historical reason for that: Tang Soo Do is Korean for Tou Te Do, the original Japanese name for Kara Te Do. It’s what Koreans used to call Shotokan karate. Not that long ago, Taekwondo, Shotokan, and Tang Soo Do were all the same thing.
@@RamseyDewey thanks for the info
Hi Ramsey. I have watched you for like 2 years now and i want to ask you if you can make videos or series about unique chinese martial arts(with unique moves and techniques). I was reasontly reading about Liu He Ba Fa (water boxing). i want to know more about them .I apologize if it has already been asked.
Chinese traditional martial artists are really hard to find in China. That may be surprising to hear, but it’s true.
It's interesting that you mention this, cause I took TKD lessons for 2 years when I was a kid, also my Mom got me a Karate book (that taught Karate, obviously) and I remember thinking as I observed the book "wow, the kicks, punches and blocks look so similar to what I was learning in TKD, except for a few minor differences." 😅
Also just to note, my TKD instructor said that the 10th Degree Black Belt is the final belt and that it's rewarded after death... but I known of people with 10th degree Black belt still living. 🤔
Also something about TKD being created to survive against wild animals in the wilderness (if I recall that correctly; I could mistaking that with a different style). 🤔
Against wild animals? Now that sounds like some BS. Unless, of course, the training involved combat against actual wild animals.
Part of the white dobok uniform idea was 1) practical, and 2) philosophical. Practically speaking, way back then this is what was available and was akin to its cultural outfit. So a modern westerner might feel weird wearing it. Philosophically, the plain ugly dobok was meant to make everyone humble. No flash, no showing off muscles, etc. All about humility, which goes counter to mindset of many in modern fighting entertainment industry because it’s not good for marketing.
Calling it a cult is quite a stretch I think.
TKD also has influence from Chinese martial arts, indigenous Korean fighting styles of TaekKyeon, Subak, and Kwon Beop, as well as heavy influence from Japanese karate as you said.
Interesting I did not know that Thanks for the explanation
1959 KTA was formed as Korean Tang Soo Do association. Then in 1961 changed its name to Korean Taekwondo Association. From 1959 to 1967 they were using the Tang Soo Do forms. Then in 1967 they adopted new forms called Palgwae and were used between 1967 to 1971. The Kukkiwon-style taekwondo made use of an older set of forms called the palgwae forms developed by the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA) with input from some of the original nine kwans of taekwondo. By 1970, additional kwans had joined the KTA so the newer set of taegeuk forms was developed to better represent inputs from all the participating kwans. Then in 1971, the palgwae forms were replaced by the taegeuk forms.
Our TangSooDo still does the Palgwe forms
Interesting theory linking the two martial arts.
Oh question for couch Ramsey. What do you think of practicing forms as part of a work out?
Some cults don't use white robes. Some use a white buttonup, black pants, and an elder name tag badge- or a suit and tie with an elder name tag badge. Or just a suit and tie. Yeah. There's that too.
Sometimes young followers walk the streets in pairs carrying shoulder bags...
The Chang Hon Tuls precede the Taeguek forms, they've been around since 1954-55 whereas the Taeguek forms have been around since the late 1960s (looking around 67-68. Chung Do Kwan was the first school to open and it was in fact Shotokan Karate. There is a whole history of this and the book A Killing Art: The Story of Tae Kwon Do by Alex Gillis. Most people only know Kukkiwon because of South Korea and the Olympic games.
Traditional martial arts are the best WHEN you’re taught them correctly. TKD is very effective you just have to make sure you’re at a traditional school and you have to drill in the movements with power behind them
It’s true! While in Army I studied TKD (plus American Kick Boxing, for some reason our instructor felt it important to teach the forms although otherwise we kickboxed). Anyway, my best friend joined the class with me and he has studied Shotokan before that. Well, he already knew the forms being taught and said the same thing - forms are basically the same. I Never have it much thought though as I was more into the kickboxing and did the forms because I had to. I did dig doing the acrobatic kicks though - even though I felt they weren’t practical, it filled in for not doing gymnastics as a kid (which I wanted to do but didn’t).
Sweet kicks, btw- especially your axe kick.
This is a drastic oversimplification of the events that took place to form Taekwondo from the 9 kwans of former South Korean Martial Arts. However, there are a couple of good takeaways for the beginning practitioner: Yes, many of the WT Poomsae follow the Trigrams from the flag. Yes, the forms have roots in Karate, but only after they were distilled through Tang Soo Do, which applied the influence of other martial arts to them, such as Northern Style Kung Fu, Tai Chi, and Taekyon. Understand though that Mr. Dewey is lumping all TKD together, but he's only speaking about WT TKD. There are other assocations that practice other forms than the Taeguk.
For sure they came from Shotokan. My original experience was with Chung Do Kwan. When I would later train with someone who was from a mixed Shotokan background, he said my forms were almost the same as what he did. One thing, the earlier forms were in an "H" pattern. I think the three lines were introduced a little later. Maybe due to a North Korean vs. South Korean thing.
Interesting. Thanks for the history lesson.
When I trained in Ju-jitsu (not BJJ) we had a couple of blocking kata's, but they were pretty static and had no real purpose bar demonstrated the different blocks one after another. It was something you learnt for a grading but it was totally divorced from the main training you were doing in class day in and out. Later when I cross-trained in Aikido, they started the class with a kata that included arm movement, foot movement and direction changes. Each movement in the kata then was used all through the syllabus and linked to every technique we were learning. This made it feel like the kata had a purpose and was part of the art rather than tagged on because someone felt a martial art should have a kata in it. It made me want to revisit our ju-jitsu katas and make up more "practical" ones.
Thats so cool! I didn't know that
This is why I practice karate more often these days. I still respect TKD as my first art, but I just really have no reason to be a cheerleader for SK. Not that I mind the country or anything, but…it’s not my home either.
Just curious...Tang Soo Do looks very similar. Is there a relation there? That would be a cool video. Thank you...digging the history.
Tang Soo Do is Korean for Tou Te Do (the original Japanese name for karate-do) It’s what Koreans used to call Shotokan.
Tang Soo Do is Korean for Tou Te Do (the original Japanese name for karate-do) It’s what Koreans used to call Shotokan.
I have a Kenpo and kick boxing background currently to be an taekwondo instructor it’s very confusing I’m learning forms from scratch and feel like a fool on days !
I hope, I will translate it right in english. One of my old Karate Trainers ( I did a couple of years Taekwondo before ;-) ) said once to me: You can fool/deceive yourself in nothing more as in religions and in martial arts.
True words.
Is this just for WT Taekwondo or does it carry over to other taekwondo styles like ITF?
All styles of Taekwondo: WT, ITF, ATA, GTF, and Jhoon Rhee’s style, and even Master Kim’s Taekwondo that he renamed as Kim’s Karate which eventually became one of the biggest progenitors of “karate” in America, all came from the same source: the Japanese occupation of Korea and Shotokan. Even tang soo do was just the Korean name for toudi (the original name of karate: Chinese hand, or Tang Dynasty Hand Way in Korean)
The forms all different for a bunch of different reasons, but this is the origin of the WTF forms.
Interesting. I'm not a Tae Kwon Do practicioner, but judging by your outfit, you're practicing the World Tae Kwon Do Federation (WTF) version of the art (cmiiw). It would make sense if the poomsae follows the South Korean flag. However, there's also the ITF Tae Kwon Do that are quite popular in North Korea. Do their form (poomsae) also similar to the WTF one?
The original sets in TKD were the Pyong An sets. They were retained by Tang Soo Do and they are only slightly different from their Shotokan equivalents. Then came the Chang Hon developed by Gen Choi. These were an attempt to Koreanise the Shotokan forms not only in style but in the sequences. They also included some forms derived from Shuri Te and Tomari Te. eg: Chon Ji Hyung (or Tul) is straight from those arts.
The Palgwe were a further attempt to brand differentiate and reflected some slight shift away from tyhe Japanese roots. Meanwhile over in Tang Soo Do land Hwang Kee was developing some more original sets (which I like but struggle to understand).
Then, as TKD persisted its various fragmentations, the Kuk Ki Won came up with the Tae Gyuk forms (as you spoke to and showed bits of). These were a weird attempt to combine sparring with the Olympic push (at the time) and I believe failed to achieve anything. You can have them! They are still Shotokan derived, but with most of the useful bits removed.
All in the name of nationalism, brand differentiation and achieving a place in the Olympics.
Bleuh!
Ramsey since you have done MMA and are an expert grappler and now know what a lot of the forms are supposed to be teaching, would you say there is value in the "shadow grappling" portion of martial arts? Curious because there's a growing number of the traditional martial artists with positive MMA fight records (who still teach TMAs since they are more popular than MMA across broad portions of society) so I imagine they could teach the applications! In a generation could we be going into a TMA renaissance?
For instance if for some reason you could only teach taekwondo, would you teach students that the downward block was to strip a grip on your wrist?
*Very interesting indeed!*
Anytime The Title says goofy, silly, or Detroit Threat Management I know I'm gonna start the day of smiling. Love the content as always!
Ramsey,
Thanks for posting this as what you say is true about the Taekwondo/Shotokan connection.
Do you know of that book A Killing Art by Alex Gillis? If I remember correctly, he is a taekwondo practitioner. He also says that the founder of taekwondo derived his art from Shotokan.
Dear coach Ramsey, coming up through TKD as a kid I actually didn't learn forms until I was in the "adult" class...after that I went to Shorin-ryu for a while and thought their forms made a lot more linear sense...I guess this is why...
Really noticable when you look at the ITF pattern called Won Hyo. Looks just like Heian Nidan.
I did about 2 years of shotokan back in grade 8/9 age. Forms seem really silly because you barely ever see the opposite side application. It should be part of learning the form, learning what's happening on the other side of it. What attackers are coming, where are strikes landing back, here's a real person doing it vs the imaginary opponent. How you can learn to go through the form, and not know the purpose of a move is kind of crazy.
They don't teach that before black belt, because it is too dangerous.
Bigger problem is, some black belts never grow beyond the brown belt, because their senseis never outgrown their brown belts either!! lol
That's intriguing, if you look up Tae Kwon Do they mention Subak, and Taekkyon. But if you look up Tang Soo Do they do mention
Shotokan Karate, Subak, and Taekkyon. Also Tang Soo Dos forms look like off center I's, T's, and Japanese Kanji.
Just one historical note. General Choi, the father of modern taekwondo - to draw a line from the original Korean Taekkyon - was a second Dan or dang if you speak taekwondish, or simply degree black belt under Gichin Funakoshi, father of Shotokan. Then he founded his own style stressing the power on legs and kicks so creating the tae-kwon-do or way of the foot and fist. Gamsa hamnida.