I lost my 3rd places with the advent of the cell phone. It turned my favorite espresso shops from a place of quiet conversation into an atmosphere of a telemarketers boiler room. Then when online ordering became possible, the poor baristas became assembly line workers that have to maintain an incredible pace. Then my other 3rd place was also ruined by the cell phone. The gym used to be a place where you not only exercised but help and encourage each other, spot each other, discuss pop culture or sports between sets - and at first cell phones had to remain in your locker (don't bring them on the lifting floor). But as the cell phone addiction became so great, people just couldn't put them down. I've seen some people who can only exercise one arm at a time because the other one has to be holding the phone. Now in between sets they get right on their phone. Almost no interaction between members anymore. Come to think of it, even in my 2nd place - work - people can't walk from one office to another without looking at their cell phone the whole way. And in the break rooms it's eerily quiet because everyone is in their own little world, on their phone. You might be able to tell I'm a dinosaur in this world now, I still refuse to carry a smart phone to this day.
Really wish my city had a third place. Sure we have a park, a Starbucks, etc. But there’s no real “space” to drive or bike to. A place to hangout. For me to get to a nice third place, is about 30 mins or more from me, and I think that makes third places so much more important and needed in more areas.
The fact that all modern third places are privatized and only available for some people and open during certain hours go against what a third place is in essence. A true third place should be open to all people from all social classes and should not be places where you are pressured to spend money. Instead third places should just be places where people can just be and feel safe and welcomed
Saying third places are "neutral" is a stretch. Like, would a person from a marginalized group, who can be easily identified by their dressing style, be afforded the same kind of "neutrality" in an open park, that other "regular" people are afforded? Third places definitely help create a more socially engaging atmosphere, but they are definitely not neutral, which is why even amongst third places, we have "specialized" establishments like gay bars; which is the same as those subreddits with rules against certain speech. Third places definitely work and are awesome, because they help you engage in group activities that make you FEEL like you are part of a community, even though that might very much not be true (your drinking buddy could be some anti-abortion guy) - and I don't see how a political discussion in such a public place would be any different from one on reddit. (other than you not being anonymous)
Two things - yes, in the ideal third place a person from a “marginalized group” (not even sure what that means anymore since, in america, everyone is afforded equal rights regardless of race, sex, religion, etc. under the constitution) would be afforded neutrality regardless of how they dress, as long as it’s not inappropriate and remains civil. Idek what “regular” people means either. I think the loss/lack of third places comes as some continue to marginalize and victimize themselves, even though there’s no reason too. Psychologically, victim mentalities only work if others are willing to play the victimizer role, and when that role is “given” to people without them having done anything to earn it, people get mad and get further divided. I think what made third places of the tomes of ancient greece and rome so ideal is that nobody really cared or took it personally if your political or philosophical ideas didn’t align. They heard what the other person had to say but could remain civil. It shouldn’t matter if your drinking buddy is for abortion or anti-abortion (they didn’t have abortion in ancient greece or rome, not the way we do now anyways, nothing even close) It’s their own opinion. Nobody is truly right or wrong. Just like how not democrats nor republicans are truly “right”. It’s just what we think is right. And the fact is people are different. But regardless, I think people forget that there used to be a time where we didn’t take things like politics so seriously and could co-exist with people who disagreed. When I’m in a third place, I can gauge whether or not someone has similar values to me just by looking at them. It’s far from perfect, and everyone makes those casual observations but I truly do not care. Why would I? If third places are neutral, which they are, then why would it matter so much? It doesn’t matter BECAUSE i’m in a neutral place.
In the middle of the video, most of those attributes you listed as describing Third Places are NOT required. I can easily imagine pretentious or exclusive Third Places, for example. You were only describing an ideal Third Place.
I find it hard to swallow that a coffeehouse should be compared to a Greek agora. There is no mixing of discussion between groups there and little "leveling". Hell, Black men in Philly were wrongly detained and handcuffed for sitting in a coffeshop waiting for a friend before ordering. This is supposedly welcome and accommodating? How well do these folks feel embraced by this space? Is that diverse and leveling, excluding and literally detaining persons? Also, what of the sexism of Oldenburg in his depiction of third places?
To say that no black people will feel comfortable in a coffee shop is asinine. Have you been to a coffee shop lately? Lots of white, black, latin, whatever. The exception is not the rule. Bad things like that happen - extremely obtusely rarely in comparison to the happenings in average daily life. If you think black men in philadelphia or any other city aren’t just as welcome as white people in your average modern third place, your view of the vast majority of the people in this country is extremely racially focused and just not factual. Come on.
@@fourth_place First off, I never said that no Black people will feel comfortable in a coffee shop. Secondly, you spent a lot of time talking about "third places" but didnt say terribly much. The places that Oldenburg cites as examples the French salon, the Greek agora, the Imperial Chinese teahouses, European coffeehouses.... these are all places where folks who "fit in" with the moneyed and educated are able to hang out, they werent just a coffeeshop they were on Oxford's campus, the French salons were hosted by rich socialites and invited the fashionable philsophers and musicians and playwrights to attend, the Chinese teahouse example literally has 'imperial' in the name. To claim that these spaces are diverse, leveling, or welcome to persons of all stripes or that those there would give hear to anyone who happened by is ludicrous. This is a romanticization of these places at best. The third places Oldenburg discusses when he gets down to where he actually liked to go were things like pool halls, barbershops, saloons, and the like. Notably he nearly insists on sex segregation in these environs and these arent places for families. Third place to some extent is a throw back to a more segregated time and place, where roles and social hierarchies kept folks more or less in their spheres. These are the "cosmopolitan canopies" of Elijah Anderson nor do the people in the coffeeshops or teahouses and salons have to be "streetwise" because a certain element either wasn't invited or isnt made welcome. This is to say that for as much as certain liberal university educated folks want to claim they are diverse, open, leveled, accessible, playful.... It's on their terms and with the people they wish to see as equals and regulars. One thing about the regulars is they regulate who gets to be one, who is made feel welcome and who isn't. The other part of this is that much of the argument is one that is simply against suburbanization. Living in a city, I created third place with friends and neighbors. Sitting on outside on the stoop, talking in the stairwell, or from porch to porch. Suburban folks dont get cosmopolitan canopies because they have retreated from the metropolis, they lock their doors driving through the "bad neighborhood" because they don't walk those streets, and they don't go to Jane Jacob's Rittenhouse Square because the parking is atrocious. The whole thing is a phantasm of an egalitarianism that has never really existed, and an idealized version of society that the folks who claim to want it would want to change and gentrify away as soon as they experience it.
Regardless of socioeconomic status only goes so far with our pay-to-stay model of many typical 3rd places. I often find them most useful for bio needs despite their proclivity toward excluding those who didn’t comply with the (un)written rule above. I find them useful in getting away from the distractions at home & when I’m doing non-employer work frowned upon at a space of employment. Ultimately, the privatization & commercialization of most spaces outside the home is worsening our physical interactions in socially conducive spaces to building relationships of all kinds.
I like the IDEA of Third Places, but I don't like how they are usually discussed online. I hate how (at least on Reddit, where I see it discussed most often) it is usually either discussed in terms of "Third places are dying!" or "Third places no longer exist!" or "Third Places? That sounds cool, we should do that!" But, they DO still exist! They are just simply not as popular as they used to be because there are better alternatives. Staying at home no longer has to be boring and there are numerous options for entertainment that don't require hanging out in a public place. Also, even though I like the idea of third places, every time I go to one I regret it. They are usually too loud and the people are rarely ever friendly. Home is much better in most ways. Maybe I'd feel different if I had friends?
At 3:50 "conducive to social interaction". Yes, that is what I WISH both Third Places AND Second Places were like, but in my experience they rarely ever are. When I go out to supposed Third Places, everyone ignores me and no one looks approachable and almost no one makes any attempt to socialize with people they aren't already grouped with. Plus, most Third Places are too loud (bars/clubs) or people are too busy with quiet things (coffee shops/bookstores/libraries). I really wish these places were as sociable as you claim, but they are only like that in theory and not in practice.
@@jasonarthurs3885 Sure, I'd love to, because museums are cool. But, they are absolutely NOT appropriate places to socialize with strangers! How could you even suggest such a thing!?
![Chlöe - Shake (Feat. Jeremih) [Official Visualizer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/aDs_1ufpfv8/mqdefault.jpg)
Having a real physical presence in your community makes you feel more real and your peers more human.
I lost my 3rd places with the advent of the cell phone. It turned my favorite espresso shops from a place of quiet conversation into an atmosphere of a telemarketers boiler room. Then when online ordering became possible, the poor baristas became assembly line workers that have to maintain an incredible pace. Then my other 3rd place was also ruined by the cell phone. The gym used to be a place where you not only exercised but help and encourage each other, spot each other, discuss pop culture or sports between sets - and at first cell phones had to remain in your locker (don't bring them on the lifting floor). But as the cell phone addiction became so great, people just couldn't put them down. I've seen some people who can only exercise one arm at a time because the other one has to be holding the phone. Now in between sets they get right on their phone. Almost no interaction between members anymore. Come to think of it, even in my 2nd place - work - people can't walk from one office to another without looking at their cell phone the whole way. And in the break rooms it's eerily quiet because everyone is in their own little world, on their phone. You might be able to tell I'm a dinosaur in this world now, I still refuse to carry a smart phone to this day.
This is all facts, especially the gym
Good sociological review on the key role 3rd places play & need to play as we shape and reshape society. Thanks!
Really wish my city had a third place. Sure we have a park, a Starbucks, etc. But there’s no real “space” to drive or bike to. A place to hangout. For me to get to a nice third place, is about 30 mins or more from me, and I think that makes third places so much more important and needed in more areas.
Great video - it was worth the hard work you put into it. Looking forward to more from you.
Love the in-depth video!
Love the love for Grand Central!! One of the few third places in LA!
Last third place I used was the parking lot of a community college.
23 Hour Fitness was a fake third place, but if you had $20 it would do for some.
The fact that all modern third places are privatized and only available for some people and open during certain hours go against what a third place is in essence. A true third place should be open to all people from all social classes and should not be places where you are pressured to spend money. Instead third places should just be places where people can just be and feel safe and welcomed
Saying third places are "neutral" is a stretch. Like, would a person from a marginalized group, who can be easily identified by their dressing style, be afforded the same kind of "neutrality" in an open park, that other "regular" people are afforded? Third places definitely help create a more socially engaging atmosphere, but they are definitely not neutral, which is why even amongst third places, we have "specialized" establishments like gay bars; which is the same as those subreddits with rules against certain speech.
Third places definitely work and are awesome, because they help you engage in group activities that make you FEEL like you are part of a community, even though that might very much not be true (your drinking buddy could be some anti-abortion guy) - and I don't see how a political discussion in such a public place would be any different from one on reddit. (other than you not being anonymous)
Two things - yes, in the ideal third place a person from a “marginalized group” (not even sure what that means anymore since, in america, everyone is afforded equal rights regardless of race, sex, religion, etc. under the constitution) would be afforded neutrality regardless of how they dress, as long as it’s not inappropriate and remains civil. Idek what “regular” people means either. I think the loss/lack of third places comes as some continue to marginalize and victimize themselves, even though there’s no reason too. Psychologically, victim mentalities only work if others are willing to play the victimizer role, and when that role is “given” to people without them having done anything to earn it, people get mad and get further divided. I think what made third places of the tomes of ancient greece and rome so ideal is that nobody really cared or took it personally if your political or philosophical ideas didn’t align. They heard what the other person had to say but could remain civil. It shouldn’t matter if your drinking buddy is for abortion or anti-abortion (they didn’t have abortion in ancient greece or rome, not the way we do now anyways, nothing even close) It’s their own opinion. Nobody is truly right or wrong. Just like how not democrats nor republicans are truly “right”. It’s just what we think is right. And the fact is people are different. But regardless, I think people forget that there used to be a time where we didn’t take things like politics so seriously and could co-exist with people who disagreed. When I’m in a third place, I can gauge whether or not someone has similar values to me just by looking at them. It’s far from perfect, and everyone makes those casual observations but I truly do not care. Why would I? If third places are neutral, which they are, then why would it matter so much? It doesn’t matter BECAUSE i’m in a neutral place.
Did you study urban development or community building? Im a college student in Philly and am considering going to do a masters
In the middle of the video, most of those attributes you listed as describing Third Places are NOT required. I can easily imagine pretentious or exclusive Third Places, for example. You were only describing an ideal Third Place.
I find it hard to swallow that a coffeehouse should be compared to a Greek agora. There is no mixing of discussion between groups there and little "leveling". Hell, Black men in Philly were wrongly detained and handcuffed for sitting in a coffeshop waiting for a friend before ordering. This is supposedly welcome and accommodating? How well do these folks feel embraced by this space? Is that diverse and leveling, excluding and literally detaining persons? Also, what of the sexism of Oldenburg in his depiction of third places?
To say that no black people will feel comfortable in a coffee shop is asinine. Have you been to a coffee shop lately? Lots of white, black, latin, whatever. The exception is not the rule. Bad things like that happen - extremely obtusely rarely in comparison to the happenings in average daily life. If you think black men in philadelphia or any other city aren’t just as welcome as white people in your average modern third place, your view of the vast majority of the people in this country is extremely racially focused and just not factual. Come on.
@@fourth_place First off, I never said that no Black people will feel comfortable in a coffee shop. Secondly, you spent a lot of time talking about "third places" but didnt say terribly much. The places that Oldenburg cites as examples the French salon, the Greek agora, the Imperial Chinese teahouses, European coffeehouses.... these are all places where folks who "fit in" with the moneyed and educated are able to hang out, they werent just a coffeeshop they were on Oxford's campus, the French salons were hosted by rich socialites and invited the fashionable philsophers and musicians and playwrights to attend, the Chinese teahouse example literally has 'imperial' in the name. To claim that these spaces are diverse, leveling, or welcome to persons of all stripes or that those there would give hear to anyone who happened by is ludicrous. This is a romanticization of these places at best.
The third places Oldenburg discusses when he gets down to where he actually liked to go were things like pool halls, barbershops, saloons, and the like. Notably he nearly insists on sex segregation in these environs and these arent places for families. Third place to some extent is a throw back to a more segregated time and place, where roles and social hierarchies kept folks more or less in their spheres. These are the "cosmopolitan canopies" of Elijah Anderson nor do the people in the coffeeshops or teahouses and salons have to be "streetwise" because a certain element either wasn't invited or isnt made welcome. This is to say that for as much as certain liberal university educated folks want to claim they are diverse, open, leveled, accessible, playful.... It's on their terms and with the people they wish to see as equals and regulars. One thing about the regulars is they regulate who gets to be one, who is made feel welcome and who isn't.
The other part of this is that much of the argument is one that is simply against suburbanization. Living in a city, I created third place with friends and neighbors. Sitting on outside on the stoop, talking in the stairwell, or from porch to porch. Suburban folks dont get cosmopolitan canopies because they have retreated from the metropolis, they lock their doors driving through the "bad neighborhood" because they don't walk those streets, and they don't go to Jane Jacob's Rittenhouse Square because the parking is atrocious. The whole thing is a phantasm of an egalitarianism that has never really existed, and an idealized version of society that the folks who claim to want it would want to change and gentrify away as soon as they experience it.
Regardless of socioeconomic status only goes so far with our pay-to-stay model of many typical 3rd places. I often find them most useful for bio needs despite their proclivity toward excluding those who didn’t comply with the (un)written rule above. I find them useful in getting away from the distractions at home & when I’m doing non-employer work frowned upon at a space of employment. Ultimately, the privatization & commercialization of most spaces outside the home is worsening our physical interactions in socially conducive spaces to building relationships of all kinds.
I like the IDEA of Third Places, but I don't like how they are usually discussed online. I hate how (at least on Reddit, where I see it discussed most often) it is usually either discussed in terms of "Third places are dying!" or "Third places no longer exist!" or "Third Places? That sounds cool, we should do that!" But, they DO still exist! They are just simply not as popular as they used to be because there are better alternatives. Staying at home no longer has to be boring and there are numerous options for entertainment that don't require hanging out in a public place. Also, even though I like the idea of third places, every time I go to one I regret it. They are usually too loud and the people are rarely ever friendly. Home is much better in most ways. Maybe I'd feel different if I had friends?
At 3:50 "conducive to social interaction". Yes, that is what I WISH both Third Places AND Second Places were like, but in my experience they rarely ever are. When I go out to supposed Third Places, everyone ignores me and no one looks approachable and almost no one makes any attempt to socialize with people they aren't already grouped with. Plus, most Third Places are too loud (bars/clubs) or people are too busy with quiet things (coffee shops/bookstores/libraries). I really wish these places were as sociable as you claim, but they are only like that in theory and not in practice.
Try visiting a local museum.
@@jasonarthurs3885 Sure, I'd love to, because museums are cool. But, they are absolutely NOT appropriate places to socialize with strangers! How could you even suggest such a thing!?