The weirdest part of this is still the hiker/driver on the side of the road that found the body. When you look at the original pictures of her buried it’s hard to believe that a guy taking a piss can just look over and find it so easily. I really wish Christina did a better job bringing this up, he’s a very critical witness and there’s so many questions attached to him.
What really scares me, is the fact that if Adnan is innocent, a guilty man is out there, knowing the truth. Knowing it was him and not Adnan, and not feeling guilty at the fact that he put this kid in jail for life. Or about the life he cut short, the families he tore apart, the friendships he culled. A part of me hopes that someday Adnan will be proved innocent, if he is of course. And that he will be able to live a normal life and be happy.
@YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM YOU ARE THE MONSTER agreed. having listened to the podcast up to this point, it comes down to who you believe- only one of two people- jay or adnan. jay knew things about the case that meant he was involved or he did it. for me, even though elements of his story are inconsistent, they are more explainable than the facts that point to adnans guilt.
Bro if he gets out he’s on parole for life dog his life will never be normal again and this is his only life that’s so fucked up fr that this is his only life and he’s put in a box for it like he can’t enjoy anything
@@daboy1246 he won’t be on parole if he is acquitted. He’ll only be on parole if he has time served and is let out. If it ever gets a retrial and he is found not guilty, that’s it. Until he files a civil lawsuit, but then his attorney will be handling that.
my biggest question is why didn't the cops wire Jay, like what most cops do, and have Jay go talk to Adnan about the incident and catch Adnan using his own words. I mean, any cop would try this tactic first before making a full assumption. Lets be real, cops tried to tie this down to Adnan before even having all the facts. they made up their minds from the start. I dont know if Adnan did it or not, but I do know the cops on this case did nothing right and everything wrong. A competent lawyer would have gotten Adnan out based on just REASONABLE DOUBT and lack of evidence. If the case goes back to court, that's what it will be seen as, a case full of reasonable doubt. you are supposed to go to prison based on NOT A SINGLE DOUBT left in the air. yet here we are, every year we release someone who been in prison for decades that was innocent.
That’s the problem with your statement. Christina was an excellent lawyer. Her past and even then. However around the Time of this trial she was slipping and you could tell of her odd behavior. Any lawyer probably would have defended him well. The problem is when you take most uneducated people and put them on a panel where you discuss facts, they can easily be swayed and instead of forming their own opinions, they would just listen and form their opinion around another’s opinion. Is honestly how a lot of juries work. Military Courts have the best judges and juries. Only officers can be jurors. Well educated people who can be objective and subjective about evidence. That’s my opinion about it all.
Well they don’t always wire people. Each state has different laws regarding consent and recordings. I don’t know particulars for Maryland. But if Maryland had a 2 party consent law, that would mean that adnan would have to agree to being recorded, which defeats the purpose. You can get a judge to give you a pass on this and that would allow them to let jay record adnan without adnans consent, but this trial moved so fast and they thought they had an iron clad case that they probably didn’t see any reason to do that, idk. But his lawyer does sound like she’s fucked up and has the most annoying voice on the planet. She definitely fucked up his case somewhere along the way, either knowingly or on accident. I think she threw the case personally.
I'm hoping they cover this later in the series but I think the reporter should talk to the officers and prison mates at Adnon's prison to see if he'd ever admitted to them or shown behavior in prison that could give some insight.
The fact that Adnan said to Jay "Only Allah knows" is the prove that Jay is such bullshit. Adnan was not a very religious kid. Muslims dont just randomly talk about Allah. Especially to a non muslim person. Jay specifically included that detail because he knows the court would take it the another way.
Really think it was indeed a misstep for his lawyer not to put more emphasis on the alibi or even the shaky timeline the prosecution was putting forward
I have been wondering for a while whether Sarah ever got a hold of any of Christina's law clerks, assistants, etc. to ask them some of the questions we obviously can't ask her -- most notably about the Asia alibi and why it *seems* that was never pursued. And perhaps that was something only Christina knew or would know the answer to, but maybe not!! I still would REALLY like it to be brought up with those who worked closely with her on this case, to give them the opportunity to shed some light or even to just say "I have no freaking clue." And yet, we finally hear from one of her clerks, and that matter for some inexplicable, unfathomable reason, continues to go untouched -- at least as of the end of this episode. WHY?!?!?!!! Sarah, you've done a phenomenal job asking pretty much all of the questions I've wondered of the different characters involved in this whole thing throughout this series....except for that. Just, why!!!! I need to know. This alibi seems like more than a misstep -- more like gross negligence and a massive disservice to the client. That alone would have me forever infuriated, if I were Adnan or his family. I guess another, related curiosity would be, did Adnan ever ask Christina if she looked into the alibi or, more importantly, why it wasn't brought up in court?? Seems that, with his personality and line of thinking in listening to him -- even how he describes himself as a teen -- he would have raised this with her at least once, if not many times.
I do not know the outcome as this is the first I'm listening. I don't know if the Innocence Project took the case and got him free but what drives me crazy is why isn't he saying emphatically Jay is a liar Jay is a liar why did Jay lie I'm not sure why ....I would be harping on that. It makes me doubt because he's too nonchalant about the only reason he is sitting in jail right now is because of Jay. No spoilers please.
But you have to understand this is edited each time to way the she is feeling about his innocence each podcast. If she feeling he's guilty, the podcast is being narrated as he's guilty. When she feels his innocence, she narrates as he is innocent.
A lawyer that can't keep her emotions in check, especially DURING a trial with the judge, is not good at all. She may have guaranteed that kid goes to jail for the rest of his life all cause she wanted to feign being offended. Seems like that really backfired on her.
Attorneys use their emotions as tools. They’re humans and make mistakes using these tools as any human would. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not sticking up for his attorney, but I agree her strategy may have had a negative effect on the case, rather than beneficial.
Christina's voice, I can't hear a word she is saying because of the noise of her, grating and shouty or monotone and hypnotic, every point she makes is lost, I literally can't work out what she is on about, can you imagine listening to that day after day? and I'm sorry but juries of cross section of the public is just not a good idea , you can't have potentially low IQ people deciding on someones fate, especially when other members of the jury can groom them into their own way of thinking, classic example when the woman juror said she over heard someone saying something about Pakistani culture and that affected her decision over the evidence.
He was picked up because he was close to the victim. I do sense discrimination in the persecution’s argument. Especially in their theory of motive. Then again in the case of the science teacher. When they mentioned early on about his pride, and being besmirched, my thought absolutely turned to honor killings. An ideology that would be pretty abstract to an Americanized teenage Muslim in my opinion. Adnon, and even his mother, have pointed out a handful of times how loosely the majority of their family regarded the stricter aspects of their religion.
I think the "embarrassed, jilted , angry ex" is a pretty common narrative used when prosecuting a former boyfriend, regardless of race or religion . Look at the evidence objectively and he is overwhelmingly the killer. Using alleged discrimination as a defence is so lazy and so cliched it is unreal . It is also the reason OJ Simpson got away with murder back in the day . Liberalism is becoming dangerous .
"Honor killings" is not apart of Islam ... you just mentioned some bullshit propaganda you've heard about Islam through tv/news gossip . Any such thin would be a messed up cultural practice .
+JPR 21 "Using alleged discrimination as a defence is so lazy and so cliched it is unreal" -- tell that to the men who killed Emmett Till, whom the jury knew full well killed him, and got away with it. "I think the "embarrassed, jilted , angry ex" is a pretty common narrative used when prosecuting a former boyfriend, regardless of race or religion" -- and it's made a lot easier when there's a pre-existing racial/cultural stereotype for a prosecutor to appeal to.
Tina Bean , your forgetting the fact that his mother & father showed up at Homecoming and began yelling at Hai that she was shaming their family. This was an honor killing. Also, listen to the mother's interview after Hai died. She was giddy in her interview.
Moral of the story: when you commit murder, don't bring your cellphone along or it will ping exactly where you murdered the person and buried their body.
@@boosqueezy2418 Moral of the story: when you commit murder, don't bring your cellphone along or it will ping exactly where you murdered the person and buried their body.
@@charismasands80 lmao he's "More sus" are u familiar with the judges and jurors who saw the clear evidence and convicted him? If u had done some research, beyong listening to an extremely flawed and biased podcast you would have found the overwhelming evidence against him. Here are some facts: www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/36t3jq/top_ten_reasons_adnan_syed_is_guilty_of_murder/
@@charismasands80 Notice how u ignored the actual facts. Facts themselves aren't biased they only reflect reality. You are commenting on youtube, which isn't a reliable source either. Does that make your comment false? Obviously not. Since u falsely think the location of facts has any bearing on their truth I'll copy and paste for you.
1: Statistical probability. Multiple studies have shown that in America the odds that Hae Min Lee, or any other female murder victim, are murdered by a random stranger is less then 10%. Over 90% of women murdered by men are murdered by someone they know. Of those, 60% are murdered by their intimate partner or ex-partner. Most often, females are “killed by males in the course of an argument between the victim and the offender.” By far the leading and most reasonable explanation about what happened to Hae Min Lee is that there was an argument between Adnan and Hae over her new relationship with Don that escalated to violence. Every other theory, particularly given the total lack of any evidence to the contrary, stretches reasonable doubt to the breaking point. IN THIS WORLD. In the multiverse of worlds, Hae is killed by some random serial killer or by a drug gang or by alien abduction. 2: The absurdity of a police conspiracy Without a doubt the police lead aspects of this case and interrogation. They had an uncooperative suspect (Jay) that they had to make cooperative. But to believe they coerced Jay’s testimony in its entirety, you have to believe they also coerced Jen’s testimony as well. You have to believe that something as substantial as finding Hae’s car was hidden from her family. You have to discount incriminating cell phone evidence, most notably the Leakin Park cell phone pings. You have to develop wild theories about how all corroborating testimony was incorrectly attributed as having occurred on Jan 13th. etc. Is all of this possible? Yes. We live in a multiverse after all. Is it reasonable? No. Any reasonable outside observer can see that the odds that Jay was not involved directly in the burial (and tangentially the murder) of Hae Min Lee are remote. And if Jay is involved, any reasonable person would have to conclude Adnan is by far the most likely perpetrator of the murder. Just as any reasonable person would find Jay and probably Jen, as involved as accessories after the fact. 3: The Incriminating Cell Phone Pings. In particular the Leakin park cell phone pings in the early evening. If Adnan had is phone at this time, which is what he claims, there is no reasonable explanation for these pings other then that the phone was near or in Leakin park which Adnan claims to have not been near. To get the phone there without Adnan’s involvement involves creating scenarios that while certainly possible in this vast multiverse, are highly unlikely in this world, and can be reasonably dismissed as improbable. That something is possible does not mean it is reasonable to assume it could have happened. It bears noting that earlier in the day the cell phone pings do not align in any way with either Jay or Adnan’s description of the morning. Very likely something else was going on. Who knows what but it is just another instance of Adnan lying about where he was and what he was doing. 4: Multiple instances of Adnan lying. Some of it deeply disturbing. Any one instance doesn’t say a lot. But taken together they paint the picture of someone who is manipulative and lacks credibility. Lying about Hae wanting to get back together with him is perhaps the most chilling. This was a lie Adnan told the School nurse on the day the news broke that Hae’s body had been found. He claimed to have spoken to Hae the night before she disappeared and told the nurse that Hae “had wanted to get back together with him, that she still loved him, but that he didn’t want to get back into the relationship in that manner - that they would always be friends.” (source trial testimony of nurse: postimg.org/image/wz59tmc2p/) Given what we know of the phone log from the evening before the murder, and the very short conversation that Adnan had that AM with Hae, this does not ring true at all. What is creepy is that it sounds very much like what Hae likely told him in the car right before he strangled her. There are of course other damning lies. Lying about asking Hae for a ride on the day of the murder (witnessed by two separate credible witnesses and confirmed by Adnan to a police officer the same day). Lying about his car being unavailable when asking for the rid. Lying about how he wasn’t bothered by their breakup. Lying about where he was and it not matching up with cell tower evidence. Stealing from the community Mosque donations. etc. 5: Hae’s letters and diary which point to Adnan not accepting the breakup well and at times feeling menaced by his behavior. 6: Adnan’s attitude towards Jay is not one of someone wrongfully accused. Adnan continues to display what can only be described as a bizarre lack of emotion towards Jay. If Adnan is innocent, Jay is lying through his teeth. How could any innocent person not be enraged by this situation? In the best possible scenario, Jay was coerced into his testimony. But here we are 15 years later and Jay continues to lie. Adan’s response that “he does not want to do the same thing to Jay as has been done to him” clearly doesn’t make sense - Jay is NOT innocent in this situation. If Adnan is innocent Jay is LYING. Andan must KNOW this. How could such a moral person as himself not insist on finding out the truth regarding Jay? Note further that if there was not a police conspiracy then Jay was clearly involved somehow in his beloved Hae’s murder. So not only does Jay kill his beloved Hae, he puts Adnan away for life. And Adnan doesn’t want to accuse him of anything? Give me a break. 7: Adnan claiming no memory of the day. This after a police call enquiring if he knew her whereabouts as she did not pick up her nephew which Adnan himself has argued was so important to Hae that he wouldn’t even think of asking her for a ride. Anyone who genuinely cared about Hae would have been deeply alarmed. Just as all her close friends and family were. And he never attempts to contact her from this point on. 8: Multiple instances of both Jay and Jenn telling third party strangers about the strangulation death of Hae Min Lee BEFORE any police interrogations. 9: Writing “I’m going to kill” on a breakup note from Hae. Assuming this was related to THIS WORLD and not the multiverse of worlds, and against the background of everything else that happened in THIS WORLD, it is pretty damning. 10: The Nisha call. Reasonable to believe it was a butt dial? Sure. Just as it is reasonable to believe it was an actual phone call in an effort to provide an alibi for his whereabouts. Namely that he was with Jay. An alibi that he could no longer rely on once Jay flipped. In conclusion, the most reasonable thing to believe happened in THIS WORLD is the following. Adnan got a ride from Hae Min Lee most likely with the intent of rekindling their relationship. They argued over their relationship and Don. Adnan in a fit of rage strangled Hae Min Lee. Adnan, with Jay’s assistance, scouted Leakin Park in the early evening and returned later to bury Hae’s body. Given how odd Jen’s testimony is i wouldn’t be surprised to find out she was involved somehow in the burial as well. Again, all in this world. In the multiverse, Adnan is innocent. This is an incredibly sad case made sadder by the misplaced efforts by many who live in the multiverse rather then this world to secure the release of a murderer who refuses to take responsibility for his actions IN THIS WORLD.
@@charismasands80 Who says it doesn't? Have u read the autopsy report? Assuming ur talking about lividity Adnan's advocates made misleading statements about the way a body must be positioned. The photos show how she was buried twisted face down. Meaning it fits Jay's description of when and how she was buried. I'm assuming now u just won't even try to refute the evidence i presented so i'll stop replying. Hopefully u will realize that Adnan's lawyers then and now present deliberately disingenuous arguments to cloud the truth and free a murderer, and the the host of Serial was naïve enough to believe them.
This is so disturbing. Judging someone based on his religion and culture without even understanding his religion and culture. But for everyone who isn't Muslim, Islam (what they see of it anyways) must seem strange. Rather than judging someone based on your preconceived notions, it would be better to try to understand them and who they are, rather than just place them in an imaginary box of your own construction...
i understand what you are saying, and in this situation it seems tragic to acknowledge, but so far the host has kinda been skirting around the reality of honour killings in pakistan. i have no prejudice against muslims, but you cant ignore the cultural differences. as was stated, honour killing is legally sanctioned in pakistan. the culture can correctly be identififed as an honour culture. unfortunately i can understand the suspicion in this situation
@@dedicatedarabicstudent3380 youre right, my apologies. the legal loophole which allowed avoidance of punishment was closed recently. however the honour killings *are* still widely practiced, only possible in a society which doesnt condemn it strongly enough. some estimates are higher than 1000 per year. pakistan has some of the worst womens rights and conditions in the modern world.
This series also highlights the non intelligence of the jurors and people of the city. The amount of things lied about, unexplained, and/or missing in this case is bonkers. How does a conviction come from this. I thought Florida was bad. The people fall for anything.
What is even worse is that the liar Jay, who acted like he did the crime, gets a good free lawyer!!!! Adnan's family has to get a lawyer to defend this crazy lie!!! This is how messed up the world is. 😔
@@pryncessdi9358 exactly. The paid lawyer was spiraling out of control and the court appointed lawyer got the win because there others involved didn't care about the car ass long as the got Adnan.
@@TLR1988 Yup! But Jay's lawyer wasn't court appointed. It was from the prosecutor. All they cared about was getting Adnan convicted by any means necessary. Our judicial system is so flawed. I'm glad he was finally vindicated, at least for a short time. 😔
If anyone is familiar w/the HBO series The Wire( based in Baltimore.) the episode where Clay Davis goes to jury trial and is clearly Guilty but is found innocent by a Baltimore jury is what I imagine the jury in this trial to be very similar to
Listening to all of this, things do not click, at all. I think both Jay and Adnan know something they won't say, but in my opinion none of them did it. Nothing fits. Not the timeline, not the motives, nothing fits. It is quite possible, that both of them actually did see Hae that day. Maybe there was a conflict, maybe something happened that they don't want others to hear about. I'm curious as to how much of Hae's body they've examined. Was there sexual activity? Was there anything in her blood, as in, did she consume drugs as well? There is no information on this. I understand she's strangled, but do you not examine her clothes for DNA evidence (yeah I know at that time the DNA examination was not that great, but so many cases kept clothes and/or other stuff and were solved years later). It does feel like they just wanted to convict somebody, anybody, just to get the case done with. That is messed up honestly. Quite possibly, she was killed by a serial killer, but at the same time these two are hiding stuff even apart from the lying.
same here i cannot believe there was not enough evidence in the scene to gather more relevant information, and that there is more evidence in her ex boyfriend that does not even remember the day??
The thing in this case for me that seals Adnans guilt, is the fact he never called her cell when he heard she was missing. He went frm calling her all the time to nothing ......
Gareth Kirkbride same it's the only little thing that's stuck with me to the point of thinking nah why would you be the only friend who was that close to not call her and say, where are you everyone's worried.
we finished listening to the 3rd episode in english yesterday, friday, and now it's saturday and i'm only on episode 10, but ep. 3 was as far as we were gonna go in english
the parents say he didnt do it but if u asked them about him dating a girl just before he was convicted they probably say he hasnt got one ...they do not know their son at all
That misses the best part! I personally like the doggy style part.... You know, where the police dogs search for the body. It's fascinating, all of those scent detectors in a dog's nose...
I have been told to not speak ill for the dead but.... OMG, Gutierrez makes me wanna scream .... She makes me so angry, just by speaking... Her voice and the pattern of speaks just rubs me the wrong way.... Ahhhh O_O
Just discovered this today and I wonder if Murders In The Building (the funny show on Hulu) took their theme song/jingle from this podcast bc it sounds almost alike
Also, using Islam in this case is pointless. Why, because Islam does not accept any dating, relationship apart from marriage- and Pakistani culture is the same. This is why it doesn't make sense. If he were married to her, and if he were the religious Muslim at the time, this is something we could talk about. But how do you connect a guy that smokes weed and sleeps around with the religion that is his only because he was born to Muslim parents... If that were the case, Adnan would've killed all other girls he slept with/had relationships with. I'm not even sure what to think anymore, but if Adnan is shady, then this whole case and procedure are S H A D Y as FUCK.
As a hindu not a muslim .. i can say this killing someone and being a muslim/hindu/christian etc are really different things! Evidence, evidence, evidence!!!where is it? And yes eachculture thinks a littke differently and we all see thingsin a cultural context! Like i am a non religiousperson..but good karma and bad karma is part of my thinking context .. Why ? Coz i am hindu! Do you get it? Its not heaven or hell but Karma! Like do good Karma? Why if i dont believe in any religion? Bcoz humans cant be belief systemless! And the belief system is theculture .. may change ones behaviour but commiting murder is too many steps away ..
I agree, but I think SK is trying to mislead listeners..this is pre-9/11 there really wasn't that much prejudice specialy in this case..she's trying to pull off a Cochran n OJ,quit playing the race victim card..they convicted him cuz of the testimonies and evidence like cellphone data,not for his religion
It’s clear as day that jay did it, maybe adnan knew about it but jay did it 💯. The fact that the person that “found” the body was associated to Jay in some way, the fact he knew where the car was, everything in the narrative connected to jay in some way, his lies, his friends stories, nothing was adding up in my head NOTHING!!! Not even how or when adnan got in hais car or why she would wait for a bus if she had a car?! How can the police be this stupid? It’s either they were stupid or they were racist, which shouldn’t come off as a shock. The fact that there were 7 out of 10 jurors that were black? No offence but they are the most racist, they would never put their own kind in prison even if they said I’m guilty! You don’t think those jurors were placed there strategically? This whole case is a sad case tbh. Nothing was investigated, no one was interrogated, no in depth testing.. Literally nothing! But they took this kid and locked him away for some ‘he said, she said’.
Pretty much!! They put him away based on the murders testimony. They ate up his lies when none of it made sense. Even the Nisha call, Adnan, Jay & Nisha all said dude was working in the video store at the time of the call. Jay didn't start working there until the end of Jan after Hai disappeared. Jay definitely called her by accident and maybe her mom or someone picked up and didn't hear anyone talking so they hung up after 1 min.
But what was Jay's motive and how did he do it. Under the Jay did it scenario, you have to presume that Hae left Woodlawn HS at about 2:30 or so. She was supposed to drive directly to pick up her cousin. How did Jay murder Hae in this very short time? He had Adnan's car. Did he follow Hae and somehow ambush her? What did he do with her body then? We know that he picked up Adnan and took him to track practice. Did he tell Adnan that he killed Hae? There were also numerous phone calls by Jay which place him somewhere else when Hae was killed. He was with Jen Pusateri for some of the time. Did Adnan then help Jay bury Hae? The Jay killed Hae theory falls apart under close scrutiny. The evidence points directly to Adnan. I have no idea why anyone thinks otherwise.
Agreed..Totally ends the speculation of another suspect. It HAS to be either Adnan or Jay or some combination. I believe Jay for the most part and think that Adnan is guilty.
@@pryncessdi9358 But what was his motive? And how did he kill Hae in the very short time frame after she left Woodlawn, but before she picked up her cousin. If Adnan did not do it, Hae must have left Woodlawn, unscathed and alone, and drove to pick up her cousin. She did not pick her cousin up, so if Jae did it, he must have killed her while she was driving to pick her up. Jay had Adnan's car and was with Jen Pusateri for much of this time. Did Jay follow Hae from Woodlawn, wait until she pulled over, strangle her, then meet up with Adnan to take him to track practice? Did he tell Adnan that he killed Hae. If so, why didn't Adnan say so. The only one who could have been in Hae's car in this very short time was Adnan. Adnan admitted to asking her for a ride and two other witnesses corroborated this. Adnan is clearly guilty. I have no idea why anyone thinks otherwise.
One detail that probably everybody would miss, and that I find fascinating, only because I’ve (oddly enough) been in this situation: Adnan expresses genuine affection for his defense attorney, Christina Gutierrez, despite the fact that her unprofessional behaviors likely resulted in his conviction. Her outburst in the first trial, where conditions seemed more favorable to Adnan, resulted in a mistrial because she mouthed off to the judge, and then, by the second trial, she was too messed up to be effective. And yet, this many years later, in prison, he mostly remembers that she was asking him how he was doing, helping him get his skin medication, showing genuine concern for him . . . I bring this up, because if he thought that her show of concern, as opposed to her effectiveness in the courtroom, was what was memorable about her, this says a lot about the home in which he grew up, and how much genuine concern his parents showed for him. Not only did he grow up in a home with substantial cultural demands on his behavior, but also, he was a middle child, and middle children are famously overlooked. A person from a truly safe, loving background, would have been angry that her behaviors were taking him away from his home and family, instead of acting as if she WAS his home and family. So then, take that idea, and overlay it on the idea that the woman that he truly loves, that his family does not approve of, breaks up with him. He doesn’t have a “Ms. Gutierrez” at the time, to guide him through that, and his family sure isn’t going to help him, either. All he has to guide him, is bad feelings, and possibly some amount of cultural background that suggests to him that murdering her might be okay. While this is not factual evidence that he committed the crime, it does address the question of motive, in a more specific way than it has been so far. As in, the idea that Adnan has this many overwhelming “teenage” feelings, and so few resources to deal with those feelings, creates the state of mind in which even a “good kid” might kill a person. I also find this, all-around, to be an amusing “parable” in how drugs ruin lives. Adnan himself admits, in a prior episode, that he shouldn’t have gotten involved with Jay and his friends. (Also, if you listen to this part, Adnan basically admits that he did it, because he has to walk a more direct-sounding statement back to the comment about Jay and his friends.) If Adnan hadn’t been involved with Jay, largely because Jay had drugs, Adnan and Jay would have never gotten in a situation in which they cooked up a plot to murder Hae. And, if Jay hadn’t been selling drugs, and hadn’t feared prison time for that, he wouldn’t have ratted Adnan out. And if Christina Gutierrez didn’t have a drug problem (which they don’t talk about, but, come on - why would be be so “absentee” from work, and be asking for such large sums of money, in cash, for work that she wasn’t doing), she might have been more effective in defending Adnan, and spared him from so much prison time. And yes, I am concluding that Adnan and Jay plotted together on this. If you listen closely to what they actually say (and not what people say about them), over the entire series, it becomes pretty obvious. Like, why does Adnan not call Jay a liar, or blame Jay specifically for his situation? Probably because he knows that they both had a part in this, and if he blames Jay, he’ll end up going down a path in which he will have to explain exactly how and why Jay is lying, when there is already so much evidence that he was with Jay most of the day when the crime was committed, and that will only make him look more guilty. Why does Adnan not have a good alibi for where he was on the day of the crime, and, on top of that, he never has a good explanation for any of the inconsistencies in the story, that suggest his guilt? Sure, Jay’s story is wandering and untrue at times, but the main points - Adnan said he was going to kill Hae, he killed Hae, and then he enlisted Jay to help with the cover-up - haven’t changed, and are very incriminating. And, you can’t hold Jay’s lesser factual inconsistencies against him, when you consider that Jay was involved with a lot of other illegal activities, that may have implicated a lot of other people if he told the whole truth - like, for example, whoever he was buying drugs from / selling drugs to, the entire afternoon that he had Adnan’s car and cell phone, which is why that part of the timeline doesn’t make sense. Adnan has no alibi for the period of time when they were burying the body, which is also the part of Jay’s story that is the most consistent, because that would be the part of his story when he wasn’t running around dealing drugs, so he would have a lot less to lie about. It’s also amusing, in this aspect of the case, that Adnan isn’t all that upset about Asia’s alibi that he was at the library when the state claimed that the murder occurred, wasn’t part of the trial. At the time, he might not have realized how useful that information would have been, because he didn’t know what the state’s case was, or what Jay’s testimony would be, and he KNEW that he killed her at or near the library. When it later turned out that that wasn’t the state’s theory (because, call records, and need for Jay to tell a story about that afternoon that would confess the fewest crimes, and implicate the fewest people, hence throwing the Best Buy in there, because, how were they going to figure out who might have been at the Best Buy at that time, to either corroborate or dispute the story?), then the “library” alibi might have been useful. But, at the time, when he knew that he killed Hae at or near the library, it was just a flimsy story to say “somebody saw me at the library, studying, and totally NOT committing any crimes.” I have mixed feelings about this whole thing. I’m convinced that Adnan and Jay were both involved, in ways that they will never fully disclose. The investigation and the prosecution were sloppy in many ways, but also, so are the investigation and the prosecution in many cases, because the level of time, effort, and attention to detail that are required to construct a truly airtight case against a person, are beyond the capacity of most of the people that are involved in these things. At the end of the day, despite these flaws in the process, usually, the “common sense” answer wins, and usually, this is the correct answer. But, that said, those that are experts on the process, and that can devote time and effort to attacking those flaws in the process, and also, who manage to gain influence in the criminal justice system (which, inherently, is the purpose of having a lawyer, and a “good” one, because a “good” lawyer, is a lawyer that has gained that influence in the system), can eventually overturn a “common sense” conviction. Adnan’s apparent release, in a couple days, as a result of this type of effort, is a case in point. I do think that Adnan has been in there for a long time, he made this mistake when he was very young, and, conceptually, he deserves a chance to move forward in life. On the other hand, because he continues to maintain his innocence, at least for the sake of public appearance, and because prison doesn’t teach you much, except how to be a better criminal, I question how much he is willing to admit to himself how much responsibility he has for what happened, and, therefore, if he really will move forward in life, or if he will continue with the same behaviors. I wouldn’t be surprised if, before too long, he’s charged with a similarly violent crime, against another woman. One last curiosity - I also wouldn’t be surprised if Adnan and Jay were at least vaguely “gay” for each other. I say this because not only do they aggressively downplay their relationship, and not only do they decline every opportunity to say anything truly spiteful about each other, but also, this is exactly the sort of relationship that might have instigated the crime in the first place. Hae breaks up with Adnan, Adnan and Jay get to talking about this, and Jay, just like “the other woman” would say, says, “fuck that bitch.” And then Adnan, feeling supported on this, says, “yeah, I’m gonna kill that bitch.” They’re both on drugs, they’re not thinking clearly, and, before you know it, Hae ends up dead - and Adnan shows Jay the body, to “impress” him. This would explain why Jay has the level of remorse that he does - because, for somebody who just helped to dig a hole, he seems AWFULLY upset about his role in this - the level of “upset” that one might have, if one felt as though one played a part in instigating the crime itself. And Jay, liking a lot of “white” things, already doesn’t conform to a “black” cultural model - so why would he conform to a sexual norm? For Adnan’s part, his culture is so repressive that he can’t even date a Korean woman - so, would he want to admit that he may have sexual interest in a black man? All thoughts and theories . . . But, if these things are true, then it makes a lot more sense, of things that, to this point, are totally confusing and contradictory.
This is pure BS!!! Adnan didn't have any repressive cultural issues!! Dude wasn't a killer! Period! He was hurt by the break up but he understood and kept it moving. He was a cool laid back person. He wasn't interested in Jay romantically at all so he didn't need to impress him. 😒 Y'all really make up a bunch of ish for no reason! Bottom line is Jay has the reason to lie and cover his tracks. Why didn't Adnan care about changing his clothes if they just buried a body??? Why did they use Jay's shovels? Why did he have to go back and wipe them off. Why was Jay all jumpy when he saw Jen and Adnan was laid back?? Jay knew where her car was too. Jay had tooo many details, dude killed her. Open and shut case.
But wait.the girlfriend of Jay is called Stephanie, as in the prom princess who was mentioned in Hae Mins diary? Who was somehow dumped by Adnan to be with Hae? Crazy theory: Stephanie was in love with Adan and more than jealous of Hae, so she got somehow in contact with Jay, ending up planning to murder Hae Min and blaming it on Adan as a punishment? The dna found on the wheel in Haes car, could be Stephanies, who parked it there, so the story would make sense?
I am American, and was raised as part of Roman Catholic faith. I have never been invested in this religion. If anything, I was compelled to rebel against the values that had been instilled in me. Especially as a teen. As soon as I was old enough to pull away, I did.
I think everyone comes to these kinds of conclusions because they're listening to something being covered in a way that makes you want it to be juicy. You can't have listened to 8+ hours of a podcast about evidence in a case and it actually turn out that the original person did it. Why would something like that be presented to you in such a compelling manner? That doesn't fit with all of the murder mysteries and TV shows on people being acquitted. Honestly I think Adnon might have done it. I dont know that there should have been a conviction with the evidence but the system is far from the ideal we want it to be. I don't think Jay or anyone else in the story did it.
This case unfolded after September 11th. I wouldn't want to be a Muslim in front of a jury because of the hatred that was whipped up. A good defense attorney like Casey Anthony's lawyer would have gotten Adnan off.
Othering ALWAYS contributes to police investigations involving minorities. Not always in the conscious conspiratorial sense but subconsciously and pervasively.
She's just so... damn unlikable. I'm sorry. I'll bet she was actually a great lawyer but my god! That constant screaming... or her annoying way of pursuing questions, or that slow tempo talking that sounds as if it's going somewhere but never does... yikes. Adnan deserved better.
The racist, anti-muslim narrative is very emotional, but are the cellphone towers also anti-muslim? The podcast is so nice and involving that we forget that Adnan's phone pinged exactly at Leakin Park, exactly when Jay said that they had buried the girl's body. And it pinged there just 2 on that day. Never more. How is it possible? What a coincidence, uh??? The podcast is nice, that's my second time listening to it, after 4 years and after watching the story on Crime Weekly. It was Crime Weekly that brought the cellphone tower facts to life and then I understood that unless there's an explanation to that, Adnan's innocence is simply an impossibility. It's just not possible and until before I listened to Crime Weekly I was inclined to believe that he was innocent or at least that the level of reasonable doubt was too high. Serial and Undisclosed are not unbiased. I loved Serial, but it is a very romanticised view of the case and they just brush through the cellphone towers like they were irrelevant. Even if the data is not 100% reliable, that would be too much of a coincidence to have the phones ping exactly where and when they did. Please, folks, open your eyes! Sarah Koenig, you're an amazing story teller, but you're not telling the whole truth. The truth is right in front of your eyes, but you've decided not to see it.
Why are you repeating the same thing on every episode. Go and watch Adnan Syed's press conference to know how cell phone data wasn't reliable... read the affidavit written by cell phone expert Abraham Waranowits.
I'm surprised this lawyer was referred to as the pit bull on the pant leg of justice when she speaks like this. Idk if it's just me but it makes her sound very unsure of herself and her client. I do think Adnan is innocent tho
Such an awful defense. “Someone else did it.” No….THIS person did it, or THAT person did it. Good Lord. If you want to study a great defense attorney (I didn’t say a good person lol), study Jose Baez. I don’t condone injustice or lying, but that man creates a story and TELLS it to the point where reasonable doubt is always created.
family seems a bit delusional with the strong racism angle considering they were accepted as immigrants - they should shoulder dome blame here for failing to acknowledge that their kids would somewhat be westernized through school and lifestyle, how much of their strict anti American sentiment contributed to his sneaking around and being secretive?
The fact that many of the people who remained on the jury will openly admit that they allowed their bias is why they presumed his guilt is very telling... I think if you all were the one in the hot seat youd be singing a different song when it comes to racial discrimination. Not to say its the only reason but it 100% infected the actions of those judging him
I hate the way christina shouts everything she says
The weirdest part of this is still the hiker/driver on the side of the road that found the body. When you look at the original pictures of her buried it’s hard to believe that a guy taking a piss can just look over and find it so easily. I really wish Christina did a better job bringing this up, he’s a very critical witness and there’s so many questions attached to him.
He was running around naked in the woods
Where did you find pictures? Cuz I can't find them
they don’t talk about it because it’s weird, this guy would run deep in the woods naked
Wow, I would do anything to shut this attorney up
What really scares me, is the fact that if Adnan is innocent, a guilty man is out there, knowing the truth. Knowing it was him and not Adnan, and not feeling guilty at the fact that he put this kid in jail for life. Or about the life he cut short, the families he tore apart, the friendships he culled. A part of me hopes that someday Adnan will be proved innocent, if he is of course. And that he will be able to live a normal life and be happy.
@YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM YOU ARE THE MONSTER agreed. having listened to the podcast up to this point, it comes down to who you believe- only one of two people- jay or adnan. jay knew things about the case that meant he was involved or he did it. for me, even though elements of his story are inconsistent, they are more explainable than the facts that point to adnans guilt.
@Yin Kami whoever is out there(if their still alive) has been Scott free for 21 years now
Bro if he gets out he’s on parole for life dog his life will never be normal again and this is his only life that’s so fucked up fr that this is his only life and he’s put in a box for it like he can’t enjoy anything
@@daboy1246 he won’t be on parole if he is acquitted. He’ll only be on parole if he has time served and is let out. If it ever gets a retrial and he is found not guilty, that’s it. Until he files a civil lawsuit, but then his attorney will be handling that.
Cereal killa gonna eat those rice krispies and keep walkin no sweat no remorse
my biggest question is why didn't the cops wire Jay, like what most cops do, and have Jay go talk to Adnan about the incident and catch Adnan using his own words. I mean, any cop would try this tactic first before making a full assumption. Lets be real, cops tried to tie this down to Adnan before even having all the facts. they made up their minds from the start. I dont know if Adnan did it or not, but I do know the cops on this case did nothing right and everything wrong. A competent lawyer would have gotten Adnan out based on just REASONABLE DOUBT and lack of evidence. If the case goes back to court, that's what it will be seen as, a case full of reasonable doubt. you are supposed to go to prison based on NOT A SINGLE DOUBT left in the air. yet here we are, every year we release someone who been in prison for decades that was innocent.
That’s the problem with your statement. Christina was an excellent lawyer. Her past and even then. However around the Time of this trial she was slipping and you could tell of her odd behavior. Any lawyer probably would have defended him well. The problem is when you take most uneducated people and put them on a panel where you discuss facts, they can easily be swayed and instead of forming their own opinions, they would just listen and form their opinion around another’s opinion. Is honestly how a lot of juries work. Military Courts have the best judges and juries. Only officers can be jurors. Well educated people who can be objective and subjective about evidence. That’s my opinion about it all.
Well they don’t always wire people. Each state has different laws regarding consent and recordings. I don’t know particulars for Maryland. But if Maryland had a 2 party consent law, that would mean that adnan would have to agree to being recorded, which defeats the purpose. You can get a judge to give you a pass on this and that would allow them to let jay record adnan without adnans consent, but this trial moved so fast and they thought they had an iron clad case that they probably didn’t see any reason to do that, idk.
But his lawyer does sound like she’s fucked up and has the most annoying voice on the planet. She definitely fucked up his case somewhere along the way, either knowingly or on accident. I think she threw the case personally.
@@jameselliott9866 They had the complete story on a silver platter, why wire Jay?
because jay is white
@@surfac3596 I don't think Jay is white though..
Highly recommended not waiting till last minute to listen to all of these for class 🥴
LMFAOO me rn
1.5x speed rn
Lillian Jones girl- LMFAOOOO goodluck
Lillian Jones jokes on you I’m on 2x speed
mannnn too late the summaries was just not enough now im here😭
It's so clear that Jay is suspicious and trying to hide something...
Yes I did not do it
@@adnanahmed316 yo what up bro!
@@j0nnicage just chilling in jail bro
@@adnanahmed316 HAHHHAHAH you bad ass
@@adnanahmed316this isn’t you fr right ??
i feel like if adnan had a different lawyer he wouldve been free
That lawyer sounds like she is loaded on vodka in a bar
I'm hoping they cover this later in the series but I think the reporter should talk to the officers and prison mates at Adnon's prison to see if he'd ever admitted to them or shown behavior in prison that could give some insight.
ur an actual genius, this would def contribute to figuring out the truth abt the case,
The fact that Adnan said to Jay "Only Allah knows" is the prove that Jay is such bullshit. Adnan was not a very religious kid. Muslims dont just randomly talk about Allah. Especially to a non muslim person. Jay specifically included that detail because he knows the court would take it the another way.
Exactly! You keep your religious views to yourself.
Seems fake as hell jay is a compulsive liar
In desperate times, people call on or speak to a higher power. You don't have to be religious.
nah, non-religious speak of “God” and “Allah” daily. but i don’t blame his religion. i blame adnan himself.
@@boosqueezy2418i doubt he would call on god if he stated he wasnt really muslim dawg
Really think it was indeed a misstep for his lawyer not to put more emphasis on the alibi or even the shaky timeline the prosecution was putting forward
His lawyer and her mouth sure did not help his defense
I have been wondering for a while whether Sarah ever got a hold of any of Christina's law clerks, assistants, etc. to ask them some of the questions we obviously can't ask her -- most notably about the Asia alibi and why it *seems* that was never pursued. And perhaps that was something only Christina knew or would know the answer to, but maybe not!! I still would REALLY like it to be brought up with those who worked closely with her on this case, to give them the opportunity to shed some light or even to just say "I have no freaking clue." And yet, we finally hear from one of her clerks, and that matter for some inexplicable, unfathomable reason, continues to go untouched -- at least as of the end of this episode. WHY?!?!?!!!
Sarah, you've done a phenomenal job asking pretty much all of the questions I've wondered of the different characters involved in this whole thing throughout this series....except for that. Just, why!!!! I need to know. This alibi seems like more than a misstep -- more like gross negligence and a massive disservice to the client. That alone would have me forever infuriated, if I were Adnan or his family.
I guess another, related curiosity would be, did Adnan ever ask Christina if she looked into the alibi or, more importantly, why it wasn't brought up in court?? Seems that, with his personality and line of thinking in listening to him -- even how he describes himself as a teen -- he would have raised this with her at least once, if not many times.
I do not know the outcome as this is the first I'm listening. I don't know if the Innocence Project took the case and got him free but what drives me crazy is why isn't he saying emphatically Jay is a liar Jay is a liar why did Jay lie I'm not sure why ....I would be harping on that. It makes me doubt because he's too nonchalant about the only reason he is sitting in jail right now is because of Jay. No spoilers please.
But you have to understand this is edited each time to way the she is feeling about his innocence each podcast. If she feeling he's guilty, the podcast is being narrated as he's guilty. When she feels his innocence, she narrates as he is innocent.
Those jurors are terrible
A lawyer that can't keep her emotions in check, especially DURING a trial with the judge, is not good at all. She may have guaranteed that kid goes to jail for the rest of his life all cause she wanted to feign being offended. Seems like that really backfired on her.
Attorneys use their emotions as tools. They’re humans and make mistakes using these tools as any human would. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not sticking up for his attorney, but I agree her strategy may have had a negative effect on the case, rather than beneficial.
Christina's voice, I can't hear a word she is saying because of the noise of her, grating and shouty or monotone and hypnotic, every point she makes is lost, I literally can't work out what she is on about, can you imagine listening to that day after day? and I'm sorry but juries of cross section of the public is just not a good idea , you can't have potentially low IQ people deciding on someones fate, especially when other members of the jury can groom them into their own way of thinking, classic example when the woman juror said she over heard someone saying something about Pakistani culture and that affected her decision over the evidence.
This case reminds me so much of HBO's The Night Of
Yes!
He was picked up because he was close to the victim. I do sense discrimination in the persecution’s argument. Especially in their theory of motive. Then again in the case of the science teacher. When they mentioned early on about his pride, and being besmirched, my thought absolutely turned to honor killings. An ideology that would be pretty abstract to an Americanized teenage Muslim in my opinion. Adnon, and even his mother, have pointed out a handful of times how loosely the majority of their family regarded the stricter aspects of their religion.
I think the "embarrassed, jilted , angry ex" is a pretty common narrative used when prosecuting a former boyfriend, regardless of race or religion . Look at the evidence objectively and he is overwhelmingly the killer. Using alleged discrimination as a defence is so lazy and so cliched it is unreal . It is also the reason OJ Simpson got away with murder back in the day . Liberalism is becoming dangerous .
"Honor killings" is not apart of Islam ... you just mentioned some bullshit propaganda you've heard about Islam through tv/news gossip . Any such thin would be a messed up cultural practice .
+JPR 21 "Using alleged discrimination as a defence is so lazy and so cliched it is unreal" -- tell that to the men who killed Emmett Till, whom the jury knew full well killed him, and got away with it.
"I think the "embarrassed, jilted , angry ex" is a pretty common narrative used when prosecuting a former boyfriend, regardless of race or religion" -- and it's made a lot easier when there's a pre-existing racial/cultural stereotype for a prosecutor to appeal to.
Tina Bean , your forgetting the fact that his mother & father showed up at Homecoming and began yelling at Hai that she was shaming their family. This was an honor killing. Also, listen to the mother's interview after Hai died. She was giddy in her interview.
@@Bintbladi Whatever, they had a case in the US where the mom and dad killed their own teenage daughter because she shamed the family.
Is it just me or does anyone else picture Christina as Joey's agent, Estelle ? From friends?
Yessss!
My goddd i thought the same!
Now I definitely do
Moral of story of this episode: Whatever you do, don't ever get accused of murder.
whatever you do, don’t commit murder
Moral of the story: when you commit murder, don't bring your cellphone along or it will ping exactly where you murdered the person and buried their body.
@@boosqueezy2418 Moral of the story: when you commit murder, don't bring your cellphone along or it will ping exactly where you murdered the person and buried their body.
If Christina didn't have shouted during their side bar with the judge Adnan life could have been different
glad she did or a murderer could have gone free.
@@charismasands80 lmao he's "More sus" are u familiar with the judges and jurors who saw the clear evidence and convicted him? If u had done some research, beyong listening to an extremely flawed and biased podcast you would have found the overwhelming evidence against him. Here are some facts: www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/36t3jq/top_ten_reasons_adnan_syed_is_guilty_of_murder/
@@charismasands80 Notice how u ignored the actual facts. Facts themselves aren't biased they only reflect reality. You are commenting on youtube, which isn't a reliable source either. Does that make your comment false? Obviously not. Since u falsely think the location of facts has any bearing on their truth I'll copy and paste for you.
1: Statistical probability.
Multiple studies have shown that in America the odds that Hae Min Lee, or any other female murder victim, are murdered by a random stranger is less then 10%. Over 90% of women murdered by men are murdered by someone they know. Of those, 60% are murdered by their intimate partner or ex-partner. Most often, females are “killed by males in the course of an argument between the victim and the offender.” By far the leading and most reasonable explanation about what happened to Hae Min Lee is that there was an argument between Adnan and Hae over her new relationship with Don that escalated to violence. Every other theory, particularly given the total lack of any evidence to the contrary, stretches reasonable doubt to the breaking point. IN THIS WORLD. In the multiverse of worlds, Hae is killed by some random serial killer or by a drug gang or by alien abduction.
2: The absurdity of a police conspiracy
Without a doubt the police lead aspects of this case and interrogation. They had an uncooperative suspect (Jay) that they had to make cooperative. But to believe they coerced Jay’s testimony in its entirety, you have to believe they also coerced Jen’s testimony as well. You have to believe that something as substantial as finding Hae’s car was hidden from her family. You have to discount incriminating cell phone evidence, most notably the Leakin Park cell phone pings. You have to develop wild theories about how all corroborating testimony was incorrectly attributed as having occurred on Jan 13th. etc. Is all of this possible? Yes. We live in a multiverse after all. Is it reasonable? No. Any reasonable outside observer can see that the odds that Jay was not involved directly in the burial (and tangentially the murder) of Hae Min Lee are remote. And if Jay is involved, any reasonable person would have to conclude Adnan is by far the most likely perpetrator of the murder. Just as any reasonable person would find Jay and probably Jen, as involved as accessories after the fact.
3: The Incriminating Cell Phone Pings.
In particular the Leakin park cell phone pings in the early evening. If Adnan had is phone at this time, which is what he claims, there is no reasonable explanation for these pings other then that the phone was near or in Leakin park which Adnan claims to have not been near. To get the phone there without Adnan’s involvement involves creating scenarios that while certainly possible in this vast multiverse, are highly unlikely in this world, and can be reasonably dismissed as improbable. That something is possible does not mean it is reasonable to assume it could have happened. It bears noting that earlier in the day the cell phone pings do not align in any way with either Jay or Adnan’s description of the morning. Very likely something else was going on. Who knows what but it is just another instance of Adnan lying about where he was and what he was doing.
4: Multiple instances of Adnan lying. Some of it deeply disturbing.
Any one instance doesn’t say a lot. But taken together they paint the picture of someone who is manipulative and lacks credibility. Lying about Hae wanting to get back together with him is perhaps the most chilling. This was a lie Adnan told the School nurse on the day the news broke that Hae’s body had been found. He claimed to have spoken to Hae the night before she disappeared and told the nurse that Hae “had wanted to get back together with him, that she still loved him, but that he didn’t want to get back into the relationship in that manner - that they would always be friends.” (source trial testimony of nurse: postimg.org/image/wz59tmc2p/) Given what we know of the phone log from the evening before the murder, and the very short conversation that Adnan had that AM with Hae, this does not ring true at all. What is creepy is that it sounds very much like what Hae likely told him in the car right before he strangled her. There are of course other damning lies. Lying about asking Hae for a ride on the day of the murder (witnessed by two separate credible witnesses and confirmed by Adnan to a police officer the same day). Lying about his car being unavailable when asking for the rid. Lying about how he wasn’t bothered by their breakup. Lying about where he was and it not matching up with cell tower evidence. Stealing from the community Mosque donations. etc.
5: Hae’s letters and diary which point to Adnan not accepting the breakup well and at times feeling menaced by his behavior.
6: Adnan’s attitude towards Jay is not one of someone wrongfully accused.
Adnan continues to display what can only be described as a bizarre lack of emotion towards Jay. If Adnan is innocent, Jay is lying through his teeth. How could any innocent person not be enraged by this situation? In the best possible scenario, Jay was coerced into his testimony. But here we are 15 years later and Jay continues to lie. Adan’s response that “he does not want to do the same thing to Jay as has been done to him” clearly doesn’t make sense - Jay is NOT innocent in this situation. If Adnan is innocent Jay is LYING. Andan must KNOW this. How could such a moral person as himself not insist on finding out the truth regarding Jay? Note further that if there was not a police conspiracy then Jay was clearly involved somehow in his beloved Hae’s murder. So not only does Jay kill his beloved Hae, he puts Adnan away for life. And Adnan doesn’t want to accuse him of anything? Give me a break.
7: Adnan claiming no memory of the day.
This after a police call enquiring if he knew her whereabouts as she did not pick up her nephew which Adnan himself has argued was so important to Hae that he wouldn’t even think of asking her for a ride. Anyone who genuinely cared about Hae would have been deeply alarmed. Just as all her close friends and family were. And he never attempts to contact her from this point on.
8: Multiple instances of both Jay and Jenn telling third party strangers about the strangulation death of Hae Min Lee BEFORE any police interrogations.
9: Writing “I’m going to kill” on a breakup note from Hae.
Assuming this was related to THIS WORLD and not the multiverse of worlds, and against the background of everything else that happened in THIS WORLD, it is pretty damning.
10: The Nisha call.
Reasonable to believe it was a butt dial? Sure. Just as it is reasonable to believe it was an actual phone call in an effort to provide an alibi for his whereabouts. Namely that he was with Jay. An alibi that he could no longer rely on once Jay flipped.
In conclusion, the most reasonable thing to believe happened in THIS WORLD is the following. Adnan got a ride from Hae Min Lee most likely with the intent of rekindling their relationship. They argued over their relationship and Don. Adnan in a fit of rage strangled Hae Min Lee. Adnan, with Jay’s assistance, scouted Leakin Park in the early evening and returned later to bury Hae’s body. Given how odd Jen’s testimony is i wouldn’t be surprised to find out she was involved somehow in the burial as well. Again, all in this world. In the multiverse, Adnan is innocent.
This is an incredibly sad case made sadder by the misplaced efforts by many who live in the multiverse rather then this world to secure the release of a murderer who refuses to take responsibility for his actions IN THIS WORLD.
@@charismasands80 Who says it doesn't? Have u read the autopsy report? Assuming ur talking about lividity Adnan's advocates made misleading statements about the way a body must be positioned. The photos show how she was buried twisted face down. Meaning it fits Jay's description of when and how she was buried. I'm assuming now u just won't even try to refute the evidence i presented so i'll stop replying. Hopefully u will realize that Adnan's lawyers then and now present deliberately disingenuous arguments to cloud the truth and free a murderer, and the the host of Serial was naïve enough to believe them.
This is so disturbing. Judging someone based on his religion and culture without even understanding his religion and culture. But for everyone who isn't Muslim, Islam (what they see of it anyways) must seem strange. Rather than judging someone based on your preconceived notions, it would be better to try to understand them and who they are, rather than just place them in an imaginary box of your own construction...
Ahmad Philips This is so sad, Alexa play despacito
i understand what you are saying, and in this situation it seems tragic to acknowledge, but so far the host has kinda been skirting around the reality of honour killings in pakistan. i have no prejudice against muslims, but you cant ignore the cultural differences. as was stated, honour killing is legally sanctioned in pakistan. the culture can correctly be identififed as an honour culture. unfortunately i can understand the suspicion in this situation
and pakistan has an awful human rights record, womens rights especially
Tane can you provide proof that honor killings are legal in Pakistan ? Because it’s a complete lie
@@dedicatedarabicstudent3380 youre right, my apologies. the legal loophole which allowed avoidance of punishment was closed recently. however the honour killings *are* still widely practiced, only possible in a society which doesnt condemn it strongly enough. some estimates are higher than 1000 per year.
pakistan has some of the worst womens rights and conditions in the modern world.
This series also highlights the non intelligence of the jurors and people of the city. The amount of things lied about, unexplained, and/or missing in this case is bonkers. How does a conviction come from this. I thought Florida was bad. The people fall for anything.
What is even worse is that the liar Jay, who acted like he did the crime, gets a good free lawyer!!!! Adnan's family has to get a lawyer to defend this crazy lie!!! This is how messed up the world is. 😔
@@pryncessdi9358 exactly. The paid lawyer was spiraling out of control and the court appointed lawyer got the win because there others involved didn't care about the car ass long as the got Adnan.
@@TLR1988 Yup! But Jay's lawyer wasn't court appointed. It was from the prosecutor. All they cared about was getting Adnan convicted by any means necessary. Our judicial system is so flawed. I'm glad he was finally vindicated, at least for a short time. 😔
If anyone is familiar w/the HBO series The Wire( based in Baltimore.) the episode where Clay Davis goes to jury trial and is clearly Guilty but is found innocent by a Baltimore jury is what I imagine the jury in this trial to be very similar to
Clear conflict of interest and a witness that has lied before. But it’s overuled?
Listening to all of this, things do not click, at all. I think both Jay and Adnan know something they won't say, but in my opinion none of them did it. Nothing fits. Not the timeline, not the motives, nothing fits.
It is quite possible, that both of them actually did see Hae that day. Maybe there was a conflict, maybe something happened that they don't want others to hear about. I'm curious as to how much of Hae's body they've examined. Was there sexual activity? Was there anything in her blood, as in, did she consume drugs as well? There is no information on this. I understand she's strangled, but do you not examine her clothes for DNA evidence (yeah I know at that time the DNA examination was not that great, but so many cases kept clothes and/or other stuff and were solved years later). It does feel like they just wanted to convict somebody, anybody, just to get the case done with. That is messed up honestly.
Quite possibly, she was killed by a serial killer, but at the same time these two are hiding stuff even apart from the lying.
same here i cannot believe there was not enough evidence in the scene to gather more relevant information, and that there is more evidence in her ex boyfriend that does not even remember the day??
They did do a rape kit. There was no semen found
Bro I’m literally listening to this right now in moorhead jr high lol
Hi;) mrs I’m right in front of you😆
Why is she yelling. She's so annoying.
marilynn nesheiwat No u
The thing in this case for me that seals Adnans guilt, is the fact he never called her cell when he heard she was missing. He went frm calling her all the time to nothing ......
Gareth Kirkbride same it's the only little thing that's stuck with me to the point of thinking nah why would you be the only friend who was that close to not call her and say, where are you everyone's worried.
Except he knew everyone was calling her AND he said at that point he wasn't worried about her.
. . . and if you’d paid attention, you would know that she DID NOT HAVE A CELL 😂
@@rgjsg she had a pager though
Charming Adnan is a murderer. Give Hae's family peace. He should have gotten off because of the weak case, but he did it.
THAT LOUD LAWYER IS THE BIGGEST SCAM ARTIST EVER THO?! XD
You can tell Gutierrez is sick in the retrial. She shoulda recused herself. Or not have caused a mistrial.
I signed a contract and failed to stop myself from listening LOL
we finished listening to the 3rd episode in english yesterday, friday, and now it's saturday and i'm only on episode 10, but ep. 3 was as far as we were gonna go in english
the parents say he didnt do it but if u asked them about him dating a girl just before he was convicted they probably say he hasnt got one ...they do not know their son at all
bulletstorm storm high score bulletstorm they defly knew he was talking to multiple girls tho
With all due respect to everyone but Pakistan is not from the Arab world
13:50 - “Skip to the money shot” 🤔
That misses the best part! I personally like the doggy style part.... You know, where the police dogs search for the body. It's fascinating, all of those scent detectors in a dog's nose...
at one point the music made me feel like being in a cave in Mario (17.40)
I have been told to not speak ill for the dead but.... OMG, Gutierrez makes me wanna scream .... She makes me so angry, just by speaking... Her voice and the pattern of speaks just rubs me the wrong way.... Ahhhh O_O
at what point in the vid does she talk? im too lazy to watch the whole thing
Just discovered this today and I wonder if Murders In The Building (the funny show on Hulu) took their theme song/jingle from this podcast bc it sounds almost alike
I saw another broadcast that said that it is indeed modelled on this podcast.
I love only murders in the building
Also, using Islam in this case is pointless. Why, because Islam does not accept any dating, relationship apart from marriage- and Pakistani culture is the same. This is why it doesn't make sense. If he were married to her, and if he were the religious Muslim at the time, this is something we could talk about. But how do you connect a guy that smokes weed and sleeps around with the religion that is his only because he was born to Muslim parents... If that were the case, Adnan would've killed all other girls he slept with/had relationships with. I'm not even sure what to think anymore, but if Adnan is shady, then this whole case and procedure are S H A D Y as FUCK.
As a hindu not a muslim .. i can say this killing someone and being a muslim/hindu/christian etc are really different things! Evidence, evidence, evidence!!!where is it? And yes eachculture thinks a littke differently and we all see thingsin a cultural context! Like i am a non religiousperson..but good karma and bad karma is part of my thinking context .. Why ? Coz i am hindu! Do you get it? Its not heaven or hell but Karma! Like do good Karma? Why if i dont believe in any religion? Bcoz humans cant be belief systemless! And the belief system is theculture .. may change ones behaviour but commiting murder is too many steps away ..
I agree, but I think SK is trying to mislead listeners..this is pre-9/11 there really wasn't that much prejudice specialy in this case..she's trying to pull off a Cochran n OJ,quit playing the race victim card..they convicted him cuz of the testimonies and evidence like cellphone data,not for his religion
It’s clear as day that jay did it, maybe adnan knew about it but jay did it 💯. The fact that the person that “found” the body was associated to Jay in some way, the fact he knew where the car was, everything in the narrative connected to jay in some way, his lies, his friends stories, nothing was adding up in my head NOTHING!!! Not even how or when adnan got in hais car or why she would wait for a bus if she had a car?! How can the police be this stupid? It’s either they were stupid or they were racist, which shouldn’t come off as a shock. The fact that there were 7 out of 10 jurors that were black? No offence but they are the most racist, they would never put their own kind in prison even if they said I’m guilty! You don’t think those jurors were placed there strategically? This whole case is a sad case tbh. Nothing was investigated, no one was interrogated, no in depth testing.. Literally nothing! But they took this kid and locked him away for some ‘he said, she said’.
Pretty much!! They put him away based on the murders testimony. They ate up his lies when none of it made sense. Even the Nisha call, Adnan, Jay & Nisha all said dude was working in the video store at the time of the call. Jay didn't start working there until the end of Jan after Hai disappeared. Jay definitely called her by accident and maybe her mom or someone picked up and didn't hear anyone talking so they hung up after 1 min.
But what was Jay's motive and how did he do it. Under the Jay did it scenario, you have to presume that Hae left Woodlawn HS at about 2:30 or so. She was supposed to drive directly to pick up her cousin. How did Jay murder Hae in this very short time? He had Adnan's car. Did he follow Hae and somehow ambush her? What did he do with her body then? We know that he picked up Adnan and took him to track practice. Did he tell Adnan that he killed Hae? There were also numerous phone calls by Jay which place him somewhere else when Hae was killed. He was with Jen Pusateri for some of the time. Did Adnan then help Jay bury Hae?
The Jay killed Hae theory falls apart under close scrutiny. The evidence points directly to Adnan. I have no idea why anyone thinks otherwise.
Don is ruled out as a suspect for me based on Jay knowing the location of the car.
Agreed..Totally ends the speculation of another suspect. It HAS to be either Adnan or Jay or some combination. I believe Jay for the most part and think that Adnan is guilty.
To me it points to Jay and Jay only. He had tooo many details and created a fabricated story.
@@pryncessdi9358 But what was his motive? And how did he kill Hae in the very short time frame after she left Woodlawn, but before she picked up her cousin. If Adnan did not do it, Hae must have left Woodlawn, unscathed and alone, and drove to pick up her cousin. She did not pick her cousin up, so if Jae did it, he must have killed her while she was driving to pick her up. Jay had Adnan's car and was with Jen Pusateri for much of this time. Did Jay follow Hae from Woodlawn, wait until she pulled over, strangle her, then meet up with Adnan to take him to track practice? Did he tell Adnan that he killed Hae. If so, why didn't Adnan say so.
The only one who could have been in Hae's car in this very short time was Adnan. Adnan admitted to asking her for a ride and two other witnesses corroborated this.
Adnan is clearly guilty. I have no idea why anyone thinks otherwise.
this had me triggered on sooooooooooo many levels
One detail that probably everybody would miss, and that I find fascinating, only because I’ve (oddly enough) been in this situation: Adnan expresses genuine affection for his defense attorney, Christina Gutierrez, despite the fact that her unprofessional behaviors likely resulted in his conviction. Her outburst in the first trial, where conditions seemed more favorable to Adnan, resulted in a mistrial because she mouthed off to the judge, and then, by the second trial, she was too messed up to be effective. And yet, this many years later, in prison, he mostly remembers that she was asking him how he was doing, helping him get his skin medication, showing genuine concern for him . . .
I bring this up, because if he thought that her show of concern, as opposed to her effectiveness in the courtroom, was what was memorable about her, this says a lot about the home in which he grew up, and how much genuine concern his parents showed for him. Not only did he grow up in a home with substantial cultural demands on his behavior, but also, he was a middle child, and middle children are famously overlooked. A person from a truly safe, loving background, would have been angry that her behaviors were taking him away from his home and family, instead of acting as if she WAS his home and family.
So then, take that idea, and overlay it on the idea that the woman that he truly loves, that his family does not approve of, breaks up with him. He doesn’t have a “Ms. Gutierrez” at the time, to guide him through that, and his family sure isn’t going to help him, either. All he has to guide him, is bad feelings, and possibly some amount of cultural background that suggests to him that murdering her might be okay. While this is not factual evidence that he committed the crime, it does address the question of motive, in a more specific way than it has been so far. As in, the idea that Adnan has this many overwhelming “teenage” feelings, and so few resources to deal with those feelings, creates the state of mind in which even a “good kid” might kill a person.
I also find this, all-around, to be an amusing “parable” in how drugs ruin lives. Adnan himself admits, in a prior episode, that he shouldn’t have gotten involved with Jay and his friends. (Also, if you listen to this part, Adnan basically admits that he did it, because he has to walk a more direct-sounding statement back to the comment about Jay and his friends.) If Adnan hadn’t been involved with Jay, largely because Jay had drugs, Adnan and Jay would have never gotten in a situation in which they cooked up a plot to murder Hae. And, if Jay hadn’t been selling drugs, and hadn’t feared prison time for that, he wouldn’t have ratted Adnan out. And if Christina Gutierrez didn’t have a drug problem (which they don’t talk about, but, come on - why would be be so “absentee” from work, and be asking for such large sums of money, in cash, for work that she wasn’t doing), she might have been more effective in defending Adnan, and spared him from so much prison time.
And yes, I am concluding that Adnan and Jay plotted together on this. If you listen closely to what they actually say (and not what people say about them), over the entire series, it becomes pretty obvious.
Like, why does Adnan not call Jay a liar, or blame Jay specifically for his situation? Probably because he knows that they both had a part in this, and if he blames Jay, he’ll end up going down a path in which he will have to explain exactly how and why Jay is lying, when there is already so much evidence that he was with Jay most of the day when the crime was committed, and that will only make him look more guilty.
Why does Adnan not have a good alibi for where he was on the day of the crime, and, on top of that, he never has a good explanation for any of the inconsistencies in the story, that suggest his guilt? Sure, Jay’s story is wandering and untrue at times, but the main points - Adnan said he was going to kill Hae, he killed Hae, and then he enlisted Jay to help with the cover-up - haven’t changed, and are very incriminating. And, you can’t hold Jay’s lesser factual inconsistencies against him, when you consider that Jay was involved with a lot of other illegal activities, that may have implicated a lot of other people if he told the whole truth - like, for example, whoever he was buying drugs from / selling drugs to, the entire afternoon that he had Adnan’s car and cell phone, which is why that part of the timeline doesn’t make sense. Adnan has no alibi for the period of time when they were burying the body, which is also the part of Jay’s story that is the most consistent, because that would be the part of his story when he wasn’t running around dealing drugs, so he would have a lot less to lie about. It’s also amusing, in this aspect of the case, that Adnan isn’t all that upset about Asia’s alibi that he was at the library when the state claimed that the murder occurred, wasn’t part of the trial. At the time, he might not have realized how useful that information would have been, because he didn’t know what the state’s case was, or what Jay’s testimony would be, and he KNEW that he killed her at or near the library. When it later turned out that that wasn’t the state’s theory (because, call records, and need for Jay to tell a story about that afternoon that would confess the fewest crimes, and implicate the fewest people, hence throwing the Best Buy in there, because, how were they going to figure out who might have been at the Best Buy at that time, to either corroborate or dispute the story?), then the “library” alibi might have been useful. But, at the time, when he knew that he killed Hae at or near the library, it was just a flimsy story to say “somebody saw me at the library, studying, and totally NOT committing any crimes.”
I have mixed feelings about this whole thing. I’m convinced that Adnan and Jay were both involved, in ways that they will never fully disclose. The investigation and the prosecution were sloppy in many ways, but also, so are the investigation and the prosecution in many cases, because the level of time, effort, and attention to detail that are required to construct a truly airtight case against a person, are beyond the capacity of most of the people that are involved in these things. At the end of the day, despite these flaws in the process, usually, the “common sense” answer wins, and usually, this is the correct answer. But, that said, those that are experts on the process, and that can devote time and effort to attacking those flaws in the process, and also, who manage to gain influence in the criminal justice system (which, inherently, is the purpose of having a lawyer, and a “good” one, because a “good” lawyer, is a lawyer that has gained that influence in the system), can eventually overturn a “common sense” conviction. Adnan’s apparent release, in a couple days, as a result of this type of effort, is a case in point.
I do think that Adnan has been in there for a long time, he made this mistake when he was very young, and, conceptually, he deserves a chance to move forward in life. On the other hand, because he continues to maintain his innocence, at least for the sake of public appearance, and because prison doesn’t teach you much, except how to be a better criminal, I question how much he is willing to admit to himself how much responsibility he has for what happened, and, therefore, if he really will move forward in life, or if he will continue with the same behaviors. I wouldn’t be surprised if, before too long, he’s charged with a similarly violent crime, against another woman.
One last curiosity - I also wouldn’t be surprised if Adnan and Jay were at least vaguely “gay” for each other. I say this because not only do they aggressively downplay their relationship, and not only do they decline every opportunity to say anything truly spiteful about each other, but also, this is exactly the sort of relationship that might have instigated the crime in the first place. Hae breaks up with Adnan, Adnan and Jay get to talking about this, and Jay, just like “the other woman” would say, says, “fuck that bitch.” And then Adnan, feeling supported on this, says, “yeah, I’m gonna kill that bitch.” They’re both on drugs, they’re not thinking clearly, and, before you know it, Hae ends up dead - and Adnan shows Jay the body, to “impress” him. This would explain why Jay has the level of remorse that he does - because, for somebody who just helped to dig a hole, he seems AWFULLY upset about his role in this - the level of “upset” that one might have, if one felt as though one played a part in instigating the crime itself. And Jay, liking a lot of “white” things, already doesn’t conform to a “black” cultural model - so why would he conform to a sexual norm? For Adnan’s part, his culture is so repressive that he can’t even date a Korean woman - so, would he want to admit that he may have sexual interest in a black man?
All thoughts and theories . . . But, if these things are true, then it makes a lot more sense, of things that, to this point, are totally confusing and contradictory.
I applaud you
probs the most well written comment ive seen on youtube lmao
This is pure BS!!! Adnan didn't have any repressive cultural issues!! Dude wasn't a killer! Period! He was hurt by the break up but he understood and kept it moving. He was a cool laid back person. He wasn't interested in Jay romantically at all so he didn't need to impress him. 😒 Y'all really make up a bunch of ish for no reason!
Bottom line is Jay has the reason to lie and cover his tracks. Why didn't Adnan care about changing his clothes if they just buried a body??? Why did they use Jay's shovels? Why did he have to go back and wipe them off. Why was Jay all jumpy when he saw Jen and Adnan was laid back?? Jay knew where her car was too. Jay had tooo many details, dude killed her. Open and shut case.
You got a #WildImagination🤮
Wow, ur crazy.
Bush did it.
If I was a juror in this case I would have hated Gutierrez. Wish she wouldn’t have been his lawyer
So it makes even less sense that he didn't take the deal they offered him 4 years and that was about 3 years ago.
He did that shit…he knows this is all bullshit
I truly believe this young man was innocent!!
Innocent or that the state didn't have enough to convict?
was 🤔🤔🤔explain how that is possible
@@netm203 so if not enough to convict, means your guilty
the jurors telling what happened to them is sad😭
One thing is very evident that the Murder didn't happen the way Jay says it did...
People like her dad not feel the racism when things don’t go their way it’s sick
But wait.the girlfriend of Jay is called Stephanie, as in the prom princess who was mentioned in Hae Mins diary? Who was somehow dumped by Adnan to be with Hae? Crazy theory: Stephanie was in love with Adan and more than jealous of Hae, so she
got somehow in contact with Jay, ending up
planning to murder Hae Min and blaming it on
Adan as a punishment? The dna found on the
wheel in Haes car, could be Stephanies, who parked it there, so the story would make sense?
copypasta
the racism and audacity of these people sickens me
It’s disappointing to me your podcast has power over our judicial system.
they opened the case and tested dna why is that wrong ?
29:35 please just stop talking
34:18 I'm trying to focus on my serial work while I just hear this in the background
I am American, and was raised as part of Roman Catholic faith. I have never been invested in this religion. If anything, I was compelled to rebel against the values that had been instilled in me. Especially as a teen. As soon as I was old enough to pull away, I did.
*trump voice*
Very cool Tina
I suspect jay and Don did it and they used adnon to cover up
I think everyone comes to these kinds of conclusions because they're listening to something being covered in a way that makes you want it to be juicy.
You can't have listened to 8+ hours of a podcast about evidence in a case and it actually turn out that the original person did it. Why would something like that be presented to you in such a compelling manner? That doesn't fit with all of the murder mysteries and TV shows on people being acquitted.
Honestly I think Adnon might have done it. I dont know that there should have been a conviction with the evidence but the system is far from the ideal we want it to be.
I don't think Jay or anyone else in the story did it.
Jay is obviously involved an should have gotten more time.
Do you copy and paste all your comments?
@@vincent2709 nope. Only when replying to multiple comments with the exact same subject and content.
@@vincent2709 @nessa_ 1033 nope. Only when replying to multiple comments with the exact same subject and content.
“Stereotypes” about honor killings and men treating women poorly in Pakistan. Where on earth could they have come up with those “crazy stereotypes?!”
Riiiight!!😁
This case unfolded after September 11th. I wouldn't want to be a Muslim in front of a jury because of the hatred that was whipped up. A good defense attorney like Casey Anthony's lawyer would have gotten Adnan off.
@@roneen1000 it’s 1999
no country is more sexist than USA, they also hate kids
@@roneen1000 1999, not 2011, loser not pa
Othering ALWAYS contributes to police investigations involving minorities. Not always in the conscious conspiratorial sense but subconsciously and pervasively.
Jay did it
KARMA will answer adnon,jay,don
Was the Lawyer using the money on medical treatment
American jury salute!!!😢 arranged defence authority to witness in question, (jay) RACISM.
Dudes lawyer is in 50% playback speed
She's just so... damn unlikable. I'm sorry. I'll bet she was actually a great lawyer but my god! That constant screaming... or her annoying way of pursuing questions, or that slow tempo talking that sounds as if it's going somewhere but never does... yikes. Adnan deserved better.
The racist, anti-muslim narrative is very emotional, but are the cellphone towers also anti-muslim? The podcast is so nice and involving that we forget that Adnan's phone pinged exactly at Leakin Park, exactly when Jay said that they had buried the girl's body. And it pinged there just 2 on that day. Never more. How is it possible? What a coincidence, uh??? The podcast is nice, that's my second time listening to it, after 4 years and after watching the story on Crime Weekly. It was Crime Weekly that brought the cellphone tower facts to life and then I understood that unless there's an explanation to that, Adnan's innocence is simply an impossibility. It's just not possible and until before I listened to Crime Weekly I was inclined to believe that he was innocent or at least that the level of reasonable doubt was too high. Serial and Undisclosed are not unbiased. I loved Serial, but it is a very romanticised view of the case and they just brush through the cellphone towers like they were irrelevant. Even if the data is not 100% reliable, that would be too much of a coincidence to have the phones ping exactly where and when they did. Please, folks, open your eyes! Sarah Koenig, you're an amazing story teller, but you're not telling the whole truth. The truth is right in front of your eyes, but you've decided not to see it.
Why are you repeating the same thing on every episode. Go and watch Adnan Syed's press conference to know how cell phone data wasn't reliable... read the affidavit written by cell phone expert Abraham Waranowits.
I'm surprised this lawyer was referred to as the pit bull on the pant leg of justice when she speaks like this. Idk if it's just me but it makes her sound very unsure of herself and her client. I do think Adnan is innocent tho
I believe Jay. I don't think they had enough evidence to convict Adnan, but I will always believe Jay. Even after listening to hours of this.
What you gon say now that they vacated the sentence?
haha adnan is out, jay is going to prison
ADNAN’s Lawyer had a terrible sounding voice and horrendous communication skills. She just screwed him over left and right.
" Pakistan male" lol
There ARE cultural differences, you can’t ignore that. Honor killings happen.
I don’t understand how after hearing everything you heard you don’t think this is racially motivated. Not even a little?
jake gerrans is not well
I hate taht Jake guy
.
@@SQUASHY-ds8ni ik right
@@kanepearce5117 he's such a spud
@@willhatter4461 I hate that Kane guy
1:30
You can hear the m.s in her voice actually. I've been wondering about whether she had it or not
Such an awful defense. “Someone else did it.” No….THIS person did it, or THAT person did it. Good Lord. If you want to study a great defense attorney (I didn’t say a good person lol), study Jose Baez. I don’t condone injustice or lying, but that man creates a story and TELLS it to the point where reasonable doubt is always created.
That man is a cretin but you can't deny he does his job well 🤣
@@cozycasasmr4510 Agreed! 🤣 He could pick out a random man off of the street & make a jury feel like it’s THAT guy that’s guilty lol.
There's the card!!!!!!
43:12 English please haha
amajamina jalelvaleva
Cristina's voice is so annoying I think I'd convict myself just to not have to listen to it any more.
Adnan did it-
milart12 nah
Nope
milart12 Agreed. He did it
Definitely
He for sure did it ! I can’t believe how stupid peolle are
The enehy group letter was islamophobic how can Sarah not believe shamim
I think Adnan did it and paid Jay money. That's why Jay's account is odd. Adnan cant bring it up now and neither can Jay.
I feel she was doing great as a defense lawyer.. Her long drawn out voice. Is annoying..
Bro this shit is so annoying idc about adon or whatever tf I’m just tryna smoke some loud and do shit
If you are acused of something like this....any other immagriants in that country would do this...and they do try leave....all immagriants do!
He’s not an immigrant he was born in the United States
If you're here for my class, I'm so sorry about the lawyer's voice.
family seems a bit delusional with the strong racism angle considering they were accepted as immigrants - they should shoulder dome blame here for failing to acknowledge that their kids would somewhat be westernized through school and lifestyle, how much of their strict anti American sentiment contributed to his sneaking around and being secretive?
Listen to his mom pull out the over used race card made me sick. It not always about prejudice or race people need to realize this
I agree. I was expecting it allot. But from what I heard from the police perspective they didn't care.
Why is it overkill when racism is a fact
Did you not hear when they interviewed jurors asking them about Muslims??racism obviously played a part
@@elilopez2517 it was 1 jury and its known muslim men dont respect women
The fact that many of the people who remained on the jury will openly admit that they allowed their bias is why they presumed his guilt is very telling... I think if you all were the one in the hot seat youd be singing a different song when it comes to racial discrimination. Not to say its the only reason but it 100% infected the actions of those judging him
Either way I bet he still has a Pakistani passport or could get one very quickly