And, just as with an Obrez, it doesn't even matter if you hit them with the bullet! The concussive blast alone will knock down and disable your target!
Right? I keep thinking about how deafening the Thompson Encore in .308 I used to shoot was, and how much worse it would be in a full auto. The HK-51, for when you absolutely, positively need to deafen everyone within in 100 feet of the muzzle.
As someone who trained in CQB killhouses... I can confirm that even with earpro on a 308 SBR is literally a tactical disorientation device. I had someone with a 10" AR10 in my stack and when he fired it indoors my teeth rattled into my skull and the flash from the compensator was like taking one of those old timey 1920s flash photos. Fun shit.
@@SpaceMissile Man I'm not even kidding, every time he pulled the trigger it was like getting smacked in the head with a tennis racket or something. The thing was ABSURDLY loud. Without earpro I'm positive you would have suffered instant hearing loss, if not total deafness, or even destruction of your eardrums. You could feel it in your chest, like if you've ever been to a heavy metal concert close to the speaker wall, you can feel the concussion of the bass... it was like that on steroids. It shook your whole nervous system
@@saltwatertaffybag when i got my pistol, i went to an indoor range with my brother. a guy two booths down had a .308 AK. that thing certainly announced its presence.
I have to think that shooting this gun is like shooting a .454 Casull. It's a lot more fun to say that you shot one than it is to actually shoot one. However, this thing has the sexy lines of an MP-5 with a box mag that looks absolutely huge rather than that skinny 9mm mag of the MP-5.
That idea happened in the Vietnam war with the Australian SASR and their armourer cut-down shorty SLR's with 30rd mags Essentially, having one of them open up on you in the middle of the jungle by bush ninjas was the equivalent effect of thinking that someone was shooting at you with a heavy machinegun and it'd be a good time to bugger off anywhere else. They called it 'The Bitch' because of all the reasons that come with a battle rifle cut down to ridiculous length
I was aware of the G3 conversions - they were built for room clearance because they had a better "one shot knockdown" than 9mm. SAS doctrine is, apparently, very biased towards one-shot-kill...
@@edwardcullen1739 Undoubtedly this was people at the top that were never in any danger of actually having to use the thing. I heard someone say somewhere that they'd never heard anyone that had been shot by one complain about the stopping power of the 9mm. How many people that are that high on coke or PCP are you really going to encounter in military special forces?
@@bubba200874426 No, was "good authority". 😉 Related/unrelated, bro did a couple of tours in Iraq in the infantry... Stories about the lack of CQB knockdown power of 5.56 are not exaggerated. To be clear, "knockdown" is specific, as in, "knockdown and never get up". People who've been there prefer 1 shot, because that's literally all they may get; this is what motivated the development of .458 SOCOM. These were just the early 90s effort to plug that gap (see also 6.8 SPC). My guess is that SAS/SBS have switched to .458 too for this role, but have no insight, just pure speculation.
@@udp1073 One? I want TWO! Shooting one in each hand with the classic "stock pinched with elbow" grip will make 100% I never hit anything while having at least 572% more fun than the other shooters.
@@superturkeylegsnow, if we could ask Jonathan Ferguson to mount that absolutely sick mp5 grenade launcher he's got in the Royal Armouries collection to this, I think we can all declare ourselves to be ready to face our God.
These were actually used a lot for vehicle born operations by SAS and SBS in Northern Ireland. Short and compact enough to conceal as well as maneuverer inside of a typical 80's 4 door saloon type car but with enough power to effectively punch through a windscreen and still deal some damage to a target. MP's and guys on VIP protection also really liked the HK51's in early 2000's Iraq before eventually adopting the 10 inch L119's and HK53's.
@@somersethuscarl2938 taking on fully titanium armored soviets in CQC on ships, I guarantee it. The Ruskies were real worried about their tactical boats getting commandeered in the waning days of the Union. I'm sure NATO made good on those fears more than once and we just don't know about it yet.
@@somersethuscarl2938 They were known as "car guns" kept in unmarked vehicles to escape illegal paramilitary vehicle checkpoints in Ulster. Overwhelming firepower to break through & escape. The alternative would be days of beatings before an unmarked grave. the Royal Military Police carried something similar in their WIP role.
"Now pay attention double-o-seven, take this standard H&K G3 Rifle, note the shortened barrel. Fires Point three-oh-Eight ammunition. Blinding your adversaries for a quick escape."
@@tamlandipper29 almost certainly. HK already produce the L85 in some part and the MP5 has been a favourite for many years. I'm surprised a push on the 416 and 417 hasn't been made, we already use M4s and the L119 from the US. Brexit might make that less likely though as such trade agreements will almost certainly involve some extra bureaucracy.
@@andrewince8824 I find it fascinating that BAE Systems briefly owned H&K - it's a rare example of an at-least-theoretically British business buying a German business, and not the other way around. I always wondered what impact the G11 had on HK's finances (they spent aged developing it, then it had to be abandoned).
and H&K go "we have this on in 5.56" SAS then go "what about 7.62?" H&K "We are German not American!" I think what we really get out of this story is it's probably lucky that H&K didn't have one in 7.62 as the SAS would probably then asked for one in 50 BMG.
According to legend, the Australian SAS developed a cut-down auto FAL (SLR in Australian) during the Vietnam war as a break-contact weapon. The idea was to produce a terrifying burst of fire with an enormous muzzle flash on contact with the enemy to allow a patrol a few precious seconds to skedaddle back the way they had come. Called 'the beast', I know nothing more about it, but perhaps there are veteran viewers who could shed some first-hand knowledge. I heard about this as a regular infantryman, post-Vietnam, and it was a well-known war story that sounded probably true.
It needs a more aggressive brake to accentuate the effect. Didn't do it on purpose but I got the 'your gun is too loud' response from the braked magnum guys with my 7.62*39.
I had a ptr91 pistol and an FAL pistol. Both earned me many a dirty look at the indoor range lol. When I could hear people it was always someone complaining and those were just semi auto. This would have people crying for sure.
The first time i ever heard about this gun was through the old Half-Life 1 mod: "Firearms", which had one of these as a H&K 51B. Which is belt-fed of all things. It's nuts.
The "Weapon" is intended for close quarters (i.e. vehicle carry) and most likely will not bounce off windshields, nor deflected by mere tree limbs or be slowed down by a car's door.
@@nickmitsialis It's at least at as bad as the Rico Special. I haven't been brave/foolish enough to attempt to shoot it at an indoor range, but it'll rattle windows nearly 60yds away.
I had that too. I finally sold it because it was the days before pistol braces. Wish I still had it. It got me a lot of angry looks at the indoor range.
For when one flashbang at a time simply wont do. Basically an MP5 chambered in 7.62, nice. edit: I found a video of one of these being fired at night, automatic flashbang dispenser is spot on. The muzzle flash is hilarious.
Once again Ian brings us a gem: this, gentlemen, is the logical evolution of the ar pistol Of course we need a firing test now Edit: 600 likes, now Ian has no excuses
The biggest difference on the receiver is that the charging handle slot is cut back into the receiver vs the way it's set up on the G3 or MP5 where the j-cut is part of the cocking tube. That makes up for the long bolt movement required to cycle .308 despite the shortened cocking tube and shortened bolt. Just recently got the Form 1 back for a semi-auto SBR version of this built with CETME parts, and looking forward to the next range trip with it!
I remember as a kid seeing a few toy guns in this shape in toy shops and I always thought they made the mp5 toy but tried to put an m16 magazine into it, I found out many years later that they were HK51’s, big Daddy mp5’s In 308, insane recoil and muzzle flash to boot, good job Ian we need some magdumps and impressions on this, mabye a 3 gun with it too haha
Aaah, yes. The 'Angry Gun'. I have a semi-auto flavor of one of these. A linear compensator is REQUIRED, otherwise it will stress-test the integrity of your teeth and fillings. On the other hand, muzzle fireballs the size of a 5-gallon jug are hard to pass up!
The comp probably also improves the desired effects in CQB. "I'm not only going to spit .308 blast and flash at you from an 8.5" barrel, I'm gonna *focus* it at you." I imagine, even if you missed, at CQB ranges, indoors, the effect on the guys in the effect cone would be similar to a radar slapped with in-band brute force dazzle jamming.
H&K: *points at the gun* "This wasn't us, who made this?" *Looks at America* "It was you wasn't it?" America: *looks dazed and confused* Britain: *slowly raises hand* America: "I knew it, you're just as crazy as we are!" H&K: *facepalm*
@@destroyerarmor2846 thats why they make consistently gross and cringe looking guns. Take the Bren. Great machine gun, but looks like shit and isn't the easiest to aim with the mag being on the top
Now when is he going to talk about the even more ridiculous HK51B belt feed? I was at a machine gun shoot in ‘91 where a dealer was firing one of these. I was about 10 feet behind the shooter and the muzzle blast was intense. The noise was comparable to the M2s that were there and double hearing protection would not have been a bad idea. I don’t want to imagine what this would have been like in a closed room.
Ian, My best friend shared this video with me the other day. Thank you for bringing the spotlight to one of my fathers favorite weapons he ever built. I have in my personal collection a Fleming built H&K 51K (3.5 inch barrel) that I think you would have some fun with. Maybe one day we can give it a go together on the range. Keep up the good work Ian.
This was actually a non-lethal weapon believe it or not. Simply fire and miss, and hostiles are pacified by losing both vision and hearing. Possible risk to user though.
"Good Lord! Was that an A-10's GAU-8/A Avenger, doing a pass over there?" "No Sarge, it was Trooper Wilson giggling & going full auto with his HK51." I really want to see Ian on the range with that chonky thing.
I've seen a reference to these, or the 53 in 5.56, being carried in cars in Northern Ireland specifically to use if they got a contact when driving. The drill being to magdump this from the backseat through the windshield, while others bailed out to engage.
I enjoy listening to Ian, he always comes across as very chilled out and calm, Forgotten Weapons is my ASMR channel with guns, he should do a calming gun clean or something and put it out as an ASMR Autonomous sensory meridian response.
Employed as an "Anti ambush" weapon - straight from the horses's mouth. I met John Mcaleese at a training course years after the troubles and he mentioned carrying one of these. If the vehicle you were in was stopped by aggressors, you jump out, unload a full magazine and in the resulting chaos, make good your escape. Of course, there were other applications but it's very much a "shock and awe" weapon. Very cool.
@Bannsider 100%. Of course I met John through his later career of airsoft training and in my team at the time was a lad who had been in the Det - he often enthusaed about the HK53 for all the reasons we've mentioned. For actual "business" it was 9mm all the way.
I was waiting for the end to have Ian say "And then in tomorrow's episode, we take this thing to the range" too bad we couldn't see that insane thing set of some car alarms
I don't recall for sure, but there was an article done about this project in one of the popular magazines of the time... Perhaps Soldier of Fortune or Guns and Ammo. The article also described what Flemming called a " Moderator " for this short beast. A short Suppressor, which was designed to be just enough to tame some of the blast and fire associated with the short barrel... Interesting project...!
Gotta love that roller delay though. Usually with a project like this they have to change so many components but all they really needed to make from scratch for this one was the barrel.
You should do an episode on the SAS Door Knocker (an 870 with Hatton slugs). I’m hoping Saturday morning’s episode is Ian shooting a 51 at night, wearing NVGs.
I have shot one on numerous occasions and was surprised by 2 things. 1) it really does not recoil that badly, I suspect largely due to drastically less energy developed by that short barrel. 2) How controllable it really is! We did most of our shooting at 75-100 yards and you could with practice keep all the shots of a mag dump in a fairly small area! it was a lot of fun to shoot!
I knew an Indianapolis Police officer who actually had one of these and carried it in his cruiser (late 80's). But not for long. Your comment about the collapsing stock was spot on; very uncomfortable! He quickly swapped it out for a standard fixed stock. It wasn't long after that he decided to acquire an M1A Scout Squad rifle.
Ian just trebled that guns price in auction. Real SAS/SBS heritage on model. Everybody notices when owner opens up in a MG shoot. :) That is alpha weapon.
*Reads "Full Auto Flashbang Dispenser" in the title* Me: So this is an SMG with a rifle granade? *watches first few minutes* Me: So its literally a very loud, very overpowered Flashlight
In the comments to last week's video about the Vicker's K machine gun, someone corrected Ian on the difference between the SAS and the LRDG, saying something like the LRDG sneak in, observe quietly and sneak out, while the SAS sneak in and make a lot of noise. Seems very applicable to this week's video.
The intended use of these would surely have been vehicle based engagments. For example, the SAS spent a lot of time in civilian vehicles in NI on stakeouts, tailing POIs etc. If they got into a firefight, then something like this would have been fearsomely handy. 7.62 rifle that you can quickly pull up out from next to your seat would certainly be helpful if they got into a car chase or some kind of engagement. I remember reading an account from 'Andy McNab' in Immediate Action where he found himself in a car chase in NI. How truthful it is, who knows, given the source, but certainly plausible. The best part of this video though? That it's out on Friday, and I think we all know what Ian will be uploading for us tomorrow!
From what I understand these were bought for N Ireland. The 53 was in use by SAS and 14 Int at the time but was found to struggle when shooting from vehicle to vehicle, so they wanted something compact size but in 7.62. They tried a few options including cut down automatic FALs with folding stocks and this thing but settled on the G3KA4.
Based on their experiences in Northern Ireland, the SAS recognised that the 7.62mm round was far more effective against adversaries in vehicles than the 9mm or 5.56mm. As the SAS patrolled frequently in plain clothes in cars in Northern Ireland, and had a liking for the G3 battle rifle, the G3 KA4, a retractable stock version of the G3 with a shorter barrel was adopted. It was easier to carry and deploy from the confined spaces of a car. 14 Company also used them. I suspect this was an evolution of that idea, although I don’t believe one that was ever actually deployed in anger.
Something to note about these, especially in the discussion of braced pistols: The roller delay action is very sensitive to how much support you have behind it. This means that if a gun is set up to function without a stock, it needs significantly higher bolt velocity to cycle reliably due to the way the recoil action can be absorbed by letting the gun move in your hands without a shoulder behind it. When people take a PTR that has been set up to work as a pistol and then put a cheater brace on it, without changing the locking wedge or the mainspring, they invariably have a gun that recoils excessively, beats the rollers to crap, and even cracks the stock. THIS IS NOT BECAUSE THE GUN IS CRAP. THIS IS BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW IT WORKS AND FAILED TO ADJUST CRITICAL COMPONENTS.
The roller system would be better if it was actually gas operated instead of blowback. The hk system looks like a situation where the machinist forgot to drill a barrel port and changed the roller locking bar to a wedge. It's got almost all of the parts for it as is. But oh well, it's better to rely on everything being just right instead of designing it to be flexible right?
The story I had heard for the origins of the MC51 had to do with raids on drugs smugglers in the 80s, dudes had light armor and were high on who knows what so they wanted something that threw hammers. There was a leaflet that came with mine about it but it has long since been lost to time. It may be recovered in a basement one day but where I know not. Great video. They are surprisingly heavy as well, but are still accurate (especially if you can get the damn claw to stay on). No joke about it being a flashbang dispenser. Also doubles as an emergency radiator.
The old Firearms mod for Half Life featured what I think is an interesting take on this old gun. It was the HK-51, but belt fed with a 50 round belt... With obvious noise and flash issues modelled, but the compact firepower were noticeable.
That is the most understated tacticool contraption I've ever seen. All of the noise. All of the uncontrollability. All of the unpleasantries. None of the actual tactical advantages you first imagined. I love it! This thing should be kitted out with a 3x scope, a carbon fiber speed holes hand guard and an under barrel flash light the size of Wyoming. For starters.
I may be remembering wrongly, but years ago I seem to remember reading one of those memoirs of an SAS member books and this gun was mentioned as being developed as a car gun for covert ops in Northern Ireland as they wanted something that could easily and rapidly be maneuvered in and out of a vehicle, but having more punch than a 9mm MP5. I hate to think of the hearing damage if it became necessary to fire this beast from inside a vehicle.
A few things you could have also mentioned; They use a custom locking piece due to the lower bolt thrust. They use a telescoping recoil rod, which is fixed on all the other roller guns. And finally, there is an even more ridiculous HK51k with a 5" barrel. I have chronographed my HK51k at 1600 fps, half of what the velocity should be.
I just spent 7 & ½ minutes waiting for him to shoot it. Dis-uh-pointed! J/K...mostly. Very cool video and neat history of a cool weapon. Thanks for sharing!
I built a 12.5" bbl AR 308. The muzzle blast on that is quite sufficient, thank you. Incidentally, Ian is spot on with the heavy bullets and suppressor host bit. My SBR is a suppressor host and, I hand load .308 ammo for it using 225gr bullets.
Think i recall Andy McNab wrote about using this in Immediate Action, during operations in Ireland. Compact for vehicles and relatively consealable with the fire power to put anything down.. and very very loud..
Armorer: We have some burp guns. You want to try one of those? SAS: Do you have anything a little bigger? Armorer: We have a deep down belly belch gun? SAS: Yes. Please.
HK53. We used alongside RMP Close Protection. And of course 14 Int, SAS/SBS. At the time a advanced weapon system. We were still bringing along the HI Power 9mm and Sterling SMG
As far as I know (I looked into this when I made replica) the SBS (not sure about the SAS) needed a suppressed version which they got but due to continuous heavy fouling caused by the close proximity of the suppressor to the large amount of combusting propellant, they switched to the smaller 556 for reliability reasons even though it was a less powerful round than they had initially wanted.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
This is actually a cleverly silenced gun.
No one will hear you shooting when they all are deafened with first few shots.
And, just as with an Obrez, it doesn't even matter if you hit them with the bullet! The concussive blast alone will knock down and disable your target!
@@nathanrandall7003 I’d imagine the mere shrapnel from hitting the ground could be enough to “pacify “ someone
Right? I keep thinking about how deafening the Thompson Encore in .308 I used to shoot was, and how much worse it would be in a full auto. The HK-51, for when you absolutely, positively need to deafen everyone within in 100 feet of the muzzle.
Perfect for those 'Russian stealth' missions.
The G3 is plenty brutal in full auto, I can't imagine the chaos with the barrel chopped down to 8 inches.
As someone who trained in CQB killhouses... I can confirm that even with earpro on a 308 SBR is literally a tactical disorientation device. I had someone with a 10" AR10 in my stack and when he fired it indoors my teeth rattled into my skull and the flash from the compensator was like taking one of those old timey 1920s flash photos. Fun shit.
lmao that's intense
@@SpaceMissile Man I'm not even kidding, every time he pulled the trigger it was like getting smacked in the head with a tennis racket or something. The thing was ABSURDLY loud. Without earpro I'm positive you would have suffered instant hearing loss, if not total deafness, or even destruction of your eardrums. You could feel it in your chest, like if you've ever been to a heavy metal concert close to the speaker wall, you can feel the concussion of the bass... it was like that on steroids. It shook your whole nervous system
Now imagine it in full fuckin' auto from the hip..... 😂 even the bad guys would just stop and look.... the HK51 is a real conversation stopper lol
@@saltwatertaffybag when i got my pistol, i went to an indoor range with my brother. a guy two booths down had a .308 AK. that thing certainly announced its presence.
lmao
“I’d recommend double hearing protection” I’d also recommend a mouth guard to keep your fillings from rattling loose.
And sunglasses
@@joeboom0697 And a dust mask because that blast will find any loose dirt
And Tylenol for the headache. They work good for clearing sinuses.
And eye drops because some kicked up shit will find its way under your shooting glasses.
I have to think that shooting this gun is like shooting a .454 Casull. It's a lot more fun to say that you shot one than it is to actually shoot one. However, this thing has the sexy lines of an MP-5 with a box mag that looks absolutely huge rather than that skinny 9mm mag of the MP-5.
SAS: How do we let people know they're about to meet their god?
SAS Armourer: Hold on lads, I've got an idea.
I love how smoothly this comment was made inclusive lol
That idea happened in the Vietnam war with the Australian SASR and their armourer cut-down shorty SLR's with 30rd mags
Essentially, having one of them open up on you in the middle of the jungle by bush ninjas was the equivalent effect of thinking that someone was shooting at you with a heavy machinegun and it'd be a good time to bugger off anywhere else.
They called it 'The Bitch' because of all the reasons that come with a battle rifle cut down to ridiculous length
@@krissteel4074 It was called "The Bitch!" Some even had grenade launchers for good measure
what an utterly cringe comment,
SAS really stands for "Scare And Shoot".
The SAS’ magazine fed fire breathing dragon
I was aware of the G3 conversions - they were built for room clearance because they had a better "one shot knockdown" than 9mm.
SAS doctrine is, apparently, very biased towards one-shot-kill...
@@edwardcullen1739 Undoubtedly this was people at the top that were never in any danger of actually having to use the thing.
I heard someone say somewhere that they'd never heard anyone that had been shot by one complain about the stopping power of the 9mm. How many people that are that high on coke or PCP are you really going to encounter in military special forces?
@@bubba200874426 No, was "good authority". 😉
Related/unrelated, bro did a couple of tours in Iraq in the infantry... Stories about the lack of CQB knockdown power of 5.56 are not exaggerated.
To be clear, "knockdown" is specific, as in, "knockdown and never get up". People who've been there prefer 1 shot, because that's literally all they may get; this is what motivated the development of .458 SOCOM.
These were just the early 90s effort to plug that gap (see also 6.8 SPC).
My guess is that SAS/SBS have switched to .458 too for this role, but have no insight, just pure speculation.
@@edwardcullen1739 SAS/SBS is absolutly not using .458 SOCOM. They're using. 300 BLK un their MCX tho.
@@theobuzat9091 Okay, cool ☺️ (Edit: like I said, I have no insight into *current* doctrine/gear.)
Ian: I recommend double hearing protection.
SAS guy: Huh?!
"u wot m8?"
You know the old joke?
"Artillerists say what?"
"What?"
"I SAID: ARTILLERISTS SAY WHAT?!?"
"WHAT?!?"
"Exactly."
"Full Auto Flashbang Dispenser"
Already, I can tell that this was both an awesome and a hilarious awful idea.
Its a HK 51, of course its a GREAT idea!
(Brazillians will get that joke, hopefully)
yeah... but you know you want one.. as we all do
It''s either the "best worst idea ever" or "the worst best idea ever" and I'm not sure which.
@@udp1073 One? I want TWO! Shooting one in each hand with the classic "stock pinched with elbow" grip will make 100% I never hit anything while having at least 572% more fun than the other shooters.
@@andersjjensen i like your style
So basically, they took a HK G3A4 and sized it down to MP5 measurements, but kept the 7,62 mm NATO ( .308) caliber.
Absolute mad lads!
It's the real life equivalent of the SMG in Half Life 1
@@superturkeylegsnow, if we could ask Jonathan Ferguson to mount that absolutely sick mp5 grenade launcher he's got in the Royal Armouries collection to this, I think we can all declare ourselves to be ready to face our God.
never have i seen a weapon that I want to see Ian take to the range more
@@zoiders It would have been Christmas (Checked the date) if it was mag dumped and not just chronoed, but alas....
I would like to see a two gun match but for crew served machine guns and antimaterial rifles more.
He did range it. Posted the next day, October 23 2021.
These were actually used a lot for vehicle born operations by SAS and SBS in Northern Ireland. Short and compact enough to conceal as well as maneuverer inside of a typical 80's 4 door saloon type car but with enough power to effectively punch through a windscreen and still deal some damage to a target. MP's and guys on VIP protection also really liked the HK51's in early 2000's Iraq before eventually adopting the 10 inch L119's and HK53's.
Those were G3Ks. Basically the same thing, but with a SLIGHTLY less insane 12.4" barrel.
SAS wanted a cool range toy and figured out how to get the government to pay for it. Legends.
Oh they wanted it for a purpose..................just what that purpose is they are not currently telling,
Mad lads.
@@somersethuscarl2938 taking on fully titanium armored soviets in CQC on ships, I guarantee it. The Ruskies were real worried about their tactical boats getting commandeered in the waning days of the Union. I'm sure NATO made good on those fears more than once and we just don't know about it yet.
@@somersethuscarl2938 They were known as "car guns" kept in unmarked vehicles to escape illegal paramilitary vehicle checkpoints in Ulster. Overwhelming firepower to break through & escape. The alternative would be days of beatings before an unmarked grave. the Royal Military Police carried something similar in their WIP role.
Yeah don't think people understand the issues Ireland and this what level a pdw is in that situation.
"Now pay attention double-o-seven, take this standard H&K G3 Rifle, note the shortened barrel. Fires Point three-oh-Eight ammunition. Blinding your adversaries for a quick escape."
Also making sure they stayed down
thank you.. i read that in Desmold Llewelyns voice.
Very SAS. Someone said "we want an MP5 but big bullets" and HK said "please don't kill us, here's the gun".
Not disagreeing, but probably also an opportunity to increase links into British army.
@@tamlandipper29 almost certainly. HK already produce the L85 in some part and the MP5 has been a favourite for many years. I'm surprised a push on the 416 and 417 hasn't been made, we already use M4s and the L119 from the US. Brexit might make that less likely though as such trade agreements will almost certainly involve some extra bureaucracy.
@@andrewince8824 I find it fascinating that BAE Systems briefly owned H&K - it's a rare example of an at-least-theoretically British business buying a German business, and not the other way around. I always wondered what impact the G11 had on HK's finances (they spent aged developing it, then it had to be abandoned).
@@AshleyPomeroy im sure they had the margin for it
and H&K go "we have this on in 5.56" SAS then go "what about 7.62?" H&K "We are German not American!"
I think what we really get out of this story is it's probably lucky that H&K didn't have one in 7.62 as the SAS would probably then asked for one in 50 BMG.
According to legend, the Australian SAS developed a cut-down auto FAL (SLR in Australian) during the Vietnam war as a break-contact weapon. The idea was to produce a terrifying burst of fire with an enormous muzzle flash on contact with the enemy to allow a patrol a few precious seconds to skedaddle back the way they had come. Called 'the beast', I know nothing more about it, but perhaps there are veteran viewers who could shed some first-hand knowledge. I heard about this as a regular infantryman, post-Vietnam, and it was a well-known war story that sounded probably true.
It's called "The Bitch" and Ian now has a video on it, using a replica
Sounds a bit like "The Bitch" SLR that Ian covered some time back
I was immeasurably disappointed when you didn't tell us at the end to tune in tomorrow to see you take it out to the range :(
He posted a photo of himself shooting it on Instagram. It’s coming.
@@SomaticApparition Holy sh*t. He has a Instagram? What's the nick??
I don't know sam, I think seeing a flashbang may not be a good idea
Tomorrow is Saturday dude. Saturday is range day on forgotten weapons
ruclips.net/video/0_Iapo5GXVc/видео.html
That must be a handful rocking full-auto!
Hello Lars
@@anthonydefreitas6006 ?
@@cantsneedgaming4591 ?
@@TheIdiotPlays he's a gamer
Its not bad if you close your eyes.
Automatic range clearing device. If they don't leave because of the noise they'll be standing behind you trying to figure out what it is.
Everyone looking around like that scene in Robocop when he's firing the Auto-9 at the range.
It needs a more aggressive brake to accentuate the effect. Didn't do it on purpose but I got the 'your gun is too loud' response from the braked magnum guys with my 7.62*39.
I had a ptr91 pistol and an FAL pistol. Both earned me many a dirty look at the indoor range lol. When I could hear people it was always someone complaining and those were just semi auto. This would have people crying for sure.
The first time i ever heard about this gun was through the old Half-Life 1 mod: "Firearms", which had one of these as a H&K 51B. Which is belt-fed of all things. It's nuts.
Played that mod. It was dead as hell.
Good old day!
“Full auto flashbang dispenser”
Now that just sounds like hella fun. Bond? Lol. Amateur.
What better way to blind the enemy while helping them assume room temperature
The name's Bang. Flash Bang.
The downside is that you're closer to the flash bangs going off than what ever it is that you're trying to flash bang.
Ian showing us a gun made by a Fleming, and you reference Bond. I see what you did there :D
The "Weapon" is intended for close quarters (i.e. vehicle carry) and most likely will not bounce off windshields, nor deflected by mere tree limbs or be slowed down by a car's door.
I have a PTR made version of one of these. Not only is it an flashbang dispenser, it doubles as a flamethrower.
It's even worse than the full auto FG42?
@@nickmitsialis It's at least at as bad as the Rico Special. I haven't been brave/foolish enough to attempt to shoot it at an indoor range, but it'll rattle windows nearly 60yds away.
I had that too. I finally sold it because it was the days before pistol braces. Wish I still had it. It got me a lot of angry looks at the indoor range.
For when one flashbang at a time simply wont do. Basically an MP5 chambered in 7.62, nice.
edit: I found a video of one of these being fired at night, automatic flashbang dispenser is spot on. The muzzle flash is hilarious.
link?
@@DerichndofCoomland m.ruclips.net/video/ivSpvcoBggI/видео.html
Hahahaa, well, if there was someone watching his nightsight is totally ruined for the next 10 years.
The Muzzle climb might be a problem but really is a mini MG3 with A stick mag fitted to it.
You want to see something even more wild? Look up HK51B, It's a belt fed version of this same gun 😂
HK51: “who are you?”
Mosin-Obrez: “I’m you, but older.”
LMAO!
Actually, yes.
@@larrymcjonesrespect for DJ Paul & Lord Infamous pfp
Once again Ian brings us a gem: this, gentlemen, is the logical evolution of the ar pistol
Of course we need a firing test now
Edit: 600 likes, now Ian has no excuses
colion noir has one and he magdumps it on his channel
Karl on Inrage Tv tested a similar gun and Ian absolutely hated being near it
I’ve never wanted to see him shooting anything else more that this, want to see how he “manages” thee recoil.
Logical evolution of the air pistol? Are you quite insane?
Oh!..... As you were.
RIP to Ian's shoulder.
The biggest difference on the receiver is that the charging handle slot is cut back into the receiver vs the way it's set up on the G3 or MP5 where the j-cut is part of the cocking tube. That makes up for the long bolt movement required to cycle .308 despite the shortened cocking tube and shortened bolt. Just recently got the Form 1 back for a semi-auto SBR version of this built with CETME parts, and looking forward to the next range trip with it!
I remember as a kid seeing a few toy guns in this shape in toy shops and I always thought they made the mp5 toy but tried to put an m16 magazine into it, I found out many years later that they were HK51’s, big Daddy mp5’s In 308, insane recoil and muzzle flash to boot, good job Ian we need some magdumps and impressions on this, mabye a 3 gun with it too haha
Dont you remember a governor usung ine with a grenade launcher??? IMFDB asap
I think the two words range and video would make many of us happy.
Aaah, yes. The 'Angry Gun'. I have a semi-auto flavor of one of these. A linear compensator is REQUIRED, otherwise it will stress-test the integrity of your teeth and fillings. On the other hand, muzzle fireballs the size of a 5-gallon jug are hard to pass up!
The comp probably also improves the desired effects in CQB.
"I'm not only going to spit .308 blast and flash at you from an 8.5" barrel, I'm gonna *focus* it at you."
I imagine, even if you missed, at CQB ranges, indoors, the effect on the guys in the effect cone would be similar to a radar slapped with in-band brute force dazzle jamming.
A real beauty. Also has a belt-fed variant, the 51B for when you need more flashbangs dispensed per minute.
Good lord.. Someone's gotta video one of those at range at night with tracers 😎
B variant is also 950-1000 RPM
Ah yes, the auto version of the Obrez.
H&K: *points at the gun* "This wasn't us, who made this?" *Looks at America* "It was you wasn't it?"
America: *looks dazed and confused*
Britain: *slowly raises hand*
America: "I knew it, you're just as crazy as we are!"
H&K: *facepalm*
Britain: '....Where do you think YOU get it from? The French?'
You got a loicense to talk about guns
@@Sardonic_sardine mate this guy ain't listening to anything your saying, not worth your time
@@destroyerarmor2846 I have a benelli M4 and a an semi auto aug in .22
@@destroyerarmor2846 thats why they make consistently gross and cringe looking guns. Take the Bren. Great machine gun, but looks like shit and isn't the easiest to aim with the mag being on the top
Now when is he going to talk about the even more ridiculous HK51B belt feed? I was at a machine gun shoot in ‘91 where a dealer was firing one of these. I was about 10 feet behind the shooter and the muzzle blast was intense. The noise was comparable to the M2s that were there and double hearing protection would not have been a bad idea. I don’t want to imagine what this would have been like in a closed room.
I'd like to add that of all the 7.62mm assault rifles, this was the easiest to convert with no issues of the gas port or tampering the gas piston...
What's interesting is that they had a variant of this that was integrally suppressed a la the MP5SD.
Lol why even bother
@@Omniseed for the sake of they cannnn
@@Omniseed Probably 'cause it was cheaper than inventing .300 Blackout early
What I've read is that was the actual intent to begin with, you can load a much heavier bullet in 7.62 than you can in a 9mm MP5SD or L34 Sterling.
@@norwegianwiking 124gr +P NATO VS a 200 grain subsonic loading. At that point... Just go for 45.
Ian, My best friend shared this video with me the other day. Thank you for bringing the spotlight to one of my fathers favorite weapons he ever built. I have in my personal collection a Fleming built H&K 51K (3.5 inch barrel) that I think you would have some fun with. Maybe one day we can give it a go together on the range. Keep up the good work Ian.
"Deep belly laugh sort of good time fun. I recommend double ear protection." That's the perfect ad blurb for this thing right there.
This was actually a non-lethal weapon believe it or not. Simply fire and miss, and hostiles are pacified by losing both vision and hearing. Possible risk to user though.
In case you want to see something even more ridiculous, there's a belt-fed version, called the MC51B.
At first I thought that had to be a joke, but then ruclips.net/video/dGPeSUDbUJ4/видео.html
Holy goddamn I thought my AR pistols were stupid fun
Holy crap!
@@jnelson4765 AR pistols are for women and soyboys. Get this if you are a man.
"Good Lord! Was that an A-10's GAU-8/A Avenger, doing a pass over there?"
"No Sarge, it was Trooper Wilson giggling & going full auto with his HK51."
I really want to see Ian on the range with that chonky thing.
Holy shit, the MP5 really does come in all sizes.
A friend of mine has a semi-auto version of this. It's quite an experience to shoot, as you can imagine.
The phrase "MP5 in .308" makes me feel all tingly in my special private area
I remembered seeing this one before online and wanted to know more on it. Glad you covered it
Why have we strayed away from things like this? This is literally a Warhammer 40K bolter .
Blood for the blood God!
"The stories about the SAS are actually true. They're all raving madmen."
You don't even hear stories about the SBS.... imagine what they're like 👀
I suspect there is alot more to this story on the British side. Do you routinely compare notes with Royal Armouries?
Given who was using it those stories probably can't be told.
@@marvindebot3264 indeed. But those are the best ones. He can tell if he finds out tho. :)
I herd he had a colab in the works with the royal armour. That one guy that does the real life vdo game gun's.
I've seen a reference to these, or the 53 in 5.56, being carried in cars in Northern Ireland specifically to use if they got a contact when driving. The drill being to magdump this from the backseat through the windshield, while others bailed out to engage.
@@norwegianwiking can’t imagine shooting something like that in the confines of a car lol
"Why are your range glasses tinted so dark?"
I enjoy listening to Ian, he always comes across as very chilled out and calm, Forgotten Weapons is my ASMR channel with guns, he should do a calming gun clean or something and put it out as an ASMR Autonomous sensory meridian response.
Employed as an "Anti ambush" weapon - straight from the horses's mouth. I met John Mcaleese at a training course years after the troubles and he mentioned carrying one of these. If the vehicle you were in was stopped by aggressors, you jump out, unload a full magazine and in the resulting chaos, make good your escape. Of course, there were other applications but it's very much a "shock and awe" weapon.
Very cool.
@Bannsider 100%.
Of course I met John through his later career of airsoft training and in my team at the time was a lad who had been in the Det - he often enthusaed about the HK53 for all the reasons we've mentioned.
For actual "business" it was 9mm all the way.
Man, you just gotta love these beauties for the sheer rediculousness.
Bonus points for actually been used by the SAS
I sure love the look of HK weapons. Mp5 and G3 are sexy as hell. Gotta get that SLAP
Hey Bill, these soviets made an even shorter version of their new standard issue carbine/rifle. You think you can that with ours?
Ironically, Bill Fleming designed and built that too.
for the missions where "stealth is optional" was taken to the extreme.
"what better way to make this even less comfortable than to add a collapsing stock..."Classic!
IAN OH MY GOD I CANNOT TELL YOU HOW LONG IVE WAITED FOR YOU TO COVER THIS GUN!!!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!
I was waiting for the end to have Ian say "And then in tomorrow's episode, we take this thing to the range" too bad we couldn't see that insane thing set of some car alarms
I don't recall for sure, but there was an article done about this project in one of the popular magazines of the time... Perhaps Soldier of Fortune or Guns and Ammo. The article also described what Flemming called a " Moderator " for this short beast. A short Suppressor, which was designed to be just enough to tame some of the blast and fire associated with the short barrel... Interesting project...!
This is one of the most chaotic ideas in the firearm industry ever
"Hk51 - when your armorer is Chaotic Neutral"
@@geodkyt the armorer is chaotic neutral and the user is chaotic evil😂😂😂
@@themythofthefacelessman2180 Frag grenade in hostage rescue = Neutral Evil ("When you don't care where the XP comes from.")
@@geodkyt Oh sweet jesus😂😂😂
Gotta love that roller delay though. Usually with a project like this they have to change so many components but all they really needed to make from scratch for this one was the barrel.
"I did not see that coming"
Not with all that flash.
You should do an episode on the SAS Door Knocker (an 870 with Hatton slugs).
I’m hoping Saturday morning’s episode is Ian shooting a 51 at night, wearing NVGs.
I have shot one on numerous occasions and was surprised by 2 things. 1) it really does not recoil that badly, I suspect largely due to drastically less energy developed by that short barrel. 2) How controllable it really is! We did most of our shooting at 75-100 yards and you could with practice keep all the shots of a mag dump in a fairly small area! it was a lot of fun to shoot!
When you say you keep all the shots in a fairly small area, you mean like Gurnsey, or The Isle of Wight, or Northwest...?
I knew an Indianapolis Police officer who actually had one of these and carried it in his cruiser (late 80's). But not for long. Your comment about the collapsing stock was spot on; very uncomfortable! He quickly swapped it out for a standard fixed stock. It wasn't long after that he decided to acquire an M1A Scout Squad rifle.
Double ear protection and sunglasses will be a must. Muzzle flash must be insane.
Ian just trebled that guns price in auction. Real SAS/SBS heritage on model. Everybody notices when owner opens up in a MG shoot. :)
That is alpha weapon.
This is what it seems like every other dude at the range is shooting near me. Concussion for days.
That only means that you don't need to compensate for any, ahem, biological shortcomings, and your range neighbors probably do. Go serene.
Their prolly using competition brakes ,I've had that happen at a few ranges .
“We’ve developed a full-auto flash bang dispenser…”
“Sounds useful.”
“… that primarily affects the user.”
I've shot one of these. The pressure wave you feel next to the gun is comparable to a 50 caliber rifle.
I remember as a kid seeing some footage of the belt fed version of these and was obsessed with it. The full belt dumps at a darkened range were epic.
*Reads "Full Auto Flashbang Dispenser" in the title*
Me: So this is an SMG with a rifle granade?
*watches first few minutes*
Me: So its literally a very loud, very overpowered Flashlight
In the comments to last week's video about the Vicker's K machine gun, someone corrected Ian on the difference between the SAS and the LRDG, saying something like the LRDG sneak in, observe quietly and sneak out, while the SAS sneak in and make a lot of noise. Seems very applicable to this week's video.
I had someone try to tell me this wasnt a real gun yesterday because "how could it be, its just to crazy"
The intended use of these would surely have been vehicle based engagments.
For example, the SAS spent a lot of time in civilian vehicles in NI on stakeouts, tailing POIs etc. If they got into a firefight, then something like this would have been fearsomely handy. 7.62 rifle that you can quickly pull up out from next to your seat would certainly be helpful if they got into a car chase or some kind of engagement.
I remember reading an account from 'Andy McNab' in Immediate Action where he found himself in a car chase in NI. How truthful it is, who knows, given the source, but certainly plausible.
The best part of this video though? That it's out on Friday, and I think we all know what Ian will be uploading for us tomorrow!
Imagine using a RICO muzzle device. Ultimate flashbang dispenser.
One of my favorite guns and I’m so glad to finally see a vid from you on one.
Room clearing with every shot a flashbang. I can see how that could be seen as useful.
From what I understand these were bought for N Ireland. The 53 was in use by SAS and 14 Int at the time but was found to struggle when shooting from vehicle to vehicle, so they wanted something compact size but in 7.62. They tried a few options including cut down automatic FALs with folding stocks and this thing but settled on the G3KA4.
The best thing about this, that I'm at least somewhat confident is true, is the unofficial name: G3 TNB - Turbo Nutter Bastard
It sounds about right to be fair :D
Based on their experiences in Northern Ireland, the SAS recognised that the 7.62mm round was far more effective against adversaries in vehicles than the 9mm or 5.56mm. As the SAS patrolled frequently in plain clothes in cars in Northern Ireland, and had a liking for the G3 battle rifle, the G3 KA4, a retractable stock version of the G3 with a shorter barrel was adopted. It was easier to carry and deploy from the confined spaces of a car. 14 Company also used them. I suspect this was an evolution of that idea, although I don’t believe one that was ever actually deployed in anger.
Something to note about these, especially in the discussion of braced pistols:
The roller delay action is very sensitive to how much support you have behind it. This means that if a gun is set up to function without a stock, it needs significantly higher bolt velocity to cycle reliably due to the way the recoil action can be absorbed by letting the gun move in your hands without a shoulder behind it.
When people take a PTR that has been set up to work as a pistol and then put a cheater brace on it, without changing the locking wedge or the mainspring, they invariably have a gun that recoils excessively, beats the rollers to crap, and even cracks the stock.
THIS IS NOT BECAUSE THE GUN IS CRAP.
THIS IS BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW IT WORKS AND FAILED TO ADJUST CRITICAL COMPONENTS.
The roller system would be better if it was actually gas operated instead of blowback. The hk system looks like a situation where the machinist forgot to drill a barrel port and changed the roller locking bar to a wedge. It's got almost all of the parts for it as is. But oh well, it's better to rely on everything being just right instead of designing it to be flexible right?
The story I had heard for the origins of the MC51 had to do with raids on drugs smugglers in the 80s, dudes had light armor and were high on who knows what so they wanted something that threw hammers. There was a leaflet that came with mine about it but it has long since been lost to time. It may be recovered in a basement one day but where I know not.
Great video. They are surprisingly heavy as well, but are still accurate (especially if you can get the damn claw to stay on). No joke about it being a flashbang dispenser. Also doubles as an emergency radiator.
I don't know what's more amazing. The fact that someone thought this was a good idea, or the fact the British special forces agreed with him.
Incredible. One of the best channels on youtube
I would've put a 3 round, or 2 round burst selector instead of fully automatic, myself.
You aren't in the 80s, and obviously haven't had your daily recommended does of cocaine yet.
I would go with "mechanically simple full auto + training" over a burst mechanism. You know, software solutions for software problems and all that...
Definitely from the "Hold my beer and watch this" school of firearms design.
The old Firearms mod for Half Life featured what I think is an interesting take on this old gun.
It was the HK-51, but belt fed with a 50 round belt... With obvious noise and flash issues modelled, but the compact firepower were noticeable.
That is the most understated tacticool contraption I've ever seen. All of the noise. All of the uncontrollability. All of the unpleasantries. None of the actual tactical advantages you first imagined. I love it!
This thing should be kitted out with a 3x scope, a carbon fiber speed holes hand guard and an under barrel flash light the size of Wyoming. For starters.
I was sincerely hoping Ian shot this one at a range, at dusk... for science.
I may be remembering wrongly, but years ago I seem to remember reading one of those memoirs of an SAS member books and this gun was mentioned as being developed as a car gun for covert ops in Northern Ireland as they wanted something that could easily and rapidly be maneuvered in and out of a vehicle, but having more punch than a 9mm MP5.
I hate to think of the hearing damage if it became necessary to fire this beast from inside a vehicle.
I kept waiting for Ian to say, "and tomorrow I'll be shooting this at the range".
Well he kinda did, with Inrange a couple months/years ago when they compared .308 to 7.62*39 in short barrels. Not full auto though...
With the sear in it this is a 35 to 40k weapon. Prob have to buy it to shoot it.
@@randomidiot8142 And now he has in fact.
A few things you could have also mentioned; They use a custom locking piece due to the lower bolt thrust. They use a telescoping recoil rod, which is fixed on all the other roller guns. And finally, there is an even more ridiculous HK51k with a 5" barrel.
I have chronographed my HK51k at 1600 fps, half of what the velocity should be.
That just seems like love and hate all in one beautiful package
I just spent 7 & ½ minutes waiting for him to shoot it. Dis-uh-pointed!
J/K...mostly.
Very cool video and neat history of a cool weapon. Thanks for sharing!
The only time "Slightly more practical" would be applicable to an HK53.
I built a 12.5" bbl AR 308. The muzzle blast on that is quite sufficient, thank you.
Incidentally, Ian is spot on with the heavy bullets and suppressor host bit. My SBR is a suppressor host and, I hand load .308 ammo for it using 225gr bullets.
This weapons' T count is through the roof
Blasting his face off and diced to the gills crying laughing face 4x
Think i recall Andy McNab wrote about using this in Immediate Action, during operations in Ireland. Compact for vehicles and relatively consealable with the fire power to put anything down.. and very very loud..
Armorer: We have some burp guns. You want to try one of those?
SAS: Do you have anything a little bigger?
Armorer: We have a deep down belly belch gun?
SAS: Yes. Please.
HK53. We used alongside RMP Close Protection. And of course 14 Int, SAS/SBS. At the time a advanced weapon system. We were still bringing along the HI Power 9mm and Sterling SMG
/me scratches my head
"is that the first SMG in .308 I see in my life ??"
As far as I know (I looked into this when I made replica) the SBS (not sure about the SAS) needed a suppressed version which they got but due to continuous heavy fouling caused by the close proximity of the suppressor to the large amount of combusting propellant, they switched to the smaller 556 for reliability reasons even though it was a less powerful round than they had initially wanted.