Install both DE's on the same OS....and switch as you see fit...done. I see no reason to bash either....I prefer Gnome on notebooks for how its flow works with s single screen BUT...at home an my 3 screen setup....KDE.
I have been a Linux user since last 3 years and used GNOME most of the time. Recently gave KDE a try and now every other DE seems dull and useless to me.
Gnome really killed my DE hopping and WM hopping. I used to use KDE plasma but I was doing more customizing rather then doing the job. I love vanilla gnome for its simplicity and usability.
I couldn’t care less about what DE or WM someone uses. Linux is all about CHOICE, and if GNOME is what someone chooses then more power to them. It’s none of my business. 🤷♂️
@eddmnd I guess in that case the choice is to either not use gnome (an entirely valid choice thankfully on Linux - consider how this is completely impossible in Windows) OR to modify the code, since it is completely available and allowed
@@user-23590 It all comes down to "Do One Thing And Do It Well." imo. If that's done right, there's no conflicting want for something since you can pick the parts you want and don't want. It's only when something does more than one thing that there's an issue. Of course that line is blurry with a DE
@@robs6394 But there are limits to that philosophy, i mean the Linux kernel itself isn't like that. Heck definition of "one thing" is vague. My point is, if he wanted something specific and advanced things like OpenRC and syslog-ng, i don't think he doesn't know what DE or GNOME DOs and DONTs, bad example.
I agree with you in some parts as yeah xfce and LXQT are good for certain things but gnome if you looks at it from regular day to day thing is just less annoying if you want to install an os and just don't want to modify and it just works gnome is the guy. Unless you install an os and then it as you would you like to have default apps on the bar in Xfce and then you got to make more time to customize it or you have graphic limitations on LXQT but awesome for lower spec hardware so it depends on what people are using it for, thus the reason open source is growing and others are stagnant!!
@@wii166 Mr gamer go on your settings - then window titlebar then turn on minimize button... This proves your intellect is equal to an ant... People like you make real Linux guys like us look bad!! Looking at you people think all Linus people are like you who open their mouth before thinking!! Learn first then start complaining!! Why it's not turned on by default cause as administrators we use alt+tab and so called users like you don't even understand why it was done!!! Have a good life in your bubble land!!
@@abhrasrepository1173 ubuntus gnome is not stock gnome its extremly customized compared to stock gnome I belive fedora uses a gnome version pretty close to stock
Plasma is great. XFCE is the best overall, imo, but Plasma actually works more consistently for me with things like multi-monitor setups. If you strip out a lot of the animations and unnecessary services, you can run it pretty darn lean too. Not quite XFCE, but not that far off either.
Ye ancient desktop cluttering is so stupid i got rid of that years ago. whenever i get to a desk of a computer that is "broken" and i see full windows desktop full of folders i know where the problems lie^^
I can't stand either desktop icons (except I do like having a dock to switch between apps rather than a taskbar) or Gnome. You can hit the Super key and search for apps to launch in any DE.
Desktop icons don't make sense considering how people manage their windows nowadays. A lot of workflows imply running 2-3 applications in fullscreen or split side-by-side (web browsing, programming, word processing, etc.). So you basically never see your desktop, it's always obstructed by windows. In this case it makes more sense to have a full screen application launcher like Gnome does since it pretty much does the same thing as desktop (presents a list of shortcuts) but better (it also has search functionality, an Activities view and a workspace pager
@@praetorxyn Yeah, but GNOME is specifically designed for that kind of workflow. In XFCE, for instance (I have to use it at work, that's why I singe it out), unless you play around with it quite a lot, the superkey will open a puny window in the corner - when there's a whole screen it could use - as it does in GNOME 3+. To me, even a very few desktop icons seem messy, no matter where they are. In the end it's all down to personal preference, though. My real issue is with people complaining about "bloat" in GNOME while using KDE. Reason? The two of them are pretty much equivalent in terms of resources used. And even when I used Cinnamon and Mate on my computers, I didn't notice any real difference in performance. Customisability? Well, yeah, some DEs allow for more of that. But if it meets, even anticipates, all your needs OOTB, why bother? I am a GNOME fanboy, yeah. Two or three extensions (Dash-to-Dock, Removable Drives, GSConnect), and I've got exactly the DE I want. Love it!
Gnome has caused me some headache, but its simplicity saved me a lot of headache. One thing I love is the adwaita theme. Just unifies the system with code editor themes and looks pretty and modern.
@@birchtree5884 They really polished it in the latest releases, the icons used to look pretty outdated. To me default gnome is one of the best looking DEs out there, but that's kinda subjective. The huge header bars still rub me the wrong way though.
@@b0ba_884 That's the beauty of using linux. We can choose whatever we want then customize it as our needs. Nothing's perfect for everyone, just choose something suits you best and go/deal with it.
My hubby left KDE when it turned to plasma 5. He says they lost too much functionality, so he joined me on Mate, which is the second most customizable DE around.
Great video! I don't hate Gnome. But there are somethings which I don't like about Gnome. 1) Very thick title bars/multiple title bars. When I'm opening Firefox, I'll have 1 Gnome bar, 1 firefox title bar and 1 Firefox tab bar. This gives the impression that 1.5 inch of the screen is basically wasted. Also, the title bars in gnome is quite thick by default. I changed it by using Dash to Panel extension 2) The floating side panel thing - I don't like it poking out as it's distracting. The goal of a DE is to be practically invisible but yet allow him to focus on his work. 3) The activities tab - When I press it, there is too much motion and change in the screen. I rather have simple static previewable windows in the bottom. However, Gnome's Alt-tab is fine. I changed it by using the Arc menu extension. Other than these gripes, I have no problems with Gnome which make it "unusable". There are plenty of keyboard shortcuts for power-users. It's snappy. PS : I don't use Gnome very often. I use i3 :P
It's possible to disable the titlebar in firefox(click on Customize in the firefox menu, the option to disable the titlebar is on the bottom left of the window)
You can remove the title bar in Firefox, and with the right userchrome.css file, it looks consistent with the rest of the Gnome applications, which don't tend to take up much space if they can help it.
What keeps bringing me back to gnome is the keyboard shortcuts, workspaces, and mostly the way it LOOKS. Once you theme it how you want it, it looks and feels great! Unlike KDE and XFCE for me, that never look and feel right to me even after months of tweaking. Still, I like Cinnamon the best. But sadly Gnome and Cinnamon are the only DEs that dont make me feel like using the computer is Chinese Water Torture. Constant, subtle annoyances that end up making me feel like losing my mind.
HAHAHAHA Man I love your video! I came back to Linux after almost 8 years and that is exactly what happened when trying different distros and DE. At some point I installed Ubuntu and spent 3 DAYS installing extensions, customizing them... and still some things were amiss or at the end it was awesome as I would like but the animations were awful so I turned them off... then I thought on the 4th day when testing Mandriva with KDE "You know what?! Screw Ubuntu with Gnome" and formated the partition, installed Mint with Cinnamon and in 1 hour I did the same I already did in 3 work days of Gnome 3 to make it work like that. If you ask me Manjaro with Gnome3 come with almost all the important extensions, so you can customize them out the box and feels wayyy better and natural. The fun fact is... why keep beating a dead horse? Why keep doing something one way when most people will go for changing it ASAP? Gnome3 should come by default with at least some options/extensions and try to have them in mind when updating.
That's the way - respect all around paired with "this is what works best for me, personally, and if we need a discussion then let it be constructive." From my end, the same mutatis mutandis.
The Zorin devs did a pretty good job with their GNOME customization. For me, the only downside that KDE has is that it dosen't feature dynamic workspaces.
It will be much better to learn to drive the car. Or keep the wagon. Putting horses back there to pull the car is the worst of both worlds, and is that's what Zorin does
@@mariozenarju6461 Shell extensions were not meant to be used to the extend they are used, but the DE just doesn't cut it so they had to be implemented. How sane is it to load all the extensions on the main thread and give them access to the whole internals and during the main loop execution so that a single badly behaving extension can lock the whole DE?
Keyboard shortcuts should be discoverable, yet the GNOME apps do not even show all commands available in the UI (like Cut, Copy, and Paste which are some times omitted from the UI), so you first have a problem of knowing a command exist. Then, the shortcut should be written beside the command, so that it is easily discoverable, the user should not have to go to a dedicated window that list all the shortcuts and manually search though it and mechanically memorize it. And lastly, the UI should have a logical hierarchy for presenting command, not to throw all of them in a single menu and whatever does not fit there, just throw it away or hide it in the most obscure places (try bookmarking a folder in Nautilus without dragging and dropping, as a user might not know about that, and see if you can figure out where the command to do so is hidden; if the UI presented the user with a classic oh-so-hated menu bar, you'd find it in an instant).
@@vali20vali20vali20 For the Extensions issue: I search its page for solutions, and if there are none, just find an alternative that works. And since I'm using an LTS DE, there's no fear of the extension suddenly "breaking" Gnome. And for the part with nitpicks: I've never seen a person turning so many obvious design choices into flaws. Gnome's just meant to work that way, and if you don't like it, then it's not for you. For example, you could say how KDE is oversaturated and bloated with too many choices in customisation, a first time user will definitely find a way to break it at least twice in the first day. Doesn't that sound a bit biased? There's a reason you have a choice with Linux
Valentin Radu I only use Vanilla Gnome. Not Ubuntu Gnome. No extensions or tweaks. Just stock Gnome. It’s the most comfortable and intuitive desktop environment I’ve used since the original BeOS or Macintosh System 6. Ironically, I like Gnome precisely because it abandons the traditional desktop paradigm. No start menu? Good. No desktop icons? Good. (Although one may choose these options if desired.) The keyboard shortcuts are the easiest I’ve ever learned. Easier than i3. Easier than emacs. Easier than macOS. Gnome shortcuts are a dream. Stupidly simple and intuitive. Effortless efficiency. I understand that Gnome is polarizing and that many Linux users don’t like it. I used to hate Gnome with a burning passion, so I understand. Yet now it’s my favorite desktop environment. It has room to improve, but I enjoy using it every day. I’m not suggesting that you or anyone should like Gnome, but remember that there are plenty of Gnome users who love Gnome for precisely the reasons that other people hate it. If you don’t mind, what desktop environment do you prefer? No judgment, since people should use whatever works for them. But I’m quite curious.
The host is missing a really important point about how Gnome changed when he says "Gnome isn't meant to be used like that". A lot of the users who were using Gnome back when Gnome shell first dropped, had been using Gnome since it's first iteration. What we wanted from Gnome were bug fixes. We got a whole new UI instead. Which wasn't even targeted at the core user base. It was very clearly targeted at tablet users and still is. So Gnome devs burned their core users and just cast them aside. That's always going to leave a bad taste. Gnome devs then made that situation worse by deliberately breaking compatibility with third party themes. Even with minor updates themes used to break. And there was no good reason for it. And as far as I can remember. Third party extensions were never really meant to be a thing either. Nautilus used to be one of the most powerful file managers that could be found on a Linux desktop. Now it's been gutted to the point where it can't even create a text file without the user taking the time to create a template first. For a text file. Gnome devs think this is an amazingly powerful feature. Do you want to deploy a desktop background system-wide for all users? In the old days you could just drop that wallpaper in /usr/share/backgrounds and it'd be there for all to use. Now you need to edit 2 XML config files before Gnome will even see the thing.
I find GNOME absolutely horrendous to use because it feels like it's meant for touchscreen instead of mouse and keyboard just like the disastrous windows 8
"Of course when you add that many extensions to a working system its bound to break" I can count the number of extensions that I've had break on me with one shop teachers hand. Things like dash to dock or dash to panel have been very stable for me for several years.
Some people add 14-20 extensions because for them it's the absolute minimum to make Gnome "usable" (a.k.a. like KDE). And then when one breaks they go "omg gnome is sooooo unstable and laggy"
Hi there, I'm not a regular GNOME user personally but I also tried it and understand your points of view, so I'd like to answer some of your arguments. - On GNOME being "resource-heavy": I agree with you that this is past history and I also find GNOME to be perfectly acceptable on that side nowadays. However, I wouldn't place it on the "light" side either, it still rather heavy compared to other DEs. The fact that you can disable animations using an extension shouldn't be an argument, as it just shouldn't be necessary in the first place. - On features and customization: what I would say is this is a design choice that was made and you're just not forced to use it if you don't like that, that's the beauty of Linux. However, I don't personally think any reason could forgive the fact of removing crucial elements like tray icons by default - and the fact that you can download some obscure extension to do that job doesn't fix the problem: the desktop will seem unusable for a new user who depends on tray icons and don't know about extensions. - On general design: I agree that having a tablet-ish interface isn't an actual problem. However, I think that "GNOME IS KEYBOARD CENTRIC" is a plain LIE used to answer all UI problems: I can have the exact same shortcuts on any other DE, most of the time out of the box, and WITH the ability to change them if I want. People should just stop using this argument. - On themes: the reason most themes doesn't feel right is that Adwaita being baked into GTK, the themes need to overwrite ALL of the properties set by this very messy and bloated theme. To conclude, I would say that GNOME is definitely not for everyone, as you already said. While the full-screen UI and very limited customization are design decisions that I think should be respected, I still struggle to find any relevant reasons to use GNOME daily. I hope this answer was helpful, bye !
@@MrDaskon Let me guess, you never wanted to admit all modern desktops have the exact same shortcuts. Did you? More seriously, I want to be fair and I'll give it another try. But I have my custom shortcuts set up here and for no reason I would want to drop them ;)
In reality (in the most technical terms), the best desktop environment is the one you want/need to use. Whatever serves your purposes and meets your needs (as the end user, organization, administrator, etc) is the best tool for the job. There are also different people who like a variety of different things and are comfortable with different ways of doing things. It is great to have options.
You are though. It's like trying to hammer a nail with pliers. If that's what you want to do, just use a hammer :) Expecting every tool in a shed to be a hammer is wrong though
This is why I don't use Gnome, it doesn't fit my workflow AND it assumes I'm not qualified to modify it so that it does. I'd really like to eliminate most Gnome and GTK apps from my system, because I hate the mindset that the Gnome project has abput its users. It's the same philosophy as Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook, etc., just provided with the source code. This awful idea of "we the developers of software know the best way to make software usable for you, dear user." B. S. I've been programming for nearly 10 years now, and I won't take such disrespect from the code I use. So I don't, because of the freedom of open source, even the freedom to be philosophically closed.
@@silentgameplays It sounds like the problem lies with not having any software development skills. I don't get it - people claim to love Unix operating systems but they don't have the discipline to learn computer science fundamentals.
Here are my two cents on Gnome: Firsly, the start menu/launchpad thing. I don't see how being fullscreen gives it more functionality. Ironically the windows start menu has shown that you don't need a fullscreen menu to include programs, files and web search results. Besides not needing it to be this big, it is simply uncomfortable having all the icons so far apart (most FPS players have fairly low mouse sensitivity, at least csgo players), so that results in way bigger movements to achieve something that is easier in other DEs. Secondly, other desktop environments also serve its purpose well without a lot of customization (I personally use mostly stock KDE with only minor theming and the start menu closer to that of older Windows versions), but at least those are customizable. Gnome seems like it's hacked together and almost falling apart with the little customizability it has to offer. (and requiring javascript extensions) And last but not least, I personally believe a DE should be complete with and without keyboard shortcuts. I'm a guy who uses relatively few shortcuts, but with many major and beginner distros using Gnome by default newcomers who are used to Windows (and therefore probably fewer shortcuts) will most likely be struggling when their system is not mouse-oriented. ps: blah blah not native english speaker, hopefully my point gets across. 100% subjective though, I won't judge gnome users
the thing is when you press windows and start typing it would be better if it would be in the middle of your screen, so that you can see what you type without tiliting your head or moving your eyes. When you press the windows key and type you aren't looking at anything but what you are tying, so it makes sense to prominently display it and give more search results and infos about those. You switch, pin and close windows with shortcuts and can keep your hands on your keyboard. If you are used to shortcuts gnome is great. You can keep your hands on your keyboard most of the time and can stare blankly in the middle of the screen to use it and then keep staring in the endless void of black pixels.
@Drakon Daedalus That's actually kinda possible in KDE. It has a seperate menu to launch apps by pressing alt+spacebar. That opens a searchbar in the top middle of your screen which functions almost the same as your start menu search.
unfortunately we receive also what Gnome think is good for us. With GTK3+ in the latest XFCE version you may noticed some bad changes. Like that: gtk.10911.n7.nabble.com/How-to-get-a-quot-traditional-quot-file-chooser-td92530.html#message92557 The : "find-as-you-type" function at the FileDialog is gone. Now you have an useless searching function, because it works better on tablets. even so there is some restistance - aur.archlinux.org/packages/gtk3-typeahead/ - but I think sooner or later they will destroy the complete gnome/GTK GUI for desktop users.
I just can't switch away from gnome. Every time I use a other DE I miss the finish, simplicity en consistentie. I'm currently using Zorin OS( About a weak before that Pop OS also love that os) and love it, I just changed the start menu to the gnome overview.
Cinnamon tried to turn Gnome 3 into Gnome 2, but whenever I use it, I think, "Where's the rest of it?" It's almost like the DE us hiding some customization from me, but that's really all there is.
I absolutely love Gnome's workflow with only one single exception. I find myself needing to install Dash to Dock (with intelligent autohide) every time. Gnome has never felt right to me without it, especially on newer 40+ releases. By default, Gnome makes you use the hot corner to pull up Activities, then you have to travel all the way to the bottom of the screen for the dock/applications list, which is just a bit cumbersome if I just want to see a quick list of running applications or my favorites. Dash to Dock (even with autohide) is a lifesaver for me and means much less mouse travel (and a less overwhelming UI) if I just need something simple. All in all, I greatly appreciate Gnome's dedication to modern technology and progressive/forward-thinking concepts. They brought A LOT of innovation to the Linux desktop, and I find that I like it even better than Mac OS (once I have my Dash to Dock tweak of course). It's also the only desktop environment I've ever tried that had truly 100% support for Wayland and 4K displays out of the box.
tbh gnome is quite alien to me , im sticking with xfce here . if i have to change my de , maybe i will go for kde or window manager instead where i can customize to make my workflow as efficient as possible while keeping resources aplenty . but until there is an absolute necessity for me to step away from xfce , i will stick to the mouse 4.14 .
That's the great thing about XFCE and Plasma, they wont change things radically on you, and they wont force decisions on you like gnome would. That is my number one reason why i like XFCE and Plasma more than Gnome. I don't want the developers deciding i don't like something, i want to decide that myself and have a choice to continue using my desktop that way without using shoddy extensions that slow down the system and break between desktop updates. Mate, LXQT, KDE LiquidShell, or Lumina aren't bad choices either imo.
I used to use Gnome, I do like the environment. I was curious about tiling WMs so I tried i3, I love it and prefer the workflow and will probably not go back.
I prefer KDE too, but we're on a religious topic here. There are probably some people who actually *like* GNOME. I see some of them here. To each their own.
... unless you are a GNOME kind of person ;-). KDE and GNOME are roughly equivalent in resource use, depending on the distros and precise settings. As for usability etc, it's no more nor less than personal preferences. In my case, I'm 100% GNOME, but once more, that's personal preference.
@@8a41jt Me, for instance. I just adore GNOME. While I rather share your point of view (not a rational and universal question), I do object to the adjective "religious". Is preferring lager over ale or stout over IPA a religious question? Neither is preferring one DE over another.
@@joschafinger126 Apologies, then. The word "religious" wasn't meant to have any other connotation than an unshakable faith in one's preferences. *I have to admit I just don't like GNOME3 (yet).* The Foundation's claims of "efficient workflow" and "workflow of the future" are no more than opinions, and as implemented, aren't as intuitive as the Foundation touts ... at least to me. When I spend more time _looking_ for expected controls than _using them,_ I've got a problem. And I see many of my professional colleagues having the same and similar issues. Sure, customization is possible, but documentation about how to do so is sparse. This generation of GDMs has a bit more to evolve, I suppose we'll see what the next generation delivers. At least the GDMs for Linux are evolving at all, which is good news -- methinks -- for the entire user community.
A while ago it suddenly dawned on me that almost all the really major distros (Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, ...) were using GNOME as their default desktop. I thought there had to be a reason behind that and decided to really give it a shot. And lo and behold, after watching a few videos about the intended workflow (keyboard shortcuts, workspaces, etc.) I began to see GNOME in a new light. It really is quite a usable and comfortable desktop. Yes, it demands more RAM than say, XFCE, but really, which PC from within the last ten years will struggle with that? That said, I also love minimal and resource-friendly desktops such as Openbox, IceWM, etc. Both approaches have their merits.
Debian's most used version is MX-18 (Xfce), Ubuntu doesn't count as they switch desktops more often than Windows, and Fedora was forced on Gnome3 since it's mothership, RHEL, is the driving force behind it. Look not at the industry leaders, as they don't have a foothold in the hobbyist's mom n dad realm but look at where it counts: MX, Mint, Manjaro (and other Arches). None of them won't even touch Gnome3 with a 10' pole. Why? Because they want to keep their users happy and help them becoming productive members of society.
@@orcaflotta7867 You realize that the distrowatch ratings are not real 'most used' ratings? They just measure clicks on their website. Debian is most certainly far, far more prevalent than MX-18 (which is a great distro, btw), and its default desktop is Gnome. So I'd assume it is in pretty widespread use. And when has Windows really changed its basic desktop metaphor? The only time I can remember might be Windows 8 with its weird touc/mouse-hybridization, but that's it.
@@ThePressurizer "You realize that the distrowatch ratings are not real 'most used' ratings?" Yes. I never took DW's hit parade as a real indicator. But distros like Debian and Ubuntu aren't even in the race. They are used by corporations and shit and bear no resemblance to the real Linux base. I guess the amateur installation base is indeed pretty close to what we see in the DW charts. "Debian is most certainly far, far more prevalent than MX-18 (which is a great distro, btw)" No, it's not. Now that Deb10 is finally out, I'd almost rate that over MX. "and its default desktop is Gnome." That's why I said it's not a great distro. Good distros come with a whole plethora of DEs and WMs to make as many people happy as possible. That's one of Linux's biggest plus points: The freedom of choice.The time for one-trick ponies like MX is over. "So I'd assume it is in pretty widespread use." Not because of MX but because of RHEL and Ubuntu, whose poor corporate wage slaves have to use it because their bosses say so. And let's not forget the so-called power users with their penchant for keyboard shortcuts. Really abominable. "And when has Windows really changed its basic desktop metaphor?" Win 3.1 --> Win 95/98 --> XP --> Vista --> Win7 --> Win8 --> Win10. All big jumps for normal human beings. I remember we had to organize schoolings for all the secretaries, accountants and administrators. In the end, if you really want Linux to enter the mass market - and that's what all you fanatics are talking about, you can't do it with a freakshow DE such as Gnome3 or any of the WMs. The human race is used to mouseclick operation since 40 years or so. And lately they even smear their fatty fingers across their screens. And you wanna get all those sloppy idots into keyboard operation? Really???
What's your point? You criticize Gnome 3 for being too unwieldy for new users but at the same time you call people who want Linux to enter the mass market fanatics. What exactly would be your suggestion? Here's mine: I don't think Linux will or should enter the mass market for home users as a direct competitor to Windows. To appeal to your typical desktop user (not interested in tech maybe) you'd have to compromise a lot, and I think Windows shows where that leads. You'd have to take away a lot of choices and customization options to make installation and use as simple as possible and sooner or later you'd end up with an OS that installs stuff in the background and so on.
@@ThePressurizer "You criticize Gnome 3 for being too unwieldy for new users" No, not unwieldy, just too poorly conceptualized and executed. Not made for human beings = Bad DE. "but at the same time you call people who want Linux to enter the mass market fanatics". Yes. "I don't think Linux will or should enter the mass market for home users as a direct competitor to Windows." Neither do I. I'm feeling good and smug in my elite ivory tower.
Used GNOME for most of the time I'd known Linux, tried KDE a few weeks ago and can't really go back anymore. It might be a bit more buggy from time to time, but it more than makes up for it with the customization and utilities.
"If you launch a lot of apps the animations become kind of clunky" Bruh, on my laptop the animations were like that without any apps, only with GNOME itself.
It's been over a year now jeez It only got smooth until 3.36 on which the statement of the video is true, but I feel like when GNOME 40 gets in Manjaro it will be a step backwards. When I made that comment I was in a 2011-ish laptop, so, yeah. I'm on a kinda better one now, but don't even bother with GNOME anymore, XFCE and LXQt all the way.
i like gnome for being very approachable to newbies. i think it's much easier than stock KDE, and apps are more coherent in design. in kde some settings are spread across multiple places, maybe it's a bit better now. it may feel restricted in its customizability and how they break extensions now and then, but it's imho perfect for people sticking to clean, stock experience who have little experience with computers.
@@sid__art_6614 i do. it's highly annoying to have constantly make sure your preferences stick. updates keep resetting your default browser and adding more and more telemetry nobody asked for. that and those annoying popups. and the in os advertising. KDE is like windows7 more or less, when windows UX was probably at its peak. from that point on, microsoft started thinking they know better what the user wants.
@@yoshi314 Trust me, I love KDE bcoz of so much customisations. Also, I hate KDE bcoz of so much customisations. 😅😅😅 Gnome helps me relax and just focus on my job, KDE on the other hand wastes my time in customisation. But now it's been 3 years I am on xmonad and it just works for me. Gnome and KDE both are bloated. Also, I hate Ubuntu, I love Fedora for Gnome on the other hand for KDE i love Opensuse. Fedora gnome uses 1.2 gigs of my ram. Opensuse KDE uses just about 600mb of ram.
i think this is what I needed to hear for choosing gnome over KDE. I love KDE, I mean,you can do whatever you want with it but with all that options I just get overwhelmed
simplistic approach. no barking at one side or the other for right or wrong or even taking side. i thoroughly enjoyed your take on this. and i love gnome; a lot. well done.
I've a friend who uses GNOME on Arch - he keeps whining about how GNOME shell rapidly climbs from 80MB to well over 1.2GB+ of RAM usage within just moments of him dragging some windows around on screen.
GNOME ain't lite, true. So, if your machine can't take it use something else or get a more powerful computer. In the realm of fully-fledged DEs, GNOME is simply at the upper end of normal in terms of resource needs. If you're a GNOME type it's worth it. If you're not, look for something better suited to your style. And, of course, if you know how to reduce the weight of GNOME and can write the code, I bet folks over at the GNOME project would love to hear about it.
Ye this is very true, I'd recommend to have at least 16 gb of ram if u run gnome and want to do anything more than read email. Otherwise it's just too much effort to keep your resource usage in mind all the time.
Joscha Finger If I had a penny for each time I heard "get a more powerful computer" as response to such criticism, I'd have a small fortune. How about "make less wasteful software"?
@@jojoposter Friends don't let friends use GNOME on Arch.
5 лет назад+12
For me Gnome is the only DE for a long time now. Vanilla without any extensions, as you recommended. Hot corner (or what) is one of the best things anyone ever invented. Excellent video, keep up the good work dude!
I use gnome for the simple reason that is the default in the distributions I like. However, it has problems and denying it is not the way to improve. In my opnion the biggest gnome mistake is supposing users workflow rather than asking the users what they like (asking the old way, not collecting data).
Changing what DE or WM you use is trivial in Linux. You just install it and create a file called ~/.xinitrc and call what you want to use there. .xinitrc is also kind of your start up file for X too. If there's any programs you want to run every session you put them ahead of your DE or WM declaration line. You end those lines in an ampersand & This is what my .xinitrc file looks like: # Window Maker default X session startup script PATH="$PATH:/usr/local/bin" # If you login from xdm, uncomment this to make error messages appear # in the console window. # # tail -f "/home/pfred1"/.xsession-errors > /dev/console & xset m 3/2 0 & xdg-settings set default-web-browser chromium-browser.desktop exec /home/pfred1/bin/wmmenu -m apps & exec /home/pfred1/bin/wmclock -12 & exec wmaker
Deepin might not be particularly resource efficient, but I love how it looks and that’s why I use it. I think a DE doesn’t need to be the fastest, most efficient ever to be a good DE. There’s other reasons why something can be nice.
On my main daily driver rig I've used GNOME2, then Unity, then Cinnamon, then GNOME3, then Budgie on Solus, then Plasma, then DeepinDE, then back to Plasma and now back to GNOME3. Every DE has pros and cons. I'll use GNOME or Plasma. I don't care. In either DE I usually create a hybrid Gnome/Plasma workflow anyway. I use GNOME with Dash to Panel (which is very well done these days and continuously developed) and in Plasma I enable hot-corners and use the full screen launcher. As of late (past 6 months) Gnome has been running very well on Wayland. I'm looking forward to the 3.34 release. On lower powered machines I'll use XFCE because it is just so stable but I've noticed Plasma's memory usage at idle is getting pretty close to XFCE. Peppermint is pretty great. On very low powered machines I'll just run LXQt (which can be a little buggy) or LXDE (which everyone is abandoning) I highly recommend Raspbian for old netbooks, Raspberry Pi's (obviously) Great channel. Great content.
I never even thought about using Raspbian on my netbook. I installed Lubuntu to semi-mirror my desktop (Ubuntu, but they dropped 32-bit in to the shitter) But then I deleted it after realizing they've made some horrific changes and replaced Good Things with Bad Things for No Reason At All. Classic "let's change shit for no raisin!" move. WHY?! Might try Raspbian out. I literally was considering stripping out the hardware and slapping a Pi in there anyway and 3D printing a new base plate to add extra space for stuff.
I'm a type of user that prefers to get bare minimum and customize it to the point of usability, rather than get a fully-functional DE and spend half a day disabling so many features. GNOME is especially bad because if you want to customize anything you have to install a plugin. But ok, thanks to this video I understood why it's stock DE in most popular distros.
In my experience, it's the "Power Users" who eventually like GNOME because it saves loads of time. That's because a power user loves to explore and see what the features are, and do not just dismiss the entire DE for being different than what they are used to. A good example is that you don't need a panel with your programs sorted into groups in GNOME anymore. You just hit the Super key, and start typing vaguely what you want, and GNOME serves it up to you immediately. That's much faster and less confusing than trying to remember that Blender is stored under "Graphics Applications" or wherever it's automatically sorted. That's right, hit Super key and start typing "Blender", and by the time you get to "ble" it's the only icon on the screen and you can just hit return to launch it. There's nothing simpler than that, and after using it, everything else seems like an overcomplicated frustrating waste of time. Sure, it's got icons, etc for touch-screen devices too, but I've never had to use the app drawer for anything. I've been using Gnome for years now, and it's still the least pain I've ever experienced in any OS (including Mac and Windows). It's not king of customisation, it's true. Go KDE if that's your bag. I left that behind when I stopped having time to pimp out my systems. GNOME does most of what I had to spend a day configuring in Compiz, and does it out of the box.
Wolfgang's Channel, true and actually that’s what a lot of devs (hello, mr. Torvalds) in the Linux community do - whatever’s the opposite of “marketing”.
I heavily disagree with many of your points. 1. You've said alot of functionality was moved to extensions, but then said don't expect things to work between updates if you used extensions. 2. Taskbar icons for applications are mandatory. Some applications have that as their only ui presence and not having them makes those applications unusable, having that moved to an extension that "might break whenever" isn't acceptable. 3. A cut down settings menu isn't a plus, its a huge detriment. I hate having to look up console commands, config files, or extensions to change something that should be a checkbox in the settings menu. KDE has the right idea (although it could be more organized). 4. Awidata is space inefficient and therefore a terrible theme. Its acceptable as a default and doesn't look too bad but when its the only theme and everything has thick bars with generous padding it really wastes alot of usable space with no viable way to compact it besides getting a higher resolution monitor. 5. The issue with windows stealing focus from KRunner can be adjusted but changing the window focus stealing rules in the KDE settings. (I don't remember having this issue in the past though) 6. The new icon theme is inferior to the previous one, not that it couldn't have been further improved (that creepy cheese icon), but this is a backwards step, I dislike flat styled icons. I originally got into linux because of 2 things, colored folders and compiz fusion. Stuff that makes my computer more enjoyable to use while also helping reduce the needed steps to complete a task are what I value. Most of what gnome seems to work towards is in conflict to that. Not that it's *terrible*, but I don't see myself ever using it over KDE.
Oh, right, i forgot. We all LOVE the default workflow of the DE, because why would you use anything outside of it, right? Who would even want something customized to their tastes? Where could i've heard that story? Oh, right! Apple! We all love that, right? We are running linux. The whole all deal about it IS customization and modularity, and gnome is trying to make it monolith, that's where it goes very, very wrong, since it's as far from "unix way" as one can even hope to go. Not only that, but their whole attitude is just ducked to the core, how they think that what they do is not just the best, but "the right way", while not providing anything that could justify their approach or their attitude. GNOME as DE doesn't provide anything particularly interesting(i mean better touch comparability is not something you need on your average desktop), but they have lots of disadvantages. However i like GNOMEs' approach on the library part, how gtk doesn't try to be a swiss army knife like QT does. They focus solely on the UI, they don't use dirty hacks like qmake, they don't try to make gtk commercial(which qt is clearly trying to do now) and that's how it should be done in my opinion. If it wasn't for their "way of thinking" GNOME would be my DE of choice.
@@worldhello1234 in the video he suggests not to customize gnome and make it look like what you want, because it breaks and you'll be unhappy with it, I did customization and I am using my system without issues with updates and I am very happy with it, it was just a point of disagreement with the video, I think gnome customization is great and I would not like it to see it go, and the more people use it the better! The hoops you have to go trough to customize it are worth the satisfaction you get when you use a system you customized yourself :-)
You can't change animations on gnome. I tried but nothing seemed to work. If you have some idea on how to change animations and animation speed while opening /closing apps or minimizing then do let me know. I am looking to apply magic lamp animation (mac style) for app animations in gnome desktop. I haven't found a way yet.
12:40 this is basically what Zorin OS does. Coming from Windows, my first distro was Zorin, as it is marketed as a Windows-replacement. Trying to use it like Windows is a nightmare. Desktop icons don't properly align, tray is constantly glitching, the bottom panel is very limited and clunky for a Windows panel, every time I switched keyboard input, it would freeze for a moment, and there were many other issues. Since this was my first experience with Linux, I actually thought this was how Linux is in general: buggy, underdeveloped, a poor man's Windows. Soon enough I switched to Cinnamon and it was like a day/night difference. So I'm on Linux Mint now and am quite happy. Now, for me going back to Windows wasn't an option, so I was willing to stick with Linux through all the difficulties, but others might be put off by something like this. Perhaps Zorin should stop trying to pass off Gnome for something it isn't. It's arguably doing a disservice to both Linux and Gnome, pushing Windows users away from Linux.
The biggest problem with GNOME and GTK for developer is that the documentation often sucks and is not available. Doing real stuff is very complicated. Write your own text widget and you know what i'm talking about. The CSS theming is still totally undocumented after 5 years and there are no tutorials. Just man pages that give detail but never concepts and bird view design descriptions.
Wolfgang: That feature exist, just use an extantion. Also Wolfgang: Don't install to many extantions, it will break with the next update. Why the f should I use this DE?
It is a great DE if you want to live in the terminal because UI sucks and takes a billion clicks to do anything. It's much easier to just type stuff to command-line.
"Gnome isn't more resource heavy than other environments from my experience", okay but that still doesn't change the fact that it is more resource heavy than kde, xfce, lxde, lxqt, and every window in existence, making it one of the most resource intensive setups on linux.
I don’t care what people use, but gnome just isn’t for me. There are so many settings that just aren’t easily accessible with a vanilla install. Meanwhile on kde plasma I can do my basic setup in 10 minutes. Gnome is just too bare bones and feels incomplete with important settings hard to access.
I used to LOVE when GNOME3 came out in 2011. I forgave it for total lack of features, as it was a bold attempt at a new workflow. As time went by, it became clear that the devs hate us tinkering with it and actively prevent it. GNOME (and elementaryOS, btw) devs are reminiscent of Apple in so far as telling the user "what to do" and "what to like". Such arrogance and inflexibility just rub me the wrong way. I love the unlimites customizability of KDE because I can make it do EXACTLY what I want from it. I've recently thought of trying Pop_os, but never hopped because I've remembered that I won't have any decent customizability because of GNOME.
First time viewer here (and Gnome fan also). Great video about the strengths and weaknesses of Gnome! You mentioned something in your video about Gnome being opinionated. That is exactly what it is! I think people complaining about feature removal still thinks that Gnome 3 is the evolution of Gnome 2. There's an other opinionated DE around but this one get praises over complaints, it's Pantheon.
As someone with a disability, I have cerebral palsy. Gnome is actually painful for me to use because it forces a keyboard and shortcuts workflow and doesn't off much to use it any other way. The interface is convoluted. I even tried mailing the gnome team and queried them as to wat could be done to improve it but I found them to be rude arrogant and unwilling to understand or accept that not everyone can use a desktop like they do. It was after that point I realised that it was true gnome Devs act like dictators. I wish that wasn't the case but it's the sad truth. It would be great if gnome Devs would work with the community better I think that would go a long way to improving relationships. That and also The leads Dev's need to stop posting about how users are the reason that gnome is always broken. They also need to stop saying things like extensions are bad for gnome then at the same time when a user requests a feature they're told to make or install an extension. Also look deeper at the functions of gnome. Look at how crippled files ( nautilus ) is. Again it is a convoluted navigation experience . While I think you did a great job being neutral. I do think you missed a few critical points.also look at application dashboard on KDE.
@@theotherhive I'm just saying no one starts using linux with the mindset of not being able to do what they want. Everything is meant to be customizeable to their needs. If it isnt then they likely dont use it
I mostly use it because I like the search and the GUI and UX of gnome and linux makes it easier to program and install software on. I do not care much about customizing. Gnome has a very well done design language that almost everything else is missing and you can only get that if you design your GUI with a specific purpose in mind . If you want icons on your desktop and do not like to use the search for everything then it isn't for you. I use a windows computer that way and with linux it is just better. There are obviously a lot of technical capable people in the community that want a very specific system and customize everything and that is fine. Often times the GUI of those systems is complete shit. With gnome you know how to use stuff because every button, switch, color and button is designed with the goal in mind to give the user a desk-topless easy to understand and navigate ui. With iPhones there is a lot of functionality missing that you could get with android, but if you use the ui the gestures are fluid and fit in well with the design themes of the apps and the overall systems. Everything looks like it belongs together and the ui elements are designed in a way that you instantly know what they can do.
Personally I love Gnome. I had a major mindshift circa 2005 when moving to OSX Tiger after being on windows my whole life prior to that. OSX introduced "spotlight" which as a super-fast indexed search, which i could access from a quick keyboard shortcut, to launch anything, app, file, folder, dictionary definition, web fallback, etc. They had far superior window-switching controls on the laptop (active corners, gestures, keyboard shortcuts) to windows at that time too. Essentially, these features worked together to drastically reduce or even eliminate mouse pointer find and click, sequentially, through say, the Windows start menu, that I had been used to. Fast forward many years and I have had a substantial amount of time on OSX, Linux Mint Cinnamon, Ubuntu and Pop OS Gnome, and a little bit of I3, XFCE and KDE Neon, Windows 7, 8.1, and 10. Ultimately, while I appreciate the _massive_ customization in KDE, GNOME workflow is basically perfect for me on a laptop, primarily keyboard-driven with just the right amount of trackpad usage to pick something specific out of a large stack (workspaces, workspace applications etc), with enough polish and customization to live in something beautiful without sacrificing the incredible efficiency of the keyboard driven workflow. Now, really... if you have been using the Start menu and sequential mouse clicking for 20 years and never opened your mind to other possibilities, I can understand why you might think that GNOME sucks. But the great irony is that such a perspective is like looking at the world through a pinhole, and there's a more efficient and beautiful way just outside the edge of your vision.
Tried GNOME out recently thanks to this video. I could dig the UX aspects of it, however it had issues with stuttering whenever I tried to resize certain windows like Files, as if it was having trouble rendering it. On my laptop, it glitches the fuck out. KDE doesn't have this on either. Once that's sorted out, I'll have to check it out again.
I tell people who just casually use computers to use gnome. It has a very simple straightforward workflow perfect for people who just want to browse the web and check email. KDE Plasma is the best all around DE but you have to tweak the awful default settings imo to get it perfect. I always end up going back to something very lightweight like i3 or openbox for the extreme amount of control, customization and minimal resources used but I really enjoyed KDE while I used it.
I personally really like XFCE, though XFCE lacks some things that i really like in plasma such as the night shade, microphone mute, unit conversion, file search in menu, etc. I'm just hoping that plasma 5.18 will finally bridge the gap for me (due to the kwin performance improvements, and by then Wayland probably will have more stability due to their current Wayland initiative), that said even though XFCE is still probably my overall favorite i still use plasma.
1) It wasn't the just the 'powerusers' who had problems with Gnome 3. Gnome 3 lead to the creation of Cinnamon, Unity, the comparative rise of the popularity of Xfce, forking Gnome 2 etc. Probably 2/3 of the users did not like it. 2) One important problem for me was the fullscreen launcher. Many years ago I decided it is probably not bad to have a fullscreen launcher as an option but there should be another way to launch applications. I don't think the start menu is ideal either btw.
I love Adwaita! It's a great choice for a default theme, Dark or Light! Also, don't neglect your choices of fonts. For mono, I recommend Latin Modern Mono. It has the aesthetics of a proportional font. Choose any font that you like for the others. You'll need to install GNOME Tweaks in order to change the font. Also, you will likely have to search the Internet for the Latin Modern Mono font. I downloaded it for my old Fedora 20 work computer from an Internet site. At home, I installed it from an old font disk that I purchased many years ago. I was cleaning out old computer stuff when I found the disk; it had a bunch of nice fonts on it, and Latin Modern Mono was one of them. Edit: By the way, I run Fedora 30 at home presently.
I have been away from gnome some time for trying the ditch of tiling (i3). I must say I’m impressed what you get out of the box of stock gnome. Learn the basic key bindings and you have a really good power environment with tiling capabilities that looks really good.
Are you still on i3? I come from years of XFCE use, but switched to i3 on my notebook for a more keyboard-centric workflow (touchpad's a poor mouse replacement). While i3 is snappy and I quickly got used to the keybindings I set up, I found it tedious to set up all the small conveniences like status-bar (i3blocks), launcher (rofi), notifications (dunst), locker (i3lock; also tied to systemd power events), etc. While I have extensive dotfiles to maintain all this customization, I nonetheless worry that this is too time consuming to maintain and will break again in the future. I don't enjoy tinkering for the sake of it, yet wish to be able to fix daily usability nuisances that an opinionated DE might carry. I'm really playing with the thought for approaching Gnome 3 with a keyboard-centric workflow in mind. A "just works" solution that stays modern, so I can focus on work instead of the tools. But I also have a few particular concerns around CPU (and for notebook: power) consumption and maintainability via dotfiles (i.e. quick _reproduction_ of my setup on new machines).
Nope gnome still is not optimized for touch devices. It also has keyboard shortcuts and it's a good thing to use the screen for more important stuff. The only downside I see is its apps, their development progress is so slow and they usually lack some features.
About removing tray icons, I think the philosophy of Gnome is that you shouldn't run anything in background/minimized (that is why there is no minimize button or function (there is hide with 'Super+H' key but note how it's called "hide" and not "minimize". Your not supposed to use it to minimize.). Instead of minimizing and having apps in the background you are supposed to run everything in the foreground in different virtual desktops and you are really supposed to run 1-2 apps/windows max on a single desktop. I used to have Skype and TS3 and some other apps on the taskbar running in other desktop environments but now I just put Skype and TS3 on the first virtual desktop and move to another virtual desktop. And if someone sends you a message through Skype/Discord/etc. the app is supposed to send notification in Gnome.
GNOME is my favorite de because of the application switcher. Just hit the windows key and you can see all of your open programs, plus a dock, and a desktop switcher. I personally use Zorin OS with the Pop! OS shell and theme.
The biggest issue with it is that they completely changed the UI from GNOME 2 to GNOME 3. People weren't expecting what is basically a different desktop environment. GNOME 3 on its own is fine, it's the fact that they made the huge change that caused an uproar.
I personally do not like GNOME, that does not mean I do not appreciate the work that has been done for this desktop environment. Sometimes they will eventually create a function that can work on other desktop environments, too. I am using Plasma from KDE, because I love to customize my desktop environment in a way it fits with my personal tastes.
3:20 But it is, mostly. It looks very similar to Android, the "app" grid shows it all. Gnome doesn't look like a real desktop, that's why people keep saying if you own a tablet better use Gnome than anything else... or Windows 8.1, just kidding. 3:36 Gnome keeps removing features, it's not something related only to the classic Gnome (Gnome 2), but actual Gnome 3. The desktop icons was a good example. Now, they have switched all this complexity to an alpha extension, some distros still maintain the old Nautilus to make the desktop usable. Nautilus is so simple that in configurations/settings that is a pain in the ass using it, especially if you are used to Nemo (how Nautilus should have been) or Dolphin. 4:32 Yes, Gnome is resource intensive (and heavy). Gnome is one of the heaviest desktop enviroments along with Jade, Budgie and Cinnamon. Cache makes it become more heavy compared to the way other desktops manage cache. Gnome under Wayland is more resource heavy than it's on X. 5:49 Animations are clunky anyway, better disable them. They are very laggy as well, even on a machine with good specs. 6:30 Memory leaks are not something related only to Gnome. Cinnamon suffers from the same thing, maybe because it's a Gnome fork? Maybe because it still depends on Gnome? Maybe because it develops slowly and the leaks are still there? We don't know exactly. Cinnamon can be as resource intensive as Gnome. I have tested both and they are pretty close. 9:24 That's something I really hate about Gnome... Needing third-party extensions to enable something that is basic and should have been implemented to their settings. For example, the Gnome Tweaks settings are so basic, why not implement it to the system? The fact you need third-party tools (Gnome Tweaks, dconf) and third-party extensions for changing basic settings is a total mess or worse (terminal and css). Also, extensions often break, especially when Gnome version updates and the extension you are using continues in the old version... Not all extensions receives intense updates, so you are stuck to the devs wills to update or you lose functionality. 11:36 Better give the user the options than removing all of them because it looks "bloated", "clunky", "dense" or "complex". The excuse of the lazy. You can say KDE Plasma looks very confuse and messed up, but at least it gives you options that Gnome doesn't and force you to use the damn extensions as a magical way of solving problems (they don't solve, they bring new problems). Arguing Gnome should be used with the keyboard, then I better use a WM if that's the case. 15:04 If you want a keyboard-centric system, then use a WM than a slow heavy clunky glitchy desktop environment. People are used to the way macOS and Windows are. People consider Gnome as the best for tablets because of the way it looks, the aesthetics, the big buttons and apps (good for the fingers, so tablets), it doesn't mean Gnome is the only one for tablets, but one of the best options in the Linux world. 16:30 Adwaita is very dated, even the newer version is ugly (personally by my tastes). Not as ugly as eOS icon theme and the Plasma icon theme. They all need to be improved.
Knowing how Gnome is extremely understaffed, that seems like the most sensible way: blogs.gnome.org/otte/2012/07/27/staring-into-the-abyss/ Guess it's good that they can afford removing a feature because they don't have the time/people to maintain it. I mean, on Windows people would get really mad about that, good thing it didn't hap... oh wait
@@WolfgangsChannel let's see how they spend that million dollar donation ;) also, maybe they can ask the elementary os guys to see how they manage. honestly, all I know is I was on ubuntu since 2007 until around 2011-2012 and it's 2019 now, I'm not a twenty-some-year-old anymore, I'll be closer to 40 than 30 any day now. And how far has gnome shell moved in that time? Still working out bugs and performance issues. I mean most of the software (eg nautilus) was feature complete decades ago. so alright, cool, things are getting fixed, but remember that we were supposed to live with this shit for the past decade. I'm glad I spent that time using a macbook instead, at least now I have an insight in what a usable, well thought out desktop experience is all about. gnome tries to copy macos in so many ways, but it's just so terrible at it.
Gnome would be good if they actually supported a stable extension API. Sure, the Gnome workflow has great solutions for 75% of everything and it's worth learning the gnome way, but it simply doesn't support a bunch of edge cases, and the combination of fixes for those edge cases is what makes a usable computer. For example, every time I run Gnome I run into the problem of having an audio device switcher widget / menu. There's an extension for the current version that solves it about 75% of the time, but it's never been the same one twice. Basically, the Gnome devs are optimizing for their time at the cost of wasting a ton of everyone else's time - and users and extension devs are both pretty critical for the health of a DE.
I personally use it with only a few extensions, desktop icons, dash to dock, and kstatus, the only reason is i like to be able to click once to get to the program i want
Really fair and honest review. Happy to be upfront here, I don't use Gnome, I prefer KDE and Cinnamon, and I'm a desktop user not a tablet/laptop user. For me, though, the biggest thing is that I'm a mouse, point and click type of person... and I don't really 'want' to change. I also like customizing my desktop (to a degree) and Gnome is the most difficult DE for that. I actually don't mind the look and feel of Gnome and I can mostly set Gnome up to suit my workflow style... it's just more work so I don't bother. Unless you're used to using keyboard shortcuts, I probably wouldn't recommend Gnome to new users... unless they really 'wanted' to learn a new workflow. Thanks, Wolfgang, a really great review... loved that you took the 'emotion' out of it :)
GNOME is stable and extendable, with base functionality that focus on what most users would be happy with. The design is great in my opinion, and miles ahead of KDE and others. 3.32 also brought better performance, and 3.34 should be even better. This makes GNOME a no-brainer, at least for me.
It looks good, and 3.32 made it finally use less memory than Windows 10, but as I have said before... 1. I am left handed, so I have to either let go of the mouse to use the super key, or work in a very uncomfortable position all the time. Without Dash-To-Dock Gnome 3 is in effect deliberately designed to be unusable by me. And also 2. The philosophy of the Gnome design team to lock in all choices and deliberately trying to change out apps for other apps is, I feel, simply anti-Linux. It's an Apple mindset: "How DARE you wanting to use a superior terminal app instead of our POS"?
I think this is an Outstanding Video, you covered everything very well, and in detail, basically my opinion on the subject is kinda like, when I buy a Car, I don't go rip out the Dash Board and the seats, I just use it the way it is. The same is the way with my Desk Top environment. I will want to customize a few things, but as long as I can make it look cool, like the Dark Themes, I am ok. :)
i stopped using desktop icons when i began to switch between laptop only and laptop+external monitor setup often, and i'm glad i did. hitting the meta key and searching for the apps is just so much faster and more elegant.
Whenever I use KDE I miss GNOME and whenever I use GNOME I miss KDE.
That about sums it up.
Install both DE's on the same OS....and switch as you see fit...done. I see no reason to bash either....I prefer Gnome on notebooks for how its flow works with s single screen BUT...at home an my 3 screen setup....KDE.
whenever I use rat poison I miss my will to live
I have been a Linux user since last 3 years and used GNOME most of the time. Recently gave KDE a try and now every other DE seems dull and useless to me.
Rahit Karmakar that’s how I feel. Went from gnome to xfce and liked it then went from xfce to kde plasma and my mind was blown.
Gnome really killed my DE hopping and WM hopping. I used to use KDE plasma but I was doing more customizing rather then doing the job. I love vanilla gnome for its simplicity and usability.
I couldn’t care less about what DE or WM someone uses. Linux is all about CHOICE, and if GNOME is what someone chooses then more power to them. It’s none of my business. 🤷♂️
@eddmnd I guess in that case the choice is to either not use gnome (an entirely valid choice thankfully on Linux - consider how this is completely impossible in Windows)
OR to modify the code, since it is completely available and allowed
@eddmnd How come you want something you want but also don't want?
@@user-23590 It all comes down to "Do One Thing And Do It Well." imo. If that's done right, there's no conflicting want for something since you can pick the parts you want and don't want. It's only when something does more than one thing that there's an issue. Of course that line is blurry with a DE
@@robs6394 But there are limits to that philosophy, i mean the Linux kernel itself isn't like that.
Heck definition of "one thing" is vague.
My point is, if he wanted something specific and advanced things like OpenRC and syslog-ng, i don't think he doesn't know what DE or GNOME DOs and DONTs, bad example.
Okay... but can we deny marriage for people who use GNOME as their Linux DE of choice?
Gnome has come a long way, but I'm still happy with XFCE or LXQT.
I agree with you in some parts as yeah xfce and LXQT are good for certain things but gnome if you looks at it from regular day to day thing is just less annoying if you want to install an os and just don't want to modify and it just works gnome is the guy. Unless you install an os and then it as you would you like to have default apps on the bar in Xfce and then you got to make more time to customize it or you have graphic limitations on LXQT but awesome for lower spec hardware so it depends on what people are using it for, thus the reason open source is growing and others are stagnant!!
@@charlesdean03 Gnome doesn't even offer a minimize button or desktop icons how on earth is that friendly to 80% of the market?
@@wii166 Mr gamer go on your settings - then window titlebar then turn on minimize button... This proves your intellect is equal to an ant... People like you make real Linux guys like us look bad!! Looking at you people think all Linus people are like you who open their mouth before thinking!!
Learn first then start complaining!! Why it's not turned on by default cause as administrators we use alt+tab and so called users like you don't even understand why it was done!!!
Have a good life in your bubble land!!
@@wii166 Super + H
That feeling when you realize Gnome changed 8 years ago, and you are still calling it "the new Gnome UI" 🤐 Feeling old...
is that because you ignored it completely and went to cinnamon or mate?
Has it been 8 years... god
Don't try stock gnome! You'll get stock-gnome syndrome!
(just kidding)
I used Ubuntu with GNOME as a linux beginner and I think I have that stock-gnome syndrome lol
The stock gnome is really good.
(I'm just sick)
@@abhrasrepository1173 ubuntus gnome is not stock gnome its extremly customized compared to stock gnome I belive fedora uses a gnome version pretty close to stock
Whenever I think about installing GNOME or KDE, I think again and stick with XFCE.
Hugo L kde is not so bad. I switched recently from xfce to kde plasma.
absolutely
but KDE looks and feels so nice, though I wish it were bit as resource heavy
I want to give i3 a go
Plasma is great. XFCE is the best overall, imo, but Plasma actually works more consistently for me with things like multi-monitor setups. If you strip out a lot of the animations and unnecessary services, you can run it pretty darn lean too. Not quite XFCE, but not that far off either.
When the desktop icons were abolished, I missed them for about a week. By now, I can't stand them.
Ye ancient desktop cluttering is so stupid i got rid of that years ago. whenever i get to a desk of a computer that is "broken" and i see full windows desktop full of folders i know where the problems lie^^
I can't stand either desktop icons (except I do like having a dock to switch between apps rather than a taskbar) or Gnome. You can hit the Super key and search for apps to launch in any DE.
Desktop icons don't make sense considering how people manage their windows nowadays. A lot of workflows imply running 2-3 applications in fullscreen or split side-by-side (web browsing, programming, word processing, etc.). So you basically never see your desktop, it's always obstructed by windows. In this case it makes more sense to have a full screen application launcher like Gnome does since it pretty much does the same thing as desktop (presents a list of shortcuts) but better (it also has search functionality, an Activities view and a workspace pager
@@WolfgangsChannel My point exactly 👍
@@praetorxyn Yeah, but GNOME is specifically designed for that kind of workflow. In XFCE, for instance (I have to use it at work, that's why I singe it out), unless you play around with it quite a lot, the superkey will open a puny window in the corner - when there's a whole screen it could use - as it does in GNOME 3+. To me, even a very few desktop icons seem messy, no matter where they are.
In the end it's all down to personal preference, though.
My real issue is with people complaining about "bloat" in GNOME while using KDE. Reason? The two of them are pretty much equivalent in terms of resources used. And even when I used Cinnamon and Mate on my computers, I didn't notice any real difference in performance.
Customisability? Well, yeah, some DEs allow for more of that. But if it meets, even anticipates, all your needs OOTB, why bother?
I am a GNOME fanboy, yeah. Two or three extensions (Dash-to-Dock, Removable Drives, GSConnect), and I've got exactly the DE I want. Love it!
tip: turn off the places you don't need to search, from gnome settings, the search will become faster.
>don't use search, it will be faster
yeah okay kid
Better tip : dump GNOME.
yeah... dont have a jack of all trades search... sounds about right
Gnome has caused me some headache, but its simplicity saved me a lot of headache.
One thing I love is the adwaita theme. Just unifies the system with code editor themes and looks pretty and modern.
which you can get bin xfce
I hate Adwaita. UI elements seem really thick and their icons are not to my taste. But to each their own.
in my opinion ubuntu's recent version of the yaru theme is the best thing I've seen in a long time,but i also recommend you checkout layan theme
What kind of headache it has caused? I wanted to know more the cons of using gnome C:
@@birchtree5884 They really polished it in the latest releases, the icons used to look pretty outdated. To me default gnome is one of the best looking DEs out there, but that's kinda subjective. The huge header bars still rub me the wrong way though.
Moved from GNOME 3 to KDE Plasma. Never look back
@@mykytadiachyna1608 what's wrong with you lol
@@mykytadiachyna1608 can you just point some of the aspects that made you think like that?
It’s so amazing that the Linux/unix community has so many choices and just feels amazing, a proud bspwm/dwm user
@@b0ba_884 That's the beauty of using linux. We can choose whatever we want then customize it as our needs. Nothing's perfect for everyone, just choose something suits you best and go/deal with it.
My hubby left KDE when it turned to plasma 5. He says they lost too much functionality, so he joined me on Mate, which is the second most customizable DE around.
Great video! I don't hate Gnome. But there are somethings which I don't like about Gnome.
1) Very thick title bars/multiple title bars. When I'm opening Firefox, I'll have 1 Gnome bar, 1 firefox title bar and 1 Firefox tab bar. This gives the impression that 1.5 inch of the screen is basically wasted. Also, the title bars in gnome is quite thick by default. I changed it by using Dash to Panel extension
2) The floating side panel thing - I don't like it poking out as it's distracting. The goal of a DE is to be practically invisible but yet allow him to focus on his work.
3) The activities tab - When I press it, there is too much motion and change in the screen. I rather have simple static previewable windows in the bottom. However, Gnome's Alt-tab is fine. I changed it by using the Arc menu extension.
Other than these gripes, I have no problems with Gnome which make it "unusable". There are plenty of keyboard shortcuts for power-users. It's snappy.
PS : I don't use Gnome very often. I use i3 :P
It's possible to disable the titlebar in firefox(click on Customize in the firefox menu, the option to disable the titlebar is on the bottom left of the window)
@@bernhardgebetsberger1842 And use a theme with thinner titlebars, the titlebar is not hardcoded
You can remove the title bar in Firefox, and with the right userchrome.css file, it looks consistent with the rest of the Gnome applications, which don't tend to take up much space if they can help it.
What keeps bringing me back to gnome is the keyboard shortcuts, workspaces, and mostly the way it LOOKS. Once you theme it how you want it, it looks and feels great! Unlike KDE and XFCE for me, that never look and feel right to me even after months of tweaking. Still, I like Cinnamon the best. But sadly Gnome and Cinnamon are the only DEs that dont make me feel like using the computer is Chinese Water Torture. Constant, subtle annoyances that end up making me feel like losing my mind.
HAHAHAHA Man I love your video! I came back to Linux after almost 8 years and that is exactly what happened when trying different distros and DE. At some point I installed Ubuntu and spent 3 DAYS installing extensions, customizing them... and still some things were amiss or at the end it was awesome as I would like but the animations were awful so I turned them off... then I thought on the 4th day when testing Mandriva with KDE "You know what?! Screw Ubuntu with Gnome" and formated the partition, installed Mint with Cinnamon and in 1 hour I did the same I already did in 3 work days of Gnome 3 to make it work like that.
If you ask me Manjaro with Gnome3 come with almost all the important extensions, so you can customize them out the box and feels wayyy better and natural. The fun fact is... why keep beating a dead horse? Why keep doing something one way when most people will go for changing it ASAP? Gnome3 should come by default with at least some options/extensions and try to have them in mind when updating.
gnome3 should not be a default of any distro - it should be MATE. mate-desktop.org/
Respect to the Zorin devs for making it usable! I'll stick with KDE though. It's exactly what I want from a DE.
That's the way - respect all around paired with "this is what works best for me, personally, and if we need a discussion then let it be constructive."
From my end, the same mutatis mutandis.
The Zorin devs did a pretty good job with their GNOME customization. For me, the only downside that KDE has is that it dosen't feature dynamic workspaces.
It will be much better to learn to drive the car. Or keep the wagon. Putting horses back there to pull the car is the worst of both worlds, and is that's what Zorin does
Hey new Gnome users. Learn the keyboard shortcuts. It makes all the difference. 👍
And Shell Extensions. They're not praised enough
@@mariozenarju6461 Shell extensions were not meant to be used to the extend they are used, but the DE just doesn't cut it so they had to be implemented. How sane is it to load all the extensions on the main thread and give them access to the whole internals and during the main loop execution so that a single badly behaving extension can lock the whole DE?
Keyboard shortcuts should be discoverable, yet the GNOME apps do not even show all commands available in the UI (like Cut, Copy, and Paste which are some times omitted from the UI), so you first have a problem of knowing a command exist. Then, the shortcut should be written beside the command, so that it is easily discoverable, the user should not have to go to a dedicated window that list all the shortcuts and manually search though it and mechanically memorize it. And lastly, the UI should have a logical hierarchy for presenting command, not to throw all of them in a single menu and whatever does not fit there, just throw it away or hide it in the most obscure places (try bookmarking a folder in Nautilus without dragging and dropping, as a user might not know about that, and see if you can figure out where the command to do so is hidden; if the UI presented the user with a classic oh-so-hated menu bar, you'd find it in an instant).
@@vali20vali20vali20 For the Extensions issue: I search its page for solutions, and if there are none, just find an alternative that works. And since I'm using an LTS DE, there's no fear of the extension suddenly "breaking" Gnome. And for the part with nitpicks: I've never seen a person turning so many obvious design choices into flaws. Gnome's just meant to work that way, and if you don't like it, then it's not for you. For example, you could say how KDE is oversaturated and bloated with too many choices in customisation, a first time user will definitely find a way to break it at least twice in the first day. Doesn't that sound a bit biased? There's a reason you have a choice with Linux
Valentin Radu I only use Vanilla Gnome. Not Ubuntu Gnome. No extensions or tweaks. Just stock Gnome. It’s the most comfortable and intuitive desktop environment I’ve used since the original BeOS or Macintosh System 6.
Ironically, I like Gnome precisely because it abandons the traditional desktop paradigm. No start menu? Good. No desktop icons? Good. (Although one may choose these options if desired.) The keyboard shortcuts are the easiest I’ve ever learned. Easier than i3. Easier than emacs. Easier than macOS. Gnome shortcuts are a dream. Stupidly simple and intuitive. Effortless efficiency.
I understand that Gnome is polarizing and that many Linux users don’t like it. I used to hate Gnome with a burning passion, so I understand. Yet now it’s my favorite desktop environment. It has room to improve, but I enjoy using it every day.
I’m not suggesting that you or anyone should like Gnome, but remember that there are plenty of Gnome users who love Gnome for precisely the reasons that other people hate it.
If you don’t mind, what desktop environment do you prefer? No judgment, since people should use whatever works for them. But I’m quite curious.
Gnome is a kind of okay DE, but when I switched from GDM+Gnome to LightDM+Xfce it felt so much lighter and faster. Definitely noticable.
Despite the improvements to it, it's still bloated compared to XFCE
The host is missing a really important point about how Gnome changed when he says "Gnome isn't meant to be used like that". A lot of the users who were using Gnome back when Gnome shell first dropped, had been using Gnome since it's first iteration. What we wanted from Gnome were bug fixes. We got a whole new UI instead. Which wasn't even targeted at the core user base. It was very clearly targeted at tablet users and still is. So Gnome devs burned their core users and just cast them aside. That's always going to leave a bad taste.
Gnome devs then made that situation worse by deliberately breaking compatibility with third party themes. Even with minor updates themes used to break. And there was no good reason for it. And as far as I can remember. Third party extensions were never really meant to be a thing either.
Nautilus used to be one of the most powerful file managers that could be found on a Linux desktop. Now it's been gutted to the point where it can't even create a text file without the user taking the time to create a template first. For a text file. Gnome devs think this is an amazingly powerful feature.
Do you want to deploy a desktop background system-wide for all users? In the old days you could just drop that wallpaper in /usr/share/backgrounds and it'd be there for all to use. Now you need to edit 2 XML config files before Gnome will even see the thing.
Not only that, but the Nvidia Prime On-demand feature seems to only work in gnome-shell for some reason, and I can't get it to work in Mate.
I find GNOME absolutely horrendous to use because it feels like it's meant for touchscreen instead of mouse and keyboard just like the disastrous windows 8
"Of course when you add that many extensions to a working system its bound to break"
I can count the number of extensions that I've had break on me with one shop teachers hand. Things like dash to dock or dash to panel have been very stable for me for several years.
Some people add 14-20 extensions because for them it's the absolute minimum to make Gnome "usable" (a.k.a. like KDE). And then when one breaks they go "omg gnome is sooooo unstable and laggy"
Hi there, I'm not a regular GNOME user personally but I also tried it and understand your points of view, so I'd like to answer some of your arguments.
- On GNOME being "resource-heavy": I agree with you that this is past history and I also find GNOME to be perfectly acceptable on that side nowadays. However, I wouldn't place it on the "light" side either, it still rather heavy compared to other DEs. The fact that you can disable animations using an extension shouldn't be an argument, as it just shouldn't be necessary in the first place.
- On features and customization: what I would say is this is a design choice that was made and you're just not forced to use it if you don't like that, that's the beauty of Linux. However, I don't personally think any reason could forgive the fact of removing crucial elements like tray icons by default - and the fact that you can download some obscure extension to do that job doesn't fix the problem: the desktop will seem unusable for a new user who depends on tray icons and don't know about extensions.
- On general design: I agree that having a tablet-ish interface isn't an actual problem. However, I think that "GNOME IS KEYBOARD CENTRIC" is a plain LIE used to answer all UI problems: I can have the exact same shortcuts on any other DE, most of the time out of the box, and WITH the ability to change them if I want. People should just stop using this argument.
- On themes: the reason most themes doesn't feel right is that Adwaita being baked into GTK, the themes need to overwrite ALL of the properties set by this very messy and bloated theme.
To conclude, I would say that GNOME is definitely not for everyone, as you already said. While the full-screen UI and very limited customization are design decisions that I think should be respected, I still struggle to find any relevant reasons to use GNOME daily. I hope this answer was helpful, bye !
Let me guess, you have never learnt the Gnome shortcuts. Have you?
@@MrDaskon Let me guess, you never wanted to admit all modern desktops have the exact same shortcuts. Did you?
More seriously, I want to be fair and I'll give it another try. But I have my custom shortcuts set up here and for no reason I would want to drop them ;)
In reality (in the most technical terms), the best desktop environment is the one you want/need to use. Whatever serves your purposes and meets your needs (as the end user, organization, administrator, etc) is the best tool for the job. There are also different people who like a variety of different things and are comfortable with different ways of doing things. It is great to have options.
GNOME: Making "You're using it wrong"TM open source.
You are though. It's like trying to hammer a nail with pliers. If that's what you want to do, just use a hammer :)
Expecting every tool in a shed to be a hammer is wrong though
This is why I don't use Gnome, it doesn't fit my workflow AND it assumes I'm not qualified to modify it so that it does. I'd really like to eliminate most Gnome and GTK apps from my system, because I hate the mindset that the Gnome project has abput its users. It's the same philosophy as Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook, etc., just provided with the source code. This awful idea of "we the developers of software know the best way to make software usable for you, dear user." B. S. I've been programming for nearly 10 years now, and I won't take such disrespect from the code I use. So I don't, because of the freedom of open source, even the freedom to be philosophically closed.
@@silentgameplays Yes. It's also heavy, hideous and ultimately redundant. There is no point to it unless you have a touch screen device.
@@silentgameplays LOL you can customize Gnome. You need to know how to code instead of editing config files.
@@silentgameplays It sounds like the problem lies with not having any software development skills. I don't get it - people claim to love Unix operating systems but they don't have the discipline to learn computer science fundamentals.
Here are my two cents on Gnome:
Firsly, the start menu/launchpad thing. I don't see how being fullscreen gives it more functionality. Ironically the windows start menu has shown that you don't need a fullscreen menu to include programs, files and web search results. Besides not needing it to be this big, it is simply uncomfortable having all the icons so far apart (most FPS players have fairly low mouse sensitivity, at least csgo players), so that results in way bigger movements to achieve something that is easier in other DEs.
Secondly, other desktop environments also serve its purpose well without a lot of customization (I personally use mostly stock KDE with only minor theming and the start menu closer to that of older Windows versions), but at least those are customizable. Gnome seems like it's hacked together and almost falling apart with the little customizability it has to offer. (and requiring javascript extensions)
And last but not least, I personally believe a DE should be complete with and without keyboard shortcuts. I'm a guy who uses relatively few shortcuts, but with many major and beginner distros using Gnome by default newcomers who are used to Windows (and therefore probably fewer shortcuts) will most likely be struggling when their system is not mouse-oriented.
ps: blah blah not native english speaker, hopefully my point gets across. 100% subjective though, I won't judge gnome users
the thing is when you press windows and start typing it would be better if it would be in the middle of your screen, so that you can see what you type without tiliting your head or moving your eyes. When you press the windows key and type you aren't looking at anything but what you are tying, so it makes sense to prominently display it and give more search results and infos about those. You switch, pin and close windows with shortcuts and can keep your hands on your keyboard. If you are used to shortcuts gnome is great. You can keep your hands on your keyboard most of the time and can stare blankly in the middle of the screen to use it and then keep staring in the endless void of black pixels.
@Drakon Daedalus That's actually kinda possible in KDE. It has a seperate menu to launch apps by pressing alt+spacebar. That opens a searchbar in the top middle of your screen which functions almost the same as your start menu search.
I don't know why most platforms abandoned the desktop metaphor. It was so productive and easy to learn. Gnome 2 was great.
Yeah Gnome 2.6 was mildly tolerable. I had a machine I just left it on. I didn't really use that machine so it was OK.
After using Xfce I can't really go back to gnome(Gnome somehow feels restrictive even after using tweak tools).
Yeah it's the most modular de in linux
unfortunately we receive also what Gnome think is good for us. With GTK3+ in the latest XFCE version you may noticed some bad changes. Like that:
gtk.10911.n7.nabble.com/How-to-get-a-quot-traditional-quot-file-chooser-td92530.html#message92557
The : "find-as-you-type" function at the FileDialog is gone. Now you have an useless searching function, because it works better on tablets.
even so there is some restistance - aur.archlinux.org/packages/gtk3-typeahead/ -
but I think sooner or later they will destroy the complete gnome/GTK GUI for desktop users.
Modern gnome feels slow. I can forgive a lot of other things, but I absolutely hate when GUI is anything less than lightning fast.
Tweaks lets you disable animations. There's also an extension that allows you to make them faster.
without animations it's even more noticeable how laggy it is
All I'm going to say is thank goodness for Mate.
I just can't switch away from gnome. Every time I use a other DE I miss the finish, simplicity en consistentie. I'm currently using Zorin OS( About a weak before that Pop OS also love that os) and love it, I just changed the start menu to the gnome overview.
Cinnamon tried to turn Gnome 3 into Gnome 2, but whenever I use it, I think, "Where's the rest of it?" It's almost like the DE us hiding some customization from me, but that's really all there is.
@@charliekahn4205 Mate is the main continuation of Gnome 2.
@@folksurvival and I use it most of the time. But it's by no means ideal.
@@charliekahn4205 Cinnamon is almost perfect though imo.
I absolutely love Gnome's workflow with only one single exception. I find myself needing to install Dash to Dock (with intelligent autohide) every time. Gnome has never felt right to me without it, especially on newer 40+ releases. By default, Gnome makes you use the hot corner to pull up Activities, then you have to travel all the way to the bottom of the screen for the dock/applications list, which is just a bit cumbersome if I just want to see a quick list of running applications or my favorites. Dash to Dock (even with autohide) is a lifesaver for me and means much less mouse travel (and a less overwhelming UI) if I just need something simple.
All in all, I greatly appreciate Gnome's dedication to modern technology and progressive/forward-thinking concepts. They brought A LOT of innovation to the Linux desktop, and I find that I like it even better than Mac OS (once I have my Dash to Dock tweak of course). It's also the only desktop environment I've ever tried that had truly 100% support for Wayland and 4K displays out of the box.
tbh gnome is quite alien to me , im sticking with xfce here . if i have to change my de , maybe i will go for kde or window manager instead where i can customize to make my workflow as efficient as possible while keeping resources aplenty .
but until there is an absolute necessity for me to step away from xfce , i will stick to the mouse 4.14 .
That's the great thing about XFCE and Plasma, they wont change things radically on you, and they wont force decisions on you like gnome would. That is my number one reason why i like XFCE and Plasma more than Gnome. I don't want the developers deciding i don't like something, i want to decide that myself and have a choice to continue using my desktop that way without using shoddy extensions that slow down the system and break between desktop updates.
Mate, LXQT, KDE LiquidShell, or Lumina aren't bad choices either imo.
I used to use Gnome, I do like the environment. I was curious about tiling WMs so I tried i3, I love it and prefer the workflow and will probably not go back.
i3-gaps is beautiful xD, I love it, I was getting used to Gnome but then went in i3 and fell in love xD
Last Plasma KDE: run fast and use low ram, web browsers can show thumbnails in upload and save dialogs, is simply the best desktop actually.
Plasma is my jam
I prefer KDE too, but we're on a religious topic here. There are probably some people who actually *like* GNOME. I see some of them here. To each their own.
... unless you are a GNOME kind of person ;-). KDE and GNOME are roughly equivalent in resource use, depending on the distros and precise settings. As for usability etc, it's no more nor less than personal preferences. In my case, I'm 100% GNOME, but once more, that's personal preference.
@@8a41jt Me, for instance. I just adore GNOME. While I rather share your point of view (not a rational and universal question), I do object to the adjective "religious". Is preferring lager over ale or stout over IPA a religious question? Neither is preferring one DE over another.
@@joschafinger126 Apologies, then. The word "religious" wasn't meant to have any other connotation than an unshakable faith in one's preferences. *I have to admit I just don't like GNOME3 (yet).* The Foundation's claims of "efficient workflow" and "workflow of the future" are no more than opinions, and as implemented, aren't as intuitive as the Foundation touts ... at least to me. When I spend more time _looking_ for expected controls than _using them,_ I've got a problem. And I see many of my professional colleagues having the same and similar issues. Sure, customization is possible, but documentation about how to do so is sparse. This generation of GDMs has a bit more to evolve, I suppose we'll see what the next generation delivers. At least the GDMs for Linux are evolving at all, which is good news -- methinks -- for the entire user community.
A while ago it suddenly dawned on me that almost all the really major distros (Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, ...) were using GNOME as their default desktop. I thought there had to be a reason behind that and decided to really give it a shot. And lo and behold, after watching a few videos about the intended workflow (keyboard shortcuts, workspaces, etc.) I began to see GNOME in a new light. It really is quite a usable and comfortable desktop. Yes, it demands more RAM than say, XFCE, but really, which PC from within the last ten years will struggle with that? That said, I also love minimal and resource-friendly desktops such as Openbox, IceWM, etc. Both approaches have their merits.
Debian's most used version is MX-18 (Xfce), Ubuntu doesn't count as they switch desktops more often than Windows, and Fedora was forced on Gnome3 since it's mothership, RHEL, is the driving force behind it.
Look not at the industry leaders, as they don't have a foothold in the hobbyist's mom n dad realm but look at where it counts: MX, Mint, Manjaro (and other Arches). None of them won't even touch Gnome3 with a 10' pole. Why? Because they want to keep their users happy and help them becoming productive members of society.
@@orcaflotta7867 You realize that the distrowatch ratings are not real 'most used' ratings? They just measure clicks on their website. Debian is most certainly far, far more prevalent than MX-18 (which is a great distro, btw), and its default desktop is Gnome. So I'd assume it is in pretty widespread use. And when has Windows really changed its basic desktop metaphor? The only time I can remember might be Windows 8 with its weird touc/mouse-hybridization, but that's it.
@@ThePressurizer "You realize that the distrowatch ratings are not real 'most used' ratings?"
Yes. I never took DW's hit parade as a real indicator. But distros like Debian and Ubuntu aren't even in the race. They are used by corporations and shit and bear no resemblance to the real Linux base. I guess the amateur installation base is indeed pretty close to what we see in the DW charts.
"Debian is most certainly far, far more prevalent than MX-18 (which is a great distro, btw)"
No, it's not. Now that Deb10 is finally out, I'd almost rate that over MX.
"and its default desktop is Gnome."
That's why I said it's not a great distro. Good distros come with a whole plethora of DEs and WMs to make as many people happy as possible. That's one of Linux's biggest plus points: The freedom of choice.The time for one-trick ponies like MX is over.
"So I'd assume it is in pretty widespread use."
Not because of MX but because of RHEL and Ubuntu, whose poor corporate wage slaves have to use it because their bosses say so. And let's not forget the so-called power users with their penchant for keyboard shortcuts. Really abominable.
"And when has Windows really changed its basic desktop metaphor?"
Win 3.1 --> Win 95/98 --> XP --> Vista --> Win7 --> Win8 --> Win10. All big jumps for normal human beings. I remember we had to organize schoolings for all the secretaries, accountants and administrators.
In the end, if you really want Linux to enter the mass market - and that's what all you fanatics are talking about, you can't do it with a freakshow DE such as Gnome3 or any of the WMs. The human race is used to mouseclick operation since 40 years or so. And lately they even smear their fatty fingers across their screens. And you wanna get all those sloppy idots into keyboard operation? Really???
What's your point? You criticize Gnome 3 for being too unwieldy for new users but at the same time you call people who want Linux to enter the mass market fanatics. What exactly would be your suggestion?
Here's mine: I don't think Linux will or should enter the mass market for home users as a direct competitor to Windows. To appeal to your typical desktop user (not interested in tech maybe) you'd have to compromise a lot, and I think Windows shows where that leads. You'd have to take away a lot of choices and customization options to make installation and use as simple as possible and sooner or later you'd end up with an OS that installs stuff in the background and so on.
@@ThePressurizer
"You criticize Gnome 3 for being too unwieldy for new users"
No, not unwieldy, just too poorly conceptualized and executed. Not made for human beings = Bad DE.
"but at the same time you call people who want Linux to enter the mass market fanatics".
Yes.
"I don't think Linux will or should enter the mass market for home users as a direct competitor to Windows."
Neither do I. I'm feeling good and smug in my elite ivory tower.
Because it's not a gnoblin, not a gnelf.
Also, you've been gnomed.
"hey Google how do I kill myself"
Used GNOME for most of the time I'd known Linux, tried KDE a few weeks ago and can't really go back anymore. It might be a bit more buggy from time to time, but it more than makes up for it with the customization and utilities.
Imagine not using a tiling window manager
i use gnome on my laptop, i3 on desktops.
it's just more approachable for presentations and display management.
I like tiling window managers, but I only use them when Gnome isn’t viable.
"If you launch a lot of apps the animations become kind of clunky"
Bruh, on my laptop the animations were like that without any apps, only with GNOME itself.
Even on 3.34?
I keep hearing about speed being perceivably different in each of these options. Are people just using older hardware? Or is it something else?
Add RAM. With high RAM usage, GNOME is buttery-smooth.
Even with 3.38, but then again my laptop has a dual core Celeron + 2GB of ram
It's been over a year now jeez
It only got smooth until 3.36 on which the statement of the video is true, but I feel like when GNOME 40 gets in Manjaro it will be a step backwards.
When I made that comment I was in a 2011-ish laptop, so, yeah.
I'm on a kinda better one now, but don't even bother with GNOME anymore, XFCE and LXQt all the way.
i like gnome for being very approachable to newbies. i think it's much easier than stock KDE, and apps are more coherent in design.
in kde some settings are spread across multiple places, maybe it's a bit better now. it may feel restricted in its customizability and how they break extensions now and then, but it's imho perfect for people sticking to clean, stock experience who have little experience with computers.
😅😅😅 Who thinks windows is difficult???
Kde presents a UI more closer to windows. If you used windows you can easily use KDE.
@@sid__art_6614 i do. it's highly annoying to have constantly make sure your preferences stick. updates keep resetting your default browser and adding more and more telemetry nobody asked for.
that and those annoying popups. and the in os advertising.
KDE is like windows7 more or less, when windows UX was probably at its peak. from that point on, microsoft started thinking they know better what the user wants.
@@yoshi314 Trust me, I love KDE bcoz of so much customisations. Also, I hate KDE bcoz of so much customisations. 😅😅😅 Gnome helps me relax and just focus on my job, KDE on the other hand wastes my time in customisation. But now it's been 3 years I am on xmonad and it just works for me. Gnome and KDE both are bloated.
Also, I hate Ubuntu, I love Fedora for Gnome on the other hand for KDE i love Opensuse. Fedora gnome uses 1.2 gigs of my ram. Opensuse KDE uses just about 600mb of ram.
i think this is what I needed to hear for choosing gnome over KDE. I love KDE, I mean,you can do whatever you want with it but with all that options I just get overwhelmed
I'm a Kde user, but these are good points and many I'd never thought about.
simplistic approach. no barking at one side or the other for right or wrong or even taking side. i thoroughly enjoyed your take on this. and i love gnome; a lot. well done.
Great video! I really like your takes. You put everything together quite well. Good luck on your channel!
I've a friend who uses GNOME on Arch - he keeps whining about how GNOME shell rapidly climbs from 80MB to well over 1.2GB+ of RAM usage within just moments of him dragging some windows around on screen.
GNOME ain't lite, true. So, if your machine can't take it use something else or get a more powerful computer. In the realm of fully-fledged DEs, GNOME is simply at the upper end of normal in terms of resource needs. If you're a GNOME type it's worth it. If you're not, look for something better suited to your style.
And, of course, if you know how to reduce the weight of GNOME and can write the code, I bet folks over at the GNOME project would love to hear about it.
Ye this is very true, I'd recommend to have at least 16 gb of ram if u run gnome and want to do anything more than read email. Otherwise it's just too much effort to keep your resource usage in mind all the time.
Joscha Finger
If I had a penny for each time I heard "get a more powerful computer" as response to such criticism, I'd have a small fortune.
How about "make less wasteful software"?
@@joschafinger126 ah yes this brings back fun memories of vista
@@jojoposter Friends don't let friends use GNOME on Arch.
For me Gnome is the only DE for a long time now. Vanilla without any extensions, as you recommended. Hot corner (or what) is one of the best things anyone ever invented.
Excellent video, keep up the good work dude!
Thank you!
Thank you for your input Gnome dev. Dash is garbage on a desktop, without an extension using Gnome comfortably is impossible.
Because ItS mAdE fOr TaBLeTs?
@@WolfgangsChannel Because most Gnome users use mouse.
I also love hot corners. It just feels so satisfying to hit the edge of the screen with the mouse and get a popup.
I use gnome for the simple reason that is the default in the distributions I like. However, it has problems and denying it is not the way to improve. In my opnion the biggest gnome mistake is supposing users workflow rather than asking the users what they like (asking the old way, not collecting data).
Changing what DE or WM you use is trivial in Linux. You just install it and create a file called ~/.xinitrc and call what you want to use there. .xinitrc is also kind of your start up file for X too. If there's any programs you want to run every session you put them ahead of your DE or WM declaration line. You end those lines in an ampersand & This is what my .xinitrc file looks like:
# Window Maker default X session startup script
PATH="$PATH:/usr/local/bin"
# If you login from xdm, uncomment this to make error messages appear
# in the console window.
#
# tail -f "/home/pfred1"/.xsession-errors > /dev/console &
xset m 3/2 0 &
xdg-settings set default-web-browser chromium-browser.desktop
exec /home/pfred1/bin/wmmenu -m apps &
exec /home/pfred1/bin/wmclock -12 &
exec wmaker
Deepin might not be particularly resource efficient, but I love how it looks and that’s why I use it. I think a DE doesn’t need to be the fastest, most efficient ever to be a good DE. There’s other reasons why something can be nice.
On my main daily driver rig I've used GNOME2, then Unity, then Cinnamon, then GNOME3, then Budgie on Solus, then Plasma, then DeepinDE, then back to Plasma and now back to GNOME3. Every DE has pros and cons. I'll use GNOME or Plasma. I don't care. In either DE I usually create a hybrid Gnome/Plasma workflow anyway. I use GNOME with Dash to Panel (which is very well done these days and continuously developed) and in Plasma I enable hot-corners and use the full screen launcher. As of late (past 6 months) Gnome has been running very well on Wayland. I'm looking forward to the 3.34 release.
On lower powered machines I'll use XFCE because it is just so stable but I've noticed Plasma's memory usage at idle is getting pretty close to XFCE. Peppermint is pretty great.
On very low powered machines I'll just run LXQt (which can be a little buggy) or LXDE (which everyone is abandoning) I highly recommend Raspbian for old netbooks, Raspberry Pi's (obviously)
Great channel. Great content.
I never even thought about using Raspbian on my netbook.
I installed Lubuntu to semi-mirror my desktop (Ubuntu, but they dropped 32-bit in to the shitter)
But then I deleted it after realizing they've made some horrific changes and replaced Good Things with Bad Things for No Reason At All. Classic "let's change shit for no raisin!" move. WHY?!
Might try Raspbian out. I literally was considering stripping out the hardware and slapping a Pi in there anyway and 3D printing a new base plate to add extra space for stuff.
I'm a type of user that prefers to get bare minimum and customize it to the point of usability, rather than get a fully-functional DE and spend half a day disabling so many features. GNOME is especially bad because if you want to customize anything you have to install a plugin.
But ok, thanks to this video I understood why it's stock DE in most popular distros.
nowadays it takes me about 10-15 min to set up a new gnome machine.
- dash2dock
- a nice theme
and a long chain of dnf install commands, thats it.
Gnome is still imo my favourite for usage on laptops with touchpad or touchscreen.
In my experience, it's the "Power Users" who eventually like GNOME because it saves loads of time. That's because a power user loves to explore and see what the features are, and do not just dismiss the entire DE for being different than what they are used to. A good example is that you don't need a panel with your programs sorted into groups in GNOME anymore. You just hit the Super key, and start typing vaguely what you want, and GNOME serves it up to you immediately. That's much faster and less confusing than trying to remember that Blender is stored under "Graphics Applications" or wherever it's automatically sorted. That's right, hit Super key and start typing "Blender", and by the time you get to "ble" it's the only icon on the screen and you can just hit return to launch it. There's nothing simpler than that, and after using it, everything else seems like an overcomplicated frustrating waste of time. Sure, it's got icons, etc for touch-screen devices too, but I've never had to use the app drawer for anything. I've been using Gnome for years now, and it's still the least pain I've ever experienced in any OS (including Mac and Windows). It's not king of customisation, it's true. Go KDE if that's your bag. I left that behind when I stopped having time to pimp out my systems. GNOME does most of what I had to spend a day configuring in Compiz, and does it out of the box.
I use GNOME at work. It gets the job done - quite literally. I'm fast, things actually work, no problems.
Dude, you need more views. What a great video about a great but misunderstood DE.
Thanks! To be fair the fact that it's misunderstood partly gnome devs' fault.
Wolfgang's Channel, true and actually that’s what a lot of devs (hello, mr. Torvalds) in the Linux community do - whatever’s the opposite of “marketing”.
I heavily disagree with many of your points.
1. You've said alot of functionality was moved to extensions, but then said don't expect things to work between updates if you used extensions.
2. Taskbar icons for applications are mandatory. Some applications have that as their only ui presence and not having them makes those applications unusable, having that moved to an extension that "might break whenever" isn't acceptable.
3. A cut down settings menu isn't a plus, its a huge detriment. I hate having to look up console commands, config files, or extensions to change something that should be a checkbox in the settings menu. KDE has the right idea (although it could be more organized).
4. Awidata is space inefficient and therefore a terrible theme. Its acceptable as a default and doesn't look too bad but when its the only theme and everything has thick bars with generous padding it really wastes alot of usable space with no viable way to compact it besides getting a higher resolution monitor.
5. The issue with windows stealing focus from KRunner can be adjusted but changing the window focus stealing rules in the KDE settings. (I don't remember having this issue in the past though)
6. The new icon theme is inferior to the previous one, not that it couldn't have been further improved (that creepy cheese icon), but this is a backwards step, I dislike flat styled icons.
I originally got into linux because of 2 things, colored folders and compiz fusion. Stuff that makes my computer more enjoyable to use while also helping reduce the needed steps to complete a task are what I value. Most of what gnome seems to work towards is in conflict to that. Not that it's *terrible*, but I don't see myself ever using it over KDE.
Oh, right, i forgot. We all LOVE the default workflow of the DE, because why would you use anything outside of it, right? Who would even want something customized to their tastes? Where could i've heard that story? Oh, right! Apple! We all love that, right?
We are running linux. The whole all deal about it IS customization and modularity, and gnome is trying to make it monolith, that's where it goes very, very wrong, since it's as far from "unix way" as one can even hope to go. Not only that, but their whole attitude is just ducked to the core, how they think that what they do is not just the best, but "the right way", while not providing anything that could justify their approach or their attitude. GNOME as DE doesn't provide anything particularly interesting(i mean better touch comparability is not something you need on your average desktop), but they have lots of disadvantages.
However i like GNOMEs' approach on the library part, how gtk doesn't try to be a swiss army knife like QT does. They focus solely on the UI, they don't use dirty hacks like qmake, they don't try to make gtk commercial(which qt is clearly trying to do now) and that's how it should be done in my opinion. If it wasn't for their "way of thinking" GNOME would be my DE of choice.
I use Gnome with full customization, and adapta themed, and i love It!
You can customize anything. That is not the point. ^^ The number of hoops you have to go through makes the difference. :)
@@worldhello1234 in the video he suggests not to customize gnome and make it look like what you want, because it breaks and you'll be unhappy with it, I did customization and I am using my system without issues with updates and I am very happy with it, it was just a point of disagreement with the video, I think gnome customization is great and I would not like it to see it go, and the more people use it the better! The hoops you have to go trough to customize it are worth the satisfaction you get when you use a system you customized yourself :-)
@@worldhello1234 Try to customize Gnome without using the Gnome Tweaks Tool, you'll be throw to the terminal anyway because it lacks simple settings.
You can't change animations on gnome. I tried but nothing seemed to work.
If you have some idea on how to change animations and animation speed while opening /closing apps or minimizing then do let me know.
I am looking to apply magic lamp animation (mac style) for app animations in gnome desktop. I haven't found a way yet.
@@MASTERISHABH The best way is disabling them.
12:40 this is basically what Zorin OS does.
Coming from Windows, my first distro was Zorin, as it is marketed as a Windows-replacement.
Trying to use it like Windows is a nightmare. Desktop icons don't properly align, tray is constantly glitching, the bottom panel is very limited and clunky for a Windows panel, every time I switched keyboard input, it would freeze for a moment, and there were many other issues.
Since this was my first experience with Linux, I actually thought this was how Linux is in general: buggy, underdeveloped, a poor man's Windows. Soon enough I switched to Cinnamon and it was like a day/night difference. So I'm on Linux Mint now and am quite happy.
Now, for me going back to Windows wasn't an option, so I was willing to stick with Linux through all the difficulties, but others might be put off by something like this. Perhaps Zorin should stop trying to pass off Gnome for something it isn't. It's arguably doing a disservice to both Linux and Gnome, pushing Windows users away from Linux.
I don't hate Gnome but I don't like to use it. Mate and Cinnomon is my favorit
The biggest problem with GNOME and GTK for developer is that the documentation often sucks and is not available. Doing real stuff is very complicated. Write your own text widget and you know what i'm talking about. The CSS theming is still totally undocumented after 5 years and there are no tutorials. Just man pages that give detail but never concepts and bird view design descriptions.
I can't work without icons on the Desktop for easy transfer. That is why Mint Cinnamon is my distro of choice.
@Nik Brown It takes three clicks of the mouse to transfer a file via the desktop.
Yo, thank you for your videos! I just found you and I'm psyched to follow someone with your point of few, professionalism, and realism. Keep it up!
Wolfgang: That feature exist, just use an extantion.
Also Wolfgang: Don't install to many extantions, it will break with the next update.
Why the f should I use this DE?
You're free to use any DE you want 😁
If you keep it to very widely used extensions that are in active development you will probably be fine.
you need to get a spell check extension
@@errorsofmodernism9715 You need to get a capitalization and punctuation extension.
It is a great DE if you want to live in the terminal because UI sucks and takes a billion clicks to do anything. It's much easier to just type stuff to command-line.
"Gnome isn't more resource heavy than other environments from my experience", okay but that still doesn't change the fact that it is more resource heavy than kde, xfce, lxde, lxqt, and every window in existence, making it one of the most resource intensive setups on linux.
I don’t care what people use, but gnome just isn’t for me. There are so many settings that just aren’t easily accessible with a vanilla install. Meanwhile on kde plasma I can do my basic setup in 10 minutes.
Gnome is just too bare bones and feels incomplete with important settings hard to access.
I used to LOVE when GNOME3 came out in 2011. I forgave it for total lack of features, as it was a bold attempt at a new workflow. As time went by, it became clear that the devs hate us tinkering with it and actively prevent it. GNOME (and elementaryOS, btw) devs are reminiscent of Apple in so far as telling the user "what to do" and "what to like". Such arrogance and inflexibility just rub me the wrong way.
I love the unlimites customizability of KDE because I can make it do EXACTLY what I want from it.
I've recently thought of trying Pop_os, but never hopped because I've remembered that I won't have any decent customizability because of GNOME.
12:31 - How Offensive Security made its distro
First time viewer here (and Gnome fan also). Great video about the strengths and weaknesses of Gnome! You mentioned something in your video about Gnome being opinionated. That is exactly what it is! I think people complaining about feature removal still thinks that Gnome 3 is the evolution of Gnome 2. There's an other opinionated DE around but this one get praises over complaints, it's Pantheon.
Oh man, another awesome Linux RUclipsr!
As someone with a disability, I have cerebral palsy. Gnome is actually painful for me to use because it forces a keyboard and shortcuts workflow and doesn't off much to use it any other way. The interface is convoluted. I even tried mailing the gnome team and queried them as to wat could be done to improve it but I found them to be rude arrogant and unwilling to understand or accept that not everyone can use a desktop like they do. It was after that point I realised that it was true gnome Devs act like dictators. I wish that wasn't the case but it's the sad truth. It would be great if gnome Devs would work with the community better I think that would go a long way to improving relationships. That and also The leads Dev's need to stop posting about how users are the reason that gnome is always broken. They also need to stop saying things like extensions are bad for gnome then at the same time when a user requests a feature they're told to make or install an extension. Also look deeper at the functions of gnome. Look at how crippled files ( nautilus ) is. Again it is a convoluted navigation experience . While I think you did a great job being neutral. I do think you missed a few critical points.also look at application dashboard on KDE.
"not how youre supposed to use gnome" alright thats the nail in the coffin
software is designed with a purpose in mind.. saying that you should be able to use a music player as a photo viewer isn't gonna work
@@theotherhive thats a very Apple thing to say. Opposite of a linux thing to say
@@thelurkingpanda3605 i'm not really trying to represent any particular community, just make a point
@@theotherhive I'm just saying no one starts using linux with the mindset of not being able to do what they want. Everything is meant to be customizeable to their needs. If it isnt then they likely dont use it
I mostly use it because I like the search and the GUI and UX of gnome and linux makes it easier to program and install software on. I do not care much about customizing. Gnome has a very well done design language that almost everything else is missing and you can only get that if you design your GUI with a specific purpose in mind . If you want icons on your desktop and do not like to use the search for everything then it isn't for you. I use a windows computer that way and with linux it is just better. There are obviously a lot of technical capable people in the community that want a very specific system and customize everything and that is fine. Often times the GUI of those systems is complete shit. With gnome you know how to use stuff because every button, switch, color and button is designed with the goal in mind to give the user a desk-topless easy to understand and navigate ui. With iPhones there is a lot of functionality missing that you could get with android, but if you use the ui the gestures are fluid and fit in well with the design themes of the apps and the overall systems. Everything looks like it belongs together and the ui elements are designed in a way that you instantly know what they can do.
Personally I love Gnome. I had a major mindshift circa 2005 when moving to OSX Tiger after being on windows my whole life prior to that. OSX introduced "spotlight" which as a super-fast indexed search, which i could access from a quick keyboard shortcut, to launch anything, app, file, folder, dictionary definition, web fallback, etc. They had far superior window-switching controls on the laptop (active corners, gestures, keyboard shortcuts) to windows at that time too. Essentially, these features worked together to drastically reduce or even eliminate mouse pointer find and click, sequentially, through say, the Windows start menu, that I had been used to. Fast forward many years and I have had a substantial amount of time on OSX, Linux Mint Cinnamon, Ubuntu and Pop OS Gnome, and a little bit of I3, XFCE and KDE Neon, Windows 7, 8.1, and 10.
Ultimately, while I appreciate the _massive_ customization in KDE, GNOME workflow is basically perfect for me on a laptop, primarily keyboard-driven with just the right amount of trackpad usage to pick something specific out of a large stack (workspaces, workspace applications etc), with enough polish and customization to live in something beautiful without sacrificing the incredible efficiency of the keyboard driven workflow.
Now, really... if you have been using the Start menu and sequential mouse clicking for 20 years and never opened your mind to other possibilities, I can understand why you might think that GNOME sucks. But the great irony is that such a perspective is like looking at the world through a pinhole, and there's a more efficient and beautiful way just outside the edge of your vision.
2:49 that's a lag? LOL
Damn 😅
that's not a lag, that's Gnome
Tried GNOME out recently thanks to this video. I could dig the UX aspects of it, however it had issues with stuttering whenever I tried to resize certain windows like Files, as if it was having trouble rendering it. On my laptop, it glitches the fuck out. KDE doesn't have this on either.
Once that's sorted out, I'll have to check it out again.
I tell people who just casually use computers to use gnome. It has a very simple straightforward workflow perfect for people who just want to browse the web and check email. KDE Plasma is the best all around DE but you have to tweak the awful default settings imo to get it perfect. I always end up going back to something very lightweight like i3 or openbox for the extreme amount of control, customization and minimal resources used but I really enjoyed KDE while I used it.
I personally really like XFCE, though XFCE lacks some things that i really like in plasma such as the night shade, microphone mute, unit conversion, file search in menu, etc. I'm just hoping that plasma 5.18 will finally bridge the gap for me (due to the kwin performance improvements, and by then Wayland probably will have more stability due to their current Wayland initiative), that said even though XFCE is still probably my overall favorite i still use plasma.
1) It wasn't the just the 'powerusers' who had problems with Gnome 3. Gnome 3 lead to the creation of Cinnamon, Unity, the comparative rise of the popularity of Xfce, forking Gnome 2 etc. Probably 2/3 of the users did not like it.
2) One important problem for me was the fullscreen launcher. Many years ago I decided it is probably not bad to have a fullscreen launcher as an option but there should be another way to launch applications. I don't think the start menu is ideal either btw.
I think nowadays Gnome and KDE are worse than derivatives like budgie or mate, at least from my pov, they are heavier and way more buggy
But way more polish and features?
@@ChrisD__ I rather have less features and few bugs than many features and bugs
@@villenmillenion7986 So... GNOME and the others, and just not KDE?
I don't hate gnome I am just more used to windows look I can't get used to gnome at all
Adwaita looks good and better than third party themes lol
Finally, 100% agree. It has some kind of character to it.
I love Adwaita! It's a great choice for a default theme, Dark or Light! Also, don't neglect your choices of fonts. For mono, I recommend Latin Modern Mono. It has the aesthetics of a proportional font. Choose any font that you like for the others. You'll need to install GNOME Tweaks in order to change the font.
Also, you will likely have to search the Internet for the Latin Modern Mono font. I downloaded it for my old Fedora 20 work computer from an Internet site. At home, I installed it from an old font disk that I purchased many years ago. I was cleaning out old computer stuff when I found the disk; it had a bunch of nice fonts on it, and Latin Modern Mono was one of them.
Edit: By the way, I run Fedora 30 at home presently.
The new adwaita theme :D
@@_ianjms Indeed!! lol
It's so controversial even how to pronounce the name is still debated.
I have been away from gnome some time for trying the ditch of tiling (i3). I must say I’m impressed what you get out of the box of stock gnome. Learn the basic key bindings and you have a really good power environment with tiling capabilities that looks really good.
Are you still on i3? I come from years of XFCE use, but switched to i3 on my notebook for a more keyboard-centric workflow (touchpad's a poor mouse replacement).
While i3 is snappy and I quickly got used to the keybindings I set up, I found it tedious to set up all the small conveniences like status-bar (i3blocks), launcher (rofi), notifications (dunst), locker (i3lock; also tied to systemd power events), etc. While I have extensive dotfiles to maintain all this customization, I nonetheless worry that this is too time consuming to maintain and will break again in the future. I don't enjoy tinkering for the sake of it, yet wish to be able to fix daily usability nuisances that an opinionated DE might carry.
I'm really playing with the thought for approaching Gnome 3 with a keyboard-centric workflow in mind. A "just works" solution that stays modern, so I can focus on work instead of the tools. But I also have a few particular concerns around CPU (and for notebook: power) consumption and maintainability via dotfiles (i.e. quick _reproduction_ of my setup on new machines).
Agreed 100% I like gnome with minimal customisation (hide top bar, extend dock height false etc.)
Nope gnome still is not optimized for touch devices. It also has keyboard shortcuts and it's a good thing to use the screen for more important stuff.
The only downside I see is its apps, their development progress is so slow and they usually lack some features.
About removing tray icons, I think the philosophy of Gnome is that you shouldn't run anything in background/minimized (that is why there is no minimize button or function (there is hide with 'Super+H' key but note how it's called "hide" and not "minimize". Your not supposed to use it to minimize.). Instead of minimizing and having apps in the background you are supposed to run everything in the foreground in different virtual desktops and you are really supposed to run 1-2 apps/windows max on a single desktop. I used to have Skype and TS3 and some other apps on the taskbar running in other desktop environments but now I just put Skype and TS3 on the first virtual desktop and move to another virtual desktop. And if someone sends you a message through Skype/Discord/etc. the app is supposed to send notification in Gnome.
GNOME is my favorite de because of the application switcher. Just hit the windows key and you can see all of your open programs, plus a dock, and a desktop switcher.
I personally use Zorin OS with the Pop! OS shell and theme.
Yeah! That type of functionality should be implemented on others DE as well.
The biggest issue with it is that they completely changed the UI from GNOME 2 to GNOME 3. People weren't expecting what is basically a different desktop environment. GNOME 3 on its own is fine, it's the fact that they made the huge change that caused an uproar.
Im not a gnoblin, im not a gnelf, im a hated linux gnome !
I personally do not like GNOME, that does not mean I do not appreciate the work that has been done for this desktop environment. Sometimes they will eventually create a function that can work on other desktop environments, too. I am using Plasma from KDE, because I love to customize my desktop environment in a way it fits with my personal tastes.
3:20 But it is, mostly. It looks very similar to Android, the "app" grid shows it all. Gnome doesn't look like a real desktop, that's why people keep saying if you own a tablet better use Gnome than anything else... or Windows 8.1, just kidding.
3:36 Gnome keeps removing features, it's not something related only to the classic Gnome (Gnome 2), but actual Gnome 3. The desktop icons was a good example. Now, they have switched all this complexity to an alpha extension, some distros still maintain the old Nautilus to make the desktop usable.
Nautilus is so simple that in configurations/settings that is a pain in the ass using it, especially if you are used to Nemo (how Nautilus should have been) or Dolphin.
4:32 Yes, Gnome is resource intensive (and heavy). Gnome is one of the heaviest desktop enviroments along with Jade, Budgie and Cinnamon. Cache makes it become more heavy compared to the way other desktops manage cache.
Gnome under Wayland is more resource heavy than it's on X.
5:49 Animations are clunky anyway, better disable them. They are very laggy as well, even on a machine with good specs.
6:30 Memory leaks are not something related only to Gnome. Cinnamon suffers from the same thing, maybe because it's a Gnome fork? Maybe because it still depends on Gnome? Maybe because it develops slowly and the leaks are still there? We don't know exactly. Cinnamon can be as resource intensive as Gnome. I have tested both and they are pretty close.
9:24 That's something I really hate about Gnome... Needing third-party extensions to enable something that is basic and should have been implemented to their settings. For example, the Gnome Tweaks settings are so basic, why not implement it to the system? The fact you need third-party tools (Gnome Tweaks, dconf) and third-party extensions for changing basic settings is a total mess or worse (terminal and css). Also, extensions often break, especially when Gnome version updates and the extension you are using continues in the old version... Not all extensions receives intense updates, so you are stuck to the devs wills to update or you lose functionality.
11:36 Better give the user the options than removing all of them because it looks "bloated", "clunky", "dense" or "complex". The excuse of the lazy. You can say KDE Plasma looks very confuse and messed up, but at least it gives you options that Gnome doesn't and force you to use the damn extensions as a magical way of solving problems (they don't solve, they bring new problems). Arguing Gnome should be used with the keyboard, then I better use a WM if that's the case.
15:04 If you want a keyboard-centric system, then use a WM than a slow heavy clunky glitchy desktop environment. People are used to the way macOS and Windows are.
People consider Gnome as the best for tablets because of the way it looks, the aesthetics, the big buttons and apps (good for the fingers, so tablets), it doesn't mean Gnome is the only one for tablets, but one of the best options in the Linux world.
16:30 Adwaita is very dated, even the newer version is ugly (personally by my tastes). Not as ugly as eOS icon theme and the Plasma icon theme. They all need to be improved.
That was a FABULOUS breakdown of Gnome!
Great paradigm: "we don't fix a buggy feature, we remove it" OMG.
Knowing how Gnome is extremely understaffed, that seems like the most sensible way: blogs.gnome.org/otte/2012/07/27/staring-into-the-abyss/
Guess it's good that they can afford removing a feature because they don't have the time/people to maintain it. I mean, on Windows people would get really mad about that, good thing it didn't hap... oh wait
@@WolfgangsChannel let's see how they spend that million dollar donation ;)
also, maybe they can ask the elementary os guys to see how they manage. honestly, all I know is I was on ubuntu since 2007 until around 2011-2012 and it's 2019 now, I'm not a twenty-some-year-old anymore, I'll be closer to 40 than 30 any day now. And how far has gnome shell moved in that time? Still working out bugs and performance issues. I mean most of the software (eg nautilus) was feature complete decades ago. so alright, cool, things are getting fixed, but remember that we were supposed to live with this shit for the past decade. I'm glad I spent that time using a macbook instead, at least now I have an insight in what a usable, well thought out desktop experience is all about. gnome tries to copy macos in so many ways, but it's just so terrible at it.
Gnome would be good if they actually supported a stable extension API. Sure, the Gnome workflow has great solutions for 75% of everything and it's worth learning the gnome way, but it simply doesn't support a bunch of edge cases, and the combination of fixes for those edge cases is what makes a usable computer. For example, every time I run Gnome I run into the problem of having an audio device switcher widget / menu. There's an extension for the current version that solves it about 75% of the time, but it's never been the same one twice. Basically, the Gnome devs are optimizing for their time at the cost of wasting a ton of everyone else's time - and users and extension devs are both pretty critical for the health of a DE.
Did you just called budgie mediocre?? Ok no, we need to talk.
Budgie is a clutterd mess right now.
I personally use it with only a few extensions, desktop icons, dash to dock, and kstatus, the only reason is i like to be able to click once to get to the program i want
I don't use a de very often. But when I do, that's xfce.
Really fair and honest review. Happy to be upfront here, I don't use Gnome, I prefer KDE and Cinnamon, and I'm a desktop user not a tablet/laptop user. For me, though, the biggest thing is that I'm a mouse, point and click type of person... and I don't really 'want' to change. I also like customizing my desktop (to a degree) and Gnome is the most difficult DE for that. I actually don't mind the look and feel of Gnome and I can mostly set Gnome up to suit my workflow style... it's just more work so I don't bother. Unless you're used to using keyboard shortcuts, I probably wouldn't recommend Gnome to new users... unless they really 'wanted' to learn a new workflow. Thanks, Wolfgang, a really great review... loved that you took the 'emotion' out of it :)
GNOME is stable and extendable, with base functionality that focus on what most users would be happy with. The design is great in my opinion, and miles ahead of KDE and others. 3.32 also brought better performance, and 3.34 should be even better. This makes GNOME a no-brainer, at least for me.
It looks good, and 3.32 made it finally use less memory than Windows 10, but as I have said before... 1. I am left handed, so I have to either let go of the mouse to use the super key, or work in a very uncomfortable position all the time. Without Dash-To-Dock Gnome 3 is in effect deliberately designed to be unusable by me. And also 2. The philosophy of the Gnome design team to lock in all choices and deliberately trying to change out apps for other apps is, I feel, simply anti-Linux. It's an Apple mindset: "How DARE you wanting to use a superior terminal app instead of our POS"?
So simple for an advanced user like me, maybe noobs would love it.
I think this is an Outstanding Video, you covered everything very well, and in detail, basically my opinion on the subject is kinda like, when I buy a Car, I don't go rip out the Dash Board and the seats, I just use it the way it is. The same is the way with my Desk Top environment. I will want to customize a few things, but as long as I can make it look cool, like the Dark Themes, I am ok. :)
Pantheon DE on Elementary OS in my opinion is much better than Gnome
i stopped using desktop icons when i began to switch between laptop only and laptop+external monitor setup often, and i'm glad i did. hitting the meta key and searching for the apps is just so much faster and more elegant.