there was a possible pilot deviation for this incident and they were given a number to copy, one of the other vids for this incident has the recording of that
Here in the UK we have a really low cost airline called Jet2. They fly to all the holiday destinations where young people can collect their first sexually transmitted diseases for free and drunk sunburnt people fight because of yellow piss beer. Quite often, a fight breaks out on the flight because someone has started drinking early in the morning before boarding the flight and then the flight has to emergency squawk 7700 and it gets a free airshow from the RAF's QRA Typhoons usually with massive sonic booms accompanying them. I live near Stansted Airport which is the "emergency airport" for the UK where these flights get escorted into and is also a hub for Jet2 flights. I went to Stansted some time ago and there was a gigantic poster as you walk in to the airport, advertising Jet2 saying something like; "Jet2. In 2022 97% of our fights were on time" and then went onto some other sales blurb... Then I stopped... walked back.... and re-read it.... I was right, that did say "fights" 😂😂😂 I reckon that thousands of people had walked past that advertising board and never taken the time to actually read it. It disappeared about a week later to be replaced with the same poster but corrected... probably a different printing company too I'd imagine 😂😂😂
Hey controller, if you ever see this - thank you. As a passenger who also happens to be a mortal being, I will always prefer caution, safety, and delays over unnecessary risk of death. Stay sharp
Tower: Spirit, I have a phone number for you, advise ready to copy Spirit: I'm sorry Tower, you'll have to pay an additional "copy FAA phone number" fee first
No one knows if the video placement of aircraft is accurate. If it were they crossed the hold short line, but who really knows. These videos are not intended to be accurate.
I would guess they tripped the automated systems. Probably only a smidge over, that an controller would not have manually called out, but if an alarm goes off they just react.
Crossing hold short bar without clearance is a runaway incursion - no "ifs. The bar is there to make sure that there is enough separation between the two aircrafts at all times. Aircrafts have certain wingspan, and they don't always follow centerline exactly due to eg wind and aborted take-offs happen. And during all that, hold short bart assures that there is separation between aircrafts. If you remove that separation, disaster can happen.
It's pretty common for some planes, when told to switch frequencies, to take too long to get it dialed in, or forget to push the button to switch and then sit there listening to the wrong frequency for a few minutes.
@@MidEx216Makes sense and distractions happen. However, switch to tower frequency (and the frequency in question for tower) shouldn't have been a surprise. Airliners have multiple radios, and often pilots will tune to the next expected frequency on another radio so that they can immediately switch when they are asked to.
Great job by west tower avoiding a potential incident. I don't hear any taxi or hold short instructions after the Spirit vacated the runway, but maybe that is missing in the recording. When they are told to monitor the other tower, she says something about 2-3 syllables between "Spirt Wings 1444" and "monitor tower", but I can't make it out. I wonder if they were told by tower to hold short 22R. Either way, a pilot should never cross a runway without explicit clearance to do so.
Heya, air traffic controller/linguist here... She says "spirit wings 1444 thanks for your help, monitor tower" ... Of course, in typical atc fashion/fast american english it comes out more like "thanks foryer-elp" but it's a pretty common goodbye phrase amongst atc.
Some users in one of other videos were speculating that Spirit tried to make sure their tail clears the taxiway behind and got their head too deep in doing so, that sounded plausible
@@brianhaygood183 ...obviously crossing the line was an accident, they weren't like "we need to make sure we're clear of the taxiway so let's pull onto the runway without clearance"
That has become more common, to make taxiways even more distinguishable from parallel runways. In Las Vegas, for a while they even had a squiggly centerline on the taxiway.
From what I have heard about aviation safety over the past few years the rate of incidents and emergencies has dropped across the board, that is except for this kind of incident. Runway excursions and incursions have risen for the past three years, though the data for 2023 so far makes it look like it will be lower than 2022.
Oh come on, this one was entirely precautionary. Aircraft was a tiny bit over the line, at the opposite end of the runway, and Tower reacted immediately. This video shows safety systems working exactly as intended.
The audio is only pieced together, but it appears the American was cleared for takeoff (off audio - text only) before the Spirit had clearance to cross, but the spirit instructions may have been on another frequency also.
Not really. Aircraft can NEVER cross runway without approval (must stop behind stop bar). Plus visibility was good. Likely pilots just didn’t brake early enough and went past line.
@@North_West1 I never heard permission to cross either. We appear to both be experienced pilots, or even safety representatives, that know we are required to hold short until given specific clearance to cross. If you read my comment again, I’m in complete agreement. The only thing I wrote is Spirit was told to monitor a frequency and they may have monitored the wrong frequency, or one that is not on the audio. I’m not saying they were given clearance to cross (I doubt it as they should be on the same tower frequency), but the video isn’t clear. I’m sure we have both experienced incidents where ATC multi-casts, or one side of an airport is using two different tower frequencies, because it is such a large airport. I agree with you.
I don’t get it - did Spirit cross the hold short line or not?! The FAA blurb at the end would suggest that they only got close to the line. Unless the line is crossed, I don’t understand why TWR canceled American’s take off clearance
The ADS-B data says they crossed. The FAA was softening their language likely because they decided they weren't going to take further action either way.
It is the phonetic version of the letter "Q". That is the last letter in this particular plane's call sign. Had it been an "A" then they would say "Alpha". The phonetic alphabet keeps people from having guess whether you are saying "M" or "N" or whether it is "Q" or "C, U", etc.
I believe there was a brief weather delay and when they started landings/ take offs there after, winds were shifting and no definitive decision on if going to use 22 R/L or 4 R/L. Was a very congested air space and trying to get back to normal sequence
Heard this a couple times. What is ground point anything? I heard ground .1 in Vegas and no numbers before so had no idea what other frequency they meant
In the USA ground frequencies are generally 121.something. At airports with multiple ground frequencies starting with 121, ATC assumes the pilots know the first 3 digits will be 121. If there are multiple frequencies but some don't start with the 121, ATC will read the entire frequency or often use the "name" of the ground control sector at which point it is expected the pilots can read their taxi chart for the appropriate frequency. "Contact South ground on the bridge." etc.
@@achmedbincouscous2846 Thank you! Not being a pilot I've picked up a lot but once in awhile something will throw me. I heard of dropping the first 1 of course for example
Assuming AA had their Autobrakes armed for T/O, when they retarded the thrust levers to idle, the AB system would have routed 3000PSI of braking to the brakes. Add in thrust reversers and an RTO can be pretty dramatic. But a lot of it depends on what speed they were at when they initiated the RTO. Obviously they were below V1 or they couldn't have rejected, but if they were at 80kts vs 120, it makes a huge difference. I don't know how AA calculates their stopping margin, but at my airline, in the 737, we calculate it based on expected runway, current METAR, weight, RCC etc for a reject at V1. The system starts with the minimum thrust it can get away with to save wear and tear on the engines and plays around with flap setting and increased thrust until it can get a positive stopping margin. If there isn't a positive stopping margin a T/O is not authorized.
Often when they max out their brakes it can require a total brake rebuild. There was one a couple weeks ago that lit the landing gear on fire. So, toward the shorter end of stopping distances and if Auto brakes engage, it can be pretty violent and inspections are required. Had they been already at V1 the fact this is a 7,800 ft long runway would likely mean they wouldn't expect to have trouble getting above another plane at the far end, but that is the sorry of risk they don't take.
It’s usually to check the brakes. An aborted takeoff on larger aircraft will often cause excessive brake heating that need a cool down time or possibly even replacement . That being said I can’t say that was the reason for sure.
The letter at the end indicates it was a "stub" flight. This is to avoid having two identical flight numbers on the same day, usually because the stub flight was delayed from the previous day. In AA's case they drop the first number and add a letter, so this was AAL1457 BOS-ORD
This was probably just the automated incursion warning system getting tripped. The Spirit was not actually on the runway, so there wasn't any risk here. This is the system being strict, but working as intended. An uncommanded runway incursion is unlikely to cause a problem because there are automated systems guarding that. The thing that worries me is the number of conflicts that controllers are putting aircraft into (they don't even seem to regard it as a big deal revoking final landing clearances!). All it is going to take is some fog at SF and a few stepped on transmissions to lose a lot of lives. The thing that really terrifies me is that a well hidden jammer and somebody watching for this situation could do it deliberately.
Can someone explain to me why they had to go back and be checked by maintenance? I mean, yeah, better safe than sorry, but these planes are not made out of paper and looking at the airport diagram AAL457Q came to a stop about 1/3 to 1/2 the distance to the crossing Spirit. So I assume there was no need to apply extraordinary braking measures causing overheating or something like that. No more than during a normal landing in any case. Is there a technical necessity for being so overcautious or are there more bureaucratic/policy reasons? It seems to me this happens everytime a bird sh*ts on the window or the pilot drops his sunglasses onto the console.
The pilots don't know the reason for the cancellation, so they stop as fast as safely possible, Also this is a very heavy plane, loaded with gas that would have to be burned off or dumped if they were coming in to land.
They were likely directed by company to do so as they’d want to eliminate any inherent maintenance risks following the incident. Think about it this way, if it were your family on board would you just say send it or want it checked out?
I'll try to phrase this for non pilots, but there are some important factors to understand if you want to know what's actually going on after a RTO so bear with me. In a nut shell, rejecting a T/O in a big airplane generates vast amounts of energy. Literally in the millions of foot pounds, depending on the weight and speed the reject was initiated. Think about basic Freshman physics. Force = Mass x Acceleration, right? A 200,000lb airplane stopping from 150 MPH or whatever their V1 was, is a LOT of force. That force has to be absorbed by the brakes, and by the tires. After a rejected T/O we calculate how much brake energy was generated. If it exceeds a certain value, there will be a mandatory brake cooling time before a subsequent takeoff attempt is authorized. This is because the stopping margin we calculate for each takeoff is based on cool brakes. Hot brakes are less effective so if we were to have to reject AGAIN, we need to be able to stop in the available runway. (Think about taking your street car to a race track. After a few hot laps, your stock brakes would start to fade. Same thing with airplane brakes) Also, if the brake energy was beyond another certain value, the tire fuse plugs may be in danger of melting. Airplane tires have a safety device called a fuse plug which melts at high temperatures to prevent the tire from exploding in the event of a high speed reject. When we run the rejected T/O calculations, the system will come back with "XX minutes of brake cooling required" before a subsequent T/O is authorized. In extreme cases such as a reject very close to V1, with very high brake energy, the calculation may lead to a "Do not approach the gate" for XX minutes which is an indication we are approaching fuse plug temps. That's how it works at my airline. I don't know how AA calculates their rejected T/O energy, some airlines don't. In which case, they would likely need to have MX come do an actual brake temp reading. Either way, there would almost certainly be a lengthy waiting period before the next T/O attempt were authorized. Add in the FAA Tarmac delay rules, and especially the minimum calculated brake release fuel, which they would likely burn down below while waiting for their brake cooling times, even only running the APU, and a gate return is the norm after a RTO. Now whether or not the AA crew ACTUALLY went back for MX, or went back for brake cooling, min T/O fuel or passenger issues is another question, but the "Going back for maint." thing isn't because of the airplane per se, it's because of the brakes and tires.
Why didn't they just clear spirit to expediate crossing runway , eliminates them needing to monitor tower and this whole situation. American was already a line up and wait.
This one possibly might be on the sensor. Until we get the transmission where ATC issues spirit a clearance to " hold short 22R Via P-E-M". Yes they possibly could have passed the hold short on "M", but it is not clear why they stopped in the first place.
If you’re the pilot on the runway with engines at full power in the background, hearing STOP could apply to any aircraft if you didn’t catch the callsign. If you hear “cancel takeoff clearance” it is also certainly going to be directed at you only
I did not hear the controller say hold short. Did he? That particular airport and runway combo is notorious. There was very little risk for the AA, as he would have been at eight hundred feet before he crossed the axis of the spirit.
I agree it would have been better had ATC used that verbiage, but it’s not required. A pilot is always expected to hold short until specific clearance to cross is received. What you can’t hear is if Spirit was cleared to cross on the frequency they were told to monitor. Difficult video to make any judgment.
I didn't hear it, but you have to be cleared to cross a runway. If the controller doesn't say "cross [runway number] on [taxiway]," you are not clear to cross. Its better for ATC to say "hold short," but its not a requirement. When the pilots brief their taxi, it is their responsibility to know that they are not clear to cross the runway, meaning they need to hold short.
They were instructed to hold short on a separate tower frequency (BOS E). This video only shows the previous tower controller telling them to monitor the next frequency (BOS W), who would then assign a runway crossing for his runway. It's also worth considering what if AA had needed to abort further down the runway at higher speeds and now you have a traffic conflict that shouldn't be there.
A little confusing for ATC to not use the 4L designation instead of the 22R designation when telling Spirit to cross. I don’t think they weren’t talking, I think Spirit was just confused…
@@saxmanb777 I know what the procedure is, it still makes perfect sense, but I am saying I think Spirit had a period of hesitation and then bad judgement when approaching that intersection. Its just a weird location.
@@androidphone1901 What's both interesting and ridiculous is, most of these incursions are caused by one airline. Even worse, the air traffic controllers aren't even doing enough!
IMHO - there seems to be more public attention to these events now vs a ton more events. Swiss cheese safety model worked here. Safety measure A (stop bar) fail. Safety B, C, & D kept everyone safe. ATC called out. Plane on taking off was aware of spirit location. Final “safety” measure was location of intrusion, departing plane should have been airborne and high enough to miss intruding nose.
What is disturbing is Spirit ignoring the controller's calls, they had to know their position over the hold short line while they were told to expedite and didn't. Good thing the controller was on the ball.
This is what happens when Spirit hires anyone with a pulse. The interview was literally them opening my logbook, seeing 1500 hours, and saying alright we’ll take you.
@@TB-um1xzyea exact same crap.. Just like the Delta that went through the hail. United had an incursion in HNL as well recently and the 767 that got destroyed in Houston. I wouldn’t say the legacies are hiring astronauts either…
Yes, actually they did. At least, it was reported that they did. Spirit Wings 1444 would have received its taxi instructions just after they landed, which occurred before the start of the video.
You also wouldn't issue both a hold short and a frequency change in one transmission, so you can make sure they read it back right. I imagine they got "taxi via K hold short rwy 22R", read it back, then got monitor tower. But even if not you're not allowed to just cross (and they didn't, but they got a bit close for comfort)
@@VASAviationJust crossed the line and stopped! Controller panicked for no good reason. Purely my opinion of course. Think about how much fuel (and unnecessary damage to the environment) is wasted each year because of GA and aborted TO due to incompetent controllers? I really did understand Air Canada when the just put their bird down in SFO and ignored incompetent controllers. 👍
@@jonmcfarmer6954 it is a HOLD LINE, and FAR States crossing one WITHOUT permission is a big no no. you as a pilot hold a responsibility to follow the FAR with respect to safety reasons why a HOLD LINE is there on a runway. That Line is there as a safety mark to ENSURE that no aircraft in the event of any abnormality will have a collision if a plane rolls down the runway. Spirit Crossed PAST the line, that is a SAFETY issue. your opinion is noted and rejected under Federal Regulations. Controller's judgement is 100% here.
@@CapStar362 We can agree that we disagree. There are rules and then there is common sense. Of course if people don't have common sense they better strictly stick to the rules. 😏
Past the hold short bars is the runway and two aircraft cannot operate on the same runway if one of them is either landing or departing. Rules. Period.
Great quick call by ATC!
ARIWS working well!
Why didn't they get a number to copy? Seems like Spirit messed up!
@@AlishaField1609 it's spirit, so they charge atc to take down the number
@@AlishaField1609I've seen another video of this same exchange and they did get a number to copy down after a "possible pilot deviation"
What was Spirit actually cleared to do ? We didn't get that part of the audio. It may not have been their fault.
If you think you can avoid having Spirit Airlines ruin your travel day by simply flying another carrier, think again!
😅😅😅
Haha!
Great perspective 😂
Gotta give the crew a little slack, there was a full blown riot happening in the cabin.
Is Spirit this bad?
I guess the passengers forgot to pay Spirit the "hold short runway" fee.
Actually, the passengers paid for priority taxi
Haha
That's good
😂😂😂
The tower did not give them a number to call because Spirit would have made it a collect call
there was a possible pilot deviation for this incident and they were given a number to copy, one of the other vids for this incident has the recording of that
Actually, they did in a different video
😂😂😂 the comments are priceless!
Comment of the century
bro thought he knew something
In Spirits defense, they were probably dealing with a fist fight in the cabin.
Here in the UK we have a really low cost airline called Jet2. They fly to all the holiday destinations where young people can collect their first sexually transmitted diseases for free and drunk sunburnt people fight because of yellow piss beer.
Quite often, a fight breaks out on the flight because someone has started drinking early in the morning before boarding the flight and then the flight has to emergency squawk 7700 and it gets a free airshow from the RAF's QRA Typhoons usually with massive sonic booms accompanying them.
I live near Stansted Airport which is the "emergency airport" for the UK where these flights get escorted into and is also a hub for Jet2 flights.
I went to Stansted some time ago and there was a gigantic poster as you walk in to the airport, advertising Jet2 saying something like;
"Jet2. In 2022 97% of our fights were on time" and then went onto some other sales blurb...
Then I stopped... walked back.... and re-read it....
I was right, that did say "fights" 😂😂😂 I reckon that thousands of people had walked past that advertising board and never taken the time to actually read it. It disappeared about a week later to be replaced with the same poster but corrected... probably a different printing company too I'd imagine 😂😂😂
Yeah, but it was probably a fist fight between the flight attendants.
😂😂😂😂
@Vanilla0729 😂😂😂😂
American Airlines pilot showing top level professionalism right here - well done!
Thanks for your sarcasm
@@mango7862 no sarcasm, the AA pilot did a great job
"Spirit, I did not give you clearance to cross 22 Right, where are you going?"
"Uhhhhh, Vegas?"
Hey controller, if you ever see this - thank you. As a passenger who also happens to be a mortal being, I will always prefer caution, safety, and delays over unnecessary risk of death. Stay sharp
Tower: Spirit, I have a phone number for you, advise ready to copy
Spirit: I'm sorry Tower, you'll have to pay an additional "copy FAA phone number" fee first
Very profressional by the American
Wow the graphics on this video are incredible
The plot thickens...did Spirit then in fact cross the Hold short line OR did they just get "too close"...as deemed by ATC?
Agreed. Who knows.
No one knows if the video placement of aircraft is accurate. If it were they crossed the hold short line, but who really knows. These videos are not intended to be accurate.
You can get as close as you want to the hold short bar as long as no part of the aircraft crosses over it.
I would guess they tripped the automated systems. Probably only a smidge over, that an controller would not have manually called out, but if an alarm goes off they just react.
Crossing hold short bar without clearance is a runaway incursion - no "ifs. The bar is there to make sure that there is enough separation between the two aircrafts at all times. Aircrafts have certain wingspan, and they don't always follow centerline exactly due to eg wind and aborted take-offs happen. And during all that, hold short bart assures that there is separation between aircrafts. If you remove that separation, disaster can happen.
Time flies like an arrow; spirit flies like a banana...
Hahaha. That is so absurdly stupid a mixed mixed metaphor I just can't stop laughing. Thanks.
"These pretzels are making me thirsty!"
no no no you got all wrong....
these pretzels... are making me thirsty
Seems odd that Spirit suddenly lost radio communications for a minute...
They realized they f'd up 😅
My guess is they just didn’t switch to tower freq yet. Doubt they even knew anything happened unless tower ended up saying something.
They had to wait to collect an extra $10 from each passenger for the extra fuel used.
It's pretty common for some planes, when told to switch frequencies, to take too long to get it dialed in, or forget to push the button to switch and then sit there listening to the wrong frequency for a few minutes.
@@MidEx216Makes sense and distractions happen. However, switch to tower frequency (and the frequency in question for tower) shouldn't have been a surprise. Airliners have multiple radios, and often pilots will tune to the next expected frequency on another radio so that they can immediately switch when they are asked to.
Great job by west tower avoiding a potential incident. I don't hear any taxi or hold short instructions after the Spirit vacated the runway, but maybe that is missing in the recording. When they are told to monitor the other tower, she says something about 2-3 syllables between "Spirt Wings 1444" and "monitor tower", but I can't make it out. I wonder if they were told by tower to hold short 22R. Either way, a pilot should never cross a runway without explicit clearance to do so.
Heya, air traffic controller/linguist here... She says "spirit wings 1444 thanks for your help, monitor tower" ... Of course, in typical atc fashion/fast american english it comes out more like "thanks foryer-elp" but it's a pretty common goodbye phrase amongst atc.
Spirit is the nissan altima of the skies
Some users in one of other videos were speculating that Spirit tried to make sure their tail clears the taxiway behind and got their head too deep in doing so, that sounded plausible
No competent pilot would cross a hold short line. A runway incursion is not preferable to blocking an unused portion of a taxiway behind you.
@@brianhaygood183 ...obviously crossing the line was an accident, they weren't like "we need to make sure we're clear of the taxiway so let's pull onto the runway without clearance"
The tangent I find so interesting is the taxiway next to 4L/22R is labeled with a yellow TAXI. That doesn’t seem to be standard….
That has become more common, to make taxiways even more distinguishable from parallel runways. In Las Vegas, for a while they even had a squiggly centerline on the taxiway.
If it keeps one yutz from landing on the taxiway…
Either the airports are getting more and more unsafe... or we're finally hearing about stuff that has been going on for a long time.
The latter. It's RUclips channels like this that are shedding light on stuff we never heard about in the past.
It's both.
From what I have heard about aviation safety over the past few years the rate of incidents and emergencies has dropped across the board, that is except for this kind of incident. Runway excursions and incursions have risen for the past three years, though the data for 2023 so far makes it look like it will be lower than 2022.
This stuff definitely isn’t new.
Oh come on, this one was entirely precautionary. Aircraft was a tiny bit over the line, at the opposite end of the runway, and Tower reacted immediately.
This video shows safety systems working exactly as intended.
Why no "possible pilot deviation - I have number for you to call when ready" - for the Spirit Wings 1444?
They received a while after that
@@VASAviation i was gonna ask the same thing lol
Does ATC need to add: (hold short) for departing aircraft?
The audio is only pieced together, but it appears the American was cleared for takeoff (off audio - text only) before the Spirit had clearance to cross, but the spirit instructions may have been on another frequency also.
Not really. Aircraft can NEVER cross runway without approval (must stop behind stop bar). Plus visibility was good.
Likely pilots just didn’t brake early enough and went past line.
@@michelm.6033in audio I never heard Spirit had permission to cross. (May not have been on this audio.)
@@North_West1 I never heard permission to cross either. We appear to both be experienced pilots, or even safety representatives, that know we are required to hold short until given specific clearance to cross. If you read my comment again, I’m in complete agreement. The only thing I wrote is Spirit was told to monitor a frequency and they may have monitored the wrong frequency, or one that is not on the audio. I’m not saying they were given clearance to cross (I doubt it as they should be on the same tower frequency), but the video isn’t clear. I’m sure we have both experienced incidents where ATC multi-casts, or one side of an airport is using two different tower frequencies, because it is such a large airport. I agree with you.
I don’t get it - did Spirit cross the hold short line or not?! The FAA blurb at the end would suggest that they only got close to the line. Unless the line is crossed, I don’t understand why TWR canceled American’s take off clearance
The ADS-B data says they crossed. The FAA was softening their language likely because they decided they weren't going to take further action either way.
@@brianhaygood183 Fair enough then. All’s well that ends well.
So, how much "short" of the Hold Short" line is too short?
I was waiting to hear, "Sprit Wings 1444 I have a number for you to call, advise when ready to copy."
I didn't hear it neither on Tower nor Ground frequencies
If it isn't a toll free number they won't call it
@@VASAviationthey did get a number, it’s included in a different video
The amazing thing to me is how down and depressed all the Spirit pilots sound
I had to check if the play speed was set to 1.5 …. Damn the controller talks fast!
I guess they can hire some crossing guards. Retirees work pretty cheap.
Is it just me or are most of these videos from either Spirit or Southwest airlines?
It's you.
Definitely just you.
Possible commenter deviation.
Or Delta, or American, or you know, one of the airlines that fly lots of flights
Clearly lot of spirit and southwest fanboys out there
what's the Quebec at the end of the callsign for/mean?
It is the phonetic version of the letter "Q". That is the last letter in this particular plane's call sign. Had it been an "A" then they would say "Alpha". The phonetic alphabet keeps people from having guess whether you are saying "M" or "N" or whether it is "Q" or "C, U", etc.
There’s was another AA flight in the air with the same flight number so dispatch add a phonetic to avoid confusion.
@@brianhaygood183 yea I knew the phonetic but wasn’t sure why it was there
@@saxmanb777 gotcha thanks
Anyone ever see Soul Plane? That's Spirit Airlines.
I believe there was a brief weather delay and when they started landings/ take offs there after, winds were shifting and no definitive decision on if going to use 22 R/L or 4 R/L. Was a very congested air space and trying to get back to normal sequence
What does that have to do with Spirit driving right past the Hold short line?
No excuse, on spirit, just giving little insight on how chaotic the day was…
So AA was ready to take off but they discovered a "maintenance" problem after being recycled?
Emergency braking will do that, yeah.
@krynnyth Oh, I suppose. It wasn't clear to me that's what happened but it seems plausible.
Heard this a couple times. What is ground point anything? I heard ground .1 in Vegas and no numbers before so had no idea what other frequency they meant
In the USA ground frequencies are generally 121.something. At airports with multiple ground frequencies starting with 121, ATC assumes the pilots know the first 3 digits will be 121. If there are multiple frequencies but some don't start with the 121, ATC will read the entire frequency or often use the "name" of the ground control sector at which point it is expected the pilots can read their taxi chart for the appropriate frequency. "Contact South ground on the bridge." etc.
@@achmedbincouscous2846 Thank you! Not being a pilot I've picked up a lot but once in awhile something will throw me. I heard of dropping the first 1 of course for example
As a non-pilot, what's the stopping time like on these large aircraft? Are they able to stop fast in case of a potential collision?
Depends on how hard you apply the brakes, the speed you're going and how heavy you are
It's impossible to give a general answer, there are too many variables. You'd have to calculate it for each specific situation.
Assuming AA had their Autobrakes armed for T/O, when they retarded the thrust levers to idle, the AB system would have routed 3000PSI of braking to the brakes. Add in thrust reversers and an RTO can be pretty dramatic. But a lot of it depends on what speed they were at when they initiated the RTO. Obviously they were below V1 or they couldn't have rejected, but if they were at 80kts vs 120, it makes a huge difference. I don't know how AA calculates their stopping margin, but at my airline, in the 737, we calculate it based on expected runway, current METAR, weight, RCC etc for a reject at V1. The system starts with the minimum thrust it can get away with to save wear and tear on the engines and plays around with flap setting and increased thrust until it can get a positive stopping margin. If there isn't a positive stopping margin a T/O is not authorized.
Often when they max out their brakes it can require a total brake rebuild. There was one a couple weeks ago that lit the landing gear on fire. So, toward the shorter end of stopping distances and if Auto brakes engage, it can be pretty violent and inspections are required. Had they been already at V1 the fact this is a 7,800 ft long runway would likely mean they wouldn't expect to have trouble getting above another plane at the far end, but that is the sorry of risk they don't take.
So did the Spirit came too close to the hold short line or did they pass it? Because if they’re were behind the line, it was not their fault.
My guess was the Tower was going remind them to stop, but they already passed the bar.
ADS-B data shows they crossed it.
2:12 I wonder why American Airlines had to return to the gate and have a mechanic "look at things"? They had barely started their takeoff.
They had gained some speed during that roll
Wanted to let the passengers off to avoid the diarrhea in the aisles like that recent Delta flight...
It’s usually to check the brakes. An aborted takeoff on larger aircraft will often cause excessive brake heating that need a cool down time or possibly even replacement . That being said I can’t say that was the reason for sure.
they were trying to hurry up, save gas to keep tickets cheap...
Too close to the hold short line does not require a rejected takeoff. Crossing the hold short line would require a rejected takeoff.
Read the caption at 0:31. He crossed it.
AA457 is a MIA-MCO-MIA flight since at least August 2022…..when WAS this?
14th August
@@tomstravels520 AA457 doesn’t operate out of Boston!?
@@dangrad AA457Q is the callsign, not the flight number. The flight number was AA1457
This was not AA457
The letter at the end indicates it was a "stub" flight. This is to avoid having two identical flight numbers on the same day, usually because the stub flight was delayed from the previous day. In AA's case they drop the first number and add a letter, so this was AAL1457 BOS-ORD
Why is their call sign Spirit Wings? Why not just Spirit? Just wondering
Because Spirit is the call sign of Norwegian Aviation College
Too close to the hold short line or passed it?
Victor puts captions on the video for a reason. At 0:31 it says ADS-B data shows he crossed it.
@brianhaygood183 at 2:22 it states that controller canceled take-off clearance. Cause spirit had come too close.
controller sounded like he was holding back tears lol
Well that’s not ideal
Is 2023 The year of Runway incursions?
What happens when a swift driver fails their CDL? They get hired to spirit airlines.
How long before a major incident happens in the US, given how often these things are happening?
The controls worked mind
This was probably just the automated incursion warning system getting tripped. The Spirit was not actually on the runway, so there wasn't any risk here. This is the system being strict, but working as intended. An uncommanded runway incursion is unlikely to cause a problem because there are automated systems guarding that. The thing that worries me is the number of conflicts that controllers are putting aircraft into (they don't even seem to regard it as a big deal revoking final landing clearances!). All it is going to take is some fog at SF and a few stepped on transmissions to lose a lot of lives. The thing that really terrifies me is that a well hidden jammer and somebody watching for this situation could do it deliberately.
Systems worked as designed. “A”failed but B, C, D, E worked.
Can someone explain to me why they had to go back and be checked by maintenance? I mean, yeah, better safe than sorry, but these planes are not made out of paper and looking at the airport diagram AAL457Q came to a stop about 1/3 to 1/2 the distance to the crossing Spirit. So I assume there was no need to apply extraordinary braking measures causing overheating or something like that. No more than during a normal landing in any case. Is there a technical necessity for being so overcautious or are there more bureaucratic/policy reasons? It seems to me this happens everytime a bird sh*ts on the window or the pilot drops his sunglasses onto the console.
Perhaps don't assume??
The pilots don't know the reason for the cancellation, so they stop as fast as safely possible, Also this is a very heavy plane, loaded with gas that would have to be burned off or dumped if they were coming in to land.
They were likely directed by company to do so as they’d want to eliminate any inherent maintenance risks following the incident. Think about it this way, if it were your family on board would you just say send it or want it checked out?
@@utvwerxoffroadfabdesign4172 I would say "What does the pilot's training and experience say to do?" and follow that advice.
I'll try to phrase this for non pilots, but there are some important factors to understand if you want to know what's actually going on after a RTO so bear with me. In a nut shell, rejecting a T/O in a big airplane generates vast amounts of energy. Literally in the millions of foot pounds, depending on the weight and speed the reject was initiated. Think about basic Freshman physics. Force = Mass x Acceleration, right? A 200,000lb airplane stopping from 150 MPH or whatever their V1 was, is a LOT of force. That force has to be absorbed by the brakes, and by the tires. After a rejected T/O we calculate how much brake energy was generated. If it exceeds a certain value, there will be a mandatory brake cooling time before a subsequent takeoff attempt is authorized. This is because the stopping margin we calculate for each takeoff is based on cool brakes. Hot brakes are less effective so if we were to have to reject AGAIN, we need to be able to stop in the available runway. (Think about taking your street car to a race track. After a few hot laps, your stock brakes would start to fade. Same thing with airplane brakes) Also, if the brake energy was beyond another certain value, the tire fuse plugs may be in danger of melting. Airplane tires have a safety device called a fuse plug which melts at high temperatures to prevent the tire from exploding in the event of a high speed reject. When we run the rejected T/O calculations, the system will come back with "XX minutes of brake cooling required" before a subsequent T/O is authorized. In extreme cases such as a reject very close to V1, with very high brake energy, the calculation may lead to a "Do not approach the gate" for XX minutes which is an indication we are approaching fuse plug temps. That's how it works at my airline. I don't know how AA calculates their rejected T/O energy, some airlines don't. In which case, they would likely need to have MX come do an actual brake temp reading. Either way, there would almost certainly be a lengthy waiting period before the next T/O attempt were authorized. Add in the FAA Tarmac delay rules, and especially the minimum calculated brake release fuel, which they would likely burn down below while waiting for their brake cooling times, even only running the APU, and a gate return is the norm after a RTO. Now whether or not the AA crew ACTUALLY went back for MX, or went back for brake cooling, min T/O fuel or passenger issues is another question, but the "Going back for maint." thing isn't because of the airplane per se, it's because of the brakes and tires.
Too close, but did they exceeded the holding point?
Looks like it according to ADS-b data. FAA is investigating
@@VASAviationOK, we will have to wait until FAA does a final report or something, thank you! Gracias ;)
what? No number to call?
Why didn't they just clear spirit to expediate crossing runway , eliminates them needing to monitor tower and this whole situation. American was already a line up and wait.
Because each controller is responsible for his or her runways
Sooooo spirit crossed the line, right? RIGHT?????
So many runway incursions lately.
Here we go again 💀 after Delta near miss this January 🥶
This one possibly might be on the sensor. Until we get the transmission where ATC issues spirit a clearance to " hold short 22R Via P-E-M". Yes they possibly could have passed the hold short on "M", but it is not clear why they stopped in the first place.
They were told to hold short at K, not M
correct K, was that instruction in the video? just curious if it was recorded. @@VASAviation
Big Canadian accent on American there.
Knew how to pronounce "Quebec" for sure.
The rules are written in blood.
These events are getting far too frequent...........
No pilot deviation? What a screwup.
it was given after the video ended here, its on another channel with much longer audio
Too close to the hold short line?
Either they held short or they didn’t. Jesus.
they crossed it, it was specifically mentioned
Why didn’t act say stop stop stop?
If you’re the pilot on the runway with engines at full power in the background, hearing STOP could apply to any aircraft if you didn’t catch the callsign. If you hear “cancel takeoff clearance” it is also certainly going to be directed at you only
This business is way out of hand moving forward as the end draws nearer.!
I did not hear the controller say hold short. Did he? That particular airport and runway combo is notorious. There was very little risk for the AA, as he would have been at eight hundred feet before he crossed the axis of the spirit.
I agree it would have been better had ATC used that verbiage, but it’s not required. A pilot is always expected to hold short until specific clearance to cross is received. What you can’t hear is if Spirit was cleared to cross on the frequency they were told to monitor. Difficult video to make any judgment.
I didn't hear it, but you have to be cleared to cross a runway. If the controller doesn't say "cross [runway number] on [taxiway]," you are not clear to cross. Its better for ATC to say "hold short," but its not a requirement. When the pilots brief their taxi, it is their responsibility to know that they are not clear to cross the runway, meaning they need to hold short.
Spirit was on ground control's frequency which wasn't depicted here. So we don't know from this anyway.
Not if he had to abort late into the takeoff run. Assuming everything will be ok is what causes accidents. Nasty ones.
They were instructed to hold short on a separate tower frequency (BOS E). This video only shows the previous tower controller telling them to monitor the next frequency (BOS W), who would then assign a runway crossing for his runway. It's also worth considering what if AA had needed to abort further down the runway at higher speeds and now you have a traffic conflict that shouldn't be there.
Why is it that so many controllers and pilots talk like doctors write? ;)
Much easier to understand once you know the usual phrases. Those are the parts they tend to slur, like, "cleartalan".
@@brianhaygood183 That's a good point, they're all practiced in it.
Wonder if spirit was ever told to cross the runway? Seems to be missing that part of the communication.
This whole video is about them entering the runway without clearance and you're wondering if they were told to cross the runway?
Did they get a pilot deviation?
No that I could here on Tower or Ground frequency
@@VASAviation He did get one on ground frequency. I doubt, much will come of it though, if he wasn't over the line. That should be okay, no?
"The tower says we're number 4 for takeoff but I say we're number 1 so we're just going to go ahead and get rolling"
Spirit had just landed.
A little confusing for ATC to not use the 4L designation instead of the 22R designation when telling Spirit to cross. I don’t think they weren’t talking, I think Spirit was just confused…
I think it’s because they had the planes taking off of the other end.
They always verbalize the primary runway in use when giving crossing instructions. Using the reciprocal is even more confusing.
@@saxmanb777 I know what the procedure is, it still makes perfect sense, but I am saying I think Spirit had a period of hesitation and then bad judgement when approaching that intersection. Its just a weird location.
Wow
Spirit wasn’t even close to a runway incursion.
Go and touch some grass.
Quite the evil spirits…
This absolutely confirms that pineapple belongs on pizza.
Spirit 1444, possible pilot deviation
We are really seeing way too many of these lately. Terrifying.
They almost go boom
I'm seeing a trend here. And IMHO, this needs to be prevented from happening.
That's because it's under the spotlight
@@androidphone1901 What's both interesting and ridiculous is, most of these incursions are caused by one airline. Even worse, the air traffic controllers aren't even doing enough!
IMHO - there seems to be more public attention to these events now vs a ton more events.
Swiss cheese safety model worked here. Safety measure A (stop bar) fail. Safety B, C, & D kept everyone safe.
ATC called out. Plane on taking off was aware of spirit location. Final “safety” measure was location of intrusion, departing plane should have been airborne and high enough to miss intruding nose.
Seems like prevention worked pretty well here.
Not another runway incursion 🤦♂️
What is disturbing is Spirit ignoring the controller's calls, they had to know their position over the hold short line while they were told to expedite and didn't. Good thing the controller was on the ball.
How do you know they were ignoring it?
you don't know if they were ignoring it, it takes more than a few seconds to switch to tower. Especially if you're busy at that moment.
you are insinuating that they INTENTIONALLY ignored the request to monitor tower?
i would love to know where you are coming up with that one.
This is what happens when Spirit hires anyone with a pulse. The interview was literally them opening my logbook, seeing 1500 hours, and saying alright we’ll take you.
I mean, look at the Legacies.
@@TB-um1xzyea exact same crap.. Just like the Delta that went through the hail. United had an incursion in HNL as well recently and the 767 that got destroyed in Houston. I wouldn’t say the legacies are hiring astronauts either…
Mickey Mouse
ATC did not say “Hold short” tower SHOULD have said “Spirit 1444 Hold short of RWY22R and monitor tower”
Holding short of all runways is the rule unless you have specific clearance to cross.
Yes, actually they did. At least, it was reported that they did. Spirit Wings 1444 would have received its taxi instructions just after they landed, which occurred before the start of the video.
You also wouldn't issue both a hold short and a frequency change in one transmission, so you can make sure they read it back right. I imagine they got "taxi via K hold short rwy 22R", read it back, then got monitor tower. But even if not you're not allowed to just cross (and they didn't, but they got a bit close for comfort)
That is like saying nobody told you to stop at the stop sign. Hold Short is required until cleared across.
How Spirit is still allowed to operate is beyond me.
A Spirit Airlines aircraft has not caused a fatality event in its 30-year history.
Why wouldn’t they be?
Tower ❤
American ❤
Spirit nope
Sprint Airlines the Swift Trucking equivalent of airlines.
You’re right. No one else does the same shit… ruclips.net/video/1FLvu7vE7kQ/видео.html
If this is graphic is correct, I do not se any problems except an incompetent controller.
Spirit crossed the line
@@VASAviationJust crossed the line and stopped! Controller panicked for no good reason. Purely my opinion of course. Think about how much fuel (and unnecessary damage to the environment) is wasted each year because of GA and aborted TO due to incompetent controllers? I really did understand Air Canada when the just put their bird down in SFO and ignored incompetent controllers. 👍
@@jonmcfarmer6954 it is a HOLD LINE, and FAR States crossing one WITHOUT permission is a big no no. you as a pilot hold a responsibility to follow the FAR with respect to safety reasons why a HOLD LINE is there on a runway.
That Line is there as a safety mark to ENSURE that no aircraft in the event of any abnormality will have a collision if a plane rolls down the runway.
Spirit Crossed PAST the line, that is a SAFETY issue. your opinion is noted and rejected under Federal Regulations. Controller's judgement is 100% here.
@@CapStar362 We can agree that we disagree. There are rules and then there is common sense. Of course if people don't have common sense they better strictly stick to the rules. 😏
Past the hold short bars is the runway and two aircraft cannot operate on the same runway if one of them is either landing or departing. Rules. Period.
First here
Too slow there junior😂
😂