@deano27671 Happen to have Coe's 1:42.33. Only seen bits and pieces of it from Born to Run. Wasn't the third 200 in something like mid 24? Amazing that he could accelerate like after after a 50.5-.6 opening lap. The penultimate 200 in my 800's are usually the slowest for me, then I can pick it up a bit for the last 200. Cheers Deano!
So, he was stuck with the 800. That would have been a fascinating match up, as 2 days later Coe also beat Rono convincingly over 1 mile, and a month after that he beat Coghlan, Mcloud and Foster's record by 9 secs in a 4 mile road race in 17:54. The first signs of what was to come the following summer!
@7agneskickingbird7 - I have always believed Bekele was using EPO. I have heard lots of things about Hermens which fail to reassure me his athletes are clean. I don't know a great deal about Salazar's set up in Oregon, but I believe Farah is dedicated and hasn't made the most of his talent in the past. I'd like to think he's genuine at this stage, as is Rupp. The WR for 10k should be in the 26:45 - 27:00 region by now. 26:17 is just plain silly!
@deano27671 You may have a point about Morceli. Before 93 he didn't seem nearly as dominant and I remember watching some footage of the race on a CBC sports year in review and he actually looked knackered after he crossed the line whereas in his 3:27 he was all jolly faced. I have no doubt that the anemia he had in 97 was a direct result of EPO. Of all the past 1500/Mile wr holders El G and Morceli were the closest to reaching their limits. Coe who rarely raced the mile certainly didn't.
@ARRISIPPY I've got the earlier UK record from Brussels 78, which is of a slightly better quality. I'll work on that one next. I've also just uploaded Ovett's 74 European 800 silver (last 200m) and European Cup 1500 gold (last 450m) from 1977. Glad u liked it.
@7agneskickingbird7 Cheers for that info. I don't doubt that you're right! I think EL G was a great athlete, but there is no way he was 3 secs better than the likes of Coe, Cram & Aouita. I think Coe had the potential of running 3:27.5-3:28.2 at absolute best with perfect pace and conditions. He simply never got these conditions & didn't run enough big 1500s on a circuit which wasn't like that of the late 90's.
@7agneskickingbird7 I concur. It just doesn't compute that an athlete (Lagat) can run a 3:26 for 1500m but is unable to break 1:46 for 800m despite many races at the the distance on the circuit. Even Scott & Walker could run 1:45 & they were 5 or 6 seconds slower over 1500m!! The fact that EL G NEVER contested 800m at all in any European race, which almost all great 1500 runners have done, even for just speed work, only makes me more suspicious. That 1:42 TT was a pure myth to detract from this.
@7agneskickingbird7 I think you're pretty much spot on for both athletes. I think when Coe's Stockholm run was "evened out" for economic pacing (went to 3:30.6) and lack of drafting (had none from 200m to end, but only taken up to the bell) we get 3:28.3. His Rieti run in 86, when just past his absolute best, of 3:29.7 (54.0, 58.0, 56.1, 41.6) also works out at 3:28.3 when evened out for economic pacing and lack of drafting on the 2nd lap.
@deano27671 Do you have any more videos? Like Coe's 11.3 last 100 at the Europa?? cup semi. That has to be one of the best kicks ever along with Ryun's apparent 36.4 last 300 in 67. More like 36.7-36.9 when I saw it one time. Coe and Ryun are my two favorite middle distance runners, I would rate Coe as the best ever and Ryun about 5th behind Snell, Ovett and Cram. Cheers Deano!
@KingLiopleurodon Hi! Thanks for the words of support re Ventolin. LOL. He is truly infuriating and best ignored really. I fear that others on there believe the crap he spouts if he says it often enough. Yeah, I think Coe got into some very good form late in 78, after a couple of spells of injury mid summer. Interestingly, he tried to get to run in that epic 2 mile run at the same meet, according to his bio, but either Andy Norman or Ovett kept him out of the race.
the famous Coe purple shirt or is it aubergine , cram had the jarrow gold and ovett had the russian red. incredible stuff all these downloads from you and arrisisipy. keep em coming.
W0W!!!!! This actually turned out to be sebs fastest ever 800m on British soil, way back in 1978!!!!!!!! Ovett could have run 1500m in 3,31,in 1977 and seb was closing in on Alberto,s world record!!!! 1979 !!!!! WHAT A FANTASTIC YEAR,,,THANKS SO MUCH FOR THESE MEMORIES DEANO,ESPECIALLY IN TIMES LIKE THESE,,,, REMINDS ME OF THAT OLD SONG,"IF I COULD TURN BACK TIME!!!!!! SEBS 800 AND ESPECIALLY HIS KILOMETRE WILL BE UK RECORDS FOR ANOTHER 40 YEARS,,,AT LEAST,,,,,,,THAT IS TRULY PHENOMENAL,,,, THE FACT THAT APART FROM MO FARAH, STEVE OVETT STILL OWNS THE UK 2 MILE RECORD FROM 1978 SAYS IT ALL!!!!! NOT EVEN DAVID MOORCROFT IN HIS WORLD RECORD SEASON (1982) COULD BEAT IT HAVING RUN 7,32,8 FOR 3000M 9 SECONDS FASTER THAN OVETTS 1977 TIME ,SAYS IT ALL !!!!!!! AND ONLY A FEW DAYS AFTER BECOMING 800M RECORD HOLDER AND BEATING HENRY RONO IN A SEASON WHICH SAW THE KENYAN RUN 4 WORLD RECORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! INCREDIBLE, 0VETT AND COE !!!!!!!! PETER COE AND HARRY WILSON MUST HAVE BEEN SO FRIGGIN PROUD,!!!!!!! WE NEED THOSE DAYS TO HAPPEN AGAIN,,,,,I DUNNO IF MY NERVES COULD TAKE IT,,,,,I DON'T KNOW ABOUT EVERYONE ELSE BUT SEEING OVETT EQUAL SEBS 1500M RECORD WAVING TO THE OSLO STADIUM FANS A WEEK BEFORE MOSCOW LEFT ME IN NERVOUS BREAKDOWN MODE,,,,NO WONDER SEB FELT LIKE A RABBIT CAUGHT IN THE GLARE OF THE CAR LIGHTS COMING AT EM, LIKE A SNAKE THAT HYPMOTIZES IT'S PREY INTO TOTAL BLUNDERING,BLUBBERING IMPOTENCE!!!!!!!THEN PROCEEDS TO RUN THE 2ND LAP IN MOSCOW SO FAST THAT EXACTLY 40 YEAR'S LATER IS STILL!!!!!!!!!!!! THE FASTEST EVER IN ANY INTERNATIONAL 800M!!!!!!!!! MOSCOW WAS THE GREATEST _AND HAD OVETT NOT HAD BREATHING PROBLEMS IN 1984,,,,,, ABASCAL WOULD DEFINITELY HAD HAVE TO SETTLE FOR 4TH !!!!!!! HALCYON DAYS INDEED!!!!!!!!!!!
Coe was clean. I say this because he was a once in a generation athlete that had the talent, the genetics and an enormous capacity for preparation. rarely do you hear about an athlete that does intervals on road 4 - 6 x 800m - 1.51- 1.52 with one minute recovery between each. His running action was studied by human movement students around the world. He had the fast twitch of muscle fibres akin to a sprinter, and like what was said earlier, his body broke down from the intensity. not to mention, His father was his coach. Peter has a strong sense of fairness and doing the right thing- my verdict is clean as a whistle. Same cannot be said (pardon the pun) for SA or HEG
I concur! He actually came 3rd in the 60yds at the schools county Championships in Warwickshire, as an 11 year old. He also won the long jump in the Stratford (large town in England) schools championships that year. So, despite being v small for his age, he clearly possessed basic natural speed, which remained untapped until he went to Loughborough in 77 and worked on core strength. From 11 to 20 he ran lots of X-Country and started at 3000m. By the time he emerged as an 800 runner in the late 70's, he had an almost unique combination of years of endurance and natural fast twitch fibres. No doubt Coe was clean, just a freak of nature.
@deano27671 I also noticed one point you brought up on another recent thread. About milers secondary event usually being the 800, then in the EPO era they all seemed to lack that 800 speed yet had exceptional endurance. While I think you may have a point, sprinters like Jones and White were on EPO because they said it helped them recover super quickly from heavy training. EPO doesn't help your speed, so maybe the milers didn't do much speed training and instead did lots of endurance work? Cheers
@deano27671 No way El G was 3 seconds faster than Coe or Cram despite having significantly slower leg speed. My guess is that the EPO and hGH he (and many others) were on wouldn't kick in at 800m but probably later on in the race. I think that the era of milers like the british trio was probably the last of the clean or somewhat clean era of miling.
@7agneskickingbird7 Yes, he is Kenyan. He's a doctor (from his real name he sounds of possible Indian descent) who was brought up in Kenya. He does not like Coe as he sees him as a threat to the Kenyan dominance of 800m.
I totally agree. I have a very difficult time believing any of the records from 1500 to 10k were all achieved through "natural talent" alone. The clincher for me is that none of the current crop of top athletes have come remotely near those times since the new EPO test (the previous one from 2000 was useless) came out in 2006. 3:29 (3 secs + from WR) hasn't been broken, 3:46 (3.0+) for Mile, 4:50 (6.0+) for 2k, 7:25 for 3k (5.0 sec), &12:48 (11.0+) for 5k.
@deano27671 I wonder how he would've done had he been in that 2 mile. I strongly believe he would not have won, but might have posted something like 8:20 In his 81 or 84 form he might have done some damage.
Oct 78, Coe beat Coghlan (13:26 5k that summer) & McLeod (13:25) in a 4 mile race in Ireland running 17:54, which is equivalent to 13:50 5k pace for another mile. He also broke Foster's (the previous 2 Mile record holder at 8:14) course record by 11 secs. Foster had run that in 77 when he'd been a 13:21 runner on the track. Coe's endurance was heavily underestimated. An 800m man who could beat 13:20 runners over 4 mi was certainly capable of close to 7:40 for 3k & would have been a danger.
@7agneskickingbird7 Thanks for messaging me. I find Ryun a fascinating figure, a decade or more ahead of his time. I just wish there was more video footage of some of his exploits, as some of his alleged splits seem unbelievable! Did you actually see his 36.7-36.9 in person!? Wow! If you saw it on video, I'd love to see it. Have to say I find 36.4 in a 3:38 almost impossible, although a 37 flat would be more believable.
I thought maybe Morceli's 3:28.86 in 92 was legit and perhaps just before EPO came into common use, but wasn't so sure about his 3:27.37 three years later. Maybe you're right about him too!
@7agneskickingbird7 I never knew he suffered from anaemia in 97! That's very interesting. I have no doubt that the majority of the 1500 (and distance runners) were on EPO from the mid 90's to 2004. I mean we had EL G, Ngeny, Lagat, Cacho, Baala, Komen, etc all running faster times than any one athlete has managed for the past 5 seasons! Cacho & Baala are nowhere near as talented as Ovett, Cram or Coe.
Moreover, if you're going to include bi-annual world titles into the equation of an athlete's greatness, then competitions like Europa & World Cup, plus Commonwealth must also be given equal weight for those athletes at their peak prior to 1991. Back to Ryun. He had a 3 year window (66-68) where he was at the very top of the ranking lists, and even in 68 he was below what he had been, but still good enough for Olympic silver.
@deano27671 I would have to say that Coe was clean. There were steroids that could've helped him recover from those hellacious sessions quickly, but the fact that he was constantly sick or injured and it took him a while to recover make me lean towards him being clean. Contrary to someone like El G who was never injured or sick and able to run sub 3:28 any day of the week. Again I would have to say that Coe was clean, but there is no athlete I would say for 100% certainty is clean or dirty.
@deano27671 Anemia can be caused by repeated EPO injections that aren't done quite correctly. El G, Cacho, Geb and Bekele had/have excellent medical support, Morceli trained alone with just his brother and didn't have the full backup. I used to think that the real 1500m champ in 2000 was 5th place Kevin Sullivan (probably just my Canadian bias) but now I'm not so sure as he finished ahead of several dirty athletes and ran his best times in a pretty dirty era.
@deano27671 I would still rank him the 4th or 5th best mid d man ever, but I feel that had he had more international comps to compete in, like Elliott and Snell, his resume would be more impressive. But we have to go with his actual resume. Coe and Snell are the two clear leaders, then Ovett, Cram, Ryun and Elliott follow. Cheers Alex
He also had to slow slightly at bell when Cheshire ran in front and slowed it down, causing Coe to run wide to get round him on the bend. He believes that cost him up to half a second and the then world record. I'd say if Coe in 81 (or possibly late 84) had even pacing on the Rieti track to the bell (a la what EL G often had) with say 55.5, 55.5 (1:51.0), 56.0 (2:47.0) and someone like Cram or Ovett on his shoulder with 300m to go, he could have run just under 3:28.0.
@7agneskickingbird7 I wouldn't say he'd have won, but I think he'd have been a lot closer than you think. Although a WR at the time, 8:13 is only worth around 7:40 for 3000m. Coe only ran in pretty slow tactical races indoors over 3k, and a 7:54 pb on the tight wooden boards of Cosford must have been worth 7:48 on a synthetic 400 track, and that was in March.
@7agneskickingbird7 Hi Alex! To be honest, I really don't know! I wouldn't have thought Snell did, but I'm a bit more suspicious of US athletes going through the collegiate system in the 60's. If there was going to be experimentation with such things at that time, I'd say it's more likely to have been there.
@7agneskickingbird7 Ventolin is clearly a creature of the 60's and would have everyone believe that all the athletes from that era were the best ever and capable of equalling or bettering today's standards. WR's are moving targets, so an athlete is conditioned to beat whatever the standard is in their era. From what Ryun DID, I'd say he was capable of something around 3:30 and 3:46 on synthetic tracks. Transfer his talent to today, and that would probably be faster. 3:24 is utter nonsense.
@deano27671 Ventolin takes off up to 9 seconds off Ryuns 1500 and mile times and up to 4 seconds off his 800 but only knocks a couple of tenths off Coe's 800, 1000 and 1500. That Stockholm run in 81 I'm guessing was probably around 3:28.5 if everything went alright. Put him on the Rieti track or the one in Brussels with his own army of rabbits and sub 1:41 and 3:28 would probably be a reality. For Ryun I think 1:42.5, 3:29.0 and 3:45-46 are more reasonable. Certainly not high 1:40
@deano Ventolin's problem is that he's a complete maniac. We all know the nonsense about Ryun's 3:33.1 equaling ~3:28.2. By Ventolin's calculation method, I should hold the 800WR. Back to Coe here, this was a very nice run. CP was a notoriously slow track and not many have beaten 1:44.0 here. It was clear by this point to Ovett, after being wrung out in the Euro 800, that he didn't want to race Coe again over 800.
Nooooooo overt didn't beat coe,,,COE BEAT COE !!!!!! HE literally gave ovett the gold medal before the gun had fired,,,COE ANGRY??? Huh,,,he didn't hand ovett the gold a few days later i I can Tell you !!!!!!!! 12'1 LAST 1OOM AFTER A STRENGTH SAPPING 54 THIRD LAP,,,,NUFF SAID!!!!!!!
This isn't as long as Snell (60-64), competing before him, or Coe (79-86) or Ovett (77-83), despite the fact Ryun was still competing until 1972. Having said all this, IMO, Ryun achieved enough in those 2 brilliant seasons of 66 & 67 to warrant 4th on the all time list of great m-distance athletes. He can't be above Coe, Snell or Ovett because he, unlike them, didn't win an Olympic gold.
I just think it's rich when certain Ryun fans on LetsRun (I think you know who I mean?) make claims that 80's athletes were dirty, even though UK athletes were randomly tested from the early 80s and there was automatic testing in major champs and for WR performances, while no one brings up the fact that steroids were around in the 60's and they weren't even tested for! That generation of athletes are deemed "beyond reproach" for some reason. There are a lot of hypocrites out there.
The point you made about Ryun only competing in the Olym is a valid one & the reason why I mainly look at Olym performance & WR when comparing athletes from different eras. E.g. People cite the fact Kipketer won 3 World titles to make him the GOAT at 800m. This is unfair, as neither Coe nor Snell had the opportunity to run in bi-annual World Championships. In terms of their 800 record in the Olympics, Snell comes out on top with 2 gold, then Coe (2 silvers) & finally Kip with silver & bronze.
@deano27671 Do you think Mo Farah and Galen Rupp are on something? They've both made pretty good improvements, but Salazar is known to use substances in the "grey area", so I don't know. There is no doubt in my mind now that Bekele is doping. Injured for a year and a half, drops out at worlds at a slow pace, comes back three weeks later and pops a 26:43 with a 56 last lap. That recovery just seems to good. That and the fact that he is managed by Jos Hermens. Cheers Deano/Epopians!
@7agneskickingbird7 I hear what you're saying, but he went a lot further than saying drugs are bad and that athletes should be punished if caught in an interview. Almost all athletes asked those sort of questions would say that. He actually addressed an IOC congress and called for much harsher penalties than were then in place. He called for a "life ban" in 1981.
@7agneskickingbird7 I have got a lot of his races, most in fact, with a lot on here. Most of the others I have are races on here by other posters. Unfortunately the 11.3 last 100m in the 81 Europa Cup semi I don't have! It's one I'm still on the lookout for. I do have his 11.9/24.1 finish in the 79 Europa Cup final 800m and his 11.9 last 100m in the 81 Europa Cup final. The 12.0/24.7 last 100/200 in the World Cup 800 final of 81 is on here. Let me know of any others.
@deano27671 Sorry, just a quick question. Is Ventolin Kenyan? He always defends Kenyan athletes (I don't think they're all dirty) and other African athletes like his life depends on it. I got into an argument with him once telling him that Ngney and Komen were jacked to the limit and all I got back was, well, you know. Wondering if you know what nationality he is. Cheers buddy
@7agneskickingbird7 I hear what you are saying, but in actuality Ryun competed in 3 Olympics, more than Coe, who was only at 2. Ryun was an international from 64 to 72, so he did have a fairly lengthy career. It's also worth noting that there was no money in the sport when Ovett & Coe started running for their country in the mid 70's. It was only in 82 that athletes received trust funds.
@deano27671 I saw the race on the tape "Jim Ryun: America's Greatest Miler", about a year ago. Had the last 450m. I had his last lap at about 50.6-50.8, the last 300 was a little hard to time, but somewhere in the ballpark of 36.7-37.2 (bit of discrepancy!) The supposed 11.6 down the backstretch was more around 11.9-12 flat when I timed it. If I ever come across the tape again i'll definately upload it. I think workouts like 40x400m,18x800m and 20x400m in 62 at 17 shortened his later career.
Moreover, UK athletes were subject to random out of competition testing from 81 & random out of season testing from 85, 4 years before the IAAF introduced similar world wide testing procedures. Coe hasn't just started calling for lifetime bans. He (along with ED Moses) was the first athlete to address the IOC congress in Baden Baden in Sept 81, calling for lifetime bans for any competitor caught taking drugs.
@deano27671 Despite being a big fan of Ryun, Ventolin's 3:24 he gives him is just silly. Mid 3:28 maybe. He says in his book "In Quest of Gold", after a couple of workouts before the 72 Olympics he and his coach felt that he was in shape to run a 3:45-46 mile. Your right, calling for lifetime bans while at the height of your career is enough to convince me. I just lol'ed pretty hard when I found out that El G's red ribbon he wore was to make a statment against EPO and hGH.
@deano27671 I hope you don't think I was criticizing Coe's endurance at all. Not so. I just think that he wouldn't have won that 2 mile. I am well aware of some of the longer races he ran on road, one of which I think was a 7.5 km one at something like 13:46ish pace. I have no doubt that had he been in his 81 or 84 form he would've been right with Rono and Ovett with 200m to go and would probably outkick them in the home straight.
@deano27671 Hey! On a recent letsrun thread about El G being capable of under 3:25 at the 99 world champs, I noticed you mentioned that you could add about 2-3 seconds to a couple of athletes times to see what they were clean. I would personally add a few more seconds. You get a benefit taking EPO without even training and with training you can recover fast after grueling workouts. Maybe 4-5 seconds but that might just be me. I think El G was a 3:30-31 guy clean and Morceli probably 3:32.
Ventolin's problem is he is far too generous with conversion from cinders to synthetic. I've had this conversation with Mel Watman & Peter Matthews, both statisticians (compile World ranking lists) & were there in the 60's watching Ryun. They say that on a wet day at White City (London) a long distance race of 5000/10000m might be affected by 1.0 sec per lap, but that a place like California on a warm sunny day with freshly laid cinders, a 1500m may only be affected by no more than 0.5 per lap.
Thank you for the encouragement. One question though. I will be running my first ever 5000m on June 4th and my university coach is big on us doing tons of 400's (20+). Would doing a lot of 400's help for a 5000 or would 800's and 1000's be more beneficial. Appreciate any advice, Thanks, Alex
@7agneskickingbird7 Not at all. Your scenario is probably the most plausible, but I think Coe's over distance ability was as good as Ovett's. Ovett may have been a bit too wily for Coe in such a race, but after Prague Coe seemed to hit some very good form and would have been out for revenge. Ovett probably still wins that night, but it would have been close.
Are you ukathleticscoach on letsrun? I think some steroids could help one recover from tough workouts faster but peds like hgh and epo/cera do it better. While training at altitude can definately help an individual, I think that some athletes that are from altitude have used epo and whatnot. I have an incredibly tough time believing that 12:37 and 26:17 were done totally naturally. If I'm not mistaken, I also believe that some Moroccan and Spanish athletes have trained at altitude. Cheers
@deano27671 I don't think that all 80's athletes were dirty. I think the British trio were clean, but won't say for certain. I know Ventolin thinks Coe blood doped, but athletes that were blood doping then were from countries that pretty much institutionalized that practice, Finland Italy etc, so I think it's unlikely concerning Coe. I'm pretty sure that steroids weren't around though in high schools back in 64 or 65. I'd like to think that Ryun was clean, but now you've got me thinking:-)
BTW some good times you got there kicking bird. Keep up the training, off 53 you can run 1:53/4 and sub 4 1500m and are young enough to then impove again on those times. Keep up the running and good luck!
.. while the long distance champions and WR have not failed tests. While that continues we can at least hope they are clean. Last example look at Bedford running 27:30 if he were around today he would at least be running 27:00. Over 400m he is 45 secs down on the top EA's. Providing you have a light build you are carrying that speed advantage on every lap multiplied. eg Bedford 54 KB 49 who is going to feel easier at 60 sec laps. Or take Coe/Ovett against Walker over 400m same thing. Cheers
That's me. Most top athletes train at altitude but its hard to subsitute being born there. A lot of people say its genetetics with East African but I don't think ths is the case as ones with their countrymen with same genes but born away from rift valley. Mor/SPA ahtletes do train at altitude but how long do they spend there? Check the iaaf wiki doping list virtually no Ethiopians of course some would get lucky on tests but not all. Some Kenyans have been done but lower level ones. On 12:37..
@deano27671 While I agree with you, I wouldn't use Coe calling for lifetime bans and being fervently anti drugs as evidence that he was clean. There have been athletes that were dirty that were outspoken against drugs like Marion Jones, Carl Lewis, El G, Lance Armstrong etc. I still think he was clean, and would be surprised if it was found that he was doping. But like I said earlier, there is not a single athlete I will say for 100% certainty to be clean or dirty. Even my all time fav Jim Ryun.
@deano27671 On a very recent thread on Letsrun about Ryun being the best middle d man in history, I noticed that when you were comparing Ryun to others, you compared each athletes longevity. I agreed with everything else, but I think that Coe or Ovett would not have had long careers had they been competing in the 60's in the U.S where you made $0 for running. That and the fact that others at the time like Snell and Elliott had Commonwealths to compete in. Ryun only had the Olympics to compete in
He also carried out the research in his role as Vice President of the Sports Council, and published a document (with Lord Moynihan) in 1985, calling for a ban on blood doping in sport. His findings were taken up by the IAAF and implemented in 1986. So, you see that Coe has always been fervently anti- drugs and there is not an ounce of evidence to suggest that he ever used.
Well firstly a coach who knows you is going to give better advise than any person remotely. Next all workouts will improve you running. If you are doing 400m's for 5km you need short recoveries. I would say longer reps are better for 5km pace, but as an example you could start on 20 x 400m off 90 sec then over time progress to 10 x 800m off 2 mins then once ready 5 x 1000m off 2:30. Now if your coach had you doing just 10 x 400m you might question it (unless for mile pace training) ....
Steroids don't do much for a male distance running. Blood doping has a limited effect its very hard to trace so there would be no point using EPO if it were that good. Either can be replaced by being born at or training for years at altitude which is why those athletes from lower countries get done more
Of course there are those that will argue that the drop in times is due to inadequate pacemaking, but I think that the athletes today know that they can't split 1:50 in a 1500m and continue on. Or if you are talking to Renato Canova he will tell you that every middle distance wr is clean and say you are talking about things you know nothing about. I personally think he is either naive to the max or is lying through his teeth and knows the records are dirty but wants to make the sport look clean.
Ah, the good old days, when you could dope up on cocktails of performance enhancing drugs that were undetectable. Lucky Lord Coe a man so obviously off his face, I remember one post race interview and his pupils were the size of saucers and he was dribbling, high as a kite! Now he wants life bans for anyone caught taking drugs and he's the most outspoken person in UK athletics about drug taking 'The Lady doth protest too much'.
but if you do 20 x 400m or 5 x 1000m now its not going to make a big (if any!) difference. If you train hard with a good group that matters more than the specifics of individual workouts. So trust your coach as it looks like your times are progressing. In the race take it easy in the early stages as the pace will feel slow for you. Better to do a reasonable race than blow up. Then you have set a marker for your next one. Over distance race will do you good as a middle distance guy. Good luck
The chance of being caught if he were doping, however slight, would surely not be worth taking having put his neck on the line, especially if he had political aspirations. It would only take one witness or a positive test to totally ruin both his athletic career and any future political one. Moreover, it wasn't just rhetoric, he actually instigated the passing of legislation against blood doping within the IOC and IAAF while still competing. He actually put his money where his mouth was.
look at Dave Moocroft 30 years ago. No pacemaker, slower track, not born at altitude- maybe a few wks training here and there, training also moved on slightly. EPO is more about increasing your O2 uptake than recovery. Steroids help women more because thay lack strength and brother beats sister may help guys a bit but bulk is slowing. They need to change the ban to 4 yrs min. in all sports by the way its a joke at the moment. Look at all the WR & champion sprinters busted ....
@Whatsitallabaaat Clearly you are ignorant of athletics from that time. Coe was the most tested athlete (over 200 times) of the 80's. What were all these "undetectable" drugs? The only undetectable one in recent times is EPO, which wasn't available before the mid 90's. Steroids were detectable and he would have been tested for them at every major Champs & after every world record performance.
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@deano27671 Happen to have Coe's 1:42.33. Only seen bits and pieces of it from Born to Run. Wasn't the third 200 in something like mid 24? Amazing that he could accelerate like after after a 50.5-.6 opening lap. The penultimate 200 in my 800's are usually the slowest for me, then I can pick it up a bit for the last 200.
Cheers Deano!
So, he was stuck with the 800. That would have been a fascinating match up, as 2 days later Coe also beat Rono convincingly over 1 mile, and a month after that he beat Coghlan, Mcloud and Foster's record by 9 secs in a 4 mile road race in 17:54. The first signs of what was to come the following summer!
@7agneskickingbird7 - I have always believed Bekele was using EPO. I have heard lots of things about Hermens which fail to reassure me his athletes are clean. I don't know a great deal about Salazar's set up in Oregon, but I believe Farah is dedicated and hasn't made the most of his talent in the past. I'd like to think he's genuine at this stage, as is Rupp. The WR for 10k should be in the 26:45 - 27:00 region by now. 26:17 is just plain silly!
@deano27671 You may have a point about Morceli. Before 93 he didn't seem nearly as dominant and I remember watching some footage of the race on a CBC sports year in review and he actually looked knackered after he crossed the line whereas in his 3:27 he was all jolly faced. I have no doubt that the anemia he had in 97 was a direct result of EPO.
Of all the past 1500/Mile wr holders El G and Morceli were the closest to reaching their limits. Coe who rarely raced the mile certainly didn't.
@ARRISIPPY I've got the earlier UK record from Brussels 78, which is of a slightly better quality. I'll work on that one next. I've also just uploaded Ovett's 74 European 800 silver (last 200m) and European Cup 1500 gold (last 450m) from 1977. Glad u liked it.
@7agneskickingbird7 Cheers for that info. I don't doubt that you're right! I think EL G was a great athlete, but there is no way he was 3 secs better than the likes of Coe, Cram & Aouita. I think Coe had the potential of running 3:27.5-3:28.2 at absolute best with perfect pace and conditions. He simply never got these conditions & didn't run enough big 1500s on a circuit which wasn't like that of the late 90's.
@7agneskickingbird7 I concur. It just doesn't compute that an athlete (Lagat) can run a 3:26 for 1500m but is unable to break 1:46 for 800m despite many races at the the distance on the circuit. Even Scott & Walker could run 1:45 & they were 5 or 6 seconds slower over 1500m!! The fact that EL G NEVER contested 800m at all in any European race, which almost all great 1500 runners have done, even for just speed work, only makes me more suspicious. That 1:42 TT was a pure myth to detract from this.
@7agneskickingbird7 Hi mate!
Yes I have Coe's 1:42.33. I'll download it on here the week after next, when I'm off work. His 3rd 200m was 24.8!
@cegtown Not sure what you mean!?
His final time here was 1:43.97, beating Ovett's UKR of 1:44.09
@7agneskickingbird7 I think you're pretty much spot on for both athletes. I think when Coe's Stockholm run was "evened out" for economic pacing (went to 3:30.6) and lack of drafting (had none from 200m to end, but only taken up to the bell) we get 3:28.3. His Rieti run in 86, when just past his absolute best, of 3:29.7 (54.0, 58.0, 56.1, 41.6) also works out at 3:28.3 when evened out for economic pacing and lack of drafting on the 2nd lap.
@deano27671 Do you have any more videos? Like Coe's 11.3 last 100 at the
Europa?? cup semi. That has to be one of the best kicks ever along with Ryun's apparent 36.4 last 300 in 67. More like 36.7-36.9 when I saw it one time. Coe and Ryun are my two favorite middle distance runners, I would rate Coe as the best ever and Ryun about 5th behind Snell, Ovett and Cram. Cheers Deano!
@KingLiopleurodon Hi! Thanks for the words of support re Ventolin. LOL. He is truly infuriating and best ignored really. I fear that others on there believe the crap he spouts if he says it often enough.
Yeah, I think Coe got into some very good form late in 78, after a couple of spells of injury mid summer. Interestingly, he tried to get to run in that epic 2 mile run at the same meet, according to his bio, but either Andy Norman or Ovett kept him out of the race.
the famous Coe purple shirt or is it aubergine , cram had the jarrow gold and ovett had the russian red. incredible stuff all these downloads from you and arrisisipy. keep em coming.
W0W!!!!! This actually turned out to be sebs fastest ever 800m on British soil, way back in 1978!!!!!!!! Ovett could have run 1500m in 3,31,in 1977 and seb was closing in on Alberto,s world record!!!! 1979 !!!!! WHAT A FANTASTIC YEAR,,,THANKS SO MUCH FOR THESE MEMORIES DEANO,ESPECIALLY IN TIMES LIKE THESE,,,, REMINDS ME OF THAT OLD SONG,"IF I COULD TURN BACK TIME!!!!!! SEBS 800 AND ESPECIALLY HIS KILOMETRE WILL BE UK RECORDS FOR ANOTHER 40 YEARS,,,AT LEAST,,,,,,,THAT IS TRULY PHENOMENAL,,,, THE FACT THAT APART FROM MO FARAH, STEVE OVETT STILL OWNS THE UK 2 MILE RECORD FROM 1978 SAYS IT ALL!!!!! NOT EVEN DAVID MOORCROFT IN HIS WORLD RECORD SEASON (1982) COULD BEAT IT HAVING RUN 7,32,8 FOR 3000M 9 SECONDS FASTER THAN OVETTS 1977 TIME ,SAYS IT ALL !!!!!!! AND ONLY A FEW DAYS AFTER BECOMING 800M RECORD HOLDER AND BEATING HENRY RONO IN A SEASON WHICH SAW THE KENYAN RUN 4 WORLD RECORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! INCREDIBLE, 0VETT AND COE !!!!!!!! PETER COE AND HARRY WILSON MUST HAVE BEEN SO FRIGGIN PROUD,!!!!!!! WE NEED THOSE DAYS TO HAPPEN AGAIN,,,,,I DUNNO IF MY NERVES COULD TAKE IT,,,,,I DON'T KNOW ABOUT EVERYONE ELSE BUT SEEING OVETT EQUAL SEBS 1500M RECORD WAVING TO THE OSLO STADIUM FANS A WEEK BEFORE MOSCOW LEFT ME IN NERVOUS BREAKDOWN MODE,,,,NO WONDER SEB FELT LIKE A RABBIT CAUGHT IN THE GLARE OF THE CAR LIGHTS COMING AT EM, LIKE A SNAKE THAT HYPMOTIZES IT'S PREY INTO TOTAL BLUNDERING,BLUBBERING IMPOTENCE!!!!!!!THEN PROCEEDS TO RUN THE 2ND LAP IN MOSCOW SO FAST THAT EXACTLY 40 YEAR'S LATER IS STILL!!!!!!!!!!!! THE FASTEST EVER IN ANY INTERNATIONAL 800M!!!!!!!!! MOSCOW WAS THE GREATEST _AND HAD OVETT NOT HAD BREATHING PROBLEMS IN 1984,,,,,, ABASCAL WOULD DEFINITELY HAD HAVE TO SETTLE FOR 4TH !!!!!!! HALCYON DAYS INDEED!!!!!!!!!!!
Coe was clean. I say this because he was a once in a generation athlete that had the talent, the genetics and an enormous capacity for preparation. rarely do you hear about an athlete that does intervals on road 4 - 6 x 800m - 1.51- 1.52 with one minute recovery between each. His running action was studied by human movement students around the world. He had the fast twitch of muscle fibres akin to a sprinter, and like what was said earlier, his body broke down from the intensity. not to mention, His father was his coach. Peter has a strong sense of fairness and doing the right thing- my verdict is clean as a whistle. Same cannot be said (pardon the pun) for SA or HEG
I concur! He actually came 3rd in the 60yds at the schools county Championships in Warwickshire, as an 11 year old. He also won the long jump in the Stratford (large town in England) schools championships that year. So, despite being v small for his age, he clearly possessed basic natural speed, which remained untapped until he went to Loughborough in 77 and worked on core strength. From 11 to 20 he ran lots of X-Country and started at 3000m. By the time he emerged as an 800 runner in the late 70's, he had an almost unique combination of years of endurance and natural fast twitch fibres. No doubt Coe was clean, just a freak of nature.
@deano27671 I also noticed one point you brought up on another recent thread. About milers secondary event usually being the 800, then in the EPO era they all seemed to lack that 800 speed yet had exceptional endurance. While I think you may have a point, sprinters like Jones and White were on EPO because they said it helped them recover super quickly from heavy training. EPO doesn't help your speed, so maybe the milers didn't do much speed training and instead did lots of endurance work? Cheers
@deano27671 No way El G was 3 seconds faster than Coe or Cram despite having significantly slower leg speed. My guess is that the EPO and hGH he (and many others) were on wouldn't kick in at 800m but probably later on in the race. I think that the era of milers like the british trio was probably the last of the clean or somewhat clean era of miling.
@7agneskickingbird7 Yes, he is Kenyan. He's a doctor (from his real name he sounds of possible Indian descent) who was brought up in Kenya. He does not like Coe as he sees him as a threat to the Kenyan dominance of 800m.
I totally agree. I have a very difficult time believing any of the records from 1500 to 10k were all achieved through "natural talent" alone. The clincher for me is that none of the current crop of top athletes have come remotely near those times since the new EPO test (the previous one from 2000 was useless) came out in 2006. 3:29 (3 secs + from WR) hasn't been broken, 3:46 (3.0+) for Mile, 4:50 (6.0+) for 2k, 7:25 for 3k (5.0 sec), &12:48 (11.0+) for 5k.
@deano27671 I wonder how he would've done had he been in that 2 mile. I strongly believe he would not have won, but might have posted something like 8:20 In his 81 or 84 form he might have done some damage.
Oct 78, Coe beat Coghlan (13:26 5k that summer) & McLeod (13:25) in a 4 mile race in Ireland running 17:54, which is equivalent to 13:50 5k pace for another mile. He also broke Foster's (the previous 2 Mile record holder at 8:14) course record by 11 secs. Foster had run that in 77 when he'd been a 13:21 runner on the track. Coe's endurance was heavily underestimated. An 800m man who could beat 13:20 runners over 4 mi was certainly capable of close to 7:40 for 3k & would have been a danger.
@7agneskickingbird7 Thanks for messaging me. I find Ryun a fascinating figure, a decade or more ahead of his time. I just wish there was more video footage of some of his exploits, as some of his alleged splits seem unbelievable! Did you actually see his 36.7-36.9 in person!? Wow! If you saw it on video, I'd love to see it. Have to say I find 36.4 in a 3:38 almost impossible, although a 37 flat would be more believable.
I thought maybe Morceli's 3:28.86 in 92 was legit and perhaps just before EPO came into common use, but wasn't so sure about his 3:27.37 three years later. Maybe you're right about him too!
@7agneskickingbird7 I never knew he suffered from anaemia in 97! That's very interesting. I have no doubt that the majority of the 1500 (and distance runners) were on EPO from the mid 90's to 2004. I mean we had EL G, Ngeny, Lagat, Cacho, Baala, Komen, etc all running faster times than any one athlete has managed for the past 5 seasons! Cacho & Baala are nowhere near as talented as Ovett, Cram or Coe.
Moreover, if you're going to include bi-annual world titles into the equation of an athlete's greatness, then competitions like Europa & World Cup, plus Commonwealth must also be given equal weight for those athletes at their peak prior to 1991. Back to Ryun. He had a 3 year window (66-68) where he was at the very top of the ranking lists, and even in 68 he was below what he had been, but still good enough for Olympic silver.
@deano27671 I would have to say that Coe was clean. There were steroids that could've helped him recover from those hellacious sessions quickly, but the fact that he was constantly sick or injured and it took him a while to recover make me lean towards him being clean. Contrary to someone like El G who was never injured or sick and able to run sub 3:28 any day of the week. Again I would have to say that Coe was clean, but there is no athlete I would say for 100% certainty is clean or dirty.
@deano27671 Anemia can be caused by repeated EPO injections that aren't done quite correctly. El G, Cacho, Geb and Bekele had/have excellent medical support, Morceli trained alone with just his brother and didn't have the full backup.
I used to think that the real 1500m champ in 2000 was 5th place Kevin Sullivan (probably just my Canadian bias) but now I'm not so sure as he finished ahead of several dirty athletes and ran his best times in a pretty dirty era.
@deano27671 I would still rank him the 4th or 5th best mid d man ever, but I feel that had he had more international comps to compete in, like Elliott and Snell, his resume would be more impressive. But we have to go with his actual resume. Coe and Snell are the two clear leaders, then Ovett, Cram, Ryun and Elliott follow.
Cheers
Alex
He also had to slow slightly at bell when Cheshire ran in front and slowed it down, causing Coe to run wide to get round him on the bend. He believes that cost him up to half a second and the then world record. I'd say if Coe in 81 (or possibly late 84) had even pacing on the Rieti track to the bell (a la what EL G often had) with say 55.5, 55.5 (1:51.0), 56.0 (2:47.0) and someone like Cram or Ovett on his shoulder with 300m to go, he could have run just under 3:28.0.
DEFINITELY
@7agneskickingbird7 I wouldn't say he'd have won, but I think he'd have been a lot closer than you think. Although a WR at the time, 8:13 is only worth around 7:40 for 3000m. Coe only ran in pretty slow tactical races indoors over 3k, and a 7:54 pb on the tight wooden boards of Cosford must have been worth 7:48 on a synthetic 400 track, and that was in March.
@7agneskickingbird7 Hi Alex! To be honest, I really don't know! I wouldn't have thought Snell did, but I'm a bit more suspicious of US athletes going through the collegiate system in the 60's. If there was going to be experimentation with such things at that time, I'd say it's more likely to have been there.
@7agneskickingbird7 Ventolin is clearly a creature of the 60's and would have everyone believe that all the athletes from that era were the best ever and capable of equalling or bettering today's standards. WR's are moving targets, so an athlete is conditioned to beat whatever the standard is in their era. From what Ryun DID, I'd say he was capable of something around 3:30 and 3:46 on synthetic tracks. Transfer his talent to today, and that would probably be faster. 3:24 is utter nonsense.
@deano27671 Ventolin takes off up to 9 seconds off Ryuns 1500 and mile times and up to 4 seconds off his 800 but only knocks a couple of tenths off Coe's 800, 1000 and 1500. That Stockholm run in 81 I'm guessing was probably around 3:28.5 if everything went alright. Put him on the Rieti track or the one in Brussels with his own army of rabbits and sub 1:41 and 3:28 would probably be a reality. For Ryun I think 1:42.5, 3:29.0 and 3:45-46 are more reasonable. Certainly not high 1:40
@deano Ventolin's problem is that he's a complete maniac. We all know the nonsense about Ryun's 3:33.1 equaling ~3:28.2. By Ventolin's calculation method, I should hold the 800WR. Back to Coe here, this was a very nice run. CP was a notoriously slow track and not many have beaten 1:44.0 here. It was clear by this point to Ovett, after being wrung out in the Euro 800, that he didn't want to race Coe again over 800.
Because when he did OVETT kicked COE s teeth in,in the Moscow 800 !!!!l!lll
Nooooooo overt didn't beat coe,,,COE BEAT COE !!!!!! HE literally gave ovett the gold medal before the gun had fired,,,COE ANGRY??? Huh,,,he didn't hand ovett the gold a few days later i I can Tell you !!!!!!!! 12'1 LAST 1OOM AFTER A STRENGTH SAPPING 54 THIRD LAP,,,,NUFF SAID!!!!!!!
This isn't as long as Snell (60-64), competing before him, or Coe (79-86) or Ovett (77-83), despite the fact Ryun was still competing until 1972. Having said all this, IMO, Ryun achieved enough in those 2 brilliant seasons of 66 & 67 to warrant 4th on the all time list of great m-distance athletes. He can't be above Coe, Snell or Ovett because he, unlike them, didn't win an Olympic gold.
I just think it's rich when certain Ryun fans on LetsRun (I think you know who I mean?) make claims that 80's athletes were dirty, even though UK athletes were randomly tested from the early 80s and there was automatic testing in major champs and for WR performances, while no one brings up the fact that steroids were around in the 60's and they weren't even tested for! That generation of athletes are deemed "beyond reproach" for some reason. There are a lot of hypocrites out there.
The point you made about Ryun only competing in the Olym is a valid one & the reason why I mainly look at Olym performance & WR when comparing athletes from different eras. E.g. People cite the fact Kipketer won 3 World titles to make him the GOAT at 800m. This is unfair, as neither Coe nor Snell had the opportunity to run in bi-annual World Championships. In terms of their 800 record in the Olympics, Snell comes out on top with 2 gold, then Coe (2 silvers) & finally Kip with silver & bronze.
@deano27671 Do you think Mo Farah and Galen Rupp are on something? They've both made pretty good improvements, but Salazar is known to use substances in the "grey area", so I don't know.
There is no doubt in my mind now that Bekele is doping. Injured for a year and a half, drops out at worlds at a slow pace, comes back three weeks later and pops a 26:43 with a 56 last lap. That recovery just seems to good. That and the fact that he is managed by Jos Hermens.
Cheers Deano/Epopians!
@7agneskickingbird7 I hear what you're saying, but he went a lot further than saying drugs are bad and that athletes should be punished if caught in an interview. Almost all athletes asked those sort of questions would say that. He actually addressed an IOC congress and called for much harsher penalties than were then in place. He called for a "life ban" in 1981.
@7agneskickingbird7 I have got a lot of his races, most in fact, with a lot on here. Most of the others I have are races on here by other posters. Unfortunately the 11.3 last 100m in the 81 Europa Cup semi I don't have! It's one I'm still on the lookout for. I do have his 11.9/24.1 finish in the 79 Europa Cup final 800m and his 11.9 last 100m in the 81 Europa Cup final. The 12.0/24.7 last 100/200 in the World Cup 800 final of 81 is on here. Let me know of any others.
@deano27671 Sorry, just a quick question. Is Ventolin Kenyan? He always defends Kenyan athletes (I don't think they're all dirty) and other African athletes like his life depends on it. I got into an argument with him once telling him that Ngney and Komen were jacked to the limit and all I got back was, well, you know. Wondering if you know what nationality he is. Cheers buddy
@7agneskickingbird7 I hear what you are saying, but in actuality Ryun competed in 3 Olympics, more than Coe, who was only at 2. Ryun was an international from 64 to 72, so he did have a fairly lengthy career. It's also worth noting that there was no money in the sport when Ovett & Coe started running for their country in the mid 70's. It was only in 82 that athletes received trust funds.
David Jenkins said it was common for top runners to be given a bundle of 10 pound notes when appearing in big meets.
@deano27671 I saw the race on the tape "Jim Ryun: America's Greatest Miler", about a year ago. Had the last 450m. I had his last lap at about 50.6-50.8, the last 300 was a little hard to time, but somewhere in the ballpark of 36.7-37.2 (bit of discrepancy!) The supposed 11.6 down the backstretch was more around 11.9-12 flat when I timed it. If I ever come across the tape again i'll definately upload it. I think workouts like 40x400m,18x800m and 20x400m in 62 at 17 shortened his later career.
Moreover, UK athletes were subject to random out of competition testing from 81 & random out of season testing from 85, 4 years before the IAAF introduced similar world wide testing procedures. Coe hasn't just started calling for lifetime bans. He (along with ED Moses) was the first athlete to address the IOC congress in Baden Baden in Sept 81, calling for lifetime bans for any competitor caught taking drugs.
@deano27671 Despite being a big fan of Ryun, Ventolin's 3:24 he gives him is just silly.
Mid 3:28 maybe. He says in his book "In Quest of Gold", after a couple of workouts before the 72 Olympics he and his coach felt that he was in shape to run a 3:45-46 mile.
Your right, calling for lifetime bans while at the height of your career is enough to convince me. I just lol'ed pretty hard when I found out that El G's red ribbon he wore was to make a statment against EPO and hGH.
@deano27671 I hope you don't think I was criticizing Coe's endurance at all. Not so. I just think that he wouldn't have won that 2 mile. I am well aware of some of the longer races he ran on road, one of which I think was a 7.5 km one at something like 13:46ish pace. I have no doubt that had he been in his 81 or 84 form he would've been right with Rono and Ovett with 200m to go and would probably outkick them in the home straight.
@deano27671 Hey!
On a recent letsrun thread about El G being capable of under 3:25 at the 99 world champs, I noticed you mentioned that you could add about 2-3 seconds to a couple of athletes times to see what they were clean. I would personally add a few more seconds. You get a benefit taking EPO without even training and with training you can recover fast after grueling workouts. Maybe 4-5 seconds but that might just be me. I think El G was a 3:30-31 guy clean and Morceli probably 3:32.
@KingLiopleurodon I believe Ventolin thinks that Ryun's time was a 3:24! I feel that 3:29.0 is much more reasonable.
Ventolin's problem is he is far too generous with conversion from cinders to synthetic. I've had this conversation with Mel Watman & Peter Matthews, both statisticians (compile World ranking lists) & were there in the 60's watching Ryun. They say that on a wet day at White City (London) a long distance race of 5000/10000m might be affected by 1.0 sec per lap, but that a place like California on a warm sunny day with freshly laid cinders, a 1500m may only be affected by no more than 0.5 per lap.
Thank you for the encouragement. One question though. I will be running my first ever 5000m on June 4th and my university coach is big on us doing tons of 400's (20+). Would doing a lot of 400's help for a 5000 or would 800's and 1000's be more beneficial. Appreciate any advice,
Thanks,
Alex
@7agneskickingbird7 Wow!! I'd love to see or get hold of that video. Can yoy buy it from the US?
@deano27671 I actually didn't realize that steroids were legal back in the 60's. Do you think that athletes like Snell or Ryun were on something?
@7agneskickingbird7 Not at all. Your scenario is probably the most plausible, but I think Coe's over distance ability was as good as Ovett's. Ovett may have been a bit too wily for Coe in such a race, but after Prague Coe seemed to hit some very good form and would have been out for revenge. Ovett probably still wins that night, but it would have been close.
Are you ukathleticscoach on letsrun? I think some steroids could help one recover from tough workouts faster but peds like hgh and epo/cera do it better. While training at altitude can definately help an individual, I think that some athletes that are from altitude have used epo and whatnot. I have an incredibly tough time believing that 12:37 and 26:17 were done totally naturally. If I'm not mistaken, I also believe that some Moroccan and Spanish athletes have trained at altitude. Cheers
@deano27671 I don't think that all 80's athletes were dirty. I think the British trio were clean, but won't say for certain. I know Ventolin thinks Coe blood doped, but athletes that were blood doping then were from countries that pretty much institutionalized that practice, Finland Italy etc, so I think it's unlikely concerning Coe.
I'm pretty sure that steroids weren't around though in high schools back in 64 or 65. I'd like to think that Ryun was clean, but now you've got me thinking:-)
BTW some good times you got there kicking bird. Keep up the training, off 53 you can run 1:53/4 and sub 4 1500m and are young enough to then impove again on those times. Keep up the running and good luck!
.. while the long distance champions and WR have not failed tests. While that continues we can at least hope they are clean. Last example look at Bedford running 27:30 if he were around today he would at least be running 27:00. Over 400m he is 45 secs down on the top EA's. Providing you have a light build you are carrying that speed advantage on every lap multiplied. eg Bedford 54 KB 49 who is going to feel easier at 60 sec laps. Or take Coe/Ovett against Walker over 400m same thing. Cheers
That's me. Most top athletes train at altitude but its hard to subsitute being born there. A lot of people say its genetetics with East African but I don't think ths is the case as ones with their countrymen with same genes but born away from rift valley. Mor/SPA ahtletes do train at altitude but how long do they spend there? Check the iaaf wiki doping list virtually no Ethiopians of course some would get lucky on tests but not all. Some Kenyans have been done but lower level ones. On 12:37..
@deano27671 While I agree with you, I wouldn't use Coe calling for lifetime bans and being fervently anti drugs as evidence that he was clean. There have been athletes that were dirty that were outspoken against drugs like Marion Jones, Carl Lewis, El G, Lance Armstrong etc. I still think he was clean, and would be surprised if it was found that he was doping. But like I said earlier, there is not a single athlete I will say for 100% certainty to be clean or dirty. Even my all time fav Jim Ryun.
@deano27671 On a very recent thread on Letsrun about Ryun being the best middle d man in history, I noticed that when you were comparing Ryun to others, you compared each athletes longevity. I agreed with everything else, but I think that Coe or Ovett would not have had long careers had they been competing in the 60's in the U.S where you made $0 for running. That and the fact that others at the time like Snell and Elliott had Commonwealths to compete in. Ryun only had the Olympics to compete in
He also carried out the research in his role as Vice President of the Sports Council, and published a document (with Lord Moynihan) in 1985, calling for a ban on blood doping in sport. His findings were taken up by the IAAF and implemented in 1986. So, you see that Coe has always been fervently anti- drugs and there is not an ounce of evidence to suggest that he ever used.
COE WAS 100% CLEAN !!!!!!
BTW, I am more of a 800m-1500m guy who dabbles in the 400 and rarely runs over 1500m.
Well firstly a coach who knows you is going to give better advise than any person remotely. Next all workouts will improve you running. If you are doing 400m's for 5km you need short recoveries. I would say longer reps are better for 5km pace, but as an example you could start on 20 x 400m off 90 sec then over time progress to 10 x 800m off 2 mins then once ready 5 x 1000m off 2:30. Now if your coach had you doing just 10 x 400m you might question it (unless for mile pace training) ....
4/5 secs!
You gotta let them post the time if you run a video like this
Steroids don't do much for a male distance running. Blood doping has a limited effect its very hard to trace so there would be no point using EPO if it were that good. Either can be replaced by being born at or training for years at altitude which is why those athletes from lower countries get done more
Of course there are those that will argue that the drop in times is due to inadequate pacemaking, but I think that the athletes today know that they can't split 1:50 in a 1500m and continue on. Or if you are talking to Renato Canova he will tell you that every middle distance wr is clean and say you are talking about things you know nothing about. I personally think he is either naive to the max or is lying through his teeth and knows the records are dirty but wants to make the sport look clean.
Ah, the good old days, when you could dope up on cocktails of performance enhancing drugs that were undetectable. Lucky Lord Coe a man so obviously off his face, I remember one post race interview and his pupils were the size of saucers and he was dribbling, high as a kite! Now he wants life bans for anyone caught taking drugs and he's the most outspoken person in UK athletics about drug taking 'The Lady doth protest too much'.
but if you do 20 x 400m or 5 x 1000m now its not going to make a big (if any!) difference. If you train hard with a good group that matters more than the specifics of individual workouts. So trust your coach as it looks like your times are progressing. In the race take it easy in the early stages as the pace will feel slow for you. Better to do a reasonable race than blow up. Then you have set a marker for your next one. Over distance race will do you good as a middle distance guy. Good luck
Subutamol inhalers where as bad as the bits got ....
The chance of being caught if he were doping, however slight, would surely not be worth taking having put his neck on the line, especially if he had political aspirations. It would only take one witness or a positive test to totally ruin both his athletic career and any future political one. Moreover, it wasn't just rhetoric, he actually instigated the passing of legislation against blood doping within the IOC and IAAF while still competing. He actually put his money where his mouth was.
look at Dave Moocroft 30 years ago. No pacemaker, slower track, not born at altitude- maybe a few wks training here and there, training also moved on slightly. EPO is more about increasing your O2 uptake than recovery. Steroids help women more because thay lack strength and brother beats sister may help guys a bit but bulk is slowing. They need to change the ban to 4 yrs min. in all sports by the way its a joke at the moment. Look at all the WR & champion sprinters busted ....
@Whatsitallabaaat Clearly you are ignorant of athletics from that time. Coe was the most tested athlete (over 200 times) of the 80's. What were all these "undetectable" drugs? The only undetectable one in recent times is EPO, which wasn't available before the mid 90's. Steroids were detectable and he would have been tested for them at every major Champs & after every world record performance.