"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." - Isaiah 9.6 "They will look on me, the one they have pierced" - Zechariah 12.10 "Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives" - Zechariah 14.4 But then in Daniel : "there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed." - Daniel 7.13 Isaiah 53 : "my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities." Isaiah 52.10 : "The LORD will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God." It's a tough subject trying to understand but I think the best analogy is that just like my own arm is part of myself and does what I command it, or my own mouth say the words that I want to express, and both are parts of myself.
Good stuff as always, Jim. I believe Jesus was NOT a created being, but co-eternal with God. He WAS God, and he was WITH God. But I do NOT believe, just yet, from Biblical evidence, that the Holy Spirit is actually a being. I do not believe in the Holy Spirit's "personhood". God will correct me if I'm wrong, because I am still humbly searching His Word. I enjoy your forensic arguments, but the "Trinity" one never stands up, for me. Look, I know almost the entire Christian world will not join me in seeing the logical non sequitur I'm about to describe, but I see it nonetheless, and what I REALLY cannot understand is how a master of impartial, evidence-based logic as yourself can make the inductive jump from believing Jesus is God to believing that, therefore, the HS is a third "person". This equivalence pervades the entire Christian world, and I can' t help feeling it comes from some sort of received tradition, or a bandwagon fallacy, or some bias which people confirm with very tenuous Biblical evidence - and yes, I have heard your evidence based on Bible verses and I think they are the most fragile arguments you have presented, if you're using the same Scriptures I am. Their logic seems to go something like this: If Jesus is God, this breaks the logical bind that God is one being, of one nature, and opens the way for the idea that there is also a "third person" as well. In fact, according to this logic, it doesn't just open the way for it, it makes it true. You yourself use this reasoning, and I can only describe it as a device, because you're not dumb. It begins at 23:08, where, after proving Jesus did in fact claim parity with God, you say this can only be comprehended by those with a "triune" conception of God. Really? I don't have a triune conception of God, yet I understand and believe it because Jesus said it, and he said it without one reference to a third "person". This reasoning is not Scriptural, as far as I can see. Before you mention this notion of God's "triune" nature (right now, I must admit, I even find the word irritating, because it seems "stuck on" to any discussion of God's nature, as though people are obliged to throw it in after discussing the relationship between Jesus and his Father), you say something briefly about your "Mormon family". Mormons of course don't believe in the trinity, and they also hold that Jesus is a created being. I hope you don't think that is the case with everyone who questions trinitarianism. I don't think you're so simplistic. Anyway, I have no reason to believe in a trinity, based on the Biblical evidence. The verses Trinitarians quote to prove their triune Godhead are tenuous when used for that purpose. But there is a lot more to make me a Trinity sceptic. Firstly, there is that rhetorical device people use, when they will prove Jesus' deity and immediately throw in casual reference to the "Triune" God as you did in the example above, then move on, as though one necessarily follows upon the other. I'm kind of astounded that you, as a forensic man, use such an informal fallacy without hesitation. Secondly, there is the false logic of it. This fake equivalence requires one to talk of the third "being" as though it exists in order to make the equivalence in the first place. By talking this third "person" into existence, one can then make statements about the traits it shares with Jesus (like co-eternality). It's like saying, "a unicorn shares similarities with a horse, therefore a unicorn is a real creature." Thirdly, there is the totally unfounded assumption that one must believe Jesus is NOT God, but is in fact a created being, in order to believe the Holy Spirit is a not a person. I'm always confounded at this premise. I know Jesus is God, as you do, yet I do not believe the Holy Spirit is a being at all. Furthermore, I DO believe God's Spirit is co-eternal with Him, because it' s God's Spirit! And because it is described from the beginning. This leads me to another unfounded assumption often thrown my way: that I am actually saying the Holy Spirit doesn't exist at all, when there is abundant Biblical evidence that it does. What I am saying is that this evidence does not prove the "personhood" of the Spirit to me, and the methods used to prove the HS IS a person only convince me further that I'm on the right track. Fourthly, there is the coercive approach to those (like me) who don't buy into the idea that the HS is a "person". Such a suggestion, even when made tentatively - even if I leave room for the possibility that I'm in error, or just haven't seen it yet - is met with exaggerated incredulity, fear for my eternal soul, accusations of heresy and apostasy, accusations that I am not, nor could I ever have been, a true Christian, or simple dismissal. This makes me suspect they, not I, have been duped. There seems to be something decidedly un-Christian about it. As you constantly say, words matter, and I can't help feeling some of those who use this approach are either disingenuous or dumb, not, I emphasise, because of the content of their argument, but because this approach betrays something else. I think it's dishonesty or self-delusion. I don't think they're all just silly. I do wonder about their evidence. I understand, as I said, that most of Christianity believes in the trinity, but that doesn't make it right, just as two billion Catholics doesn't make Catholicism right. So far, my reading of Scripture reveals no evidence of three beings, or the threefold nature, if you like, of God. But I do find plenty of evidence for the Trinitarian belief itself after the last of the apostles died, and men like Athanasius of Alexandria began to have influence. He might be revered, but that doesn't make him right. I understand that my lack of belief in a trinity is not a salvation matter, but I might be wrong! A lot of Christians seem to be telling me I'd better hurry up and prove it to myself, lest I die in sin! I'll keep searching humbly. Humility itself might not get me into the Kingdom, but confidently declaring falsehoods to be true might keep me out! It's a fine line, it seems. Thank God (literally) that Jesus is the one on the Judgement Throne.
I like to tell atheists who say Jesus never claimed to be God, "Before Abraham was born, *I AM."* And "Destroy THIS temple and in three days *I will make it rise."* Case closed.
Jesus did claim to be God, but when debating this with skeptics, it's important to not rely ONLY on John's gospel, since it was written later. If Jesus isn't claiming to be God in earlier gospels and is in the later one it seems like the story developed over time.
Didn't Jesus ask Peter, "Who do you think I am?" And Peter replied, "You re the Son of God." Which Jesus said something like, "I did not tell you this, so it was made known to you by the Father." Also, didn't Jesus say that all of the words he spoke came not from him but from the Father? Lastly, I've always wondered, how did the Apostles know what Pilate and Jesus talked about?
Right, Jesus said that the things he says do not come from him but are the Father's words, so the things he supposedly says on his behalf are not evidence that he claims or implies that he is God.
John 14 : 26 tells us that the holy spirit will help the appostles remember everything Jesus said. 2 Tim 3 : 16 informs us that all scripture is inspired of God and ideal for teaching, reproving, doctrine and teaching in righteousnes. There are things that the appostles could not have known about except through inspiration any more so than Moses could have known about the creation event. Despite the fact that many of the original christian writings were destroyed during the first and second century persecution of true christians, God made sure that what survived contained the information that He wanted us to have, despite the the fact pagans are responsible for their preservation.
Those words came from the Father because the father is the spirit living in Jesus the human who acts in a human way which are actions of the holy spirit. When he wept,spoke,angry and acted in any way it is called the holy spirit who is the third personality of God .God first revealed His Person to humanity in Genesis 1:26 when He said Let us make man in our image' and likeness. Not 3different persons but 3 personalities !!!! This has been the confusion made by Catholicism on the trinity. 3 personalities of positions or functions.!!! father,son and holy spirit. God describes himself with value. He is the prototype of man to man He is a spirit person who lives in a body called Jesus and has emotions,character traits and behaviours called the holy spirit . That is why you can offend the Father and son . But the holy spirit must not be grieved. Just like a person offended. We underestimate the human entity which we inherit from God
That is why Jesus can pray to the father living in Him. For each of the Godhead is God being part of the SpiritPerson . That is why you can apologize for a mistake for your own actions. Your anger and emotions are part of you,yet your lips gives the apology. Meanwhile the spirit in you makes the decisions for your body to react for the fault of your emotions being provoked. We think as sinful humans but God thinks as God. He says your thoughts and ways are not like mine. Jesus answered questions like no other. When Pilate and Caiaphas asked Matthew 26:64" whom Jesus was check how Jesus answered "You have answered right(exactly) ! Exactly as He had answered Satan in the desert .
he said "why do you call me good? only God is good". I see as saying do you realize that by calling me good you are calling me God. The statement doesn't contradict with his deity.
David said 'the LORD is my shepherd'; meaning God is a shepherd. If God is just a shepherd and Jesus claims to be the good shepherd, then there are only two conclusions you would have to come to; either Jesus places himself above God or He's the God. Choose one bro.
I hope that helps you to kind of take an orthodox position on the deity of christ ❤️❤️ Thank you mr. Jim i hope to be like you being an apologist in my country
Dear Mr. Warner your topic attracted me since what you are saying is pinned out in the holy quran ( muslims Holy book) in chapter ( 5 - 116) a conversation between God almighty and Jesus Christ on the day of judgment by asking Jesus ( peace be upon him ) whether he claimed divinity for himself and his mother during his missionary and Jesus( peace be upon him ) will deny such charge that he never claimed divinity
Well, you can see that whoever wrote the quran didn’t have a clear understanding of what Christianity teaches. Christians never claimed that it was thought in any way that Jesus His mother was divine. Since Islam claims that the quran is the perfectly preserved revelation from Allah, It shows that Allah was not aware of what Christianity thought. Are you telling me that the almighty Allah can be wrong?
You raised the question very respectfully. Thank you. One of the things to consider is was the Quran written by any of Jesus's contemporaries? Any eyewitnesses?
"Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ " (Luke 4: 12 ) In this chapter of Luke, Jesus reveals himself as man - "Man shall not live on bread alone", as servant of God "Worship the Lord your God and serve him only." and as Lord our God. And these 40 days of fasting have other meanings too.
6Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 7You love righteousness and hate wickedness; *Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You* With the oil of gladness more than Your companions. (Psalm 45:6-7) The title Messiah is from the Hebrew word "mashiach" which means anointed one. I'd advise you to read Hebrews 1; Isaiah 9; Micah 5; Psalm 45; John 1; Zechariah 12:10. Its actually all over scripture but these ones are the clearest. Hopefully that helps.
That is completely false. Throughout the entire Old Testament people claimed to see manifestations of Yahweh, but they did not die, how so? Because God made himself manifest in a way that they could comprehend or understand. Jesus was fully human as well as fully God, so they did not die when they saw him. If you think this then you should be asking why people in the Old testament didn’t die when they saw God. This is referring to God in all his glory.
John 7: 16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him. John 14: 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. Philippians 2: 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. John 12: 44 And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46 I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.” John 6: 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. Romans 8: 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 2 Peter 1: 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Hebrews 1: 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Romans 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
In the US, hair sounds like hare; wear sounds like where; there sounds like their and they’re. Glasses go on your face or by your plate. Driveways are for parking, parkways are for driving. English is naughty and knotty.
Thank you for all you do. I must disagree with what you said in this video beginning at about 15:35 "You will never find a single example of Jesus speaking for God". Jesus and God, as a matter of record said this about EVERYTHING Jesus said: John 12:49: " I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it." Deuteronomy 18:18 "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him." John 7:16 "My teaching is not My own," Jesus replied. "It comes from Him who sent Me." John 8:26 "I have much to say about you and much to judge. But the One who sent Me is truthful, and what I have heard from Him, I tell the world." John 8:28 So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me."
Look at how Moses spoke in Deuteronomy 32:1, 2 "Listen, O heavens, and *_I_* will speak; hear, O earth, the words of *_my_* mouth. Let *_my_* teaching fall like rain and *_my_* speech settle like dew".
Actually that is not true, Jesus claimed divinity many times not only in his words but also in his actions that reflected Yahweh in the Old Testament, I am happy to share some examples with you from the Gospel of Mark.
2Peter 1:20 says, " knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." verse 21, For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. " When you talk about the CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence, you are privately interpreting the scripture. There are approximately 41 instances in the New Testament that clearly mentions Jesus in some form of wording, as the Son of God. If Jesus is God, then the bible is inaccurate and contradicting.
The Father is God The Son is God The Holy Spirit is God 3 in 1. 1 in 3. The Trinity... He is not a bigger better bring than humans. God is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT kind of being. And being the direct relational Son of God, (not an adopted son of God like Adam or King David) automatically makes Jesus deity.
God is 3 personalities. When Jesus says "the father is greater than Him"it is because he is just but a human body which must obey the spirit living in him he calls father .He was the only person who revealed God as the father to the world. Also only l know the father!!!!!else l would be a LIAR! I and the Father ARE 1. !!!!! Meaning the same person because l and the holy spirit are components that make up God. Meaning when you are looking into His eyes you were looking into Jehovah almighty's being.
Good stuff as always, Jim. I believe Jesus was NOT a created being, but co-eternal with God. He WAS God, and he was WITH God. But I do NOT believe, just yet, from Biblical evidence, that the Holy Spirit is actually a being. I do not believe in the Holy Spirit's "personhood". God will correct me if I'm wrong, because I am still humbly searching His Word. I enjoy your forensic arguments, but the "Trinity" one never stands up, for me. Look, I know almost the entire Christian world will not join me in seeing the logical non sequitur I'm about to describe, but I see it nonetheless, and what I REALLY cannot understand is how a master of impartial, evidence-based logic as yourself can make the inductive jump from believing Jesus is God to believing that, therefore, the HS is a third "person". This equivalence pervades the entire Christian world, and I can' t help feeling it comes from some sort of received tradition, or a bandwagon fallacy, or some bias which people confirm with very tenuous Biblical evidence - and yes, I have heard your evidence based on Bible verses and I think they are the most fragile arguments you have presented, if you're using the same Scriptures I am. Their logic seems to go something like this: If Jesus is God, this breaks the logical bind that God is one being, of one nature, and opens the way for the idea that there is also a "third person" as well. In fact, according to this logic, it doesn't just open the way for it, it makes it true. You yourself use this reasoning, and I can only describe it as a device, because you're not dumb. It begins at 23:08, where, after proving Jesus did in fact claim parity with God, you say this can only be comprehended by those with a "triune" conception of God. Really? I don't have a triune conception of God, yet I understand and believe it because Jesus said it, and he said it without one reference to a third "person". This reasoning is not Scriptural, as far as I can see. Before you mention this notion of God's "triune" nature (right now, I must admit, I even find the word irritating, because it seems "stuck on" to any discussion of God's nature, as though people are obliged to throw it in after discussing the relationship between Jesus and his Father), you say something briefly about your "Mormon family". Mormons of course don't believe in the trinity, and they also hold that Jesus is a created being. I hope you don't think that is the case with everyone who questions trinitarianism. I don't think you're so simplistic. Anyway, I have no reason to believe in a trinity, based on the Biblical evidence. The verses Trinitarians quote to prove their triune Godhead are tenuous when used for that purpose. But there is a lot more to make me a Trinity sceptic. Firstly, there is that rhetorical device people use, when they will prove Jesus' deity and immediately throw in casual reference to the "Triune" God as you did in the example above, then move on, as though one necessarily follows upon the other. I'm kind of astounded that you, as a forensic man, use such an informal fallacy without hesitation. Secondly, there is the false logic of it. This fake equivalence requires one to talk of the third "being" as though it exists in order to make the equivalence in the first place. By talking this third "person" into existence, one can then make statements about the traits it shares with Jesus (like co-eternality). It's like saying, "a unicorn shares similarities with a horse, therefore a unicorn is a real creature." Thirdly, there is the totally unfounded assumption that one must believe Jesus is NOT God, but is in fact a created being, in order to believe the Holy Spirit is a not a person. I'm always confounded at this premise. I know Jesus is God, as you do, yet I do not believe the Holy Spirit is a being at all. Furthermore, I DO believe God's Spirit is co-eternal with Him, because it' s God's Spirit! And because it is described from the beginning. This leads me to another unfounded assumption often thrown my way: that I am actually saying the Holy Spirit doesn't exist at all, when there is abundant Biblical evidence that it does. What I am saying is that this evidence does not prove the "personhood" of the Spirit to me, and the methods used to prove the HS IS a person only convince me further that I'm on the right track. Fourthly, there is the coercive approach to those (like me) who don't buy into the idea that the HS is a "person". Such a suggestion, even when made tentatively - even if I leave room for the possibility that I'm in error, or just haven't seen it yet - is met with exaggerated incredulity, fear for my eternal soul, accusations of heresy and apostasy, accusations that I am not, nor could I ever have been, a true Christian, or simple dismissal. This makes me suspect they, not I, have been duped. There seems to be something decidedly un-Christian about it. As you constantly say, words matter, and I can't help feeling some of those who use this approach are either disingenuous or dumb, not, I emphasise, because of the content of their argument, but because this approach betrays something else. I think it's dishonesty or self-delusion. I don't think they're all just silly. I do wonder about their evidence. I understand, as I said, that most of Christianity believes in the trinity, but that doesn't make it right, just as two billion Catholics doesn't make Catholicism right. So far, my reading of Scripture reveals no evidence of three beings, or the threefold nature, if you like, of God. But I do find plenty of evidence for the Trinitarian belief itself after the last of the apostles died, and men like Athanasius of Alexandria began to have influence. He might be revered, but that doesn't make him right. I understand that my lack of belief in a trinity is not a salvation matter, but I might be wrong! A lot of Christians seem to be telling me I'd better hurry up and prove it to myself, lest I die in sin! I'll keep searching humbly. Humility itself might not get me into the Kingdom, but confidently declaring falsehoods to be true might keep me out! It's a fine line, it seems. Thank God (literally) that Jesus is the one on the Judgement Throne.
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." - Isaiah 9.6
"They will look on me, the one they have pierced" - Zechariah 12.10
"Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives" - Zechariah 14.4
But then in Daniel :
"there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed." - Daniel 7.13
Isaiah 53 :
"my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities."
Isaiah 52.10 :
"The LORD will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God."
It's a tough subject trying to understand but I think the best analogy is that just like my own arm is part of myself and does what I command it, or my own mouth say the words that I want to express, and both are parts of myself.
I’m genuinely surprised that these don’t have 200 times the views. These are videos that people need to see.
Yes they’re incredibly wisdom-dense and full of information and Truth
OT prophets: "This is what God says."
Jesus: "This is what I say."
I love that. Thank you sir.
I really appreciate your insight and sharing this important truth.
Good stuff as always, Jim. I believe Jesus was NOT a created being, but co-eternal with God. He WAS God, and he was WITH God. But I do NOT believe, just yet, from Biblical evidence, that the Holy Spirit is actually a being. I do not believe in the Holy Spirit's "personhood". God will correct me if I'm wrong, because I am still humbly searching His Word.
I enjoy your forensic arguments, but the "Trinity" one never stands up, for me. Look, I know almost the entire Christian world will not join me in seeing the logical non sequitur I'm about to describe, but I see it nonetheless, and what I REALLY cannot understand is how a master of impartial, evidence-based logic as yourself can make the inductive jump from believing Jesus is God to believing that, therefore, the HS is a third "person".
This equivalence pervades the entire Christian world, and I can' t help feeling it comes from some sort of received tradition, or a bandwagon fallacy, or some bias which people confirm with very tenuous Biblical evidence - and yes, I have heard your evidence based on Bible verses and I think they are the most fragile arguments you have presented, if you're using the same Scriptures I am.
Their logic seems to go something like this: If Jesus is God, this breaks the logical bind that God is one being, of one nature, and opens the way for the idea that there is also a "third person" as well. In fact, according to this logic, it doesn't just open the way for it, it makes it true. You yourself use this reasoning, and I can only describe it as a device, because you're not dumb. It begins at 23:08, where, after proving Jesus did in fact claim parity with God, you say this can only be comprehended by those with a "triune" conception of God. Really? I don't have a triune conception of God, yet I understand and believe it because Jesus said it, and he said it without one reference to a third "person".
This reasoning is not Scriptural, as far as I can see.
Before you mention this notion of God's "triune" nature (right now, I must admit, I even find the word irritating, because it seems "stuck on" to any discussion of God's nature, as though people are obliged to throw it in after discussing the relationship between Jesus and his Father), you say something briefly about your "Mormon family". Mormons of course don't believe in the trinity, and they also hold that Jesus is a created being. I hope you don't think that is the case with everyone who questions trinitarianism. I don't think you're so simplistic.
Anyway, I have no reason to believe in a trinity, based on the Biblical evidence. The verses Trinitarians quote to prove their triune Godhead are tenuous when used for that purpose. But there is a lot more to make me a Trinity sceptic.
Firstly, there is that rhetorical device people use, when they will prove Jesus' deity and immediately throw in casual reference to the "Triune" God as you did in the example above, then move on, as though one necessarily follows upon the other. I'm kind of astounded that you, as a forensic man, use such an informal fallacy without hesitation.
Secondly, there is the false logic of it. This fake equivalence requires one to talk of the third "being" as though it exists in order to make the equivalence in the first place. By talking this third "person" into existence, one can then make statements about the traits it shares with Jesus (like co-eternality). It's like saying, "a unicorn shares similarities with a horse, therefore a unicorn is a real creature."
Thirdly, there is the totally unfounded assumption that one must believe Jesus is NOT God, but is in fact a created being, in order to believe the Holy Spirit is a not a person. I'm always confounded at this premise. I know Jesus is God, as you do, yet I do not believe the Holy Spirit is a being at all. Furthermore, I DO believe God's Spirit is co-eternal with Him, because it' s God's Spirit! And because it is described from the beginning.
This leads me to another unfounded assumption often thrown my way: that I am actually saying the Holy Spirit doesn't exist at all, when there is abundant Biblical evidence that it does. What I am saying is that this evidence does not prove the "personhood" of the Spirit to me, and the methods used to prove the HS IS a person only convince me further that I'm on the right track.
Fourthly, there is the coercive approach to those (like me) who don't buy into the idea that the HS is a "person". Such a suggestion, even when made tentatively - even if I leave room for the possibility that I'm in error, or just haven't seen it yet - is met with exaggerated incredulity, fear for my eternal soul, accusations of heresy and apostasy, accusations that I am not, nor could I ever have been, a true Christian, or simple dismissal. This makes me suspect they, not I, have been duped. There seems to be something decidedly un-Christian about it. As you constantly say, words matter, and I can't help feeling some of those who use this approach are either disingenuous or dumb, not, I emphasise, because of the content of their argument, but because this approach betrays something else. I think it's dishonesty or self-delusion. I don't think they're all just silly. I do wonder about their evidence.
I understand, as I said, that most of Christianity believes in the trinity, but that doesn't make it right, just as two billion Catholics doesn't make Catholicism right. So far, my reading of Scripture reveals no evidence of three beings, or the threefold nature, if you like, of God. But I do find plenty of evidence for the Trinitarian belief itself after the last of the apostles died, and men like Athanasius of Alexandria began to have influence.
He might be revered, but that doesn't make him right.
I understand that my lack of belief in a trinity is not a salvation matter, but I might be wrong! A lot of Christians seem to be telling me I'd better hurry up and prove it to myself, lest I die in sin! I'll keep searching humbly. Humility itself might not get me into the Kingdom, but confidently declaring falsehoods to be true might keep me out! It's a fine line, it seems. Thank God (literally) that Jesus is the one on the Judgement Throne.
I like to tell atheists who say Jesus never claimed to be God, "Before Abraham was born, *I AM."* And "Destroy THIS temple and in three days *I will make it rise."* Case closed.
Jesus did claim to be God, but when debating this with skeptics, it's important to not rely ONLY on John's gospel, since it was written later. If Jesus isn't claiming to be God in earlier gospels and is in the later one it seems like the story developed over time.
The collective evidence is earlier than comparable bits for other historical characters.
Marks gospel arguably has higher christology than John.
Didn't Jesus ask Peter, "Who do you think I am?" And Peter replied, "You re the Son of God." Which Jesus said something like, "I did not tell you this, so it was made known to you by the Father." Also, didn't Jesus say that all of the words he spoke came not from him but from the Father? Lastly, I've always wondered, how did the Apostles know what Pilate and Jesus talked about?
Right, Jesus said that the things he says do not come from him but are the Father's words, so the things he supposedly says on his behalf are not evidence that he claims or implies that he is God.
John 14 : 26 tells us that the holy spirit will help the appostles remember everything Jesus said. 2 Tim 3 : 16 informs us that all scripture is inspired of God and ideal for teaching, reproving, doctrine and teaching in righteousnes.
There are things that the appostles could not have known about except through inspiration any more so than Moses could have known about the creation event.
Despite the fact that many of the original christian writings were destroyed during the first and second century persecution of true christians, God made sure that what survived contained the information that He wanted us to have, despite the the fact pagans are responsible for their preservation.
Those words came from the Father because the father is the spirit living in Jesus the human who acts in a human way which are actions of the holy spirit. When he wept,spoke,angry and acted in any way it is called the holy spirit who is the third personality of God .God first revealed His Person to humanity in Genesis 1:26 when He said Let us make man in our image' and likeness. Not 3different persons but 3 personalities !!!! This has been the confusion made by Catholicism on the trinity. 3 personalities of positions or functions.!!! father,son and holy spirit. God describes himself with value. He is the prototype of man to man
He is a spirit person who lives in a body called Jesus and has emotions,character traits and behaviours called the holy spirit . That is why you can offend the Father and son . But the holy spirit must not be grieved. Just like a person offended. We underestimate the human entity which we inherit from God
That is why Jesus can pray to the father living in Him. For each of the Godhead is God being part of the SpiritPerson . That is why you can apologize for a mistake for your own actions. Your anger and emotions are part of you,yet your lips gives the apology. Meanwhile the spirit in you makes the decisions for your body to react for the fault of your emotions being provoked. We think as sinful humans but God thinks as God. He says your thoughts and ways are not like mine. Jesus answered questions like no other. When Pilate and Caiaphas asked Matthew 26:64" whom Jesus was check how Jesus answered "You have answered right(exactly) ! Exactly as He had answered Satan in the desert .
I love your videos and books. Im learning so much. Thank you!
Thank you for this insight!!
You are so welcome!
Yup Lord Jesus is God
What did Jesus mean when He said, don't call Me good only my Father in heaven is good?
he said "why do you call me good? only God is good". I see as saying do you realize that by calling me good you are calling me God. The statement doesn't contradict with his deity.
David said 'the LORD is my shepherd'; meaning God is a shepherd. If God is just a shepherd and Jesus claims to be the good shepherd, then there are only two conclusions you would have to come to; either Jesus places himself above God or He's the God.
Choose one bro.
Did he just open up the comment section 2 weeks ago?
Yes that is correct!
@@ColdCaseChristianity oh, good to know. I was confused why all your videos had 5 comments
I hope that helps you to kind of take an orthodox position on the deity of christ ❤️❤️
Thank you mr. Jim i hope to be like you being an apologist in my country
Dear Mr. Warner your topic attracted me since what you are saying is pinned out in the holy quran ( muslims Holy book) in chapter ( 5 - 116) a conversation between God almighty and Jesus Christ on the day of judgment by asking Jesus ( peace be upon him ) whether he claimed divinity for himself and his mother during his missionary and Jesus( peace be upon him ) will deny such charge that he never claimed divinity
Well, you can see that whoever wrote the quran didn’t have a clear understanding of what Christianity teaches. Christians never claimed that it was thought in any way that Jesus His mother was divine.
Since Islam claims that the quran is the perfectly preserved revelation from Allah, It shows that Allah was not aware of what Christianity thought.
Are you telling me that the almighty Allah can be wrong?
You raised the question very respectfully. Thank you. One of the things to consider is was the Quran written by any of Jesus's contemporaries? Any eyewitnesses?
Thank you J🙏👌
Well, he DID refer to GOD as his..."FATHER."
3 in 1
1 in 3
Jesus said I and theFather are one so thatis that
Doesn't Jesus claims to be a Messiah rather than God himself? Messiah and God are quite different notions.
"Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ " (Luke 4: 12 )
In this chapter of Luke, Jesus reveals himself as man - "Man shall not live on bread alone", as servant of God "Worship the Lord your God and serve him only." and as Lord our God.
And these 40 days of fasting have other meanings too.
6Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 7You love righteousness and hate wickedness; *Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You* With the oil of gladness more than Your companions. (Psalm 45:6-7)
The title Messiah is from the Hebrew word "mashiach" which means anointed one.
I'd advise you to read Hebrews 1; Isaiah 9; Micah 5; Psalm 45; John 1; Zechariah 12:10. Its actually all over scripture but these ones are the clearest. Hopefully that helps.
Are they different notions? Why? Who else but God can save? Who but God can actually fulfill the role of redeemer, high priest and king.
Those who picked up stones knew exactly what he was claiming.
Thank you.
You're welcome!
Amazing
Thanks
Exodus 33:20 says "anyone who sees God will Absolutely Die!" Jesus was not God, he was his 1st creation, his 1st Son....The son of Yahweh Jehovah.
That is completely false. Throughout the entire Old Testament people claimed to see manifestations of Yahweh, but they did not die, how so? Because God made himself manifest in a way that they could comprehend or understand. Jesus was fully human as well as fully God, so they did not die when they saw him. If you think this then you should be asking why people in the Old testament didn’t die when they saw God. This is referring to God in all his glory.
Also John 9:9 the man born blind that was healed says I am. 😂😂. You left that one out! But Christians are deceiving in this Matter.
Nice twister
John 7: 16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.
John 14: 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
Philippians 2: 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
John 12: 44 And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46 I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
John 6: 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Romans 8: 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
2 Peter 1: 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
Hebrews 1: 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Romans 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Read John 20:17 while you are investigating
Amen ✝️❤️🙏
Parity or Parody? In USA accent it sounds the same
In the US, hair sounds like hare; wear sounds like where; there sounds like their and they’re. Glasses go on your face or by your plate. Driveways are for parking, parkways are for driving. English is naughty and knotty.
Thank you for all you do.
I must disagree with what you said in this video beginning at about 15:35 "You will never find a single example of Jesus speaking for God".
Jesus and God, as a matter of record said this about EVERYTHING Jesus said:
John 12:49: " I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it."
Deuteronomy 18:18
"I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him."
John 7:16
"My teaching is not My own," Jesus replied. "It comes from Him who sent Me."
John 8:26
"I have much to say about you and much to judge. But the One who sent Me is truthful, and what I have heard from Him, I tell the world."
John 8:28
So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me."
Look at how Moses spoke in Deuteronomy 32:1, 2
"Listen, O heavens, and *_I_* will speak; hear, O earth, the words of *_my_* mouth. Let *_my_* teaching fall like rain and *_my_* speech settle like dew".
Not once, never ever, did Jesus claim to be God. I have a 60 page presentation which is a disclaimer of that idea.
Actually that is not true, Jesus claimed divinity many times not only in his words but also in his actions that reflected Yahweh in the Old Testament, I am happy to share some examples with you from the Gospel of Mark.
2Peter 1:20 says, " knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." verse 21, For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. " When you talk about the CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence, you are privately interpreting the scripture. There are approximately 41 instances in the New Testament that clearly mentions Jesus in some form of wording, as the Son of God. If Jesus is God, then the bible is inaccurate and contradicting.
The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God
3 in 1. 1 in 3.
The Trinity... He is not a bigger better bring than humans. God is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT kind of being.
And being the direct relational Son of God, (not an adopted son of God like Adam or King David) automatically makes Jesus deity.
God is 3 personalities. When Jesus says "the father is greater than Him"it is because he is just but a human body which must obey the spirit living in him he calls father .He was the only person who revealed God as the father to the world. Also only l know the father!!!!!else l would be a LIAR! I and the Father ARE 1. !!!!!
Meaning the same person because l and the holy spirit are components that make up God. Meaning when you are looking into His eyes you were looking into Jehovah almighty's being.
Persons, not personalities.
Good stuff as always, Jim. I believe Jesus was NOT a created being, but co-eternal with God. He WAS God, and he was WITH God. But I do NOT believe, just yet, from Biblical evidence, that the Holy Spirit is actually a being. I do not believe in the Holy Spirit's "personhood". God will correct me if I'm wrong, because I am still humbly searching His Word.
I enjoy your forensic arguments, but the "Trinity" one never stands up, for me. Look, I know almost the entire Christian world will not join me in seeing the logical non sequitur I'm about to describe, but I see it nonetheless, and what I REALLY cannot understand is how a master of impartial, evidence-based logic as yourself can make the inductive jump from believing Jesus is God to believing that, therefore, the HS is a third "person".
This equivalence pervades the entire Christian world, and I can' t help feeling it comes from some sort of received tradition, or a bandwagon fallacy, or some bias which people confirm with very tenuous Biblical evidence - and yes, I have heard your evidence based on Bible verses and I think they are the most fragile arguments you have presented, if you're using the same Scriptures I am.
Their logic seems to go something like this: If Jesus is God, this breaks the logical bind that God is one being, of one nature, and opens the way for the idea that there is also a "third person" as well. In fact, according to this logic, it doesn't just open the way for it, it makes it true. You yourself use this reasoning, and I can only describe it as a device, because you're not dumb. It begins at 23:08, where, after proving Jesus did in fact claim parity with God, you say this can only be comprehended by those with a "triune" conception of God. Really? I don't have a triune conception of God, yet I understand and believe it because Jesus said it, and he said it without one reference to a third "person".
This reasoning is not Scriptural, as far as I can see.
Before you mention this notion of God's "triune" nature (right now, I must admit, I even find the word irritating, because it seems "stuck on" to any discussion of God's nature, as though people are obliged to throw it in after discussing the relationship between Jesus and his Father), you say something briefly about your "Mormon family". Mormons of course don't believe in the trinity, and they also hold that Jesus is a created being. I hope you don't think that is the case with everyone who questions trinitarianism. I don't think you're so simplistic.
Anyway, I have no reason to believe in a trinity, based on the Biblical evidence. The verses Trinitarians quote to prove their triune Godhead are tenuous when used for that purpose. But there is a lot more to make me a Trinity sceptic.
Firstly, there is that rhetorical device people use, when they will prove Jesus' deity and immediately throw in casual reference to the "Triune" God as you did in the example above, then move on, as though one necessarily follows upon the other. I'm kind of astounded that you, as a forensic man, use such an informal fallacy without hesitation.
Secondly, there is the false logic of it. This fake equivalence requires one to talk of the third "being" as though it exists in order to make the equivalence in the first place. By talking this third "person" into existence, one can then make statements about the traits it shares with Jesus (like co-eternality). It's like saying, "a unicorn shares similarities with a horse, therefore a unicorn is a real creature."
Thirdly, there is the totally unfounded assumption that one must believe Jesus is NOT God, but is in fact a created being, in order to believe the Holy Spirit is a not a person. I'm always confounded at this premise. I know Jesus is God, as you do, yet I do not believe the Holy Spirit is a being at all. Furthermore, I DO believe God's Spirit is co-eternal with Him, because it' s God's Spirit! And because it is described from the beginning.
This leads me to another unfounded assumption often thrown my way: that I am actually saying the Holy Spirit doesn't exist at all, when there is abundant Biblical evidence that it does. What I am saying is that this evidence does not prove the "personhood" of the Spirit to me, and the methods used to prove the HS IS a person only convince me further that I'm on the right track.
Fourthly, there is the coercive approach to those (like me) who don't buy into the idea that the HS is a "person". Such a suggestion, even when made tentatively - even if I leave room for the possibility that I'm in error, or just haven't seen it yet - is met with exaggerated incredulity, fear for my eternal soul, accusations of heresy and apostasy, accusations that I am not, nor could I ever have been, a true Christian, or simple dismissal. This makes me suspect they, not I, have been duped. There seems to be something decidedly un-Christian about it. As you constantly say, words matter, and I can't help feeling some of those who use this approach are either disingenuous or dumb, not, I emphasise, because of the content of their argument, but because this approach betrays something else. I think it's dishonesty or self-delusion. I don't think they're all just silly. I do wonder about their evidence.
I understand, as I said, that most of Christianity believes in the trinity, but that doesn't make it right, just as two billion Catholics doesn't make Catholicism right. So far, my reading of Scripture reveals no evidence of three beings, or the threefold nature, if you like, of God. But I do find plenty of evidence for the Trinitarian belief itself after the last of the apostles died, and men like Athanasius of Alexandria began to have influence.
He might be revered, but that doesn't make him right.
I understand that my lack of belief in a trinity is not a salvation matter, but I might be wrong! A lot of Christians seem to be telling me I'd better hurry up and prove it to myself, lest I die in sin! I'll keep searching humbly. Humility itself might not get me into the Kingdom, but confidently declaring falsehoods to be true might keep me out! It's a fine line, it seems. Thank God (literally) that Jesus is the one on the Judgement Throne.