Regarding Macca's idea about bringing back Corax for him to be in opposition of Primaris: Non-Primaris Marine models are being phased out as we speak, the last thing GW would want is a faction that prefers using them. The Primaris are not a plot point, they are not a reform that shakes up the setting and leads to interesting dilemmas. They are exclusively a way for GW to copyright the names of their most popular units, shift the aesthetic of the game towards more casual audiences and invalidate existing armies so you need to buy more models. The most we're getting away with is that Seth quote about "Ultramarines in red" and the Flesh Tearers are still forced to accept Primaris Marines within the same paragraph. GW will not put out a story discussing whether their own cash grab is a good idea for the Imperium.
Ngl, I liked the Blood Angels because they desperately try to prop up Sanguinius’ legacy after his death. Even 10,000 years later, them pushing towards his ideals despite their 2 flaws is a testament to their strength. 🤩
The Alpha Legion is a weird one to wrap your head around because unlike the other legions, the 20th viewed their serfs back in the Heresy as part of the Legion. Where the Salamanders view the Normals as people needing protection, the 20th view normals as another set of eyes, ears, and hands that can serve the Legion because of the way they operate. Much easier to infiltrate an arbites unit when your agent who fits the uniform is nice ,docile, and compliant because they feel appreciated as per the Alpharius primarch novel. Do agree that the patter of normalization/de-monsterification of what are supposed to be Child-Soldiers turned into living weapons does exist though.
39:50 I think you guys were kind of missing the point of your own discussion until about here. Honestly this probably should be titled “Creating Space Marines that act like they haven’t been at war for thousands of years is bad.” Because what you guys seem to hone in on is that you want to see what happens when you create a super soldier, in a dogmatic environment, that can endure millennia of trauma and war on their psyche, without being utterly shattered, mentally, and still completely capable physically. Humanized in the subtle ways that make sense for a post-human bred for war.
Really like the point from Northern Exile about whether we should even tell SM stories. Personally I have always much preferred it when Space marines (and Stormcasts from AOS) aren't the focus and are instead a sidecharacter or even a extra in someone else's story, allowing you to see them from the perspective of a more relatable character. Makes them a lot more interesting to me at least, and doesn't give too much away.
My major problem with the Primaris is how they never bring up the logistical problems of the Primaris. Like, seriously, I just want one book where they go over that a space marine chapter does not want Primaris because they logistically cannot take them; they don't have the material nor the production capabilities to maintain all of the very specialised, highly advanced equipment.
I have always hated that about primaris. What does a chapter do with the thousands of sets of firstborn power armour that they have, because every chapter is going to have more power armour than astartes with relic suits and new suits for those who just passed their scout phase. What about all the weapons and vehicles. You telling me they won't use rhinos, predators, whirlwinds, vindicators and land speeders. They are likely easier to maintain than primaris grav vehicles, especially anything built on the rhino chassis. And the organizational aspects, how does say an intercessor squad deal with something that cannot be put down with a bolter, okay they have a grenade launcher but what will that do against armour? Same with a hellblaster squad, how do they deal with swarms of enemies before their plasma weapons oveheat. What do infernus marines do when the enemy outranges them? The mono loadout works in the heresy when a company is around a thousand marines, not when a company is a hundred.
Mike Brooks is a genuinely talented author who is incapable of stepping outside his strange anarchistic take on the setting. He needs an editor that is willing to reign him in, but if he got that he would be great.
I like the fabious bile idea. Have him create super marines, and then the imperium are like, “how do we do that? Uuuuh just leave them in the oven a little longer, so technically we’re not messing with the emperor’s design”.
Btw: I don't believe Northern Exile that he has read emperor spears. Everything he said about the NL novels also applies to emperor spears. But he doesn't know that because he hasn't read the book. The story is mainly told through the eyes of one of the human protagonists. Not a Space Marine.
If you dont want to demystify space marines, just dont read the books. The whole point of the books is to give you more information about the characters and to show you how they FEEL. Reading a story about them is going to make them feel more human, if you prefer it not be like that, you just dont read the books.
Space Marines are still human. While some choose to deny it or for go the ways of normal humans, they cannot change who they are. They still have the capacity for things like Empathy. Not only do they need to be somewhat human to write stories about them, but it allows for a greater level of depth otherwise unachievable.
Super colobration. I've been following Makka for a few years now and I really appreciate his opinion, even if it doesn't always match my own. Sometimes it seems a bit too salty for me. But it's never completely devoid of substance. And I appreciate it above all because it stems from a love for the hobby. @Whathe40k I love this kind of content from you. I also liked all your Book reivews. even though they don't seem to have as many vews, I would like to see more of them in the future.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
Regarding Macca's idea about bringing back Corax for him to be in opposition of Primaris:
Non-Primaris Marine models are being phased out as we speak, the last thing GW would want is a faction that prefers using them.
The Primaris are not a plot point, they are not a reform that shakes up the setting and leads to interesting dilemmas. They are exclusively a way for GW to copyright the names of their most popular units, shift the aesthetic of the game towards more casual audiences and invalidate existing armies so you need to buy more models.
The most we're getting away with is that Seth quote about "Ultramarines in red" and the Flesh Tearers are still forced to accept Primaris Marines within the same paragraph. GW will not put out a story discussing whether their own cash grab is a good idea for the Imperium.
Ngl, I liked the Blood Angels because they desperately try to prop up Sanguinius’ legacy after his death. Even 10,000 years later, them pushing towards his ideals despite their 2 flaws is a testament to their strength. 🤩
Nothing wrong with enjoying the themes, Blood Angels are certainly the heroic exemplar type.
There's definetly an argument about 40K getting too nobledark as of late.
Personally, I wish we could see more of the Sharks and Malevolents.
The Alpha Legion is a weird one to wrap your head around because unlike the other legions, the 20th viewed their serfs back in the Heresy as part of the Legion.
Where the Salamanders view the Normals as people needing protection, the 20th view normals as another set of eyes, ears, and hands that can serve the Legion because of the way they operate.
Much easier to infiltrate an arbites unit when your agent who fits the uniform is nice ,docile, and compliant because they feel appreciated as per the Alpharius primarch novel.
Do agree that the patter of normalization/de-monsterification of what are supposed to be Child-Soldiers turned into living weapons does exist though.
39:50 I think you guys were kind of missing the point of your own discussion until about here. Honestly this probably should be titled “Creating Space Marines that act like they haven’t been at war for thousands of years is bad.”
Because what you guys seem to hone in on is that you want to see what happens when you create a super soldier, in a dogmatic environment, that can endure millennia of trauma and war on their psyche, without being utterly shattered, mentally, and still completely capable physically.
Humanized in the subtle ways that make sense for a post-human bred for war.
Really like the point from Northern Exile about whether we should even tell SM stories. Personally I have always much preferred it when Space marines (and Stormcasts from AOS) aren't the focus and are instead a sidecharacter or even a extra in someone else's story, allowing you to see them from the perspective of a more relatable character. Makes them a lot more interesting to me at least, and doesn't give too much away.
Although I do like CSM books from their POV
31:10 Hit the nail on the head with what I was droning on about here lol.
The most recent novels that brought back the post-human, otherworldly aspects of the Space Marines for me were the Matt Ferrer Sabbat world duology.
My major problem with the Primaris is how they never bring up the logistical problems of the Primaris. Like, seriously, I just want one book where they go over that a space marine chapter does not want Primaris because they logistically cannot take them; they don't have the material nor the production capabilities to maintain all of the very specialised, highly advanced equipment.
I have always hated that about primaris. What does a chapter do with the thousands of sets of firstborn power armour that they have, because every chapter is going to have more power armour than astartes with relic suits and new suits for those who just passed their scout phase. What about all the weapons and vehicles. You telling me they won't use rhinos, predators, whirlwinds, vindicators and land speeders. They are likely easier to maintain than primaris grav vehicles, especially anything built on the rhino chassis. And the organizational aspects, how does say an intercessor squad deal with something that cannot be put down with a bolter, okay they have a grenade launcher but what will that do against armour? Same with a hellblaster squad, how do they deal with swarms of enemies before their plasma weapons oveheat. What do infernus marines do when the enemy outranges them? The mono loadout works in the heresy when a company is around a thousand marines, not when a company is a hundred.
Mike brooks is a great example of a writer who is capable of decent writing if he just didn't inject his politics into everything.
👍 Agreed....but he does, and that makes him a certified *Hack.* ;-)) 🙂
Another great discussion from the 3x CC's I gravitate (& listen to) _the _*_most._* [};-)=•☁️
Mike Brooks is a genuinely talented author who is incapable of stepping outside his strange anarchistic take on the setting. He needs an editor that is willing to reign him in, but if he got that he would be great.
I like the fabious bile idea. Have him create super marines, and then the imperium are like, “how do we do that? Uuuuh just leave them in the oven a little longer, so technically we’re not messing with the emperor’s design”.
Btw: I don't believe Northern Exile that he has read emperor spears. Everything he said about the NL novels also applies to emperor spears. But he doesn't know that because he hasn't read the book. The story is mainly told through the eyes of one of the human protagonists. Not a Space Marine.
1:38:18. = 🦃 🦆 🐔 = 🌬️ 🥒 ( *_Storm 🥓 Dirken_* )
Can anyone link the Chrono trigger remix? I really enjoyed that rendition.
Music is from @harpsibored , RUclipsr who makes based harp covers. Link and song ref in description.
I love you WhatThe40K guy
Why is it whenever old guard meets to shit on gw, its always you three?! Cool vid
Woooo!
If you dont want to demystify space marines, just dont read the books. The whole point of the books is to give you more information about the characters and to show you how they FEEL. Reading a story about them is going to make them feel more human, if you prefer it not be like that, you just dont read the books.
Of course they are human. Nothing less than one of the only species fit to inhabit the galaxy could serve as his finest.
Space Marines are still human. While some choose to deny it or for go the ways of normal humans, they cannot change who they are. They still have the capacity for things like Empathy. Not only do they need to be somewhat human to write stories about them, but it allows for a greater level of depth otherwise unachievable.
Super colobration. I've been following Makka for a few years now and I really appreciate his opinion, even if it doesn't always match my own. Sometimes it seems a bit too salty for me. But it's never completely devoid of substance. And I appreciate it above all because it stems from a love for the hobby. @Whathe40k I love this kind of content from you. I also liked all your Book reivews. even though they don't seem to have as many vews, I would like to see more of them in the future.