The Original Elk Cartridge (NOT WHAT YOU THINK)
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- Welcome to Ron Spomer Outdoors! In this video Joseph Von Benedikt heads over to Scotland to go Red Stag hunting, and talks about the history of elk cartridges. The original elk cartridge might not be what you think it is.
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
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Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.
My German grandfather, who introduced me to hunting, shot Stag in the Black Forest with an 8X57 JS 196 grain out of his Krieghoff drilling. I still own this fine weapon.
That's terrific!
Friend of mine has one chambered in 9,3x74R and an insert barrel I believe in 5,6x50R. It's very short which is benefitial on enclosed high seats. Had taken many red stag and boar whith it.
JRS, excellent cartridge it is .
I've shot a lot of game with my 8 mm Mauser personally I prefer to hunt with it opposed to my 300 short mag both are equally accurate having about a half inch Group at 100 yards but I find my Mouser fits me better and is quicker to operate especially with iron sights
Also my father took over a hundred Deer with my Mauser with about a quarter of those being neck shots with the right ammo in Mauser in good condition can be a nail driver
Great show! Beautiful country! The .30-06 SPRG is still my favorite cartridge for hunting followed very closely by the 280 REM.
I love my .280 Rem. had to build my own rifle. Put together a Mauser 98 action, Douglas barrel, Timely trigger and Fagen stock. The thing is a freak on deer. Big time on the range. MOA gun once l came up with its favorite load.
Those are the 2 most versatile hunting cartridges of the “older style”. Both really hard to beat
270,,, even mr, webley swore by this cartridge for better accuracy,, take out camels,,, donkeys ,,pigs etc,,
My go to is a 280 Remington last year I took my moose with the 7x57 Mauser with 160 Speer grand slam. 👍🏻
Took my bull moose last year with a 7x57 160 grain grand slam. My main hunting rifle is a 280 Remington. 👍🏻
"He's probably been a better stag in his day."...that describes a lot of us!😁
4:58 Um...there were no "Mexicans" shooting at Roosevelt when charging up San Juan hill. They were Cubans and Spanish soldiers.
The 7x57 DID inspire the .30-06. Though it was not because it was "lighter recoiling" than the US .30-40 Krag rifles, but it WAS flatter shooting.
Absolutely right on both points. I read somewhere a couple of years ago that Mauser ended up taking the U.S. government to court due to the similarities between the 30-06 and his 7x57. Both are great calibers even by today's standards.
@@mikehemphill524 Yes, Mauser sued Springfield, but not for the cartridge. Springfield had licensed the design of the cartridge and the spitzer bullet design from Mauser. But rather for the rifle action. The Springfield 1903 is basically a direct copy of the Mauser '98 action with just a few changes.
Mauser won the lawsuit and Springfield was forced to pay $250,000 in royalties to Mauser for every rifle they made...until 1917, when other events ended that arrangement.
The 30-06 is great for anything moose, elk, deers, brown or black bears even bison
For those interested in some facts on the 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge used to take that red stag, here they are:
Barnes Vor-TX LRX BT. 127grain Long Range monolithic copper Boattail profile pointed by a blue polymer tip, the bullet expands with four petals. It has a Ballistic Coefficient of .468 G1. At the Muzzle 2850 FPS, 2290 E, at 200 yards 2466 FPS 1715 E, at 400 yards 2092 FPS, 1234 E. At 400 yards it has dropped 21.6 inches from a zero at 200 yards. The 6.5 Creedmoor is a very capable cartridge when appropriate bullet style, weight and powder load is selected for the game being hunted and the distance involved. Proper Placement is always important.
At 18.32 minutes, when you give a run down of your equipment, I note that you used a sako 85, a Swarovski scope AND a good DPT suppressor from NZ, it's worth a mention! (When you come to NZ to shoot one of our red stag be sure to contact DPT machinists in Hamilton for a tour of their factory)
I'm m a little surprised the 6.5x55 Swede wasn't mentioned. Fantastic cartridge.
The legend of that being used for European moose?
European moose are smaller beasts by comparison with N. America and certainly Alaska.
Also, the 6.5x55 wasn't the natural choice by the northern European hunters for moose, but was used in popularity because it was what was available, and hunting ranges were kept relatively close as a result of it.
@@exothermal.sprocketit punches harder than the.30/30, and it has been successfully used on moose in the new world as well for Moose.
@@charlesmason1278 That remains to be defined by specific terms honestly. As I'm quite familiar with .30-30 performance, it usually expands at twice its original diameter (in either the common 150gr or 170gr loads, both). Depending on range, the .308 caliber bullet will terminate at probably 1800-2100 fps. Understanding how the math works on this, you determine the frontal pressure of an expanded bullet by the square surface area and the velocity at which that final surface area is achieved (however much the bullet has slowed before max expansion happens).
Likewise with a .264 bullet of a given weight.
Does double .308 expansion vs. double .264 expansion matter? I guess it depends on the velocity of each bullet when that max expansion is achieved as they crush tissue. If you have a larger more blunt object trying to penetrate tissue, logic says it requires more force to do it. That force is a product of weight and velocity (generating a pressure to defeat tissue at the nose, thereby keep moving, penetrating).
The end result is, which is more effective within the average use case? Measured in time to incapacitate. It's not as easy as just tossing numbers on a sheet of paper.
Terminal ballistic science is complex, it cannot be simplified by eliminating a bunch of factors which are all present when a bullet strikes something.
A lot of cartridge opposition towards German cartridges sadly it was,but 8mm, 9,3 took quite a populary, then came the wars and people got German phobia and almost racist and scare to cartridge over 6,5mm . Almost a collective emotional languish ( feel bad towards people using more and different ones/ not one of us), yes ive been hazed due to using other cartridges on hunts .
@@MrPh30 Who can blame them? War is a deeply emotionally scarring thing.
If you go over to Sweden and Finland ...they used the 6.5x55 with 150-160 gr projectiles...it and the 7x57 are about the same. Animals (their moose and stag type animals) are about the same size. Performance is about the same...and the 6.5 CM is about the same. They were facing about the same game and used about the same solution. I still use the 6.5 x 55 on deer today and it works just about perfect for white tails out to 300 yds.... you don't need fancy. You just need something that works....and I would not be surprised it the Scottish guys have not seen them being used there also. I love the 7x57 and my first deer rifle was a 280 Rem...I chose it over the 270 win because I love the 7mm projectiles. Great video.
100% agree. I currently have a Tikka 695 in 6.5 x 55 and love it , I have also had several 7 x 57 rifles and loved them. Ironically I am soon going to have a custom made 280 rem back that I sold to a friend a few years ago. All are great calibers. M y favourite projectiles used are the Barnes TTSX and the norma Oryx both of which are accurate and reliable humane killers.
You're right--and the 6.5-55 is one of my personal favorites, too. One of the game keepers there is a big fan of it as well.
A red stag is about the size of a moose calf.
Ah yes, the 6.5 Swedemoor
Loads of stalkers in UK shoot 6.5 SWE, the S.D. and twist and lots of bullet choices keep it popular.
One of the Kantine operators at JMRC Hohenfels (between Nuremberg and Regensburg in the North Bavarian "Oberpfalz" - Upper Palatinate) uses .30-06. The nearby custom Mauser maker Kessler in Deggendorf lists .243 Win., .25-06 Rem., 6.5x55, 6.5x57, .270 Win., 7mm Rem. Mag., 7x57, 7mm-08, 7x64, .308 Win., .30-06, .270 WSM - .300 WSM, 8x57JS - 8x64 S - 9.3x62 for standard actions.
So many American cartridges including the newer short magnums. I am surprised!
What an adventure! A great opportunity, as well, to learn about the intimate geography, the prey animals, its evolutionary behaviors and the methods of managing a herd and stalking the herd for a cull buck from the very men who have done it all their lives. Wow! How I wish I could be there too.
The 7x57 inspired the 30-03 which was the round coupled with 1903 Springfield. The 30-03 was quickly updated to the 30-06 which gave a faster, flatter performance. Crazy cool video, I’m green with envy about this beautiful video. Thanks for sharing!
That sure was exciting to see and hear about some hunting in Scotland. That was a beautiful stag taken as well!
Awesome look at Red Stag hunt in UK. Thanks so much
Fun fun. Enjoyed that one. No complaints. Thanks, Ron.
Beautiful land and beautiful animals. Seem like a great hunt and adventure.
I'd take the 8 mm Mauser over the 7 mm any day and I know a guy in Alaska who guides for Grizzly and brown bear and prefers the 8 mm over 338 Win Mag it is not the guns fault or the cartridge that Americans don't load it right🎉😮🎉
A cartridge I own that is a ballistic twin to the 7×57 , the 7mm08. It has a little more power and very manageable recoil. At a proper hunting distance, with a good bullet and good shot placement it will take anything in N. America. The only exception might be large bears.
The true virtues of the 7x57 are to be used in the medium length mauser 98 system and the fast 8.66" twist and long freebore for heavy bullets
having a modern customized 1909 Chile mauser 98 system and being a handloader, I wouldn't ever even think about a 7-08
6.5x55 is pretty popular in Europe for large game and has been in service since 1894
The over barrel moderator on the Sako has always interested me. You see them used almost exclusively in Europe but rarely here in the states. They seem to be a better design than everything sticking out past the barrel.
6.5 Creedmoore is certainly a great choice for an animal that size.
It’s also interesting that those estates don’t normally let their clients use their own rifles. They use their own rifles that they are intimately familiar with and field proven.
"don’t normally let their clients use their own rifles". It's more a case of how legally difficult it is to own a rifle in the UK and (for overseas guests) transport one across international borders. This kind of hunting is EXTREMELY expensive and for a lot of folks it's a "once in a lifetime" or very occasional experience. Often a wealthy client will first spend a day on a range with a ghillie learning to shoot, having never fired a shot before in their life. Having the ghillie carry the rifle and closely supervise the actual shot also covers the bases as far as safety and a humane kill are concerned.
@@briskyoungploughboy Thanks for the clarification. I’m wondering just how much a hunt like that would cost? I do know that venison is much more prized in Europe than here in the states and a animal that size is probably worth quite a bit.
@@stevenlewis6781 I've seen the sum of US$5000 to $6000 not including taxidermy stated somewhere else on this thread, so the value of the meat (if any- I expect a lot of these old stags end up as dog-tucker) isn't really a consideration. These places essentially "wild farm" deer specifically for the purpose of "experience-hunting". The stock level is way higher than would normally be considered compatible with other commercial operations such as forestry or sheep-grazing. TBH if people want to experience this, that's fine with me-- it makes jobs in the countryside and that's always a good thing as there's precious little employment in agriculture and forestry these days. It also allows folks that don't have access to wild hunting to get a memorable experience and see some beautiful countryside.
A little pre video prep would have shown that Theodore Roosevelt charged up San Juan Hill against the Spanish. Mot the Mexicans.
And who started Spanish - US war of 1898? Surely Saddam Hussein with his atomic rockets and mobile chemical labors. Only two lies of a country, involved in both noted wars.
I really like that rifle you harvested your red stag with. It's interesting that it's a somewhat short barreled ( especially compared to what we use here in America even more so in the open plains states where 3 and 400 yard shot are the normal ) it's also cool to see the suppressor and it makes you realize how oppressive or government is by regulating them so much and making it such a challenge to obtain here in America. Great video. Congratulations on the beautiful red stag. Also, I enjoy the videos you have been making. You are a great addition to Ron's Channel
Jack Oconners wife provided that it is a great caliber as she took elk and deer with it without all the recoil! And Jack knew better then to argue with the boss🤔😳😂 I prefer the 30-06! If it was good enough for Teddy Roosevelt it’s plenty good enough for me!
Eleanor did use the 30/06. It was her "heavy" cartridge. She took tiger with it, and with 220 grain bullets, she took a bull elephant.
@@martinstiastny7679yes she did but she carried the 7x57 for most hunts just like Jack carried the 270 for most hunts!
30-30 Winchester is the best at everything that it is the best at.
Which is basically nothing. It’s nothing all that impressive ballistically, and due to various factors, is not inherently accurate.
Use it for nostalgia, if you like. Use it because it works for you( It most certainly will if you use it the way it has always been used)… To say that it is the best at anything though, is just foolishness.
7x64 Brenneke - has 280 AI velocity and weight bullets and has been slaying Red stags and moose all over Europe since 1917!
6.5×55mm Swedish - has 6.5 Creedmoor velocity and weight bullets and has been slaying moose and brown bears in Nordic Europe since 1894!
as Ron always says - everything new is well forgotten old... these two cartridges are not forgotten, but mainstream unknown to Americas
Bought a 6,5x57 ( established 1893) last week 😊.
Honestly 7x57 was the one that started it all with bottleneck cartridges and i live by the if it aint broke dont fix it but the improvement of it is the 280 remington thats my baby
And the .280 A.I. is probably the final step in that development, one could argue. Glad the A.I. version has made it into relative popularity with factory chambers these days.
Yep.
I can picture a Spanish (not Mexican) soldier with his conquistador hat and his 7x57 mouser taking a ridiculous pot shot at an American soldier like:
1- *_"oye cocho!"_*
2- *_"que?"_*
1- *_"mira esto"_*
Boom! a whole second later the American falls over.
2- *_"JODER!"_*
the 30-03 was a huge leap forward over the 30-40 krag . but that 220 grain lee- medford style roundnose bullet wasnt very good. the german spitzer bullet made the 30-06 really special! and it still is special,its as fast as the old 300 H&H. pretty impressive ballistics for being 117 years old!
While being a Red deer stalker here in Scotland myself and others i know who shoot the Reds like the accuracy of the Creed but dont like the hitting power it has, my friend who takes guests out regular has often had to do a follow up shot with his 270 which is more common to use here, i reload myself so gives me opportunities to use calibres like 6.5x284 with a fair bit more punch than the Creed, if i did not reload my choice would always be 270 for Red here in Scotland
Long live 270 Win!
Can the red deer really be called the original elk? Then how about the actual elk, the one that is called moose in north America and elk in the rest of the world?
No. The North American "Elk" (here in NZ it's called "Wapiti") is closely related to, and cross-fertile with Red deer, but is now classed as a different species. As you say, the European Elk is actually a Moose.
@@briskyoungploughboy think about all those elks in Europe running around for thousands of years not knowing they were actually moose. Good thing the Americans got things straight a few hundred years ago.... 🤣
This was a good episode and I enjoyed it, I’ll say it made me crack up watching JVB hunt with a 6.5 creed and spend the entire time taking about the 3006 and more time talking about the 7x57 than the cartridge actually used lol
Most used cartridge in Scottish Deer management is the .270 as it's the minimum calibre for stalkers on the Forestry Commission land, which cover a huge expanse of the Highlands.
Not true.
There is no minimum calibre in Scotland for deer, there is a minimum bullet mass and muzzle energy for Reds:
100 grains and 1,750 foot pounds (min muzzle velocity 2,450 feet per second)
I have consistently had success in the highlands with 3006 and 308. Both with 165 gr SGK. For European red deer like in Hungary during the rut I prefer the 3006 with 180gr.
Good, thx
Joseph is a great addition to the channel! Thanks for the great videos.
.348 Winchester 😲😀😊❤️ In a Model 71 Leveraction Winchester 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
I knew he was going to say the 275 Rigby (7x57). Rigby put out a beautiful (and not cheap) Highland Stalker 275 Rigby (as well as 30/06 I should add). Great video Ron and thanks for sharing.
7mm Mauser is a great cartridge. I'm surprised they haven't gone to the 7mm08.
I believe in Europe 7x57 is loaded to more modern pressures.
@K-bob_45 very true!
One of my brothers-an avid hunter- swears by the 7x57.
I would believe that two reasons are mainly responsible for it:
1) the 7x57 loaded to European CIP specs is much more on par with the 7mm-08 than the SAAMI equivalent is
2) the legal process of purchasing a new firearm is substantial and hunters don't get a new gun just because they feel like trying something new. Many European hunters will own and shoot only a handful of rifles throughout their hunting life. Cartridge trends might emerge and dissipate before the average hunter even remotely thinks about getting a new gun. Certainly, hunters will very unlikely upgrade just for marginal gains.
7mm 08 is rare in Europe, rifle makers aren't chambering for it and ammo hard to find.
7x57, .270, 6.5 SWE, -06, .308 etc much more common.
Well presented and very enjoyable video.
Thank you sir!
Gotta admit the two calibres l love are the 7x57 and the 30-06. I am a reloader and love the choice of bullets available for these cartridges. Great video and a memorable trip you took. Thanks!
I heard em gents! Til the .270 took over!
Nowadays the lasses that can't handle the crippling recoil of 270 find the 6.5 cm less painful.
With modern bullets and powders, plus a chamber design that makes it generally more accurate, there is no reason to not use the 6.5 Creedmoor. They stalked to about 200 yards, so why bother with a heavier/longer rifle and more recoil. With today's cartridges and bullets, I figure that you can drop down almost two cartridge sizes for the same on-game performance.
Well said! 👍🏼
Glad jfess replied and brought up Creedmoor. When I read 6.5 cm, my calculator behind my eyes started spinning out two and a half inches plus. I've been twisting nuts and bolts for decades and metric tools have been in the mix for most of the time, so I've been able to switch back and forth for a long time. 6.5 cm made me think he was saying centimeters, not Creedmoor.
@@JW...-oj5iw I think its safe to say that we can agree that a 6.5cm (2.56 inch) gun would kill an elk. A bit rough on the shoulder though!😁
Mexicans, in Puerto Rico, with Spanish Mausers?🤔😂
Let's call them Spanish
@@delbutler885 that would be like calling Americans Europeans, smart guy.
No there Mexicans, if there from Mexico,
It does, (and should) make a Mexican proud to be a Mexican, just like I’m proud to be an American,
Mausers españoles, en manos de españoles, y en la Cuba española.
@@ezequieljuliobadra9751 I stand corrected, Cuba...San Juan as a city stuck in my head.
I would dearly love to know what a hunting experience like this costs. I would imagine, with airfare, accommodations, taxidermy and freight it would be well into the $20,000 + range. Can anyone speak authoritatively to this?
Actually, much less than that! Including airfare but not taxidermy, you could do this hunt for $5,000 to $7,000.
Love my 7x64 Brenneke. Does just fine on Eland and Kudu in South Africa with a good hunting bullet.
Fantastic video, Ron. Thank you so much for sharing!
Just awesome video Ron!
Some may notice the suppressor. It's different in Europe and the United Kingdom.
The wildlife agencies "encourage" the use of suppressors. They are gentler on the game and surrounding areas. Causes vastly less noise and disturbance.
Though they do not maintain their gun ownership as we do, they are quite smart in game preservation. The suppressor disturbs the surrounding game much less.
Save, the lack of public access. It's all private estates except for very few areas / countries.
"When the mexicans were shooting at our boys when Theodore Roosevelt charged up San Juan Hill" 🤔
You DO know that the battle and war you are thinking of was the Spanish American war, in CUBA, and the people shooting 7mm mausers were SPANISH and CUBAN, not Mexican 😂😂
I wish we had elk it's the best tasting meat that I've ever had
I’m 15 days elk season opens!! But we use pointy sticks!
Lean meat, very good flavor.
You had better try some fallow. I like Elk but fallow is has an real OMG taste.
@@lyellclare9365 I'll have to try some
The real original elk cartridge was probably the 44-40
Haven’t you ever watched Jeremiah Johnson?
interesting video with great scenery. I’ll go with the 7x57 with 175 grain bullets loaded to at least original pressure which was 50,370 CUP in the ‘93 Mauser which translates to about 58,000 psi. Loaded with modern powders the 175 grain bullet can be propelled to almost 2600 fps. Check the numbers in the current Nosler manual and run them through the same ballistic calculator that Ron uses. Use Nosler Long Range Accubond (BC .648) or Partition (BC .519) sighted dead on at 250 yards. Sectional density is .310. Shoots flat enough for point blank range on US elk sized game for maximum effective point blank range of close to 300 yards. About 280 yards for whitetails or mule deer with smaller kill zone. Average energy for both bullets over 1775 ft lbs remaining at 300 yards.
Theodore Roosevelt NEVER CHARGED UP San Juan Hill! He and his dismounted Rough Riders tried charging up Kettle Hill which was in the vicinity of San Juan hill. They came tumbling back down with heavy losses inflicted by the Spanish troops using the original 173 grain round nose 7x57 military load in their model 93 and 95 Mauser rifles.
Right, and they aren’t being shot at by Mexicans either. lol
Would be interested in where your I fo on "original" pressure for the 7x57 come from...because it is widely disseminated that the '93 Mauser will not live at those pressures .
@@greywuufI've been trying to respond directly to your inquiry but can't get it to transfer. It was quite more detailed than what I posted as a general reply. Have you gotten anything from me?
@@greywuufSee my second comment..I can't seem to get it directly to you to answer your question to me about 7x57 pressures
Great hunt !
Very good clip.
Can you share the outfitter with me. Thanks
The 30-40 was “inspired by” the .303, and it wasn’t Mexicans shooting at Americans on San Juan Hill, it was Cubans and Spanish.
Was there a different in cooking the meat? Did they have a traditional recipe?
I'm guessing the 300 Savage
275 Rigby
First great deer cartridge is, 6.5x55.
More hunts on this channel like this would be awesome
Should have had the V8 known as 338 Lapua❤❤❤🎉😮🎉😂
I swear when I go to any sports shop the only rifles they have are chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor. And I can't find my ammo for what I shoot (7mm08) soon I'll have no choice to switch...
The 30-06 is a fantastic caliber. It does have some decent recoil though! It also depends on if you’re in an area where you can just tee off and shoot several shots, or you’re in an area where you have to shoot quick and you only get one shot. I believe a lot of different calibers would be fantastic for elk, including the 270. I will just add this from my experience, I believe the 243 and the 6.5x55 swede to be the most viable options when you consider the many factors, like meat damage, speed, precise hits, Recoil, follow up shots and the weight of a rifle that you have to pack around and Then possibly shoot in a hurry. My dad has used a SAKO 243 almost his entire life! He has killed many many elk, bear, mule deer, Blacktail deer, coyotes with this gun with very little to no issue. He taught me that you don’t need a big heavy caliber if you practice and you use shot placement and you take your time. The 243 does plenty of damage if you hit the right areas and sometimes even if you don’t hit the right areas it will still take them down, while offering very little recoil, extremely fast follow up shots, a wide array of bullet designs and incredible accuracy. The 6.5 x 55 Swede is right there as well with the distance capability, power(if you desire more), Low recoil and phenomenal accuracy. just my experience and opinions, but I’ve seen my dad shoot well over 400 yards even 500 yards at times with his 243 and take these animals down with one shot. Yes I know people will say they may not be enough power And that may be true in some situations but for the above things I mentioned I think these two calibers are perfect for elk
I would agree. The 243 is a very versatile and commonly used cartridge. The 6mm CM and 6.5CM seems to be the modernized versions in which it is becoming very popular for many reasons, but the 243 is still a classic that gets it done. For me, it's a toss up, 243 or 30-30. Those are my two favorite calibers for taking medium and large game. Had a 270, 30-06, and 8mm. Sold them all. Back then 30-30 and 243 were also cheap to shoot, but now days with supply and demand, the price difference is almost negligible.
500 yards with the 243? Cmon, man. Nobody is believing that.
@@toddk1377 well, I’m living proof of this. I saw my dad use his Sako 243 at least 4 times to complete this feat! Not saying that it’s a great idea for someone who is not the best shot or inexperienced!!! I’m more than comfortable with this shot with my Sako as well! If you don’t believe, it’s your right! Have a great day and practice your shooting
@@johnlocke_1
I can believe it, I've seen plenty of times guys out in Nebraska shoot deer at some impressive ranges using a 243. At the longer ranges, it's mostly shot placement and bullet type is critical as expansion will be very little if any, but if a single 5.56 can kill a man out to 800 yards basically just ice picking him, which has been confirmed by the Marines, I imagine a 243 can down a deer at that range. Is it ideal? Not really, would many believe it? Probably depends on their experiences. People wouldn't think a 7mm Mauser would down an elephant, but that's happened and successfully in the past. As far as making the shot at that range, it's very doable with a 243, I shoot 400 yards all the time and a 243 makes it easy compared to my AR's in 5.56/223 and has less drop than my x54R.
Thanks for taking us along for that fantastic creature. 1 well placed shot got the job done quickly.
Thanks! It was my privilege.
338-06 is a good one. But 7x57 is sufficient.
Loved the show. 30-06 is still a good cartridge. Like any hunt requires you to put the bullet where it counts. I would rather have a rifle that doesn’t recoil much than a rifle that beats my shoulder and I’m scared of it. This not being able to make my shot count. Shoot what you can handle. Put the bullet where it counts.
Norway 6,5x55!KJ before Swede . But .30-06 took over much when we joined Nato .
The 7x57 mauser and the 8x57 mauser you can kill anything my favorite calibers.
Dont sell the old 30-40 krag short either..
what would a day beinguided by senior guides [;us two gillies? what about the swede?
Joseph, I like your shell holder. Where did you find it? Thanks for sharing.
I would have thought as far as Scotland it would have been the .303 , 7.62x54 or even 7.65 Belgian(argentine) since those cartridges date back to the 1890's
The .303 tends to be loaded heavy and is a bit slow compared to 30-06. I would be surprised if the two metrics ever saw much use in the UK. Hunting is not an everyman's sport in the UK like it is in the USA. 7x57, a ballistic twin to 7mm-08, was popularized as .275 Rigby. Mauser Oberndorf supplied the barreled actions for Rigby. Birmingham Small Arms (BSA) made Enfields in .303. Parker-Hale got Mausers from various sources. Most you find in the USA are .30-06, no surprise, but I did see one in 7x57.
The excitement in his voice is something that never gets old. I’ve been in on over 30 big game kills and I get just as excited every time
Thanks Ron. This was awesome!
I went hunting in the Czech Republic in the 90s with a Ruger No. 1 with Mannlicher stock and 20" barrel and caliber 7x57mm. I shot a roe buck there at 180 m. 7x57 is a good hunting cartridge. I also had a pre-war Mauser in 7x57 (1937). In Sweden, moose were hunted with the Swedish 6.5x55 or 9.2x62. I remember my uncle went deer hunting with an original 8x57 Mauser system with a hunting stock. I am a German from Franconia and now live in Thailand
This is the right way to hunt!!!!!
Are you going to come back to New Zealand for a hunt again
I'd love to hunt New Zealand... planning a trip there next year!
The bugs look like a goddamn nightmare
My two Winchester model 1886 rifles in 33 Winchester centerfire say differently, came out in 1902. 😊
My Sauer Weatherby Mark V chambered in 7x64 has never let me down for Elk, Moose and big 4x4 Muleys. I drop down to my 270 Win Husqvarna for mainland Whitetail and Columbia Blacktail on Vancouver Island.
Those cartridges are a horse a piece in practical terms. You’re not “dropping down to a .270”. You’re simply switching to an almost identical cartridge for a different game animal because it helps you rationalize owning a bunch of guns chambered for different cartridges…it’s okay. We all do it.
That's a terrific cartridge... I have a friend that does a lot of leopard control in Africa. He's shot dozens with a 7x64. Loves it.
Love my old Husqvarna rifles ❤ Bill Ruger once said the husqvarna rifles were the best rifles ever made! I have been collecting rifles over 69 years and you know he just might be right!
@@leifhoklin2681 I get your meaning but my 7mm can push 180gr and while I don't reload for the 270, I likely wouldn't be able to use higher than 160? I have heard about the ne fast twist barrels and might look into that on my Husqy.
Yeah, I understand the 7mm can handle heavier bullets. The .270 Win will kill elk just fine with a bonded 150 grain, regardless of the lower SD. Hell, mono-metal bullets like the Barnes TTSX have eliminated most of the advantages the 7x64 Brenneke or .280 Remington have had over the .270 Winchester. Also, my self imposed range limit on game is 400 yards, and within that range, the .270 does everything I need it to do on all of the animals mentioned. I will concede that the 7x64, .280 REM, and 7mm REM mag are all far more capable at longer ranges with their heavier, high BC bullets. But as far as effectiveness is concerned, it is only a matter distance. If you’re going to shoot at game within 400 yards and want flat trajectory and light recoil, the .270 is really hard to beat. If you want to shoot heavier bullets and shoot at game beyond 400-500 yards, I think the 7mm Weatherby Magnum or 7 PRC would be my choice. Not that there aren’t more capable 7mm magnums (eg. 7mm STW, 7mm RUM, 28 Nosler), but I just don’t like muzzle brakes and I feel that the 7RM class of magnum are at about the upper threshold of my recoil tolerance in a hunting weight rifle. Glad you enjoy your Brenneke, though. It’s a great cartridge and very capable as you well know.
Great cartridge, but it's the 270 for me 🤠
7×57 Mauser. Still the best
06 as well then, can't argue either!
The 30 ought 6 is the best cartridge because it is just short of a magnum🎉😮🎉❤😂
Hornady used to make 150 grain lite magnums for 30:06 which pushed bullits about 200 to 300 ft/sec than a standard round ? I think they now call them superformance ?? Might have to read a little bit to confirm
Depends which magnum.
Are we talking .22 Win Mag or .416 Rem Mag?
😂
I cannot get over how the Scotsmen are dressed. That is awesome.
It sure is cool!
He'd be wearing no underpants if he's a purist 😂
The fat bloke is from South-West of England (by his regional accent)
6.5x55 swede
I think 30.30 Winchester but 6.5x55 would be my second guess.. just thinking of the time period late 1800s early 1900s it’s got to be one of those two cartridges..
@@henrygilliam8488 I was thinking 30-30 or 45-70 also in a earlier comment I think the 270 came a little to late to truly be the “ORIGINAL” elk cartridge.
Enjoyed the video greatly. Was surprised he was using a suppressed rifle. Figured that would be a no-no in Europe
I believe that suppressors are pretty much required for hunting in Europe. Why we regulate them is a mystery.
Oddly enough, most European countries use suppressors far more widely than the U.S. You can usually just walk into a hardware store and buy one off the shelf. Suppressor use is so common now in many countries that it's now considered impolite to show up to a shooting range without one!
Here in the UK we've been using suppressors (we call them moderators) for a long time and they're ubiquitous. It's fairly rare to see a British hunter without one. I've guided a good number of clients and am very grateful for the trend!
I just figured since they are so heavily regulated in gun happy US that they would be elsewhere too. Good for you!
Yes a DPT suppressor from New Zealand in this case😊
The thing with researching popular cartridges and origins in the UK is that they pretty much have a rather unique trajectory.
Most of Europe including the UK started with the popular carbine rifle cartridges develooed around the break of the last century, especially the 7mm and 8mm Mauser, but also the Swedish Mauser in 6.5mm -and last but by no means least, let's not forget the .303 British).
But the UK quickly moved to British hunting cartridges, the Rigbies and the likes. And with hunting being more than anywhere else in Europe a past-time of the wealthy, rifles were more often than not from bespoke master gunsmiths and often in very individual, if not exotic calibres. Sometimes even in-house calibres of that specific gunsmith. Truly marvelous craftsmanship. Which came with the respective price tag.
When that trend ended, the UK market turned to the US and used popular, mass-produced US calibres. American catridges are much more popular in the UK than in continental Europe.
The rest of Europe saw a rather different development. The next step after the "founding" cartridges were improvements of those, like the 7x64/7x56R, the 8x68, the 9.3s etc. and American cartridges, especially the ones that don't provide any advantage over the European equivalent had a hard time and still do. Why choose a .270, if you can pick between a 7x57 or a 7x65?
Why join the Creedmore hype, when the 6.5x55SE outperforms it on CIP specs?
The .30odd and the .308 are quite popula on the continent, though, as are some smaller game cartridges like the .222/.223
.270 is by far the most popular in Scotland. Flat shooting and decent amount of terminal energy..243 is pretty sunk at the moment as most game dealers are demanding copper bullets, and the minimum in Scotland is 100gr bullets - but they may make an exception for .243 to allow for copper. 7 PRC probably the most logical successor. Much better for midges later in the season in October.
Red Deer in the Continent are way bigger and heavier than in the UK.
In 1996 I was in Hungary on a military mission. My counterpart, who was a avid hunter, offered to take me to northern Hungary to his home town to a hunt. When we arrived at his hunting daca, I was given a Mauser rifle to hunt with. I was not expecting it to be in 30-06. I also did not expect the load to be 220 grain round nose bullets. He explained to me that was the best combination to go afield in that area because of the Russian Boars that dominated the surrounding area. I fired one shot and did take a nice stag that afternoon. We donated it to the village. That was a special experience.
The first “really efficient, authoritative, bottle neck cartridge…(bla, bla, bla) to take elk with authority” was the 30-06 of 1906? What about the 7.92×57mm Mauser cartridge of 1903? Is my math incorrect? And one could name half a dozen more.
30-40 k
I don't think that the spitzer version of that cartridge was available in the US before the 30-06 was developed. It was likely considered military-only for a while. In those days the US was not familiar with spitzer bullets and even the one used in the 30-06 was not so great.
The 1903 version was the spitzer version. The parent cartridge (1888) was the "round nose." And it was the first smokeless bottle nosed cartridge.@@jfess1911
Great Hunt !! 270 Win DOES IT ALL !! Hits harder than 6.5 Crd It's a necked down 30 06.. Which also very versatile !
Most important things to consider ? #1 Shot placement # 2 Bullet selection Bonded Bullets all day long
So shoot what you shoot well Practice !!!
“The 30-06 is one of the first truly great elk rounds. Today we are hunting with one of the most overrated, inadequate rounds we could find.”
I'm going to say .303 Savage. Probably wrong because of all the great European cartridges developed about the same time.
Why does the new guy talk so weird?
Sam Thompson is a mountain.
Nice plaid skirt
I suppose a sharps is the original cartridge, 58 hawkers might claim the original caliber for elk in the US.
Its like fricken golfing!
.275 Rigby. Not. 257.
Good show! Thanks for a great video, but it was the Spanish who opposed us in Cuba....
Makes one scratch their head when your "stalker" is wearing a three piece suit. 👍