I went over this same decision when I was looking at getting a Seawind. In the end I spoke to someone who's got the Yamaha outboards on his Seawind and he's really happy with them. He's based in Singapore and has sailed all over SE Asia in his boat and he's happy with the Yamahas since he can get parts and service nearly anywhere. He also has a Honda portable Gen set he uses and has only one type of fuel on board. He carries extra fuel for his outboards, generator and dinghy and often runs on one engine to extend range. He loves pulling the engines out of the water to reduce drag during sailing and he's always getting caught in fishing nets etc so pulling the props out and removing the stuff stuck to his props makes things easier. However, if he was living on the boat full time he'd get diesels. He only sails a few weeks at a time so the outboards work better for him in that situation.
After watching so many cruisers doing engine compartment yoga while sweating their balls off I feel like this category should carry additional weight under the quality of life category. Even the hassle of maintaining a folding prop verses an outboard prop is a big difference, not to mention the expense. A folding prop means carrying more spare parts, greases, zincs and prop coat too. When you're in crocodile water out in the middle of nowhere working on your prop while trying to not lose your tools and parts to Neptune your value scales tend to shift. I've been on the fence for what I would actually choose but can I say that I feel like I'd prefer a third option? It might be cool to have a decent sized gen set that is accessable for maintenance and two electric outboards. That way you eliminate most of the negatives of outboards while keeping most of the positives. If the Genset takes a dump on you then you're still in better shape than a monohull because you maintain some redundancy because the solar will provide electricity to run the electric outboards. Not enough to motor out of a no wind situation but enough to get in and out of an anchorage and set the hook. Aircon would be a nice bonus under this setup too. I know it isn't a perfect solution but I like the pro's vs con's a lot better. As a general philosophy I feel like the best part is no part. The less complex something is the better. Less holes in the boat for props and raw water is better. Less internal combustion engines to maintain is better. Less prop complexity, maintenance and parts is better. Unless a person enjoys engine compartment yoga, trying to get all kinds of parts while in the middle of nowhere, extra work during haul out, and spending tons of money.
I think you have hit the nail on the head. Everyone is saying Diesels but that's really been the only realistic option. Maintenance ease and cost is a big consideration. KISS - Keep it Simple Stupid
Diesels, for sure. Can't beat the fuel efficiency and increased range for travel. Your going to appreciate the tremendous amount of amps they can generate to charge your lithium battery bank.
I think the added weight outweighs the fuel savings, tbh. Factoring in the haul outs for the sail drives and other maintenance kind of dusts the whole $$ differential. Not factoring in the thousands saved by going outboard.
I wish I had known you were asking for input on outboards- we chose the outboards. We have found that the diesels run a knot slower under sail because of the drag/ weight. We have a diesel generator and outboard motors. We will be using the "inboard" space to hold our scuba equipment. We are also live-aboard, though we are coastal cruisers. Regardless of the engine, we recommend running only one unless necessary- it doesn't slow you down and you save so much fuel! (AND WELCOME TO THE SEAWIND FAMILY!!)
Thanks for the update. Diesels over outboard is the traditional response and I would agree wholeheartedly. To be honest, any inboard configuration ( even gas or electric) would be my preference over outboards. I think the better discussion is the relative merits of sail-drive vs a straight propeller shaft.
I would go diesel ! I have a Wharram cat with two Y 9.9 outboards… I am constantly cleaning carbs and desalting from sea spay up into the outboard sleds. The weak link in my vessel for sure.. congrats!!
Yep I think you made the right choice just the energy output alone makes this a no-brainer if you're living on board full time. The extra 400 NM range is a huge bonus and diesel engines are so much more reliable. You two are definitely on the right track, I can't wait to see you on your new boat!
Best way to keep spark plugs and carb clean, is unplugged your fuel line and run the fuel empty out of the carbs. I know that’s a hassle, but Honda recommends this with lawn mowers and weed wackers, so if you go with gas, you need to empty the lines and carbs.
The diesel would be my choice regardless of cost because of the charging capability and the extra torque or thrust. If you ever get into a tidal change with 6 knot currents and high winds the diesel pays for its self. That is an extreme but I have found it prudent to always plan for the worst. If cost is the final factor Then the outboards will work fine because I know you plan based on their capabilities. The big factor here is that you do get to make the choice. The new boat is coming.
I've had inboards and outboards over the years. I found that lifting my outboards out of the water when idle prevented the galvanic corrosion I experienced with drives that sat forever in the water.
Something you did not hit on is hull penetration for prop shafts. I have an I/O drive on my gas driven boat and I have had water leakage due to the shift cable boot. I completely understand your well thought out choice for inboard diesel. With outboards you have no potential leak points.
Have to wonder how many of the commenters have or do own a Seawind. I have owned a Seawind since 2012 and would point out they are designed from the ground up for outboards. Outboards with a long shaft and high thrust options. Mine has 12 inch elephant ear props. I have never had an issue driving the boat against current and wind with this set up. The placement of the outboards is well forward and the boat turns in it's own boat length 180 degrees. This is because the outboards are much farther forward than the saildrive is. Not only does the forward position aid in controlling the boat it also helps with cavitation. The biggest factor for me is what I will call sailing style. I looked at some of the peeps who have commented and they seem to have what I call condomarans which are often dissed because they motor so much. On the other hand on one three month cruise I would up using less than five gallons of gas in large part because I only used the outboards when anchoring to back down. Sure I was limited by the wind speed and direction in my choice of when I could make a passage. But as my Dad use to say 'a man in a hurry has no business with a sailboat'. For me it is a no brainer that outboards are a better choice. The huge advantage in being able to crabclaw the boat sideways to dock and the additional speed when sailing because the outboards are out of the water as well as no need for zincs because no metal is in the water (I have a composting head so no through hulls) far out weigh any fuel savings of a diesel; not to mention a huge cost savings.
You're right Tom. I wonder how many understand whether they are buying a 'sailing boat' or a motor boat with sails. Lin and Larry Pardey didn't even have a motor! Electric outboards with solar panels, a wind generator and lots of lithium batteries and i don't think you could go wrong today.
Good choice. I was part of a crew that moved an older Seawind from the west coast of Florida to the Miami boat show and back. Pushing into the wind going across Florida bay the outboards cavitation was a huge issue. The fuel fills where on the bridge deck and the vents were sketchy so we had to close up the hulls when fueling. The range was so poor we had ten Jerry cans lashed to the stern (which expanded in the sun and dripped )
I like having 3 identical motors. I lived on my own in the bush in BC and Nova Scotia/New Brunswich. Budget is key, but layers of protection are key as well.
We own a PDQ cat and I just changed out my two Yamaha 9.9 high thrust motors. The old ones lasted 17 years. We also run a 9.9 on our dinghy so can share spare parts mostly. Can’t beat the replacement cost! I would probably prefer diesels but I’m quite happy with my outboards! It would be nice to have more power generation however.
4 1/2 years with our 1160 Lite and Yamahas and I'm still very happy with that decision. That includes a fair # of blue water miles/long passages. The increased sailing speed + ability to clear a fouled prop have been the biggest benefits to date.
Hi Bob Scholtes. Good that you mention Speed while sailing, that is totally missed in this video. What do you experience as extra speeds with lifted outboards compared to the diesel saildrives? It's not only the drag, but also the weight.
Don't forget about grounding with the sail drive legs. The outboards will kick up in the event of grounding. I personally like the outboard option with lighter weight better sailing and the ability to carry more personal gear for cruising. Add a few solar panels to make up for the power needs.
Prop diameter has a big influence on the overall efficiency. You didn't mention this, but I suspect the diesel option comes with a larger prop diameter. This could make a big difference.
In my view, for liveaboard, adventuring, anchoring out sailors, the inboard has many advantages to offer. Not the least is hot water production for showering and dish rinsing, in addition to the electrical contribution, noise reduction, and range advantage, with a less volatile fuel.
I have a 24' catamaran. Originally, the outboard was slung over the back beam, on a swing arm to go the more than 2' down to the water. This combo was too heavy that far back, even with the 4hp 2 stroke engine. So much cavitation too. I moved location to under the centre of the bridge deck and mounted the new 9.9hp 4 stroke in a nacelle made from the front half of a Dart 18 racing cat hull, which hangs one foot clear of the water. No slaming. Cavitation only happens in steep chop. Obviously this was a weighty addition. But having replaced the165kg 'one piece' fibreglass bridge deck/back beam with foam core deck and aluminium truss back beam, I've actually saved weight! Pitching is less too. Happy days.
Ive had just about every kind of engine and it's Definitely worth having diesels when you're going through seas they don't bog down you don't have to keep adjusting the throttles
You should see what happened to the Gone with the Wynn’s lower cubbie, it snapped off during passage and they lost there life raft and were completely exposed to the ocean in there cabin area. It was about 3/4 videos ago, but this could happen to an outboard in ruff seas.
If we are talking 'what could happen, it is probably more likely that you sail over a log or container and rip out the saildrive. Having said that, I would go for the diesels as well for the same reasons mentioned.
@@carsonc1272 If the outboards did hit something I would think the leg release would bust before the mounting broke, which would allow the leg to pivot up. If you are talking about a life-raft pod breaking off, the Seawind doesn't have a underslung pod like the leopard. It looked like Gone with the Wynn's pod was held on with four 1/2 inch bolts which just broke.
I had a Yanmar saildrive in my 1984 sailbost.. it was a 2GM.. had the boat for 20 years. Never failed me. I'm a fan of Yanmars. Those are very good outboards, but if affordable.. I would go diesel.. yes, a lot easier to repower with the outboard, but with a Yanmar, repowering isn't likely
Great presentation. I go by a simple rule.."buy cheap, buy twice" In the long run your investment in diesels will pay for the difference. Having large alternates being a big component of your overall electrical system is great. You hear all the time on sailing channels people upgrading to larger alternators, and not installing a full generator system. Good choice !!!!
What does this even mean? The Yamahas and Honda outboards are most likely more reliable and definitely come with far less maintenance. I get the alternator part but not the other stuff
You made the right choice. Most items/options, you can add later, after you're sailing. The diesels obviously need to be part of the initial build. So ya, good choice! Good luck with the sail drives. Obviously a straight shaft would be simpler and more robust, but it is what it is. Hopefully they will be trouble free or as trouble free as sail boat stuff can be. 😀
We have the outboards on our 1160Lite. You have converted all of the points very well. We cruised last season in Mexico. We are very happy with the additional sailing speed. We have the Honda 2200 generator and that has covered all of our power needs. We did just upgrade and double the solar capacity. That should reduce our time running the generator. Another purpose of an inboard is to heat up water. We have the propane on demand water heater and love it. The only time I would have liked to have the inboard diesels was our trip north from Mexico to California doing the Baja Bash. The downsides were fuel consuming/range and noise. We survived and I would do it again. We do plan on doing a pacific crossing, or canal transit. We will be pushed to sail more and be patient when need be. It is a sailboat, and a very good sailing boat at that.
Diesels for a full time live aboard situation. The electrical generating capability and fuel availability when traveling away from the US are my primary reasons.
Hello crew, My 36 foot cat had a single 18 hp 4 stroke outboard, it did cavitate too much. I would go diesel engines, or electric when it gets affordable ! Sail on.
Good call on diesel for your plans and boating lifestyle. Have cruised cats with both, my thoughts after the fact: Diesel- The right choice for full time, go anywhere, working from the boat, air con, potential world cruiser. Yamaha outboard- The right choice for weekend warriors, Bahamas cruisers, potential longer term Caribbean adventures. The advantage of powering your dingy with a 3rd outboard of the same type adds a lot of redundancy.
Definitely diesel - saildrive props stay where they're needed during really bad sea conditions and the diesel alternator amps are needed for quicker recharging. ;-)
@@thenarrator1984 it's a saildrive not a shaft through hull. Saildrives are sealed just like the lower unit of an outboard with non moving gaskets, not seals. They don't leak unless you rip one off.
@@h2opcs That's the issue with sail drives on Seawinds. Hitting large debris will dislodge the seals and flood the ENTIRE hull, not just the engine compartment as its not isolated from the hull.
@@h2opcs Steve you are a bit confused here, saildrive engine are a shaft through Hull but in a different way than the normal inboard engine, however they need to be installed in a watertight compartment like normal inboard engine but instead the propulsion to be horizontally is vertical, mainly like a thruster leg. The outboard engine are encapsulated and watertight so that is the reason why they called outboard, they can installed in an open compartment.
I've got 45 years sailing experience including 25 years living aboard currently. Diesels every time. The diesel also gives you the option of hydrolic anchor winches and a hydrolic garbage crusher...
They definitely have their pro/con for each engine option. I can see someone going with the outboards if this was gonna be their weekend boat to go cruise around and what. For full time living with plans to cross the oceans the diesel definitely makes more sense for fuel availability, range, consumption, and their ability to charge up the house batteries much quicker. Not to mention you get more fuel onboard and more weight down low with the diesel option. It is a no brainer as they'll pay for themselves over their lifetime and in resale down the road. Having to haul the boat out for maintenace on the sail drives shouldnt be that big a factor seeing how you should probably be hauling the boat out every 1-1.5yr if you are full time and/or using it heavily to make sure the bottom is in good shape, clean and scrub, and repaint as needed. For your goals the diesel was the right choice for sure! Looking forward to the video about the electrical system and Billy's plans for the size and batteries he plans on using.
My wife and I had this conversation many years ago and like you we opted for diesel. We have never regretted that decision. The reliability and power verses fuel consumption made the extra thousands in cost we'll worth it. Proper maintenance is key to longevity.
You guys made the right decision in my opinion. The fuel range is a big consideration and getting gasoline that is quality in parts of the world is a problem. I know that in remote areas diesel is pretty bad but filter out the water and trash and your good to go.
With the for and against outboard verses inboard i would have one inboard one outboard then you got the best of both worlds but being serious Yamar is the way to go
Definitely go the Yanmar/SailDrive route. I race on a Beneteau 36.7 with the Yanmar/SailDrive combo and it works great, even in reverse. I would recommend a feathering or folding prop to reduce the drag and the chance of snagging seaweed or lines.
You could add the high output alternators to the diesel engines and allow the standard alternators to charge the engine starter batteries only. Secondly the diesel prop drag may be used to your advantage for your lithium house batteries regeneration if the fold back propellers are installed.
A few thoughts It is too bad that the Sillette Sonic outdrives are no longer available. Yes they had their problems but 2 of them each attached to a 20 hp diesel would give you the best of both worlds- diesel power, fuel efficiency, high amp output combined with long leg drive that can be lifted out of water and not needing as an intrusive of a pod. I continue to be amazed at the price of marine diesels. The name brands command a premium price and I am glad to see they are getting some competition by some new "marinized" diesel co's . Too bad the cat maker doesn't give you a few diesel maker options. Some cruisers have even gone to using Chinese made diesels for a refit.
Torqueedo has a great solution for that boat. And it's the best imo. Allowing the advantages of the outboards, but also the benefits that diesel genset as an extra layer of redundancy
Thank you for a very informative video. I currently have a 1985 cruiser with twin diesels. In years to come diesel may be harder to come by and much more expensive. As I aim to use my boat primarily on inland waterways and canals, i would look at replacing the engines with full electric ones combined with large battery bank and solar panels.
Great informative video. I'm looking at a Seawind 1190. I'm looking at electrical engines. There are lots of reasons. I will be having extra solar panels. So I hope.never to carry fuel and all the spares required for fuel engine. No problems. Each time you start your desiel engine you need to do a wobbles check Starboard side you need to lift the bed to do the check This will be come very tiring As access is difficult It also allows me to carry extra water . 1000 litres of water means I don't need a water maker. I'm also not having gas for cooking. With an all electric boat it will be cheaper to run. Just saving the problems created to obtain fuel to me is worth it
You guys are all over this. Just sold my SW. Thanks for driving up the resale $👍. Negatives we experienced with outboards:- cramped working space. Cavitation in rough conditions. Pros:- Legs lift out of the water, no anodes, cheap to replace, low weight, less thru-hulls. What are we looking for now? Either but, we are coast hoppers. If we were ocean crossers, I think we'd be looking at inboards. The leveller is the sail drive. Not a fan. Would prefer shaft drives. You are going to love your 1160.
Since you guys are full time liveaboards, I agree the diesels are the way to go, for electrical generation, range, etc. if I were going to use the boat as a coastal cruiser, daysail and maybe a week or two cruise every summer, it’d be a lot harder to justify the diesels.
yea there are even full solar powered cats out there without any sailes i also think a combined solution would be an option these days especaly on cats a cat got more deckspace for larger solar arrays with a regen system like uma ist testing with the ocenvolt servo prop and 2 of them on a cat and the higher speed cats can go you can regen more while on the travel under sails and now i would add a generator to the setup who can sustain your cruising speed electrical needs and maybee also charge at the same time (didnt do any maths regarding this). there are realy quiet generator systems out there you can place them on the boat more freely and encapsulate them better, getting it out of the way or on a easy to interchange access port you have now best of both worlds. i am not sure there is such a setup anywhere
@@Total_Egal UMA has as many solar panels as they have, they first added a wind generator but did not charge much, Then they decided to take a portable petrol generator because they are approaching the north pole and the panels do not receive the right amount of sun because of the weather and an always cloudy sky
i would go with the diesels. you gave so many good PROS AND CONS, i really had to think. what i didn't really understand was, is it going to be a twin screw. also the diesels looked easy enough to get to and work on. also they put out lots of amps for charging your batteries. now as far as AC goes, i wouldn't own a boat like yours w/o it.
not a sailing boater, but a motor boater, and a massive outboard fan. I started this thinking outboards of course but you convinced me you made the right decision.
Bummer on the build delay! Our world is so screwed up with the Covid, you just have to learn patience! So glad you have decided on the Diesel engines. Your explanation of the options just helped you make this very important choice and, in the long run, should pay out Big time, especially if/when you sell. Loved your ending “out takes”! It shows how you kids are real and do disagree sometimes. Remind us every once in awhile any wedding plan ideas. We are so looking forward to that event!
Covered most issues, biggest issue of the 1260 is it seems like its just on the hub of being able to carry a little more weight and a little more solar, but may be not quite enough (guess I can say that for any situation)..... beaching and shallow draft can also be a consideration ..... but my ultimate choice would be a single diesel parallel hybrid electric shaft drive with a matched electric drive in the other hull....if only this was an option! However in your case I think the diesels are the best available choice, electrical generation is important ...... you should really check out 'Safiery' and their 'Scotty' battery charging technology.
You made a great choice in picking diesel engines. You will need them to charge the batteries in higher latitudes. I prefer the engines in the middle of the boat with shaft drive but that's not an option.
I'd go with the Yamahas + 2 Yamaha 2400 gas generators, and 2 or 3 (cheap $200 ea.) 5,000 BTU AC units, the saloon is only 100 square feet, so it is easy to cool. When the OBs wear out, convert them to electric, add more lithium batteries and all the solar panels you have room for. I would remove 1/2 the back rest of the bench seat in front of the galley so it is more open to the saloon. Today you see big center consoles with multi outboards, carrying 800+ gallons of gas without issue. Enjoy the journey!
One thing you didn’t mention but with an inboard engine you get free domestic hot water using a loop through a hot water heater from the engine cooling system.
Thank you for an entertaining video. I see your point picking diesels ....I just don't like saildrives....but if you live aboard the power generation capabilities of diesels will outweigh in the saildrives maintenance issues.
A diesel typically runs a minimum of about four to five times longer than a gas outboard before needing major overhaul or replacement. If you run the engines fairly regularly, outboards can be worn out much sooner than one would expect.
I was recently researching large outboards (200 HP) so I don't know if this carries over to small outboards too but, the data says outboards that are run regularly in some commercial operation or water taxi last about 4000 hours or double the hours of a private party who uses their outboard less regularly. I think the Tula crew would be in the category of low frequency usage and short duration when used meaning shortest life in total hours. So the Diesel choice is a good one for range, performance, reliability, longevity and yes, economy over the long term. 10K hours for a very well taken care of and maintained Yanmar vs. 2K hours for an outboard....I guess the 5 times the price thing actually makes sense. The Yanmar engine will easily do 10K hours but the "cooling systems"on the Yanmar requiring maintenance and regular checking and cleaning can quickly kill any diesel motor regardless of hours on it.
@@richardhobbs7107 Agreed Richard and these guys definitely prefer sailing to motoring. But I think this video was mostly about motors and motoring...thus my non-sailing comment in this particular video. If the next video is about electronics, I'll probably comment about electronics...I know, I'm kind of crazy.
@@timhardman4764 - I liked your comment especially concerning the cooling system for a diesel being so important. For me I would prefer the outboards for the redundancy , lower cost , sailing efficiency with them tilted up , & ease of beaching the boat & shallow water sailing . I read somewhere most sailboats are motorboats with auxiliary sails in actual practice . . . .
Lmao, your outakes were hilarious. Options for my mindset is Luke this. I hate outboards, having said that I also owned any newer than my 1992 merc. You said you could get the same motor for your dinghy and that would be swappable but of course you'd have to change the lower unit as the dinghy would be a short leg. Now as I am a trucker, equipment operator to me diesel is tge only option and the pros far out weigh the cons. Having spent thousands of hours behind the din of a reliable diesel I am most comfortable with them to make sure I get there and back. Yes higher cost but greater reliability and since I have spent so many hours listening to equipment noise is huge for me. As quiet as possible is best for the long hours of running. Never understood my buddies with there loud pipes. I think you've made the right choice as resale is a huge factor. P.s. that shot of Jetty yawning was priceless. Lol.
Ok Billy and Sierra, you knew I had to comment. On Sunburst I had twin Honda 15's for 20 years. I had speed props and maxed out at 10kts, 8kts into 50kt winds. The motors were 12ft apart 8ft from the transforms. They never cavitated. If they had ever failed me I could have taken them to get repaired. The only problem was the poor wiring and reverse was week with those props. I have repowered with 9.9 Suzuki with high thrust props, they really stop but top speed is only 8.5kts. The most important feature is they are fuel injected. As to economical the Hondas at 7kts burned half gallon of cheaper gas an hour, I don't know yet about the Suzuki but it takes 35 min to burn the fuel in the engine after disconnecting the hose. My big deal is who can repair the engine and where. Natives in the islands seldom have diesels but all of them have obs. Also I don't want anything under my boat that needs repair or could leave a hole. Most of the comments about obs are very outdated. The new keyboards are really something!
Love your channel. I would increase your battery bank and go with electric. I was just watching a video where there were charging the batteries with hydro generation while sailing. The extra batteries would let you go totally electric on the boat. I'm sure you will be talking about solar generation later. Keep up the good work.
What a blast making choices for a new boat!!! Our Max44SC will be completed Oct 2022 in Vietnam so may see you around, SV Stray Kitty. Get the diesel. You need large alternators to keep up with the boats electrical needs, 1/4 the fuel with diesel, easier and safer fuel storage, 3x life expectancy, way cheaper maintenance. If you can get the Hybrid Yanmar or Beta that is even better. Happy Cruising.
Too get a faster boat,, make the Engine Bays big enough to get a 300hp Yamaha in each hull.. That way Sierra would not need A/C anymore... Love your channel ..
Since you will have 2 alternators from the 2 diesel engines, and seemingly enough power to charge your house batteries and extra, and also wants to avoid 2 different fluids for power, maybe go for an *electric outboard on your dingy?* I'm not sure a set up like Uma with solely electric power for the yacht is economically smart/possible yet, but more in line with what Rick Moore did on Sophisticated Lady - changed from gas to electric outboard. Ofc, this is given you only use the dingy for light/slow travel and get enough speed kick from sailing your cat at 15 knots and not least the kites and other toys you have.
Diesels are hard to beat if your going to sail Bluewater which I know you are and long passages! If your a coastal sailing mostly then 25hp Yamaha all day with a or a massive 1500w solar array, with Lithium battery bank and a little Honda generator!
Wish I had such tough decisions to make. The 600 mile range of the diesels and storage space where you can use it are some pretty compelling reasons. I hope you enjoy the new boat!
You made the right decision in my view. I have a 54 HP Yanmar in my boat and I absolutely love it. The boat, (and the engine) is 15 years old, so far I have no issues with it. (knock on wood). I had in the other hand, more problems with the outboards that we use in the dinghy for example. The range and electrical production alone makes it worth it, the extra weight of the diesels, plus the fact that are infinitely repairable, like you proved in the Bahamas. So, to me, no questions about it. Diesels all the way......keep that fuel clean, and you will have no problems!
Makes sense to pay for diesel up front and recoup some of the cost in other ares, areas you can add on later as funds allow. The usage of power would be the great benefit as liveaboards.
Good decision, I’ve been using outboards my entire life; if I was planning on cruising around world I sure wouldn’t have faith on 2 kickers to do that, us locals here say; outboards are good until you really need them
live aboard traveling cruiser , its pretty simple diesel. hey if you are just a weekender / holidays or don't plan to travel far or much, the outboards will ge the job done.
For my personal preference I'd go with two electric outboards, say the epropulsion 6kw (and add an induction cooker in the kitchen). Advantages: 50% weight savings to the petrol outboards, much higher recuperation (up to 1000w at 10 knts.), no noise, basically maintenace free, off grid solution. Drawback is far less range and less top speed. But if you're living on the boat and/or are a circumnavigator these drawbacks don't matter, since you're not on a schedule. And since the epropulsion allow third party batteries, you can put on your diy lifepo battery for dirt cheap.
I think the most obvious thing you didn't discuss was beaching with either motor.........that's a huge point considering maintenance, cleaning the hull, possible grounding etc......maybe add this in future.
In my world safety is foremost in a off-shore marine environment. Due to that I would probably go for the diesels for their range and reliability. I realize that they weight 842 lbs more than the outboard with full fuel but it weight really that much of a factor when the overall weight of the boat is factored in. I realize it's your boat and your call but if you get de-masted range can be a real issue. You're both pretty smart so I'm sure you'll make the best decision your situation.
I say you made the right choice with the Yanmar diesel. I had an older version of the exact same engine (3ym30) on my 36 ft monohull sailboat and it was a very dependable workhorse. I motored a lot, anytime the winds were not favorable I didn't hesitate to turn on that engine. I spent 5 yrs mostly to/from and through the Bahamas every winter for 5 months a season. I kept an accurate fuel log and that engine consistently used 0.6 gal per hour, running at 2200-2400 rpm.
for your tender the 25Hp outboard has 3 cylinders so the unit will not have to works as hard under load. the 25Hp will connect to the NMEA2000 network so instruments will come up on a chartplotter is fitted. Also consider a 4 blade propeller as well for lower rpm efficiency but you will need to look at the manufacturers chart for the size, pitch and model number. regards. For the main vessel have you considered going to a full 24 volt DC system over a 12V DC system
Diesel engine, not a big issue in Florida but a diesel cabin heater is a nice dry hot heat. Plus the stability of diesel fuel vs gas and the easier water removal and usability from diesel fuel
Very relevant to us as we’re having a performance cat built for liveaboard, however we’re going with outboards. Reasons in no particular order: - WEIGHT. Our boat is very light and we should be able to sail wind speed easily from 3/4kn true. Adding ~350kg is a non-starter. - DRAG/EFFICIENCY. Our outboards are mounted in the hulls and pivot up with a ‘plug’ going into the hole leaving a perfectly smooth hull. This also removes the cavitation and noise problems. According to our designer/builder (who has built 20+ of these, some diesels and some outboards) you can fit a much more efficient prop (no need to worry about drag or have folding one) and you gain back in thrust efficiency the lower power/fuel efficiency. In their experience you get similar range for only a slightly larger fuel load. We can also specify, within reason, the size of the tanks as it isn’t a production build with limited options. - MAINTENANCE. In the event of a serious issue you just (!) lift out the outboard and take it ashore. Also no issue with cleaning props etc. - BACKUP & OPTIONS. having the ability to swap out with the dinghy is useful, but also the ability to potentially swap for an electric outboard when the technology becomes suitable. This might become increasingly necessary as diesel is starting to be banned in certain places. We are pondering one electric and one petrol/gas at some point. To me the biggest single issue is electricity production, that is clearly where diesel is miles ahead. We’re aiming to mitigate by having a lot of solar (the boat is 15.2m with a high aspect ratio main and thus short boom so more space to put panels) and LI batteries, plus a hydro-generator and a back-up portable generator (petrol/gas) if required. We’ll be in the tropics, this might not work in higher latitudes. Also we have no a/c but will have all electric cooking and no propane.
For me I'd go diesel. I like that its in a dry area of the boat to work on it runs an alternator by its self. smother ride. Having two power plants on board is security. Weekend warrior outboards long term warrior diesel.
The biggest drawbacks to the inboard saildrives are twofold to my knowledge. 1. Drag when under sail. Even with a folding prop, you'll have the drag of the drive pillar. 2. Potential damage. I've heard some horror stories of people running over a log or other obstacle and actually ripping the saildrive right out of the bottom of the hull causing flooding. If you had decided to go with the outboards, you could get a small portable gas generator for recharging the batteries.
Availability of gasoline at the dock can be an issue in some places too. If your'e cruising the world, hauling gas in jugs, if you can find it, would be a huge pain.
Definitely diesels. I would not even consider outboards. My first reason is to avoid the kaboom factor that comes with having lots of gas on board. Another big consideration is keeping outboards running if you do any offshore sailing. The outboard mounts look like they would be suceptable to flooding the outboards in rough conditions in addition to the cavitation problem you mentioned. The charging difference is also a huge consideration unless you plan to cover the boat with solar panels. You will need the extra power production to run the washer and AC anyway.
Great video, and are some good options. I can see the outboards on a boat being used locally and not being sailed more than a couple of hundred miles from it's home port. But for a serious cruising vessel diesel if the only option. Though you didn't mention the differences in fuels as diesel can also be used to heat hot water through a hydronic heating system. as well as used to heat the boat in some more northern climates. Gasoline has a much evaporates too quickly creating a fire hazard which is never good on a boat, where as diesel fuel doesn't evaporate as quickly and has a higher flash point making it safer.
Hi guys, the one point I would make is the availability of fuel. In my experience diesel is much more readily accessible than petrol / gasoline in most parts of the world. The other question I was going to ask was whether you considered Electric propulsion instead of diesel/gasoline engines as cats give you a much bigger area to mount solar panels on, but knowing your attention to detail you probably plan to cover this topic in the future. Regards Mike 🇨🇮
In 5-6 years all new cats will have electric drives. The problem right now is the cost is $800/kWh just for the batteries. This is down from $1000/kWh just a year ago and we're just now seeing the packs get to $300/kWh without the BMS system but they should eventually get to $200/kWh soon with BMS. That might seem like an impossible price, but EVs are starting to use LiPo4 chemistry a lot more and it will drive the price way down. That would mean you could get 63kW/5,000amps of power for the same ~2000lbs of weight as the yanmars. Pair that with a big 2k watt array and you would have unlimited power for all but the worst passages.
Why not go with a 4th option of putting a pair of Oceanvolt Servo Prop saildrives and have a large generator for a range extender when needed. Then you only have one engine to maintain with the regeneration capabilities while under sail.
Most marinas only offer diesel and to get gasoline you may have to go to a gasoline station and fill up via jerry cans. Also diesel will be more efficient and the alternator will recharge the batteries quicker. The only pros of having an outboard is if you get a mechanical issue in a remote location - it is easier to replace an outboard or find spare parts for an outboard + an outboard is cheaper to replace + two less holes through the hull to worry about. Personally I would spend the extra 20K and go with the diesel engines. Also the option to have the LPG hot water heating system is also a good option since you don't have to worry about running out of hot water when having a shower, etc and having to run the engines for hot water.
Hi Tula, I met you guys in Green Turtle a few springs ago. 42 ft Chris White Cat, German Shepard dog if that jogs your memory. I have those Yanmars 3YM 30 AE, they are great motors, very little drag when sailing with Flex-O-Fold 2 blades. Light air motor sailing 1-2 liters per hour with only one engine running. Research the alternator temp limits with lithium’s if you haven’t already. The Yanmars are a bit expensive to maintain parts wise if you follow their recommendations, which I do. Thanks for all the great videos. Ciao
I think it's good that you're going to end up with the diesel engines as much travel as you do the engines will be just fine but if you were just running around local the 25 horse will be just fine and you guys have a blessed day
Diesel for sure . That added range can be a life saver for extensive off shore sailing. Racing is fun and less weight from outboards would be an issue there but, how often would you race anyway?
I went over this same decision when I was looking at getting a Seawind. In the end I spoke to someone who's got the Yamaha outboards on his Seawind and he's really happy with them. He's based in Singapore and has sailed all over SE Asia in his boat and he's happy with the Yamahas since he can get parts and service nearly anywhere. He also has a Honda portable Gen set he uses and has only one type of fuel on board. He carries extra fuel for his outboards, generator and dinghy and often runs on one engine to extend range. He loves pulling the engines out of the water to reduce drag during sailing and he's always getting caught in fishing nets etc so pulling the props out and removing the stuff stuck to his props makes things easier. However, if he was living on the boat full time he'd get diesels. He only sails a few weeks at a time so the outboards work better for him in that situation.
After watching so many cruisers doing engine compartment yoga while sweating their balls off I feel like this category should carry additional weight under the quality of life category. Even the hassle of maintaining a folding prop verses an outboard prop is a big difference, not to mention the expense. A folding prop means carrying more spare parts, greases, zincs and prop coat too. When you're in crocodile water out in the middle of nowhere working on your prop while trying to not lose your tools and parts to Neptune your value scales tend to shift. I've been on the fence for what I would actually choose but can I say that I feel like I'd prefer a third option? It might be cool to have a decent sized gen set that is accessable for maintenance and two electric outboards. That way you eliminate most of the negatives of outboards while keeping most of the positives. If the Genset takes a dump on you then you're still in better shape than a monohull because you maintain some redundancy because the solar will provide electricity to run the electric outboards. Not enough to motor out of a no wind situation but enough to get in and out of an anchorage and set the hook. Aircon would be a nice bonus under this setup too. I know it isn't a perfect solution but I like the pro's vs con's a lot better.
As a general philosophy I feel like the best part is no part. The less complex something is the better. Less holes in the boat for props and raw water is better. Less internal combustion engines to maintain is better. Less prop complexity, maintenance and parts is better. Unless a person enjoys engine compartment yoga, trying to get all kinds of parts while in the middle of nowhere, extra work during haul out, and spending tons of money.
I think you have hit the nail on the head. Everyone is saying Diesels but that's really been the only realistic option. Maintenance ease and cost is a big consideration. KISS - Keep it Simple Stupid
yes, i would say se same! electric outboards is the best under sail.
Diesels, for sure. Can't beat the fuel efficiency and increased range for travel. Your going to appreciate the tremendous amount of amps they can generate to charge your lithium battery bank.
I think the added weight outweighs the fuel savings, tbh. Factoring in the haul outs for the sail drives and other maintenance kind of dusts the whole $$ differential. Not factoring in the thousands saved by going outboard.
I wish I had known you were asking for input on outboards- we chose the outboards. We have found that the diesels run a knot slower under sail because of the drag/ weight. We have a diesel generator and outboard motors. We will be using the "inboard" space to hold our scuba equipment. We are also live-aboard, though we are coastal cruisers. Regardless of the engine, we recommend running only one unless necessary- it doesn't slow you down and you save so much fuel! (AND WELCOME TO THE SEAWIND FAMILY!!)
Good to know Barbara... How do you feel about the engine noise?
Thanks for the update.
Diesels over outboard is the traditional response and I would agree wholeheartedly.
To be honest, any inboard configuration ( even gas or electric) would be my preference over outboards.
I think the better discussion is the relative merits of sail-drive vs a straight propeller shaft.
I would go diesel ! I have a Wharram cat with two Y 9.9 outboards… I am constantly cleaning carbs and desalting from sea spay up into the outboard sleds. The weak link in my vessel for sure.. congrats!!
Yeah, Diesel - if nothing else it's not a combustable. Gasoline fumes on the other hand...
Yep I think you made the right choice just the energy output alone makes this a no-brainer if you're living on board full time. The extra 400 NM range is a huge bonus and diesel engines are so much more reliable. You two are definitely on the right track, I can't wait to see you on your new boat!
I always say the correct number of holes drilled in your hull is 0
Best way to keep spark plugs and carb clean, is unplugged your fuel line and run the fuel empty out of the carbs. I know that’s a hassle, but Honda recommends this with lawn mowers and weed wackers, so if you go with gas, you need to empty the lines and carbs.
Newer 2 stroke outboards are direct injection. No oil burn (smoke) as the exhaust valve isn’t exposed when the fuel gets into the cylinder.
The diesel would be my choice regardless of cost because of the charging capability and the extra torque or thrust. If you ever get into a tidal change with 6 knot currents and high winds the diesel pays for its self. That is an extreme but I have found it prudent to always plan for the worst. If cost is the final factor Then the outboards will work fine because I know you plan based on their capabilities. The big factor here is that you do get to make the choice. The new boat is coming.
I've had inboards and outboards over the years. I found that lifting my outboards out of the water when idle prevented the galvanic corrosion I experienced with drives that sat forever in the water.
Something you did not hit on is hull penetration for prop shafts. I have an I/O drive on my gas driven boat and I have had water leakage due to the shift cable boot. I completely understand your well thought out choice for inboard diesel. With outboards you have no potential leak points.
Have to wonder how many of the commenters have or do own a Seawind. I have owned a Seawind since 2012 and would point out they are designed from the ground up for outboards. Outboards with a long shaft and high thrust options. Mine has 12 inch elephant ear props. I have never had an issue driving the boat against current and wind with this set up. The placement of the outboards is well forward and the boat turns in it's own boat length 180 degrees. This is because the outboards are much farther forward than the saildrive is. Not only does the forward position aid in controlling the boat it also helps with cavitation. The biggest factor for me is what I will call sailing style. I looked at some of the peeps who have commented and they seem to have what I call condomarans which are often dissed because they motor so much. On the other hand on one three month cruise I would up using less than five gallons of gas in large part because I only used the outboards when anchoring to back down. Sure I was limited by the wind speed and direction in my choice of when I could make a passage. But as my Dad use to say 'a man in a hurry has no business with a sailboat'. For me it is a no brainer that outboards are a better choice. The huge advantage in being able to crabclaw the boat sideways to dock and the additional speed when sailing because the outboards are out of the water as well as no need for zincs because no metal is in the water (I have a composting head so no through hulls) far out weigh any fuel savings of a diesel; not to mention a huge cost savings.
You're right Tom. I wonder how many understand whether they are buying a 'sailing boat' or a motor boat with sails. Lin and Larry Pardey didn't even have a motor! Electric outboards with solar panels, a wind generator and lots of lithium batteries and i don't think you could go wrong today.
Tom - They talked about the slap underneath, how loud or often was that and in what kind of seas?
Good choice. I was part of a crew that moved an older Seawind from the west coast of Florida to the Miami boat show and back. Pushing into the wind going across Florida bay the outboards cavitation was a huge issue. The fuel fills where on the bridge deck and the vents were sketchy so we had to close up the hulls when fueling. The range was so poor we had ten Jerry cans lashed to the stern (which expanded in the sun and dripped )
I like having 3 identical motors. I lived on my own in the bush in BC and Nova Scotia/New Brunswich. Budget is key, but layers of protection are key as well.
We own a PDQ cat and I just changed out my two Yamaha 9.9 high thrust motors. The old ones lasted 17 years. We also run a 9.9 on our dinghy so can share spare parts mostly. Can’t beat the replacement cost! I would probably prefer diesels but I’m quite happy with my outboards! It would be nice to have more power generation however.
4 1/2 years with our 1160 Lite and Yamahas and I'm still very happy with that decision. That includes a fair # of blue water miles/long passages. The increased sailing speed + ability to clear a fouled prop have been the biggest benefits to date.
Hi Bob Scholtes.
Good that you mention Speed while sailing, that is totally missed in this video. What do you experience as extra speeds with lifted outboards compared to the diesel saildrives? It's not only the drag, but also the weight.
@@PieterOskam We've sailed with other 1160's with the diesels and are usually at least 1/2 to 1 kt faster for same sail plan and point of sail.
Curious if you still own the 1160?
Don't forget about grounding with the sail drive legs. The outboards will kick up in the event of grounding. I personally like the outboard option with lighter weight better sailing and the ability to carry more personal gear for cruising. Add a few solar panels to make up for the power needs.
Good choice :-)
I would have done the same, the most important pros for me would be
1. Range
2. Electricity production
3. Noise
Prop diameter has a big influence on the overall efficiency. You didn't mention this, but I suspect the diesel option comes with a larger prop diameter. This could make a big difference.
Excellent point Gary
In my view, for liveaboard, adventuring, anchoring out sailors, the inboard has many advantages to offer. Not the least is hot water production for showering and dish rinsing, in addition to the electrical contribution, noise reduction, and range advantage, with a less volatile fuel.
I have a 24' catamaran. Originally, the outboard was slung over the back beam, on a swing arm to go the more than 2' down to the water. This combo was too heavy that far back, even with the 4hp 2 stroke engine. So much cavitation too. I moved location to under the centre of the bridge deck and mounted the new 9.9hp 4 stroke in a nacelle made from the front half of a Dart 18 racing cat hull, which hangs one foot clear of the water. No slaming. Cavitation only happens in steep chop. Obviously this was a weighty addition. But having replaced the165kg 'one piece' fibreglass bridge deck/back beam with foam core deck and aluminium truss back beam, I've actually saved weight! Pitching is less too. Happy days.
Ive had just about every kind of engine and it's Definitely worth having diesels when you're going through seas they don't bog down you don't have to keep adjusting the throttles
Think we agree too!
You should see what happened to the Gone with the Wynn’s lower cubbie, it snapped off during passage and they lost there life raft and were completely exposed to the ocean in there cabin area. It was about 3/4 videos ago, but this could happen to an outboard in ruff seas.
Good point! I wonder if they could also snap off? They are tucked up in the casing...interesting.
If we are talking 'what could happen, it is probably more likely that you sail over a log or container and rip out the saildrive. Having said that, I would go for the diesels as well for the same reasons mentioned.
Has this ever happened to a Seawind before?
@@carsonc1272 If the outboards did hit something I would think the leg release would bust before the mounting broke, which would allow the leg to pivot up.
If you are talking about a life-raft pod breaking off, the Seawind doesn't have a underslung pod like the leopard. It looked like Gone with the Wynn's pod was held on with four 1/2 inch bolts which just broke.
@@davidwood4427 I was asking about the outboards because I didn't think that issues with them were likely but didn't want to jump to any conclusions.
I had a Yanmar saildrive in my 1984 sailbost.. it was a 2GM.. had the boat for 20 years. Never failed me. I'm a fan of Yanmars. Those are very good outboards, but if affordable.. I would go diesel.. yes, a lot easier to repower with the outboard, but with a Yanmar, repowering isn't likely
Great presentation. I go by a simple rule.."buy cheap, buy twice" In the long run your investment in diesels will pay for the difference. Having large alternates being a big component of your overall electrical system is great. You hear all the time on sailing channels people upgrading to larger alternators, and not installing a full generator system. Good choice !!!!
What does this even mean? The Yamahas and Honda outboards are most likely more reliable and definitely come with far less maintenance. I get the alternator part but not the other stuff
You made the right choice.
Most items/options, you can add later, after you're sailing.
The diesels obviously need to be part of the initial build.
So ya, good choice!
Good luck with the sail drives.
Obviously a straight shaft would be simpler and more robust, but it is what it is.
Hopefully they will be trouble free or as trouble free as sail boat stuff can be. 😀
We have the outboards on our 1160Lite. You have converted all of the points very well. We cruised last season in Mexico. We are very happy with the additional sailing speed. We have the Honda 2200 generator and that has covered all of our power needs. We did just upgrade and double the solar capacity. That should reduce our time running the generator. Another purpose of an inboard is to heat up water. We have the propane on demand water heater and love it. The only time I would have liked to have the inboard diesels was our trip north from Mexico to California doing the Baja Bash. The downsides were fuel consuming/range and noise. We survived and I would do it again. We do plan on doing a pacific crossing, or canal transit. We will be pushed to sail more and be patient when need be. It is a sailboat, and a very good sailing boat at that.
Diesels for a full time live aboard situation. The electrical generating capability and fuel availability when traveling away from the US are my primary reasons.
Hello crew,
My 36 foot cat had a single 18 hp 4 stroke outboard, it did cavitate too much. I would go diesel engines, or electric when it gets affordable ! Sail on.
Diesels for sure! Cruising range, HP, reliability 😉🙌
Good call on diesel for your plans and boating lifestyle. Have cruised cats with both, my thoughts after the fact:
Diesel- The right choice for full time, go anywhere, working from the boat, air con, potential world cruiser.
Yamaha outboard- The right choice for weekend warriors, Bahamas cruisers, potential longer term Caribbean adventures. The advantage of powering your dingy with a 3rd outboard of the same type adds a lot of redundancy.
Definitely diesel - saildrive props stay where they're needed during really bad sea conditions and the diesel alternator amps are needed for quicker recharging. ;-)
What Bob said holds for me.
One thing.
I agree. However the engine compartiment needs to be separate from the rest of the Hull.
In case of gasket failure at saildrive
@@thenarrator1984 it's a saildrive not a shaft through hull. Saildrives are sealed just like the lower unit of an outboard with non moving gaskets, not seals. They don't leak unless you rip one off.
@@h2opcs That's the issue with sail drives on Seawinds. Hitting large debris will dislodge the seals and flood the ENTIRE hull, not just the engine compartment as its not isolated from the hull.
@@h2opcs Steve you are a bit confused here, saildrive engine are a shaft through Hull but in a different way than the normal inboard engine, however they need to be installed in a watertight compartment like normal inboard engine but instead the propulsion to be horizontally is vertical, mainly like a thruster leg. The outboard engine are encapsulated and watertight so that is the reason why they called outboard, they can installed in an open compartment.
I've got 45 years sailing experience including 25 years living aboard currently. Diesels every time. The diesel also gives you the option of hydrolic anchor winches and a hydrolic garbage crusher...
Depends on the boat, or ship, but I'd never put hydraulics on my boat.
My right foot is a pretty good garbage crusher.
They definitely have their pro/con for each engine option. I can see someone going with the outboards if this was gonna be their weekend boat to go cruise around and what. For full time living with plans to cross the oceans the diesel definitely makes more sense for fuel availability, range, consumption, and their ability to charge up the house batteries much quicker. Not to mention you get more fuel onboard and more weight down low with the diesel option. It is a no brainer as they'll pay for themselves over their lifetime and in resale down the road. Having to haul the boat out for maintenace on the sail drives shouldnt be that big a factor seeing how you should probably be hauling the boat out every 1-1.5yr if you are full time and/or using it heavily to make sure the bottom is in good shape, clean and scrub, and repaint as needed. For your goals the diesel was the right choice for sure! Looking forward to the video about the electrical system and Billy's plans for the size and batteries he plans on using.
My wife and I had this conversation many years ago and like you we opted for diesel. We have never regretted that decision. The reliability and power verses fuel consumption made the extra thousands in cost we'll worth it. Proper maintenance is key to longevity.
You guys made the right decision in my opinion. The fuel range is a big consideration and getting gasoline that is quality in parts of the world is a problem. I know that in remote areas diesel is pretty bad but filter out the water and trash and your good to go.
With the for and against outboard verses inboard i would have one inboard one outboard then you got the best of both worlds but being serious Yamar is the way to go
What a roller coaster conversation!! It made me kinda of freak thinking about u getting the out boards. Once u said noise I was sold on the diesel!!
The Jetty Yawn at 10:18 was classic 😂
Definitely go the Yanmar/SailDrive route. I race on a Beneteau 36.7 with the Yanmar/SailDrive combo and it works great, even in reverse. I would recommend a feathering or folding prop to reduce the drag and the chance of snagging seaweed or lines.
You could add the high output alternators to the diesel engines and allow the standard alternators to charge the engine starter batteries only. Secondly the diesel prop drag may be used to your advantage for your lithium house batteries regeneration if the fold back propellers are installed.
A few thoughts
It is too bad that the Sillette Sonic outdrives are no longer available. Yes they had their problems but 2 of them each attached to a 20 hp diesel would give you the best of both worlds- diesel power, fuel efficiency, high amp output combined with long leg drive that can be lifted out of water and not needing as an intrusive of a pod.
I continue to be amazed at the price of marine diesels. The name brands command a premium price and I am glad to see they are getting some competition by some new "marinized" diesel co's . Too bad the cat maker doesn't give you a few diesel maker options. Some cruisers have even gone to using Chinese made diesels for a refit.
Torqueedo has a great solution for that boat. And it's the best imo. Allowing the advantages of the outboards, but also the benefits that diesel genset as an extra layer of redundancy
Thank you for a very informative video. I currently have a 1985 cruiser with twin diesels. In years to come diesel may be harder to come by and much more expensive. As I aim to use my boat primarily on inland waterways and canals, i would look at replacing the engines with full electric ones combined with large battery bank and solar panels.
Great informative video.
I'm looking at a Seawind 1190.
I'm looking at electrical engines.
There are lots of reasons.
I will be having extra solar panels.
So I hope.never to carry fuel and all the spares required for fuel engine. No problems.
Each time you start your desiel engine you need to do a wobbles check
Starboard side you need to lift the bed to do the check
This will be come very tiring
As access is difficult
It also allows me to carry extra water . 1000 litres of water means I don't need a water maker.
I'm also not having gas for cooking.
With an all electric boat it will be cheaper to run. Just saving the problems created to obtain fuel to me is worth it
You guys are all over this. Just sold my SW. Thanks for driving up the resale $👍. Negatives we experienced with outboards:- cramped working space. Cavitation in rough conditions. Pros:- Legs lift out of the water, no anodes, cheap to replace, low weight, less thru-hulls. What are we looking for now? Either but, we are coast hoppers. If we were ocean crossers, I think we'd be looking at inboards. The leveller is the sail drive. Not a fan. Would prefer shaft drives. You are going to love your 1160.
Since you guys are full time liveaboards, I agree the diesels are the way to go, for electrical generation, range, etc. if I were going to use the boat as a coastal cruiser, daysail and maybe a week or two cruise every summer, it’d be a lot harder to justify the diesels.
Good choice! Power, range, longevity, fuel consumption make it a better choice. Also if you head to a cold climate you can add a diesel heater.
I think that the experience and the solutions regarding the electric motor made by the two guys of "Sailing UMA" are unique and very valuable
yea there are even full solar powered cats out there without any sailes
i also think a combined solution would be an option these days especaly on cats
a cat got more deckspace for larger solar arrays
with a regen system like uma ist testing with the ocenvolt servo prop and 2 of them on a cat and the higher speed cats can go you can regen more while on the travel under sails
and now i would add a generator to the setup who can sustain your cruising speed electrical needs and maybee also charge at the same time (didnt do any maths regarding this). there are realy quiet generator systems out there you can place them on the boat more freely and encapsulate them better, getting it out of the way or on a easy to interchange access port
you have now best of both worlds. i am not sure there is such a setup anywhere
@@Total_Egal UMA has as many solar panels as they have, they first added a wind generator but did not charge much, Then they decided to take a portable petrol generator because they are approaching the north pole and the panels do not receive the right amount of sun because of the weather and an always cloudy sky
i would go with the diesels. you gave so many good PROS AND CONS, i really had to think. what i didn't really understand was, is it going to be a twin screw. also the diesels looked easy enough to get to and work on. also they put out lots of amps for charging your batteries. now as far as AC goes, i wouldn't own a boat like yours w/o it.
not a sailing boater, but a motor boater, and a massive outboard fan. I started this thinking outboards of course but you convinced me you made the right decision.
Bummer on the build delay! Our world is so screwed up with the Covid, you just have to learn patience! So glad you have decided on the Diesel engines. Your explanation of the options just helped you make this very important choice and, in the long run, should pay out Big time, especially if/when you sell. Loved your ending “out takes”! It shows how you kids are real and do disagree sometimes. Remind us every once in awhile any wedding plan ideas. We are so looking forward to that event!
In my opinion You made the Right Choice with The Diesel inboard Engines! With ur needs and setup it just works... I enjoy your videos Big Fan! 😊👍⛵️
Covered most issues, biggest issue of the 1260 is it seems like its just on the hub of being able to carry a little more weight and a little more solar, but may be not quite enough (guess I can say that for any situation)..... beaching and shallow draft can also be a consideration ..... but my ultimate choice would be a single diesel parallel hybrid electric shaft drive with a matched electric drive in the other hull....if only this was an option!
However in your case I think the diesels are the best available choice, electrical generation is important ...... you should really check out 'Safiery' and their 'Scotty' battery charging technology.
Good to hear that you took the Diesel engines. I would have picked the same because it’s worth it because you live full time on the boat
I don't even have a boat and I found it interesting! But if I did I'd choose diesel for the HP, torque, range and electrical output.
You made a great choice in picking diesel engines. You will need them to charge the batteries in higher latitudes. I prefer the engines in the middle of the boat with shaft drive but that's not an option.
I'd go with the Yamahas + 2 Yamaha 2400 gas generators, and 2 or 3 (cheap $200 ea.) 5,000 BTU AC units, the saloon is only 100 square feet, so it is easy to cool. When the OBs wear out, convert them to electric, add more lithium batteries and all the solar panels you have room for. I would remove 1/2 the back rest of the bench seat in front of the galley so it is more open to the saloon. Today you see big center consoles with multi outboards, carrying 800+ gallons of gas without issue. Enjoy the journey!
One thing you didn’t mention but with an inboard engine you get free domestic hot water using a loop through a hot water heater from the engine cooling system.
Thank you for an entertaining video. I see your point picking diesels ....I just don't like saildrives....but if you live aboard the power generation capabilities of diesels will outweigh in the saildrives maintenance issues.
A diesel typically runs a minimum of about four to five times longer than a gas outboard before needing major overhaul or replacement. If you run the engines fairly regularly, outboards can be worn out much sooner than one would expect.
I was recently researching large outboards (200 HP) so I don't know if this carries over to small outboards too but, the data says outboards that are run regularly in some commercial operation or water taxi last about 4000 hours or double the hours of a private party who uses their outboard less regularly. I think the Tula crew would be in the category of low frequency usage and short duration when used meaning shortest life in total hours. So the Diesel choice is a good one for range, performance, reliability, longevity and yes, economy over the long term. 10K hours for a very well taken care of and maintained Yanmar vs. 2K hours for an outboard....I guess the 5 times the price thing actually makes sense. The Yanmar engine will easily do 10K hours but the "cooling systems"on the Yanmar requiring maintenance and regular checking and cleaning can quickly kill any diesel motor regardless of hours on it.
@@timhardman4764 - and . . . . . it is a ' S a i l ' boat . It should be ' under sail ' !
@@richardhobbs7107 Agreed Richard and these guys definitely prefer sailing to motoring. But I think this video was mostly about motors and motoring...thus my non-sailing comment in this particular video. If the next video is about electronics, I'll probably comment about electronics...I know, I'm kind of crazy.
@@timhardman4764 - I liked your comment especially concerning the cooling system for a diesel being so important. For me I would prefer the outboards for the redundancy , lower cost , sailing efficiency with them tilted up , & ease of beaching the boat & shallow water sailing .
I read somewhere most sailboats are motorboats with auxiliary sails in actual practice . . . .
@@richardhobbs7107 haha it is real 90% of sailboats are really motorboat with auxiliary sails👍
Lmao, your outakes were hilarious. Options for my mindset is Luke this. I hate outboards, having said that I also owned any newer than my 1992 merc. You said you could get the same motor for your dinghy and that would be swappable but of course you'd have to change the lower unit as the dinghy would be a short leg. Now as I am a trucker, equipment operator to me diesel is tge only option and the pros far out weigh the cons. Having spent thousands of hours behind the din of a reliable diesel I am most comfortable with them to make sure I get there and back. Yes higher cost but greater reliability and since I have spent so many hours listening to equipment noise is huge for me. As quiet as possible is best for the long hours of running. Never understood my buddies with there loud pipes. I think you've made the right choice as resale is a huge factor.
P.s. that shot of Jetty yawning was priceless. Lol.
Ok Billy and Sierra, you knew I had to comment. On Sunburst I had twin Honda 15's for 20 years. I had speed props and maxed out at 10kts, 8kts into 50kt winds. The motors were 12ft apart 8ft from the transforms. They never cavitated. If they had ever failed me I could have taken them to get repaired. The only problem was the poor wiring and reverse was week with those props. I have repowered with 9.9 Suzuki with high thrust props, they really stop but top speed is only 8.5kts. The most important feature is they are fuel injected. As to economical the Hondas at 7kts burned half gallon of cheaper gas an hour, I don't know yet about the Suzuki but it takes 35 min to burn the fuel in the engine after disconnecting the hose. My big deal is who can repair the engine and where. Natives in the islands seldom have diesels but all of them have obs. Also I don't want anything under my boat that needs repair or could leave a hole. Most of the comments about obs are very outdated. The new keyboards are really something!
Love your channel. I would increase your battery bank and go with electric. I was just watching a video where there were charging the batteries with hydro generation while sailing. The extra batteries would let you go totally electric on the boat. I'm sure you will be talking about solar generation later. Keep up the good work.
Yes.. I love the idea of an engine that requires very little maintenance. I have actually asked Nauti Open 46 to figure out a twin out option...
What a blast making choices for a new boat!!! Our Max44SC will be completed Oct 2022 in Vietnam so may see you around, SV Stray Kitty. Get the diesel. You need large alternators to keep up with the boats electrical needs, 1/4 the fuel with diesel, easier and safer fuel storage, 3x life expectancy, way cheaper maintenance. If you can get the Hybrid Yanmar or Beta that is even better. Happy Cruising.
good choice, you're cruising everywhere and in all conditions!... and maybe the weight penalty isn't so much without a genset!
Thanks for posting and sharing. Very comprehensive.
thanks for starting to cover pre delivery of your boat details. I find it interesting!
Too get a faster boat,, make the Engine Bays big enough to get a 300hp Yamaha in each hull.. That way Sierra would not need A/C anymore... Love your channel ..
Since you will have 2 alternators from the 2 diesel engines, and seemingly enough power to charge your house batteries and extra, and also wants to avoid 2 different fluids for power, maybe go for an *electric outboard on your dingy?* I'm not sure a set up like Uma with solely electric power for the yacht is economically smart/possible yet, but more in line with what Rick Moore did on Sophisticated Lady - changed from gas to electric outboard. Ofc, this is given you only use the dingy for light/slow travel and get enough speed kick from sailing your cat at 15 knots and not least the kites and other toys you have.
Diesels are hard to beat if your going to sail Bluewater which I know you are and long passages! If your a coastal sailing mostly then 25hp Yamaha all day with a or a massive 1500w solar array, with Lithium battery bank and a little Honda generator!
Wish I had such tough decisions to make. The 600 mile range of the diesels and storage space where you can use it are some pretty compelling reasons. I hope you enjoy the new boat!
You made the right decision in my view. I have a 54 HP Yanmar in my boat and I absolutely love it. The boat, (and the engine) is 15 years old, so far I have no issues with it. (knock on wood). I had in the other hand, more problems with the outboards that we use in the dinghy for example. The range and electrical production alone makes it worth it, the extra weight of the diesels, plus the fact that are infinitely repairable, like you proved in the Bahamas. So, to me, no questions about it. Diesels all the way......keep that fuel clean, and you will have no problems!
Well I would have to agree with you on that one. The amount of money up front is high but in the life of the boat it will end up costing less overall.
Makes sense to pay for diesel up front and recoup some of the cost in other ares, areas you can add on later as funds allow. The usage of power would be the great benefit as liveaboards.
Good decision, I’ve been using outboards my entire life; if I was planning on cruising around world I sure wouldn’t have faith on 2 kickers to do that, us locals here say; outboards are good until you really need them
live aboard traveling cruiser , its pretty simple diesel. hey if you are just a weekender / holidays or don't plan to travel far or much, the outboards will ge the job done.
For my personal preference I'd go with two electric outboards, say the epropulsion 6kw (and add an induction cooker in the kitchen). Advantages: 50% weight savings to the petrol outboards, much higher recuperation (up to 1000w at 10 knts.), no noise, basically maintenace free, off grid solution. Drawback is far less range and less top speed. But if you're living on the boat and/or are a circumnavigator these drawbacks don't matter, since you're not on a schedule. And since the epropulsion allow third party batteries, you can put on your diy lifepo battery for dirt cheap.
I think the most obvious thing you didn't discuss was beaching with either motor.........that's a huge point considering maintenance, cleaning the hull, possible grounding etc......maybe add this in future.
In my world safety is foremost in a off-shore marine environment. Due to that I would probably go for the diesels for their range and reliability. I realize that they weight 842 lbs more than the outboard with full fuel but it weight really that much of a factor when the overall weight of the boat is factored in. I realize it's your boat and your call but if you get de-masted range can be a real issue. You're both pretty smart so I'm sure you'll make the best decision your situation.
I say you made the right choice with the Yanmar diesel. I had an older version of the exact same engine (3ym30) on my 36 ft monohull sailboat and it was a very dependable workhorse. I motored a lot, anytime the winds were not favorable I didn't hesitate to turn on that engine. I spent 5 yrs mostly to/from and through the Bahamas every winter for 5 months a season. I kept an accurate fuel log and that engine consistently used 0.6 gal per hour, running at 2200-2400 rpm.
for your tender the 25Hp outboard has 3 cylinders so the unit will not have to works as hard under load. the 25Hp will connect to the NMEA2000 network so instruments will come up on a chartplotter is fitted. Also consider a 4 blade propeller as well for lower rpm efficiency but you will need to look at the manufacturers chart for the size, pitch and model number. regards. For the main vessel have you considered going to a full 24 volt DC system over a 12V DC system
Diesel engine, not a big issue in Florida but a diesel cabin heater is a nice dry hot heat. Plus the stability of diesel fuel vs gas and the easier water removal and usability from diesel fuel
Very relevant to us as we’re having a performance cat built for liveaboard, however we’re going with outboards. Reasons in no particular order:
- WEIGHT. Our boat is very light and we should be able to sail wind speed easily from 3/4kn true. Adding ~350kg is a non-starter.
- DRAG/EFFICIENCY. Our outboards are mounted in the hulls and pivot up with a ‘plug’ going into the hole leaving a perfectly smooth hull. This also removes the cavitation and noise problems. According to our designer/builder (who has built 20+ of these, some diesels and some outboards) you can fit a much more efficient prop (no need to worry about drag or have folding one) and you gain back in thrust efficiency the lower power/fuel efficiency. In their experience you get similar range for only a slightly larger fuel load. We can also specify, within reason, the size of the tanks as it isn’t a production build with limited options.
- MAINTENANCE. In the event of a serious issue you just (!) lift out the outboard and take it ashore. Also no issue with cleaning props etc.
- BACKUP & OPTIONS. having the ability to swap out with the dinghy is useful, but also the ability to potentially swap for an electric outboard when the technology becomes suitable. This might become increasingly necessary as diesel is starting to be banned in certain places. We are pondering one electric and one petrol/gas at some point.
To me the biggest single issue is electricity production, that is clearly where diesel is miles ahead. We’re aiming to mitigate by having a lot of solar (the boat is 15.2m with a high aspect ratio main and thus short boom so more space to put panels) and LI batteries, plus a hydro-generator and a back-up portable generator (petrol/gas) if required. We’ll be in the tropics, this might not work in higher latitudes. Also we have no a/c but will have all electric cooking and no propane.
For me I'd go diesel. I like that its in a dry area of the boat to work on it runs an alternator by its self. smother ride. Having two power plants on board is security. Weekend warrior outboards long term warrior diesel.
For resale, the max nm motor sailing, and electrical charging advantages, go with the diesels, and get the extended warranty.
Nice overview of pros and cons of each but good choice on the diesel. I thought you might go with one of each, to stay on the fence 🤪
The biggest drawbacks to the inboard saildrives are twofold to my knowledge.
1. Drag when under sail. Even with a folding prop, you'll have the drag of the drive pillar.
2. Potential damage. I've heard some horror stories of people running over a log or other obstacle and actually ripping the saildrive right out of the bottom of the hull causing flooding.
If you had decided to go with the outboards, you could get a small portable gas generator for recharging the batteries.
Good choice on the yanmar. The alternator options would have made up my mind and fuel distance.
Availability of gasoline at the dock can be an issue in some places too. If your'e cruising the world, hauling gas in jugs, if you can find it, would be a huge pain.
great choice ,the charging system alone is worth it plus the tot distance you can travel.
Definitely diesels. I would not even consider outboards. My first reason is to avoid the kaboom factor that comes with having lots of gas on board. Another big consideration is keeping outboards running if you do any offshore sailing. The outboard mounts look like they would be suceptable to flooding the outboards in rough conditions in addition to the cavitation problem you mentioned. The charging difference is also a huge consideration unless you plan to cover the boat with solar panels. You will need the extra power production to run the washer and AC anyway.
Great video, and are some good options. I can see the outboards on a boat being used locally and not being sailed more than a couple of hundred miles from it's home port. But for a serious cruising vessel diesel if the only option. Though you didn't mention the differences in fuels as diesel can also be used to heat hot water through a hydronic heating system. as well as used to heat the boat in some more northern climates. Gasoline has a much evaporates too quickly creating a fire hazard which is never good on a boat, where as diesel fuel doesn't evaporate as quickly and has a higher flash point making it safer.
Hi guys, the one point I would make is the availability of fuel. In my experience diesel is much more readily accessible than petrol / gasoline in most parts of the world.
The other question I was going to ask was whether you considered Electric propulsion instead of diesel/gasoline engines as cats give you a much bigger area to mount solar panels on, but knowing your attention to detail you probably plan to cover this topic in the future.
Regards Mike 🇨🇮
In 5-6 years all new cats will have electric drives. The problem right now is the cost is $800/kWh just for the batteries. This is down from $1000/kWh just a year ago and we're just now seeing the packs get to $300/kWh without the BMS system but they should eventually get to $200/kWh soon with BMS. That might seem like an impossible price, but EVs are starting to use LiPo4 chemistry a lot more and it will drive the price way down. That would mean you could get 63kW/5,000amps of power for the same ~2000lbs of weight as the yanmars. Pair that with a big 2k watt array and you would have unlimited power for all but the worst passages.
@@gregb7353 absolutely 😁
Why not go with a 4th option of putting a pair of Oceanvolt Servo Prop saildrives and have a large generator for a range extender when needed. Then you only have one engine to maintain with the regeneration capabilities while under sail.
Most marinas only offer diesel and to get gasoline you may have to go to a gasoline station and fill up via jerry cans. Also diesel will be more efficient and the alternator will recharge the batteries quicker. The only pros of having an outboard is if you get a mechanical issue in a remote location - it is easier to replace an outboard or find spare parts for an outboard + an outboard is cheaper to replace + two less holes through the hull to worry about. Personally I would spend the extra 20K and go with the diesel engines. Also the option to have the LPG hot water heating system is also a good option since you don't have to worry about running out of hot water when having a shower, etc and having to run the engines for hot water.
Hi Tula, I met you guys in Green Turtle a few springs ago. 42 ft Chris White Cat, German Shepard dog if that jogs your memory. I have those Yanmars 3YM 30 AE, they are great motors, very little drag when sailing with Flex-O-Fold 2 blades. Light air motor sailing 1-2 liters per hour with only one engine running. Research the alternator temp limits with lithium’s if you haven’t already. The Yanmars are a bit expensive to maintain parts wise if you follow their recommendations, which I do. Thanks for all the great videos. Ciao
I think it's good that you're going to end up with the diesel engines as much travel as you do the engines will be just fine but if you were just running around local the 25 horse will be just fine and you guys have a blessed day
Diesel for sure . That added range can be a life saver for extensive off shore sailing. Racing is fun and less weight from outboards would be an issue there but, how often would you race anyway?
A new diesel with normal maintenance will most likely never need work as long as you own it so good choice!!!!
Good thought process. My personal opinion would be to go with diesel for long range cruising.