A very good video. I would recommend that anyone looking at a used machine look at the physical control panel very carefully. Any fault in any switch or button on the panel can be an enormous headache that may be near impossible to repair. Be sure to check that every button works the first time... if it's fiddly, it will only get worse. As you noted, replacement parts are expensive to buy if they can be found at all. The control panel is often proprietary and it never fails that you need an exact replacement for it to operate the machine... and a used one may be just as bad as the one you have.
I just found your videos yesterday and these are great. This is probably the 6th one I have watched, they are so educational and interesting answering so many questions that I had about these machines. I bet everyone that wants to sell a used Fadal has benefitted greatly from these.
I think that's good advice but often a shop is replacing an older machine with a newer faster and more capable machine and has the old one disconnected. Connecting it is not as easy as simply plugging it in and running it, these are hard wired and heavy so if it is moved to an area of the building without the correct power supply they are likely unable to connect it to power. Hopefully they will have taken video of it running before replacement but often that is not a priority. Sometimes these machines are being replaced because they are money pits with too many problems but other times it's just to upgrade to a faster more productive machine, the tool changes, rapid feeds, program storage capabilities etc. have increased greatly over the last thirty years and if you can shave 45 seconds off a five minute part that really adds up over the course of a few years of production. The old machine may not be good enough for their expectations anymore but great for what you are doing. It's a gamble at that point so the price has to be low enough to take that risk and often if selling the machine was not priority enough to either keep it hooked up or take video of it while it was running then it is likely just in their way and the price should reflect that, don't be afraid to negotiate the price down because they will not likely get top dollar from anyone without them being able see it run. I've had both good luck and bad luck buying machines like that but I usually get it cheap enough that if I have to put a bity into it I'm still doing ok but it does still suck when you are expecting it to go into production and you have to spend a couple weeks fixing it. Ironically the ones that were the best deals, the steal prices have been the ones that were ready to run for the most part so far for me.
At-Man your 100% spot on - best advise that can be given. i had purchased a 91 Haas vf1 - owner would not let me hook to power. it was a bad idea to continue with the purchase but the price was good imo 4000 and you can find parts and on line manuals and lots of support. turns out the servo drives where toast along with some bad wiring and it cost another 4000 to get it together all n all i lucked out and got a great machine but i also was able to do all the repair work my self. six weeks of full time work to clean fix adjust and so on.. it was a learning experience and i am very resourceful so i did get lucky in the end. machine is able to hold tenths and does a great job. but if you are not good at fixing things this could have been a very different story. if it had been a lessor known machine and no info available it could have been a total loss. be careful and do the research before you even think of spending the money. Thanks At-Man great video!!
I would not be worried about an old controller if you have some technical savviness. I switched out a perfectly working dynapath to linuxcnc. Took me a day to make connectors to hook to the existing connectors on the mill, mesa 5i25+7i77. No wire cutting - total plug and play. Under 300$ in parts. Just the machine builder manual for a dynapath is $300. I was able to figure everything out without even asking questions on the linuxcnc forum, but, those people are very helpful. Yes, I wouldn't convert to an arduino but linuxcnc is pretty much limitless in capability and imo better than many industrial controllers. If you want to change something, you're not limited by proprietary stuff. Want another axis? Wire it up, adjust your setup info and you have another axis. Most importantly it cuts like it should but I now have a touchscreen monitor, conversational, wireless jogging so I can move while looking at a part, probing routines, synced to a network drive for gcode files, etc. It's a joy to use now. Don't get discouraged by an old controller. They're not that complicated especially if you have a wiring diagram. And if you're buying a mill that's out of warranty, you better know how to work on it yourself. You'll save a lot of time and money.
Hello, what type of mill did you retro fit? I have had this conversation with others looking at Linux CNC. My personal opinion is that Linux CNC is not really appropriate for a large industrial machine at this point. I would not say it is better then many industrial controllers. The boards you point out would not be capable of retro fitting an older Fadal machine that uses DC drives. These machines use resolvers not encoders. I'm sure it will get better as time goes on. I think there are one or two Fadal machines out there that people have changed over to linuxcnc using other hardware. In the end, its not about being worried, more about being aware of the potential issue. If Linuxcnc is your preferred option that works for you, awesome, but at least you thought about it and came up with a plan.
It's a Cincinnati v40. 20x40 table. Commissioned in 88. Still using the original dc sd1525 drives and servos with tachs. Not even resolvers. It has scales I'm using for encoder inputs. Less than .0005 backlash on everything so the scales work fine. Generic encoders are pretty cheap now if you have to go that route. Easy to pull off the resolvers and install encoders on most of those old servos. Or add them on top. People did suggest to me that it would be a mistake switching from an industrial controller but I love it. My setup time is a fraction of what it was. And 3d machining went from 20ipm to as fast as 150. Dynapath couldn't keep up with the code.
Yes, you could replace the resolvers with encoders on the DC motors. They also have tachs on them for velocity feedback used in the analog servo driver. But the resolvers are only used for position feedback in the CNC controller. As long as your happy and making good parts that is really all that counts. The Fadal controller can process about 1000 blocks of linear lines a second and about 100 lines of arc lines a second. You can get 100 IPM of 3D contouring pretty easy with the Fadal controller. If you can, would be great to see a video of your conversion.
is this serious, dont know, ispend a good part of the last 4 years to keep 3 cincinatti arrow 750 running, which was not an easy part, by now its only 2 running, cause i got to a point where some of the pc cards where failing and its just not smart to put more than maybe 5000 bucks max into one this old machines, when at any point something else might fail i would be interested to try this on the machine without control right know, but from what i have seen, i just cannot imagine that its as easy as you describe it, last time i looked a bit into that, i assumed it will be a lot of days maybe weeks to get something like this working. and a proffessional retrofit, is not worth it at all, at this point, maybe 10 years ago , the money is better put into buying something newer
Alex Kischut it really is not too hard at all. Especially if you already have the knowledge of keeping it running. Just a matter of connecting the encoders, limit switches, servo amp outputs to have it running. Look up the 7i77 manual and make a wiring diagram before taking the original stuff apart. At first I even left the dynapth all in place in case I had problems. Could just swap the connectors back to it. That way you could work on the linuxcnc swap and move back over to the dynapth if you have a snag and need the machine. The linuxcnc forums are really helpful too. It’s been a few years now and it’s the best thing I’ve done to that mill. Not a single controller breakdown since the swap.
I did field service and training for 24 years on doosan and mitsubishi, linear rails are fairly easy to replace bad box will require a rebuilder , I love machining and had a miltronics partner 1 and a hardinge chnc at home in the garage , and had friends that had shops and would sub me work, people need to be aware most cnc lathes and mills have a min of 7.5 to 10 hp spindles, my 10 hp phase converter added $400 a month to my electric bill and really strains a 200 amp home service, I have sold my (real machines) and downsizing to machines with 2 hp spindles and am going to machine just for fun, if a 10 hp spindle drive goes bad $3000 to 8000 repair or replace
Good video, just wanted to add a little information. In my past career I did parts/option support for an Okuma distributor and a good bit of the calls were for older machines. Never had a problem getting parts, or sending boards/motors/drives in for repair w/Okuma. I was actually always surprised how well they supported older equipment. Just my .02 - sorry if your experience was different.
Don't know how long ago that was, but we have a whole shop of older Okuma's and the issue is Okuma can't get the electronic components anymore. They are not going to redesign 35 year old circuit cards. So your faced with a complete rebuild or just buy a new machine and save the hassel.
@@AtManUnlimitedMachining A few years ago - OSP 3000, 5000, 7000, U100, E100, P100 and newer are all in the exchange department for drives/motors/boards last I knew. They have modern USB replacement for floppy units and bubble memory to CMOS conversion kits as well. Can't recall anytime I had to tell a customer no, unless they were just trying to buy individual components to repair a board on their own. That might have been the case? Feel free to contact me if you need more info or support - I may be able to put you in touch with some folks.
I had my own machine shop, I am now retired but love machining and am concidering putting a lathe and mill in the garage. used cnc look wonderful put if a fanuc or haas spindle drive goes bad you are looking at $2500-4000 repair costs and axis drive repair isnt much cheeper. A spindle cartridge $6000 plus just the spindle drive bearing might be $12000 I will probably buy lathe and mill and convert to mach 3, easy and cheep to repair!!!!! production shops trade in old cnc machines because they have made 1000s of parts at least 12 to 24 hours a day and down time for repairs is a killer ( no production) and if not repairable 3 times the cost for new
At-man I watched this video when it was newly published. Now for some reason YT threw it to me again in the suggestions. At the time, I took it as very wise, organized and well delivered. Frankly, it scared the begesus out of me. As I explored further, I overcame the fear and pushed ahead. I found that the only way I was going to get into real iron at a price I could afford was to roll up my sleeves and learn it. Your warnings about linux and LinuxCNC may not be unfounded for some folks. Especially for those with money to burn. I couldn't get an equipment loan for $80,000.00 by telling my bank I was going to make stuff. Even Really Cool Stuff! Turns out that making really cool stuff is an incredibly tight market place. Once I got my feet wet, I found LinuxCNC quite easy, the right price and a wide open community that loves to share its tricks. My Hurco(s) are now running faster than ever with 5 simultaneous axis on OLD DC servos wearing brand new optical encoders. (@extraace) This video was published in 2016. 3 years ago. Most of your advice is timeless but your view on LinuxCNC was dated even in 2016. I see it being used industrially everywhere I go. The myth is still being perpetuated by big name, high priced, hardware and software exclusive bandits. $9000 for an Ethernet add on. $3500 to upgrade a floppy disk to USB!!!!! These guys will squeeze the blood out of a small business to make their Mercedes payment. OK, I will switch to decaf now. Thanks for your contribution. It helped me get ready.
Hello Green Range, good to hear about your linux cnc experience. Didn't mean to scared anyone, just putting it out there. I will agree that the big machine controllers are very high priced. There are some middle of the price range controllers that are very good though. Good to hear you got going and making chips. The machine market is very tight, but as the economy picks up and lead times go up so will prices and make it a little less cut throat. This week alone there where two machine shop auctions in my area though.
@@AtManUnlimitedMachining - I shop at machine auctions every week but I am very selective. I have seen a surge recently where even the old 1980s stuff is fetching higher prices at local auctions. There is a shop across the road from me, closed for three years. 20 cnc machines in there not getting younger. When they failed, they were extremely busy! Every machine running 24/7. Eventually the bank will liquidate it. I think the only chance I have to compete is to never pay retail for the capital equipment. Even If I am slow, the alligators won't eat me because there is no fat on my bones.
6 лет назад+2
Priceless video! And great series Thanks for sharing 👍
Hello Jody, personally I would suggest either but for the DIY retrofit. A DIY is great if your goal is to learn CNC machines and build one. If your goal is to get a machine to make parts, a DIY retro will suck the life out of you before you get good parts. Add to that the cost of all the parts plus the manual starter machine and your close to getting a working machine anyway. All in what your end goal is. Just make sure you know exactly what your chewing into.
Probably because of the lack of support. Doing something like this makes your machine unique. So some of the problems you face will be unique to you. Not so great in a production environment. That being said, I personally run Linux CNC on my industrial CNC router. I'm in an environment where if my machines go down it's not the end of the world. If I wasn't, I'd buy a controller that has some sort of support to back it up.
@@TheshBuildsbut in general linux cnc/mach 4 will have better support than 30 year fadal controller on 386 processor. You can buy modern pc and cnc boards in any quantity when something will go wrong
At-Man Unlimited Machining , your videos have inspired me to dig deeper into not-so-obvious research and to make a better informed decision, which in your words is "something on the order of a car". 4 months in, finally decided On a Fadal machine. I'm extremely excited, the advice in your channel has been indispensable. I'm sure I'll be referencing your videos well into the future.
I enjoy your channel, I'm upgrading my hobby cnc (Stepcraft) and I need new gantrys. I'm going to replace through y axis with square rails and ballscrew, in an effort to try to machine the 7/8 6061 plate stock. I could send you what I need and you could make a video, and I wouldn't have to worry about accuracy of my gantrys!
Hi Duane, if you would like parts please send me an email and we can see what we can do. When designing your new setup, think about having a way to make small adjustments as nothing is perfect. That way you can really tweak it in and have a nice tight machine. I deleted a duplicate post, FYI. Thanks Tim
In my opinion this machine is perfect for the price. The controller on this machine was ahead of it's time in the late 90s. Everything about it is great. You can touch off tools quickly. The keypad is great for running things from MDI and quick menu navigation. It can run macros like #sprint as well as others and of course the machine is super easy to drip feed. I'm using HSMworks which is the same toolpath generator as your Fusion 360 so almost all of my files don't fit on the machine but it doesn't matter. Also some of the older haas machines will reject some of the helix moves but not this bad boy. The fadal takes anything you throw at it like a champion. If you are interested I've shot videos for fun. instagram.com/secondshiftengineer/?hl=en
Nice, I need to get a chuck for my machine, I seem to do a lot of round parts on my mill. Maybe I should convince my wife to let me buy a CNC lathe to put on the end of the chuck too, LOL.
Get a lathe. I've thrown almost every part I've put in that chuck. It's been nothing but a pain in my ass. Some dude in the shop removed it from the machine and I'm not even bothered by it. I'm sure you can get a better chuck but there isn't that much room in the work envelope. If anything invest in a 4th axis. You could probably present that to your wife as a compromise.
Hey hear in India one fadal vmc available for sell. can I buy that 90's machine and will you help me for run this machine hear nobudy available for fadal mechine ?? Please help
hey guys.. centroid retrofit pricing is here.. www.centroidcnc.com/cnc_technology.html and two centroid cnc technology overview videos. you can do a fadal that has the DC servos for about $5k.. check it out.
nope.. resolvers are old analog tech...the centroid allin1dc has a digital DC servo drive built into it (auto tuning) ..so.. all you got to do to reuse a dc servo that has a resolver.. is retrofit upgrade the dc servo motor with a modern high resolution encoder. check out this page which shows you how.. www.centroidcnc.com/sem_dc_servo_motor_encoder_retrofit.html if you are mechanically inclined its an easy upgrade and if you shop around you can get a new modern encoder for cheap.
Sorry, I must disagree that a resolver is "Old analog tech" Resolvers are still the feedback device of choice in high end motor control applications. Being analog its resolution is only limited by the demodulator and noise floor. By nature its an absolute device so you get accurate position information at power up. If you use 2 16 bit ADC on a resolver it will yield an equivalent of 144,000 line encoder. Even if you throw out the least 2 bits of each ADC it still yields 36000 equivalent lines of resolution. The reason many industrial applications switch to encoders is cost. There cheaper to make and you only need a few digital inputs to read them. Encoders also don't require any math, just a simple counter. Thank you again for your replies, looks like you have a nice controller going.
Have you ever made a video on Servo Gain matching? My3016 is not cutting a true circle at reasonable feedrates. If I slow way down (> 5.0 ipm) if I change interp direction and the egg shape flips.. its at approx 45 deg egg. Seem like the Y axis is lagging. Thank You so Much!!! Your videos have been a SUPER BIG HELP!!!
Hello Kevin, I have not, it is on the list. I think you will see it soon because I need to readjust the gains higher for the new controller and will need to balance again.
If you don't mind sharing, since you bought your Fadal how much money have you put into it after the initial cost not including tooling but including repairs, upgrades, ect?
So far I have about $6000 in parts from the date I bought the machine through today. That does not count any labor, or the Calmotion controller that is in the machine on loan from Calmotion. Some of those expenses where nice to have and not must have though.
Great advice on purchasing a CNC machine. One comment about replacement controls. There is an alternative. Centroid CNC makes a very good industrial grade CNC control. In fact they drive one of their own 5 axis machining centers for machining and porting cylinder heads. They are we'll supported and they have a good dealer network and they also sell to DIYers. I will be doing a video series on retrofitting a knee mill on my new RUclips channel martyscncgarage starting right after the first of the year. I'm also planning on doing other CNC retrofits and repairs. However, you need the skills to be successful, and as you pointed out, machining centers are very complex. Integrating spindle drives and ATCs complicate a retrofit. It can be done. Check out Centroid's website look for their gallery. A Fadal has even been done. Linear way machines, while not as rigid as a box way machine, is better to buy as you mentioned because it's easier to replace the linear guides (bolt on) vs. scraping ways. I recently bought a Bridgeport Torque Cut 22, which still has support, and uses linear ways. It is PC based from the factory. I would like to hear about everything you had to do to your Fadal, and what it cost you roughly to bring your machine back into service. It will give your viewers some perspective as to costs. Even better if you happened to take some videos or pictures of the work you did. Great channel and thank you for taking the time to do the videos. It takes a lot of effort.
Thanks Marty, with the Centroid, its says windows OS. Do you know are they doing the actual tool path calculations in an embedded controller or in the Windows based PC? And even still, there retrofit price listed online for a small mill is $16K. I did not pay that much for my whole machine. Just something to watch for and budget for. That is the key here, just understanding what your in for so you have a correct budget and expectations. Good luck with your channel. This is WAY more work then I anticipated. But its still fun so we keep plugging.
Centroid uses its own motion controller. That is, the hardware handles processing all the moves. Windows is merely the graphical user interface. As for cost, you briefly must have looked at their CNC control pricing page. No, you won't put 4.4kw servos on your machining center! That's almost 6hp. You would be looking at the 1kw system, which is about 1-1/2hp, and that's an AC brushless servo with much better performance than a DC brush servo. That price is for a pre wired fully configured bolt on system. On a machining center you would use your control cabinet and much of the wiring. Scroll down the same page to see the motion control boards and watch the video. In your case, you can probably reuse your DC servo motors. If they have high count differential encoders you could reuse them as well. If not you can simply replace the encoder on your servo. As is the case with my knee mill. I already had Glentek DC brush servo motors, so I will be replacing the tachometers with new encoders and reusing the motors. The All in One DC motion control board has Ethernet connection, a PLC AND 3 built in DC Servo amplifiers. It is fully expandable (watch the video), and can be operated from a touchscreen PC. You can add the standard MPG later and jog pendent. An inexpensive programmable USB keypad, which just emulates keyboard keystrokes, can be used too. You don't have to use their console assembly, that's one of the beauties of being PC based. You can easily connect it to your network via wifi USB or 2nd hardwire Ethernet port. Further, Centroid support staff can remote into your control, if it's on your internet enabled network and do diagnostics and help with setup. (2 hours remote diagnostics time is included with each control purchase, of course they can be responsible for wiring issues) With AIO DC and my own PC and labor, I expect to do my knee mill conversion for about $5k. I will be tracking costs to share with the viewers too. Centroid also has OAK that can drive other industrial machines with many Fanuc and Yaskawa servo amplifiers. Centroid is very active on the Ajax forum (their DIY sister company) on CNCZONE.com. Next year they will also have a solution using their motion control software and hardware for the stepper motor crowd. Knowing what I know now, I would discourage using Mach (though it has been done successfully) on an industrial class machine such as knee kills and machining centers, though credit goes to them for getting hobbyists started in CNC! Centroid is a true closed loop motion control. But as with any motion control, you really need basic electrical/electronic skills to be successful at the conversion and not end up with an expensive paper weight. Again, keep up the great work!
Thanks for the post Marty. You could say I know just a little about motion control ;) My Bio video is also coming shortly. It does look like they did it right though. I did not dig through there website to much, but is there any accuracy tests on there interpolation?
The only other way I would go other than Centroid would be to use EMC/LinuxCNC which was originally built by the government. It will handle some impressive hardware not just the simple stuff everyone uses (stepper AND servo drives, VFD's, etc.)
Centroid cnc control systems are full closed loop and can hold very tight tolerances..with high encoder counts and/or scale feed back in combination can be used. the centroid controller will hold much tighter tolerances than most mechanical system will allow. Several of our customers that use our cnc system make machines that operate in the micron level for the semi conductor industry. The centroid cnc can fully interpolate up to 8 axis.
Hello. This may be a strange question but I am looking to compare sounds of good and ending spindle on Fadal 4020 (10k rpm). Can you give me some tips?
Thanks as always. Machines are typically depreciated, a HAAS mini(bare bones)is approx 50K plus local tax say 5K and maybe freight. Assume a 10% profit margin so with a 5 year depreciation schedule, prior to making any money with the capital, it is necessary to gross an additional 100K ignoring materials, labor, rent, utilities. If a used machine can do the job and if the person buying the machine has talent such as yourself, the difference between a new machine and a used one is pure profit, an example of the labor/capital ratio. I.e. each year you make an additional say 50K pretax personal profit. This assumes you find an additional $100K revenue. If you are a small business, this would seem to have some advantages. Fill in your own numbers to see how it works for you. In my area the auctions are extensive, good companies, going on the block. You seem to be on to something here, thanks again for all the good advice. Dennis L.
Dennis, you pretty much hit it on the head. While I gear my channel more for DIY, start ups, and small shops. Even if you have the capital to buy a new machine, it maybe worth the look at used. Just make sure to add in parts and lost profits from down time as older machines don't have as high of reliability. Older machines typically will run slower so you wont be able to get as many parts out of them as you would a newer machine. I went used with this machine because it was the best bang for my buck so to say, didn't have a lot of startup capital. I often ask my self, would I rather spend 100K on one machine that could do the work of 5 old machines or the 5 old machines for 20K each. Most times I would buy the 5 used ones, but that is me.
It varies by machine, but to sum it up, there are key spots you can apply light pressure to and watch an indicator to judge the health of the ways or linears. It is just one of many checks you can do, but it is dependent on the machine.
Right on ! I am looking at buying a 1985 Matsuura MC-500 VMC 7.5 HP Spindle. Haven't tried the crow bar test, but indicated a hole on a part when back to home, did some manual movements, brought it back and it was on the money. Kind of a no stress test and will do the X Y crow bar next time . It has a USB adapter on the controller ; comes with several tool holders and the changer works. Any + or - thoughts on this machine? Your series on "Buy a Used CNC Machine" is excellent and appreciated. Thank you, Harvey
Thanks Harvey, I don't have any experience with that machine. Just make sure you can still get parts and some support. That is the biggest hurdle with older machines. Good luck! Tim
Where we are located is extremely remote and service techs are not readily available. So, it is an exercise in who services the area, not always the best machines are represented here.
Thanks Drew, your the first person to ask about that. I have plans not only to try and do a ball bar video, but a laser video as well. So far all the videos are targeted to home and small shops, which may not have the funds to pay for an alignment service to come in. I have been holding off because I'm replacing my Z ball screw and want to do it with the new screw. I have the screw just need to find time to get it in the machine.
With my pitching machine.. LOL, I wasn't able to view it or run it when I bought it. Yeah it was a gamble. I knew that going in, and I knew I'd have to get all the maintenance and service work done, plus replace some stuff. It came from a shop that let it sit for a long time as they'd bought a new machine to replace it.. plus it was before the era that MAG had it. Would I buy yet another FADAL.. yep. FadalParts.com was great and I'd talked to David DeCaussin a bit about FADALs in general. Would I reccomend it to new users especially in a home shop environment? sure. Other than that, I've built up several retrofit FANUC's to replace other controls using relatively inexpensive parts off eBay for about 10k including the boards and the unit etc.
Hello G, Yes Ebay is always an option to try and reduce costs. But it sounds like you knew what you where getting into and that is the key. I would have loved to see a video of your pitching machine, that must have been surprising.
yeah, wish I'd thought of filming that back ~10 years ago when I got it. It sounds a lot worse than it was. Getting the clamp/UN-clamp signals right was tricky. but I got I spent about 2-3 months getting it all cleaned up, repainted, DE-greased, etc. At least the rails and screws were alright.
Would you consider making a series of videos on controllers? If the electronics of your machine had been in the same state as the mechanical, it would have been a much different project. Dennis L.
Dennis, I would, what aspects are you thinking of? If the electronics where in the same state as the mechanical you would be seeing videos of me making a custom CNC controller using National Instruments cRIO hardware! Still might do that, but not until I have to, many other things on the personal project plate right now.
Im looking to possibly buy a new machine; Im a beginner and DO NOT want to buy the cheapest/ weakest machine so that i can use it as long as possible before upgrading to a bigger machine, but I also am not ready for an industrial type machine. I was looking at the tormach 1100 but many consider it to be a toy, is there a machine you can recommend that might be in-between the higher end tormach I mentioned and a full blown industrial machine?
The next step up from a Tormach in my opinion is probably a Haas Mini mill or tool room mill. But it's a pretty big jump. I'm not aware of anything in between. It is all about your plans and what you think your going to make. I would hardly call a Tormach a toy, and most people that say that never even used one before. If you have not seen NYC CNC check out John's channel. He built his whole business on Tormach machines. He went a long way before buying his first VMC. Your not going to be hogging Inconel at 50IPM on a Tormach but if you look through John's videos he has made fairly large and complex parts in both aluminum and steel. Tormach has greatly improved there machines and continue to do so.
I have seen some of his videos. I was actually initially looking at machines to cut sheet metal like a water jet, laser, and quickly found out that those machines are way to expensive for me so it left me with the option of a cnc plasma cutter but at the end of the day i can't do much with it and they are not too precise. I came to a conclusion that i might as well spend more and just go with a cnc mill which i can still cut sheet with and then some. Ive been looking around and i think at the price point for a new tormach 1100 i can get a used vmc like yours or a haas the only thing that scares me is that I'm dropping all that cash for an old used machine that i know nothing about. I believe a used machine is the direction i will take and just readup on the machine before i go look at a used one or possibly even hire someone to look at it for me.
How long would you say it would take someone to learn how to run a machine like that? And am i limited to certain software since they are somewhat old machines if i were to go with a Fadal 4020 like what you have?
Not long at all. Just watch all my videos ;) Maybe a few days to get the flow, a few weeks to get comfortable? As long as the software has a post processor for Fadal, it will work fine. And there are so many of these machines still running almost all the software does support them still. It is just G code in the end.
Anything with the Hitachi Seiki brand is one to avoid now... Oh sure, they go at a cheap price, but HS is out of business now, with competitor Mori Seiki offering support, and they always try to push one of their machines on you... Kitamura is another "red flag"... They're still around, but you'd better check the number or letter after that "Mycenter" designation before you buy, or you'll have one bear of a "ship's anchor" on your hands! Fadal and Haas are good, because they're popular brands, and both have a wide spectrum of models in which parts (AND manuals) can be gotten, but still, they're not going to always come cheap, depending upon how much and what, is worn out... Agreed about "power up"... If it's not connected, odds are there's something major wrong with it, and it's fit for nothing but the scrapyard!
I would hope so! ;) And actually, the company was started back up. Not sure how many new machines there selling though. Fadal's are great machines for a home shop or a start up. They can be bought cheap, there are a fair amount of them still, and there easy and cheap to maintain. Fadalcnc.com can get you almost any part on the machine still. The only hard part is the electronics, but if it comes down to it you can retrofit a new controller. There just so easy to maintain, lots of standard parts in them.
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I used to run a Fadal like yours.. it was an old machine, but indeed.. once you get used to it.. it is a very straightforward machine to operate..
it's a POS admit it
A very good video. I would recommend that anyone looking at a used machine look at the physical control panel very carefully. Any fault in any switch or button on the panel can be an enormous headache that may be near impossible to repair. Be sure to check that every button works the first time... if it's fiddly, it will only get worse.
As you noted, replacement parts are expensive to buy if they can be found at all. The control panel is often proprietary and it never fails that you need an exact replacement for it to operate the machine... and a used one may be just as bad as the one you have.
If you know electronics then you can repair it for as low as some cents up to a few dollars
I just found your videos yesterday and these are great. This is probably the 6th one I have watched, they are so educational and interesting answering so many questions that I had about these machines. I bet everyone that wants to sell a used Fadal has benefitted greatly from these.
I think that's good advice but often a shop is replacing an older machine with a newer faster and more capable machine and has the old one disconnected. Connecting it is not as easy as simply plugging it in and running it, these are hard wired and heavy so if it is moved to an area of the building without the correct power supply they are likely unable to connect it to power. Hopefully they will have taken video of it running before replacement but often that is not a priority. Sometimes these machines are being replaced because they are money pits with too many problems but other times it's just to upgrade to a faster more productive machine, the tool changes, rapid feeds, program storage capabilities etc. have increased greatly over the last thirty years and if you can shave 45 seconds off a five minute part that really adds up over the course of a few years of production. The old machine may not be good enough for their expectations anymore but great for what you are doing. It's a gamble at that point so the price has to be low enough to take that risk and often if selling the machine was not priority enough to either keep it hooked up or take video of it while it was running then it is likely just in their way and the price should reflect that, don't be afraid to negotiate the price down because they will not likely get top dollar from anyone without them being able see it run. I've had both good luck and bad luck buying machines like that but I usually get it cheap enough that if I have to put a bity into it I'm still doing ok but it does still suck when you are expecting it to go into production and you have to spend a couple weeks fixing it. Ironically the ones that were the best deals, the steal prices have been the ones that were ready to run for the most part so far for me.
At-Man your 100% spot on - best advise that can be given. i had purchased a 91 Haas vf1 - owner would not let me hook to power. it was a bad idea to continue with the purchase but the price was good imo 4000 and you can find parts and on line manuals and lots of support. turns out the servo drives where toast along with some bad wiring and it cost another 4000 to get it together all n all i lucked out and got a great machine but i also was able to do all the repair work my self. six weeks of full time work to clean fix adjust and so on.. it was a learning experience and i am very resourceful so i did get lucky in the end. machine is able to hold tenths and does a great job. but if you are not good at fixing things this could have been a very different story. if it had been a lessor known machine and no info available it could have been a total loss. be careful and do the research before you even think of spending the money. Thanks At-Man great video!!
Thanks MandA, sounds like you ended up fairly good. Just need to be careful and price correctly for the situation.
can you make a video on why a PC or Arduino control is worse because i have never had a problem and they seam to hold really good tolerances
I would not be worried about an old controller if you have some technical savviness. I switched out a perfectly working dynapath to linuxcnc. Took me a day to make connectors to hook to the existing connectors on the mill, mesa 5i25+7i77. No wire cutting - total plug and play. Under 300$ in parts. Just the machine builder manual for a dynapath is $300. I was able to figure everything out without even asking questions on the linuxcnc forum, but, those people are very helpful. Yes, I wouldn't convert to an arduino but linuxcnc is pretty much limitless in capability and imo better than many industrial controllers. If you want to change something, you're not limited by proprietary stuff. Want another axis? Wire it up, adjust your setup info and you have another axis. Most importantly it cuts like it should but I now have a touchscreen monitor, conversational, wireless jogging so I can move while looking at a part, probing routines, synced to a network drive for gcode files, etc. It's a joy to use now. Don't get discouraged by an old controller. They're not that complicated especially if you have a wiring diagram. And if you're buying a mill that's out of warranty, you better know how to work on it yourself. You'll save a lot of time and money.
Hello, what type of mill did you retro fit? I have had this conversation with others looking at Linux CNC. My personal opinion is that Linux CNC is not really appropriate for a large industrial machine at this point. I would not say it is better then many industrial controllers. The boards you point out would not be capable of retro fitting an older Fadal machine that uses DC drives. These machines use resolvers not encoders. I'm sure it will get better as time goes on. I think there are one or two Fadal machines out there that people have changed over to linuxcnc using other hardware. In the end, its not about being worried, more about being aware of the potential issue. If Linuxcnc is your preferred option that works for you, awesome, but at least you thought about it and came up with a plan.
It's a Cincinnati v40. 20x40 table. Commissioned in 88. Still using the original dc sd1525 drives and servos with tachs. Not even resolvers. It has scales I'm using for encoder inputs. Less than .0005 backlash on everything so the scales work fine. Generic encoders are pretty cheap now if you have to go that route. Easy to pull off the resolvers and install encoders on most of those old servos. Or add them on top. People did suggest to me that it would be a mistake switching from an industrial controller but I love it. My setup time is a fraction of what it was. And 3d machining went from 20ipm to as fast as 150. Dynapath couldn't keep up with the code.
Yes, you could replace the resolvers with encoders on the DC motors. They also have tachs on them for velocity feedback used in the analog servo driver. But the resolvers are only used for position feedback in the CNC controller. As long as your happy and making good parts that is really all that counts. The Fadal controller can process about 1000 blocks of linear lines a second and about 100 lines of arc lines a second. You can get 100 IPM of 3D contouring pretty easy with the Fadal controller. If you can, would be great to see a video of your conversion.
is this serious, dont know, ispend a good part of the last 4 years to keep 3 cincinatti arrow 750 running, which was not an easy part, by now its only 2 running, cause i got to a point where some of the pc cards where failing
and its just not smart to put more than maybe 5000 bucks max into one this old machines, when at any point something else might fail
i would be interested to try this on the machine without control right know, but from what i have seen, i just cannot imagine that its as easy as you describe it, last time i looked a bit into that, i assumed it will be a lot of days maybe weeks to get something like this working.
and a proffessional retrofit, is not worth it at all, at this point, maybe 10 years ago , the money is better put into buying something newer
Alex Kischut it really is not too hard at all. Especially if you already have the knowledge of keeping it running. Just a matter of connecting the encoders, limit switches, servo amp outputs to have it running. Look up the 7i77 manual and make a wiring diagram before taking the original stuff apart. At first I even left the dynapth all in place in case I had problems. Could just swap the connectors back to it. That way you could work on the linuxcnc swap and move back over to the dynapth if you have a snag and need the machine. The linuxcnc forums are really helpful too. It’s been a few years now and it’s the best thing I’ve done to that mill. Not a single controller breakdown since the swap.
I did field service and training for 24 years on doosan and mitsubishi, linear rails are fairly easy to replace bad box will require a rebuilder , I love machining and had a miltronics partner 1 and a hardinge chnc at home in the garage , and had friends that had shops and would sub me work, people need to be aware most cnc lathes and mills have a min of 7.5 to 10 hp spindles, my 10 hp phase converter added $400 a month to my electric bill and really strains a 200 amp home service, I have sold my (real machines) and downsizing to machines with 2 hp spindles and am going to machine just for fun, if a 10 hp spindle drive goes bad $3000 to 8000 repair or replace
Why does a PC / Arduino retro fit not a good option?
Good video, just wanted to add a little information. In my past career I did parts/option support for an Okuma distributor and a good bit of the calls were for older machines. Never had a problem getting parts, or sending boards/motors/drives in for repair w/Okuma. I was actually always surprised how well they supported older equipment. Just my .02 - sorry if your experience was different.
Don't know how long ago that was, but we have a whole shop of older Okuma's and the issue is Okuma can't get the electronic components anymore. They are not going to redesign 35 year old circuit cards. So your faced with a complete rebuild or just buy a new machine and save the hassel.
@@AtManUnlimitedMachining A few years ago - OSP 3000, 5000, 7000, U100, E100, P100 and newer are all in the exchange department for drives/motors/boards last I knew. They have modern USB replacement for floppy units and bubble memory to CMOS conversion kits as well. Can't recall anytime I had to tell a customer no, unless they were just trying to buy individual components to repair a board on their own. That might have been the case? Feel free to contact me if you need more info or support - I may be able to put you in touch with some folks.
I had my own machine shop, I am now retired but love machining and am concidering putting a lathe and mill in the garage. used cnc look wonderful put if a fanuc or haas spindle drive goes bad you are looking at $2500-4000 repair costs and axis drive repair isnt much cheeper. A spindle cartridge $6000 plus just the spindle drive bearing might be $12000 I will probably buy lathe and mill and convert to mach 3, easy and cheep to repair!!!!! production shops trade in old cnc machines because they have made 1000s of parts at least 12 to 24 hours a day and down time for repairs is a killer ( no production) and if not repairable 3 times the cost for new
Your massage is so valuable, it has saved me alot grate thanks
At-man I watched this video when it was newly published. Now for some reason YT threw it to me again in the suggestions. At the time, I took it as very wise, organized and well delivered. Frankly, it scared the begesus out of me. As I explored further, I overcame the fear and pushed ahead. I found that the only way I was going to get into real iron at a price I could afford was to roll up my sleeves and learn it.
Your warnings about linux and LinuxCNC may not be unfounded for some folks. Especially for those with money to burn. I couldn't get an equipment loan for $80,000.00 by telling my bank I was going to make stuff. Even Really Cool Stuff! Turns out that making really cool stuff is an incredibly tight market place.
Once I got my feet wet, I found LinuxCNC quite easy, the right price and a wide open community that loves to share its tricks. My Hurco(s) are now running faster than ever with 5 simultaneous axis on OLD DC servos wearing brand new optical encoders. (@extraace)
This video was published in 2016. 3 years ago. Most of your advice is timeless but your view on LinuxCNC was dated even in 2016. I see it being used industrially everywhere I go. The myth is still being perpetuated by big name, high priced, hardware and software exclusive bandits. $9000 for an Ethernet add on. $3500 to upgrade a floppy disk to USB!!!!! These guys will squeeze the blood out of a small business to make their Mercedes payment.
OK, I will switch to decaf now. Thanks for your contribution. It helped me get ready.
Hello Green Range, good to hear about your linux cnc experience. Didn't mean to scared anyone, just putting it out there. I will agree that the big machine controllers are very high priced. There are some middle of the price range controllers that are very good though. Good to hear you got going and making chips. The machine market is very tight, but as the economy picks up and lead times go up so will prices and make it a little less cut throat. This week alone there where two machine shop auctions in my area though.
@@AtManUnlimitedMachining - I shop at machine auctions every week but I am very selective. I have seen a surge recently where even the old 1980s stuff is fetching higher prices at local auctions. There is a shop across the road from me, closed for three years. 20 cnc machines in there not getting younger. When they failed, they were extremely busy! Every machine running 24/7. Eventually the bank will liquidate it. I think the only chance I have to compete is to never pay retail for the capital equipment. Even If I am slow, the alligators won't eat me because there is no fat on my bones.
Priceless video! And great series
Thanks for sharing 👍
Welcome
We got that fadal in our workplace made in 1997:)
realize most production cnc machines have 15 to 25 hp spindles, and require at least a 100 amp circuit breaker, very few 5 hp production machines
Thanks for the video. I've been considering buying a VMC vs hobby machine (ie Tormach) vs diy retrofit lately.
Hello Jody, personally I would suggest either but for the DIY retrofit. A DIY is great if your goal is to learn CNC machines and build one. If your goal is to get a machine to make parts, a DIY retro will suck the life out of you before you get good parts. Add to that the cost of all the parts plus the manual starter machine and your close to getting a working machine anyway. All in what your end goal is. Just make sure you know exactly what your chewing into.
Hi Tim. Great video!
Can you please elaborate a little on why a PC with Mach3/4 or LinuxCNC is a poor option??
Probably because of the lack of support. Doing something like this makes your machine unique. So some of the problems you face will be unique to you. Not so great in a production environment. That being said, I personally run Linux CNC on my industrial CNC router. I'm in an environment where if my machines go down it's not the end of the world. If I wasn't, I'd buy a controller that has some sort of support to back it up.
@@TheshBuildsbut in general linux cnc/mach 4 will have better support than 30 year fadal controller on 386 processor. You can buy modern pc and cnc boards in any quantity when something will go wrong
Great advice. The exact information I needed to hear at this time.
Welcome!
At-Man Unlimited Machining , your videos have inspired me to dig deeper into not-so-obvious research and to make a better informed decision, which in your words is "something on the order of a car". 4 months in, finally decided On a Fadal machine. I'm extremely excited, the advice in your channel has been indispensable. I'm sure I'll be referencing your videos well into the future.
I enjoy your channel, I'm upgrading my hobby cnc (Stepcraft) and I need new gantrys. I'm going to replace through y axis with square rails and ballscrew, in an effort to try to machine the 7/8 6061 plate stock. I could send you what I need and you could make a video, and I wouldn't have to worry about accuracy of my gantrys!
Hi Duane, if you would like parts please send me an email and we can see what we can do. When designing your new setup, think about having a way to make small adjustments as nothing is perfect. That way you can really tweak it in and have a nice tight machine. I deleted a duplicate post, FYI. Thanks Tim
Outstanding insight, thank you!!! Bob
I have that same fadal at work and I love it. I wish mine was in as good as a condition as yours. I would kill to have one in my garage.
Hi Luke, yes, it is a nice piece of hardware if you like making stuff. Took a lot of effort to get it going but starting to pay off.
In my opinion this machine is perfect for the price. The controller on this machine was ahead of it's time in the late 90s. Everything about it is great. You can touch off tools quickly. The keypad is great for running things from MDI and quick menu navigation. It can run macros like #sprint as well as others and of course the machine is super easy to drip feed. I'm using HSMworks which is the same toolpath generator as your Fusion 360 so almost all of my files don't fit on the machine but it doesn't matter. Also some of the older haas machines will reject some of the helix moves but not this bad boy. The fadal takes anything you throw at it like a champion.
If you are interested I've shot videos for fun.
instagram.com/secondshiftengineer/?hl=en
Nice, I need to get a chuck for my machine, I seem to do a lot of round parts on my mill. Maybe I should convince my wife to let me buy a CNC lathe to put on the end of the chuck too, LOL.
Get a lathe. I've thrown almost every part I've put in that chuck. It's been nothing but a pain in my ass. Some dude in the shop removed it from the machine and I'm not even bothered by it. I'm sure you can get a better chuck but there isn't that much room in the work envelope. If anything invest in a 4th axis. You could probably present that to your wife as a compromise.
Hey hear in India one fadal vmc available for sell. can I buy that 90's machine and will you help me for run this machine hear nobudy available for fadal mechine ?? Please help
A centroid retrofit is about 25k and a mach-motion (mach 4 industrial based) starts at I believe 15k, servos included.
Thanks
hey guys.. centroid retrofit pricing is here.. www.centroidcnc.com/cnc_technology.html and two centroid cnc technology overview videos. you can do a fadal that has the DC servos for about $5k.. check it out.
Can you read the factory resolvers used for the DC motors?
nope.. resolvers are old analog tech...the centroid allin1dc has a digital DC servo drive built into it (auto tuning) ..so.. all you got to do to reuse a dc servo that has a resolver.. is retrofit upgrade the dc servo motor with a modern high resolution encoder. check out this page which shows you how.. www.centroidcnc.com/sem_dc_servo_motor_encoder_retrofit.html
if you are mechanically inclined its an easy upgrade and if you shop around you can get a new modern encoder for cheap.
Sorry, I must disagree that a resolver is "Old analog tech" Resolvers are still the feedback device of choice in high end motor control applications. Being analog its resolution is only limited by the demodulator and noise floor. By nature its an absolute device so you get accurate position information at power up. If you use 2 16 bit ADC on a resolver it will yield an equivalent of 144,000 line encoder. Even if you throw out the least 2 bits of each ADC it still yields 36000 equivalent lines of resolution. The reason many industrial applications switch to encoders is cost. There cheaper to make and you only need a few digital inputs to read them. Encoders also don't require any math, just a simple counter. Thank you again for your replies, looks like you have a nice controller going.
You reading my mail? I have been going through this exercise and there is a lot of truth is what you say even for new machines.
Nope, just trying to make videos that viewers are requesting. But I would hope you don't need to check for free play on a brand new machine!!!
Fadal’s throw and smoke belts if you push them too hard.
Have you ever made a video on Servo Gain matching? My3016 is not cutting a true circle at reasonable feedrates. If I slow way down (> 5.0 ipm) if I change interp direction and the egg shape flips.. its at approx 45 deg egg. Seem like the Y axis is lagging.
Thank You so Much!!! Your videos have been a SUPER BIG HELP!!!
Hello Kevin, I have not, it is on the list. I think you will see it soon because I need to readjust the gains higher for the new controller and will need to balance again.
Another great vid Tim! I thought you were going to bring out the BFH as well for a good joke. lol.
You liked the Thumb nail photo?
At-Man Unlimited Machining
yes I did!
If you don't mind sharing, since you bought your Fadal how much money have you put into it after the initial cost not including tooling but including repairs, upgrades, ect?
So far I have about $6000 in parts from the date I bought the machine through today. That does not count any labor, or the Calmotion controller that is in the machine on loan from Calmotion. Some of those expenses where nice to have and not must have though.
That helped me so much! Thank you!
Great advice on purchasing a CNC machine. One comment about replacement controls. There is an alternative. Centroid CNC makes a very good industrial grade CNC control. In fact they drive one of their own 5 axis machining centers for machining and porting cylinder heads. They are we'll supported and they have a good dealer network and they also sell to DIYers. I will be doing a video series on retrofitting a knee mill on my new RUclips channel martyscncgarage starting right after the first of the year. I'm also planning on doing other CNC retrofits and repairs. However, you need the skills to be successful, and as you pointed out, machining centers are very complex. Integrating spindle drives and ATCs complicate a retrofit. It can be done. Check out Centroid's website look for their gallery. A Fadal has even been done. Linear way machines, while not as rigid as a box way machine, is better to buy as you mentioned because it's easier to replace the linear guides (bolt on) vs. scraping ways. I recently bought a Bridgeport Torque Cut 22, which still has support, and uses linear ways. It is PC based from the factory. I would like to hear about everything you had to do to your Fadal, and what it cost you roughly to bring your machine back into service. It will give your viewers some perspective as to costs. Even better if you happened to take some videos or pictures of the work you did. Great channel and thank you for taking the time to do the videos. It takes a lot of effort.
Thanks Marty, with the Centroid, its says windows OS. Do you know are they doing the actual tool path calculations in an embedded controller or in the Windows based PC? And even still, there retrofit price listed online for a small mill is $16K. I did not pay that much for my whole machine. Just something to watch for and budget for. That is the key here, just understanding what your in for so you have a correct budget and expectations. Good luck with your channel. This is WAY more work then I anticipated. But its still fun so we keep plugging.
Centroid uses its own motion controller. That is, the hardware handles processing all the moves. Windows is merely the graphical user interface. As for cost, you briefly must have looked at their CNC control pricing page. No, you won't put 4.4kw servos on your machining center! That's almost 6hp. You would be looking at the 1kw system, which is about 1-1/2hp, and that's an AC brushless servo with much better performance than a DC brush servo. That price is for a pre wired fully configured bolt on system. On a machining center you would use your control cabinet and much of the wiring. Scroll down the same page to see the motion control boards and watch the video. In your case, you can probably reuse your DC servo motors. If they have high count differential encoders you could reuse them as well. If not you can simply replace the encoder on your servo. As is the case with my knee mill. I already had Glentek DC brush servo motors, so I will be replacing the tachometers with new encoders and reusing the motors. The All in One DC motion control board has Ethernet connection, a PLC AND 3 built in DC Servo amplifiers. It is fully expandable (watch the video), and can be operated from a touchscreen PC. You can add the standard MPG later and jog pendent. An inexpensive programmable USB keypad, which just emulates keyboard keystrokes, can be used too. You don't have to use their console assembly, that's one of the beauties of being PC based. You can easily connect it to your network via wifi USB or 2nd hardwire Ethernet port. Further, Centroid support staff can remote into your control, if it's on your internet enabled network and do diagnostics and help with setup. (2 hours remote diagnostics time is included with each control purchase, of course they can be responsible for wiring issues) With AIO DC and my own PC and labor, I expect to do my knee mill conversion for about $5k. I will be tracking costs to share with the viewers too. Centroid also has OAK that can drive other industrial machines with many Fanuc and Yaskawa servo amplifiers. Centroid is very active on the Ajax forum (their DIY sister company) on CNCZONE.com. Next year they will also have a solution using their motion control software and hardware for the stepper motor crowd. Knowing what I know now, I would discourage using Mach (though it has been done successfully) on an industrial class machine such as knee kills and machining centers, though credit goes to them for getting hobbyists started in CNC! Centroid is a true closed loop motion control. But as with any motion control, you really need basic electrical/electronic skills to be successful at the conversion and not end up with an expensive paper weight. Again, keep up the great work!
Thanks for the post Marty. You could say I know just a little about motion control ;) My Bio video is also coming shortly. It does look like they did it right though. I did not dig through there website to much, but is there any accuracy tests on there interpolation?
The only other way I would go other than Centroid would be to use EMC/LinuxCNC which was originally built by the government. It will handle some impressive hardware not just the simple stuff everyone uses (stepper AND servo drives, VFD's, etc.)
Centroid cnc control systems are full closed loop and can hold very tight tolerances..with high encoder counts and/or scale feed back in combination can be used. the centroid controller will hold much tighter tolerances than most mechanical system will allow. Several of our customers that use our cnc system make machines that operate in the micron level for the semi conductor industry. The centroid cnc can fully interpolate up to 8 axis.
Hello. This may be a strange question but I am looking to compare sounds of good and ending spindle on Fadal 4020 (10k rpm). Can you give me some tips?
please make video on specific CNC lathe machine what to look for while buying used CNC lathe ?
It is very similar stuff, if I get a lathe at some point I will start making some lathe videos.
HELLO SIR, YOUR Content is amazing, could you please refer me to some links of used machinery dealers from united states? Thanks
really nice video, thanks for sharing your precious knowledge.
Your welcome
At-Man Unlimited Machining I might need you help, can I have your email?
Look in the video description
Thanks as always. Machines are typically depreciated, a HAAS mini(bare bones)is approx 50K plus local tax say 5K and maybe freight. Assume a 10% profit margin so with a 5 year depreciation schedule, prior to making any money with the capital, it is necessary to gross an additional 100K ignoring materials, labor, rent, utilities. If a used machine can do the job and if the person buying the machine has talent such as yourself, the difference between a new machine and a used one is pure profit, an example of the labor/capital ratio. I.e. each year you make an additional say 50K pretax personal profit. This assumes you find an additional $100K revenue. If you are a small business, this would seem to have some advantages. Fill in your own numbers to see how it works for you.
In my area the auctions are extensive, good companies, going on the block. You seem to be on to something here, thanks again for all the good advice.
Dennis L.
Dennis, you pretty much hit it on the head. While I gear my channel more for DIY, start ups, and small shops. Even if you have the capital to buy a new machine, it maybe worth the look at used. Just make sure to add in parts and lost profits from down time as older machines don't have as high of reliability. Older machines typically will run slower so you wont be able to get as many parts out of them as you would a newer machine. I went used with this machine because it was the best bang for my buck so to say, didn't have a lot of startup capital. I often ask my self, would I rather spend 100K on one machine that could do the work of 5 old machines or the 5 old machines for 20K each. Most times I would buy the 5 used ones, but that is me.
good job bro. I hope you will make more video.
Thank you, yes, more to come on all kinds of subjects.
If I want to start up with 90's fadal machine what is the machine rate and will you guide me for run this machine???
And how do you do the test with the tools? the crowbar and the indicator? How is the test supposed to be done? Thanks
It varies by machine, but to sum it up, there are key spots you can apply light pressure to and watch an indicator to judge the health of the ways or linears. It is just one of many checks you can do, but it is dependent on the machine.
Right on ! I am looking at buying a 1985 Matsuura MC-500 VMC 7.5 HP Spindle. Haven't tried the crow bar test, but indicated a hole on a part when back to home, did some manual movements, brought it back and it was on the money. Kind of a no stress test and will do the X Y crow bar next time . It has a USB adapter on the controller ; comes with several tool holders and the changer works. Any + or - thoughts on this machine? Your series on "Buy a Used CNC Machine" is excellent and appreciated.
Thank you, Harvey
Thanks Harvey, I don't have any experience with that machine. Just make sure you can still get parts and some support. That is the biggest hurdle with older machines. Good luck! Tim
Thank you,, we will see where it goes.
Welcome, sorry I didn't have more for you.
Where we are located is extremely remote and service techs are not readily available. So, it is an exercise in who services the area, not always the best machines are represented here.
Awesome
Any mention of the ballbar test ? Any thoughts on this one ? Seems to be the property inspector services of the cnc world.
Thanks Drew, your the first person to ask about that. I have plans not only to try and do a ball bar video, but a laser video as well. So far all the videos are targeted to home and small shops, which may not have the funds to pay for an alignment service to come in. I have been holding off because I'm replacing my Z ball screw and want to do it with the new screw. I have the screw just need to find time to get it in the machine.
Yeh I was sure you were going to do a "crow bar .. oh I meant a ballbar" gag. Would love to see the ballbar vid. As always, awesome vid.
With my pitching machine.. LOL, I wasn't able to view it or run it when I bought it. Yeah it was a gamble. I knew that going in, and I knew I'd have to get all the maintenance and service work done, plus replace some stuff. It came from a shop that let it sit for a long time as they'd bought a new machine to replace it.. plus it was before the era that MAG had it. Would I buy yet another FADAL.. yep. FadalParts.com was great and I'd talked to David DeCaussin a bit about FADALs in general. Would I reccomend it to new users especially in a home shop environment? sure. Other than that, I've built up several retrofit FANUC's to replace other controls using relatively inexpensive parts off eBay for about 10k including the boards and the unit etc.
Hello G, Yes Ebay is always an option to try and reduce costs. But it sounds like you knew what you where getting into and that is the key. I would have loved to see a video of your pitching machine, that must have been surprising.
yeah, wish I'd thought of filming that back ~10 years ago when I got it. It sounds a lot worse than it was. Getting the clamp/UN-clamp signals right was tricky. but I got I spent about 2-3 months getting it all cleaned up, repainted, DE-greased, etc. At least the rails and screws were alright.
I have a lot of the pictures together of mine, no video though. Going to try and make that video shortly.
Great, put together a slide show and narrative of you machine rebuild. It would be very interesting to your viewers to see what you went through.
its unbleveable what running a 7 to 10 hp rotary phase converter does to your electric bill, $600 a month for me
Would you consider making a series of videos on controllers? If the electronics of your machine had been in the same state as the mechanical, it would have been a much different project.
Dennis L.
Dennis, I would, what aspects are you thinking of? If the electronics where in the same state as the mechanical you would be seeing videos of me making a custom CNC controller using National Instruments cRIO hardware! Still might do that, but not until I have to, many other things on the personal project plate right now.
and if machine only has an rs232 port, bring correct cabling, tablet computer and hope it works to run code
Yes you can certainly check the com ports. A check out program should be pretty easy to hand type as well.
thanks alot man.
Welcome
I'm a fan of you.thank you.
Who to believe when everyone says no crashes
I want to buy used cnc lathe
Do you have a email I can send you some questions to?
Hello Max, my email is in the video description and in the about section for the channel.
Thanks Tim
How can I get cpu bord for fadal 6030
Check COMPUMACHINE
How price type fadal VMC 3016 L
4 axis cnc vertical
Price is tough, depends on the machine. If your not happy and the seller is not happy then it was a fair deal.
Im looking to possibly buy a new machine; Im a beginner and DO NOT want to buy the cheapest/ weakest machine so that i can use it as long as possible before upgrading to a bigger machine, but I also am not ready for an industrial type machine. I was looking at the tormach 1100 but many consider it to be a toy, is there a machine you can recommend that might be in-between the higher end tormach I mentioned and a full blown industrial machine?
The next step up from a Tormach in my opinion is probably a Haas Mini mill or tool room mill. But it's a pretty big jump. I'm not aware of anything in between. It is all about your plans and what you think your going to make. I would hardly call a Tormach a toy, and most people that say that never even used one before. If you have not seen NYC CNC check out John's channel. He built his whole business on Tormach machines. He went a long way before buying his first VMC. Your not going to be hogging Inconel at 50IPM on a Tormach but if you look through John's videos he has made fairly large and complex parts in both aluminum and steel. Tormach has greatly improved there machines and continue to do so.
I have seen some of his videos. I was actually initially looking at machines to cut sheet metal like a water jet, laser, and quickly found out that those machines are way to expensive for me so it left me with the option of a cnc plasma cutter but at the end of the day i can't do much with it and they are not too precise. I came to a conclusion that i might as well spend more and just go with a cnc mill which i can still cut sheet with and then some. Ive been looking around and i think at the price point for a new tormach 1100 i can get a used vmc like yours or a haas the only thing that scares me is that I'm dropping all that cash for an old used machine that i know nothing about. I believe a used machine is the direction i will take and just readup on the machine before i go look at a used one or possibly even hire someone to look at it for me.
If you go with a used machine and don't have experience with evaluating them I would highly recommend having someone inspect it.
How long would you say it would take someone to learn how to run a machine like that? And am i limited to certain software since they are somewhat old machines if i were to go with a Fadal 4020 like what you have?
Not long at all. Just watch all my videos ;) Maybe a few days to get the flow, a few weeks to get comfortable? As long as the software has a post processor for Fadal, it will work fine. And there are so many of these machines still running almost all the software does support them still. It is just G code in the end.
sir bought this machine
Anything with the Hitachi Seiki brand is one to avoid now... Oh sure, they go at a cheap price, but HS is out of business now, with competitor Mori Seiki offering support, and they always try to push one of their machines on you... Kitamura is another "red flag"... They're still around, but you'd better check the number or letter after that "Mycenter" designation before you buy, or you'll have one bear of a "ship's anchor" on your hands! Fadal and Haas are good, because they're popular brands, and both have a wide spectrum of models in which parts (AND manuals) can be gotten, but still, they're not going to always come cheap, depending upon how much and what, is worn out... Agreed about "power up"... If it's not connected, odds are there's something major wrong with it, and it's fit for nothing but the scrapyard!
is that a vmc 15? exact machine I've been looking for....
Yes, it is a 1994 VMC 15
10k-ish?
Yes, I got it a little cheaper but then put a lot of parts in it. But its like new now.
are you from canada
No, upstate NY area, right below Canada
interesante
Do you know that Fadal has been out of business for years?
I would hope so! ;) And actually, the company was started back up. Not sure how many new machines there selling though. Fadal's are great machines for a home shop or a start up. They can be bought cheap, there are a fair amount of them still, and there easy and cheap to maintain. Fadalcnc.com can get you almost any part on the machine still. The only hard part is the electronics, but if it comes down to it you can retrofit a new controller. There just so easy to maintain, lots of standard parts in them.
Cool. Thanks
Welcome John, thanks for the comment.
Big bull sits
Make parts.
Old vmc machine buy
مَحٌأّضّرةّ نِظّريِّةّ فِّقِطّ
I think fadal is defunct
The original is, they started back up again but I don't hear much.
id never buy a fadal that's for sure
or any american machine lol
sir please contor with me
I don't see your email address
Check the Video description or the "about" page. I just don't post it in public comments because they are trolled so hard. Thanks Tim
I sent you an email and removed your email from the public comments.
don't ever buy a Fedal
Good advice, I have never seen a "Fedal"
Indian
Bla bla bla ...
Short, Concise, informative. I like it
@@AtManUnlimitedMachining sir.i like fadal vmc m/c need.1mt working area it is used.m/c looking