Is CGC Wrong About Cover Whitening? They Make The Rules - Comic Presser Weighs In
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- Опубликовано: 7 янв 2024
- In this video I share a clip from my next episode of SWAGGLECAST where I talk to Comic Presser about all things comic book cleaning. This particular session we talk about some of the new cover whitening techniques that have been happening in our industry and ask why CGC has given some of them purple labels (they shouldn't be) and also when CGC determines is something is "amateur" vs. "Professional".
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I think purple labels are underrated. Slashing the price in half because there's a little pen on the cover is bananas to me
I look at it this way. If a stain can be added and it hurts the grade, i dont see a problem with being able to remove a stain and helping the grade. Barry probably doesnt remember me but i helped him at his booth at the first or second year of The Atlanta Comic Con years ago. His wife and him are super nice people and knowledgeable about comics.
Why wouldn't he remember you is Barry going senile?
@6nosis it was at least 6 or 7 years ago. I'm sure if he saw my face he would remember me. His wife gave me a bottle of wine when we were done, I still have it since I don't drink alcohol hehe
Sadly I lost my phone that had his phone number in it and just lost touch with him
This is a fantastic and logical argument - well said!
Swag, once again it’s a scenario of language used by CGC. “Detectable” is the keyword they use, the devil is in the details. 2 rounds of HOP followed by 1 round of distilled water isn’t “detectable.” I made a video outlining the process about a month ago.
I always thought cleaning and pressing a comic book is technically restoring but I personally don't believe it should get a purple label unless it's had something added to it like new Staples or married paper.
I agree. The actual definition for comic restoration states that it’s occurs if something is “added” to a comic; not taken away.
It’s not “technically restoring” this myth needs to end.
Those whitened books are popping!!! Looks fantastic….
Whether or not it effects grade or value, whitening should be disclosed to a buyer IMO
I would want to know.
CGC is not a comic book collector, and has no meaningful voice in the discussion.
Their policies span the gamut from dated to ridiculous and no one trusts them to make the right call.
I received a restored label for ‘cover cleaned’. No chemicals or anything used - just dirt wiped off - CGC is lost. They couldn’t explain it either.
I finally understand the difference between conservation labels and restoration labels. Thank you so much!!
If a cleaning method alters a book from the created format it is restoration. Erasing too much to the point of removing gloss or color should be restoration. Using Lights or peroxide to fade the color too dim than the ink is supposed to appear should be restoration. Doing these methods properly to where the final book is an undetectably cleaned is not restoration. Non restorative methods should only be effecting the things that have been added to the book after production. When you compare two identical books side by side in similar grade it is much easier to see why over lightening a book should be restoration.
Bingo!
Not a fan. Pressing and dry cleaning paper is like giving a wrinkly dirty shirt a wash. You can get an improved garment after. This the guy even said brings out different more vibrant colours ie better than original which is a problem. It’s enhancement and currently I’m not on board
With the exception of that red on the GX1
Also CGC are not the Gods of Comics, it’s us who have given CGC this ‘Power’ of dictating whats what with the Hobby.
At the end of the day you have complete strangers looking at your book and giving it a grade.
Couldn't have said it better myself!
CGC can set whatever rules they want. If you don't want to follow their rules, don't use their service. There are many others who do use CGC and accept the rules as they are stated.
@@lexluthor8888it’s when they change the rules and negate decades of standards, or when they offer little to no explanation as to why something is or isn’t a specific grade that’s a problem.
"... a purist NOTION, in a NICHE market, with IRRATIONAL value swings..." is th most eloquent crystallization and articulation of th reason why I don't do slabs. CGC could fix that, but as long as they got all you nerds by th balls, they ain't doin sheet. Keep givin em yer money... and keep gettin effed.
You nailed it!
I think he was referring to those buying Mark Jewellers
@@scottabraham1234 Hmm, OK maybe. Either way it's still an apt description of grading in general, and more specifically, slabbing.
It’s easy to tell if it has been whitened…a book of a certain age should never be bone white…that is restoration.
Great insight!!
Same thing happened to be on an asm 41. Was a 7.5 cleaned it, then came back a 7.0 restored- back cover too white.
Interesting. I personally think that some of those look 'too light' for my desire, want or need. A dollar bill thru the washer. I would rather buy a comics that is closer to the original colors, even fading and wear due to age. I don't buy too many that are very stained either. Have a good day.
A response to many of my comments about cgc grading and “restoration “ rules….thank you!
Thanks! The video was ver informative
Great interview! Just amazing work and I agree the insert that you can’t get to are irrelevant for me personally. Buy the book not the grade
Very well explained
I like the analogies the guest utilizes.
Plus pressing and dry cleaning has been around for 15 years plus and I’ve yet to see negative results. If this treatment can prove no negative effects on a comic after 15+ years then maybe people will be more on board.
I clean and press and whiten pages and do stain removal and I have only ever gotten blue labels back cgc can never tell
Great video, was this part of a larger stream?
By definition, shouldn't pressing be considered restoration as well?
great video!
Thank you for the last observation. Grade books are nothing more than glorified trading cards. I laugh when collections get all excited about white pages when they will never ever see them 😅!
Good point! Never thought of that?
@aftacomics5865 it was Bubs Comics who came up with the glorified trading cards line but it makes sense.
@@aftacomics5865 You and Nighttiger are a couple of fossils who don't know nothing! You should send all you books in and have them graded. No need to read them, they were meant for 12 year olds! Also, by having graded books, you can use a heat gun, pop the case open, replace your 9.8 Hulk #181 (second appearance of Wolverine) with a 9.2 qualified copy missing the MVS, and then pawn it off on an unexpecting collector! You can make a lot of money!
Anything done to improve a comic's condition is considered restoration by definition. However, I find it perplexing why certain actions are labeled as restoration by CBCS and CGC, while others are not. The widespread practice of pressing comics is widely accepted, yet some actions, like extreme lightening without causing damage, are deemed restoration by the slabbing companies. In the end, it seems that those in possession of the authority set the rules. Personally, I'm frustrated with this situation and find it all a bunch of BS!
Barry is the best, highly recommend!!
This hobby makes me smh sometimes. Adding dirt, coffee stains, snot and spaghetti-ohs sauce to a comic is ok, but taking them away to improve the beauty is bad. But also don’t have any of the aforementioned defects, because that’s bad too.
Wow, I didn't know that grading could be so complicated/involved, thanks for sharing and stay safe!
Great vi
I see with the lightening blues and reds get less bright
What is CBCS's take on this? If another grading company came into existence and deemed it isn't restoration would any of you send your whitened books to them instead?
Not sure I like how much it dulls the original reds.
How can removing dirt be a bad thing?
The 2nd example with the DD #1 confirms my position: Whitening is misleading, it is worse than true "restoration". The "tan as a biscuit comic" still has the paper longevity of a tan comic (meaning not near as long as a properly preserved white comic) yet, by making the paper white, many will be duped into thinking the paper quality and integrity is that of a comic that has never aged to the tan state.
I don't see cleaning a stained comic has anything negative. Getting the cover or interiors close to the original clean look when it was first published is a good thing for the seller and the buyer and the collecting community.
Comment 🚀🚀🚀 I don’t get how they come up with their rules … not fair sometimes
Does this whitening process affect the paper in any way? Does it make it more dry/brittle for example?
No
It can
@@lennyserna2904 Valid point, if it's done wrong it can.
I think the 3rd party graders should ask professionals what makes a comic restored or conservered. And use the professional guide for that. I do think that the word natural works, but it is subjective to the grader. That the graders view point is where all the ? marks come in. If a professional restorer says it is restored or conserved then that should be the standard. If it is truly super white than it could be considered not natural. As for cleaning the appeal is different than what it might be for say cleaning your automobile before you sell it.
Obviously a clean car is more appealing than a dirty car. But, it does not ever lower the value because you cleaned it. Nor does a paint job lower the value on most autos. That's why there should be a guide as to what makes a comic book unnatural or restored/ conserved.
Very interesting, great details. I've been thinking about using their services once I'm ready to submit 10 silver age books for my PC.
I see his website but what is his youtube hannel and FB page?
Some of these books look bleached and lost the vibrant colors, what a grift
I guess it’s a matter of personal taste. I have seen bleached examples that look much better and I have seen some that looked far worse.
You can only logically compare examples in which photos of the book were taken in the same place with the same lighting. If one image is a photo taken at home and the other is a scan that CGC took of a slabbed comic; that is like comparing apples to oranges.
I prefer the old look for the older books. The shiny white just doesn't fit.
I applaud CGC for calling this out! People blasting these books with gama rays and show you it’s fading the book and CGC are the bad guys? I’m not saying anyone in the video said that but it’s being implied. There’s 100 percent a big difference to me if you have 2 books and one has been carefully preserved and one that has been gama rayed 😂 Think about it!
"A" grade absolutely exists as a purple label. I own one and it's not the first one that I've owned
If you remove restoration. . . Is that restoration? I think reality just imploded
Books not having tattoos inside getting a green label is a scam. You don’t see non key books that came out the same time get a green label w/o them
100% manufactured scarcity
Hey.....how did my moms pantyhose get in all this. Leave her out of things. she hated comics to boot.
Bahahaha
I can personally vouch for the amazing work that Barry does. He did several books for me about a year ago. I actually met with him at his office and he gave me a thorough rundown of what he could do and I hand delivered my books after my consultation. Barry did Deep cleaning and major pressing of some really poor books. All came back in incredible shape and with blue labels. I highly recommend his services.
Could you give me Barry contact number please thank you
Yooooo Barry can sell ice to a snow man😂😂😂 sounds fishy but the books look better !! So he back take my books any day 😮😮😮
10:19 nah it does mean something.. means book is intact
And RARITY of course? Right?
"Is the whole world talking crazy pills?!"
Me: "what chue talkin bout Willis?!"
Also me: "keep the color of ma mama panty hose- OUT YA DAMN MOUF!"
As a presser/Cleaner myself who does use whitening techniques to remove stains and tanning. I do think its stupid when CGC hits comics with the Purple label saying Cover cleaned. To me thats totally stupid since your literally removing all the junk that ltierally ruins the book and will damage it over time.
Now i understand if your actually adding stuff to the book or using strong chemicals that leave residue behind on the book that can be detected. But to say on you whitened the book to much lets slap it with a purple label cause someone cleaned up a 80 year old book is stupid when they basically do the same thing. But sadly in the end its all about money to CGC and until they change the rules which is dumb in itself that they made we have to deal with it.
Also just for clarification how dumb their rules are and their inability to be consistent with said whitening rules. Ive have 2-3 books ive done for clients whos book i whitened get a purple label and were nearly as white as this guys books. I re-cracked them and resubmitted them just for them to come back with a blue label afterwards. So again zero standards for them really say when a book should get a purple and when it shouldnt for being cleaned.
Sun fading isn’t restoration.
Its degradation
Jeweler inserts, coupons & intact pages make for a more scarce comic, not an artificial thing; collectors seek rarity. This guy really gaslights a lot of things.
I have a major Batman golden age book with Barry right now after finding strong recommendation for his services. Hoping for amazing results. :)
Overall he’s not wrong about his opinions.
CGC can give you a conserved grade which is the gray label.
Whitening is restoring and should be noted, or if raw, disclosed to buyers. Part of the value of older comics is how they've "weathered" the decades. If someone can take a comic that has had a hard life, and spruces it up with chemicals, or whatever is used for whitening, it devalues the whole comic value system. Should a 9.8 white page cover that has been whitened have the same value as the same book that somehow was stored in a way to preserve it's whiteness naturally? To me, the first is preserved at best, and deceitful if not disclosed, while the natural comic is truly the rare collectible that the value was based on.
Academic conservation is superior anyway.
The technique that he's explaining has been giving people conservative label.....
I don't think collectors should worry about conservation or restoration on certain types of books. I personally am not going to bleach or wet clean my book, but some books have spots that can be cleaned. If someone wants to, by all means clean the book. And then let the buyer know it was cleaned up.
'Restore' means 'bringing it back to its original state'. Colour touches and gluing torn spines is NOT accomplishing this, so it needs to stop being called 'restoration'.
Whitening a book IS restoration but in a good, pure way that should not even be detectable.
anything used to manufacture the "new" condition of the book is restoration. cleaning, pressing, whitening all of it. you are taking things to present the book as unmolested from the printing press as if it was straight off the news stand. older books in particular. did you get a 5.0 grade on the book?...what restoration did you do to try to bump the grade up? its gotten out of hand. it started off as the classic color touch, trimming, tear seals using erasers and has shifted to things like this. "restoration is adding things to the book".. no. restoration is doing anything that takes the book in its original format and changing it to be better or more presentable than it was. if someone presents the book as if it has had nothing done to it and it in fact has had anything manufacturing a new condition then its restoration. but cgc and cbcs promotes pressing and cleaning and everybody gobbles that up. if the grading companies start to lose money then they will accept any form of whatever type of manufacturing of condition of the book that gets them sales. they may be against the light bleaching because it plays with their pocket book. not as many people will use cleaning services as a result if they can use the lighting techniques. this is crazy and sad at the same time.
Everyone knows how to switch books into slabs by now with all these how to you tube videos. Cgc is pretty much in the grave for me. Fact is all of their guaranteed slabs can be compromised. All of them! Now they will probably come out with a new case. Maybe. Making all old slabs less valuable and untrustworthy unless re holstered. Also 5 dollar book in same case as one million dollar book!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣 wtf!!
The $5 book getting the same case as the one million has always seemed wrong to me.
Simple solution. Golden age case silver age case, bronze. But those cheap money vampires won’t do it.
Stop comparing people obviously restoring/conserving/dry cleaning comic books to artificially increase their value the same weight as cleaning renaissance masters’ art.
Personally, I averted my eyes when I saw my Mom's pantyhose. So I wouldn't know about the color.
It's because cgc didn't clean it. They want to make the money
Personally, I think the BLED whitening is restoration. Normal pressing, dry cleaning and even overlay cleaning are not restoration IMO.
Technically you’re restoring the book back to its original state.
All cleaning and pressing should be deemed restored.
Yup.
After this latest CGC scandal, CGC deserves nothing but distrust and ridicule. Yet commodities traders (anybody who slabs a book is a commodity trader and not a collector) are still willing to give CGC complete power over the hobby. I personally think CGC has known how easy it was to switch books for quite some time and hoped collectors would not figure it out. Your slabbed books are no longer legitimate people. Deal with it!
If I buy a raw comic as an investment without slabbing it and sell at a profit later wouldn't that also fall under your definition of a commodities trader?
If you buy comics as investments (always a bad idea and an amateur investment move) then you are a commodities trader regardless if the book is raw or slabbed.@@rocketfighter8
Cope
I want to trust Barry, but difficult to trust someone with such perfect eyebrows… 🥸
Bahahaha - this is hilarious.