Julian! You are a strapping young lad!! ;-) Thank You for all your wisdom in the electronics field. Specifically, solar charging of storage batteries and all that is needed to keep it all running safe. You are a genius sir and I am looking forward to the help you will provide with your knowledge in this new age of clean energy consciousness.
In order to maximise our solar PV, I have fitted a 3 position switch to the Type 2 connector so that I can select 13A, 20A, or 30A. It's been very useful.
Thank you for the valuable information. I want to ask if the socket has the right value resistor for the existing cable cross-section, can we supply the EV directly from a home socket with the extension cable that doesn't have an ECP unit? Does EV pull a current that cable could carry?
Pick up an o-ring from a hardware store and cut a section out of it for filling in the missing seal area. I don't know what the existing seal material is or if the end of your broken seal is accessible well but in the vacuum industry (thin films, semiconductors) and in a pinch, I bonded o-rings with super glue. Of course, skill at square cuts and alignment were necessary but it worked well and held vacuum so it would keep water out for you.
That Is crucial information and very simple concept even for people not educated in electronic engineering. It's also important for DIY people who want to make their own cable, and then wonder why it wouldn't work as well, or worse, burn the cable.
Julian, have you looked into the disconnect button on Type2 cables? I am in need of one for my Tesla MYP. The Type1 US connetors have a NC switch around a 330R resistor in series with a 150R resistor and pressing the button signals to the car. I cannot seem to see how this works for Type2 (the values of resistor are different). Any information would be greatly received.
Hi Julian, thanks for the insight. Actually, I bought a preowned Rav4 phv which came with a 15amp main power supply plug. This plug is not compatible with my country sockets, I am try Ng to replace the power lug with a 32a plug, however when I cut the cord, there are five wires: white, black, green which I understand but the two remaining pink and orange I don’t know what to do with. Please guide me. Thanks
Hi I bought a simple Type 2 Mennekes plug to Scucko socket for my electric motorcycle which only has a computer power cable socket so 1kW AC needed. When the AC Type 2 stations has socket it fits in and works fine, but there are Type 2 EV charge stations with Type 2 cable instead of socket. In the cable end my Type 2 plug does not touch the pins, the plastic spacing is too long. Can I cot a centimeter from the plastic plug end just to fit both socket and cable Type 2 chargers?
This is very interesting, thank you. I have a problem, I purchased an 'all in one' Type 2 to UK 3 pin adaptor and its not worked since new - the Pod Point (UK) seems to run checks when plugging in but after a few seconds wont authorise power delivery. The resistor in my adaptor measures .995kohm and its connected between PE and CP. There is also a direct link wire between PE and PP (marked CC on my plug). So your video suggests my resistor is on the wrong pin? It should be to the PP pin? Further, is the direct link even required? Many thanks to anyone that can help please!
Correct me if I am wrong - 1500R 13Amp = 240Volt AC x 13A = 3120 Watt Per hour at 30p for every 1000 Watt, Charge time say 8 hours = 24960watt / 1000 = 24.96 24.96 x 30p 748.8p = £7.49p. I round up because your electric supplier rounds up your bill. How far would your car be charged and how far can you travel on said charge?
Hi! I have a type 2 one phase L1 to Schukko cable. It does not have any pwm stuff inside. just a directly connected wire instead of button to signal proximitry and a resistor for max 16Amps current setting. I plan to extend it and put 2 more chargesers on one by one on L2-N, L3-N pins. I will wire Schucko plug socket for them. Sono extra electronic and stuff needed? I will have max 16Amps at both phases on 230V AC? so 3 times 16Amp current max? My chargers are L1 1.3kW, L2 2kW, L3 2kW. I have to plug L1 first, that has CAN communication to battery to open relay. I will plug in other 2kW chargers manually to socket on L2 then L3. I think better to use both phases instead of L1-N only to be similar flow on neutral, but some charge stations like in india have one phade Type2 AC only.... I am in EU, Hungary, here 3 phase is the common and if not balanced 3 phase load it reduce max power to 3.6kW.
So I’ve bought a car side (male) type 2 socket. I just want common garden 240v to charge my work batteries. How do I wire the cp and pp pins so the charging station knows it’s plugged in?
Is there an easy way to interrupt the type 2 proximity pilot feed after 15 mins, and restablish (repeating in a loop), until the car is fully charged or physically unplugged?
Friggin youtube! I was so confused about why you're suddenly talking about EV charging. RUclips didn't show me your video from yesterday! I was literally on here all yesterday (and today) and it didn't once show up in my feed!
Show us your new car. Unlike you, I got nothing for xmas! Even from myself 😪 Also, a small dab of silicon or weather caulking will do the job of repairing the o-ring. EZPZ.
Those resistance values are the definition of the stupidity of the ccs charging standard. Let’s go high to low so that eventually we get to such a low value that we have to create an entirely new standard when chargers get more amps! Instead of low to high so there’s basically no limit. As to why the charging stations aren’t a rectifier and boost converter and the plug just pilot, prox, earth, neg and positive allowing cars to skip all of that for weight too and if you want to borrow at someone’s house (rare) it’s trivial to create a 15 amp box to put in your trunk. There shouldn’t be any AC charging standard but instead we have a stupid design with 9 pins instead of 5 that’s MORE money in copper than just putting the converter in the home charging station (pulsed sicfets that can drive 900v at 100a x 4 will cost you $60usd and the extra 2 wires in 3 phase will cost you well over $150 now. Dumbassed design by commitee. At least Tesla just figured out how to detect and shunt AC on the same as DC. But even then it should never have supported AC and even if there’s an argument for keeping that in the car, there’s no case where you need 3 phase instead of just using dc plus buck from 3 phase power or if you’re plugging in at a friend’s house, use one phase with the superior Tesla plug. Just dumb all around.
I need to argue with you on a few points. First, using high resistance to indicate high current capability is a _terrible_ idea when you consider the possibility of a dirty connector. A high resistance connection should NOT result in increased current draw for obvious safety reasons. Plus there is no point in worrying about signaling for more current when the connector can only safely handle so much. In my opinion it makes more sense to have an in-car charger for everyday charging because it enables cheap charging stations (enabling easier adoption) and it enables cars to use whatever sort of battery they wish without worrying about charger compatibility. Plus DC charging requires more safety engineering which would increase costs. And regarding the number of pins, I don't know where you're getting 9 from. The single phase American plugs are five pins and even European plugs with all three phases populated are still only 7 pins. The "bolt-on" plugs for DC fast charging don't use the AC pins so they are still only five wires. Where I do agree with you most is that there's little need for on-board three phase chargers.
@@eDoc2020 1. Yes they shouldn't have used resistance at all. They should have used actual data pins with RS484 or CAN. Your argument goes both ways. And the connector itself can handle 3x the power it's taking with larger wires so yes, they screwed the pooch. 2. A Bridge Rectifier costs a few cents. There's no serious cost increase at all. In fact that there is a massive decrease because of fewer wires. At the worst case (single phase 240VAC) it would cost about $1 more while vastly simplifying the rest of it and making your car significantly cheaper. For 3 phase or any DC charge station that also has to support AC (yes they exist) you're saving 3x. 3. DC power is SAFER, not more dangerous. At any given voltage, DC will be less likely to kill you, not more. This is explicit in the UL and other data. As a small example, AC max human touch safe is 50V, DC? 120V. AC will go to ground in general. DC? You can be sitting in a bath tub with the wires right beside you and as long as you don't get in the middle of them, you're not going to get electrocuted. (in fact, DC is so much more safe that most DC doesn't even have earth pins specifically because there is exactly one way in a DC circuit (below 1500V) to die: Put your heart in the middle of the positive and negative. AC? Below 1200V there are endless ways to die, which is why we have GFCI and AFCI breakers now that cost a fortune. DC takes less to certify in both the US and Europe than AC because of these facts. (I know I just did it and it was less than half the UL cost for 384VDC than a similar device that was powered from 240VAC. (yes both had to be isolated and pass the same surge tests) 4. PINS: A CCS Type-2 is 3 AC, Earth, PP and PE. That's 6. If you add the DC wires on the bottom too it's now 8. So not 9, I counted wrong, but still the same increase in power wires that cost a fortune. Meanwhile, the Tesla cable is 2 + Earth + PP + PE and the last 3 are small clustered around the 2 big ones. And there was never any reason to do more than that (and the PP isn't needed either since it should all be RS484 over the PE). A DC CCS Type 2 can literally have 5!!! 3AWG or larger copper wires instead of 2. By using a rectifier in the charger (or wall wart that plugs into mains if you wanted) and supplying whatever DC voltage that gives you (560ish for 3 phase AC, 340ish for 240AC and 170ish for 120AC) and then the car having a standard Full Bridge DC/DC Converter, which it must have anyhow, you just cut the cost of the device in half that goes on your wall. Not increased it. And in countries with 3 phase AC, you even cut the wall wart that is in the back of the car for emergencies by 1/3rd by definition. While simplifying the entire design. AND You open up Battery Caching with efficiency and elimination of waste on systems that are using Tesla powerwalls etc. because no inverters are required thus saving 16% (minimum in best case scenarios that virtually never happen, more like 25-30% in real world) inefficiency in current EV charging from solar. (i.e. about 98% efficiency on the Full Bridge converter in the car and nothing else, because no isolation is required from a Powerwall because the isolation happens from the mains to the battery so you don't have to isolate battery to EV) It's a no brainer.
@@jameshancock 1. For basic signaling resistance and continuity is more reliable than smart protocols. 2. How does moving the rectifier reduce the number of wires? For AC you need L, N, and E, for DC you need +, -, and E. You can't use a a cheap rectifier on three-phase because that would always result in poor power factor. AFAIK there aren't any DC charge stations that also support AC because the DC-capable plug doesn't fit in AC-only vehicles. 3. I'm not sure about the shock implications of AC vs DC but I can tell that your bathtub analogy is invalid. DC and AC are equally likely to go to ground. 120vac from the wall in the bathtub is certainly more dangerous than 120vdc leads from a battery bank but at the same time I'd rather sit in water with 120vac from an isolation transformer than a 120vdc supply with grounded negative. Outside of power factor correction and special interface requirements if exporting power I don't see why a 384VDC device would cost more to certify than a 240VAC device. In any case I'm sure an AC-only EVSE costs much less to certify than one that also includes high-power AC-DC converters. 4. Your pin count was right the first time. The second time around you forgot the CP pin. Outside of a three-phase supply to the car (which I agree is a poor choice) single-phase AC charging and DC fast charging require the same number of pins. One is live, neutral, and PE and the other is positive, negative, and PE. Regarding charging a car from a Powerwall-like device, that is indeed something I did not consider. Having an extra inverter in addition to the charger will certainly make things less efficient. If I were in charge I would say that vehicles should have moderately-sized onboard chargers which accept AC as well as DC input. With such a system cheap charging stations could still be made for existing AC systems _and_ relatively cheap and efficient charging stations for DC setups would also be an option. DC fast charging could be an extra as it is now where an outboard charger isn't much of an issue because you'd already be upgrading infrastructure just to get that much power to the car in the first place. As a side note a benefit of dumb EVSEs vs smart DC chargers out in the wild is that there is little maintenance required. Public fast chargers in remote areas would be a nightmare from a logistical standpoint.
@@eDoc2020 1. Actually that isn't true. Resistance can be influenced by wires as you stated. A USB style Hi/Lo protocol doesn't have that issue and it has built in error correction and could get rid of 2 more wires. A simple PWM is either so large that you only have 5 or so values that you can possibly use, or you have risk of interpreting it incorrectly. USB/RS484/Ethernet style signaling has none of these issues. It either works or it doesn't, and it's exacting with error correction. 2. One way or another, there is a rectifier for 3 phase power. It's either in the car or in the charger. Same with single phase. It's either in the car or in the charger. The difference is that by putting it in the charger itself, the cable then always is +/-/E (E isn't really necessary nor does it really make the DC power any safer, but whatever. The DC won't go to earth anyhow even if you hook it up directly to either the positive or negative terminals so you're not saving anyone on a short) With a DC connector there is only 4 wires if done right. With Tesla they couldn't do 3 phase power, without adding 2 more conductors of massive size which would have doubled the cost of the cable. With CCS-Type 2, you're still paying for a massive connector and all of the wiring and logic in the car and the pita of hooking it up for nothing because you're insisting on putting the rectifier in the car and not the wall end of the cable. If it's an installed mount, then it's in the box in the wall. Then 4 wires come out, 2 small and 2 large and you're done. If it's plug into your buddy's wall jack, it's still a rectifier in the wall wart plug and 4 wires and you're done no matter what power standard you use. (and all of Europe is migrating to 3 phase by 2030, Britian might not because they're out of the EU but they'll have a hard time not doing so.) So, while it doesn't add to the wire count in the US, Canada, Mexico and Australia it will in virtually everywhere else in the world soon and you're adding something to the car that isn't necessary and everything that goes along with it too for no reason because a wall plug rectifier is tiny and cheap. We're talking about 20 amps max power and the PF doesn't matter for residential and most plugs in European 3 phase countries, the plug has single phase anyhow so they're already getting major PF issues. 3. All power goes to it's source. Doesn't matter if that's AC or DC. The DC source from - is +. The AC source is neutral OR anything earthed because of how they're hooked up. Thus DC power can't short from a single hand while you're standing in a puddle of water unless that DC - is also connected to the puddle of water. The AC one can and does all of the time which is exactly why GFCI breakers exist for AC and not DC. It's WAY safer to use DC power and this is reflected in the standards. And DC certification is CHEAPER not more expensive than AC specifically because DC isn't coming from the grid which is dirty and can sustain lightening strikes. DC is coming from isolated batteries and thus is tested at less than half the peak voltage and 1/100th the time interval so you can literally use an eFuse on DC depending on exposure versus having to use a transformer or capacitance isolation on AC. And note the only reason why the Tesla Connector has an Earth at all is because it accepts AC. It isn't necessary for DC service if coming from an isolated source but is used to ground the car at the same potential to the building to prevent static shock, not as a protective measure for an AC short. An AC only UL certification versus one that rectifies to DC has absolutely no difference in certification cost at all. In neither case is the power path isolated because nothing is exposed to the end user. The only part that has to be isolated is the interface, which is low voltage 3.3V (or 5V) + 12V power behind a transformer. None of that changes. In my design for an EV charging station in a house, the EV charging station just rectifies the power. That means 340VDC (or 540VDC rectified 3 phase AC) through the wires at whatever amps to the car. The car has the converter IN THE CAR, just like it does now for the standard to boost or buck it based on the battery size. What does change is that now you have a simple 4 wire cable that is as cheap or cheaper than the AC equivalent and the car has a simple 4 wire connector which is also cheaper, and the car only has to see AC AND it opens up direct solar. 4. If the cars are always supplied at the plug in the car with DC then 3 phase power doesn't really matter and everything is good. 3 Phase power is a problem and creates the stupid connector we have now when you're feeding AC over the cable and connector instead of 2 wire DC which the car uses anyhow. Solar: If you put in a $1 rectifier in the head of the cable, then you don't need the AC in the car at all. There's just no reason for a car to ever accept AC. If you're on 120V it's 2 diodes at 15a. If you're on 240V Single Phase you're 4 diodes at 50A max with a dongle and 80A with a wall adapter which is nothing. If you're 3 phase you're 9 diodes with the same as above. Keep it simple and make it always DC into the car. It costs nothing, has no overhead to do so, doesn't make it harder to maintain (in fact easier and cheaper) and makes it way easier for people to connect. (Tesla's data on the subject shows this because they have way more repairs in Europe with CCS-Type2 than they do with the Tesla connector). And then anything from 40VDC to 1000VDC (max of the standard now) should be accepted and boosted/bucked as required. You're done. Super simple, and all you've done is put the rectifier in the right spot so that every electric car has exactly one way to charge: DC of an arbitrary voltage. Side Note: There would be no more maintenance with 4 diodes (or 9 for 3 phase) than the current system. None. And because of fewer wires, the cable would be less thick and when it broke would be cheaper to replace and the connector on both the car and the wire would be less prone to breakage because it would be supporting a much lighter cable, especially in 3 phase power situations but also in all other configurations because of the stupidity of the size of the connector that is being shoved in and out.
@@jameshancock My comment with signaling reliability was more referring to the components used rather than the signal itself. But automotive CAN interfaces have been around long enough that it's probably not a real reason. So I'll give you that one. 2. You're kind of saying the same thing I was, the DC is safer while it is isolated from the grid. Regarding PF, it certainly does matter here. For one thing the EU requires PFC over 70 watts, and besides that PFC means you can use thinner wiring on the way to the EVSE. 4800 watts is 20 amps at 240v but without PFC you'd need more like 30 amps. So you basically need active PFC somewhere. If you're suggesting a steady constant-voltage DC feed to the car that means you need APFC electronics in the station _and_ a DC-DC converter in the car. If the car itself is fed with AC it can achieve APFC just by modulating the charge rate, eliminating a stage. To realize a safe two-wire DC system without a ground wire you'd need to isolate the supply first. That requirement of isolation turns your $1 bridge rectifier into a much more expensive power supply. So you'd definitely still need a ground wire. However I don't see why they couldn't use a GFDI and get away with a (relatively) small ground instead. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't see much of a benefit to using an external rectifier if the charging itself is still handled by the car. If the charge voltage itself is generated externally (as AFAIK it is for today's DC fast charging) it's a different story. As a note which may or may not make a difference here, I think the power electronics in an EV's motor controller could theoretically be used as charge electronics. I wonder if any existing cars do this.
I believe the resistor also allows the car to detect that a cable is plugged in even if it isn’t live to stop you driving away connected.
Amazing how the resistor can handle so much current! ;) :D :D
Julian! You are a strapping young lad!! ;-) Thank You for all your wisdom in the electronics field. Specifically, solar charging of storage batteries and all that is needed to keep it all running safe. You are a genius sir and I am looking forward to the help you will provide with your knowledge in this new age of clean energy consciousness.
In order to maximise our solar PV, I have fitted a 3 position switch to the Type 2 connector so that I can select 13A, 20A, or 30A. It's been very useful.
Thank you for the valuable information. I want to ask if the socket has the right value resistor for the existing cable cross-section, can we supply the EV directly from a home socket with the extension cable that doesn't have an ECP unit? Does EV pull a current that cable could carry?
Pick up an o-ring from a hardware store and cut a section out of it for filling in the missing seal area.
I don't know what the existing seal material is or if the end of your broken seal is accessible well but in the vacuum industry (thin films, semiconductors) and in a pinch, I bonded o-rings with super glue. Of course, skill at square cuts and alignment were necessary but it worked well and held vacuum so it would keep water out for you.
That Is crucial information and very simple concept even for people not educated in electronic engineering.
It's also important for DIY people who want to make their own cable, and then wonder why it wouldn't work as well, or worse, burn the cable.
In India, Diode 1N4001 is used between Earth and Proximity pilot
Julian, have you looked into the disconnect button on Type2 cables? I am in need of one for my Tesla MYP. The Type1 US connetors have a NC switch around a 330R resistor in series with a 150R resistor and pressing the button signals to the car. I cannot seem to see how this works for Type2 (the values of resistor are different). Any information would be greatly received.
Surely a better design for the 'handle' would be top half/bottom half rather than left half/right half?
Agreed.
Hi Julian, thanks for the insight. Actually, I bought a preowned Rav4 phv which came with a 15amp main power supply plug. This plug is not compatible with my country sockets, I am try Ng to replace the power lug with a 32a plug, however when I cut the cord, there are five wires: white, black, green which I understand but the two remaining pink and orange I don’t know what to do with. Please guide me. Thanks
Hi I bought a simple Type 2 Mennekes plug to Scucko socket for my electric motorcycle which only has a computer power cable socket so 1kW AC needed. When the AC Type 2 stations has socket it fits in and works fine, but there are Type 2 EV charge stations with Type 2 cable instead of socket.
In the cable end my Type 2 plug does not touch the pins, the plastic spacing is too long.
Can I cot a centimeter from the plastic plug end just to fit both socket and cable Type 2 chargers?
This is very interesting, thank you. I have a problem, I purchased an 'all in one' Type 2 to UK 3 pin adaptor and its not worked since new - the Pod Point (UK) seems to run checks when plugging in but after a few seconds wont authorise power delivery. The resistor in my adaptor measures .995kohm and its connected between PE and CP. There is also a direct link wire between PE and PP (marked CC on my plug). So your video suggests my resistor is on the wrong pin? It should be to the PP pin? Further, is the direct link even required? Many thanks to anyone that can help please!
I guess I am glad it was Short🙂
Yabba Dabba Doo! You must have grabbed that handle a long time ago. That is worth $Money$.
Needed a clarification on which side, the resistor of the proximity pilot integrated? Is it on the vehicle side connector or the EVSE side connector?
Correct me if I am wrong - 1500R 13Amp = 240Volt AC x 13A = 3120 Watt Per hour at 30p for every 1000 Watt, Charge time say 8 hours = 24960watt / 1000 = 24.96 24.96 x 30p 748.8p = £7.49p. I round up because your electric supplier rounds up your bill. How far would your car be charged and how far can you travel on said charge?
so, if change the resister, can change the charging current? right?
Hi!
I have a type 2 one phase L1 to Schukko cable.
It does not have any pwm stuff inside.
just a directly connected wire instead of button to signal proximitry and a resistor for max 16Amps current setting.
I plan to extend it and put 2 more chargesers on one by one on L2-N, L3-N pins.
I will wire Schucko plug socket for them.
Sono extra electronic and stuff needed?
I will have max 16Amps at both phases on 230V AC?
so 3 times 16Amp current max?
My chargers are L1 1.3kW, L2 2kW, L3 2kW.
I have to plug L1 first, that has CAN communication to battery to open relay.
I will plug in other 2kW chargers manually to socket on L2 then L3.
I think better to use both phases instead of L1-N only to be similar flow on neutral, but some charge stations like in india have one phade Type2 AC only....
I am in EU, Hungary, here 3 phase is the common and if not balanced 3 phase load it reduce max power to 3.6kW.
So I’ve bought a car side (male) type 2 socket. I just want common garden 240v to charge my work batteries. How do I wire the cp and pp pins so the charging station knows it’s plugged in?
I’ll clarify I just want ac to charge my Makita cordless batteries
Julian can i conect direct from plug to EV with a 660 Resistor? and work with avery car?
very well explained, thank you
Is there an easy way to interrupt the type 2 proximity pilot feed after 15 mins, and restablish (repeating in a loop), until the car is fully charged or physically unplugged?
Pod point? 😂 I'm looking into the same thing, did you get any further?
I have an type 2 adapter with a 200 ohm resistor and it does not work. Maybe a 1500 for 13amp? Maybe it should be 220 ohm?
a 220 ohm resistor rated at least 0.5 watt or higher is what you need for a 32 amp feed, make sure your cable is rated for that ampage.
Use 1500 . many charging stations cant provide this power .
So 1500 ohm will be 10 amp, what wattage resistor do I need please ?
Foiund out 0.5 watt or higher.
Friggin youtube! I was so confused about why you're suddenly talking about EV charging. RUclips didn't show me your video from yesterday! I was literally on here all yesterday (and today) and it didn't once show up in my feed!
Perhaps it's because the other video was on his main channel and this follow up on "Julian's shorts"?
Show us your new car.
Unlike you, I got nothing for xmas! Even from myself 😪
Also, a small dab of silicon or weather caulking will do the job of repairing the o-ring. EZPZ.
Those resistance values are the definition of the stupidity of the ccs charging standard. Let’s go high to low so that eventually we get to such a low value that we have to create an entirely new standard when chargers get more amps! Instead of low to high so there’s basically no limit.
As to why the charging stations aren’t a rectifier and boost converter and the plug just pilot, prox, earth, neg and positive allowing cars to skip all of that for weight too and if you want to borrow at someone’s house (rare) it’s trivial to create a 15 amp box to put in your trunk.
There shouldn’t be any AC charging standard but instead we have a stupid design with 9 pins instead of 5 that’s MORE money in copper than just putting the converter in the home charging station (pulsed sicfets that can drive 900v at 100a x 4 will cost you $60usd and the extra 2 wires in 3 phase will cost you well over $150 now.
Dumbassed design by commitee. At least Tesla just figured out how to detect and shunt AC on the same as DC. But even then it should never have supported AC and even if there’s an argument for keeping that in the car, there’s no case where you need 3 phase instead of just using dc plus buck from 3 phase power or if you’re plugging in at a friend’s house, use one phase with the superior Tesla plug.
Just dumb all around.
I need to argue with you on a few points. First, using high resistance to indicate high current capability is a _terrible_ idea when you consider the possibility of a dirty connector. A high resistance connection should NOT result in increased current draw for obvious safety reasons. Plus there is no point in worrying about signaling for more current when the connector can only safely handle so much.
In my opinion it makes more sense to have an in-car charger for everyday charging because it enables cheap charging stations (enabling easier adoption) and it enables cars to use whatever sort of battery they wish without worrying about charger compatibility. Plus DC charging requires more safety engineering which would increase costs.
And regarding the number of pins, I don't know where you're getting 9 from. The single phase American plugs are five pins and even European plugs with all three phases populated are still only 7 pins. The "bolt-on" plugs for DC fast charging don't use the AC pins so they are still only five wires.
Where I do agree with you most is that there's little need for on-board three phase chargers.
@@eDoc2020
1. Yes they shouldn't have used resistance at all. They should have used actual data pins with RS484 or CAN. Your argument goes both ways. And the connector itself can handle 3x the power it's taking with larger wires so yes, they screwed the pooch.
2. A Bridge Rectifier costs a few cents. There's no serious cost increase at all. In fact that there is a massive decrease because of fewer wires. At the worst case (single phase 240VAC) it would cost about $1 more while vastly simplifying the rest of it and making your car significantly cheaper. For 3 phase or any DC charge station that also has to support AC (yes they exist) you're saving 3x.
3. DC power is SAFER, not more dangerous. At any given voltage, DC will be less likely to kill you, not more. This is explicit in the UL and other data. As a small example, AC max human touch safe is 50V, DC? 120V. AC will go to ground in general. DC? You can be sitting in a bath tub with the wires right beside you and as long as you don't get in the middle of them, you're not going to get electrocuted. (in fact, DC is so much more safe that most DC doesn't even have earth pins specifically because there is exactly one way in a DC circuit (below 1500V) to die: Put your heart in the middle of the positive and negative. AC? Below 1200V there are endless ways to die, which is why we have GFCI and AFCI breakers now that cost a fortune. DC takes less to certify in both the US and Europe than AC because of these facts. (I know I just did it and it was less than half the UL cost for 384VDC than a similar device that was powered from 240VAC. (yes both had to be isolated and pass the same surge tests)
4. PINS: A CCS Type-2 is 3 AC, Earth, PP and PE. That's 6. If you add the DC wires on the bottom too it's now 8. So not 9, I counted wrong, but still the same increase in power wires that cost a fortune. Meanwhile, the Tesla cable is 2 + Earth + PP + PE and the last 3 are small clustered around the 2 big ones. And there was never any reason to do more than that (and the PP isn't needed either since it should all be RS484 over the PE). A DC CCS Type 2 can literally have 5!!! 3AWG or larger copper wires instead of 2. By using a rectifier in the charger (or wall wart that plugs into mains if you wanted) and supplying whatever DC voltage that gives you (560ish for 3 phase AC, 340ish for 240AC and 170ish for 120AC) and then the car having a standard Full Bridge DC/DC Converter, which it must have anyhow, you just cut the cost of the device in half that goes on your wall. Not increased it. And in countries with 3 phase AC, you even cut the wall wart that is in the back of the car for emergencies by 1/3rd by definition. While simplifying the entire design.
AND
You open up Battery Caching with efficiency and elimination of waste on systems that are using Tesla powerwalls etc. because no inverters are required thus saving 16% (minimum in best case scenarios that virtually never happen, more like 25-30% in real world) inefficiency in current EV charging from solar. (i.e. about 98% efficiency on the Full Bridge converter in the car and nothing else, because no isolation is required from a Powerwall because the isolation happens from the mains to the battery so you don't have to isolate battery to EV)
It's a no brainer.
@@jameshancock 1. For basic signaling resistance and continuity is more reliable than smart protocols.
2. How does moving the rectifier reduce the number of wires? For AC you need L, N, and E, for DC you need +, -, and E. You can't use a a cheap rectifier on three-phase because that would always result in poor power factor. AFAIK there aren't any DC charge stations that also support AC because the DC-capable plug doesn't fit in AC-only vehicles.
3. I'm not sure about the shock implications of AC vs DC but I can tell that your bathtub analogy is invalid. DC and AC are equally likely to go to ground. 120vac from the wall in the bathtub is certainly more dangerous than 120vdc leads from a battery bank but at the same time I'd rather sit in water with 120vac from an isolation transformer than a 120vdc supply with grounded negative. Outside of power factor correction and special interface requirements if exporting power I don't see why a 384VDC device would cost more to certify than a 240VAC device. In any case I'm sure an AC-only EVSE costs much less to certify than one that also includes high-power AC-DC converters.
4. Your pin count was right the first time. The second time around you forgot the CP pin. Outside of a three-phase supply to the car (which I agree is a poor choice) single-phase AC charging and DC fast charging require the same number of pins. One is live, neutral, and PE and the other is positive, negative, and PE.
Regarding charging a car from a Powerwall-like device, that is indeed something I did not consider. Having an extra inverter in addition to the charger will certainly make things less efficient. If I were in charge I would say that vehicles should have moderately-sized onboard chargers which accept AC as well as DC input. With such a system cheap charging stations could still be made for existing AC systems _and_ relatively cheap and efficient charging stations for DC setups would also be an option. DC fast charging could be an extra as it is now where an outboard charger isn't much of an issue because you'd already be upgrading infrastructure just to get that much power to the car in the first place.
As a side note a benefit of dumb EVSEs vs smart DC chargers out in the wild is that there is little maintenance required. Public fast chargers in remote areas would be a nightmare from a logistical standpoint.
@@eDoc2020 1. Actually that isn't true. Resistance can be influenced by wires as you stated. A USB style Hi/Lo protocol doesn't have that issue and it has built in error correction and could get rid of 2 more wires. A simple PWM is either so large that you only have 5 or so values that you can possibly use, or you have risk of interpreting it incorrectly. USB/RS484/Ethernet style signaling has none of these issues. It either works or it doesn't, and it's exacting with error correction.
2. One way or another, there is a rectifier for 3 phase power. It's either in the car or in the charger. Same with single phase. It's either in the car or in the charger. The difference is that by putting it in the charger itself, the cable then always is +/-/E (E isn't really necessary nor does it really make the DC power any safer, but whatever. The DC won't go to earth anyhow even if you hook it up directly to either the positive or negative terminals so you're not saving anyone on a short) With a DC connector there is only 4 wires if done right. With Tesla they couldn't do 3 phase power, without adding 2 more conductors of massive size which would have doubled the cost of the cable. With CCS-Type 2, you're still paying for a massive connector and all of the wiring and logic in the car and the pita of hooking it up for nothing because you're insisting on putting the rectifier in the car and not the wall end of the cable. If it's an installed mount, then it's in the box in the wall. Then 4 wires come out, 2 small and 2 large and you're done. If it's plug into your buddy's wall jack, it's still a rectifier in the wall wart plug and 4 wires and you're done no matter what power standard you use. (and all of Europe is migrating to 3 phase by 2030, Britian might not because they're out of the EU but they'll have a hard time not doing so.) So, while it doesn't add to the wire count in the US, Canada, Mexico and Australia it will in virtually everywhere else in the world soon and you're adding something to the car that isn't necessary and everything that goes along with it too for no reason because a wall plug rectifier is tiny and cheap. We're talking about 20 amps max power and the PF doesn't matter for residential and most plugs in European 3 phase countries, the plug has single phase anyhow so they're already getting major PF issues.
3. All power goes to it's source. Doesn't matter if that's AC or DC. The DC source from - is +. The AC source is neutral OR anything earthed because of how they're hooked up. Thus DC power can't short from a single hand while you're standing in a puddle of water unless that DC - is also connected to the puddle of water. The AC one can and does all of the time which is exactly why GFCI breakers exist for AC and not DC. It's WAY safer to use DC power and this is reflected in the standards. And DC certification is CHEAPER not more expensive than AC specifically because DC isn't coming from the grid which is dirty and can sustain lightening strikes. DC is coming from isolated batteries and thus is tested at less than half the peak voltage and 1/100th the time interval so you can literally use an eFuse on DC depending on exposure versus having to use a transformer or capacitance isolation on AC.
And note the only reason why the Tesla Connector has an Earth at all is because it accepts AC. It isn't necessary for DC service if coming from an isolated source but is used to ground the car at the same potential to the building to prevent static shock, not as a protective measure for an AC short.
An AC only UL certification versus one that rectifies to DC has absolutely no difference in certification cost at all. In neither case is the power path isolated because nothing is exposed to the end user. The only part that has to be isolated is the interface, which is low voltage 3.3V (or 5V) + 12V power behind a transformer. None of that changes. In my design for an EV charging station in a house, the EV charging station just rectifies the power. That means 340VDC (or 540VDC rectified 3 phase AC) through the wires at whatever amps to the car. The car has the converter IN THE CAR, just like it does now for the standard to boost or buck it based on the battery size. What does change is that now you have a simple 4 wire cable that is as cheap or cheaper than the AC equivalent and the car has a simple 4 wire connector which is also cheaper, and the car only has to see AC AND it opens up direct solar.
4. If the cars are always supplied at the plug in the car with DC then 3 phase power doesn't really matter and everything is good. 3 Phase power is a problem and creates the stupid connector we have now when you're feeding AC over the cable and connector instead of 2 wire DC which the car uses anyhow.
Solar: If you put in a $1 rectifier in the head of the cable, then you don't need the AC in the car at all. There's just no reason for a car to ever accept AC. If you're on 120V it's 2 diodes at 15a. If you're on 240V Single Phase you're 4 diodes at 50A max with a dongle and 80A with a wall adapter which is nothing. If you're 3 phase you're 9 diodes with the same as above. Keep it simple and make it always DC into the car. It costs nothing, has no overhead to do so, doesn't make it harder to maintain (in fact easier and cheaper) and makes it way easier for people to connect. (Tesla's data on the subject shows this because they have way more repairs in Europe with CCS-Type2 than they do with the Tesla connector). And then anything from 40VDC to 1000VDC (max of the standard now) should be accepted and boosted/bucked as required. You're done. Super simple, and all you've done is put the rectifier in the right spot so that every electric car has exactly one way to charge: DC of an arbitrary voltage.
Side Note: There would be no more maintenance with 4 diodes (or 9 for 3 phase) than the current system. None. And because of fewer wires, the cable would be less thick and when it broke would be cheaper to replace and the connector on both the car and the wire would be less prone to breakage because it would be supporting a much lighter cable, especially in 3 phase power situations but also in all other configurations because of the stupidity of the size of the connector that is being shoved in and out.
@@jameshancock My comment with signaling reliability was more referring to the components used rather than the signal itself. But automotive CAN interfaces have been around long enough that it's probably not a real reason. So I'll give you that one.
2. You're kind of saying the same thing I was, the DC is safer while it is isolated from the grid. Regarding PF, it certainly does matter here. For one thing the EU requires PFC over 70 watts, and besides that PFC means you can use thinner wiring on the way to the EVSE. 4800 watts is 20 amps at 240v but without PFC you'd need more like 30 amps. So you basically need active PFC somewhere. If you're suggesting a steady constant-voltage DC feed to the car that means you need APFC electronics in the station _and_ a DC-DC converter in the car. If the car itself is fed with AC it can achieve APFC just by modulating the charge rate, eliminating a stage.
To realize a safe two-wire DC system without a ground wire you'd need to isolate the supply first. That requirement of isolation turns your $1 bridge rectifier into a much more expensive power supply. So you'd definitely still need a ground wire. However I don't see why they couldn't use a GFDI and get away with a (relatively) small ground instead.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't see much of a benefit to using an external rectifier if the charging itself is still handled by the car. If the charge voltage itself is generated externally (as AFAIK it is for today's DC fast charging) it's a different story.
As a note which may or may not make a difference here, I think the power electronics in an EV's motor controller could theoretically be used as charge electronics. I wonder if any existing cars do this.
The big boy EV chargers can spit out 250KW ~ 350KW ~ (CHAdeMO 3.0) 500KW and over
Over and over and over again of the same as the answering machine