Performance Timing Curves For Dummies Like Me (Ignition Basics, Distributor Mods, And Tuning)
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- Опубликовано: 27 ноя 2024
- In this video, I give you some of the basics on ignition timing curves, why we need them (usually,) and what you need to do to make yours work on a warmed over American V8, utilizing extensive and specific anecdotal knowledge based around the small block Chrysler engine.
The difference between you and Tony is, you show more. You demonstrate with comedy. Keep it up Dude, I love your channel.
Hey hey hey! I’m not a younger guy, I am 40 and I am now learning about combustion engines. These videos are educational to me.
Well hey, you’re still a lot younger than the guys that were doing this when these cars were new. Haha.
@@DeadDodgeGarage 🤣
🇺🇸👍 Back when I was a young buck (22) now (68) racing brackets at Ontario Motor Speedway racing a modified 289 K with a Crane Fireball Camshaft and all the rest of the standard Mods including a Mallory Duel Point distributor it had a key you inserted to adjust max advance. When adjusted made a positive difference, but what made a difference was when an old timer told me if you have a high performance motor run a colder plug standard was BF-42 changed it to a BF-32 what a difference first run out banged 2nd gear twisted a axle as if it was made of aluminum foil in half. Damaging the other axel as well but not in half. Replaced both with better grade axles. Went on to run mid - low 10s with a 64 1/2 4 speed Mustang not bad. You Sir do Great Presentations on your videos and good fun topics. I alway look forward to your next. I have 4 MOPARs and 3 FORDs .
Thanks for the video. I have one of those Progression distributors. Unlimited numbers of curves at the push of a couple buttons on your cell phone. This thing is incredible.
I’m sure that’s cool - until it breaks… I like it in theory. In practice, I don’t want Bluetooth involved in my build.
This guy teaches me more about engines and how they operate better than any research I've ever done 😭 as someone who wants to build up my own collection of rusty old cars to have fun in all of this information will come in very useful one day and I'm thankful, keep up the amazing work DDG!
Painfully enlightening. Now I see I have only just begun to get my rig right.
Same here. DAMNIT
You are absolutely spot on with this whole Ignition. From my past experiences I always thought it was A carburetor issue no matter what the problem was hahaha. Ignition Ignition Ignition IS KEY!!!
And you mentioned cookies 🍪 hahahha
Omg! I'm not the only person in the world with a 3 pedal Mopar! Nice car buddy
No I have… a few. Haha
"Just some guy," you are clearly the tune-up master!
I don’t know about master, but we’re getting there.
idealy to the second power was the key to my understanding the whole deal. Lol Seriously, nice info on ignition setup.
Perfect timing? :-)
I know it's not the intent. But many of these 'hot rodding' videos really impress me as to the sophisticated engineering of stock.
Damn it… that would’ve been a much better title. Lol. The good folks at Chrysler knew exactly what they were doing. We’re the ones that came in and ruined everything with our ridiculous camshafts 😅
Good video. I'm using an FBO limiter plate on my stock distributor with good results. I'm at 18/18 for a stock 440.
Oh! I forgot all about those.
Got 2 of those pertronix distributors, module lasted 40 hours on 1 motor,41 hours on other. That's right,2 360 in boat. You want them ,can have them. Went back to original Chrysler electronic. No issues.
No I’m good on that. Lol.
This is where an adjustable vacuum advance on your distributor comes in. Hook it up to manifold vacuum and enjoy more timing at idle. Do this after your mechanical advance is perfected just like your doing in this video. 👍
The common “adjustable” Chrysler vacuum advance has an adjustable spring rate, but not an adjustable amount of timing added. The latter would be a whole lot more useful - and figuring out how to easily modify the amount of advance for use on manifold vacuum as you are suggesting will be the subject of a future video.
Just nose up to a tree in gear and start turn the dizzy till the tires start scratching 😆
Great explanation of the black art known as timing
In my experience when people think they have carburetor problems It's usually ignition.
That engine looks divine
Thanks! Proud of that.
Funny video. Tech info overload. Im building a sbc with my 1st. big cam. So far its ran for 15 mins before 2 or 3 rocker arm nuts back off and the roller tip is way off center. Not good for the initial breakin run. The 1st 4 trys it only ran for maybe 120 seconds before it loosened those useless polylock nuts. Finally got some GM nuts off a 69 pickup. Going to try today.. Good video man. Good lookin car too. Nice job. Also, DAMN. You got a nice big messy shop. When i hit the lotto thats me
I am amazed by the quantity AND quality of your output! Maybe it's because you know so much about the subject and you can film right where you are. I am starting work on a Substack channel about electricity, and it takes me hours to write one piece. It's the research that takes so much time. So I might move to another topic even though I love electricity.
I really like electricity too - DC electrical systems are kind of my happy place. Which is weird… because they are the bane of many mechanics’ existence. My videos are mostly full of practical knowledge, and not so much technical theory or historical information. There are occasional things I have to look up, but for the most part, yes - this is all off the top of my head. There is no writing. The channel is essentially me cataloging and sharing specialized info that I have collected or constructed over the years, and showing projects that I would probably be doing anyway - with my particular sense of humor fully baked in to the final product, for better or worse. Haha. I don’t think I could do this if I wasn’t fully in the world I’m making videos about. The editing takes quite a bit of time already. Anyway, thanks! And good luck in your endeavor.
Thank you for making a video on this !!!
Have you ever used a Lean Burn distributor (no centrifugal advance) in a race application? I have done it on big and small blocks, and they work, but a locked-out MSD seems to work a little better (time slip). I think it's rotor phasing. But it is a budget way to get the race setup, as nobody wants Lean Burn anymore. LOL
Interesting idea! No, I’ve never done this, but it makes perfect sense. I’ve always just thrown those away 🥲 I’d definitely be suspicious of the rotor phasing in that case. Just judging by the scorch marks under my cap, the locked out MSD wasn’t phased correctly either. Not sure what to think of that really - but I should have checked.
I loved showing my Friends the quick (lightweight advance springs) on the Mechanical side then Leave Vacuum Advance Disconnected, leave Distributor snug and time by Feel !!’ I never did the Weld limit trick though but im aware!
Then we need to Figure out the Power Valve to run 🤦🏻
On the up side, I now kind of understand timing and how it works. I don't do this kind of work but I watch a lot of guys like yourself on the you tubes that do and now I will at least have a clue. On the down side, I didn't win a cookie. I spotted what seemed to be a nice condition Dakota in the back ground. Really wish Dodge would bring something like that back. Ford was smart enough to bring back a true small size truck with the Maverick. Unfortunately it's, you know, a Ford.
Dodge/ram/Chrysler has long enjoyed shooting themselves in the feet by not selling the trucks the people want… real crew cabs were gone for over 20 years. While suburbans and expeditions sold like hotcakes, Dodge didn’t have one. The Ramcharger left the party early. They had the perfect engine and chassis for a heavy duty diesel family hauler SUV, and they never built it. And now the small pickup. They’re just not good at stuff.
Haha that's not a small truck.
Even the ranger is the size of a mid 90s f150.
But in order to have small pickups again they'd have to get 40-50mpg thanks to epa standards.
But it's cool you can go buy a 10mpg brodozer.
They want us to use up all the oil ,so we are forced on electric.
See how that works
Late model Chrysler engines have detonation sensor electronics and distributors that are backward compatible. I use this system on my Paxton supercharged slant six. You make things far more complex than necessary.
What system? Which late model chrysler engines? The Magnum doesn’t even have detonation detection. I know nothing about any of this.
hi Jamie thought you may be interested. I contacted you months back about 440 headers glowing red at temp. So turns out it was a distributor bad. It was new but after market. So not sure what was wrong but replaced it with Proform distributor and Boom. No more problem. Crazy. Just thought id pass that on. Thanks for the videos brother !!!!
Oh wow. Well, glad you got it figured!
Get to watch me some Dead Dodge grage on a saturday!
Really great video. Appreciate it. Appreciate you making it and it's really informative
My stockish mid 80s 318 like 21 degrees of initial and 36 total anything more it pings and it has a stock cam
Fantastic video man! Reaffirmed what I learned from trial and error. I have those same valve covers with 2 breathers. I see you have one side capped and the other side with a hose to the carb. Does that perform better?
I haven’t done any A/B testing, I’ve just usually run that setup on go fast type engines.
Those are timing gear bushings, for degreeing a cam
Interesting. I wonder if I ever knew that…
on the 360 i had i set 15 degrees 20 degrees advance total 35 ran great
That braided line is from a hardware store like home depot.
It is used for plumbing water lines.
You can pick it up very cheap , looks like braided steel line and is stronger than plastic line but it is NOT for use in an automotive fuel system.
The fuel line on my Demon? The AN line with AN fittings? Or something else I’m missing here?
@@DeadDodgeGarage oh crap my bad...i was repling to a UTG vid and for some reason it posted to DDG.
I will remove the comment.
@@cuda70gt7 This has happened before! Comments magically appear on my videos that don't belong! And funny enough, he did a whole video on those lines after your comment. Haha.
@@DeadDodgeGarage yes i saw the UTG vid on hardware store steel braided line. Quality vid.
First, great video! Second, why not convert the mechanical distributor ignition to coil on plug ignition controlled by an ECU? Wouldn't that make things easier? Maybe the reason to not do that is that there is something appealing about using periond-correct technology?
I don’t think engineering a COP system would be easier… dealing with a black box full of magic doesn’t sound fun. Yep, you got it. The entire appeal here is that experience - honestly, I don’t even want the MSD ignition in this car. I’d prefer to run one of the systems that was used on the car in the 70s. I am planning to do that in the next phase, when I reinstall a bunch of the factory parts on the original 340. The car came with an EFI kit - I would never install that either. My vision for this car is that it lives in the mid 1970s where it belonged - where it was a competitive stock eliminator racer. There are plenty of modern Hemi swapped cars out there, with EFI, modern ignition, and probably a bunch more horsepower… this will never be one.
Now, for other projects? I could get all kinds of scientific and crazy… I’m currently working on pieces for a turbo EFI slant six build. I have long contemplated adapting a set of COP Jeep 4.0 coils to the slant.
@@DeadDodgeGarage Thanks for the reply! I happened (by chance) to see an Uncle Tony video today where he explained the benefits of a physical distributor system with points instead of going all-electronic, and it was surprising to me. It also reminds me of the channel called Rare Classic Cars & Automotive History run by a car collector named Adam, who says that he has often replaced stock electronic "points" with physical points beecause the early electronic ignition modules too often left him stranded. Like you, "I am just some guy" and I am old enough to remember when physical points and distributors were the norm, and today I am very impressed by modern coil-on-plug, ECU-controllled ignition, even though I do see the appeal of the old technology.
Your grass is tall. When are you going to adjust the timing curve on the lawn mower?
As rarely as possible…
issue fix:
either more compression (pistons or heads) or less camshaft (less duration)
which one is less labor-intensive?
then you will need a lot less base timing. shouldnt need more than 14-18 since the biggest bushing on MSD is 18 so then that would put you at 34-36 total with the mechanical advance
Yep, you're exactly right.
@@DeadDodgeGarage or get an E-curve MSD. you can make that anything you want
Car sounded a lot better at the end. Oh yeah, Fix your E brake handle. 😆
hey man🤙
i have a question and maybe you can help me.
please don't mind me asking. people around me can't help, cause they have no clue to fix anything on that car.
i got 318 mopar with a carter 2bbl from 1970. (plymouth fury)
first of it all, he's not really pulling the butter off the bread. he starts really god, and takes immediately gas when I hit the pedal. there is a bit of shaking when I stand in gear but I think that's normal. no shaking or quiver while driving.
but
the right side of the exhaust( standing behind) blows white, sucks paper in and is cold. the left side blows just hot and spits sometimes ( dirt water or oil, i dont know, runs to fat)
today I checked ignition, sparks and plugs, timing everything is on point.
I adjusted the carburetor with a negative pressure clock and its steady in green. all fine also.
I even sprayed off the carburetor with brake cleaner to hear if something is leaking. nothing.
did a cylinder pressure test and I think he's a bit tired. they are all around 100psi ( 6.8bar) first cylinder had just 5.9 bar😮
but I don't think that's the reason why he is not getting over a hill and kills the engine.
greetings from germany✌️
Oooohhhh… those compression numbers definitely aren’t great. Does this car have factory exhaust manifolds? There is a valve in the right side manifold that closes to force the exhaust to go through the crossover under the intake manifold. Sometimes they stick shut, which will almost completely cut off the exhaust flow going through that pipe. It’s ok at idle, but it can definitely reduce the power that the engine makes quite a bit. See if that valve is possibly stuck, and if you can open it! Somewhere to start at least. If you have more questions, you can email me at jamienoise@gmail.com and I will help you as much as I can.
@@DeadDodgeGarage
Thanks for response. Very kind of you.
I found and checked the valve on the manifold.
There is a disc on that valve. im able to rotate it clockwise and it turns back automatically.
I startet the engine and and I gave it full throttle when idling. nothing has moved. I had also engaged a gear and accelerated with the brake pressed, but it hadn't opened either, and the disc wasn't moving.
I'll try to fix the disc somehow after I've turned it, maybe the driving behavior will change then.
Again. Thanks for your time.
And thank you for that mailadress. i will write to you there
@@Herr_Keystyne If it's moving freely then this likely isn't going to be your problem - but it should also open at least part way when you rev the engine. You might check your exhaust again after the engine has warmed up, as this valve's job is to be closed when the engine is cold.
I'll take that cookie now...and some beer
Party at my place tonight. Probably a bit of a drive for you. 😅
@@DeadDodgeGarage I'll be there! In spirit. Haha
What engine is this that you are upgrading in this video . What is the displacement?
This is a 360.
same 1977 ram 360 RV
would i need to adjust my base timing any further from stock (4 BTDC) for a simple top end upgrade - 4bbl and high rise dual plane intake (air-gap style)
8 doesn't feel like enough but it runs quite smoothly
15 definitely feels like too much
currently testing a range from 4-12
It would almost certainly take 8-12 base happily in stock form. The factory setting was probably that late for emissions purposes. A carb and intake change alone don’t affect the engine’s timing needs. Simply advancing your base timing will result in too much advance on the top end - that’s where recurving your distributor comes in.
bookmarked to review since the 318 is getting a cam upgrade, and engine 2.0 will have even more.
Got 2/3 through… ran outta time.
So, get a custom msd bushing. Mine 10 degrees, i had to shape it to an oval to work.
There are charts out there showing roughly how much advance a given cam duration @.050 wants.
For example 248-260 @.050 wants 22-30 degrees initial.
Start in that initial zone, find best idle and figure out what you need to do to achieve your desired total.
That’s the idea! That’s what I ended up doing with mine. I think I’ve got a 12 degree curve now, so 24 initial - 26 total. It’s working much better than locked out did.
@@DeadDodgeGarage I think you meant 36° total.
On the "top end," a slight timing retard actually helps (HP thus MPH). Played around with dual pickup Lean Burn dizzys and even dual point (tach drive) distributors, using the white (points trigger) wire on the ignition CD box. Works great, but the ultimate is a switched retard, triggered by either a hi gear pressure switch on the transmission or a timer. Mallory boxes are known for this retard feature without piggy-back modules or chips, but alas, MSD owns them and has gutted the Mallory lineup.. 😢
Very interesting. I am hip to swapping between the two sets of points in a dual point distributor for various scientific reasons. Welcome to the future… where everything sucks
Progression Ignition is a nice toy, try it :D
Waaaaay too much fancy science for my blood. But I’d like to at least play with it some day. I’ve had similar experience with the Sniper controlled timing. It’s great being able to dial in whatever you want.
Hello, Jamie, Where did you hide the HEI module on the Demon? 🙃
It doesn’t have HEI, it has a big ugly MSD box.
Gotta get my DDG fix
Why do Dodge Guys seem like overachiever's that's a compliment,
I’m not sure I qualify as an overachiever, and I’m not sure it fits many other Dodge I have known guys either. In my experience they just tend to be… strange.
Could you change the advance using the msd box ?
I know there are boxes out there with a timing retard function for boosted applications and such. Changing the timing in this way can move the rotor phasing too far from where it should be and do weird stuff. It’s much easier to just twist the distributor. If you really, really want fancy computer adjustable timing, individual coils are an option.
@DeadDodgeGarage not knowing which msd box you're using just thought it was a option you could set the base timing to 36 degrees and let the box deal with it and could over come the short comings of the near stock distributor I can't see a multiple coil set being worth it on a carb na set up maybe if it was fuel injected and boosted but I dont think it is worth the cost and headache otherwise.
Ok but my friends 71 demon had two scoops on the hood. Didn't they all?
No. Dual scoops were optional on the Demon 340. Dale thought they were included when he ordered the car, too - but they weren't. I bought a set of scoops for it, but I can't bring myself to drill holes in the hood.
This exactly the problem I have with a .060 and cammed 318. 1 gear sucks. 2 runs like scalded dog. 3 gear it drops off again. Never thought about a distributor upgrade. 🤦🏼♂️ summit racing hear I come
The summit piece does look pretty nice - and easier than welding. The one I have came as part of a complete electronic ignition kit. Basically their version of the Mopar Performance setup. Heck the ignition module is even light blue like the old school one I have.
I’m still waiting for my cookie….😂
I’ll put it in the mail if you want 😅
@@DeadDodgeGarage 😂
Is that a LD4B intake or a LD340 intake on the 360
LD4B, but I think I’m the proud owner of an LD340 as well!
the LD4B should be restricting the flow on 360 unless it has been modified ports much smaller than the LD340
@@DependableAutoTruck I'm sure it is. It wasn't the manifold I had originally intended to use, but that was robbed and put on my brother's POS for some reason. This 360 is from my '66 Barracuda, and the engine that was in it previously was a 360 with aluminum heads and a Performer intake. It was definitely robbing power at the top end, but it made all of the bottom end torque and did cool stuff on the street. Heck I had a single pumper Holley 650 on that engine and it was great. Turns out there are a lot of pieces of hardware that shouldn't "work" but produce acceptable results in many cases. We gasket matched the LD4B but didn't touch the runners. I have other ideas for the intake on this engine, but that will likely wait until it makes its way back to the Barracuda.
An annular booster carb would also help a lot with a "ridiculous camshaft" and a dual plane intake manifold.
I’ve read about those. I’ve never gone there - yet.
@@DeadDodgeGarage i would suggest the new edelbrock VRS-4150 for street performance. Or the quick fuel SS series. The annular style boosters atomize fuel WAYY better especially at low engine speeds and with cams with a large duration at low speeds. Also the much more atomized fuel will travel all the way to the end cylinders way better than large droplets from a downleg or straight booster so that the end cylinders dont run lean. Makes it much easier to levelize mixture across all the cylinders. Annular carbs are a little pricey, but way worth it.
Index your plugs . 🔥👍🏻🇦🇺💯
Incline dynometer.
I.E. the 6% grade 1/4 mile long hill that my place sits at the foot of.
I set my timing by how well it pulls that hill. I know, hillbilly AF.
Tuned by ear.
No, that’s awesome. I’m putting numbers and a bit of science to this currently, but I’ve arrived at this after years of messing with timing by ear and the seat of the pants.
I already reminded you to fix that e-brake handle.🙄
My daughter does the exact thing lol
Over my head but fasinating 411, I finally dropped out at 21:30 minutes...
It's a looooong video... it wasn't intentional. I trimmed 10 minutes off of what I started with 🤯
20* at idle will handle 99.9% of all bracket engines. Then limit the centrifugal advance to give you the desired total advance your combination needs. It’s not rocket science. All this stuff was figured out in the 50s and 60s. How to Hot Rod Small Block Chevrolets gave the low down long ago.
Locked out timing will eventually bite you in the azz with kick back and the motor won’t start and you lose the round.
On a real race car you have the start button live all the time with the ign toggle switch just to the right. Hit the button and when the oil pressure needle comes off the peg you flip the ign toggle up with index finger and b
BOOM the motor bursts into life.
Yep. That. Haha.
Where's My Cookie 😊
In the pantry 😃
DO NOT put Pertronix crap in your car's ignition system. It might be ok for your lawn mower though.
Ok, I’ll tell the thousands and thousands and thousands of people using them successfully. Yeah, they have issues from time to time. Find me an ignition system that doesn’t.
One day these Cars are going to be illegal and they will find this video and Findley figure out what's wrong with this old gas powered thing out in the barn that's been sitting for years.
Illegal? They’ll have to pry them from my cold, dead hands. I can only hope for my videos to be around that long 🥲
Well me a proud determined idiot. I go by what the "bible" says and buy what was made by the manufacturer. Should it all work great? Nice thought. Then I use degree key ways and cam sprockets to make my life even more interesting. Like the mopar performance distributor. You have to set it by 3 hard hits down the track. Hm.
You dont have a clue
Cool!