Just for my own sanity, I subdivided dominant chords into the following groups, managing extensions according to various modes: 1. Avoid Notes Group: *Avoid notes - avoided as dissonant and unstable .Usually treated as a "scale approach note" or passing note, placed on offbeats in 8th notes passages. X7 (nat.5,9;13) - Mixolydian. Avoid note = 4. X7sus4 (13) (like F/G) - Mixolydian. Avoid note = 3. X7b9b13 (nat.5)- Mixolydian b9;b13 (Harmonic Minor played from the V degree,outlines secondary dominant function of III7 or VII degree) Avoid note = 4. X7sus4b9 (nat.13) - Dorian b2 (Melodic Minor from the II degree) Avoid note = #9. or Mixolydian b9;b13 (Harmonic Minor played from the V degree) Avoid note = 3. X7b13 (nat. 5,9) Mixolydian b6 (Melodic Minor from the V degree, outlines secondary dominant function of VI7). Avoid note = 4. 2. All Good To Go (No Avoid Notes): X7#11 (nat.5,9,13) Lydian Dominant (Melodic Minor from the IV degree, outlines triton sub. function). X7alt (* all extensions altered) = Altered Scale (Melodic Minor from the VII degree). X7#5#11 (nat.9) or X7 9b13 Whole Tone Scale. (hexatonic scale - 6 notes) X7b9nat.13 (#9) Half Tone - Whole Tone Scale. (octatonic scale - 8 notes) X7sus4b9 b13 (G;C;F;Ab;Eb - sounds like kind of dominant) Phrygian (Major scale from the III degree) Simple! or..did I missed something?
Hallelujah, I've struggled with this definition ALTERED for years... great advice about asking other musicians which note they are playing DIMINISHED scale to the rescue......
To me an altered Dominant is a Dominant that has ANY alteration. This subject is very well explained by the Berklee suma cum laude graduate Felix Santos. He has a brilliant free masterclass on youtube (in spanish). He starts explaining that on every note you have a very strong harmonic that it is the fifth of the note, and that is one of the reasons you can omit the 5th of a chord. He says that when you see an Alt symbol on a chord you can actually play any alteration. because even if there is only one alteration in the symbol you get the resulting alterations too... Lets say you are playing C7b9 you also get the harmonic on the fifth of it Ab, the b13 or #5 Also if somebody is playing the C7#5 you get the #9 as the fifth of it. He says an altered dominant is stable, so if you want it to have more tension, you should make it semi altered. like b9 13 or 9 b13. here his explanation (spanish) ruclips.net/video/mbZEcOa7Uio/видео.html
I didn't actually know that musicians refer to it as 'some notes changed chromatically'. I never had that conflict with other musicians either. Guess I was living under a rock. It's just the way I learned altered chords and how to improv over them.
So say you sharpen the fifth, is that an augmented, or altered? Also, I'm loving the comment section, especially today. So many great questions and info being shared there as well as in the video. Your channel attracts some great viewers and I think that says a lot about what you do here.
"Augmented" is another one of these labels that is pretty vague. For some "augmented" is anything with a #5, and for others it's anything with a #5 that is not a dominant (in which case you call it altered). Truly, the more I explain these things, the more nitpicking I have to make with the labels - everyone seems to use them in a different way... ;)
I see a video on what to label "augmented" coming up now, lols. Thank you for the reply. That was easily the fastest reply I've ever received on youtube. Regardless, your channel is the best (and I usually shy away from ever using the word "best").
Altered chords comes from a scale built from the important minor chord of a dominant 7th chord a tritone away from the dominant 7th chord you are playing.. this scale is called a melodic minor DIMINISHED scale. So if you have a C7 chord the tritone dominant chord is F#7 and the important minor to that chord is C# minor. Therefore you play a C# melodic minor dimished scale.. Notes are C,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A,A#,C… Notice the A in the scale. It is there to make the Minor 6th diminished scale appropiate….That way you can play the entire scale with only two chords. The Minor 6th and the related dimished chord
It is true that this is used in different ways but, some ways are clearer than others, to me... A dominant altered chord is a dominant chord that has ANY altered tension and only altered tensions(9th 11th 13th) If it has a combination of altered an unaltered tensions I would call it semi altered. An augmented chord is not a dominant chord, it has no b7. C#5 or C aug is a triad If you want it to be an augmented dominant You need to write it C7 aug Or C7#5 To me a C7 #5 is actually a C7 with omitted fifth and b13 notes C E G# Bb7 if you use the enharmonic of G# (Ab) the notes are C E Ab Bb7 So to me C7#5 it is a clear way to express that you should rise the 5th half step, in reality doing that you are actually OMITTING the 5th and playing the b13 instead, but C7 b13 it is a better way to express what is going on with the harmony.
I normally differentiate between "altered" (lower case A) and "Altered" (upper case A). "Altered" is something quite specific in its alterations. The other has non-specific alterations. If the sixth is lowered - "Altered". If the alteration is somewhere else (and the sixth is presumed major) - "altered".
If you're talking about altered dominant then the dominant V7 chord function takes priority. With this in mind, altering the 5th and 9th notes in the harmony will affect melodic note choices (although playing unaltered 5th / 9th notes can create a nice dissonance depending on the register and note durations. I do not accept the altered scale idea one little bit. The melody sits on top of the harmony. Yes a musician can improvise using alternate dominants under a fixed melody, but I don't know any standard melodic lines which embellish using such dissonant tones. It's more likely than a musician will use various melodic alterations using chromaticism so not being fixed to just the altered scale e.g. you can play so called normal notes over the harmony, then sidestep to alter any note to create severe dissonance, not just the 5th or 9th So in summary 1. Alternate dominant infers an alternate harmonic function. 2. Use of the altered scale does not apply, at all.
I remember learning of this distinction long ago and not fully getting the relevance, but now I see how some misunderstandings came to be. I really love omitting notes, maybe the third of a major or minor chord so it's 7th takes on a stronger role in defining it, maybe an 11th, but with dominants it's often the 5 I get rid of. This seems like an area for cool modal exploration, that 5 can be implied with just the 1, 3 and 7, it can even be implied alongside a flat 5 taking on the role of a sharp 11 in context, but you can also double down on the altered scale over that same chord. Does anyone happen to have any cool examples? I've only tried one thing so far, matching it up with the highly contrasting Mixolydian mode from the same root, and it sounds awesome. I'll probably learn more about melodic minor as well, really love that whole tone stretch. Ooh, you can even play a complete whole tone scale if you lead mixolydian's 2 into all the other whole tones altered provides, it sounds equivalent if you play it as if it's played over mixolydian to altered changes, and very naturally let's you incorporate the whole tone scale, that's always such a cool option to have to me.
C13b9 .. A/C7 is also derived from F Harmonic Major scale mode 5 so in a V I jazz context ( due to an unaltered 5 and 9 ) I hear it as Mixo b9 because it's resolving to one ... think Misty ... if it was in a fusion setting as as a one chord static (non resolving vamp ) it may function more as diminished or some form of altered chord ... but we don't hear the Jimi Hendrix E7#9 as altered or diminished and that's a one chord vamp ... because the #9 is more to my ears a bluesy b3 and it's paired because a b9 (f) rather a E minor blues scale with a F# color note ... so it depends on where the chords going or not ...the E7b9 in the Beatles She s So Heavy is both bluesy and altered ...
I was educated with the first understanding of altered, one or more notes chromatically changed from a dominant chord. I always understood “the altered scale” not by that name but i understood it as the 7th mode in melodic minor scale.
I agree with the general premise that terminology has to be used with care to avoid confusion. In terms of application, there are some further basic things. Alt chord and scale are quick tabs to apply musical devices. But there has to be a context for them. The altered scale is a mess of concepts, and I think there is a simpler concept. It is a dominant chord from “Phrygian key” if such a thing existed. In other word, in E phrygian, no sharps or flats, the 5 chord is B…but you make it functional by raise third just as in E minor. So the scale you create by doing this creates the bizarre situation that it “seems” the 4th degree disappears, because you wanted Eb which is “out of key”. The miss named #9 preserves D natural. So the more correct way to view the alt scale is from the point of view of the b5, or F lydian dominant. I believe most musicians intuit this version of a scale concept and call it “tritone substitution” where the B alt is actually F lydian dominant. So should be spelled BCDEbFGA. A flattened 4th degree has the aural enharmonic illusion of the Major third, or raised leading tone (D#) in E phrygian. Next the other poly chord…while it is again having a nice Phrygian context as well, it does not need to derive from a synthetic 8 note scale (which has unneeded extra notes but works as a quick device assuming you start on the correct note). Rather, if you have E tonic again (EG#BDC#F), it is a dominant sounding chord in context, but the scale it derives from is mode 5 of A harmonic major (ABC#DEFG#). So in his example above, C7/A maj is actually from F major key, with b6. It is that simple. Of course diminished scales work in many other applications too, and is fun to play, but context usually clears up why things work or not.
Interesting indeed. I always try to de-escalate these discussions because we're all taught oddly. I was taught any chord that is not a normal 1357 chord is altered. So any minor is altered, a Dominant chord is altered by the time you get to the 7th. So thanks for this information into the various usages. P.S. Ironically, in English the E before the D is silent so 'altered' is a 2 syllable word "all turd" not "alt er ed", as you're saying it. Funny, no offense meant (I'm from US where we murder English routinely). "All turd chord" is right, even if a bit odorous. :)
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar I love the Italian-Canadian accent, don't get me wrong. Also, I meant any chord not 'Major' 1357 (like 1 and 4 of a key) was altered. So thanks again for more takes on this.
The combination of voice and accent are quite pleasing to listen to. But I think it also has to do with him having a musicality to the way he speaks. To my ears he speaks very rhythmically and in musical-like phrases.
interesting topic idea! after watching a singing decibel video earlier, i thought to myself, "I think people focus on random things like this too much, where singing is mostly just about having your scale so memorized from multiple instruments, you can recall it off the top of your head. " i can understand why you'd use Am as an example for beginners.. but personally, in a real life context, i'm always trying to write something more "standard" & "generic" in Am/C.. & even avoiding the harmonic minor "g#" a lot (regardless how much i love it..) the scale I always use an alt. dominant, trying to beat the sound of the scale into my head to sing - d#m... i definitely always try to do a fm7b5 - (Bm) - A# - d#m, ii.° - (bvi.) - V. - i. thing.. looking to bands like 'afi - the leaving song, pt. ii.' & 'linkin park - with you' for guidance...
When we try to understand chord progressions in terms of relation by semitones we set ourselves up for a lot of confusion. The problem is that MELODIC relation is not the same as HARMONIC relation. The circle of semitones is organized according to MELODIC relation, notes that differ by a semitone or a seventh are strongly related melodically but not harmonically. The circle of fifths is organized according to HARMONIC relation, notes that differ by a fourth or a fifth are strongly related harmonically but not melodically. Altered chords are only strongly related to the original chords melodically, but harmonically they are drastically altered from the original chord. If the altered notes were altered by a fourth or a fifth instead of by a semitone or a seventh then they would be strongly related harmonically. Musicians often confuse MELODIC relation for HARMONIC relation, failing to consider that "altered chords" are not actually SIMILAR chords at all but are highly DISSIMILAR chords For example the notes of the chord above, listed in their MELODIC circle of semitones order, would be C D E G Bb, but listed in their HARMONIC circle of fifths order would be C G D E Bb(=A#). The altered chords do not change their melodic order, all the altered notes are still in the SAME melodic order C Db D D# E Gb G G# Bb, but the harmonic order is utterly DIFFERENT, C G D E C#(=Db) G# D# Bb thus the altered notes switch the order entirely, the altered chord is largely UNRELATED the original chord as a chord!
I quite like these videos, discussing disagreements about terminology. Very interesting subject! :-) Good work, keep them coming! I'm curious to why you consider the altered scale to have a b5 and a #5 - I think of them as #4 and #5. Any intel?
With letters then you can’t have a letter used twice. This is because there is only one space on a musical staff for each note. Therefore F# and Gb would be correct, so yes it should be #4 and #5.
@@thearno2885 While I quite agree - we've already used a letter twice, Db and D# (b2 and #2/b9 and #9. So, the system is already "broken". Also, we have no sixth degree... so the main reason I'm asking is that I quite like to hear the b5 as a #4 in most situations. :-) But it's difficult - I guess the most "correct" way to label each note would be 1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, b7 - but that does not necisarily make it easier, as the different note names looses meaning when related to the sound (b4 especially).
I very much enjoyed you’re commentary on these altered chords/scales. There is always some uncertainty in these situations. I would respectfully add that if you are listening to the melody, you will most likely hear the altered tensions in the melody of the song in question. Alternatively, one could hear how the band leader(keyboardist?) plays the turnarounds. If he/she uses a certain altered tension you would be wise to use the same one for the sake of harmony, both musically and emotionally. Just keeping it real.😎
9:55 Thus why not diversify the term "Dominant Altered" into "Dominant Scale Altered" and "Dominant Chromatic Altered", eliminating the existing ambiguity altogether!
Just to get the record straight..An altered chord comes from a scale built from the important minor chord of a dominant 7th chord a tritone away from the dominant 7th chord you are playing.. this scale is called a melodic minor DIMINISHED scale. So if you have a C7 chord the tritone dominant chord is F#7 and the important minor to that chord is C# minor (chord built on the 5th degree of F#). Therefore you play a C# melodic minor dimished scale.. Notes are C,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A,A#,C… Notice the A in the scale. It is there to make the Minor 6th diminished scale appropiate….That way you can play the entire scale with only two chords. The Minor 6th and the related dimished chord….
I've been using the +/- notation for these. So C7-5 C7+5 C7-9 C7-10 (or +9) C7+11 C7-13, then you might get a C(ma)j13+5-10+11 which is not something you don't want to see. If there are more than three numbers behind C or Cm(inor), please find the chord over chord notation. Much rather see a G#7/Esus4 over the horrific litany of numbers in the sample. I'm using j for short for major7th on occasion.
Altered dominant chords are a dominant shell (root, 3rd and 7th + any other note but the maj7) that’s all. The term altered for a jazz played means all the chromatic notes are posible. For a compositional perspective is using notes on the dominant that are not part of the diatonic choice or scale. So in a sense Vb9,b13 is not an altered chord if the context is minor. because harmonic minor is not an altered scale, is Very much a part of the minor tonal construction options. Even if you are using it as a substitute for a mixolydian dominant in a major tonality, it does not serve you to see it only as altered, rather considering as well it is more a modal exchange with harmonic minor. Why? Due to integration of the whole view of what you are doing. Then it comes a better educational perspective that is to distinguished from fully altered or not, in order to organize your head by knowing that the basic chromatic extensions on a dominant come more often as Harmonic minor, melodic minor or symmetric or 8 note dominant scale. By knowing these any student knows where he is as he composes and chooses combinations of chromatic and diatonic notes in relation to the dominant chord. So fully altered belongs to “super locrian” melodic minor. And has all flats and sharps available in relation to the root of the dominant. The “altered scale” does not exist. Is just super locrian mode. And has a #4 or #11, you call it b5 preferably as to comunícate that there is no 9 or that is mostly used alone with the shell. The only think to know about the symmetrical scale is that it has a maj13, so it’s not fully altered. The altered definition depends on context not in people how where adoctrinated to think. And a complete proficient musician understands these differences. In terms of improvisation you can do wathever you want with any dominant. You can alter or un alter, you can mix and match. Etc. That’s my humble opinion and observance of what makes an easier and integrated panorama for students and my own process. Your videos are great, congratulations.
I'm using the old classical notation that just indicates the degree of the chord (the quality of the chord is implicit if you know in what key you are). This way, everything I say can be immediately understood for both major and minor keys.
Sometimes they are, depending if they have altered notes and/or then come from the altered scale. They are not 'altered' just because they come from a tritone sub.
Very, very, very long ago I thought that the biggest confusion in music theory was caused by that the European notation calls B H, and Bb B, and that small letters mean automatically minor chords while the capitalized ones mean majors and this is not true in the Anglo-Saxon tradition. I was ridiculously optimistic then.
Hey man I wanted to ask, where do scales that share ethnic names accurately derive from? Does that mean most modes have ethnic origins, we just can't find out where they originated? Like I had to do an extensive search to discover Harmonic Minor is really named the "Nahawand" Iranian mode. Compared to Phrygian Dominant which is usually referred to as the "Hebrew/Jewish/Freygish" Israeli mode very commonly.
Can the E7#9 in Purple Haze be considered an altered dominant? Isn't that song in E to begin with (meaning functionally the highlighted chord is tonic instead of dominant)?
Thank you for this! As a musician who has never dove into jazz (i simply dont like it) but is still fascinated by the theory, the altered chord sometimes using a natural 5 has confused the hell outta me. Sooooo...... just to be safe, wouldnt it make more sense to use the half-whole scale? That covers all cases except with the #5 :D
Half step-whole step and diminished are the same scale :) And yes, in general HW is used with natural 5 and altered with #5. And btw, the altered scale is a melodic minor scale 1 half-step above the root of the chord (and that's how jazz musicians usually think of that)
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar yes, G7b9 eqiv. Fm7b5/G a G7b9 can also for using the diminished scale over it or A minor triads. Classic altered dominant sounds in jazz.
... and you know that half of jazz players will say that this is not an altered dominant because the 5th is not altered? Note, I am not taking either position - just noting a fact. BTW, no, it's not equivalent to an Fm7b5/G as this last chord contains a Eb (enharmonic D#), NOT a natural D like the chord I spelled. YES this is a possible substitution, but it's not 'equivalent'.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar that's why I say...if it's a dominant 7 and has any additional notes it's an altered dominant. The 5 doesn't really color the harmony strongly enough to make a difference in most cases, though it can depend on the progression. Any additional notes are b or # the 9, 11, 13, basically... Look at the altered scale (half whole diminished / melodic minor mode) for factual confirmation.
To avoid confusion when playing with other musicians, write out all parts before you start. Practice these charts until the desired performance is achieved. Then, send all the musicians home with the requirement that they return to the following session with an analysis of the harmonies implied by the composition. Finally, spend the rest of the session arguing over everyone's respective analysis. For general historical context, see "the 'Tristan' chord."
Yes, that chord! Didn't know you already had a vid on it :-) My jest is correlated with the observation you made in that video, that the Tristan chord is a topic of much musicological debate.
What's the utility of using the "altered scale"? It seems like a jazz/guitar thing. I keep trying to guess what it's for but I end up deleting the sentence.
well it's a chord scale that lays out all the notes you can use within the chord: 1, b9, #9, 3, AVOID 4, b5, b13, b7. you've gotta keep 1,3 and b7 but the rest are extensions open to you. then you can use the altered scale to improvise over it. Symmetric is also super cool for dominant chords.
well it's a chord scale that lays out all the notes you can use within the chord: 1, b9, #9, 3, AVOID 4, b5, b13, b7. you've gotta keep 1,3 and b7 but the rest are extensions open to you. then you can use the altered scale to improvise over it. Symmetric is also super cool for dominant chords.
An altered chord comes from a scale built from the important minor chord of a dominant 7th chord a tritone away from the dominant 7th chord you are playing.. this scale is called a melodic minor DIMINISHED scale. So if you have a C7 chord the tritone dominant chord is F#7 and the important minor to that chord is C# minor. Therefore you play a C# melodic minor dimished scale.. Notes are C,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A,A#,C… Notice the A in the scale. It is there to make the Minor 6th diminished scale appropiate….That way you can play the entire scale with only two chords. The Minor 6th and the related dimished chord….
Well- the problem with jazz theory a lot of the time is that it's not carved into stone, there will be disagreements, and nobody can or should be ultimately 'correct'! Having said that, I'm going to argue vehemently against the first definition- for one thing I've never come across a person or situation who believes an altered dominant can have a natural 5. Out of genuine interest, can you point me to sources that teach this first definition of yours? Now, Baroque & Classical music onwards regularly use what jazz musicians would call a 7b9 which by your first definition is an altered dominant. When I hear that term, for me there is a subtle cultural implication that we are heading into interesting jazz territory, not solid Mozartian harmony! This is also partly why for me the 'Hendrix Chord' isn't an altered dominant- the natural 5 is strongly implied, and the chord doesn't hit my ear as a functional dominant which it would be if you added a b or # 5. My ear hears it as a mix between mixolydian & dorian. What's interesting is that if you take different 'altered dominants' by your first definition- let's say C7b9, C7b9#11 (but with the 5!), C7#9, and so on... they all sound very different with very different flavours. But if you take different chords that fit your second definition, eg C7b5b9, C7#5b9, C7b5#9, C7#5#9, etc... they all sound remarkably similar & obviously have a similar function and are reasonably interchangeable. As a further point of interest, I think it's much more simple for people new to the alerted scale to see it as a scale where literally every single note has been alerted by flattening by 1 semitone- except for the root note of course otherwise you just move your major scale down a semitone. So C major becomes C, Db, Eb, Fb, Gb, Ab, Bb Now functionally and musically, we can see this as C, Db, D#, E, Gb, G#, Bb- but I think that going straight to this spelling can be very confusing if we don't acknowledge how we ended up with these notes. It's also useful to realise that C altered scale is also a mode of Db melodic minor scale, in which case we absolutely want to use the first way of spelling the scale.
Lets call altered dominant chords when its from altered scale. Otherwise its an Augmented dominant chord. Especially because #5 is usually labeled as an augmented chord.
What i mean is to suggest, that this chord in reference to your firts point, we call it augmented in stead. In reference to your second point when derived from altered scale, then we call it altered. Think this is a good idea?
Just to be precise, I DO think it's a good idea to call a chord "altered" if it comes from an altered scale. But how do we call a chord that does not come from the altered scale? "Augmented dominant" works only if there is a #5 (or it comes from the augmented scale?)
So 1. is a C altered dominant (the dominant is altered) 2. is an Altered C dominant (the C is altered) and then confusion would be sorted. Sorry, day job mindset interfering here. :D
3. Neither of the above. If the C is altered it's no longer a 'C' chord of any type. If the 3rd and 7th are altered it's no longer dominant. It's the other notes in the chord you can alter. Thought this was clear from the video.
Andy Mellor it was clear from the video. And? It was also clear from the video that the naming is confusing and “whether you call them something else they sound gorgeous”. I hope you have a great evening.
Agree with ur comment that f# is not played simultaneously in the Hendrix E7#9 shape ... I meant the F# is more of a soloing note choice for that chord in the Hendrix context rather than F .... it's interesting because it's a Mixo - Dorian hybrid scale (e f# g g# a b c# d ) both are available depending on what scale mode u use on the chord ... And what effect or sound u want to evoke .... as you know :)
Theory/practice gap imo. We haven’t yet codified pop music theory so it’s still a complete bowl of custard. Gonna take years, but videos like this help (though I was irritated by the title)
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar hey thanks 1- many guitarist separate theory & practice. Most great guitarists have very good understanding of the theory but not the language. The practice (what we do) came before the theory (how we talk about it, when learning and working with others). Pop music steals its theory from both western classical music, and jazz, both of which have been put in big long books (eg Levine for jazz theory). Neither jazz or classical theory are completely right for pop. Not the best examples, but I know a few different chord symbol systems C- Cm7. I saw a whole long argument about if chord VII is diminished triad but half-dim - there were as many opinions as people arguing. So nothing is ‘missing’ it just needs pulling into coherent useable flexible language and guidelines. Fit for pop - and yes, I know, pop is a huge mix of stuff so 🤷♂️:) 2 - my irritation with your title is just my personal bugbear because the ‘even’ makes it just a little click bait (yes I know I should get over it, sorry). So when I read it my inner voice was grumpily going ‘of course we can damn well agree what they are!!!’ A me problem :). I call myself a pop musician cos I tend to end up playing three minute songs that have been successful. For fun I’ve been playing bluegrass recently. Whole bunch different terms and on one occasion I was the arsehole arguing from my ‘theory’ background and correcting something on a lead sheet. Thought about it and realised the language they all used was much better. Sheepish apology followed. Point being there’s different language in genres. Hope that’s interesting, and your teaching of this is great. Much better than mine (14 years teaching it in HE so I have a perspective)
The whole multiple names for things that no one can agree on deal is probably the worst thing about music theory. Like, what chord is F-B-C? Is it F Lydian? Fsus #4? B Locrian? Also naming isn't consistent at all. Some names make sense, others are awful. I have a special dislike for the "Dominant" chord. I understand it comes from the dominant scale, it has dominant function, and there's probably several other good reasons to call it that. I would be fine if it wasn't for it's cousin the minmaj7, which is just a much better name (imo). It tells me exactly what i need to play, a minor triad with a major 7th. What the heck is Dominant? majmin7 would be more clear.
Doesn't matter if you have creative genius and talent then guys like him come along and put some bogus name on the music and call it theory,ask this guy how many hit songs he has.Looks like algebra.
Oh, the old "if you have creative genius you don't need music theory". Never heard this one. For people who are after creative genius and originality, you guys all write the same comment ;)
It's completely fine if you don't use music theory. A lot of composers just write whatever they want and then use theory later to help them polish and re-arrange things. But just because you're either too lazy or dumb to study theory doesn't invalidate it's usefulness.
![Harry Potter And The TRISTAN Chord [Music Theory]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0dHri-5F4pU/mqdefault.jpg)
Only today I found your channel in my recommendations. Amazing quality content delivered in a fantastic way.
You just opened my eyes.
Excellent video.
I feel at home listening to your explanations! Great work! God bless you!
Man, your content is amazing and since I found the channel I’ve cleared up many doubts. Thank you!
Just for my own sanity, I subdivided dominant chords into the following groups, managing extensions according to various modes:
1. Avoid Notes Group: *Avoid notes - avoided as dissonant and unstable .Usually treated as a "scale approach note" or passing note, placed on offbeats in 8th notes passages.
X7 (nat.5,9;13) - Mixolydian.
Avoid note = 4.
X7sus4 (13) (like F/G) - Mixolydian.
Avoid note = 3.
X7b9b13 (nat.5)- Mixolydian b9;b13 (Harmonic Minor played from the V degree,outlines secondary dominant function of III7 or VII degree)
Avoid note = 4.
X7sus4b9 (nat.13) - Dorian b2 (Melodic Minor from the II degree)
Avoid note = #9.
or Mixolydian b9;b13 (Harmonic Minor played from the V degree)
Avoid note = 3.
X7b13 (nat. 5,9) Mixolydian b6 (Melodic Minor from the V degree, outlines secondary dominant function of VI7).
Avoid note = 4.
2. All Good To Go (No Avoid Notes):
X7#11 (nat.5,9,13) Lydian Dominant (Melodic Minor from the IV degree,
outlines triton sub. function).
X7alt (* all extensions altered) = Altered Scale (Melodic Minor from the VII degree).
X7#5#11 (nat.9) or X7 9b13 Whole Tone Scale. (hexatonic scale - 6 notes)
X7b9nat.13 (#9) Half Tone - Whole Tone Scale. (octatonic scale - 8 notes)
X7sus4b9 b13 (G;C;F;Ab;Eb - sounds like kind of dominant) Phrygian (Major scale from the III degree)
Simple! or..did I missed something?
Jimi Hendrix and Igor Stravinsky, the altered kings together at last
Hendrix, Stravinsky, and Zappa !!
Love your videos, straightforward explanation of complicated things. Grazie!!
thank you mate. reminds me of the fight between Rameau and Rousseau back in the day :)
Hallelujah, I've struggled with this definition ALTERED for years... great advice about asking other musicians which note they are playing DIMINISHED scale to the rescue......
always amazing videos. I watch 1-2 vids and always have enough inspiration to play for the next week :)
Great video & thanks for the easily absorbed explanation 😊
Este vídeo debería tener Mllones de vistas. Muchas gracias por la hermosa información que compartes, Felicitaciones por tu gran canal
Muchas gracias
Fantastic video, more Hendrix would be really cool!
Great explanation! thanks
Glad I watched this. I always thought altered just meant playing the minor and major 3rd in the same chord....
Nice content... Keep up the good job..
best explanation on youtube
Nice one bro thankyou
Absolutely awesome
Enlightning !! Many Thanks
To me an altered Dominant is a Dominant that has ANY alteration.
This subject is very well explained by the Berklee suma cum laude graduate Felix Santos.
He has a brilliant free masterclass on youtube (in spanish).
He starts explaining that on every note you have a very strong harmonic that it is the fifth of the note, and that is one of the reasons you can omit the 5th of a chord.
He says that when you see an Alt symbol on a chord you can actually play any alteration.
because even if there is only one alteration in the symbol you get the resulting alterations too...
Lets say you are playing C7b9 you also get the harmonic on the fifth of it Ab, the b13 or #5
Also if somebody is playing the C7#5 you get the #9 as the fifth of it.
He says an altered dominant is stable, so if you want it to have more tension, you should make it semi altered. like b9 13 or 9 b13.
here his explanation (spanish) ruclips.net/video/mbZEcOa7Uio/видео.html
Thanks Tommaso... Very helpful
I guess that’s why some people refer to the half-whole scale as the diminished dominant!
Very good Tommaso
I didn't actually know that musicians refer to it as 'some notes changed chromatically'. I never had that conflict with other musicians either. Guess I was living under a rock. It's just the way I learned altered chords and how to improv over them.
So say you sharpen the fifth, is that an augmented, or altered?
Also, I'm loving the comment section, especially today. So many great questions and info being shared there as well as in the video. Your channel attracts some great viewers and I think that says a lot about what you do here.
"Augmented" is another one of these labels that is pretty vague. For some "augmented" is anything with a #5, and for others it's anything with a #5 that is not a dominant (in which case you call it altered). Truly, the more I explain these things, the more nitpicking I have to make with the labels - everyone seems to use them in a different way... ;)
I see a video on what to label "augmented" coming up now, lols.
Thank you for the reply. That was easily the fastest reply I've ever received on youtube. Regardless, your channel is the best (and I usually shy away from ever using the word "best").
As long as you keep the 1st; 3rd and 7th notes you can alter any of the other notes
Altered chords comes from a scale built from the important minor chord of a dominant 7th chord a tritone away from the dominant 7th chord you are playing.. this scale is called a melodic minor DIMINISHED scale. So if you have a C7 chord the tritone dominant chord is F#7 and the important minor to that chord is C# minor. Therefore you play a C# melodic minor dimished scale.. Notes are C,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A,A#,C… Notice the A in the scale. It is there to make the Minor 6th diminished scale appropiate….That way you can play the entire scale with only two chords. The Minor 6th and the related dimished chord
It is true that this is used in different ways but, some ways are clearer than others, to me...
A dominant altered chord is a dominant chord that has ANY altered tension and only altered tensions(9th 11th 13th) If it has a combination of altered an unaltered tensions I would call it semi altered.
An augmented chord is not a dominant chord, it has no b7. C#5 or C aug is a triad
If you want it to be an augmented dominant You need to write it C7 aug Or C7#5
To me a C7 #5 is actually a C7 with omitted fifth and b13
notes C E G# Bb7 if you use the enharmonic of G# (Ab) the notes are C E Ab Bb7
So to me C7#5 it is a clear way to express that you should rise the 5th half step, in reality doing that you are actually OMITTING the 5th and playing the b13 instead, but C7 b13 it is a better way to express what is going on with the harmony.
BTW, you're brilliant! I love your channel!
Thank you so much!
I normally differentiate between "altered" (lower case A) and "Altered" (upper case A). "Altered" is something quite specific in its alterations. The other has non-specific alterations.
If the sixth is lowered - "Altered". If the alteration is somewhere else (and the sixth is presumed major) - "altered".
Interesting. It's similar to the distinction I do here. Thanks!
If you're talking about altered dominant then the dominant V7 chord function takes priority. With this in mind, altering the 5th and 9th notes in the harmony will affect melodic note choices (although playing unaltered 5th / 9th notes can create a nice dissonance depending on the register and note durations.
I do not accept the altered scale idea one little bit. The melody sits on top of the harmony. Yes a musician can improvise using alternate dominants under a fixed melody, but I don't know any standard melodic lines which embellish using such dissonant tones.
It's more likely than a musician will use various melodic alterations using chromaticism so not being fixed to just the altered scale e.g. you can play so called normal notes over the harmony, then sidestep to alter any note to create severe dissonance, not just the 5th or 9th
So in summary
1. Alternate dominant infers an alternate harmonic function.
2. Use of the altered scale does not apply, at all.
Excellent lesson. Thanks
bravissimo, cheers from Argentina
Great video
I remember learning of this distinction long ago and not fully getting the relevance, but now I see how some misunderstandings came to be. I really love omitting notes, maybe the third of a major or minor chord so it's 7th takes on a stronger role in defining it, maybe an 11th, but with dominants it's often the 5 I get rid of. This seems like an area for cool modal exploration, that 5 can be implied with just the 1, 3 and 7, it can even be implied alongside a flat 5 taking on the role of a sharp 11 in context, but you can also double down on the altered scale over that same chord. Does anyone happen to have any cool examples?
I've only tried one thing so far, matching it up with the highly contrasting Mixolydian mode from the same root, and it sounds awesome. I'll probably learn more about melodic minor as well, really love that whole tone stretch.
Ooh, you can even play a complete whole tone scale if you lead mixolydian's 2 into all the other whole tones altered provides, it sounds equivalent if you play it as if it's played over mixolydian to altered changes, and very naturally let's you incorporate the whole tone scale, that's always such a cool option to have to me.
that's really interesting thanks :)
@@room2738 Np! I enjoy when my ideas don't get buried in the comments and some people get something out of it :D
I think understanding it as both would be useful, and context would be what we mean by "altered".
C13b9 .. A/C7 is also derived from F Harmonic Major scale mode 5 so in a V I jazz context ( due to an unaltered 5 and 9 ) I hear it as Mixo b9 because it's resolving to one ... think Misty ... if it was in a fusion setting as as a one chord static (non resolving vamp ) it may function more as diminished or some form of altered chord ... but we don't hear the Jimi Hendrix E7#9 as altered or diminished and that's a one chord vamp ... because the #9 is more to my ears a bluesy b3 and it's paired because a b9 (f) rather a E minor blues scale with a F# color note ... so it depends on where the chords going or not ...the E7b9 in the Beatles She s So Heavy is both bluesy and altered ...
I was educated with the first understanding of altered, one or more notes chromatically changed from a dominant chord.
I always understood “the altered scale” not by that name but i understood it as the 7th mode in melodic minor scale.
I agree with the general premise that terminology has to be used with care to avoid confusion. In terms of application, there are some further basic things. Alt chord and scale are quick tabs to apply musical devices. But there has to be a context for them. The altered scale is a mess of concepts, and I think there is a simpler concept. It is a dominant chord from “Phrygian key” if such a thing existed. In other word, in E phrygian, no sharps or flats, the 5 chord is B…but you make it functional by raise third just as in E minor. So the scale you create by doing this creates the bizarre situation that it “seems” the 4th degree disappears, because you wanted Eb which is “out of key”. The miss named #9 preserves D natural. So the more correct way to view the alt scale is from the point of view of the b5, or F lydian dominant. I believe most musicians intuit this version of a scale concept and call it “tritone substitution” where the B alt is actually F lydian dominant. So should be spelled BCDEbFGA. A flattened 4th degree has the aural enharmonic illusion of the Major third, or raised leading tone (D#) in E phrygian. Next the other poly chord…while it is again having a nice Phrygian context as well, it does not need to derive from a synthetic 8 note scale (which has unneeded extra notes but works as a quick device assuming you start on the correct note). Rather, if you have E tonic again (EG#BDC#F), it is a dominant sounding chord in context, but the scale it derives from is mode 5 of A harmonic major (ABC#DEFG#). So in his example above, C7/A maj is actually from F major key, with b6. It is that simple. Of course diminished scales work in many other applications too, and is fun to play, but context usually clears up why things work or not.
Interesting indeed. I always try to de-escalate these discussions because we're all taught oddly.
I was taught any chord that is not a normal 1357 chord is altered. So any minor is altered, a Dominant chord is altered by the time you get to the 7th.
So thanks for this information into the various usages.
P.S. Ironically, in English the E before the D is silent so 'altered' is a 2 syllable word "all turd" not "alt er ed", as you're saying it. Funny, no offense meant (I'm from US where we murder English routinely).
"All turd chord" is right, even if a bit odorous. :)
HAHA good to know, thanks!
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar I love the Italian-Canadian accent, don't get me wrong.
Also, I meant any chord not 'Major' 1357 (like 1 and 4 of a key) was altered. So thanks again for more takes on this.
The combination of voice and accent are quite pleasing to listen to. But I think it also has to do with him having a musicality to the way he speaks. To my ears he speaks very rhythmically and in musical-like phrases.
interesting topic idea! after watching a singing decibel video earlier, i thought to myself, "I think people focus on random things like this too much, where singing is mostly just about having your scale so memorized from multiple instruments, you can recall it off the top of your head. "
i can understand why you'd use Am as an example for beginners.. but personally, in a real life context, i'm always trying to write something more "standard" & "generic" in Am/C..
& even avoiding the harmonic minor "g#" a lot (regardless how much i love it..)
the scale I always use an alt. dominant, trying to beat the sound of the scale into my head to sing - d#m...
i definitely always try to do a fm7b5 - (Bm) - A# - d#m, ii.° - (bvi.) - V. - i. thing.. looking to bands like 'afi - the leaving song, pt. ii.' & 'linkin park - with you' for guidance...
When we try to understand chord progressions in terms of relation by semitones we set ourselves up for a lot of confusion. The problem is that MELODIC relation is not the same as HARMONIC relation. The circle of semitones is organized according to MELODIC relation, notes that differ by a semitone or a seventh are strongly related melodically but not harmonically. The circle of fifths is organized according to HARMONIC relation, notes that differ by a fourth or a fifth are strongly related harmonically but not melodically.
Altered chords are only strongly related to the original chords melodically, but harmonically they are drastically altered from the original chord. If the altered notes were altered by a fourth or a fifth instead of by a semitone or a seventh then they would be strongly related harmonically.
Musicians often confuse MELODIC relation for HARMONIC relation, failing to consider that "altered chords" are not actually SIMILAR chords at all but are highly DISSIMILAR chords
For example the notes of the chord above, listed in their MELODIC circle of semitones order, would be C D E G Bb, but listed in their HARMONIC circle of fifths order would be C G D E Bb(=A#). The altered chords do not change their melodic order, all the altered notes are still in the SAME melodic order C Db D D# E Gb G G# Bb, but the harmonic order is utterly DIFFERENT, C G D E C#(=Db) G# D# Bb thus the altered notes switch the order entirely, the altered chord is largely UNRELATED the original chord as a chord!
Interesting!
Clear and very interesting :)
Do you have any suggestion on resources for non-guitarists?
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I prefere the second explanation for the altered theory. It brings an entire legacy.
I quite like these videos, discussing disagreements about terminology. Very interesting subject! :-) Good work, keep them coming!
I'm curious to why you consider the altered scale to have a b5 and a #5 - I think of them as #4 and #5. Any intel?
With letters then you can’t have a letter used twice. This is because there is only one space on a musical staff for each note. Therefore F# and Gb would be correct, so yes it should be #4 and #5.
F# and G#
@@thearno2885 While I quite agree - we've already used a letter twice, Db and D# (b2 and #2/b9 and #9. So, the system is already "broken". Also, we have no sixth degree... so the main reason I'm asking is that I quite like to hear the b5 as a #4 in most situations. :-)
But it's difficult - I guess the most "correct" way to label each note would be 1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, b7 - but that does not necisarily make it easier, as the different note names looses meaning when related to the sound (b4 especially).
Marius Munthe-Kaas D# can be Eb
I very much enjoyed you’re commentary on these altered chords/scales. There is always some uncertainty in these situations. I would respectfully add that if you are listening to the melody, you will most likely hear the altered tensions in the melody of the song in question. Alternatively, one could hear how the band leader(keyboardist?) plays the turnarounds. If he/she uses a certain altered tension you would be wise to use the same one for the sake of harmony, both musically and emotionally. Just keeping it real.😎
9:55 Thus why not diversify the term "Dominant Altered" into "Dominant Scale Altered" and "Dominant Chromatic Altered", eliminating the existing ambiguity altogether!
Some people call the half-whole scale the diminished dominant...
Just to get the record straight..An altered chord comes from a scale built from the important minor chord of a dominant 7th chord a tritone away from the dominant 7th chord you are playing.. this scale is called a melodic minor DIMINISHED scale. So if you have a C7 chord the tritone dominant chord is F#7 and the important minor to that chord is C# minor (chord built on the 5th degree of F#). Therefore you play a C# melodic minor dimished scale.. Notes are C,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A,A#,C… Notice the A in the scale. It is there to make the Minor 6th diminished scale appropiate….That way you can play the entire scale with only two chords. The Minor 6th and the related dimished chord….
I've been using the +/- notation for these. So C7-5 C7+5 C7-9 C7-10 (or +9) C7+11 C7-13, then you might get a C(ma)j13+5-10+11 which is not something you don't want to see. If there are more than three numbers behind C or Cm(inor), please find the chord over chord notation. Much rather see a G#7/Esus4 over the horrific litany of numbers in the sample. I'm using j for short for major7th on occasion.
Altered dominant chords are a dominant shell (root, 3rd and 7th + any other note but the maj7) that’s all.
The term altered for a jazz played means all the chromatic notes are posible.
For a compositional perspective is using notes on the dominant that are not part of the diatonic choice or scale. So in a sense Vb9,b13 is not an altered chord if the context is minor. because harmonic minor is not an altered scale, is Very much a part of the minor tonal construction options. Even if you are using it as a substitute for a mixolydian dominant in a major tonality, it does not serve you to see it only as altered, rather considering as well it is more a modal exchange with harmonic minor.
Why? Due to integration of the whole view of what you are doing.
Then it comes a better educational perspective that is to distinguished from fully altered or not, in order to organize your head by knowing that the basic chromatic extensions on a dominant come more often as Harmonic minor, melodic minor or symmetric or 8 note dominant scale.
By knowing these any student knows where he is as he composes and chooses combinations of chromatic and diatonic notes in relation to the dominant chord.
So fully altered belongs to “super locrian” melodic minor. And has all flats and sharps available in relation to the root of the dominant.
The “altered scale” does not exist. Is just super locrian mode. And has a #4 or #11, you call it b5 preferably as to comunícate that there is no 9 or that is mostly used alone with the shell.
The only think to know about the symmetrical scale is that it has a maj13, so it’s not fully altered.
The altered definition depends on context not in people how where adoctrinated to think.
And a complete proficient musician understands these differences.
In terms of improvisation you can do wathever you want with any dominant. You can alter or un alter, you can mix and match.
Etc. That’s my humble opinion and observance of what makes an easier and integrated panorama for students and my own process.
Your videos are great, congratulations.
What do the contradictory naming adherents call the opposite constructions?
They don't have a name for that.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Figures. Phlogistonists.
@@williamcampbell7387 Exactly. Very well said!
Scott Henderson sees it as two types of dominant sound . one containing 13 and the other containing b13. first is diminished scale and second altered.
also Bary Burton said in altered sound u can have natural 5th alongside its alterations and calls it the secret note
I love your videos and channel. Why do you not use lower case for minor chords (i iv v, etc...)?
I'm using the old classical notation that just indicates the degree of the chord (the quality of the chord is implicit if you know in what key you are). This way, everything I say can be immediately understood for both major and minor keys.
Aren't the tritone substitutions (in/of dominant chords) also called "altered" chords??
Sometimes they are, depending if they have altered notes and/or then come from the altered scale. They are not 'altered' just because they come from a tritone sub.
Very, very, very long ago I thought that the biggest confusion in music theory was caused by that the European notation calls B H, and Bb B, and that small letters mean automatically minor chords while the capitalized ones mean majors and this is not true in the Anglo-Saxon tradition.
I was ridiculously optimistic then.
I can so relate to this comment, lols.
I used to know what vibrato and tremolo are. Then I realised the other half of the world does not.
Extended first , than possibly altered. Altered is the triad or the degree, the non-chord tone of any extended triad.
Why isn’t the scale: C Db D# Gb G# Bb written: C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb?
Thanks- love the videos!
There is no Fb.
If you see flat then you will be sharp.
\m/ !ô¿ô! \m/
Cb/B#
Because Fb would be enharmonic with E and E is not in the scale.
Can you talk about Barbershop music progression chords?
Hey man I wanted to ask, where do scales that share ethnic names accurately derive from? Does that mean most modes have ethnic origins, we just can't find out where they originated? Like I had to do an extensive search to discover Harmonic Minor is really named the "Nahawand" Iranian mode. Compared to Phrygian Dominant which is usually referred to as the "Hebrew/Jewish/Freygish" Israeli mode very commonly.
Can the E7#9 in Purple Haze be considered an altered dominant? Isn't that song in E to begin with (meaning functionally the highlighted chord is tonic instead of dominant)?
"dominant" can mean either '5th chord of the key' or 'a chord with major 3rd and minor 7th'. It's dominant in the second sense, not in the first.
MusicTheoryForGuitar That thought occurred to me immediately after hitting submit.:) Thanks for the reply! Love the content.
Thanks!
When someone says "altered", I ask "uppercase A or lowercase A." If they look at me funny, I ask about the sixth. That usually clears it up for me.
Does your course teach a person how to play Wes Montgomery style chord solos?
Yes, we do chord melodies, and how to play them in different styles.
Thank you for this! As a musician who has never dove into jazz (i simply dont like it) but is still fascinated by the theory, the altered chord sometimes using a natural 5 has confused the hell outta me.
Sooooo...... just to be safe, wouldnt it make more sense to use the half-whole scale? That covers all cases except with the #5 :D
Half step-whole step and diminished are the same scale :)
And yes, in general HW is used with natural 5 and altered with #5.
And btw, the altered scale is a melodic minor scale 1 half-step above the root of the chord (and that's how jazz musicians usually think of that)
Option 1: C13/b9
Option 2: C7/b9add13
?
Yes, any chord with a major 3rd and b7 containing any additional notes.
I wish it was that simple... and that everybody agree with it. So a chord with the notes G B D F Ab is altered or not?
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar yes, G7b9 eqiv. Fm7b5/G a G7b9 can also for using the diminished scale over it or A minor triads. Classic altered dominant sounds in jazz.
... and you know that half of jazz players will say that this is not an altered dominant because the 5th is not altered? Note, I am not taking either position - just noting a fact.
BTW, no, it's not equivalent to an Fm7b5/G as this last chord contains a Eb (enharmonic D#), NOT a natural D like the chord I spelled. YES this is a possible substitution, but it's not 'equivalent'.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar that's why I say...if it's a dominant 7 and has any additional notes it's an altered dominant. The 5 doesn't really color the harmony strongly enough to make a difference in most cases, though it can depend on the progression. Any additional notes are b or # the 9, 11, 13, basically... Look at the altered scale (half whole diminished / melodic minor mode) for factual confirmation.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar also, the typical voicing on guitar for a 7 flat 9 doesn't include a fifth. It actually sounds really square to add a v.
Hah, diminished scale! I knew it
To avoid confusion when playing with other musicians, write out all parts before you start. Practice these charts until the desired performance is achieved. Then, send all the musicians home with the requirement that they return to the following session with an analysis of the harmonies implied by the composition. Finally, spend the rest of the session arguing over everyone's respective analysis.
For general historical context, see "the 'Tristan' chord."
HAHAHA :) BTW, you mean this Tristan chord? ruclips.net/video/0dHri-5F4pU/видео.html :-)
Yes, that chord! Didn't know you already had a vid on it :-) My jest is correlated with the observation you made in that video, that the Tristan chord is a topic of much musicological debate.
What's the utility of using the "altered scale"? It seems like a jazz/guitar thing. I keep trying to guess what it's for but I end up deleting the sentence.
well it's a chord scale that lays out all the notes you can use within the chord: 1, b9, #9, 3, AVOID 4, b5, b13, b7. you've gotta keep 1,3 and b7 but the rest are extensions open to you. then you can use the altered scale to improvise over it. Symmetric is also super cool for dominant chords.
well it's a chord scale that lays out all the notes you can use within the chord: 1, b9, #9, 3, AVOID 4, b5, b13, b7. you've gotta keep 1,3 and b7 but the rest are extensions open to you. then you can use the altered scale to improvise over it. Symmetric is also super cool for dominant chords.
@@jameslivesey8322 So it is a jazz thing- all potential pitches for that chord or spot in the tune?
Does any classical composer use that chord?
Andy Hanson Scriabin, Chopin
In Jazz the consensus is that the altered chord is always derived from the altered scale. C13b9 is not an altered chord.
I love how both sides use the word "consensus"... There are Jazz players that don't think like you. Not me - I'm fine either way.
This is a very new information for me. Never seen a jazz musician considering a chord with 13 a altered before.
If I see C7alt, I assume that b9, #9, #11 and b13 are all fair game. I I think if you're going to use C13(b9) then you specify that.
An altered chord comes from a scale built from the important minor chord of a dominant 7th chord a tritone away from the dominant 7th chord you are playing.. this scale is called a melodic minor DIMINISHED scale. So if you have a C7 chord the tritone dominant chord is F#7 and the important minor to that chord is C# minor. Therefore you play a C# melodic minor dimished scale.. Notes are C,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A,A#,C… Notice the A in the scale. It is there to make the Minor 6th diminished scale appropiate….That way you can play the entire scale with only two chords. The Minor 6th and the related dimished chord….
It's at the beningging
Thought.... yeah.... nevermind
that´s reminds me a subV7 chords. By the way, the diminished scales does not have major sevenths? (7M) (9) (11) (b13).Another great video, thank you
You're probably thinking of the WH diminished scale, while I refer to the HW diminished scale. Here's another situation where the naming is confusing!
Well- the problem with jazz theory a lot of the time is that it's not carved into stone, there will be disagreements, and nobody can or should be ultimately 'correct'!
Having said that, I'm going to argue vehemently against the first definition- for one thing I've never come across a person or situation who believes an altered dominant can have a natural 5. Out of genuine interest, can you point me to sources that teach this first definition of yours?
Now, Baroque & Classical music onwards regularly use what jazz musicians would call a 7b9 which by your first definition is an altered dominant. When I hear that term, for me there is a subtle cultural implication that we are heading into interesting jazz territory, not solid Mozartian harmony!
This is also partly why for me the 'Hendrix Chord' isn't an altered dominant- the natural 5 is strongly implied, and the chord doesn't hit my ear as a functional dominant which it would be if you added a b or # 5. My ear hears it as a mix between mixolydian & dorian.
What's interesting is that if you take different 'altered dominants' by your first definition- let's say C7b9, C7b9#11 (but with the 5!), C7#9, and so on... they all sound very different with very different flavours.
But if you take different chords that fit your second definition, eg C7b5b9, C7#5b9, C7b5#9, C7#5#9, etc... they all sound remarkably similar & obviously have a similar function and are reasonably interchangeable.
As a further point of interest, I think it's much more simple for people new to the alerted scale to see it as a scale where literally every single note has been alerted by flattening by 1 semitone- except for the root note of course otherwise you just move your major scale down a semitone.
So C major becomes C, Db, Eb, Fb, Gb, Ab, Bb
Now functionally and musically, we can see this as C, Db, D#, E, Gb, G#, Bb- but I think that going straight to this spelling can be very confusing if we don't acknowledge how we ended up with these notes.
It's also useful to realise that C altered scale is also a mode of Db melodic minor scale, in which case we absolutely want to use the first way of spelling the scale.
Very good observations!
Lets call altered dominant chords when its from altered scale.
Otherwise its an Augmented dominant chord. Especially because #5 is usually labeled as an augmented chord.
What about the chord at 6:55?
What i mean is to suggest, that this chord in reference to your firts point, we call it augmented in stead.
In reference to your second point when derived from altered scale, then we call it altered.
Think this is a good idea?
No, I don't think it's a good idea. The chord at 6:55 does not have a #5, and does not come from the altered scale. How should we call it?
Just to be precise, I DO think it's a good idea to call a chord "altered" if it comes from an altered scale. But how do we call a chord that does not come from the altered scale? "Augmented dominant" works only if there is a #5 (or it comes from the augmented scale?)
xkcd.com/927/
So 1. is a C altered dominant (the dominant is altered) 2. is an Altered C dominant (the C is altered) and then confusion would be sorted.
Sorry, day job mindset interfering here. :D
3. Neither of the above.
If the C is altered it's no longer a 'C' chord of any type. If the 3rd and 7th are altered it's no longer dominant. It's the other notes in the chord you can alter.
Thought this was clear from the video.
Andy Mellor it was clear from the video. And? It was also clear from the video that the naming is confusing and “whether you call them something else they sound gorgeous”.
I hope you have a great evening.
I've never seen people who consider "altered" the meaning that some notes changed is chromatically tho...
Meet some in the comments of this video... ;-)
Re the Hendrix bit ..meant to say the #9 is not paired with b9 ... it's paired with a normal 9 (f#)
As far as I can tell, there is no F# being played at the same time as the chord.
Agree with ur comment that f# is not played simultaneously in the Hendrix E7#9 shape ... I meant the F# is more of a soloing note choice for that chord in the Hendrix context rather than F .... it's interesting because it's a Mixo - Dorian hybrid scale (e f# g g# a b c# d ) both are available depending on what scale mode u use on the chord ... And what effect or sound u want to evoke .... as you know :)
Theory/practice gap imo. We haven’t yet codified pop music theory so it’s still a complete bowl of custard. Gonna take years, but videos like this help (though I was irritated by the title)
I'm curious about two things:
1. what do you think is missing in our current understand of pop music theory?
2. why you were irritated by the title?
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar hey thanks
1- many guitarist separate theory & practice. Most great guitarists have very good understanding of the theory but not the language. The practice (what we do) came before the theory (how we talk about it, when learning and working with others). Pop music steals its theory from both western classical music, and jazz, both of which have been put in big long books (eg Levine for jazz theory). Neither jazz or classical theory are completely right for pop.
Not the best examples, but I know a few different chord symbol systems C- Cm7. I saw a whole long argument about if chord VII is diminished triad but half-dim - there were as many opinions as people arguing.
So nothing is ‘missing’ it just needs pulling into coherent useable flexible language and guidelines. Fit for pop - and yes, I know, pop is a huge mix of stuff so 🤷♂️:)
2 - my irritation with your title is just my personal bugbear because the ‘even’ makes it just a little click bait (yes I know I should get over it, sorry). So when I read it my inner voice was grumpily going ‘of course we can damn well agree what they are!!!’ A me problem :).
I call myself a pop musician cos I tend to end up playing three minute songs that have been successful. For fun I’ve been playing bluegrass recently. Whole bunch different terms and on one occasion I was the arsehole arguing from my ‘theory’ background and correcting something on a lead sheet. Thought about it and realised the language they all used was much better. Sheepish apology followed. Point being there’s different language in genres.
Hope that’s interesting, and your teaching of this is great. Much better than mine (14 years teaching it in HE so I have a perspective)
C-Altered? That's clearly C Locrian b4. 😂
HAHAHA
The whole multiple names for things that no one can agree on deal is probably the worst thing about music theory. Like, what chord is F-B-C? Is it F Lydian? Fsus #4? B Locrian?
Also naming isn't consistent at all. Some names make sense, others are awful. I have a special dislike for the "Dominant" chord. I understand it comes from the dominant scale, it has dominant function, and there's probably several other good reasons to call it that. I would be fine if it wasn't for it's cousin the minmaj7, which is just a much better name (imo). It tells me exactly what i need to play, a minor triad with a major 7th. What the heck is Dominant? majmin7 would be more clear.
Oh, you're preaching to the choir here :)
Betchua
OMG. Stop it !!!!!!
You are a music killer!!!!!!
Damnit, 30 seconds on and you already took away my answer: jazz nonsense I can ignore.
Doesn't matter if you have creative genius and talent then guys like him come along and put some bogus name on the music and call it theory,ask this guy how many hit songs he has.Looks like algebra.
Oh, the old "if you have creative genius you don't need music theory". Never heard this one. For people who are after creative genius and originality, you guys all write the same comment ;)
It's completely fine if you don't use music theory. A lot of composers just write whatever they want and then use theory later to help them polish and re-arrange things. But just because you're either too lazy or dumb to study theory doesn't invalidate it's usefulness.