Brother, I'd like to ask you a few questions and hopefully I finally found someone who is willing to answer them sincerely. 1) If everyone is guilty before God and God shows no partiality toward Jews and non-Jews, i.e. he is all-loving, then why did he choose you, but not John or Jane? 2) How do you know you have been chosen by God? 3) How does God's *mercy* go with God's irresistible grace (as you know, grace is not the same as mercy)? 4) How would you define love Thanks a lot and God bless you
I just saw this comment from over a decade ago! Perhaps someone will still see this reply and find it helpful. 1. According to Eph. 1:5-6, God chose the elect to according to the purpose of His will and to the praise of His glorious grace. We should be satisfied with that, recognising God’s glory as the supremely worthy end, and not expecting to understand more than what Scripture gives us. 2. How does one know one is chosen? I’ve written a whole doctrinal study on evidence of salvation. This deserves a long answer, but for now I can only recommend that people read 1 John. The briefest answer I can give now is that the Spirit bears witness of adoption (Romans 8:15-16). 3. There are different kinds of grace, but all involve giving what is undeserved. Saving grace, according to the doctrine of irresistible grace, is the efficacious gift of undeserved salvation. Where grace is giving what is undeserved, mercy is not giving what is deserved. Where salvation is given by grace, there is also mercy, as the saved do not experience the judgment they deserve. Mercy is dispensed according to God’s sovereign choice (Rom. 9:15). 4. I think the Bible tends to show us what love looks like rather than defining it in terms of necessary and sufficient conditions. Maybe a fair definition of love in Scripture would be something like compassionate self-giving towards another? But there are certainly different kinds of love in Scripture, and I haven’t done a serious word study on the various words for love, so take this last answer with a pinch of salt. I’m not sure what the question was really aiming at.
@philochristos Thanks. How did he answer my first question? My third question is essential. Since the doctrine of irresistible grace is merciless. In English, there is a subtle difference between the words grace and mercy. In simple terms, grace is to receive something you do not deserve, whereas mercy is to be pardoned of something you actually do deserve. But the doctrine of grace does not actually teach mercy, does it?
@CBALLEN Thank you for your comment, but you haven't given me an answer to my question. Why wouldn't God in his unconditional and irresistible grace save everyone? If everyone is equally lost in his sins and trespasses, why does God in his grace not save them all?
@CBALLEN Well, for the sake of argument, let's say your right, that through divine election, the holy spirit has to change the heart and force someone to come to faith and repentance. What criteria does God have for deciding between lost person A and lost person B? Why should he choose you, but not John Smith and Jane Doe?
(cont'd) James Arminius recognized this. I quote from Encyclopaedia Britannica: To him predestination seemed too harsh a position, because it did not provide a place for the exercise of human free will in the process of salvation. Hence, Arminius came to assert a conditional election, according to which God elects to eternal life those who will respond in faith to the divine offer of salvation. In so doing, he meant to place greater emphasis on God's MERCY.
@CBALLEN And what is the Biblical justification of that? What is faith? How would you define it? If God's amazing grace is limited to a select few, there is nothing amazing about it. If God's will is good, acceptable and perfect (Rom 12:2), there is no reason to believe that God wills evil or wants anyone to perish. The doctrines of grace and compatibilism distort God's amazing grace and make His perfect will compatible with Evil.
(cont'd) For this is exactly what Calvinism is said to stand for, that all glory be to God, and yet by embracing the doctrine of grace by random election, some pride themselves on their election, being one of the glorious elect, and by doing so they forget the doctrine of mercy, that their sins were not forgiven by election, but by Gods mercy on the cross. "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." (2 Cor 10:17 NIV). Boast in the sacrifice and resurrection of the Lord.
@CBALLEN Well, all I have to say about John 6:39 and 6:44is that if we were to read it exclusively as Calvinists do, we would have to conclude that nobody goes to hell, for God will draw all people through the death of Jesus Christ: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." (Jh 12:32). If God draws all people and will not loose any of them, then nobody will perish. But Jh 17:12 says: " not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction"
@CBALLEN There is a major distinction between LETTING people be born and MAKING people to be born. God ALLOWS evil, sin and suffering, but he does not ORDAIN it. Foreknowledge is not fore-ordainment. This is an important principle. God may foreknow who would choose to love him and elect those for salvation without any fore-ordainment of their choice.
@CBALLEN Tim, my brother, I just recently finished a book about the JRP folks over at Knox Seminary. It was written from the perspective of a student who was actually attending the seminary back when everything first hit the fan, back when Sproul and Reymond resigned in protest. "Imagining a Vain Thing" by Steve Matthews. U can get it from the Trinity Foundation's website if ur interested. A little more heavy with the Westminster Confession than I prefer, but it's still a great read.
@CBALLEN (cont) taking both of these verses into consideration we see that unsaved people and atheists can't believe on the Lord unless He causes it by converting or justifying us by imparting His Spirit to us first.He is granting us salvation or Grace through faith,that He also grants us.This is why we are saved by Grace thru Faith.Phil 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,Proving God alone saves us 100%.
But if God is almighty to save all people, why wouldn't He? Unless God has the overwriting desire that all people should FREELY choose to love, know and enjoy him.
Mr. Koukl, you misquoted Romans 3 twice. The verse does NOT say, "For all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God." It says, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." That "fall" is present tense. Because we have sinned, we now and always will fall short of God's glory (part of total depravity). His works therefore, are the only works pleasing to Him (justification, salvation, sanctification by His grace).
But Scripture says that God "has put eternity into man’s heart" (Eccl. 3:11), i.e. man longs for eternal life, man longs for a relationship with God. It's why people are continually looking for spiritual life, the fulfillment of the emptiness they feel inside, for they are naturally spiritually dead: separated from God.
(cont'd) There is no place for mercy in the unconditional election. Yet mercy, divine mercy, is what God demonstrated at the cross. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Cor 5:21; NIV). That is mercy. God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Rom 5:8, NKJV). That is mercy.
"the proper meaning" Only "proper" from a Calvinistic pre-understanding of the text. If the verse speaks for itself, there is no mentioning of the elect. In light of the similar verse 1 Tim 2:4, which states "God our Savior, who desires ALL PEOPLE to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth", limiting this desire to all [OF THE ELECT] is adding words to the text. Nowhere in the Bible is "all" restricted to "all of the elect".
So on your view, God doesn't simply LET many go where they want, no, he MAKES some choose for hell and some for Him by the way he created and predestined them. Now that's the issue here: God predestines some unwilling sinners for eternal glory and some unwilling sinners for eternal torment. He is a loving father to some, but a merciless judge to others. Do you finally see that this what is called the doctrine of grace is not so gracious after all?
(con) God strongly opposes the glorification of fatalism and determinism: "But you who forsake the LORD, who forget my holy mountain, who set a table for Fortune and fill cups of mixed wine for Destiny, I will destine you to the sword, and all of you shall bow down to the slaughter, because, when I called, you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not listen, but you did what was evil in my eyes and chose what I did not delight in." Isaiah 65:11-12
@rofyle The kosmos in John 3:16 refers to all of mankind as do so many verses: "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men." (Rom 5:18) The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent ( Acts 17:30) For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people (Tius 2:11)
(con) Ephesians 1 is about the blessings of those who are in Christ, "who has blessed us IN CHRIST" and "even as he chose us IN HIM". The blessings and election are entirely dependent upon the identity in Christ through faith in Him, not due to the random election of individuals. Hence they are conditional: if you are not in Christ, you shall not share in his glory. "I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they TOO may obtain the salvation that is IN CHRIST JESUS." (2 Tim 2:10)
@rofyle But John 6:39 is not unconditional, but conditional: "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Only those who will freely believe in Him will have eternal life. Faith is an act of free choice, not some religious experience.
@rofyle Omnipotence is not the ability to do a counterfactual: God cannot force anyone to love him, for love by definition is a selfless choice. Foreknowledge does not equal fore-ordainment. In his foreknowledge, God can know who will freely choose for him, but, in his foreknowledge, he does not necessarily determine their choice.
@Bucklehairy Yes, God does prevent people from being saved! "Who can command and have it done, if the Lord has not ordained it? Is not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?" - Lamentations 3:37-38 "Just as it is written, 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.'" - Romans 11:8 "And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false." - 2 Thessalonians 2:11
@CBALLEN Hell was originally never made for human-beings, but for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41). It is the place of absolute separation from God where people will go who forsake God. " If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever (1 Chron 28:9)" By definition, to be saved is to be free from condemnation. So nobody who will go to hell is saved.
@Bucklehairy Read the text again. "For God so loved the world . . . that whosever believeS . . ." Notice! Believes is present tense, not future tense. The text doesn't say whosoever will believe. It says whosoever is believing. This says nothing about how they were brought to faith. However, John 1:1 through 3:15 does. Ur wrong. Not by will of the flesh, nor by man's will, but by God's (John 1:13) Told you before, let the text interpret the text. Stop adding to it.
@Bucklehairy The context of Jn 12:32 is that Gentiles are coming to Jesus. When he says he will draw all people, he means not just the Jews, but Gentiles, too. He will draw people from every people group. Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation." Interpret 6:44 in its own context. Don't put it into 12:32's.
(con) If 5 point Calvinism is true, then those who reject the Lord and will be eternally separated from Him, have an excuse: that God didn't select THEM out of all the sinners. But the Word of God says that "they are without excuse" (Rom 1:20)! For there is nobody who deserves heaven, by our nature in Adam we are all sinners alike (Rom 3:23).
@CBALLEN You don't know the answer or are you unwilling to admit that God's election would be completely arbitrary? So even you don't know whether you're saved or not, for what if it turns out that God did not choose you after all.
@CBALLEN Christ laid down his life on his own accord! Nobody could take his life or put him to death. "I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again." (John 10:17-18) God's prophesies are the direct result of his foreknowledge, but foreknowledge is not necessarily fore-ordainment. No Evil was ever fore-ordained by God, who is the Good.
@Buruc How can God make people freely choose something? Who said anything like that? I didn't. CB didn't. U came up with that urself. CB and I have both been saying God is the first cause of all things. Freely choose? There's no freely at all!!! Here's a question for you, Buruc. Can Satan freely choose to do a good and godly thing?
"This verse makes it also clear that the reason people aren't saved is because the Father never draws them." Brother, who are you to say that? God doesn't prevent people from being saved, that's Satan's work. How do you know the Father has drawn you and chosen you and why should he give this privilege to you but not to others? Paul says: "Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they TOO may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory." (2 Tim 2:10)
@philochristos For, yes, God in his sovereignty supposedly chooses to bestow the gift of faith and hence salvation to whom he pleases, but he also eternally punishes those whom he pleases by not electing them. This may be grace for the unmerited sinners who are chosen, but is this an act of righteousness and mercy? No, because there is no demand of justice in this election procedure at all. It is sheer random election, for all are guilty and God shows no favoritism.
@Hoogz20 Romans 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh(an unsaved person) is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. This is just one verse,there are many other,but it's saying that an unsaved person can't obey God and believe in Christ when commanded. Same thing here1 Cor.2:14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.(cont.)
@CBALLEN But the Bible clearly teaches that the spiritual rebirth is not the condition of belief, but faith is the condition of spiritual rebirth: "In him you also, WHEN YOU (...) BELIEVED in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit" (Eph 1:13). "Everyone, WHO BELIEVES that Jesus is the Christ, has been born of God" (1 John 5:1)
@rofyle (I thought you'd leave me to my supposed destruction?) Well, that's not what I meant. All-knowing, for instance, is just a synonym (or calque) of omniscient, which is part of the traditional definition of God. Yes, God is righteous, holy and awesome, but God is also kind, loving and faithful in everything He does. All these wonderful qualities meet at the sacrifice of Christ. His judgement upon the sins of the world (1 John 2:2) and his unconditional love for the world (John 3:16).
@rofyle No mention of goats there in Matt 7:21-22. Jews have performed exorcism and have prophesied in the name of Yahweh, even before the coming of Christ. Can they boast in that? No, "only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" will enter the kingdom of heaven. And if we'd isolate that verse, we might as well believe in salvation through works, which is not something I preach. We must interpret the Bible in its context.
@rofyle That's absurd! If I choose to accept a gift, have I given myself that gift? Have I wrought it? Have I bought it? No, God is the Saviour, who bestow salvation, I am merely the receiver. But God will not force anyone to come to him. God is LOVE, and to love is to be vulnerable. Love is unselfishly choosing another's highest good. Love is an act of free choice. Nobody can force anyone to love someone, not even God. On Calvinism, all who loves God is God himself through the coercion ofpeopl
In scripture the term elect is never referring to an individual's salvation but is referring to nations. God chose one nation over the others to use to accomplish his will on earth. Not all of the Jews were or are saved abd not all of the gentiles were lost.
***** That's a good verse. It states that God chose them because they were believers(saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and belief in the truth), not because they were elected. I suppose if you want to base an entire doctrine of election on one verse this would be one to pick as long as you ignore the rest of the bible. In this chapter he is talking about the second coming of the Lord. Those chosen are based on the fact that they are in Christ, not that they were picked outside of that. God determined before the foundation of the world that his Son is the Chosen One and those IN him would be saved (Eph 1:4). The way we get "in" him is by belief. Reading the vs prior to your verse says this - 2 Ths 2:8-10 "The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, BECAUSE THEY REFUSED TO LOVE THE TRUTH AND SO BE SAVED." They are already perishing not because they are completely dead to the truth but because they refuse it so God allows them to be deceived. You can't be accused of refusing something if you can't hear it and understand it. When the bible talks about election is not talking about salvation but is talking about being chosen for a purpose. Judas was chosen by God for a purpose and he was certainly not saved. Not all the Jews were or are saved. Not all gentiles are lost.
***** There is no way I can address each of the verses you are referencing in this format. I will take one at a time but in the meantime, can you please address 2 Ths 2:8-10 that says - "The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, BECAUSE THEY REFUSED TO LOVE THE TRUTH AND SO BE SAVED." Please explain how one can refuse truth if they have no free will to do so without impeding the laws of logic?
***** I do not agree with the so called free will that Calvinism teaches because it makes no sense. It is logically impossible to make someone do something freely (irresistable grace) nor is it loving to punish someone for sin if they have no option to choose otherwise.
***** I'm aware of what Calvinists teach but I prefer to go with that the whole bible teaches rather then use tunnel vision. The bible does not teach that we are so spiritually dead that we have no ability to make a choice. That idea is contrived by taking scripture literally that shouldn't be taken literally. There are examples in scripture where people that are referred to as being dead in the metaphorical sense and that is what it is doing when it says we are spiritually dead. We are not so dead that we can't hear the truth and make the decision to believe or reject the it(see Rom 1:18-20). The bible says over and over again that the condition for salvation is faith. Faith is not a work and it's not a gift. Faith is believing. Everyone has the ability (aka freedom) to choose what they want to believe. Believing is not a work. The object of our faith is what has the power and we don't diminish that just because we believe something. What we believe has the power in our lives it's not the other way around. God doesn't pick out some to save and throw out the rest to eternal destruction. When the bible talks about election and the chosen it's never talking about salvation. It's talking about purpose. Jesus is the one chosen before the foundations of the world and those that are in him are chosen because he is, not because they are chosen outside of him first. Salvation is a free gift of God we agree. I don't agree that God forces grace on a few elect people because as I pointed out before, that contradicts logic and God doesn't do that. Scripture says that everyone is aware that God exists. The ones that God hates are the ones that suppress the truth and you can't suppress something you don't know - Rom 1: 18-20 - The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
In fact by making this sweeping generalization you are easily proven wrong as Luke uses it in Acts to clearly mean individuals. Paul in Romans uses individuals as examples though both Calvinist and Armenians claim these passages as their own. We can certainly argue Ephesians 1 is corporate. If you focus on inconsistency of God calling everyone but not giving grace to most (making God into a con man playing a shell game without a ball to be found), you will be more effective.
@Bucklehairy Who is world referring to? Because if it's referring to everyone without distinction, then it would mean Jesus died to save the seed of the serpent. Did He? Look at Colossians 1:20 "and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." Do all things in heaven and on earth include porno magazines and Satan? Does it include heroine and crack? It says "all things", doesn't it?
@rofyle No, the love of God for the world is connected with the gift of his only Son. Moreover, in Greek, it's a substantive present participle, lit. "every believing one unto him", followed by two subjunctives governed by the conjunction "so that", one aorist "should not perish" and one present "have eternal life". The subjunctive can have a future sense, esp in this case where it is the purpose of God's giving his only Son for the world. "WERE brought to faith"? Ur confusing tenses....
@CBALLEN "Even as an Arminian" Do not label me as someone I am not. I'm a follower of Jesus Christ, not of Jean Calvin or Jakob Harmenszoon or anyone else. "hat God knew before time,both those who would be saved and lost." Foreknowledge doesn't equal fore-ordainment. God knows who will choose for him freely. "God is not being patient waiting for goats to come to salvation" But that's an oxymoron, for goats ARE those who reject salvation.
@rofyle Thanks for your comment. "Is it your contention that Jesus atoned for the sins of people who still go to Hell?" This is not my idea, it is the Word of God which teaches that Christ's death is the atonement of all the sins of the world. "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)
We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. What the Arminian emphasizes is that God’s calling here by which he calls people to salvation is not an insincere call. This is a genuine call to which people can respond. God really wants them to respond and be saved. So, for example, look at 2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” On Calvinism they are not free to respond to God's call and the call is "ineffectual."
@CBALLEN I am not an Arminian. I'm a Christian. Christ is my God. But man is not just natural, man is spiritual. We have been created in the image of God. Knowledge of God refers to the intimate relationship with God, which is the purpose of life. We were made to have a personal and loving relationship with God. Anyone may come to know of God's existence, that's not the point, it's the relationship that God wants, which he made possible for all men through Jesus Christ.
@CBALLEN It's an old superstitious method of reading the Bible the Catholics used to practice way back in the middle ages. Some of the Federal Vision guys are trying to bring it back. They're having some major success in the seminaries. Robert Reymond and R C Sproul were both driven out of Knox for refusing to side with the newly hired JRP (John-Revelation) professor, who it turns out, had earned one of his degrees from a Catholic seminary. FV guys are going bonkers over JR theories.
@rofyle The whole world is obviously referring to the whole of mankind without distinction, for we are ALL sinners (Rom 3:23). (There is no salvation for fallen angels, for salvation is by faith and they don't live by faith, but by sight. They've rejected God while he was right in front of them. As you know, hell was originally "prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41)
@CBALLEN Of course, God knows the beginning from the end and we do not. But this doesn't mean that there is anything mysterious about divine fate, unconditional election and irresistible grace. It's a plain horrid Christian variant of fatalism, the same we find in cults such as Islam, in pagan religions and materialistic determinism.
@calvinismisacult I personally invite you to come to my forums and engage me in an honest discussion of the issues. Whatever issue you want. You can choose the topic. The link is in my profile. But will he accept, ladies and gentlemen? Probably not ... I think I've sent him this invitation before.
@CBALLEN I agree. So, indeed, unconditional election is false and should not be taught. God elects those who respond to his grace and mercy by faith in the risen Christ. Nobody can boast in God's election or blame God for not electing them. They can only boast in Christ or blame themselves.
Then it is of a different matter why God would allow evil. God in his grace created mankind in his image as volitional beings. If God would not allow us to make our own decisions, but pour out his wrath every time a person does evil, nobody would remain to be saved. Therefore God is patient toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. So Christians who believe in man's volition, will give the answer: God allows evil, so that many would love him freely.
@Bucklehairy You don't understand what justification means. Justification is a legal term. It is an act God performs, whereby He imputes Christ's righteousness to the elect. Think of it like accounting. God moves the elect over to Christ's column, so that His perfect righteousness is accounted to them. The elect are NOT born justified. They are born like everyone else, imputed with Adam's guilt. But at a set time, a time which the Father has ordained, He justifies them. Remember Abraham
@CBALLEN No offense, but you're starting to sound exactly like a Muslim. All men are by nature sinful and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). Let me rephrase the question to fit your framework: Why did God create some sinners for eternal glory and some sinners to feed the fire of hell?
@Bucklehairy The justified elect do not claim they are saved by election. The justified elect know they are saved by God's work of justification, made possible by Christ's work on the cross. And they know also God only justifies the elect, and Christ died only for the elect. "The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." - Proverbs 16:4 "For they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this they were appointed." - 1 Peter 2:8
@Hoogz20 Think about this.God knows all things and even believing how you believe,He still knew both the finite numbers of who would be(the sheep)& not be saved(the goats) before creation.So if the Lord was being patient waiting on the goats to be saved,it would mean that God has lost His mind since He had perfect knowledge of everyone who would & wouldn't be saved before time,see what I mean? So 2 Peter 3:9 is speaking of God's future elect being born and converted before Jesus came back.
@rofyle ... sanctification by His grace *through Jesus Christ*, not through divine election. Nobody is saved by mere divine election, we are justified and saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If it all came down to God's grace and random election, why would Jesus, God to be praised forever, go to such lengths as to lower himself to take on flesh and blood, suffer and die a sinner's death?!
@CBALLEN Here you and I seem to agree. God allows people to be born in sin who would not choose for him and thus go to hell, the fulfillment of their desire. But this is not Calvinism. Calvinism says that God MAKES people to be born in sin and SENDS them to hell. I'm glad to hear that this is something you reject.The implication is that, in logical order, their eternal destination depends on their own choice, not God's, in chronological order, God foreknew their choice, but didn't determine it.
(con) 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 Tim 2:4 don't include any "US". 1 Tim 2:4 says ALL PEOPLE. God wants all people to be saved by freely accepting his gift of salvation through faith in Christ (Eph 2:8). "they can boast." But the Word of God says they can boast: they can boast in the Lord Jesus Christ: ""Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." (2 Cor 10:17) "But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Gal 6:14)
@CBALLEN "God lets many go where they want" Hold on, who according to you put that desire in their hearts? Calvin and rofyle would say: God put it there, for He is the cause of all things. If their willingness to go to hell is not predetermined by God, then their choice for hell is a free choice, i.e. they could have chosen God instead. But this is not true on your view, so you're contradicting yourself.
@rofyle "Ur not saved!" Fortunately, that's not for you to decide. Justification means to be free from guilt/blame. You are justified by your faith and community in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Faith precedes justification. The justification is conditional: if you don't believe in Christ, you will not be justified in Christ, "so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ" (Gal 2:16)
"You're saying God cannot save unless the person first saves himself. Why do you even need God then?" You're putting words into my mouth. I've never said that we can save ourselves. God came down to us, so that we may come to him. It is God who saves us through Jesus Christ, not through election. It is our free choice of faith in Christ's death and resurrection (Rom 10:10), our call upon the Lord (Rom 10:13) by which we freely accept God's salvation.
@CBALLEN God has revealed himself in nature, so that man is without excuse (Romans 1). Every human being has every reason to believe in God by the physical world that is around him and you are now saying that God is preventing them to believe, just for the sake of his self-indulgence? Tell me, what is faith? Is that like receiving a gunshot or is it simply accepting the truth? How do you know YOU are saved? Have you received the gunshot or are you a deluded goat?
@CBALLEN I only said what you were implying. In the Bible, predestination and election are never connected with eternal damnation. God doesn't send people to hell. I'm sorry, but, as many Calvinists admit, Calvin was wrong in this respect. Indeed, Christ, the Saviour, came first of all for God's elect people, the Jews, the people of Israel. We, as Gentiles, are not children of Abraham through the flesh, circumcision or election, we are children of Abraham by faith alone.
@Bucklehairy Is it your contention that Jesus atoned for the sins of people who still go to Hell? What did Jesus even die for then? Isn't that unfair to Jesus, dying for people, but they still go to Hell? Think about what you're saying. You're saying God fails to save. You're saying God cannot save unless the person first saves himself. Why do you even need God then? After all, don't you know you shall be as God. I'm being sarcastic with that last, but it's what you're saying.
@Buruc People are born into sin, correct? People are born sinners, correct? People are born having been imputed with Adam's guilt, having been born guilty of something they did not earn. People are born, having never asked to be born. They are born guilty of a sin they did not commit. Is that not an excuse too? I PM'd hairyknuckles this some time ago. He never addressed the question. He was at least smart enough to never bring up Rom 1:18 again. U have no argument, Buruc.
@CBALLEN You know of the JRP folks, the people who teach that the Gospel of John and the book of the Revelation are the same book, both metaphorical, but meant to be read and understood chastically so that, as they say, "the whore of Babylon is the bride of Christ." They have close ties with the Federal Vision people. Anyway, they succeeded in infiltrating and then finally destroying Knox Seminary. Sproul called it something like one of the worst betrayals within the church he's ever seen.
@Bucklehairy Really? The goats are those who reject salvation, are they? Methinks u need to read the text again. "But Lord, did we not . . . in Your name?" Notice, JESUS NEVER CALLS THEM A LIAR. THEY REALLY DID DO MANY THINGS IN HIS NAME! BUT STILL HE CONDEMNS THEM "DEPART FROM ME, I NEVER KNEW YOU."
I'm merely preaching the gospel of Christ as we received it in his Word, not as we received it from heretic murdering Calvin. And you can choose to obey or disobey it, I don't mind, but it will be done to you according to YOUR faith (Matthew 9:29).
@StopFear I'm guessing you're talking about Calvinismisacult's comment to WarrentedFaith? If so, he absolutely disagrees with everything a Calvinist says. The dude even drops his idiotic comments on pastor's channels (my own pastor's included -PastorPrice), but then never engages in polite discussion about his views.
@rofyle "in Him" means your new identity, your perfect and everlasting position in Him as a child of God (Gal 3:28). Abraham had faith in God's promise, and by that faith, Abraham was justified. Faith is not some empty process God invested in someone's heart. There is no Biblical evidence for that. All people are called to repent and put their faith in God, "he commands all people everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30)
@Bucklehairy How many times do I have to explain this? Justification. Justification. JUSTIFICATION! How do I know I'm saved? Because I discovered one day while studying Scripture that I believe I had been justified. I had learned what justification actually meant, and I discovered I believed I had been brought to believe I'd been justified. And since I discovered in Scripture the news that God only justifies the elect . . . . Ur not saved! U don't even know what justification means!
@CBALLEN Brother, Jesus is the Saviour of the World, not just the elect (Jh 4:42, 1 Jh 4:14), his suffering and death is the atonement of the sins of all of humanity (1 John 2:2), and by his crucifixion the Lord draws all men to himself: "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." (John 12:32). God loves the world unconditionally (Jh 3:16) and wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), but to those who reject the risen Lord, the Lord will say: "Thy will be done".
@CBALLEN So he does have a reason, but you just don't know it? So God's election is conditional, but we just don't know the condition. That's Calvinistic agnosticism. "I know He saved me because I was not looking for Him" Ah, so you're reversing Scripture, Seek NOT and be found! Are you actually saying that God chose you because you weren't looking for Him? My sole offering to God is the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ and He gladly accepts it (1 Peter 2:5).
(cont.from 2) Gentiles 2,this was unheard of b/c Gentiles were considered DOGS by the Jews Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. & they glorified God, saying, “Then 2 the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads 2 life.”This is why ALL MEN was constantly stressed to the Jewish believers and Y the Gentiles had 2 B made aware of this,b/c this was all NEW .So ALL MEN meant God had elected Gentiles and Jews from every tribe tongue and nation.God Bless hope it helped.
@rofyle "And they know also God only justifies the elect, and Christ died only for the elect." But limited atonement is false, for Christ's death is the propitiation of the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Jesus Christ is called the Saviour of the World ( Jh 4:42). Do you not hear what you keep saying: "the elect". You're boasting in election, being part of the glorious elect, not in the work of Christ. For who are you to be elected, why not someone else? What distinguishes you?
@rofyle No, because the WHOSOEVER refers to having eternal life through faith, NOT to God's love. The obviously absurd limitation of kosmos to the elect is simply the result of a Calvinistic pre-understanding of the text.
@Bucklehairy The word "world" most certainly does not always refer to the whole of mankind without distinction. U need to buy a concordance and a good Greek dictionary. John 3:16, the addition of the word "whosoever" blows ur inconsistent theory all to pieces. And as I pointed out with the use of Colossians 1:20, the word "all" cannot always be taken to mean all without distinction. U must learn to let the immediate context define the word.
@Bucklehairy U do not believe God is almighty. If u did, then you would admit He does not need man's will to save man. U do not believe God loves perfectly. U believe instead He loves only enough to ensure man has the potential to save himself (a contradiction in logic!). U do not believe He is omniscient. If u did, then you would admit that since God knows every decision everyone makes before they make it, they must therefore make it if u are going to say God is omniscient.
@CBALLEN This is absurd. So we should all begin prosecuting Christians, so that we might be elected? God forbid! Paul was saved, because he obeyed God's sovereign calling and put his faith in the risen Christ. And for this there is no distinction among men.
(cont) "who desires ALL PEOPLE to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:1) "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL PEOPLE, especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 2:4) Please, don't distort God's word, God's love and God's saving gospel by keeping it away from other people, for you and I of all people should know that we don't deserve eternal life just as least as anyone else.
@Hoogz20 Actually foreknowledge doesn't mean that God looks down through time 2 learn something,God's foreknowledge is intimate knowledge God has of those He loved b/4 time,or FOREKNEW as His own.To know someone Biblically is to have sex with them,it's intimate knowledge of them from God's perspective,so all He foreknew,He foreloved.God does not see the future,the Bible says He planned the future and He calls it into being and it is.Just like Jesus being the lamb slain b/4 the world was,b/4 sin.
@Bucklehairy Because in ur interpretation, God is not almighty to save people. In ur interpretation, Jesus goes through all the trouble of suffering and dying for something that isn't even certain - human salvation. Instead, in ur scenario, He desires that people have the ability to save themselves. The real question then bcomes: why did Jesus even have to die, and what do people even need God for? After all, they have their works, I say, they have their works of belief to keep them warm.
@Bucklehairy Again, who said anything about salvation being found in election? God does not save through election. Scripture teaches God saves through justification. HE ONLY JUSTIFIES THE ELECT! Isaiah 53:11 " After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities." How can Christ be satisfied if the salvation He brings depends on your choice?
@Bucklehairy No, I am not putting words in your mouth. I am bringing your inconsistent argument to its logical conclusion. Ur argument: It is our free choice to have faith in Christ's death and resurrection In other words, unless you choose to have faith in Christ's death and resurrection, then you cannot accept salvation. Thus, u must save yourself before you can be saved.
Moreover, Christ became SIN, the quality of sin: "Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us" (2 Cor 15:21). But who says that onlythe cross is what saves us? It is by Christ's death and RESURRECTION that we are saved. Those who choose to go to hell have no part in his resurrection: they will die in their sins, or as Paul put its it: "but if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins.Then indeed also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished."(2 Cor 15:17-18)
@rofyle Oh I know everything about Calvinism / Reformed / TULIP Theology I need to know. I know about the history of the doctrines of "grace" from Augustine, Martin Luther, Thomas Aquinas to John Calvin. They were all wrong about many things, incl. what we call "Calvinism" today. If you valued Christian tradition, you should know that the earliest Church fathers strongly opposed Calvinism and emphasized human responsibility and free will.
(cont'd) Should anyone who repents, appeal to his election by God? No, of course not, if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (1 Joh 2:1a ESV) Christ is our advocate, to him alone we can appeal to receive Gods mercy, Gods forgiveness of sins, Gods redemption. Do not use Gods sovereign grace by election as an excuse for your sins, for by doing so you neglect that God has shown you mercy by pouring out his wrath on Jesus Christ nailed to the cross.
@rofyle I'm just saying watch out: don't make Predestination or Divine Election your new god, see Isaiah 65. No, philosophically, libertarianism or libertarian freedom is what we'd call "Free Will", and I know what I am talking about. Compatibilism is just incompatible with the truth. Determinism is self-referentially incoherent.
@Bucklehairy lol. U are so inconsistent. Did God know Satan would sin before He created Satan? He is omniscient, correct? So God knew Satan would sin before He created Satan, and He knew Satan would ultimately drag billions into hell with him, and yet God created Satan anyway. Who does that make responsible for people going to Hell? Of the existence of sin? I'm sending u one last pm concerning ur question about Romans 1:20. I would answer here, but it would take too long.
Thank you so so much Greg!
The question then is how does God, in His sovereignty draw? The answer to that is the cross, with a Savior upon it.
Good video Greg!
Brother, I'd like to ask you a few questions and hopefully I finally found someone who is willing to answer them sincerely. 1) If everyone is guilty before God and God shows no partiality toward Jews and non-Jews, i.e. he is all-loving, then why did he choose you, but not John or Jane? 2) How do you know you have been chosen by God? 3) How does God's *mercy* go with God's irresistible grace (as you know, grace is not the same as mercy)? 4) How would you define love Thanks a lot and God bless you
I just saw this comment from over a decade ago! Perhaps someone will still see this reply and find it helpful. 1. According to Eph. 1:5-6, God chose the elect to according to the purpose of His will and to the praise of His glorious grace. We should be satisfied with that, recognising God’s glory as the supremely worthy end, and not expecting to understand more than what Scripture gives us. 2. How does one know one is chosen? I’ve written a whole doctrinal study on evidence of salvation. This deserves a long answer, but for now I can only recommend that people read 1 John. The briefest answer I can give now is that the Spirit bears witness of adoption (Romans 8:15-16). 3. There are different kinds of grace, but all involve giving what is undeserved. Saving grace, according to the doctrine of irresistible grace, is the efficacious gift of undeserved salvation. Where grace is giving what is undeserved, mercy is not giving what is deserved. Where salvation is given by grace, there is also mercy, as the saved do not experience the judgment they deserve. Mercy is dispensed according to God’s sovereign choice (Rom. 9:15). 4. I think the Bible tends to show us what love looks like rather than defining it in terms of necessary and sufficient conditions. Maybe a fair definition of love in Scripture would be something like compassionate self-giving towards another? But there are certainly different kinds of love in Scripture, and I haven’t done a serious word study on the various words for love, so take this last answer with a pinch of salt. I’m not sure what the question was really aiming at.
@philochristos
Thanks. How did he answer my first question? My third question is essential. Since the doctrine of irresistible grace is merciless. In English, there is a subtle difference between the words grace and mercy. In simple terms, grace is to receive something you do not deserve, whereas mercy is to be pardoned of something you actually do deserve. But the doctrine of grace does not actually teach mercy, does it?
@CBALLEN
Thank you for your comment, but you haven't given me an answer to my question. Why wouldn't God in his unconditional and irresistible grace save everyone? If everyone is equally lost in his sins and trespasses, why does God in his grace not save them all?
@CBALLEN
Well, for the sake of argument, let's say your right, that through divine election, the holy spirit has to change the heart and force someone to come to faith and repentance. What criteria does God have for deciding between lost person A and lost person B? Why should he choose you, but not John Smith and Jane Doe?
(cont'd)
James Arminius recognized this. I quote from Encyclopaedia Britannica:
To him predestination seemed too harsh a position, because it did not provide a place for the exercise of human free will in the process of salvation. Hence, Arminius came to assert a conditional election, according to which God elects to eternal life those who will respond in faith to the divine offer of salvation. In so doing, he meant to place greater emphasis on God's MERCY.
@CBALLEN
And what is the Biblical justification of that?
What is faith? How would you define it?
If God's amazing grace is limited to a select few, there is nothing amazing about it. If God's will is good, acceptable and perfect (Rom 12:2), there is no reason to believe that God wills evil or wants anyone to perish. The doctrines of grace and compatibilism distort God's amazing grace and make His perfect will compatible with Evil.
(cont'd)
For this is exactly what Calvinism is said to stand for, that all glory be to God, and yet by embracing the doctrine of grace by random election, some pride themselves on their election, being one of the glorious elect, and by doing so they forget the doctrine of mercy, that their sins were not forgiven by election, but by Gods mercy on the cross. "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." (2 Cor 10:17 NIV). Boast in the sacrifice and resurrection of the Lord.
Who believes in a doctrine of "random election"? Who said that one's sins are forgiven by election?
@CBALLEN
Well, all I have to say about John 6:39 and 6:44is that if we were to read it exclusively as Calvinists do, we would have to conclude that nobody goes to hell, for God will draw all people through the death of Jesus Christ: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." (Jh 12:32). If God draws all people and will not loose any of them, then nobody will perish. But Jh 17:12 says: " not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction"
@CBALLEN
There is a major distinction between LETTING people be born and MAKING people to be born. God ALLOWS evil, sin and suffering, but he does not ORDAIN it. Foreknowledge is not fore-ordainment. This is an important principle. God may foreknow who would choose to love him and elect those for salvation without any fore-ordainment of their choice.
@CBALLEN Tim, my brother, I just recently finished a book about the JRP folks over at Knox Seminary. It was written from the perspective of a student who was actually attending the seminary back when everything first hit the fan, back when Sproul and Reymond resigned in protest. "Imagining a Vain Thing" by Steve Matthews. U can get it from the Trinity Foundation's website if ur interested. A little more heavy with the Westminster Confession than I prefer, but it's still a great read.
@CBALLEN (cont) taking both of these verses into consideration we see that unsaved people and atheists can't believe on the Lord unless He causes it by converting or justifying us by imparting His Spirit to us first.He is granting us salvation or Grace through faith,that He also grants us.This is why we are saved by Grace thru Faith.Phil 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,Proving God alone saves us 100%.
But if God is almighty to save all people, why wouldn't He? Unless God has the overwriting desire that all people should FREELY choose to love, know and enjoy him.
@rofyle
I am sure he did not intentionally disagree with you and sure that he doesn't disagree with your statment. What are you trying to say?
Mr. Koukl, you misquoted Romans 3 twice. The verse does NOT say, "For all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God." It says, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." That "fall" is present tense. Because we have sinned, we now and always will fall short of God's glory (part of total depravity). His works therefore, are the only works pleasing to Him (justification, salvation, sanctification by His grace).
But Scripture says that God "has put eternity into man’s heart" (Eccl. 3:11), i.e. man longs for eternal life, man longs for a relationship with God. It's why people are continually looking for spiritual life, the fulfillment of the emptiness they feel inside, for they are naturally spiritually dead: separated from God.
(cont'd)
There is no place for mercy in the unconditional election. Yet mercy, divine mercy, is what God demonstrated at the cross. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Cor 5:21; NIV). That is mercy. God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Rom 5:8, NKJV). That is mercy.
"the proper meaning"
Only "proper" from a Calvinistic pre-understanding of the text. If the verse speaks for itself, there is no mentioning of the elect. In light of the similar verse 1 Tim 2:4, which states "God our Savior, who desires ALL PEOPLE to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth", limiting this desire to all [OF THE ELECT] is adding words to the text. Nowhere in the Bible is "all" restricted to "all of the elect".
So on your view, God doesn't simply LET many go where they want, no, he MAKES some choose for hell and some for Him by the way he created and predestined them. Now that's the issue here: God predestines some unwilling sinners for eternal glory and some unwilling sinners for eternal torment. He is a loving father to some, but a merciless judge to others. Do you finally see that this what is called the doctrine of grace is not so gracious after all?
@rofyle
oh, oops, I thought you're talking about Greg Koukl
(con)
God strongly opposes the glorification of fatalism and determinism: "But you who forsake the LORD, who forget my holy mountain,
who set a table for Fortune
and fill cups of mixed wine for Destiny,
I will destine you to the sword,
and all of you shall bow down to the slaughter,
because, when I called, you did not answer;
when I spoke, you did not listen,
but you did what was evil in my eyes
and chose what I did not delight in."
Isaiah 65:11-12
@rofyle
The kosmos in John 3:16 refers to all of mankind as do so many verses:
"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men." (Rom 5:18)
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent ( Acts 17:30)
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people (Tius 2:11)
(con)
Ephesians 1 is about the blessings of those who are in Christ, "who has blessed us IN CHRIST" and "even as he chose us IN HIM". The blessings and election are entirely dependent upon the identity in Christ through faith in Him, not due to the random election of individuals. Hence they are conditional: if you are not in Christ, you shall not share in his glory.
"I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they TOO may obtain the salvation that is IN CHRIST JESUS." (2 Tim 2:10)
@rofyle
But John 6:39 is not unconditional, but conditional: "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Only those who will freely believe in Him will have eternal life. Faith is an act of free choice, not some religious experience.
@rofyle
Omnipotence is not the ability to do a counterfactual: God cannot force anyone to love him, for love by definition is a selfless choice.
Foreknowledge does not equal fore-ordainment. In his foreknowledge, God can know who will freely choose for him, but, in his foreknowledge, he does not necessarily determine their choice.
@Bucklehairy Yes, God does prevent people from being saved!
"Who can command and have it done, if the Lord has not ordained it?
Is not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?"
- Lamentations 3:37-38
"Just as it is written, 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.'" - Romans 11:8
"And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false." - 2 Thessalonians 2:11
@CBALLEN
Hell was originally never made for human-beings, but for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41). It is the place of absolute separation from God where people will go who forsake God. " If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever (1 Chron 28:9)" By definition, to be saved is to be free from condemnation. So nobody who will go to hell is saved.
@StopFear
That's okay.
@Bucklehairy Read the text again.
"For God so loved the world . . . that whosever believeS . . ."
Notice! Believes is present tense, not future tense. The text doesn't say whosoever will believe. It says whosoever is believing. This says nothing about how they were brought to faith. However, John 1:1 through 3:15 does. Ur wrong. Not by will of the flesh, nor by man's will, but by God's (John 1:13) Told you before, let the text interpret the text. Stop adding to it.
@Bucklehairy
The context of Jn 12:32 is that Gentiles are coming to Jesus. When he says he will draw all people, he means not just the Jews, but Gentiles, too. He will draw people from every people group.
Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation."
Interpret 6:44 in its own context. Don't put it into 12:32's.
@CBALLEN lol. I think you meant @bucklehairy.
(con)
If 5 point Calvinism is true, then those who reject the Lord and will be eternally separated from Him, have an excuse: that God didn't select THEM out of all the sinners. But the Word of God says that "they are without excuse" (Rom 1:20)! For there is nobody who deserves heaven, by our nature in Adam we are all sinners alike (Rom 3:23).
(con)
So John 6:39 and 44 do not unambiguously endorse Calvinism at all. They say nothing about whether the believer could freely chooses or not.
@CBALLEN
You don't know the answer or are you unwilling to admit that God's election would be completely arbitrary? So even you don't know whether you're saved or not, for what if it turns out that God did not choose you after all.
@CBALLEN
Christ laid down his life on his own accord! Nobody could take his life or put him to death. "I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again." (John 10:17-18)
God's prophesies are the direct result of his foreknowledge, but foreknowledge is not necessarily fore-ordainment. No Evil was ever fore-ordained by God, who is the Good.
@Buruc How can God make people freely choose something? Who said anything like that? I didn't. CB didn't. U came up with that urself. CB and I have both been saying God is the first cause of all things. Freely choose? There's no freely at all!!!
Here's a question for you, Buruc. Can Satan freely choose to do a good and godly thing?
"This verse makes it also clear that the reason people aren't saved is because the Father never draws them."
Brother, who are you to say that? God doesn't prevent people from being saved, that's Satan's work. How do you know the Father has drawn you and chosen you and why should he give this privilege to you but not to others?
Paul says:
"Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they TOO may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory." (2 Tim 2:10)
@philochristos
For, yes, God in his sovereignty supposedly chooses to bestow the gift of faith and hence salvation to whom he pleases, but he also eternally punishes those whom he pleases by not electing them. This may be grace for the unmerited sinners who are chosen, but is this an act of righteousness and mercy? No, because there is no demand of justice in this election procedure at all. It is sheer random election, for all are guilty and God shows no favoritism.
@Hoogz20 Romans 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh(an unsaved person) is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
This is just one verse,there are many other,but it's saying that an unsaved person can't obey God and believe in Christ when commanded. Same thing here1 Cor.2:14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.(cont.)
@CBALLEN
So they have God to blame and nothing to gain because of God's unwillingness to save them.
@CBALLEN
But the Bible clearly teaches that the spiritual rebirth is not the condition of belief, but faith is the condition of spiritual rebirth: "In him you also, WHEN YOU (...) BELIEVED in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit" (Eph 1:13). "Everyone, WHO BELIEVES that Jesus is the Christ, has been born of God" (1 John 5:1)
@rofyle
(I thought you'd leave me to my supposed destruction?) Well, that's not what I meant. All-knowing, for instance, is just a synonym (or calque) of omniscient, which is part of the traditional definition of God. Yes, God is righteous, holy and awesome, but God is also kind, loving and faithful in everything He does. All these wonderful qualities meet at the sacrifice of Christ. His judgement upon the sins of the world (1 John 2:2) and his unconditional love for the world (John 3:16).
@rofyle
No mention of goats there in Matt 7:21-22. Jews have performed exorcism and have prophesied in the name of Yahweh, even before the coming of Christ. Can they boast in that? No, "only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" will enter the kingdom of heaven. And if we'd isolate that verse, we might as well believe in salvation through works, which is not something I preach. We must interpret the Bible in its context.
@rofyle
That's absurd! If I choose to accept a gift, have I given myself that gift? Have I wrought it? Have I bought it? No, God is the Saviour, who bestow salvation, I am merely the receiver. But God will not force anyone to come to him. God is LOVE, and to love is to be vulnerable. Love is unselfishly choosing another's highest good. Love is an act of free choice. Nobody can force anyone to love someone, not even God. On Calvinism, all who loves God is God himself through the coercion ofpeopl
In scripture the term elect is never referring to an individual's salvation but is referring to nations. God chose one nation over the others to use to accomplish his will on earth. Not all of the Jews were or are saved abd not all of the gentiles were lost.
***** That's a good verse. It states that God chose them because they were believers(saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and belief in the truth), not because they were elected. I suppose if you want to base an entire doctrine of election on one verse this would be one to pick as long as you ignore the rest of the bible.
In this chapter he is talking about the second coming of the Lord. Those chosen are based on the fact that they are in Christ, not that they were picked outside of that. God determined before the foundation of the world that his Son is the Chosen One and those IN him would be saved (Eph 1:4). The way we get "in" him is by belief. Reading the vs prior to your verse says this - 2 Ths 2:8-10 "The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, BECAUSE THEY REFUSED TO LOVE THE TRUTH AND SO BE SAVED." They are already perishing not because they are completely dead to the truth but because they refuse it so God allows them to be deceived. You can't be accused of refusing something if you can't hear it and understand it.
When the bible talks about election is not talking about salvation but is talking about being chosen for a purpose. Judas was chosen by God for a purpose and he was certainly not saved. Not all the Jews were or are saved. Not all gentiles are lost.
***** There is no way I can address each of the verses you are referencing in this format. I will take one at a time but in the meantime, can you please address 2 Ths 2:8-10 that says - "The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, BECAUSE THEY REFUSED TO LOVE THE TRUTH AND SO BE SAVED." Please explain how one can refuse truth if they have no free will to do so without impeding the laws of logic?
***** I do not agree with the so called free will that Calvinism teaches because it makes no sense. It is logically impossible to make someone do something freely (irresistable grace) nor is it loving to punish someone for sin if they have no option to choose otherwise.
***** I'm aware of what Calvinists teach but I prefer to go with that the whole bible teaches rather then use tunnel vision. The bible does not teach that we are so spiritually dead that we have no ability to make a choice. That idea is contrived by taking scripture literally that shouldn't be taken literally. There are examples in scripture where people that are referred to as being dead in the metaphorical sense and that is what it is doing when it says we are spiritually dead. We are not so dead that we can't hear the truth and make the decision to believe or reject the it(see Rom 1:18-20).
The bible says over and over again that the condition for salvation is faith. Faith is not a work and it's not a gift. Faith is believing. Everyone has the ability (aka freedom) to choose what they want to believe. Believing is not a work. The object of our faith is what has the power and we don't diminish that just because we believe something. What we believe has the power in our lives it's not the other way around.
God doesn't pick out some to save and throw out the rest to eternal destruction. When the bible talks about election and the chosen it's never talking about salvation. It's talking about purpose. Jesus is the one chosen before the foundations of the world and those that are in him are chosen because he is, not because they are chosen outside of him first.
Salvation is a free gift of God we agree. I don't agree that God forces grace on a few elect people because as I pointed out before, that contradicts logic and God doesn't do that. Scripture says that everyone is aware that God exists. The ones that God hates are the ones that suppress the truth and you can't suppress something you don't know -
Rom 1: 18-20 - The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
In fact by making this sweeping generalization you are easily proven wrong as Luke uses it in Acts to clearly mean individuals. Paul in Romans uses individuals as examples though both Calvinist and Armenians claim these passages as their own. We can certainly argue Ephesians 1 is corporate. If you focus on inconsistency of God calling everyone but not giving grace to most (making God into a con man playing a shell game without a ball to be found), you will be more effective.
@Bucklehairy Who is world referring to? Because if it's referring to everyone without distinction, then it would mean Jesus died to save the seed of the serpent. Did He?
Look at Colossians 1:20 "and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."
Do all things in heaven and on earth include porno magazines and Satan? Does it include heroine and crack? It says "all things", doesn't it?
@rofyle
No, the love of God for the world is connected with the gift of his only Son. Moreover, in Greek, it's a substantive present participle, lit. "every believing one unto him", followed by two subjunctives governed by the conjunction "so that", one aorist "should not perish" and one present "have eternal life". The subjunctive can have a future sense, esp in this case where it is the purpose of God's giving his only Son for the world.
"WERE brought to faith"? Ur confusing tenses....
Osea, Dios no es Agustiniano.
@CBALLEN
"Even as an Arminian"
Do not label me as someone I am not. I'm a follower of Jesus Christ, not of Jean Calvin or Jakob Harmenszoon or anyone else.
"hat God knew before time,both those who would be saved and lost."
Foreknowledge doesn't equal fore-ordainment. God knows who will choose for him freely.
"God is not being patient waiting for goats to come to salvation"
But that's an oxymoron, for goats ARE those who reject salvation.
@rofyle
Thanks for your comment.
"Is it your contention that Jesus atoned for the sins of people who still go to Hell?"
This is not my idea, it is the Word of God which teaches that Christ's death is the atonement of all the sins of the world. "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)
We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.
What the Arminian emphasizes is that God’s calling here by which he calls people to salvation is not an insincere call. This is a genuine call to which people can respond. God really wants them to respond and be saved. So, for example, look at 2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
On Calvinism they are not free to respond to God's call and the call is "ineffectual."
@CBALLEN
I am not an Arminian. I'm a Christian. Christ is my God. But man is not just natural, man is spiritual. We have been created in the image of God. Knowledge of God refers to the intimate relationship with God, which is the purpose of life. We were made to have a personal and loving relationship with God. Anyone may come to know of God's existence, that's not the point, it's the relationship that God wants, which he made possible for all men through Jesus Christ.
@CBALLEN It's an old superstitious method of reading the Bible the Catholics used to practice way back in the middle ages. Some of the Federal Vision guys are trying to bring it back. They're having some major success in the seminaries. Robert Reymond and R C Sproul were both driven out of Knox for refusing to side with the newly hired JRP (John-Revelation) professor, who it turns out, had earned one of his degrees from a Catholic seminary. FV guys are going bonkers over JR theories.
@rofyle
The whole world is obviously referring to the whole of mankind without distinction, for we are ALL sinners (Rom 3:23). (There is no salvation for fallen angels, for salvation is by faith and they don't live by faith, but by sight. They've rejected God while he was right in front of them. As you know, hell was originally "prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41)
@CBALLEN
Of course, God knows the beginning from the end and we do not. But this doesn't mean that there is anything mysterious about divine fate, unconditional election and irresistible grace. It's a plain horrid Christian variant of fatalism, the same we find in cults such as Islam, in pagan religions and materialistic determinism.
@calvinismisacult I personally invite you to come to my forums and engage me in an honest discussion of the issues. Whatever issue you want. You can choose the topic. The link is in my profile.
But will he accept, ladies and gentlemen? Probably not ... I think I've sent him this invitation before.
@CBALLEN
I agree. So, indeed, unconditional election is false and should not be taught. God elects those who respond to his grace and mercy by faith in the risen Christ. Nobody can boast in God's election or blame God for not electing them. They can only boast in Christ or blame themselves.
Then it is of a different matter why God would allow evil. God in his grace created mankind in his image as volitional beings. If God would not allow us to make our own decisions, but pour out his wrath every time a person does evil, nobody would remain to be saved. Therefore God is patient toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. So Christians who believe in man's volition, will give the answer: God allows evil, so that many would love him freely.
@Bucklehairy You don't understand what justification means. Justification is a legal term. It is an act God performs, whereby He imputes Christ's righteousness to the elect. Think of it like accounting. God moves the elect over to Christ's column, so that His perfect righteousness is accounted to them. The elect are NOT born justified. They are born like everyone else, imputed with Adam's guilt. But at a set time, a time which the Father has ordained, He justifies them. Remember Abraham
@CBALLEN
No offense, but you're starting to sound exactly like a Muslim. All men are by nature sinful and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). Let me rephrase the question to fit your framework: Why did God create some sinners for eternal glory and some sinners to feed the fire of hell?
@Bucklehairy The justified elect do not claim they are saved by election. The justified elect know they are saved by God's work of justification, made possible by Christ's work on the cross. And they know also God only justifies the elect, and Christ died only for the elect.
"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." - Proverbs 16:4
"For they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this they were appointed." - 1 Peter 2:8
@Hoogz20 Think about this.God knows all things and even believing how you believe,He still knew both the finite numbers of who would be(the sheep)& not be saved(the goats) before creation.So if the Lord was being patient waiting on the goats to be saved,it would mean that God has lost His mind since He had perfect knowledge of everyone who would & wouldn't be saved before time,see what I mean? So 2 Peter 3:9 is speaking of God's future elect being born and converted before Jesus came back.
@rofyle
... sanctification by His grace *through Jesus Christ*, not through divine election. Nobody is saved by mere divine election, we are justified and saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If it all came down to God's grace and random election, why would Jesus, God to be praised forever, go to such lengths as to lower himself to take on flesh and blood, suffer and die a sinner's death?!
@CBALLEN
Here you and I seem to agree. God allows people to be born in sin who would not choose for him and thus go to hell, the fulfillment of their desire. But this is not Calvinism. Calvinism says that God MAKES people to be born in sin and SENDS them to hell. I'm glad to hear that this is something you reject.The implication is that, in logical order, their eternal destination depends on their own choice, not God's, in chronological order, God foreknew their choice, but didn't determine it.
(con)
2 Pet 3:9 and 1 Tim 2:4 don't include any "US". 1 Tim 2:4 says ALL PEOPLE. God wants all people to be saved by freely accepting his gift of salvation through faith in Christ (Eph 2:8).
"they can boast."
But the Word of God says they can boast: they can boast in the Lord Jesus Christ: ""Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." (2 Cor 10:17)
"But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Gal 6:14)
@CBALLEN
"God lets many go where they want"
Hold on, who according to you put that desire in their hearts? Calvin and rofyle would say: God put it there, for He is the cause of all things. If their willingness to go to hell is not predetermined by God, then their choice for hell is a free choice, i.e. they could have chosen God instead. But this is not true on your view, so you're contradicting yourself.
@rofyle
"Ur not saved!" Fortunately, that's not for you to decide.
Justification means to be free from guilt/blame. You are justified by your faith and community in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Faith precedes justification. The justification is conditional: if you don't believe in Christ, you will not be justified in Christ, "so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ" (Gal 2:16)
I'd say corporate election is biblical
"You're saying God cannot save unless the person first saves himself. Why do you even need God then?"
You're putting words into my mouth. I've never said that we can save ourselves. God came down to us, so that we may come to him. It is God who saves us through Jesus Christ, not through election. It is our free choice of faith in Christ's death and resurrection (Rom 10:10), our call upon the Lord (Rom 10:13) by which we freely accept God's salvation.
@CBALLEN
God has revealed himself in nature, so that man is without excuse (Romans 1). Every human being has every reason to believe in God by the physical world that is around him and you are now saying that God is preventing them to believe, just for the sake of his self-indulgence?
Tell me, what is faith? Is that like receiving a gunshot or is it simply accepting the truth? How do you know YOU are saved? Have you received the gunshot or are you a deluded goat?
@CBALLEN
I only said what you were implying. In the Bible, predestination and election are never connected with eternal damnation. God doesn't send people to hell. I'm sorry, but, as many Calvinists admit, Calvin was wrong in this respect.
Indeed, Christ, the Saviour, came first of all for God's elect people, the Jews, the people of Israel. We, as Gentiles, are not children of Abraham through the flesh, circumcision or election, we are children of Abraham by faith alone.
@Bucklehairy Is it your contention that Jesus atoned for the sins of people who still go to Hell? What did Jesus even die for then? Isn't that unfair to Jesus, dying for people, but they still go to Hell? Think about what you're saying. You're saying God fails to save. You're saying God cannot save unless the person first saves himself. Why do you even need God then? After all, don't you know you shall be as God. I'm being sarcastic with that last, but it's what you're saying.
@Buruc People are born into sin, correct? People are born sinners, correct? People are born having been imputed with Adam's guilt, having been born guilty of something they did not earn. People are born, having never asked to be born. They are born guilty of a sin they did not commit.
Is that not an excuse too?
I PM'd hairyknuckles this some time ago. He never addressed the question. He was at least smart enough to never bring up Rom 1:18 again. U have no argument, Buruc.
@CBALLEN You know of the JRP folks, the people who teach that the Gospel of John and the book of the Revelation are the same book, both metaphorical, but meant to be read and understood chastically so that, as they say, "the whore of Babylon is the bride of Christ." They have close ties with the Federal Vision people. Anyway, they succeeded in infiltrating and then finally destroying Knox Seminary. Sproul called it something like one of the worst betrayals within the church he's ever seen.
@Bucklehairy Really? The goats are those who reject salvation, are they? Methinks u need to read the text again. "But Lord, did we not . . . in Your name?" Notice, JESUS NEVER CALLS THEM A LIAR. THEY REALLY DID DO MANY THINGS IN HIS NAME! BUT STILL HE CONDEMNS THEM "DEPART FROM ME, I NEVER KNEW YOU."
I'm merely preaching the gospel of Christ as we received it in his Word, not as we received it from heretic murdering Calvin. And you can choose to obey or disobey it, I don't mind, but it will be done to you according to YOUR faith (Matthew 9:29).
@StopFear
I'm guessing you're talking about Calvinismisacult's comment to WarrentedFaith? If so, he absolutely disagrees with everything a Calvinist says. The dude even drops his idiotic comments on pastor's channels (my own pastor's included -PastorPrice), but then never engages in polite discussion about his views.
@rofyle
"in Him" means your new identity, your perfect and everlasting position in Him as a child of God (Gal 3:28). Abraham had faith in God's promise, and by that faith, Abraham was justified. Faith is not some empty process God invested in someone's heart. There is no Biblical evidence for that. All people are called to repent and put their faith in God, "he commands all people everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30)
@Bucklehairy How many times do I have to explain this? Justification. Justification. JUSTIFICATION! How do I know I'm saved? Because I discovered one day while studying Scripture that I believe I had been justified. I had learned what justification actually meant, and I discovered I believed I had been brought to believe I'd been justified. And since I discovered in Scripture the news that God only justifies the elect . . . .
Ur not saved! U don't even know what justification means!
@CBALLEN
Brother, Jesus is the Saviour of the World, not just the elect (Jh 4:42, 1 Jh 4:14), his suffering and death is the atonement of the sins of all of humanity (1 John 2:2), and by his crucifixion the Lord draws all men to himself: "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." (John 12:32). God loves the world unconditionally (Jh 3:16) and wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), but to those who reject the risen Lord, the Lord will say: "Thy will be done".
@CBALLEN
So he does have a reason, but you just don't know it? So God's election is conditional, but we just don't know the condition. That's Calvinistic agnosticism.
"I know He saved me because I was not looking for Him"
Ah, so you're reversing Scripture, Seek NOT and be found! Are you actually saying that God chose you because you weren't looking for Him?
My sole offering to God is the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ and He gladly accepts it (1 Peter 2:5).
(cont.from 2) Gentiles 2,this was unheard of b/c Gentiles were considered DOGS by the Jews Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. & they glorified God, saying, “Then 2 the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads 2 life.”This is why ALL MEN was constantly stressed to the Jewish believers and Y the Gentiles had 2 B made aware of this,b/c this was all NEW .So ALL MEN meant God had elected Gentiles and Jews from every tribe tongue and nation.God Bless hope it helped.
@rofyle
"And they know also God only justifies the elect, and Christ died only for the elect."
But limited atonement is false, for Christ's death is the propitiation of the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Jesus Christ is called the Saviour of the World ( Jh 4:42). Do you not hear what you keep saying: "the elect". You're boasting in election, being part of the glorious elect, not in the work of Christ. For who are you to be elected, why not someone else? What distinguishes you?
@rofyle
No, because the WHOSOEVER refers to having eternal life through faith, NOT to God's love. The obviously absurd limitation of kosmos to the elect is simply the result of a Calvinistic pre-understanding of the text.
@Bucklehairy The word "world" most certainly does not always refer to the whole of mankind without distinction. U need to buy a concordance and a good Greek dictionary. John 3:16, the addition of the word "whosoever" blows ur inconsistent theory all to pieces. And as I pointed out with the use of Colossians 1:20, the word "all" cannot always be taken to mean all without distinction. U must learn to let the immediate context define the word.
@Bucklehairy U do not believe God is almighty. If u did, then you would admit He does not need man's will to save man. U do not believe God loves perfectly. U believe instead He loves only enough to ensure man has the potential to save himself (a contradiction in logic!). U do not believe He is omniscient. If u did, then you would admit that since God knows every decision everyone makes before they make it, they must therefore make it if u are going to say God is omniscient.
@CBALLEN
This is absurd. So we should all begin prosecuting Christians, so that we might be elected? God forbid! Paul was saved, because he obeyed God's sovereign calling and put his faith in the risen Christ. And for this there is no distinction among men.
@WarrantedFaith
Nah, he won't. He's been up to his nonsense for a long time now, as I'm certain you already know.
Nice channel btw, I subbed.
(cont)
"who desires ALL PEOPLE to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:1)
"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL PEOPLE, especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 2:4)
Please, don't distort God's word, God's love and God's saving gospel by keeping it away from other people, for you and I of all people should know that we don't deserve eternal life just as least as anyone else.
@Hoogz20 Actually foreknowledge doesn't mean that God looks down through time 2 learn something,God's foreknowledge is intimate knowledge God has of those He loved b/4 time,or FOREKNEW as His own.To know someone Biblically is to have sex with them,it's intimate knowledge of them from God's perspective,so all He foreknew,He foreloved.God does not see the future,the Bible says He planned the future and He calls it into being and it is.Just like Jesus being the lamb slain b/4 the world was,b/4 sin.
@Bucklehairy Because in ur interpretation, God is not almighty to save people. In ur interpretation, Jesus goes through all the trouble of suffering and dying for something that isn't even certain - human salvation. Instead, in ur scenario, He desires that people have the ability to save themselves. The real question then bcomes: why did Jesus even have to die, and what do people even need God for? After all, they have their works, I say, they have their works of belief to keep them warm.
@Bucklehairy Again, who said anything about salvation being found in election? God does not save through election. Scripture teaches God saves through justification. HE ONLY JUSTIFIES THE ELECT!
Isaiah 53:11 " After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities."
How can Christ be satisfied if the salvation He brings depends on your choice?
@Bucklehairy No, I am not putting words in your mouth. I am bringing your inconsistent argument to its logical conclusion.
Ur argument: It is our free choice to have faith in Christ's death and resurrection
In other words, unless you choose to have faith in Christ's death and resurrection, then you cannot accept salvation. Thus, u must save yourself before you can be saved.
Moreover, Christ became SIN, the quality of sin: "Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us" (2 Cor 15:21).
But who says that onlythe cross is what saves us? It is by Christ's death and RESURRECTION that we are saved. Those who choose to go to hell have no part in his resurrection: they will die in their sins, or as Paul put its it: "but if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins.Then indeed also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished."(2 Cor 15:17-18)
@rofyle
Oh I know everything about Calvinism / Reformed / TULIP Theology I need to know. I know about the history of the doctrines of "grace" from Augustine, Martin Luther, Thomas Aquinas to John Calvin. They were all wrong about many things, incl. what we call "Calvinism" today. If you valued Christian tradition, you should know that the earliest Church fathers strongly opposed Calvinism and emphasized human responsibility and free will.
(cont'd)
Should anyone who repents, appeal to his election by God? No, of course not, if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (1 Joh 2:1a ESV) Christ is our advocate, to him alone we can appeal to receive Gods mercy, Gods forgiveness of sins, Gods redemption. Do not use Gods sovereign grace by election as an excuse for your sins, for by doing so you neglect that God has shown you mercy by pouring out his wrath on Jesus Christ nailed to the cross.
@rofyle
I'm just saying watch out: don't make Predestination or Divine Election your new god, see Isaiah 65. No, philosophically, libertarianism or libertarian freedom is what we'd call "Free Will", and I know what I am talking about. Compatibilism is just incompatible with the truth. Determinism is self-referentially incoherent.
@Bucklehairy lol. U are so inconsistent.
Did God know Satan would sin before He created Satan? He is omniscient, correct?
So God knew Satan would sin before He created Satan, and He knew Satan would ultimately drag billions into hell with him, and yet God created Satan anyway. Who does that make responsible for people going to Hell? Of the existence of sin? I'm sending u one last pm concerning ur question about Romans 1:20. I would answer here, but it would take too long.