What an amazing discusion! I've been fascinated with the Tudors since childhood, and I've never heard such in-depth study of Anne's final year. This really gives fantastic context to what was going on. Also, it's interesting to me how that people were blaming Anne for the country's problems -- not unlike what happened to Marie Antoinette 250 years later.
What a fascinating interview about a most intriguing subject! I will definitely be ordering the book next week and can hardly wait to get it and read it. Thanks so much, Natalie and Owen, for introducing us to the book!
What a fabulous conversation between two of the kindest Anne Boleyn Experts in the Tudor World. Cannot wait to receive this book. Thank you for dispelling so many myths. Best Wishes for MUCH SUCCESS with it. It is so deserved.
Wow can't wait for this book. Natalie so knowledgeable and she has researched everything for her book. I was gripped by this interview and u could imagine Henry n Anne on progress visually by both Owen n Natalie brilliantly conducting the interview in awesome way.
Natalie, interesting aspect of Anne’s emotional state. In 2022, we could make the diagnosis of post partum depression. She had fetal losses and that had to deeply affect her.
Depending on what date of birth you accept for Anne Boleyn, she was in her late twenties or early thirties when she was executed. At a time when women routinely married in their early teens, Anne was entering the "matronly' stage of Tudor society. No longer in the first flush of youth, Anne probably was oversensitive to the threat of other women. It always puzzled me that Henry insisted that the French Ambassador acknowledge Anne if he was planning to get rid of her.
I always find myself coming back to this episode. I love when these two “Talk Tudor’s”and I agree with Owen….. Natalie, your representation on Anne and The Boleyns is remarkable. Loyal listener for over 4 years now and counting! Thank you ❤
Excellent conversation, thank you so much for sharing this podcast. I am so glad your research led you to the idea that was always on my mind: that Henry VIII was far from gullible, but rather the opposite, he manipulated all, Cromwell included. I also agree with your take on the 1536 jousting accident. Some people have been trying to push the idea that it was much more serious than it probably was, that it changed Henry's personality. That is ignoring his behaviour prior to said accident. That is also ignoring the fact that the account of Henry being unconscious for a long time was written by someone based in Italy, not a first hand witness. Can't wait to read your book Natalie 😊🖖
These three women (Anne, Catherine, and Mary) and to some extent Jane, have been pitted against each other for centuries because they lived in a patriarchal society where holding a man accountable wasn't an option.
Oh, this is a lovely preview of your upcoming book. How wonderful to have the interview being conducted by Dr Emmerson! I'm looking forward to The Book Depository sending out my preordered copy.
Will someone please give you a TV show? I discovered your channel in May (I’m certain you can guess why), and have become such a fan. It’s a disservice to Tudor history lovers that you aren’t teaching more people (via a larger, more traditional platform) with your thoughtful work, wonderful connections, and obvious broadcasting talent. Thank you so much for all that you do to educate us.
This was an excellent presentation, and clearly your research was detailed and comprehensive. I would say that Anne did commit one crime, or rather, made one big mistake. That is, she took on Catherine of Aragon. And they both lost. I think she didn’t have a good plan for Caterina, nor did Henry and Caterina decided to stick around, and refused to go quietly into the good night, but fought as hard as she could to the very end. She pulled every political lever she had, and why wouldn’t she? She had been in the country since she was a young girl. and she had been the People’s queen for 25 years and they loved her. Yea, she was a thorn in their side as well as her daughter. Moreover, during the annulment and divorce proceedings, the uneducated public may not have known anything about old testament verses, and how they relate to a crime of committing incest, but they did know about marital relations and infidelity, and when there’s a home-wrecker, that person is never popular. And that was going to be hung on Anne for her life. Anne was not loved by her people, because her people saw her as the reason their true queen was separated from her husband, and sent away.
Yes, I thought the same. No mention of Catherine of Aragon during Natalie's response to the question of what Mistakes Anne made. I thought it was a really good podcast, apart from the painting of Anne Boleyn as an angel that could never do no wrong.
Hi Natalie, I’m new to your podcast. So I just happen upon this today, even though it was produced a couple of years ago. So I hope you’ll see this message. I’m going to order your book. But if I could sit down with you, I have two questions. First, I’ve always wondered why Anne supported the dissolution of the monasteries which seemed to have been such a horrendous and merciless action, not only to the monasteries, beautiful buildings, and churches and art, plus the pious priests and the execution of Thomas Moore , plus the loss of the culture of the time, but also to the population who were Catholic and had been predominantly Catholic hundreds of years before. How in all good conscience could she have stood behind and supported that (consider considering her intellect and education )and did that in a way karmically lead to her downfall? Or was the dissolution of the monasteries falsely blamed on Anne and was really due to the narcissistic ego and toxic personality and psychosis of Henry who wanted to marry Anne at costs? Second, the other question I have was that how come she couldn’t escape to France? She must’ve had some kind of notion that something was amiss and that she needed to leave England. Couldn’t she have left on a premise that she was visiting family or friends in the French court and have been able to exile herself there? I hope I hear from you. I’m looking to buy your book tonight! Thank you so much for this marvelous interview and for the work that you do.
I think even Henry VIII would have not executed his daughter Mary if she had not capitulated. Its one think to send a wife to the block quite another to send your teenage daughter to the block. Also I think Spain would have certainly made total war to depose Henry if he did and certainly would have tried to rescue her. Any thoughts?
If author reads this, do a book about Henry Norris and the other men. I think Henry viii killed all the men who knew he was having problems in bed or that were involved in the jousting accident.. I think Henry Norris argued with Henry viii also. He did not want the King's left overs and to marry Madge Shelton. I think Henry asked Norris about Anne's comment. Norris told him he didn't want the king's leftovers.
It wasn’t Cromwell leading these decisions? I always think of Chapuey’s comment about “never has a man worn his cuckhold horns with greater joy” as proof that Henry knew all of it was bullshit, and showed no insecurity and rage like he did when a wife genuinely cheated on him, like in Howard’s case.
@@SklLLLYI think Henry viii was so furious that he was in narcissist kill mode. A narcissist goes after people who expose them. George Boleyn read that comment at his trial. Then Henry killed Thomas Cromwell because of Anne of Cleeves. Henry was impotent. Anne of Cleeves had friends in high places, plus she took the blame. Catherine Howard wounded Henry's ego. He had ED, and she went after Culpepper.
@wednesdayschild3627 oh wow you brought up a good point about the Cleaves marriage!! She probably played ignorance because she had enough diplomatic knowledge to do so. But Cromwell setting up the marriage opened up the possibility of the word spreading at court.
I guess I take a middle ground with who to blame for Anne’s downfall. I blame both Henry and Cromwell, and to a lesser degree, the Seymour’s. I do believe Henry wanted to be rid of her by Jan 1536, but I am not 💯 sure he wanted her dead at that point. I think Anne’s threat to Cromwell, who I agree was probably never really her ally, was enough to convince him he had to kill or be killed, and Henry went along with it because he saw the advantage of starting over with a clean slate. That doesn’t absolve either of them… it makes them both monsters and I believe they were. But did Henry want her dead at first? I can’t quite bring myself to believe it. He definitely went ahead with it anyway, knowing she wasn’t guilty of any of the crimes she was accused of. How awful is that? As brutal as he was with Wolsey, More and Fisher, not to mention Katherine and Mary, at least he could argue they actually disobeyed him. Why murder Anne over false changes? Her ‘betrayal’ of not providing sons and their marriage bringing chaos and danger isn’t enough to justify it in the court of public opinion, especially since he loved her so strongly before. But we all know of cases of domestic abuse and once loving husbands murdering their wives, so why couldn’t Henry be equally guilty of that? Regarding Anne and George mocking Henry’s poetry and even more dangerously, his virility… I guess it could be possible, but I think if Henry’s sexual prowess or ability was something Anne might have mentioned, it would be because it caused a problem in her getting pregnant, rather that something she would have mocked. After all, her mocking Henry’s skill would suggest that she possibly slept with someone else whom she could compare him with, and I don’t believe she ever slept with anyone but her husband.
You should do something on what was going on in Spain. Our lady of guadalupe 1531. Ignatius of Loyola os the anti Henry. Catherine had royal blood. Henry believes on divine right of queens.
Henry "as the ultimate puppeteer" is so darn true! This podcast is absolutely brilliant, I am loving every minute.
What an amazing discusion! I've been fascinated with the Tudors since childhood, and I've never heard such in-depth study of Anne's final year. This really gives fantastic context to what was going on. Also, it's interesting to me how that people were blaming Anne for the country's problems -- not unlike what happened to Marie Antoinette 250 years later.
What a fascinating interview about a most intriguing subject! I will definitely be ordering the book next week and can hardly wait to get it and read it. Thanks so much, Natalie and Owen, for introducing us to the book!
I thoroughly enjoyed this podcast and will definitely be buying your book. Thank you.
Delighted to hear this!
What a fabulous conversation between two of the kindest Anne Boleyn Experts in the Tudor World. Cannot wait to receive this book. Thank you for dispelling so many myths. Best Wishes for MUCH SUCCESS with it. It is so deserved.
A fascinating conversation between two of our finest experts on Anne Boleyn! 🙌
Wow can't wait for this book. Natalie so knowledgeable and she has researched everything for her book. I was gripped by this interview and u could imagine Henry n Anne on progress visually by both Owen n Natalie brilliantly conducting the interview in awesome way.
Thrilled that you enjoyed our chat!
Natalie, interesting aspect of Anne’s emotional state. In 2022, we could make the diagnosis of post partum depression. She had fetal losses and that had to deeply affect her.
You're absolutely correct, Marie.
Depending on what date of birth you accept for Anne Boleyn, she was in her late twenties or early thirties when she was executed. At a time when women routinely married in their early teens, Anne was entering the "matronly' stage of Tudor society. No longer in the first flush of youth, Anne probably was oversensitive to the threat of other women. It always puzzled me that Henry insisted that the French Ambassador acknowledge Anne if he was planning to get rid of her.
I always find myself coming back to this episode. I love when these two “Talk Tudor’s”and I agree with Owen….. Natalie, your representation on Anne and The Boleyns is remarkable. Loyal listener for over 4 years now and counting! Thank you ❤
Very interesting. I will certainly read your books Natalie.
Brilliant discussion, interview. I cannot wait yo read the book. Its my Christmas to myself. Thank you
Thank you! I do hope you enjoy it.
Excellent conversation, thank you so much for sharing this podcast. I am so glad your research led you to the idea that was always on my mind: that Henry VIII was far from gullible, but rather the opposite, he manipulated all, Cromwell included.
I also agree with your take on the 1536 jousting accident. Some people have been trying to push the idea that it was much more serious than it probably was, that it changed Henry's personality. That is ignoring his behaviour prior to said accident. That is also ignoring the fact that the account of Henry being unconscious for a long time was written by someone based in Italy, not a first hand witness.
Can't wait to read your book Natalie 😊🖖
Have just finished this book - Fabulously researched with a great understanding of the period and the personalities involved.
A truly important work.
These three women (Anne, Catherine, and Mary) and to some extent Jane, have been pitted against each other for centuries because they lived in a patriarchal society where holding a man accountable wasn't an option.
Absolutely brilliant interview thank you for sharing your knowledge x
You're very welcome!
Oh, this is a lovely preview of your upcoming book. How wonderful to have the interview being conducted by Dr Emmerson! I'm looking forward to The Book Depository sending out my preordered copy.
I've always felt so sorry for AB. The pressure that she must have felt must have been immense.
Will someone please give you a TV show? I discovered your channel in May (I’m certain you can guess why), and have become such a fan. It’s a disservice to Tudor history lovers that you aren’t teaching more people (via a larger, more traditional platform) with your thoughtful work, wonderful connections, and obvious broadcasting talent. Thank you so much for all that you do to educate us.
Thank you for your kind words! I'm so glad you're enjoying my channel. :)
Great interview thankyou
Absolutely fabulous video
This was an excellent presentation, and clearly your research was detailed and comprehensive. I would say that Anne did commit one crime, or rather, made one big mistake. That is, she took on Catherine of Aragon. And they both lost. I think she didn’t have a good plan for Caterina, nor did Henry and Caterina decided to stick around, and refused to go quietly into the good night, but fought as hard as she could to the very end. She pulled every political lever she had, and why wouldn’t she? She had been in the country since she was a young girl. and she had been the People’s queen for 25 years and they loved her. Yea, she was a thorn in their side as well as her daughter. Moreover, during the annulment and divorce proceedings, the uneducated public may not have known anything about old testament verses, and how they relate to a crime of committing incest, but they did know about marital relations and infidelity, and when there’s a home-wrecker, that person is never popular. And that was going to be hung on Anne for her life.
Anne was not loved by her people, because her people saw her as the reason their true queen was separated from her husband, and sent away.
Yes, I thought the same. No mention of Catherine of Aragon during Natalie's response to the question of what Mistakes Anne made. I thought it was a really good podcast, apart from the painting of Anne Boleyn as an angel that could never do no wrong.
Oooooo I cant wait to get the book Natalie!
Thank you!
I’m looking forward to getting my book.
What is the name of the tune played at the beginning? I love it!
Hi Natalie, I’m new to your podcast. So I just happen upon this today, even though it was produced a couple of years ago. So I hope you’ll see this message.
I’m going to order your book. But if I could sit down with you, I have two questions.
First, I’ve always wondered why Anne supported the dissolution of the monasteries which seemed to have been such a horrendous and merciless action, not only to the monasteries, beautiful buildings, and churches and art, plus the pious priests and the execution of Thomas Moore , plus the loss of the culture of the time, but also to the population who were Catholic and had been predominantly Catholic hundreds of years before.
How in all good conscience could she have stood behind and supported that (consider considering her intellect and education )and did that in a way karmically lead to her downfall?
Or was the dissolution of the monasteries falsely blamed on Anne and was really due to the narcissistic ego and toxic personality and psychosis of Henry who wanted to marry Anne at costs?
Second, the other question I have was that how come she couldn’t escape to France? She must’ve had some kind of notion that something was amiss and that she needed to leave England.
Couldn’t she have left on a premise that she was visiting family or friends in the French court and have been able to exile herself there?
I hope I hear from you. I’m looking to buy your book tonight! Thank you so much for this marvelous interview and for the work that you do.
I think even Henry VIII would have not executed his daughter Mary if she had not capitulated. Its one think to send a wife to the block quite another to send your teenage daughter to the block. Also I think Spain would have certainly made total war to depose Henry if he did and certainly would have tried to rescue her. Any thoughts?
Henry believes in divine right of kings. Mary also believes in that. By blood, Mary has the royal blood. They do not consider people equal.
Best ever!
How can we buy your book, Natalie?
It's available at bookstores in the UK or via online retailers like Amazon, The Book Depository, Waterstones etc. Thank you for your interest!
Harry didn’t care-he was done with her and had moved on.
If author reads this, do a book about Henry Norris and the other men. I think Henry viii killed all the men who knew he was having problems in bed or that were involved in the jousting accident.. I think Henry Norris argued with Henry viii also. He did not want the King's left overs and to marry Madge Shelton. I think Henry asked Norris about Anne's comment. Norris told him he didn't want the king's leftovers.
It wasn’t Cromwell leading these decisions?
I always think of Chapuey’s comment about “never has a man worn his cuckhold horns with greater joy” as proof that Henry knew all of it was bullshit, and showed no insecurity and rage like he did when a wife genuinely cheated on him, like in Howard’s case.
Eta: not an exact quote ⬆️
@@SklLLLYI think Henry viii was so furious that he was in narcissist kill mode. A narcissist goes after people who expose them. George Boleyn read that comment at his trial. Then Henry killed Thomas Cromwell because of Anne of Cleeves. Henry was impotent. Anne of Cleeves had friends in high places, plus she took the blame. Catherine Howard wounded Henry's ego. He had ED, and she went after Culpepper.
@wednesdayschild3627 oh wow you brought up a good point about the Cleaves marriage!! She probably played ignorance because she had enough diplomatic knowledge to do so. But Cromwell setting up the marriage opened up the possibility of the word spreading at court.
I guess I take a middle ground with who to blame for Anne’s downfall. I blame both Henry and Cromwell, and to a lesser degree, the Seymour’s. I do believe Henry wanted to be rid of her by Jan 1536, but I am not 💯 sure he wanted her dead at that point. I think Anne’s threat to Cromwell, who I agree was probably never really her ally, was enough to convince him he had to kill or be killed, and Henry went along with it because he saw the advantage of starting over with a clean slate. That doesn’t absolve either of them… it makes them both monsters and I believe they were. But did Henry want her dead at first? I can’t quite bring myself to believe it. He definitely went ahead with it anyway, knowing she wasn’t guilty of any of the crimes she was accused of. How awful is that? As brutal as he was with Wolsey, More and Fisher, not to mention Katherine and Mary, at least he could argue they actually disobeyed him. Why murder Anne over false changes? Her ‘betrayal’ of not providing sons and their marriage bringing chaos and danger isn’t enough to justify it in the court of public opinion, especially since he loved her so strongly before. But we all know of cases of domestic abuse and once loving husbands murdering their wives, so why couldn’t Henry be equally guilty of that?
Regarding Anne and George mocking Henry’s poetry and even more dangerously, his virility… I guess it could be possible, but I think if Henry’s sexual prowess or ability was something Anne might have mentioned, it would be because it caused a problem in her getting pregnant, rather that something she would have mocked. After all, her mocking Henry’s skill would suggest that she possibly slept with someone else whom she could compare him with, and I don’t believe she ever slept with anyone but her husband.
Henry VIII was a menace
(Like that guy Dennis)
Here's a guy who,
After killing wife #2,
Spent the day playing tennis...
You should do something on what was going on in Spain. Our lady of guadalupe 1531. Ignatius of Loyola os the anti Henry. Catherine had royal blood. Henry believes on divine right of queens.
Do you believe Anne wanted to marry Henry in the first place?
Love and hate they say are back to back.
Henry was a terrible king.
…and we’re still laughing at Henry. The “Alpha” male who is only known for all the women in his life. 😂
It would be funnier if it wasn’t so deadly. 😢
FWIW, Henry VIII reminds me of Donald Trump.
Absolutely and frightening especially now