I agre with you I think it is ok for the Light unit with extreem stats on the charge. of witch I think that there're representing training, can one shot an infantry in three ranks deep. But a mele cav. with horses and man that are not trained for charging. Not to speek abouth their wapons witch sould be inferior on the charge. Wy would anyone pick shock cav. anymore if a mele Does the same/more damage. While historical lancers where used until WW1
+HeirofCarthage I don't understand why they keep doing this. Instead of making small changes towards something that works, they change things completely. Units are either useless or OP. Germanic Horsemen for example. Nerfed into the ground. Tagmata. Nerfed into the ground, only to have more OP cavalry introduced.
+Maximus Decimus Meridius A big problem is the way company structures make it take weeks to get a patch approved, meaning, developers feel they can't risk introducing any ineffective fixes, and will refuse to tinker with anything that is a serious problem in fearing that they may break it for months.
+HeirofCarthage Armored Himyarite Shotelai: tagmata of the day. So I started a himyar campaign, began with dirt-cheap tribesmen/raider spam and ended up with stacks with 4-6 of AHS raping everyone and their dogs, while having a hookers-and-blow economy (egypt alone makes 25k/turn with those pleasure house chain, -25% corruption applied) bring me 40k per turn, 600k in the coffers. By 415. CA, please? So the most profitable things in attila must be hookers and booze (tanukhid horde industry chain). Roman industry? Sassanid trade? Forget those, we make 3500/turn with no unrest penalty! Oh, and religious buildings that GIVE food along with +7 influence, certainly balanced.
I posted the formula for impact damage in the Erik Wright comment chain, with an explanation of how to properly apply the formula to calculate impact damage. Copypasting it here. The damage formula for impact damage: (Force^1.5)*2+20, half of this is AP. Light camels weigh as much as heavy cavalry, but charge slower. This still results in heavy camels having the most possible charge force. Most horses are going to have an effective impact force of around 60-38 (Heavy-medium,) with camels capping out at 88 without rapid advance, or 132 with rapid advance. You subtract the bracing (Or charging,) force of the enemy from this, but it probably will loose. Himyarite Armored Shotelai can rapid advance as heavy camels, meaning against heavy cavalry, they have a theoretical impact damage of 1240. The reason why they don't instantly kill anything on the charge is because all cavalry, elephants, and chariots are immune to impact damage. This can be changed in an KV rules file, which then makes Himyarite Armored Shotelai capable of killing anything with an impact alone.
Wow... this is highly interesting... :o Btw Maximus, what units do you think are the most effective in siege battles? Like fighting in the alleys of a town/city?
+DontKnow9000 well, in a defensive battle, I would say a unit with expert charge defense would work really well, or getting a number of BGA's as they are a very excellent unit
Thanks for the reply :) I meant more like offensive styled siege battles where i have to attack and not defend. What unit would be best to conquer a city in those pesky "alley fights" which are defended by spears etc :o?
+DontKnow9000 This is one area where pikes can work well. Keep a good melee unit behind them, ideally a high charge high damage one to stop low charge/high armour foes from getting to the pikes. Support those two units with a good ranged unit, and it will be very hard to break through.
+Sean Beahn Going to pull a 'but history shows' here, but history shows they were used as heavy charge units. Trampling their way down the battlefield.
@@ethnanboxman But history show that is what you'd do with calvary. Still most light calvary simply doesn't charge into dense infantry formations. And even if they do, they are touch and go operations.
In real life, cataphracts had a strong and slow change, and were good at long melee fights due to their heavy armor. In this game, the cataphracts act too much like Western knights, which were faster and relied more on a fast in-and-out charge.
+Aradim90 He actually did this to test the difference between light mass/high charge, and heavy mass/light charge. Heavy mass did better. Period. They did this test while I was updating a mod that I mentioned to them.
Awesome video. I knew that impact knocked enemies down (which seems to reduce casualties suffered when cycle charging), but I didn't realize it actually did significant damage. A few questions: 1. How fast does the charge bonus to melee attack and damage decay, after impact? 2. Are knocked down (but still living) enemies actually unable to attack until they get up, in keeping with their animations? If so, this would partly explain why heavier cav seem more effective at cycle charging. 3. Are camels heavier (in terms of unit mass) than superheavy cavalry?
+Erik Wright well, I can't answer the first question, but as for the second one, yes enemies are unable to attack, this is why pullthroughs with super heavy cav are much easier to pull than with light cav, assuming both are fresh and both are shock cav, because all infantry gets knocked down while in light cav only 2 rows usually get knocked down. For the third question, yes, camels have considerably higher mass when compared to units of their own tier, but they sacrifice both turning ratio and speed, not to mention reach distance is increased due to camels having a higher steed, so they get less hits per minute than horsemen
+Erik Wright 1. Charge bonus lasts 15 seconds. 2. Yes. How long they stay knocked down is based on their armor score as well. Each point of armor adds .08 seconds to their knocked down time, to a cap of about six seconds being knocked down, if I remember correctly. 3+ Some more. The damage formula for impact damage: (Force^1.5)*2+20, half of this is AP. Light camels weigh as much as heavy cavalry, but charge slower. This still results in heavy camels having the most possible charge force. Most horses are going to have an effective impact force of around 60-38 (Heavy-medium,) with camels capping out at 88 without rapid advance, or 132 with rapid advance. You subtract the bracing (Or charging,) force of the enemy from this, but it probably will loose. Himyarite Armored Shotelai can rapid advance as heavy camels, meaning against heavy cavalry, they have a theoretical impact damage of 1240. The reason why they don't instantly kill anything on the charge is because all cavalry, elephants, and chariots are immune to impact damage. This can be changed in an KV rules file, which then makes Himyarite Armored Shotelai capable of killing anything with an impact alone.
+WalrusJones That's tremendous information, thanks! A related question: do traits like Expert Charge Defense redirect charge bonus, impact damage, both, or something else altogether?
i know that is not the reason for the video, but i seriously hope that cavalry won't be that dominating in twwh. i know this is a very cavalry dominant age, where hordes of mounted steppepeople ravaged through europe, but they have overdone it in my eyes...well, still hoping for the best although twwh will be a pain in the arse to balance
Man bracing must be so shit in atilla, how can a very light cav even dream of knocking down very heavy braced infantry unit is beyond my comprehension, I would get how they would one shot the first line of infantry, but they just steamrolled through all three ranks!
+Shaman King You get 2X mass per rank the unit is standing in, up to three ranks. Having charge reflection just gives you a 4X mass multiplier when braced regardless of rank depth. The issue isn't that bracing is THAT weak, but that impact damage has an exponential formula, meaning, that if you can beat it, you can kill anything that isn't immune to bracing.
the awnser is momentum try to stop a unarmoured horse from your local stables as it is charging at full speed at you fourty km/h. Even when you where fourty kilo's of armour you wil be nokked away, espacialy with only one man behind you. That is how thin this line was
Lucas La Poutré it was a 3 rank line though, and with a VERY well armored unit with a pretty big shield, those cav shouldn't be able to knock over 3 lines, only the first, and maybe knockback the second, you also have to count in that in real life, those shields would be raised high so the lancers have a choice or either charging into a shield and killing 1 line of infantry and losing their lances, or aim low and risk barely harming the soldiers, also the second line would be giving full support for the first line, instead of just watching as their companions get slaughtered
Face palm...cav in Attila. Went from melee cav being slightly too weak in Rome 2 to massively OP vs infantry on the charge.
I agre with you I think it is ok for the Light unit with extreem stats on the charge. of witch I think that there're representing training, can one shot an infantry in three ranks deep. But a mele cav. with horses and man that are not trained for charging. Not to speek abouth their wapons witch sould be inferior on the charge. Wy would anyone pick shock cav. anymore if a mele Does the same/more damage. While historical lancers where used until WW1
+HeirofCarthage I don't understand why they keep doing this. Instead of making small changes towards something that works, they change things completely. Units are either useless or OP. Germanic Horsemen for example. Nerfed into the ground. Tagmata. Nerfed into the ground, only to have more OP cavalry introduced.
+Maximus Decimus Meridius A big problem is the way company structures make it take weeks to get a patch approved, meaning, developers feel they can't risk introducing any ineffective fixes, and will refuse to tinker with anything that is a serious problem in fearing that they may break it for months.
+HeirofCarthage
Armored Himyarite Shotelai: tagmata of the day.
So I started a himyar campaign, began with dirt-cheap tribesmen/raider spam and ended up with stacks with 4-6 of AHS raping everyone and their dogs, while having a hookers-and-blow economy (egypt alone makes 25k/turn with those pleasure house chain, -25% corruption applied) bring me 40k per turn, 600k in the coffers. By 415. CA, please?
So the most profitable things in attila must be hookers and booze (tanukhid horde industry chain). Roman industry? Sassanid trade? Forget those, we make 3500/turn with no unrest penalty! Oh, and religious buildings that GIVE food along with +7 influence, certainly balanced.
I posted the formula for impact damage in the Erik Wright comment chain, with an explanation of how to properly apply the formula to calculate impact damage. Copypasting it here.
The damage formula for impact damage:
(Force^1.5)*2+20, half of this is AP.
Light camels weigh as much as heavy cavalry, but charge slower. This
still results in heavy camels having the most possible charge force.
Most horses are going to have an effective impact force of around 60-38
(Heavy-medium,) with camels capping out at 88 without rapid advance, or
132 with rapid advance. You subtract the bracing (Or charging,) force of
the enemy from this, but it probably will loose.
Himyarite Armored Shotelai can rapid advance as heavy camels, meaning
against heavy cavalry, they have a theoretical impact damage of 1240.
The reason why they don't instantly kill anything on the charge is
because all cavalry, elephants, and chariots are immune to impact
damage.
This can be changed in an KV rules file, which then makes Himyarite
Armored Shotelai capable of killing anything with an impact alone.
Wow... this is highly interesting... :o Btw Maximus, what units do you think are the most effective in siege battles? Like fighting in the alleys of a town/city?
+DontKnow9000 well, in a defensive battle, I would say a unit with expert charge defense would work really well, or getting a number of BGA's as they are a very excellent unit
Thanks for the reply :) I meant more like offensive styled siege battles where i have to attack and not defend. What unit would be best to conquer a city in those pesky "alley fights" which are defended by spears etc :o?
DontKnow9000 hmmm, welp if a pike unit cant stop an athars chosen i dont see why an archer tower would, so you might as well try getting those guys in
+DontKnow9000 This is one area where pikes can work well. Keep a good melee unit behind them, ideally a high charge high damage one to stop low charge/high armour foes from getting to the pikes. Support those two units with a good ranged unit, and it will be very hard to break through.
dont forget, charge bonus works vs horses, impact damage not; so mavias chosen does its job vs camels/elefants/horses AND inf.
TBH I personally think cataphracts shouldn't be shock cav, nor melee cav. But I think somewhere in between would be nice.
+Sean Beahn Going to pull a 'but history shows' here, but history shows they were used as heavy charge units. Trampling their way down the battlefield.
+Sean Beahn A lance on the charge and a mace for the follow up would be nice.
+Ethnan Boxman Cataphracts in history didn't use butter knives in prolonged melee.
@@ethnanboxman But history show that is what you'd do with calvary. Still most light calvary simply doesn't charge into dense infantry formations. And even if they do, they are touch and go operations.
In real life, cataphracts had a strong and slow change, and were good at long melee fights due to their heavy armor. In this game, the cataphracts act too much like Western knights, which were faster and relied more on a fast in-and-out charge.
If impact damage is calculated in Warhammer 2 the same way it's here , heavy cav would actually be viable again.
Good demo
I don't understand why you made this video, havent you already tested bracing multiple times? Spaghetti lines being crushed by cav is nothing new.
+Aradim90 He actually did this to test the difference between light mass/high charge, and heavy mass/light charge. Heavy mass did better. Period.
They did this test while I was updating a mod that I mentioned to them.
+Aradim90 I have never tested 377 charge on a Very Light unit against the 48 charge of a Very Heavy camel unit, no.
So basicly high melee attack is better than High charge bonus?
Weight and momentum.
Awesome video. I knew that impact knocked enemies down (which seems to reduce casualties suffered when cycle charging), but I didn't realize it actually did significant damage. A few questions:
1. How fast does the charge bonus to melee attack and damage decay, after impact?
2. Are knocked down (but still living) enemies actually unable to attack until they get up, in keeping with their animations? If so, this would partly explain why heavier cav seem more effective at cycle charging.
3. Are camels heavier (in terms of unit mass) than superheavy cavalry?
+Erik Wright well, I can't answer the first question, but as for the second one, yes enemies are unable to attack, this is why pullthroughs with super heavy cav are much easier to pull than with light cav, assuming both are fresh and both are shock cav, because all infantry gets knocked down while in light cav only 2 rows usually get knocked down. For the third question, yes, camels have considerably higher mass when compared to units of their own tier, but they sacrifice both turning ratio and speed, not to mention reach distance is increased due to camels having a higher steed, so they get less hits per minute than horsemen
+Erik Wright 1. Charge bonus lasts 15 seconds.
2. Yes. How long they stay knocked down is based on their armor score as well. Each point of armor adds .08 seconds to their knocked down time, to a cap of about six seconds being knocked down, if I remember correctly.
3+ Some more. The damage formula for impact damage:
(Force^1.5)*2+20, half of this is AP.
Light camels weigh as much as heavy cavalry, but charge slower. This still results in heavy camels having the most possible charge force. Most horses are going to have an effective impact force of around 60-38 (Heavy-medium,) with camels capping out at 88 without rapid advance, or 132 with rapid advance. You subtract the bracing (Or charging,) force of the enemy from this, but it probably will loose.
Himyarite Armored Shotelai can rapid advance as heavy camels, meaning against heavy cavalry, they have a theoretical impact damage of 1240. The reason why they don't instantly kill anything on the charge is because all cavalry, elephants, and chariots are immune to impact damage.
This can be changed in an KV rules file, which then makes Himyarite Armored Shotelai capable of killing anything with an impact alone.
WalrusJones I believe the max knock down time was 8, unless they changed it in atilla
It was changed.
+WalrusJones That's tremendous information, thanks!
A related question: do traits like Expert Charge Defense redirect charge bonus, impact damage, both, or something else altogether?
i know that is not the reason for the video, but i seriously hope that cavalry won't be that dominating in twwh. i know this is a very cavalry dominant age, where hordes of mounted steppepeople ravaged through europe, but they have overdone it in my eyes...well, still hoping for the best although twwh will be a pain in the arse to balance
+AdoringFan000 I don't think it will be. There are so many potential counters not available in Attila, rapid fire gunpowder, magic, monsters..
+Maximus Decimus Meridius And the (actually strong faction in the tabletop) dwarfs would not be viable in multiplayer whatsoever
Man bracing must be so shit in atilla, how can a very light cav even dream of knocking down very heavy braced infantry unit is beyond my comprehension, I would get how they would one shot the first line of infantry, but they just steamrolled through all three ranks!
+Shaman King You get 2X mass per rank the unit is standing in, up to three ranks.
Having charge reflection just gives you a 4X mass multiplier when braced regardless of rank depth.
The issue isn't that bracing is THAT weak, but that impact damage has an exponential formula, meaning, that if you can beat it, you can kill anything that isn't immune to bracing.
the awnser is momentum try to stop a unarmoured horse from your local stables as it is charging at full speed at you fourty km/h. Even when you where fourty kilo's of armour you wil be nokked away, espacialy with only one man behind you. That is how thin this line was
Lucas La Poutré it was a 3 rank line though, and with a VERY well armored unit with a pretty big shield, those cav shouldn't be able to knock over 3 lines, only the first, and maybe knockback the second, you also have to count in that in real life, those shields would be raised high so the lancers have a choice or either charging into a shield and killing 1 line of infantry and losing their lances, or aim low and risk barely harming the soldiers, also the second line would be giving full support for the first line, instead of just watching as their companions get slaughtered
Lets not forget the horses own voluntary deceleration, and the fact that a cataphract is pretty unlikely to be moving at 40KMH.
WalrusJones very true