The Dark Secrets Hidden Under the Forgotten Sith Throneworlds

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  • Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024

Комментарии • 152

  • @OhOh996
    @OhOh996 2 года назад +148

    I'm just a simple man, watching through and liking Geetsly's content.

    • @dalisegall5394
      @dalisegall5394 2 года назад +2

      Same

    • @Turenkoren
      @Turenkoren 2 года назад +3

      Preach it brother

    • @geetslys
      @geetslys  2 года назад +21

      Always appreciated 😂

    • @RichardDrink
      @RichardDrink 2 года назад +6

      I'm just a simple man, liking comments I agree with.

    • @darthcarnage6734
      @darthcarnage6734 2 года назад

      I love Geetslys channel too. He’s one of the few true fans that isn’t a Clickbaiter, fake news spreading,woke Sjw, or Dissssney shill. I think Geetsly should kneel down to Darth Melvin and become his apprentice. The Knights of Melvin could use alliances with good creators like this guy

  • @alwaysplotting2096
    @alwaysplotting2096 2 года назад +86

    The environments of Sith worlds tend to reflect some aspect of their masters' nature. Fitting for beings that exalt themselves to obtain power.

    • @geetslys
      @geetslys  2 года назад +13

      Yes, they are always reflecting the sith in general.

  • @Mobysimo
    @Mobysimo 2 года назад +87

    Considering that mere presence on Nathema drove Force Users mad, I don't blame the Sith for avoiding Ziost like the plauge after Vitiate drained it

    • @MNN1991
      @MNN1991 2 года назад +14

      True but Ziost wasn't as extreme as Nathema. You could still use the force on Ziost while Nathema was drianed of all life and the force itself.

    • @Mobysimo
      @Mobysimo 2 года назад +5

      @@MNN1991 Well you could use the Force on Nathema, but you needed to steel yourself for the planet.
      Vaylin was able to use it with no issue since she was used to the planet already, but Lana Beniko, who's a damn strong Sith in her own right, nearly went mad before she centered herself.

    • @thalmoragent9344
      @thalmoragent9344 2 года назад

      Wait, so Ziost was worse off than even Nathema?

    • @Mobysimo
      @Mobysimo 2 года назад

      @@thalmoragent9344 It ended up exactly like Nathema. Only without the sanitarium designed to drive people to irreparable insanity

    • @thalmoragent9344
      @thalmoragent9344 2 года назад

      @@Mobysimo
      Oh, so Nathema was actually the more dangerous one, as it had a higher rate of insanity tied to it?

  • @Tommy-mo7wh
    @Tommy-mo7wh 2 года назад +39

    Dromund Kaas has to be my favorite star wars planet. Just something about this vibe from a giant city, in a huge jungle tainted by the dark side.

    • @internetpleb4854
      @internetpleb4854 2 года назад +3

      Ever noticed that Ziost has a similar but opposite Aesthetic giant cities that seem more flushed out than Kaas city built above and below ground surrounded by obsidian looking rocks with a dark side influence.

  • @zexalbrony4799
    @zexalbrony4799 2 года назад +47

    You'd think with how power-hungry Sidious was that he'd set up all kinds of bases on these worlds so he could soak up all their dark nexus energy and become even more powerful.
    For this man, unlimited power is still not enough, after all. LOL.

    • @geetslys
      @geetslys  2 года назад +11

      That would be an exciting story to later figure out in Star Wars later down the line

    • @Mobysimo
      @Mobysimo 2 года назад +3

      If I'm not mistaken, there is some kind of Dark Side thing on Coruscant. I may be mistaken though

    • @deacon6221
      @deacon6221 2 года назад +4

      @@Mobysimo yeah there was a dark artifact built by the Sith under the Jedi Temple.

    • @stargatecommand714
      @stargatecommand714 2 года назад +2

      Byss

    • @johnnygyro2295
      @johnnygyro2295 2 года назад

      Apparently, that's another reason why Palpatine set up his cloning lab on Exegol in the Disney Timeline...

  • @dylanrivera2244
    @dylanrivera2244 2 года назад +11

    10 Darkest Star Wars Planets
    1)Korriban
    2)Malachor V
    3)Dathomir
    4)Dromund Kaas
    5)Ziost
    6)Byss
    7)Felucia
    8)Mustafar
    9)Rakata Prime
    10)Raxus Prime

  • @morrgash
    @morrgash 2 года назад +29

    The old eras of Star Wars are so cool and interesting filled with enough materials to create the greatest TV series Star Wars has ever seen, sadly it is being overlooked for a reason which we don't know about yet.

    • @scribblerstudios9895
      @scribblerstudios9895 2 года назад +8

      Because it wasn't made by Disney. A company well known for revisionism of the facts. Many of the old fairy tales were actually much darker then Disney presents

    • @ignisinfernal1843
      @ignisinfernal1843 2 года назад +4

      It's probably being overlooked for now because they'd rather visit a mostly unexplored era than retread ground covered in Legends. They'll definitely get to it at some point (maybe a little after the KOTOR remake), but they probably want to be a bit more established and have a bit more time for people to forget or at less focus less on the sequels.

    • @ignisinfernal1843
      @ignisinfernal1843 2 года назад +2

      ​@@scribblerstudios9895 Disney doesn't do anything with Star Wars. The Lucasfilm Story Group runs everything. Also, it's not revising "facts" if you're changing a made-up story (most of which being not very well-known prior to Disney) to make it more suitable for their very young intended audience. Disney's pretty shady, but there's far better things you can criticize them for.

    • @morrgash
      @morrgash 2 года назад

      @@ignisinfernal1843 I hope that is the case!

    • @ronjon7942
      @ronjon7942 19 дней назад

      @@ignisinfernal1843Shakespeare’s works are made up, too. By your logic, it’d be OK to alter them, to make them, you know, more kid friendly?
      The kid-friendliest thing dinsey could do would be to go out of business.

  • @Lawrence_Talbot
    @Lawrence_Talbot 2 года назад +65

    Still one of the most haunting passages I have read in a Star Wars novel comes from when Revan visits Nathema and felt nothing. No life, no force, just perpetual, palpable nothingness.

    • @andorwid1880
      @andorwid1880 2 года назад +3

      Wich novel is the passage in?

    • @wildchrisman1494
      @wildchrisman1494 2 года назад +6

      @@andorwid1880 It would be from the novel “Revan”

    • @Mobysimo
      @Mobysimo 2 года назад +8

      I remember in that novel when Meetra visited Nathema and said how it felt even worse than Malachor V. Malachor was broken and dead, but Nathema was just.... wrong. Empty and devoid of everything

  • @quintendekker8100
    @quintendekker8100 2 года назад +7

    Dromund kaas is such a funny name to me because kaas means cheese in the dutch language so for me the capitol’s name is cheese city

  • @LordWyatt
    @LordWyatt 2 года назад +2

    The Sith really knew how to pick ‘em. Desert to Ice world to junglestorm planet.

  • @hellreaper0136
    @hellreaper0136 2 года назад +42

    How about a full history of the Sith. Like you did on the old Republic.

    • @geetslys
      @geetslys  2 года назад +15

      That would be a great video!

    • @1qplayer626
      @1qplayer626 2 года назад +1

      @@geetslys yes please make a Series on the sith!

  • @Sioolol
    @Sioolol 2 года назад +9

    Darth Millenial was a master in a rare sith art of harnessing the power of his own depression.

  • @crocowithaglocko5876
    @crocowithaglocko5876 2 года назад +11

    This just is the sci-if equivalent of hiding a trapdoor under the rug

  • @ryandempsey02
    @ryandempsey02 2 года назад +5

    Thank you so very much for these sith teachings they make my day , Its my dream that one day they will make movies and shows about more true sith

  • @aloysiuskalligunderratedsi8861
    @aloysiuskalligunderratedsi8861 2 года назад +2

    I love Korriban and Dromund Kaas and Thank you

  • @keithklassen5320
    @keithklassen5320 2 года назад +3

    Omg, Darth Millennial! He destroyed the Rule Of Two industry.

  • @lordkhorne9223
    @lordkhorne9223 2 года назад +2

    I went to Korriban for the summer, it was quite lovely if you don’t mind all the Sith spouting off their incantations and nightmarish visions

    • @ronjon7942
      @ronjon7942 19 дней назад

      Meh, too many kids. If you can get there right after school starts…

  • @zachhoward2940
    @zachhoward2940 2 года назад +9

    I truly enjoy your Old Republic era videos. Keep up the good work!

  • @MBP1918
    @MBP1918 2 года назад +4

    Korriban and Ziost are under appreciated

  • @EricVornoff
    @EricVornoff 2 года назад +10

    More videos about the different ancient Sith factions would be cool.

  • @graemeparrington2841
    @graemeparrington2841 2 года назад +4

    Would love to see an in depth background story to Dathomir, also.

  • @HIMcules2112
    @HIMcules2112 2 года назад +8

    I think my favorite Sith world has to be Ziost

  • @TheItalianGentleman2394
    @TheItalianGentleman2394 2 года назад +2

    Shout out to all my fellow imperial agents dromund kaas is awesome

  • @OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN
    @OMEGATHENIETZCHIAN 2 года назад +1

    You missed some Legends lore.
    Drummond Kaas and Ziost reappear in the Fate of the Jedi saga with Abeloth creating a darkside bomb by concentrating all of the dark side energies of Kaas into a single being, and Ben Skywalker discovering an ancient sith meditation sphere on Ziost. At that point, it should be noted Ziost had regrown, being a snowy world full of dark forests that whispered with the spirits of long dead sith, which haunted Ben.

  • @BI-11y_TheStormTrooper
    @BI-11y_TheStormTrooper 2 года назад +9

    Why didn't Luke just go to malachor to get a cyber crystal instead of the tedious process of making an artificial one ? If he couldn't get one from illum then the ancient mass battlefield/graveyard under malachor would be the perfect place to get one .

    • @olivianewcomb2227
      @olivianewcomb2227 2 года назад +4

      My best guesses would be that Malachor was destroyed, or that he had no knowledge of it. After all, unless some Jedi managed to hide really secret info from the archives at the temple, it probably wasn't a commonly known planet or battle.

    • @samueldimmock694
      @samueldimmock694 2 года назад +6

      I think Malachor V was destroyed, and no other world in that system was the site of a major battle, as far as I know.

    • @Mobysimo
      @Mobysimo 2 года назад +4

      Because Malachor V was dust. The Mass Shadow Generator is activated again at the end of Kotor 2 and tears the planet apart, ending the threat of the Trayus Academy forever

    • @BI-11y_TheStormTrooper
      @BI-11y_TheStormTrooper 2 года назад

      Mind you I'm taking about malachor in Cannon not legends .

    • @ronjon7942
      @ronjon7942 19 дней назад

      @@Mobysimoohhhh yeah, that’s right. Forgot about Malachor, scene 2.

  • @Obiwan7100
    @Obiwan7100 2 года назад +5

    Which Star Wars starfighter do you like the most?
    My favorite is BTL-A4 Y-wing Fighter-Bomber

    • @ronjon7942
      @ronjon7942 19 дней назад

      Umm, ok. Well, A-Wing for me.

  • @davidevans916
    @davidevans916 2 года назад +1

    I would love to see a film or tv series about the infinite empire

  • @jeffgoespewpew7189
    @jeffgoespewpew7189 2 года назад +1

    Boom baby I'm here we can get this vid going

  • @tigris0698
    @tigris0698 2 года назад +2

    Dromund Kaas is such a funny name, since kaas, is Dutch for cheese.

  • @barnettmcgowan8978
    @barnettmcgowan8978 2 года назад +4

    Awesome video! I'd love to see more content like this.

  • @johnquach8821
    @johnquach8821 2 года назад +1

    Collapse of the SWTOR Sith Empire: A missed opportunity

  • @phorz85
    @phorz85 4 месяца назад

    Krayt's sith had their hq on corriban 4 decades. But seeing how they were the hipsters of the order, claiming how they differed while really copying the worst of the most flawed phases - understandable how one'd like to ignore them.

  • @avgjoegaming8271
    @avgjoegaming8271 2 года назад +3

    Less stuff hidden and more just a backstory of sith capitols.

  • @grimreaper3882
    @grimreaper3882 2 года назад +1

    Take a drink every time he says Drumund Kaas.

  • @luis_zuniga
    @luis_zuniga 2 года назад +1

    Could you do videos on other factions like the Bothan, Hapes Consortium and the Corporate Sector

  • @internetpleb4854
    @internetpleb4854 2 года назад +1

    When Viciate finally died ,Life and the force returned to Nathema the empire missed 2 golden opportunities in not reclaiming the world.
    Before the emperor’s ritual Nathema was a lush agri world of the old sith empire other than the immediate benefit of adding more territory the new sith empire could have established a settlement on the planet preferably resettling the refugees from Ziost and turn the world into the empires breadbasket.
    Viciate had removed Nathema from history and most star charts meaning that the ruins of the cities and temples of the ancient sith planet were not plundered and in mostly excellent condition the Imperial reclamation service would have had a field day recovering relics any surviving written works etc.

  • @rebeldropper8933
    @rebeldropper8933 2 года назад +2

    Wow the Sith used to kill each other thru infighting? Since when have they done that?lol

  • @chasedavison5023
    @chasedavison5023 2 года назад +1

    Great video love the sith

  • @jamiewalsh3349
    @jamiewalsh3349 2 года назад +1

    I don't know if its just me but I get the feeling Exegol was once Dromund Kaas. Yeah its random I know but Moraband was once Korriban

    • @goodmind4940
      @goodmind4940 2 года назад +2

      it's random because they're in different regions of the galaxy, one is in Outer Rim, other is in Unknown Regions

    • @jamiewalsh3349
      @jamiewalsh3349 2 года назад +1

      @@goodmind4940 I know Exegol is in Unknown Regions and I thought Dromund Kaas was too

    • @goodmind4940
      @goodmind4940 2 года назад +2

      @@jamiewalsh3349 maybe you're thinking of Zakuul

  • @NeutralSmith
    @NeutralSmith 2 года назад +2

    A whole planet for the Dutch cheese.

  • @michaelandreipalon359
    @michaelandreipalon359 2 года назад +1

    Would really love to blow up these good for nothing planets, but alas, such an idea turning to reality might make things worse times tenfold.
    You forgot about Mara Jade and Kyle "Forcedamned" Katarn's stint on Dromund Kaas in Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II - Mysteries of the Sith though.

    • @ronjon7942
      @ronjon7942 19 дней назад

      Why worse?

    • @michaelandreipalon359
      @michaelandreipalon359 19 дней назад

      @@ronjon7942 Who knows if such an act will release damned Sith souls who'll suddenly do a haunting Star Wars equivalent of the Wild Hunt. That's what I fear might happen.

  • @TeeLow
    @TeeLow 2 года назад

    I have a fanfic in my head that you and Majorkill are best buds

  • @lukelandrunner7915
    @lukelandrunner7915 2 года назад +1

    Love all your videos 👌

  • @nothuman4598
    @nothuman4598 2 года назад +2

    I love the content

  • @TypingWithIsaac
    @TypingWithIsaac 2 года назад

    I would like to see a video on Exogol's history. Thanks for making this interesting video!

  • @-CrimsoN-
    @-CrimsoN- 2 года назад

    Dromund Kaas appears in Dark Forces 2 Mysteries of the Sith as well.

  • @nickvinsable3798
    @nickvinsable3798 2 года назад +1

    🤔 . . . I know of two ambitious Sith from around the SWtOR times: Darth [Wrath] & Darth [Sloth]. Darth [Wrath] was an impatient & overly aggressive Sith Marauder while Darth [Sloth] was a slow, yet sturdy, Sith Juggernaut. These two Sith respectfully hated each other; criticizing & condemning each other’s military philosophies. When Darth [Sloth] didn’t take the initiative to defeat an enemy’s failed attempt in breaking his defenses, Darth [Wrath] recklessly charged in & brought victory. Yet when Darth [Wrath] traveled too far in his offenses, he was usually forced to retreat, despite his urge to push forward, & Darth [Sloth] usually obliterated [Wrath]’s pursuers…

  • @VacadoRay
    @VacadoRay 2 года назад +3

    Its the Sith r34 art that's hidden there

  • @goldeagle6431
    @goldeagle6431 2 года назад +1

    The Senate is beyond these dark secrets.

  • @VaciliNikoMavich
    @VaciliNikoMavich 2 года назад +1

    What i don't get, is how do the Sith Empire's technology work on Dromund Kaas? In Mysteries of the Sith, technology didn't work too well -blasters, communications devices (which is why Kyle Katarn couldn't contact anyone) and etc, forcing Mara Jade to rely on the force and light saber itself.

  • @LordPorkshire
    @LordPorkshire 11 месяцев назад +1

    Hey guys I’m in Dromund Kaas city just hangin out

  • @supercellodude
    @supercellodude 2 года назад

    What is the nature of dark side corruption? Even the fanatics who remained on Korriban needed food and water; did they have moisture farms and aeroponics? At least the jungles of Dromund Kaas would provide sufficient material needs for agriculture, but if dark side exposure engenders violence in wildlife then what keeps the civilians of Sith Empires in stable populations?

  • @ayiza8511
    @ayiza8511 2 года назад

    The planet vitiate cleansed was not syos but his homeward nattema (know I spelled both planets name wrong)

  • @ronjon7942
    @ronjon7942 19 дней назад

    Sith planets are like bad pennies.

  • @justnoel4088
    @justnoel4088 2 года назад

    If you go to a Sith world and are not driven mad by immense dark side. . The monstrous experiments from alchemy and spirits of dead Sith will get you

  • @AnotherHaloGamer
    @AnotherHaloGamer 9 месяцев назад

    SWTOR intensifies!

  • @Legio_Purpura_10_28
    @Legio_Purpura_10_28 2 года назад

    Old Republic era is my wibe.

  • @CloneScavengerVulpin8389
    @CloneScavengerVulpin8389 Год назад

    I would like to see korriban and ziost in live-action.

  • @aloysiuskalligunderratedsi8861
    @aloysiuskalligunderratedsi8861 2 года назад

    I am from Dromund Kaas Welcome (SWTOR Sith Inquisitor Darth Nox)

  • @jonahstirbis3408
    @jonahstirbis3408 2 года назад

    I would build a sith fortress on ziost because no sith ever thought to have a fortress their after the sith emperor drained it of life.

  • @SenVerweij
    @SenVerweij 2 года назад

    Been waiting for this video

  • @Ohimeshinso
    @Ohimeshinso 2 года назад +1

    Now, maybe I'm too much of a boomer and I'm going senile, but I seem to remember the original Sith Empire being ruled on Korriban before the Sith migrated to Ziost.
    P.S. Senile it must be, as I made this comment in the first minute 9f the videi and shortly thereafter discovered how poor my memory apparently is

  • @sithlordjeffbledsoe651
    @sithlordjeffbledsoe651 2 года назад

    More in depth on Kaas I find it very intriguing ziost is dead I watched it happen and koriban is nothing but dust in tombs

  • @jacobramos3473
    @jacobramos3473 Месяц назад

    Me currently reading Rise and Fall of the Galactic Empire

  • @jackieanderson9408
    @jackieanderson9408 2 года назад

    Sweet 👍

  • @cristianmora1911
    @cristianmora1911 2 года назад +1

    What comic like first brought up ziost

    • @CouncilCape897
      @CouncilCape897 2 года назад

      Tales of the Jedi: The Golden Age of the Sith

  • @adamstala7816
    @adamstala7816 2 года назад

    What about the mandolorian bastion worlds

  • @TheEmperorsChampion964
    @TheEmperorsChampion964 2 года назад +2

    Would destroying these worlds with say the death star cleanse the dark side taint or make it worse?

    • @kyleslavik6324
      @kyleslavik6324 2 года назад +1

      That's a good question but the Force always seeks balance according to Revan.

    • @TheEmperorsChampion964
      @TheEmperorsChampion964 2 года назад +2

      @@kyleslavik6324 for example the mass shadow generator when it was first activated created a wound in the force and such a dark side nexus that merely walking on its surface caused Jedi to fall to the dark side but years later the mass shadow generator was reactivated destroying Malachor 5 for good and you never hear about it again

    • @samueldimmock694
      @samueldimmock694 2 года назад

      @@kyleslavik6324 I haven't played that game, but I'm pretty sure Revan doesn't know what he's talking about. Just to warn you, though, this theory is based on a very complex analysis of the Force's portrayals throughout Star Wars, so if you don't want a long in-depth conversation, we can just agree to disagree. Otherwise, I'm ready when you are.

    • @samueldimmock694
      @samueldimmock694 2 года назад +2

      It would diffuse it and destroy whatever object or location it was tied to, meaning the taint would probably dissipate over time, though I don't know how much time. I do know that the destruction of the Death Star II did not destroy the taint caused by Palpatine's death immediately--it was still there years later during the Thrawn Campaign.
      Probably the Sun Crusher would be better, since it would disperse it over a wider area and more thoroughly destroy the planet itself.

    • @papapalps2415
      @papapalps2415 2 года назад

      @@samueldimmock694 I'm not entirely sure what your 'theory' is going to go in detail about, because there really isn't much debate to be had. The mere fact Anakin exists renders the point moot. We factually know the Force seeks balance on at least some level.

  • @jfkkkkkkkk4158
    @jfkkkkkkkk4158 2 года назад +1

    Hello

  • @kaijudirector5336
    @kaijudirector5336 2 года назад

    Quick Question: Korriban or Byss? (aka Hell or False Heaven)

  • @chewyandchris
    @chewyandchris Год назад

    What was revans capital was it rekata prime/the star forge

  • @lukeduberry3356
    @lukeduberry3356 2 года назад

    Is there information on what happened to clones who died on the battlefield ? Whether they were collected by the GAR or left dead on the battlefield ? @geetslys

  • @robinthedragonhunter64
    @robinthedragonhunter64 2 года назад +1

    I’m a simple man with simple pleasures

  • @Bottera82
    @Bottera82 Год назад

    WHAT ABOUT THESE AND OTHER SITH WORLDS DURING THE ERA OF DARTH KRYAT?

    • @LordPorkshire
      @LordPorkshire 11 месяцев назад

      Tell me, why is it in all caps?

  • @xminusone1
    @xminusone1 2 года назад +1

    Darth millennial, there's many of them on tic toc..

  • @deadgoon2170
    @deadgoon2170 2 года назад

    Why would the Sith colonize a jungle planet, one crawling with life?

  • @alphapham2060
    @alphapham2060 2 года назад +1

    Oh the sith are the original Zionist.

  • @darthvader2053
    @darthvader2053 2 года назад +1

    the day geetsley likes and replies to my comment ill legitimately backflip kick the nearest jedi

  • @LordNougat
    @LordNougat 2 года назад +1

    Bah. You're too racist against the Sith! The only true hope for order and prosperity in the galaxy!

  • @Docthewrench
    @Docthewrench 2 года назад

    EA or bio star Wars is not lore.. Not canon.
    It's just monkey balls.
    Any star Wars info connected to swtor is not canon....
    Sadly nothing pre Disney is canon.. Unless the mouse says so
    But damn sure nothing from swtor

  • @jachymfoj
    @jachymfoj 2 года назад +1

    In a lot of your Old Republic videos, your info about the SWTOR game is just wrong. In this one, you wrongly claim that Vitiate was a Darth. Also Vitiate took Valkorion's body hundreds of years before he was beaten on Dromund Kaas

    • @kub5615
      @kub5615 2 года назад

      Vitiate didnt switch boddies until he fought revan. And I would say he was a darth. Just when he first got his name the title of darth wasnt around but it was in his empire when people started useing the darth title even tho its never mentioned he held it too

    • @mizu7662
      @mizu7662 2 года назад

      So far as I am aware, sith only change their name upon becoming a darth. When Marka Ragnos declared that Tenebra was henceforth Lord Vitiate he was raising him up to darth status not merely making him a lord. I mean, it would be pretty damn silly of him to say 'man, look at this guy who cut through all those sith lords like a hot knife through butter and was clearly far about lord level in strength. I guess I better grant him a title he has already proven is inferior to his strength instead of one that reflects his accomplishments'.

    • @kub5615
      @kub5615 2 года назад

      @@mizu7662 Some sith already used their new name even at the Lord status

    • @jachymfoj
      @jachymfoj 2 года назад

      @@kub5615 well he did fight revan 300 years before swtor. And šance he was not using the title, he was not a darth. Most of the old sith were not using the darth title, like marka ragnos, ludo kressh, tulak hord, ajunta pall etc.

    • @jachymfoj
      @jachymfoj 2 года назад

      @@mizu7662 sith change their name usually at the lord status, for example lord Baras, lord Zash, lord Bane, or really most of the lord in the brotherhood of darkness

  • @JamesAce
    @JamesAce 2 года назад

    Bruh i got unsubbed

  • @nebfierer6377
    @nebfierer6377 2 года назад

    Forgotten, nah I got swtor