Lithium Battery Install with AGM Starter Battery and Victron DC-to-DC Charger
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- Опубликовано: 16 июл 2024
- A few weeks back we purchased 400 amp hours of lithium batteries from Rebel Batteries for our sailboat, and now we're sharing the lithium battery installation along with how we use them with an AGM cranking battery and a Orion DC-to-DC charger. We share the wiring schematics and the entire installation.
Hope you find this helpful!
There's a list of components down below.
Matt
SV Cadence
Feel free to jump around in the video:
00:00 Welcome
00:30 Wiring Diagram (Schematic)
08:50 Lithium Battery Placements
10:20 Securing the Batteries
11:30 Lead Acid Removal
13:00 AGM Starter Battery
17:00 Creating Mounting Locations
19:20 Making & Running Cables
20:50 Victron Smart Sense
24:00 Orion DC to DC Charger
31:50 Explanation of Electrical Components
Rebel Lithium Battery 100ah amzn.to/3fbElCF
Victron Orion DC-to-DC Charger 30amp Non-Isolated amzn.to/2QJRUQt
Victron Smart Battery Sense amzn.to/3wGnFth
Victron Smart Shunt 500A amzn.to/3hMRdRv
ANL Fuse Block 300A amzn.to/3udvTao
Bus Bar 250A amzn.to/3u8Eco5
Maxi Fuse Block amzn.to/34nD19X
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👍 If you enjoyed this episode, leave us a thumbs up!
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Who Are We?
We're the Fosters, and we just sold our house and purchased a sailboat, Cadence, a Catalina 387. We're on a journey to minimize our life, learn to live on a sailboat, and sail away.
In 2019, Matt quit his public education career of 15 years, and went full-time building his own business. Olivia is ready to explore the world, and so am I...but first, we have to save up, learn about sailing, and figure out a way to leave land.
We're sharing this journey with you in hopes that it'll bring you a smile, provide something helpful, and maybe give a bit of inspiration to live life on your terms - to explore your world.
Join us as we take this journey into the unknown, and share some laughs along the way.
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Loved the episode...fits in with my back ground. Easy way to remember the wattage formula is remember the word "PIE" where P=IxE. P(power in wattage) = I(amps) x E(volts). So 12vdc x 100amp = 1200 watts. 1200 watts x 4 batteries - 4800 watts. Thank you for keeping us inspired!
Loved your intro Nancy! 😁 Great job Matt on the details and diagrams! 🤓
Nice work & a very professional install- gotta love the access on the 387!
I was told there’d be no math 😄. You must have done a lot of research. Good for you... I think it’s important to understand your system intimately when out on the big blue. Cheers
lol, Yes! Thank you!
It looks like a good start. I did want to tell you that you should place a label on the rotary disconnect for the starter battery. It should read do not switch to off while the engine is running, or be left in the off position when the engine is started. Alternator damage will result. Though it may have that already, but the function may have changed, so it may need a placard indicating that some functions are unavailable. I.e. secondary connection not present, etc.
Good thinking! Appreciate it
I was more concerned about switching the Lithium bank on BEFORE starting the motor. Won't that draw current from the Lithiums to the starter motor, potentially over-currenting the lithium bank? :-/ Or maybe those shunts are protecting it from the starting draw... I need to go back and review the diagram, but I'm trying to design my own system now. ;-)
Just found your channel. Very good video. Editing is very good. I plan to install mine next week. Subscribed. 🙂
Awesome! Thank you!
Nice job!
Thanks!
Love your vlog! Just a tip, watch the 4200 cured components. 4200 is a better sealant than an adhesive. 5200 is the stronger, more permanent adhesive. I'm sure you did this in case you want to change things up in the future, however having a bus bar mount delaminate and fall to a dead short could be extremely problematic!
Can't wait till you guys cast off! See you on the water!
Thanks! Yeah, I went 4200 to allow myself a future adjustment, but we'll see how it lasts...the cables are so stiff, it almost stays in place without the 4200. 🤞
Great video. I love this stuff even though I'm not that knowledgeable about batteries or setting them up. Great way to start my day,...drinking coffee and watching this video.
I just purchased a ReBel 100ah battery for the Minn Kota trolling motor on my kayak.I love it and agree with you that Aric is a totally cool guy and extremely knowledgeable! Also, great install of the battery system!
If I may...I have one observation regarding the install that may or may not apply with sail boats. I noticed that you placed the batteries directly on the fiberglass floor. You were correctly concerned regarding the fourth battery being installed directly to the angle of the hull as premature wear could result and with the three remaining batteries you let them rest directly on the fiberglass bottom. As its a flat surface their resting on, I do not see that as being a problem with sail boats, however my contractor/airplane piloting paranoia and OCD kicked in. With any motorized, mechanical device there is a certain amount of vibration that is produced that can translate into frequency. Over prolonged periods of time that frequency could cause damage to two solid surfaces that make contact. I saw this with my airplane and in construction. Awhile back we built a structure over a subway train here in NYC and we were required to apply dampening devices to isolate certain components to the structure as vibration (or frequency) caused by the train’s underneath could eventually cause failure. Again, this is an extreme case that I'm sure would not apply to your sailboat however, but for peace of mind and to satisfy my OCD I would probably isolate the batteries with some type of dampening material such as foam, carpet or something that's good for wet water conditions. I not familiar with sail boats or the affect vibration from the diesel motor or rough seas would have on the connecting surfaces.
With that said, great video. I tend to live vicariously through you as I am jealous of the lifestyle you are now living. Keep the videos coming, be safe and keep up the good work.
That's some cool info and congrats on grabbing one of those batteries. I was concerned about the vibration too. We didn't mention in the video, but I had Olivia cut two strips of sense foam and those were laid under the batteries.
Not sure if that will absorb any energy or not, but we gave it a try.
Looking forward to see how that works out for you in future videos. Stay safe.
Good job
Thank you!
Watched the video again this morning. It was like watching 'Star Wars' for the hundredth time. :) Absolutely wonderful.
Just curious, are you planning to do a video review of the batteries in the near future? Id love to see the technical data as far as power consumption with lights, air conditioning, laundry machines, limitations, how well does solar panels charge the ReBel's, how you monitor the batteries, etc..... I know I probably sound like a science teacher asking his students for their labs,... but I'm totally fascinated with the potential of lithium.
Take care.
That's so awesome! I think a video like that is a great idea!
@@TheFosterJourney Yeah, I was thinking a comprehensive evaluation and report over the next few months would be very interesting to many users. I think it would increase your exposure on RUclips. I watched a video with SV Delos and he did something like that and his views went through the roof.
One more thing. We started with two 270 Ah AGM's, and swapped to one 360 Ah LiFePO4 battery. All Mastervolt. We are a solar charge cat, without generator. Motors are twin Yamaha outboards, so not really much of a charge source. We changed to lithium for the charge profile. The AGM bank would charge at bulk for a short while, then a long decreasing-current period of absorption, then float toward the end of the day. The batteries had a lot of resistance. The MLI (Mastervolts lithium) has essentially no resistance to charge. It has taken as much as 90 amps from our 100 amp shore power charger, and 58 amps from our solar. It's on bulk charge to 98-99% SOC, and then goes to float. Recharge is very fast, whereas with the AGM's, if we had some cloudy days, we might not get fully recharged by the end of the day.
So that story aside, what I am saying is that I would lean toward larger-capacity chargers. You have a house bank that can take essentially everything you can give it. If you have to run a generator for recharge, why not put out more amps so you can shorten the run time.
I just helped a buddy remove two 8D AGMs - those things are massive! I'm sure the lithium was much easier to handle! And the charging is amazing!
@@TheFosterJourney The Mastervolt 12/270 AGM's were actually Super 8D size, and each weighed 161 lbs. The Mastervolt MLI Ultra 12/5000 is also a big battery, a bit narrower, taller and longer. It's rated at 360 Ah, and weighs 128 lbs. It has sturdy handles, rather than the thin ropes of the AGM. But it's one unit. Whereas you have everything on blue tooth, we are hardwired Masterbus system to an EasyView display, and have the ability to hook up the laptop to data-record all chargers and batteries on up to 1 sec invertals (although we usually do 10 sec when testing.) It's pretty amazing stuff, but outrageously expensive. I think the MLI retails for around $6k.
HOWdy T-F-J, ...
Thank YOU = very WELL Explained,
COOP
the WiSeNhEiMeR from Richmond, INDIANA
...
Howdy!!
The washers should be on top of the cable lugs for better contact on the batteriesand the smatr shunt.
Thanks for sharing.
Great job. Has 400 AH been enough for you? Thanks for making that video. Subscribed
Thanks for the sub!! Woopwoop!
Yes, 400Ah is enough for us. A few kitchen appliances, 700w microwave, autopilot, we use the lights and fans without a thought, and 2 heavy wattage laptops. If anything, we'll need more solar when we upgrade our inverter to 2200 watts.
Nice job Are you able to take the DC to DC charger and limit the voltage and the current going to your LIPO4 batteries? thank you
Yes. It has a dozen or so charging profiles for volts and amps. Then you customize any charge setting you'd like. You can also limit the voltage of the source battery bank.
What specific adhesive did you use to attach the wood to the hull/fiberglass that you then mounted components to? Was the wood treated with anything? What kind of wood?
Great video, very educational, thank you for sharing, are you still happy with your rebels after 1+ year ? I'm moving to lithium and liking them but have limited knowledge, thx in advance
Yes! We're 3 years in and they've done well. Protection if I pull them too low and they maintain their charge as they did on day one.
Hi guys, great episode, we are getting ready to start this very same project in a few weeks. To your point about not finding diagrams on the web, did you do a final diagram with the additions you had to do? Would love to use that as a frame of reference if you have something you can share. Thank you.
You know, that's a great idea! I will draw up a clean version of the schematic, and then I'll share it out on our blog. Thanks for the great idea! And I wish you a good luck on your project, what boat do you have?
A hunter passage 42, we have been RVing the last two years and have decided to switch over to sailing. Bought a boat last Oct...know anyone who is looking for a 24ft C class rv... send them our way. We will probably still be here in FT Pierce, FL as you sail by on your way up the coast...nothings fast with a refit!
@@penitashaylor782 our friends have a 42 passage, that's great boat! And I do know someone looking...you should message us the model and details on Facebook @thefosterjourney
Great video. What did you do with the ground wire coming out of the DC-DC Charger? I can’t figure out if it should go to a negative terminal from one of the batteries or to another grounding location.
The ground runs to any negative terminal on the dc circuit. I have my on the system side of the victron smart shunt for a clean read on the amount of current and voltage the Orion is putting out.
@@TheFosterJourney Thanks for the reply. I'll plan to do the same.
@@mthompson5435 awesome! Which dc-dc charger did you get?
Looking at a similar upgrade for our sailboat. A few questions:
Did the Orion allow you to use you’re AC shore charger (Xantrex) to charge through the start battery to the lithium bank or does it only work with alternator power?
Additionally, was the Orion able to boost the charge voltage up when supplying charge to your lithiums?
It's been the best upgrade so far! Not at first...the shore power charger (20amp) didn't keep up, so I created a profile on the Orion that charges slower, and now it works perfectly. The lithium BMS shuts off charging when they're full.
Q2: yeah, the Orion comes with a lithium preset that bulk charges at 14+ volts. And you can adjust it to the battery spec whether 14.2, 14.4 or any voltage.
Do your mind explaining what settings you had to change to slow the charge cycle down for it to work? We also have a 20 amp AC charger.
The thing that worries me is the alternator. Is there a risk of smoking the alternator at low rpm’s? The situation being that maybe 30 to 40 amps are needed by the DC-DC charger and starter battery with the engine near idle the alternator cooling fan is not pushing much cooling air. I assume if you have a smart alternator or smart external alternator regulator this is not an issue. However, with say a stock older Volvo penta engine alternator is this likely an issue?
To partly answer my own question I guess you can set the DC-DC charger to only start after the alternator hits a reasonable output voltage?
Yep, you answered it. This dc-dc charger turns on and off at set voltages. At less than 900rpm you can hear it loading the engine and cycling on and off. At about 900rpm+ it can handle the load constantly. We sized the charger at less than half the alternator output to account for this.
@@TheFosterJourney thank you that’s really helpful to know. I have two aging agm house batteries and have been looking at replacing with lithium. What you did a few years ago looks like the way to go - thanks again.
@@fredturk6447 you're welcome! It's the way to go, and prices are much more affordable these days for the batteries.
I am considering a similar concept for my Sunfast 3200, and I'm interested in longer battery life. Typically though people put in a hydro generator which charges the batteries. But I am wondering if you had of put in more DC-DC chargers, or a more powerful DC_DC, would that have been limited by your start battery, as the current passes through that battery, in order to power the DC-DC and hence charge the LiFo batteries? I presume you limited the DC-DC to 30 amps, because that way you save load on your alternator? Cheers Douglas
Yes, this DC charger is easy on the alternator and really is the secondary charge method. Between solar and a bit of engine here and there, we "never" have think about the batteries SOC. In a marina we don't even turn on the battery charger because all inverter loads are 0, and solar keeps the lithium at 90-100%
Does your (solar connected) MPPT shut down or disconnect in the case of over-voltage to your LIFEPO4 bank? Alternatively, does the LIFEPO4 BMS shut down the batteries if over-voltage from the MPPT? Does the MPPT shut down if the BMS shuts down? @@TheFosterJourney
Why didn’t you put more of the components (like the DC/DC charger) into the battery compartment under the settee and instead installed them under the Nav station with your 4th Lithium battery? It looks like there is plenty of room.
The DC/DC charger needs room to breathe. And the extra room in the compartment is reserved for a few future components.
Hello, what type of wood and glue did you use to put the devices on? Does it ages well?
It's unfinished pine using 4200 adhesive. The box is dry, so the wood should last decades. And the adhesive is holding strong after 8 months. Not sure how long it lasts though 🤷
Would all of the new batteries not fit where the old lead acid batteries were located?
Yep. The original plan was to get two 200AH 4d batteries but they were a half-inch too wide. 🤷♂️ Now we use the original spot for the AGM starter battery and bulk food storage.
Link for Lithium Battery Charger? (Was the black one just for the first fix of the low charge on the Lithium and that was replaced by the Victron and not used again?? Is the Victron DC-DC the only thing charging the Lithium through the Yamar or Shore?
Thanks for the questions! We're going to add them to our blog post with thorough answers. Here's the short answers:
.. the black charger is a backup 20amp Lithium charger we can use whenever needed off shore power or generator.
.. DC-DC charger works off the Yanmar, Shore Power, and the Generator. It's the main workhorse besides our solar.
Here's the charger link amzn.to/3KuZ58j
@@TheFosterJourney Thank you for answering so many of my questions. We are making the move to Lithium and are trying to see as many installations as possible before we spend money only to find we purchase all the wrong stuff.
@@benkanobe7500 Gotcha! It's a great move. .
Great video, but it drives me crazy hearing people call an INSTALLATION (NOUN) an "enstol" (misspelled verb). e.g. I will gladly help you install your batteries, but when the installation is finished I expect a free beer! ;-)
Must be a colloquial thing ... The verb is commonly used as a noun in our area. Not just in boating. "Just finished my palapa install" "We're wrapping up the fire pit install" etc
So you have a power wire feeding from the AGM into the DC/DC Charger?
Yes, 6 gauge.
Search *How to add chapters to RUclips video* 0:19
Thanks for the reminder about chapters...I just added them! Cheers!
Do u know where can get a awesome grimper for terminal
There are some crimpers for greater than 6 gauge for a few hundred bucks...but the one in the video that I used is only 20 bucks amzn.to/3yHknI3
Is there a quality brand in crimper
Read my response, about six responses above. A good article on terminal connection. And the recommendation for a heavy duty battery cable crimper that I used.
If you have lead acid batteries and add one lithium battery all wired together will cause problems
Volts are volts, so the battery chemistry doesn't matter to the dc system, but mixing the chemistries would be detrimental to the lifespan of the batteries because different chemistries charge differently. That's why our AGM is separate from the positive side of the system.
why not use a victron Buck-Boost DC-DC Converter ?
The Orion charger provides programming for the specific voltages and time frames for charging various battery chemistries along with a few other charging parameters that let me tailor it to my specific system.
@@TheFosterJourney which is exactly what the buck boost provides but can also limit output current flow which your orion cant do.
@@ysesq that's cool. Does it limit voltage in charging stages?
@@TheFosterJourney yes its fully programmable
@@ysesq That's nice. It sounds like a great DC converter with high output. The bluetooth connect and charge profiles are probably the main difference between the two devices from a user standpoint.
Why did you choose the non-isolated DC-DC charger?
The non-isolated charged shares a common negative. In my boat the negative is shared between banks, and ultimately tied together at the keel. The isolated charger would be if your source battery and the target battery have completely separate negative grounding bus.
At 22:32. Victron Smart Sensor on the lithium battery shows 13.33 volts. Rebel lithium battery shows 13.54 volts. Did you figure out why the Victron is reading 0.2 volts low? Your test question for the day. ;-) (Just FYI, I don't know the answer, but it appears the Smart Sensor is not very accurate.)
The Rebel bluetooth is made of 4 cells, and that readout is an average for the 4 cells. The Victron is getting a read on the terminals, which tie into the other batteries, so it's more of (but probably not exactly) an average on the four-battery bank. I could be wrong, but that's where I think the slight discrepancy is - not to mention the +/- in the measurement tools themselves.
@@TheFosterJourney If those batteries are connected via cables, then they should equilibrate to identical voltage. I think your Victron unit has a problem. Our measurement errors are 0.01-0.02 volts, not 0.2 volts.
Did you call your missus by the wrong name??
🤔 did that happen, lol. About where in the video?
@@TheFosterJourney 31:48? High fives and you call her Livvy instead of Nancy?
@@scottpatterson8289 🤣🤣 sure did! That's Olivia's nickname, happens all the time
Libby! er... Nancy. 🤦🏻♂
😉🤣