Alicent Hightower Is The Only One Worth Rooting For In House Of The Dragon
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- Alicent Hightower is one of the key players in the Dance of the Dragons, the Targaryen civil war that was the beginning of the end for the house of the dragon. Although no one has clean hands in this conflict, Alicent and House Hightower are arguably the best faction to root for when HBO's adaptation of Fire & Blood hits the small screen in August.
Content of This Video:
00:00 Intro
01:55 How Viserys Started A Civil War & How Alicent Tried To Stop It
06:48 Breaking Succession Rules Vs. Changing Them
11:21 Alicent Was Left With Only Bad Options
12:40 Conclusion 
Развлечения
7:07 Did you mean queen regnant?
If I was talking about Rhaenyra then yes, LOL although it is not at all helpful that regent and regnant are such similar words.
Rhaenyra would never be the queen regent. Since she was the heir. She would only be queen regent if her father still alive was unable to rule and decree that she would rule in his stead. The heir become the ruler of the seven kingdoms upon the sovereign death. Not the king or queen regent
And the queen or king consort of the deceased king or queen become the queen or king dowager
So in absolute no situation Rhaenyra would be made a regent
She would be Queen period
@@HillsAliveYT Rhaenyra would never be the queen regent. Since she was the heir. She would only be queen regent if her father still alive was unable to rule and decree that she would rule in his stead. The heir become the ruler of the seven kingdoms upon the sovereign death. Not the king or queen regent
And the queen or king consort of the deceased king or queen become the queen or king dowager
So in absolute no situation Rhaenyra would be made a regent
She would be Queen period
@@feliperea3271 not regent, regnant.
@@feliperea3271 not "queen period", queen regnant. Queen period is just the wife of the ruling king.
Even if Alicent doubted that Rhaenyra was ruthless enough to kill her children to secure her place on the throne, there could be no doubt that her husband Daemon possessed that degree of ruthlessness.
well said
@@rouskeycarpel1436 you don't get it. viserys triggered the dance. even if alicent and her kids went into hiding and withdrew their claim, it would still exist. their existence would pose a threat to the blacks. the blacks would hunt them until they all were dead so that no potential rebellions would arise. alicent chose to fight for her family's right to live essentially.
@@rouskeycarpel1436 ty
the outcome was one of the few where karma had its justice. Fuck Alicent
Viserys should have never married Allicent and undermined his daughter’s claim after naming her heir.
@@gamma00crucis I don't think they would do that if Alicent looked for a real friendship in Rhaenyra that would be a barrier against Daemon.
Because she had 3 sons before marry Daemon I really doubt she would accetp her uncle killing her sibilings and her children. However Alicent fucked up that. by making her kids hate their older sisters and her kids.
If the targaryan house was united no matter what people say they would be safe because they had fucking dragons and a lot them. As much as people would hate a woman in throne she and he family have power to bank that.
I guess sonner of later could have been a fight inside the family if they became too big too, but they could also split around. Some going to other cities or even to Essos make a place form themselves
I think we can all agree that Viserys is clearly the problem in all of this and that Rhaenys should have been made queen in the first place
A big problem is that nobody really mentions is that Viserys has told Rhaenyra about aegons dream which needs to be kept secret as much as possible and if we're being honest Aegon the 2nd doesn't seem right in the head.... mans wanking out of a window in the middle of the day.... Rhaenyra has actually been part of the small council for many years and seems like she would be a good queen. So viserys decision isn't as bad as its made out to be in my opinion.
I disagree. While Viserys was King the realm had peace and prosperity. He produced many heirs, which was his duty. If all these heirs who were adults had come to him while he was still alive and had a plan that would have ensured a peaceful transition when he died, he'd have gladly endorsed it. Can't really blame him if all of his heirs, or the ones who mattered, were spoiled ingrates who turned on each other and became kin slayers shortly after he died. Did he set that example, is that what he'd have done or wanted? You can argue that he was a fool but why was he a fool? Because he believed these people could behave like a family and share all the lands, honors, wealth and titles that he left for them, which should've been enough for any family, to make all of them happy on that level.
@@mikedeck8381 he idolized rheanyra while teaching her absolutely nothing. Never punished her. So she became spoiled and very arrogant, power seeking. She thinks she has the birthright so she must be the queen, while not realizing she herself made her claim totally unstable by producing bastard sons and villinaizing allicent. Also by not wanting to marry and laughing at her lords, who she counts on to help her come to war. Sadly, she was a teen, young woman, she didnt know. Her father should have taught her, but didnt. Allicent was taught by her father thats why she can play the game better
Rhaenys wasn’t even smart enough to kill the Greens with her dragon so no.
@@lightschunk Rhaenys was right not to kill them since what good would it have done. Rhaenyra, who was the rightful heir, didn't even know her dad was dead at that point, and Rhaenys blasting down the royal family in front of the public would make her not only a kinslayer but an enemy of the state all while she'd be trying to get the news to Rhaenyra about her father and now siblings deaths so that she could come claim her spot. Also the greens still had supporters, so that would have ended in more war too.
I truly believe the turning point was Aemond losing his eye at Driftmark. The king didn’t do anything about his son losing his eye. Instead he doubled down on his favoritism of Rhaenyra. Rhae marrying Daemon didn’t help matters. That showed Alicent with absolute surety that Rhaenyra will indeed try and go after her children.
It's truly funny to see anti greens saying Alicent poisoned her children's minds to resent Rhaenyra, Viserys and Daemon. They saw it themselves and they're pass the age of not understanding situations. They watched their father ignore their disabled brother and are more enraged for their half sister's rumors.
@@scorpioj3 those rumors are truth. The gaslighting is insane with Rhaenyra.
Aemond was always the quiet kid, even baby Luke was bullying the shit out of him his whole life and they really bullied him hard with the pig scene and they were trying to force him to ride it etc lol.
Aegon and jace and Luke ruined his life
@@jjh2456 - I wouldn't say "turning point" but rather, "the point of no return." But other than that I agree with your logic. Viserys should have been whuppin' ass all night. All the kids should've gotten an ass-whuppin for fighting, but Rhaenyra's kids should've gotten a second ass-whuppin for pulling a deadly weapon on family. Rhaenyra should've gotten pimp-slapped for trying to have her brother questioned. But Viserys did nothing.
If anything it told Otto that there was no talking sense into Viserys and that he would have to prepare to make his move upon Viserys' death which he did.
Can I also point out the double standard of fans not begrudging Ned and Stannis for not wanting to marry Sansa and Shireen to Joffrey and Tommen because they would be used as political hostages (Sansa was already so) against their fathers, yet when Alicent didn't want to marry Helaena to Jacaerys she's the "power hungry bitch"?
Yeah I'm surprised that a lot of people missed this subtext too, marrying your child to someone whose claim is likely going to be disputed is essentially offering them up as a hostage if/when shit goes sideways, and for Alicent it's a doubly dangerous deal because she would be marrying her daughter in a show of support towards someone's claim that is going to be in direct conflict with her own son's claim if anyone starts pushing the Jace/Luke bastard issue.
I honestly thought Rhaenrya was trying to piggy back off of Helaena's claim, kinda like how Otto suggested marrying Rhaenrya to Aegon or Rhaenrya setting up Jace and Luke with their Velayron cousins. It would really only benefit her and probably make Alicent even more paranoid about her children's safety. Don't know why people called it a peace offering.
Yes, is exactly the same Point to Helaena.
I can understand why Alicent didn't want to marry her kids to Rhaenyra's. She probably assumed that after Viserys died than Rhaenyra would be exiled for having kids that obviously weren't her husband's. Obviously with hindsight if Alicent just married her daughter to Rhaenyra's son the dance wouldn't have happened but then the profecy wouldn't have been fulfilled because John and Danereys wouldn't have been born.
@@Careless-sv6cf the dance would’ve been postponed to Jace’s reign because those lords will not accept a bastard on the throne.
“YOU ARE THE CHALLENGE! YOU ARE THE CHALLENGE, AEGON! SIMPLY BY LIVING AND BREATHING!!”
Viserys saying he expects Rhaenyra's eldest son to be king after her isn't a problem in itself, since her oldest son is also her oldest child. What annoys me is that Rhaenys actually does have a stronger claim to the throne than Viserys, seems like she would be a better queen than him, but Viserys is made king over her specifically because he's a man, and then he turns around and makes Rhaenyra his heir over Aegon while Rhaenys is still alive
The lords voted Viserys in. The King did not make that decision specifically because he refused to anger the lords, therefore he called council in harrenhal and let the lords vote. Viserys did not care what the lords thought, that is the difference.
@@spoons250 So Westeros itself is ultimately responsible for the Dance.
How interesting.
@@concept5631 democracy strikes again lmao at how everyone was get philophical about how got was a criticism of monarchism lol
@@wizardmongol4868 I mean,
ASoIaF doesn't exactly paint monarchism in a good light
@@concept5631 nothing is painted in a good light its supposed to greyish black tbh
Pretty hilarious how the show clearly wants you to root for rhaenyra. They changed it so rhaenyra is the one who offers the marriage to Alicents son but alicent sees it as desperate and turns her down. Lol
Did you read the book? Alicent is worst in the book! Lmaooo they made her so more sympathetic
@@JL_Lux Worse than book Rhaenyra ? Impossible .
Rhaenyra son is a bastard. His claim will always be question, marrying Heleana to him would be a dumb move
I thought show was just about the surviving Targaryen bloodline. Martin favors house Targaryen and it is reneryah bloodline that sits throne a few more years. The high tower targaryen bloodline fizzles. Also books are from maester perspectives which when it comes to people I do not trust because maesters are biased to people and gate keep information exchange. I don't think there's anything wrong with making characters sympathetic in show because show is supposed to show true version of story and all is relative, I still see reneryah and alicent is horrible and I don't like alicent in books or show, to me it's almost same same. The only only overall problem is other characters are more complex than most Targaryen but we arnt supposed to hate that house, so I assume there's a tough balance on characterization. Although I always thought the less desirable traits were caused by the dragon blood
@@stormbringer2840 yes. The 22 year old Alicent starts plotting war to kill/overthrow her 12 year old step-child. She flat out says that Rhaenyra's children are lesser human beings compared to her own sons and their deaths shouldn't matter anyways as they were bastards. The dance was Alicent's fault, not Rhaenyra's, Rhae went mad after the death if her children.
I think that viserys should've married aegon to rhaeynra (sorry that's probably spelled wrong) as alicent suggested.
But he didn't because aegon and rhaeynra didn't like each other.
But then he proceeded to force both of them to marry people that they didn't want to be with anyways 🙄
He's the number one person responsible for the dance in my opinion
Exactly !!! Viserys is the cause of all these problems . Moreover, since , he had not intention of having an another heir outside Rhaenerys he should not have married Alicent or anyone in the first place !
@@lakaperse6995 THANK YOU! I'm still confused as to how, HOW remarrying to have *more* children made any sense to him!
@@lakaperse6995 Rhaenyra being his only heir doesn’t matter. He has a duty to the crown and to his family to have more children regardless. Spares, if you will. Spares that he can use to form alliances, replace Rhaenyra if anything were to happen, and continue to make more Targaryens that they can marry to each other.
No that wasn’t the problem, the problem was that ageon wasn’t of age to marry( he was like 2). The king didn’t name him heir because when renearya was named heir she before argon was born
@@urmominc904 The spare in that situation was supposed to be Daemon !!!!
It's funny how everyone compares Alicent to Ceresi when Rhaenyra is the one who (1) has an incestuous relationship with a close relative (2) has illegitimate children that she passes off as being legitimate even though the children clearly favor their true father (3) sleeps with a member of the king's guard (4) cares little for the common folk (5) wants to be her father's successor but is constantly undermined and overlooked because of her gender (6) will eventually become Queen of Memes. Ceresi memes are always welcome.
I wonder if F&B is George Martin's way of saying "this is how ASOIAF COULD have gone if it had a different ending". If Daemon and Rhaenyra got together in F&B, maybe he's testing the waters to see if Jon and Daenerys should/should not end up together in the books. The internet seems a lot more accepting of uncle/niece and unwitting aunt/nephew incest today than back when Martin first started writing the books...
People are so blind to this, I’m so tired of this show and its fandom
Well the one thing Cersi and Alicent have tommie molar are the demon spawns so you can’t over look that. Both are bad mothers
House Lannister is of faith of the seven, house Targaryen isnt every claim they have is by the right of conquest. Keep up.
Lol, Allicent raised Aegon, she doesn't have much to brag about either.
@@STARK0181 yep. First born monster, just like Joffrey
Through social media, I've discovered that I am in the minority of people watching the show that actually sympathizes with Alicent's side. But to fair, the showrunners/writers have been trying very hard to paint Rhaenyra as the Protag and Alicent as the Antag through personality and character dialogue that doesn't appear in the books. But if you take away all the dialogue and just analyze what each character has been DOING, then Rhaenyra is the obvious problem of the series not Alicent. She just keeps making naive mistake after naive mistake. These are not the actions of a selfless ruler. They are the actions of a carnal predator. She values her personal desires with the men she is involved with over what she is supposed to be doing as heir to the iron throne. She has endangered herself, her lawful husband and now 3 childrens lives because she cannot control herself. Also, if she really cared about keeping a stable household, she would have long since abdicated her position as heir to her brother Aegon. But all Targaryens, including Rhaenyra, have a power lust they can't put aside for the realm sake. That, combined with Alicent basically being a cornered fox, led to the "Dying of the Dragons". Assassins, battles, and dragons killing other dragons.
And think of every terrible crime Westeroes has a law for and Daemon has broken it. The show depicts him with no redeeming qualities. Rhaenyra actually shows empathy at times. That is absent from Daemon who murdered innocents because it inconvienced him.
I heard that the novel's portrayal of Alicent is a lot worse. But I could be wrong.
@@juanitajones6900 Alicent was a worse person & more calculating. She tried to defuse the situation several times before the *B&C* incident...
I honestly don't think the showrunners have painted Rhaenyra as the protagonist and Alicent as the antagonist. Imo Alicent and several of the other greens are more sympathetic in the show than the book and the blacks are slightly less sympathetic here. The problem is that most audiences are projecting modern western values on this so they can't understand Alicent's position and think that its fine Rhaenyra is doing whatever she wants because she's a "girlboss". I actually saw people acting like Rhaenyra is some kind of hero and lgbtq ally for the whole Laenor thing and they ignore that her and Daemon had an innocent guy killed so they could marry.
Did you read the book? Alicent is worst in the book lmaoooo the show runners did a good job making her someone just doing what she’s told.
Martin himself says show is true and books are told by maesters. So added dialogue is what they actually did do. Fans of alicent should love her in the show. And all is relative. She's actually the exact same in the show and the books because objective things about the character don't change. In either case it shows you can't go half in, you are either all in or all out. Personally I want to believe alicent did some stuff for smart reasons because too much fear makes one a coward, I get it she loves her kids but she could have done more too. If I was in her shoes I'd hate to say I'd try harder to get husband to listen to me or do the manipulation thing when it was for best of everyone, her people pleasing and fear leads her to think she is justified even if isn't. But I'm pro rhenyese so
I would also add an additional point: Rhaenyra's children make her claim especially shaky. Anyone with two brain cells could see her "Velaryon" sons were obvious bastards, and unfit to sit the throne. Therefore, Rhaenyra had to protect not only her own claim, but theirs too. Therefore, Rhaenyra or Jaecerys after her, was going to have to kill Aegon and his brothers. They were jerks, but their claim to the throne was rock-solid compared to Rhaenyra's. (And being married to a psychopath like Daemon made Rhaenyra only look worse to the Westerosi lords.)
It's part of what makes Rhaenyra such an interesting figure for me. Because especially compared to Rhaenys, she started in pole position. She was recognized as heir, she had the backing of many lords... But she consistently misplayed her hands and failed to establish the kind of strong political base that she needed for her claim to be unassailable.
@@MenwithHill exactly
To be fair to Rhaenyra, Daemon absolutely groomed her from a young age but yeah she could of made a lot of smarter choices.
But isn’t the whole bastard issue resolve the moment the late king and house veleryon both claimed Rhaneryas sons as their grandchild/son ?
And if jaceherys and Helena got married, Jacehrys claims wouldn’t be questioned anymore.
They are Targaryen through her not her husband so it doesn’t even matter
I will always stan Alicent Hightower. It’s very apparent she didn’t want any of this and everything she’s done thus far is justifiable. If Rhaenyra tried to even act like she wanted the throne and prove that she was serious about it rather than mothering bastards maybe she’d be taken a little more seriously, but she doesn’t help herself whatsoever - only adding to Alicent’s frustration.
Yes, but Viserys' ascension was a break of the rules too.
Rhaenys was Aemon's only child and Aemon was Jaehaerys' first trueborn son, so she's the one that should've ascended, because "daughter before brother" is the rule of succession.
This I agree with! Rhaenys SHOULD have been queen, and would have been had Jaehaerys the "Wise" not wimped out. And Rhaenys's first trueborn son was Laenor who married Rhaenyra, yes? Seems a no-brainer which couple should be reigning tbh.
@@sarahvernall408 OMG, I've been saying this since episode 1...
True, but I think that Jaegaerys' reasoning was that skipping over Rhaenys was necessary for retroactively explaining his own succession ahead of his nieces
Well Jaehaery's wife was pissed about it. She agreed with you so much that they where separated.
Viseyrys did say at rhaneyras wedding that her oldest child “regardless of gender” will be her heir
It is similar to Aegon IV legitimizing all his bastrads and screwing with the entire realm...
There are certain things that should not be touched...
Viserys being King, his first responsibility should be towards the realm rather than his daughter...
That's a double edge sword though, right? A good king doesn't necessarily make a good father. And unparented, spoiled, entitled royal children is a recipe for disaster. ESPECIALLY when those children hold was some sort ancient blood magic. Jaehaerys was not a good father, neither was Aegon l and they were excellent kings. Yet, their failures as fathers led to a ripple effect that harmed the kingdom. Jaehaerys in much smaller ways but it was there as we see in the show. I could go on with the Targ generational trauma and how it's the cause for every large-scale tradegy in Westeroes. But yeah. Even if, Viserys put all his energy into the realm, I doubt it would have lead to any good in the long run.
I like your analysis, it's very nuanced. I get the impression that many people fail to understand Alicent's perspective and see this as a "rightful queen got her throne stolen by evil schemer" narrative, while it is much more complex than that.
I mean im not even sure where everyone gets rightful queen for the princess. The king and realm clearly wanted a male heir from the kings first marriage and got one from his second. The princess also isnt exactly queenly with her strive to break duty when it conflicts with her own goals. Just saying there isnt a lot that justifies her as the rightful queen outside of being the oldest child and from the original marriage
Wow, the Targs are always their own worst enemy. Great breakdown of this part of in world history.
They really are, at this point I'm baffled that any other Targs were named Viserys. I'm definitely excited to see Olivia Cooke's take on Alicent as well, the Hightowers are definitely one of my favorites so seeing them adapted to the screen is going to be sick.
We all are our own worst enemy
I really wanted to “um actually” you and provide a bunch of good examples but I honestly can’t. You’re right. They absolutely are.
Targs are evil
@@HillsAliveYT To be fair the Plantagenants tried to name an heir to the throne John. He just died before he could become King.
First off let me say THANK YOU . Regardless of if you’re team Green or Black. it just feels nice to FINALLY hear someone in the fandom express how I view the situation. The rules of succession in Westeros minus Dorne; was already set for thousands of years. And the “icing on the cake” if you would was the Great Council of 101 AC; which is the only reason Princess Rhaenys was named the “Queen Who Never Was”. So King Viserys l naming Princess Rhaenyra his heir was not only a slap in the face to years of established laws but also to his cousin the Princess Rhaenys! Just my opinion. I know I’ll get looked at as a patriarchal bastarddd but whateves ahaha 🤣
No I totally get it and agree. I definitely think that the laws of succession SHOULD allow women to inherit rather than men, and Dorne is proof that it can work out just as easily as male primogeniture does, but if Viserys wanted his eldest daughter to inherit then he needed to make that the rule for EVERYONE. Or at the very least make that the rule for inheritance of the Iron Throne. And yes, Alicent did some AWFUL things during the Dance, but she does not seem to have been awful beforehand, so the fact that she is largely villainized when her husband and stepdaughter united to completely screw her over in a literally illegal way for no good reason totally sucks for her.
@@HillsAliveYT beautifully said, couldn’t agree more ! Dorne has always been the GOAT; in so many ways . You definitely gained a new subscriber with this one !
@@TheeSecondSon Awesome! I look forward to nerding out with you and everyone else in the HotD pandemonium!
@@HillsAliveYT This 100%!And even if Rhaenyra at the time was best suited to rule and she had the best intentions she royaly screwed herself over. First by having bastards who were obviously not Valyrians to everyone(seriously if she wanted to screw Harwin Strong so bad she could have done that while also having a Valyrian looking dude impregnate her if Laenor couldn't do that)then by reacting with volence whenever that was brought up and fucking off to Dragon Stone without thinking of the consequences that might result then on top of that she marries Daemon - the most unfit to be royal consort and process to have very onviously Valrian babies with him potentially causing infighting between her own children in the future(there's only so much the Strongs could deny the truth and even if they themselves didn;t rise up against Aegon or Viserys what about their kids-seirously what a mess).From eraly on she shown signs of oing what she wants without thinking of the conseqeunces but really Viserys is also at fault for enabling that behaviour. Rhaenrya as whole is giving me Mary Queen of Scots vibes from her failure as quene to her horribale taste in men.
This might be unpopular but I feel for Alicen's kids.I'm not excusing the awful thigns they did but Viserys was a horribale father to them - Aegon never really stood a chance to be a capable king because for sme reason his father didn't think raising his other kids to be competent,capable leaders was important.Honestly even if they had ended up becoming good people I wouldn't b;ame them if they felt resentful towards Viserys and Rhaenyra.For all the tak about Rhaenyra being betrayed by them, etc. she never mad ena effort to be close to them(it's ratehr telling that she always refereed to them as ''half brothers''')so why would she expect them to bend the knee or believe she would spare their lives?
IDK
@@babause15 Yes agreed. I can actually see Rhaenyra's side as well and will dive into that at some point, but sincerely, if she really wanted the throne then she did EVERYTHING she possibly could to make that the most difficult goal as hard to obtain as it could be.
I'm not super surprised that fan reaction is so one-sided because almost everyone loves the Targaryens and Rhaenyra is a dragon-riding queen while Alicent is from a less beloved and less magical house, but I find it a little weird because GRRM does seem to go out of his way to make both sides the bad guy in a lot of instances. I mean, Rhaenyra could have proven herself to be a great leader, or fought for all women to have more power, but her desire for the throne seems to be entirely about herself, and she seems to think that she deserves to be prioritized simply because she's more important, which for me is hard to root for.
Thank you for being so controversial, yet SO brave. I can already hear the keyboards clattering to explain why Alicent is the devil incarnate for opposing Rhaenyra’s Girl Boss Agenda from people who willfully ignore how incredibly complex this issue actually is for both sides, and especially Alicent. I just watched your other video about Catelyn and Jon’s relationship and her anxiety about a succession crisis, and this entire situation justify’s Catelyn’s fears even more. There seems to be a constant theme in the ASOIAF/GOT fandom about the lack of grace for female characters who have a realistic understanding of The System and try and work within it- because the alternative leads to catastrophe for everyone else.
Thanks! And I totally agree, people seem to judge the “weak” female characters more harshly than anyone else, but I tend to be more interested in how they navigate the story more than anyone else because they can’t just take whatever they want by force and oftentimes have to work around whatever everyone else wants first.
That's an interesting strawman you've constructed there.
This 100%
@@HillsAliveYT Omg, actually this was even shown more clearly in the last episode of HOD when Alicent accused of Rhaenyra doing whatever she wants. It looks that she learned duty from her dad, and the contrast between him and Daemon, and Alicent who was impacted by Daemon with Alicent.
@@danielbroome5690 and is this strawman in the room with us now?
Saying a bastard shoudnt inherit the throne as:
Ned Stark: upstanding citizen
Alicent: Jealous bitch.
One thing that is interesting is the reflection of today's mentality in the Fandom, like the younger teen fans allways satanise alicent who did her duty to her family and hunsband in the show but defend rhaenyra sleeping around and having bastards inherit the throne in contrast to alicents children.
Meanwhile older fans even tough they don't like alicent... they kinda still understand where she comes from.
Spot-on.
Rheanyra would have brought house Targaryen and westeros closer to the norms and values of the 21st century then Alicent and the Hightowers would ever do. She changed the Red Keep to the Vatican in 6 years imagine if she had 20 more years.
@@yusufraage8554 Lol no she wouldn't, Rhaenyra isn't progressive nor is she a feminist. The only thing she cares about is Targaryen superiority and her needs only.
I’m young and I’m the way TEAM GREEN😂
@@yusufraage8554 No Rhaenyra is only interested in herself. In the book she even takes the estate of 2 Ladys away and gives it to men simply because they are women. She rules for half a year and does a p*ss poor job. She isn't a feminist, she is just selfish and wants all freedoms without granting them to others.
This is another reason why I love dorne the eldest child inheritance regardless of sex
I don’t think either of them were wrong. Rhaenyra and Alicent’s Aegon both had strong claims to the throne. I think Alicent is a bit more justified, not because she a stronger claim, but because she tried to avoid war by suggesting a marriage. I think a betrothal (if not between Rhaenyra and Aegon, than between their children) would have been the best option.
Like you said, there’s no moral justification for war, but backed into a corner with her children’s lives potentially on the line, I can sympathize with Alicent.
I’m still Team Black tho lol
Why would only Alicent's children been endangered and not Rhaenyra herself or her children?
@@juanitajones6900 I never said they wouldn’t be? But Alicent’s son has the stronger claim (sons ALWAYS inherit over daughters) and would have less of a reason to go after Rhaenyra’s children. I’m not saying they wouldn’t be in danger had the Green’s won, but the danger would not be as prevalent
They both propose marriage
@@juanitajones6900 because Alicent position is already faint by not being a Targryan, no one is going after her right now because the king is still alive, when he dies and her children don’t have a claim of the throne that weakness her & her children completely and puts her and her kids at danger for people taking revenge out on her and her kids, because without the protection of being the ruling king, they’re just simply extra/spear royal, if an attack was taken against them they don’t have any really protection and the consequences of the attack on them will not be as sever as an attack on ruling royal
Rhaenyra did not offer that marriage deal to avoid war or out of the goodness of her heart. She did it because the rumours of her children's illegitimacy was becoming more public knowledge. It was entirely self serving
Thank you, i thought I was the only one who hates the fact that she's singled out as the villain... She doesn't lie, kill, she defends her children and she's far more honorable than Rhaenyra...
Her actions are gonna cost her everything
@@katytyrell406 no one is able to win this, its clear, the problem was caused not by Alicent, but by Viserys
Finally a video that doesn't paint Alicent as a one dimensional cartoon villain!I always found how the fandom would idolize characters like Daemon and paint Rhaenyra as the suffering heroine that was betrayed by her evil step mother while Alicent was villified to the extreme for doing what any other noble woman would have done in her shooes.I'm not trying to excuse her actions but we have no POV of hers to know how she truly felt becoming a queen and giving birth to 4 healthy chidlren while Viserys did nothing for them pretty much.Seriously fans would rather paint her as this evil seductress stereotype and place the blame on the Dance entriely on her(she was soooo power hungry you all she was willing to sacrifice her children to get the throne?*roll eyes*)then blame Viserys who married and fathered more kids.And when you point Rhaenyra's own flaws and paranoia boradering on tyranical behaviour it's always ''Rhaenyra did nothing wrong?It's just prpaganda against her?Don't you you feel sorry about how se lost her children that excuses her horrific behaviour and incompetency!''.The double stnadards are really something in this fandom.
LMFAO yeah, the idea that anyone could love Daemon for being such a badass but hate Alicent for being an evil witch is beyond me. Honestly, one of the things that I actually appreciate with this conflict is that everyone is justified in some way and everyone becomes a villain in some way in their quest to fight for their own position and survival. And I can't imagine how frustrating it would have been to provide that many good heirs to the king and not just have Viserys not care, but for him to in a certain sense actively throw you and all of your kids under the bus just because he liked his daughter more.
And the notion of her as an evil seductress is VERY weird to me, I mean she's a literal teenager when she marries Viserys so the presumption that she was some femme fatale is an idea that I always attributed to the misogyny of those who are supposed to be writing these histories down rather than based in actual reality. Not to mention, if she truly was this master manipulator angling for as much power as possible then you'd think she'd have been able to convince her notorious pushover husband to follow the standard Westerosi rules of succession at the very least, like she can't have been THAT snakey and politically Machiavellian if she couldn't even accomplish her most basic goal after well more than two decades of marriage.
Exactly! I honestly feel sorry for Alicent’s since she did everything that was expected of her and she still got screwed over while Rhaenyra never had to deal with the consequences of her actions because she was always protected by her father plus she didn’t have to deal with all the rumours about her kids due to her self isolation at Dragonstone(until V permanently ordered her to stay which is another level of stupidity).
Also the level of justification some of the fandom are using in order to somehow exonerate Daemon(and Rhaehyra condoning his actions)from Blood and Cheese never fails to amaze me. He’s the badass and her and R are a power couple trying to go against the evil power hungry Alicent .🙄
I have to give it to her though the way she hacedles herself during the Dance was pretty BAMF while Rhaenyra ended up being an incompetent mess while Alicent ended up loosing most of her family yet still kept her cool and remained somewhat stable that takes strength for sure yet the fandom always ignores what she lost. I honestly might end up rooting for the Greens in the show out of sheer spite hopefully the show will give them more dimensions plus compared to the Blacks(initially at least)they seem so dysfunctional which I love in characters,imo.😂
Yeah honestly I'll have to wait and see, one of the most interesting aspects of HotD for me is that there is so little characterization in F&B that I have no idea what the characters will be like once we see them IRL and I have no idea if my interpretations are even close to what they'll be like on the show. I expect to root for the greens simply because I like House Hightower and I really liked Olivia Cooke on Bates Motel, plus I tend to be drawn to the characters who don't have super overt powers that make gaining influence easy or straightforward, but for all I know she could be wildly unappealing and I could switch to Rhaenyra's team.
Yeah for sure. Honestly a war was always inevitable even if it didn’t happen immediately after V’s death. First because of Rhaehyra having bastards and who she married(Daemon had many enemies)but also the seeds were planted way before during Jaeherys’ reign when first he didn’t really view his daughter Daenerys as queen regnant then instead of following through with Rhaenys becoming queen like she should have as Aemon’s only heir he created the whole mess with the Great Council when it was pretty clear who the lords would choose. Rhaenys had Laenor by then but he was still potential heir through her line there’s now way the lords wouldn’t have found that threatening so of course they would choose sn incompetent fool like Viserys. If it wasn’t for Corlys threatening to go to war J would have probably skipped over Rhaenys again like he did the first time but since he knew this would surely lead to war he decided to do the council knowing the Velaryons can do nothing against that(too bad Alyssane was dead by then since I’m pretty sure she would have sided with R and there would have probably been no council).So yeah both J and V are trash and are the main ones responsible for the mess that happened. Targaryens truly are their worst enemies.
Viserys also had the nerve to accuse Alicent of being so ambitious as to put her on the throne by proopsing a match ebween Aegon and Rhaenyra which she might have been but dude why did you marry her in the first place when you never had the intention of changing your mind?!Also marrying Aegon and Rhaenyra could have solved a lot of issues but sure lets just paint A as power hungry bitch rther than trying to do the reasonabe thing.
Just to add I find it hilarious how when Daemon proposed for Hugh Hammer and Ulf the White to marry the daughters of traitors(lords who ahd sowrn to Rhaenyra but choose to conver to Aegon's side on the pain of death and then wanted to convert back to Rhaenyra but were tortured and killed)Rhaenyra choose Corlys' advice against doing that because that would apparently set a precedent where older daughters can inherit ahead of their brothers and the lords can't have that so Rhaenyra dimisses Daemon's advice so she can keep her allies support doing what was done to her in her eyes(usurping her right to rule).Like father like daughter thinking that the rules apply to everyone but them. No wonder none of the high born ladies would take in Rhaenyra in after her scape from King's Landing. You reap what you sow Rhaenyra(and Viserys!)!
And the thing with team Black is they're all ''Oh a queen regnant on the throne.yay,feminism fight for your britright Rhaenyra!''which great and all but Rhaenyra was never really fighting to set a precedent for women to rule she was fighting for the throne because Viserys had chosen her as his heir.It's not a situation like Dorne for example where a firstborn can inheirt no matter their sex. In a way Viserys massively screwed over Rhaenyra by not changing the inheritance lawas to be like in Dorne.
We also have to kepe in mind that Alicent initally did want to avoid going to war by sending peace offer but Rhaenyra rejected it and once Aemond killed Luke war was inevitable.
I think you need to give Jaehaerys I the shit he deserves, Aemon was Jaehaerys’s eldest son, his (only) daughter Rhaenys was passed over as was her son Laenor. Viserys came into power via male proximity (and selection), male primogeniture (Westeros’s standard) names Rhaenys or Laenor as heir, not Viserys. I’m not saying Viserys was a good king, he was an idiot, but I don’t see blaming Viserys for Jaehaerys’s precedent in this case.
Alysanne even broke with Jaehaerys over this decision, and Otto (as hand) putting forth his daughter after Aemma died is a pretty spicy abuse of power.
Yeah you're not wrong, Viserys is far from the only Targaryen to make a mess of succession and honestly Jahaerys deserves criticism for a lot more than just that, he might have been a good Targaryen ruler but he made a lot of mistakes and essentially got lucky that those mistakes didn't have massive immediate blowback like Viserys' did. And mostly I blame Viserys for that, that it was so obvious that he was creating a crisis and he just pretended it wasn't happening to the point that his death set things off like a bomb that was waiting to explode.
I'll be interested to see how all of the characters are portrayed in HotD though, like F&B is interesting but it's so vague and confusing when it comes to the actual personalities of all of these people, and the perspective of the faux writers of F&B obviously colors things quite a bit. Like I see Alicent as drawing considerable inspiration from Anne Boleyn, so that makes me question the whole narrative of her being some temptress viper and whether or not she was just pretty and smart and appealing and Viserys wanted her because of it.
@@HillsAliveYT Preston Jacobs has been doing a pretty interesting close read of F&B and makes a decent case for there being an anti-Valeryon bias to succession in this era. Given Rhaenys’ line is going to end up being ‘part black’ via Corlys I think it’s possible the show could be leaning into this interpretation.
I haven't watched it yet but that makes sense to me.
@@HillsAliveYT will be interesting to see the direction the show goes, Alicent looks to be suggested as a temptress, so it might end up a little flat. I do hope it’s more nuanced.
It’s hard to avoid that the Dance ended with Alicent winning the battle and losing the war; Targs lost dragons and her descendants didn’t even sit the Iron Throne.
@@kahare9565 Yeah definitely agree there, I'm very much hoping they are not trying to make her into Margaery number 2, especially since although I do love her they already made her into a really over-the-top seductress when she seems much more normal in the books.
Totes right about the Dance as well, although given how close to the sun they metaphorically flew, I think the fact that House Hightower managed to stay essentially in the position that they've always been in while the Targaryens ultimately self-destructed is a minor win, although Alicent obviously can't be credited for that.
I love this bold and bound to be controversial topic! I believe most fans are strongly in the Black camp when it comes to the Dance but has Hill's Alive shows, George makes it perfectly possible to present well-argued reasons for sympathizing and even cheering for Alicent and her Greens in this tragic internecine conflict. The ASOIAF content on this channel is so refreshing and stimulating and always gets the audience to explore new ways of understanding the ASOIAF universe. Specifically this essay can really enhance one''s enjoyment from reading Fire & Blood and I expect it will help TV viewers as well.
Yeah I definitely expect most fans to be team black as well, but I really hope the show is a little more even-keeled with it, because although the Dance was obviously a massive train wreck, there actually are comprehensible and valid thought processes on both sides of the war. I can see Rhaenyra's perspective because why would she just give up the most powerful position in the country for the sake of making other people's lives easier and literally giving that power to them, but I also fully get Alicent's perspective because were it not for Viserys' whims, her son would unquestionably be on the Iron Throne. I actually look forward to seeing the Dance adapted to screen because ultimately Alicent and Rhaenyra are both doing what is obviously in their best interest and, at least at the start, neither of them is a villain who deserved to be put on the back foot and forced to fight for the same position.
@@HillsAliveYT It wasnt Viserys whims, it was her own father, Otto, who suggested making Rhaenyra the heir because he didn't want Daemon to be the heir and the next king..
Eh it’s fanficition with flimsy reasoning
Rhanearya is a liar sooooo lmao
Yay! I don't love Alicent, but I don't hate her either (same with Rhaenyra). I could never understand why people hated her and I think it boiled down to "Rhaenyra is a girlboss and can do no wrong, and Alicent is a conniving b*tch who murders children" which is stupid because they both have their good and bad moments. I hope that the series doesn't take the fandom's route and make Alicent pure evil.
Also, screw Viserys and Jaehaerys for setting up this whole mess. Thank you for breaking Alicent and her reasoning down!
Yeah, I mostly ride for Alicent because I just think the Hightowers are cool as hell, but the perception of her as the villain and Rhaenyra as the hero is weird. One thing that I actually like about the Dance is that every major player there seems to be overtly villainous in one way or another, and I hope that the show doesn't shy away from that.
I always just honestly pitied her. While I’m more a Rhaenyra sympathizer, I honestly could never bring myself to hate Alicent like I could with so many other characters. I find her more tragic than anything else.
@@HillsAliveYT I appreciate your takes esp. the one on Catelyn.
I never thought Alicent was a villain but I think she's severely mislead. I think the Hightowers being technically correct in an unjust society doesn't make them right.
We can set aside(or justify with prophecy) the morality of a feudal monarchy but the sexism serves no purpose. Many women today think being forced into a relationship, forced to have sex, forced to have children without any say in the matter is ok and natural or God's will but it's not. That's Alicent.
It's not duty to the realm, its perpetuating the abuse that was done to you(a common and not at all evil side effect of abuse).
Teaching your son that as a man he's a better ruler than his older sister is another way of perpetuating that cycle.
Marrying her best friend's father makes sense. It's icky to me but your perspective really shines a light on the way in world society works. After that repairing the relationship like for real, truly backed Rhaenyra and raising her kids to respect women could've changed the realm for the better.
Also I think finding the most suitable gay man and having bastard kids seems to me like an understandable rebellion to an f'ed system.
Loving/marrying Daemon is icky but I have a theory about regal incest being like celebrities dating. Who else can understand you? Her only friend turnd out to only be there for clout(in her mind(specifically in the shows)). Also groomin..and another common side effect of abuse.
Ppl are correct about Daemon being a threat to Alicents kids but frankly he's a threat to Rhaenyra as well I guess MAYBE until their little sibling/cousins marry.
Viserys may just be grief stricken but I think he's ahead of his time and "changing the rules" is more of a slap in the face to Rhaenys and the lords who voted for him than pretending it's an outlier. I don't think he thought things would just go back to normal after the first coronated no qualifier Queen of Westeros. Especially with her having 5 friggen sons! Ironically he was right(again specifically in the shows) just off by a couple centuries.
Catelyn had way more to fear than Alicent. If she'd been more fiercely loyal to her friend and maybe had a female role model then idk this probably wouldn't be watchable content.
@@citrinariana Honestly if I was Alicent I would’ve acted the same : Rheanyra if anything else showed that she was unreliable and had no qualm in throwing others ( especially Alicent’s children ) under the bus if it suited her .
I don’t think your « revolt against unjust society » angle holds up honestly. Rhaenyra had no intention in abolishing the bastards laws or male primogeniture ones once in power , she just intended to be the exception to the rule because she was power hungry . It is THAT simple actually.
@@stormbringer2840 OK. I don't know that I'll engage with this comment well because I don't see any of what you're talking about in Rhaenyra.
Except that I also don't think she would've abolished bastard laws.
I think any threat to Alicent's children could be neutralized by her repairing the relationship before or as she's having kids and then raising them to think of women as their equals instead of bodies to use and that their male-ness doesn't make them superior.
I don't think your unreliable, power hungry Rhaenyra thing holds up or that any of this is simple
As per people on Reddit, many dislike Alicent because she is a traditional wife while Rhaeynra was a free spirit. As a teen Rhaenyra flaunted her lust, disrespected those who asked for her hand to the point of not even listening to them - one of them being of the Baratheon line, and who she later sent Luke to when she wanted to gain alliances. She was terrible politically.
As for Daemon, he smashed his wife’s head in with a rock. Enough said.
Allicent is just jealous of Rhaeneyra. She's no better than her morally.
@@STARK0181 Rhaeynra and Daemon killed an innocent man so that Rhaeynra could pretend it was her husband’s burnt body that was found. This way, hubby gets away and Rhaeynra is free to marry Daemon. So they killed an innocent man. Yes, it was Daemon who did it but she didn’t complain. They are lowlife scum.
@@cooltalktalks4944 Allicent was complicit in the deaths of both Lyonel and Harwin Strong. Allicent pardoned Sir Criston for his murder in order to secure his loyalty. Allicent enables and covers up all of Aegon's transgressions because she knows it will make her look bad, regardless of who gets hurt in the process.
Allicent isn't as devoted to "duty" , "tradition" and "justice" as she claims to be. The only difference is she uses her "trad wife " persona to be sanctimonious towards Rhaeneyra, while in reality , she's really no better.
@@STARK0181 you do make good points. However, this doesn’t exonerate Rhaeynra or Daemon.
@@cooltalktalks4944 No, it doesn't .
It was wrong for an innocent person to die, but their intentions weren't entirely selfish either. Because in the end Laenor set free to live openly as a gay man. It doesn't justify the death of an innocent, but I would argue those intentions are a step above Allicent's in her actions listed above.
Woke : Rhae Rhae Hot Girl Summer!! Yass!! Slay Kween!!
Bespoke : No more girlboss wardlords, Alicent is the only one worth supporting.
😂💚😂💚
This is an interesting perception.
I think the idea of the dance being inevitable really dismisses the aspects of actual politics. Viserys made Rhaenyra his heir decades before he died. Breaking the rules or not, there was plenty of time to cement and legitimize her position. If the king was uninterested, it would fall on the rest of the court to act. Paint Rhaenyra as an incarnation of the maiden or the mother, citr Targaryen exceptionalism or yes, change the rules for the next generation. It would also be in the interests of both parties to form some sort of alliance, be it through a hightower betrothal, making Aliscent or Aegon hand, or something else.
There were plenty of ways to avoid war.
Yeah, Viserys fucked everyone over by his lack of action. He could've avoided everything by simply deciding not to remarry, or reinstating Rhaenyra as heir publically just like her coronation after Aegon was born. He had around 20 years to act, and instead did nothing.
I absolutely love Alicent's character. She's fascinating, and I find her much more interesting than Rhaenyra
Nice take on Alicent's position! I actually quite like her as a character (love her name too lol, it just rolls off the tongue) and I think I have more sympathy for certain Green characters since the story is written to be almost ridiculously in favor of the Blacks. I mean all the Black allies are written to be amazing like the Starks, Blackwoods, Rhaenys, the Seasnake, Addam etc. while the Greens are almost all terrible like Criston, Aemond, Aegon II , Otto etc. So just to be contrary, I'm more interested in their side of the story! Also, I still find it weird that Viserys was so adamant about Rhaenyra being his heir when presumably he was fully expecting Queen Aemma to eventually provide him with a male heir, rendering his daughter pretty irrelevant. Well she didn't but Queen Alicent DID give him three sons so I'm still confused as to why Viserys didn't then recognize Aegon as his heir. What changed? Did he not believe his own sons good enough for the throne because of their non-Targaryen mother? But why should that matter considering Aemma herself had an Arryn father? And how is he forgetting that the only reason he is even on the Throne is because the Great Council decided boys come before girls in the succession? We'll see if the show addresses any of this.
Yeah I have no idea why Viserys was so obsessed with Rhaenyra being his heir, but the only real plausible explanation I can buy is that Aemma had that extra dose of Targ genes or something.
@@HillsAliveYT I feel that he also loved his first wife far more than he did Alicent, Rhaenyra is all he had left of his first love. Plus as King it's largely done to his choice, between the four, id say in the end Rhaenyra had the right of it. But still loved this take!
i think its as simple as he had already publicly anounced Rhaenyra as his heir, so changing that to Aegon after making the lords of the realm swear to honor Rhaenyras succesion would be a huge snub to his beloved daughter that he doted on, i think he just wanted to not dissapoint anyone
@@HillsAliveYT Its simple really. At least in the show, its guilt. Had his son with Aemma lived, I don't think he'd be that guilt ridden. Remorseful, yes, but not self loathing.
His blatant favouritism for Rhaenyra come from a place of irrationality. He knew how close she was to her mother and he feels that he took that away for nothing. In his mind, naming her his heir makes up for that, consequences be damned (if he could actually fathom the extent of those consequences).
@@RoreyG well, if you remember Otto Hightower also convinced him to do it because Otto didn't want Daemon getting the throne. Everything probably would have been alright if Viserys hadn't let Otto be the hand or if Otto hadnt influenced Alicent too much. He was the driving force for the dance happening. Rhaenys was different, no one swore allegiance to her but they did to Rhaenyra.
Finally an asoiaf channel that isn't incessantly against Alicent for superficial reasons.
I'm loving all of your ASoIaF video essays! Something I find truly tragic is how both of these women could have remained firm friends and allies had the world and society they lived in was different.
Agreed, it doesn't seem like their initial relationship was fake at all, and if they didn't live in a world where they sort of got all or nothing, things wouldn't have had to end how they did.
I love that your essays always make me consider a different point of view! If I was in Alicent’s position I think I would do the same thing to try and protect my family. It will be interesting to see how the tv show will portray this, based on the trailer I feel like Alicent is going to be portrayed more as a villain but who knows maybe I’ll be pleasantly surprised and they will write her in a more nuanced way
Thanks! And honestly I do see Alicent as a villain too, but I think really everyone involved with the Dance is villainous so I really hope the show plays it that way. And I'm in the same boat, again although Alicent does some horrendous stuff I can understand her thought process and appreciate that she actually tried to do something to avoid disaster.
after episode 1 i don't think she'll entirely be portrayed as a villain they're going to show the depth and complexities of her situation based on them showing her anxiety with picking at her fingernails and how timid she was
A well written conflict should make anybody thinking if I were in their position, I could or would do the same.
Alicant started a war that put her kids life’s in danger all because she was jealous and hated Rhaenyra. Then spread lies saying she would have them killed to diminish her claim. Definitely the last person you should root for.
@@Dy2g yep I can’t stand her and I’m suprised how many ppl are trying to come up with excuses for her. Rhaenyra literally does not want to harm Alicent or her children. If they all worked together, they’d be unstoppable. They have many dragons and no one can’t take down the house of the dragons besides themselves which is what Alicent is causing.
You're completely correct. I often hear people thinking Jon should end up Lord of Winterfell and Gendry (or Edric Storm in the books) with Storm's End, and they just don't understand how that would create a precedent that could lead to far more war down the line. Not only could a man being able to seat his bastard by a lowborn girl as his heir ruin his house, but his high born wife's father and brothers would go to war over her children's rights. Arranged marriages are the foundation of Westrosi society, not because parents are cruel and don't care about their children's happiness, but because without them the entire system would fall apart. The Dance of the Dragons proved this with Viserys thinking he could change the rules for his own daughter, but leave the law itself untouched. You're 100% right with your assessment, but I fear that the showrunners for this new series plan to make Alicent Hightower the OG Cersei Lannister. It's just a vibe I get.
Thanks! And I agree about the vibe although I hope I'm wrong. Obviously the system itself isn't fair, and it would be great if they did anything to make it more equitable, but to act as if what they actually chose to do wasn't putting a bunch of people in horrible, dangerous positions is absurd.
Edric will most likely be legitimised by Faegon and given lordship as a way of establishing loyalty in the storm lands as fir Jon snow I think it’s more likely he’ll be part of a regent council stepping in for Rickon as he’s to young to rule as lord allowing him the power and status of lordship if only temporarily.
well Edric actually make sense because he is the last Baratheon and his mother wasnt some peasant so its not THAT insulting, also the Stormlands Lords love him even more than Stannis
While I agree when it comes to Jon, I don’t see why Edric Storm shouldn’t be Lord of Storm’s End. Robert doesn’t have any trueborn children, and the only other trueborn Baratheon (Shireen) is almost certainly marked for death, so who else would it go to? There is precedent for bastards being legitimized for less.
@@sugarpearl9781
You misunderstand me. I'm cool with Edric Strom being Lord of Storm's End. He was acknowledged by Robert as his bastard, has a known, highborn mother, and he has the training. It's Jon and especially Gendry I take issue with. Gendry was never acknowledged as Robert's bastard. Robert likely didn't even know he existed, and his mother was lowborn. He was raised in the slums of fleabottom. There is nothing there the Stormland lords could respect.
I think the key thing about Rhaenras claim is that she’s the child of Viserys first wife. It’s a logical view that the children of the first wife come before the children of the second wife.
I don’t think Westerosi law works like that. Outside of Dorne, a legitimate son always inherits ahead of a daughter.
The only law Westeros has is which one is male. That's why the old show was full of cock jokes. Aegon II got the crown before Rhaenyra because he had a willie and she didn't.
Sure but that’s not how westerosi succession laws go, succession goes in order of eldest male first, then each male younger and then women, so female heirs are always if there are no male heirs at all.
She's still a woman tho and and in Westeros it doesn't work like that.
That doesn't matter at all. Usually the children of the first wife are simply older and therefore come first. But a son still comes before a daughter. Second wife or no.
I love your analysis of Alicent and it definitely made me think twice about her. This is what I love about ASOIAF: there is no good vs. evil. Both Alicent and Rhaenyra have legitimate reasons to claim the throne. It absolutely does not justify war and the bridge of incidents, but it is explainable how the Greens and the Blacks go through hell and back for the claim. Thank you for this video!
Allicent has no legitimacy
@@LaerHeiSeiRyuu Maybe I should have word it differently. She does have the right to fight for her *son's* claim for the Iron Throne. Good part on pointing it out.
honestly the whole succession crisis thing should be easily solved. The Council established that the male heir has preference over the female heir. The only reason the whole dance of dragons are happening is Viserys have big guilt about killing his wife so he's been stuck on having Rhaenyra succeed him, despite the fact the whole reason he is making is because the realm perfered the male heir over the female. If he had named Ageon heir everything would have been solved. And beside Meagor and the Backfyres the succession has been clear cut
Daemon would have killed rhaenyra sons by harwin in a heartbeat for the iron throne( for his own son).
If Rhaenyra really wanted power that bad she should have married her brother and groomed him into being her puppet. Any plan other than that was dumb. And yeah, Alicent had no choice at that point, either she fought or she watched her kids die.
One of the biggest issues is how by naming rhaenyra heir, he is undermining either his or rhaenryas rule as he was chosen based on male premogentiure. Thats what supports his claim as king. And its not like he is changing the system because its unfair, he never enacts a law of eldest inheritance regardless of sex, which makes rhaenyras claim super unstable as its not based on anything legal probably because any female premogeniture law would invite rhaenys to claim his throne
It's rare that I agree with a creator on all their GoT-verse takes, but you've managed to accomplish that! There's not one thing I disagree with yet. Btw I've been the biggest Olivia Cooke fan ever since Me and Earl and the Dying Girl, which Guardian hilariously called "the Citizen Kane of cancer movies". Imo one of her underrated projects is her playing a very non traditional Becky Sharp in the ITV adaption of Vanity Fair a few years ago. It didn't get much traction in the states.
I'll have to check them out! I only know her from Bates Motel but I apparently underestimated how much I like her, because when news of her casting came out it was the first time I can recall being really excited for HotD.
Another thing : Rhaenyra's children were obviously bastards. Viserys forced her to marry a gay man. What did he think would happen? By the laws of Westeros, Rhaenyra's children couldn't inherit anything. Having bastards meant that Rhaenyra unfit to rule. Alicent must have felt insulted that her true born sons were being passed over for bastards. Rhaenyra wasn't fooling anybody. Her children were Strongs. Bastards aren't allowed to inherit, nor are the mothers of bastards. Alicent's claim for her children was virtually bulletproof, but Viserys refused to change his mind. Rhaenyra has always driven me crazy. Everyone knew that she cheated on her husband and was therefore guilty of high treason. Who did she think she was fooling? Rhaenyra must have known that Alicent was right about Aegon and Aemond having stronger claims than Rhaenyra and her bastards. That's how the laws of succession work. Bastards can't be kings and mothers of bastards can't be queens.
Yeah, I really wish Viserys hadn't buried his head in the sand about this because it's such an interesting aspect of their situation as well. Viserys was truly asking for some fuckery given that he married his heir off to a gay man, like I have no idea WHAT he could have possibly been thinking in insisting on keeping Rhaenyra as his heir and yet seemingly putting her in a position where she might never have heirs herself.
@@HillsAliveYT I think visery onew they was bastard so did leanor and corlys but claimed them anyways because they was engaged to their cousin bella and Rheana so the velaryon would have gotten to the throne eventually
@@josiahdavistv1216 Yeah I think Viserys definitely knew but likely didn't care. Rhaenyra's probable bastards present a really unique situation actually, because at least as far as the Iron Throne is concerned, it sort of doesn't matter whether or not they're bastards because their claim is through their mother anyway. When it comes to the Velaryon claims it's obviously different, but it's really interesting how legitimacy could potentially be a non-issue for Rhaenyra since she is the Targaryen claimant and obviously all of her children are hers regardless.
I agree.
I am pretty certain that Rhaenyra´s claim does not depend on who her children are and that she did not commit treason, as she did not cheat on the ruling king alla Cersei. Even bastards can inherit if there are no other children and they are legitimized.
Well, they made Alicent a crazy mess on the show and basically her dad's pawn. While I do have lots of fun with her craziness, the problem is that, just like you pointed out in your video about Sansa and Dany, they again undermined a female character's motivations and political agenda.
So, the majority of the audience who hilariously proclaim they're "Team Black" ("Team Green" is also hilarious) jumps at the opportunity the show gave them to simplify and say everything happened due to Alicent's jealousy of Rhaenyra.
Two last things that are somewhat connected to this
1. It's weird how many people condemn everything the Greens do but defend Daemon so fiercely. Go figure.
2. I'm not against Rhaenyra and the Blacks (or Alicent and the Greens). I guess this "team" thing was inevitable but imo it diminishes the story and the character's motivations.
I think the show has portrayed both sides as morally grey/flawed, the problem is the blacks are the more "fun" side to watch because of Daemon and Rhaenyra and they relate closer to modern western values so most people support them and see the greens as pure eveil
@@idawg7332 I totally agree with you about the Blacks being closer to modern western values.
About the fun part, I really like Rhaenyra, but Daemon... not so much haha. But that's a personal opinion, ofc.
Your neglecting to mention that the real reason the maesters, nobility, small folk, and lay folk are essential jostling as one to wrestle power back from the Targaryen dyansty and back into Andal hands along with the wealth levied by the Targaryen's during there rule or captured during the conquest. They have century old grudge against Targaryen's who they see as barbaric heathens. Ironic sense by all accounts it's very much the reverse. The free cities Valyrian in origin are in some respects at least a century or two ahead of the Andals nevermind the first men...This all due to the fact that the Targaryen dynasty was far to lenient on the Andals and First Men when they invaded.
In ages past in whenever the Valryian's invaded someone be it the Ghiscari, Rhoynar, or former Andal lands in Essos they demanded submission, acceptance or death. Aegon because of his dream decided not to do this so as to unite the realm and basically play nice. Well this is the result... Bitter people angry they are being ruled a hostile foreign power alien to them that's stronger than they are. Aegon gave them a hand and they took the whole arm. All because he allowed them too much freedom. Had the freehold invaded all of westeros would be in same lot as the people enslaved in slavers bay with no choice to rebel at all.
The reason people like daemon is because he’s sincerely an asshole. He doesn’t pretend to be a good person or religious or pretentious. He just does what he does out in the open. While the greens give every excuse in the world instead of just saying “we want power”
I was completely neutral as a viewer but team black are so damn annoying for ignoring and mocking Alicent as a victim of sexual abse, condemn B&C murder, and are overall nasty! I just became team green for the spite of it.
Rhaenyra would have been the right side of Viserys decided to full on adopt Dornish succession laws for the iron throne and only the iron throne
Both sides had valid claims and committed extreme atrocities against one another and the common people. But I think we can all agree that this situation would not have happened if primogeniture and misogyny were not a thing. But, I do understand why Alicent fought for what she believed was her children's rights (her sons being male heirs and all). It had been what she was raised to believe and she was simple doing what any mother would.
*Primogeniture is a result of misogyny so yeah there is misogyny occuring during Rhaenys and Rhanyra's attempt for the throne. Rhaenys didn't fight for her claim, but it would be an insult to say that she didn't have the better claim or that she was incapable simply because she was a woman. Also, even if Rhaenyra didn't turn evil or whatever and had been a good ruler and didn't do no wrong, they still would have deposed her because she was a woman. Let's just accept that Westeros be like that.😕
Not just for her childrens rights, but also her childrens lives. Her kids were too much of a threat to Rhaenyra, if they had let her take the throne, Rhaenyra and Daemon would have likely killed them. Yeah the circumstances were unfortunate for everyone involved with male primogeniture being an unfair rule and all, but they essentially forced Alicents hand, she had no choice. She did indeed what any mother would.
@@pg1448 Yesss, I agree with this. Daemon is someone who grows increasingly dangerous by the day, and even if Rhaenyra had meant it when she said that her siblings would meet no harm, her husband might not uphold the same promises and listened to his wife.
@@pg1448
What really is fair anyway? Fair for who, the people ruling yet no mention of the people they're ruling over. Maybe the people don't want a king OR a queen. Maybe the people don't want the targaryens as leaders either. If the women wanted to be fair they'd advocate for voting and tossing out royal bloodlines altogether. How is it fair for one bloodline to rule with an iron fist for thousands of years? Essentially their power is fear and intimidation with dragons. I'm sure that's comforting for the commoners. . .
I always felt that the Dance of the Dragons was essentially one group of useless entitled incompetents fighting another group of useless entitled incompetents over the Iron Throne to the detriment and suffering of the people of the Seven Kingdoms.
I could get behind Alicent, Otto Hightower and even the Sea Snake because they got into their position because of their wits and not because of a special bloodline and fire breathing magic murder lizards.
Thank you! Having watched the show, Alicent was really the only one I sympathized with by the end. I think her biggest character flaw, in fact, is one that she shares with a lot of other characters (Viserys, Rhaenyra, even Daemon): indecisiveness. Alicent's attempts in the earlier episodes to balance her position as the mother of Viserys' firstborn son with her love for and loyalty to Rhaenyra, even though Rhaenyra repays her by lying to her and betraying her, was heartbreaking to watch. But Alicent would be a stronger character, and almost easier to root for, if there came a point when she decisively turned against Rhaenyra and vowed to prevent her from becoming Queen. I think that would be Driftmark and its aftermath: not only has Alicent realized that Rhaenyra is willing to have her own brother tortured ("questioned sharply") just for pointing out the truth of her sons' parentage, but right after that Rhaenyra apparently has her own husband killed and then goes off and marries the most dangerous man in the 7 kingdoms. I can only imagine how that would look for Alicent; I think it would be an absolutely terrifying moment for her. I wish we got to see her reaction to Rhaenyra and Daemon's marriage, I imagine she would beg Viserys to disinherit Rhaenyra and from then on swear to do whatever it took to spare her children from Rhaenyra and Daemon's wrath. Instead her (apparently genuine) reconciliation with Rhaenyra at the dinner and her misunderstanding of Viserys on his deathbed just felt unsatisfying from a storytelling perspective. But then again, you can't blame her, and I think that's the tragedy of Alicent's character: as Rhaenys says, she doesn't want to escape, she just wants to make a window in the wall of her prison.
Great content I love it.
Keeping Rhaenyra as his heir and not expecting conflicts was very foolish from Viserys given how he become king and how the laws of westeros work. He is the only one responsible to the dance.
I love Alicent Hightower, just like I did the Starks in the original show
The Starks are coming for Alicent.
as to Viserys wanting Rhaenyras eldest son to follow her, she never had an eldest daughter so technically we dont know what Viserys would have said about female succesion if Rhaenyra had a female heir
Know i am late But he Said in the show that her eldest child will succeed her No matter the gender
I think this analysis is heavily dependent on the view that Targaryen succession should follow Westerosi succession.
The issue I have is that Targaryen rule is not an outgrowth of Westerosi society. Aegon conquered Westeros. A significant part of Targaryen rule is based on their being exceptional (read: having dragons) and therefore getting special treatment like allowing incest. If Westerosi standards were enforced, Targaryens wouldn't be in charge at all.
So are succession standards for the Iron Throne clear? No! We have an eldest child inheriting, two cases of succession by force, and one case of the eldest child of a designated heir getting the crown.
None of which contradict absolute primogeniture as the theoretical line of succession. Similarly to incest, this could be viewed as a facet of Targaryen succession which is unique and limited to them.
If this is the case, the problem is not Rhaenyra bucking established succession, but Viserys failing to clearly establish a succession method by either reinforcing his decreed heir (absolute) or altering his decision (maleline). I'm not saying that this is the case, but it is possible that Viserys assumed everyone understood absolute primogeniture to be the method and thought no clarification was needed.
But, as he did not countermand his previous selection, anyone uplifting rival claimants is not following succession, but choosing what they think the succession ought to be. That means Alicent was not preventing war, but contributing to its likelihood by actively undermining the legitimate heir. Offering Queenship is also underwhelming as Alicent is basically offering Rhaenyra the position of Queen Consort in exchange for giving up real power as Queen Regnant.
Also you refer to Rhaenyra at 7:10 as (potentially) Queen Regent instead of Queen Regnant. Likely just using the wrong word, but if not it follows the Greens' strategy of begging the question by starting from the assumption of male primogeniture by presenting Rhaenyra's son as the claimant instead of dealing with Rhaenyra's own stronger claim.
Yeah someone else pointed out the regent/regnant thing already and I just used the wrong word, I either wrote it wrong or read too fast and read it wrong and didn't catch the error.
But yes, the analysis is dependent on the idea that it should follow Westerosi succession, because it seems like common sense to me that even if you're a foreign invader, then you either need to follow their standards or at least establish your own. I'm not arguing that the Targaryen succession SHOULD follow the majority of the laws of Westerosi succession (because obviously even every part of Westeros doesn't necessarily have the same rules), but that if the Targs don't want to establish any actual rules then the obvious presumption is that they are following the rules of Westeros. The creepy incest is creepy, but they at least did come up with some halfassed excuse as to why they could do it when the rest of the country could not. The rules of succession not being clear IS the fault of the Targaryens, and Viserys obviously DID need to clarify it.
And I disagree about Alicent contributing to war as well, at least for quite a while, because as has been established in Westeros for thousands of years before the Targaryens arrived, you can't just choose your heir willy-nilly, and because Viserys established no clear rules of succession, the position of Alicent's children would always be in question in the eyes of many people in Westeros. Plus as I pointed out in the video, beginning the precedent of choosing your heir without even explaining why could lead to a really messy situation if the people of broader Westeros decided that they didn't want the rules to apply to them for some reason as well.
I think the title makes me contrarian as I think the case needs to extremely clear in favor of Alicent for her to be the only one worth rooting for.
My contention is not that the Targaryens did not want rules of succession or that Viserys should get to break them, but that it is plausible that they were already operating, or at least trying to operate, under their method of succession. If so, how much was a Targaryen failure to communicate and how much was Westerosi lords hearing what they wanted, like interpreting decrees referencing my firstborn as meaning my firstborn son.
If no one directly brought the question of the method of succession to his attention, Viserys could have considered the matter settled a hundred years ago (missing the fact that the methods had always aligned) and only seen the questions of who was heir as an attempt at jockeying for power. If Viserys thought like this, he may have considered designating Rhaenyra his heir the first time to be reaffirming the line of succession and doing it again redundant.
I just don't feel it is sufficiently clear to deny the possibility that Targaryens/Viserys had made their wishes known, but that the lords of Westeros disregarded them because of their preconceived notions and Viserys just didn't realize that. Again, maybe I'm just overly combatative because of the title, but I think Rhaenyra either has the stronger claim or it is muddled, in which either side could be worth rooting for.
I also think bringing up Alicent's children ignores the fact that her actions place Rhaenyra's children in the same position, being seen as heirs who were passed over despite a legitimate claim, it just depends on which side you see as legitimate.
@@AlaricXIII LOL yeah, well hyperbolic titles for RUclips videos seem to be the standard but seem to be confusing to a not small number of people as well. Narrowing down a title topic that is compelling and under 100 characters is not as easy as it might seem!
I realized I was probably overreacting when I considered that I wouldn't have blinked an eye at the same video but instead titled something like 'Presenting Alicent's Case'.
@@AlaricXIII Problem I see with this (absolute primogeniture) is that Aegon was king even though Visenya was older. A system of simply designating your heir is ofc still possible.
agreed on this, even if i think the entire thing could have been avoided if jaeherys had followed traditional succession laws and given the throne to rhaenys, only child of his eldest son aemon, instead of viserys in the first place. daughters come after sons but before uncles (see the stark sisters who married their uncles). totally agree that marriage was the best way out for rhaenyra and alicent and it's tragic it didn't happen.
I don't think anyone is worth rooting for. I'm inclined to be pro-black, but the greens have a bit of a point as well. I don't blame Viserys, but I blame Otto Hightower for putting the notion that Rhaenyra would kill her kids in Alicent's head. I don't think either Rhaenyra or Daemon would do such a thing. It's not in Rhaenyra's character to murder the children of her best friend. And Daemon is moody, but wouldn't have killed his own family members unprovoked. They're his nephews, his brother's children, after all. If there ever was something stable about him: it's his loyalty to his family/brother. However much he disagreed with his brother, he never tried to usurp him. He trolled him, but didn't betray him. I'm sure he'd toy with the idea of killing them, but wouldn't go through. It's Otto's personal distaste for Daemon that leads him to imagining him as a bigger monster than he actually is.
Exactly 💯💯💯
I don’t think I’ve watched this video before, and now after watching Episode 7 of HOTD, I see where you’re coming from.
Alicent (in the show that is) was always the dutiful daughter, wife, and mother, doing what was expected of her, and expecting everyone to follow the rules.
And then, here comes Rhaenyra, throwing away her “virtue”, even soiling a Kingsguard’s cloak, and indulging in her own pleasures without consideration for how this might affect the realm. The sense of righteousness is great and she refuses to accept that this “harlot” will become queen, and she “knows” Rhaenyra will produce bastards. And now Aemond lost an eye, and the king refuses to punish those responsible ! “I WILL NOT HAVE IT !!” must have been what she screamed in her mind before taking the dagger herself and trying to take Lucerys’ eye.
Now this probably isn't gonna get read 4 months after this videos release but the entire thesis point of this video is extremely ironic considering the current popular outlook from the fanbase, for whatever reason the fans have deemed team black favourable despite their clear flaws rather than siding with alicent like this video suggest
I understand what you’re saying, I have a hard time believing that Rhaenyra was always going to kill her brothers even if there wasn’t a war.
Yeah, honestly you could be right, however the destabilizing force of trying to fudge around with lines of succession means that the people who were supporting Rhaenyra would also have a vested interest in offing Alicent's boys, and I can see Daemon killing them with zero hesitation, and I'm sure there were plenty of others who would be up to the task as well.
@@HillsAliveYT Yeah you definitely got a point with Daemon.
@@simmingsammi Considering Rhaenyra sent her StepMother and younger half-sister to brothels when they surrendered because of a barb made by Alicent about Rhaenyra's first three children being bastards, there was very little chance of her not killing Alicent's sons. The irony of Rhaenyra being angry is that it was the truth. The boys were brunet and resembled the Strong Knight, not her Valerian featured husband. It was the gender swap version of Robert and Cersei. The change was that a Queen Claimant and her husband knew/approved.
Let them remain there until they are with child. They speak of bastards so freely, let them each have one for their very own-Mysaria. Mysaria was Daemon's lover and Rhaenyra's master of whispers.
@@stacywhisenant6242 I know about the Valerian features but I’ve never heard about the strong features.
@@simmingsammi brown hair and eyes, and a pug nose. Her husband Laenor had silver hair and purple eyes. Rhaenyra had silver gold hair and purple eyes. Any of the Targs born from outside unions took the coloring of the other family like Prince Duncan.
I have saying this for the longest while, the codified succession laws ARE important and when Kings start making exceptions to the rules on a whim, no good can ever come of it. Every time this argument comes up it always presents Aegon as an ambitious usurper while ignoring not only thousands of years of pre-conquest Andal tradition but also the Great Council of 101 AC which passed agnatic succession into law
So good to hear this analysis - it really has felt like people have completely forgotten about the politics of the setting the second they saw a 3D Allicent being stroppy.
Alicent put the needs of the kingdom before herself, I agree.
Lots of things I've not considered before. Great video! Keep it up!!!!!
Allicent all the way
I agree with this and in my mind, Alicent's anger is not just jealousy (in fact, I'd go so far as to say it isn't jealousy in the way people think of jealousy at all). Alicent's anger, in my opinion, comes from a place of deep disappointment instead of just envy because Rhaenyra, despite being named heir and having it so much better than everyone, really isn't doing much if anything at all to make her ascension easier/more justified (fathering one bastard is a mistake, three is just being bold as fuck for no reason). Alicent, on the other hand, while being dealt an absolutely terrible hand, has tried to uphold her duties as a queen; she hates how Rhaenyra has it so good yet doesn't cherish it and honour it. If Alicent loved Rhaenyra, these feelings of disappointment would make even more sense and be magnified like this.
Alicent, for all her moral greyness, to me personally, is a lot more sympathetic of a character than Rhaenyra (I'm still team black by principle regarding the succession itself since she was named heir, thus it is her right but everything said in this video is 100% correct and it was foolish of Viserys and it was definitely uprooting things). She had no real choice in marrying Viserys and when she did she lost her best friend despite at first trying to reconcile. Rhaenyra lying to her not only made her look and feel a fool, but it also removed the only family she had in King's Landing as much of a beneficial political move as it was, people don't seem to realize how unempathetic that was on Rhaenyra's part. She always had her father backing her and her family protecting her. For her to just remove the only person Alicent had at court and isolate her from any family member is simply cruel (I'd argue much crueller and calculated than anything Alicent has done thus far). Rhaenyra was the rightful heir but I'd be a liar if I said I didn't find her very careless and painfully unaware of what being heir means. She acts like everything is owed to her or guaranteed.
People give Alicent so much crap for her actions when by comparison, they really aren't that bad at all and her paranoia/fears of what would happen once Rhaenyra ascends the throne are not unfounded (Daemon would ABSOLUTELY kill her children either on his own or by Rhaenyra's command. Book readers you know just how ironfisted Rhaenyra can be and becomes). Everything Alicent has done thus far was either justifiable from a certain angle or spurred by emotions that are valid given the circumstance. If she was the usurper right from the get-go, she would've found ways to undermine Viserys years ago. She wouldn't have been the last person by his side when he was about to die even when no one was looking.
Admittedly, I am slightly biased from just how much enabling I see in HoTD fandoms when it comes to Rhaenyra. Maybe that's why I defend Alicent so strongly, but the more I think and look at it the more I empathize with and understand her. She really was right on the money when she said "you flout all to do as you please" to Rhaenyra (and that will be her downfall: her inability to realize that she isn't entitled to what she wants and the world will not give it to her as she pleases) and people don't realize it. But yeah. 100% an Alicent supporter even if regarding the succession I'm still team black at least regarding the books (in the show, I think I might be team green now lol).
Viserys really thought staying blind to Rhaenyra's behaviours would help her. I don't think he grasped that no one was as blind as him.
The fact that the Velaryon here are black make it even more painful lol
Fr tho@@dendenne4856
I’m team alicent all the way people on Twitter hate her and fanboy over the targaryens but I’ve always said she the most innocent n has the most logical reasoning
Her children are literally psychopaths, and she wants them on the throne. There's no way someone would support this.
yes but "the most innocent" goes to her daughter, helaena 😢
Personally I’m team green all the way🐲both sides have terrible options for succession but at least team Green had legitimate concerns and actually knew how to govern outside of dragon stone😅
Great video. I just want to point out that you're even more right than you detailed in the video with regards to Viserys's shortsightedness in overturning millennia of precedent. Rhaenyra's three eldest children were obviously Harwin Strong's bastards. So not only was Viserys demanding that Rhaenyra be an exception to everyone else's rule, but also, in effect, most likely every subsequent ruler descended from her.
And I actually wish that Rhaenyra didn't go nuclear on everyone who pointed this out because it is an interesting succession question. Yes, putting a bastard on the throne would have been outrageous either way, however all of her children's claims would have been coming from her bloodline, so it's not exactly analogous to a situation like Robert and Cersei. I would have been interested to see how things would have shaken out if Rhaenyra would have just been like "I'm the Targaryen, they inherit through me and are my children, what of it" and didn't press any claim to Driftmark.
The strange thing is Viserys was chosen by the the people of Westeros when they snubbed a woman who was more qualified than him. He knew the kingdom didn’t like the idea of a female ruler why put your daughter in that situation
Respectfully disagree. While I do generally feel bad for Alicent because she is undeniably one of the biggest victims in this whole tragic story, she isn't necessarily someone (at least that I find) worth rooting for. Everything she does is solely for the benefit of other men and their ambitions, never her own. She's internalized misogyny personified. While the "girlboss-ification" of Rhaenyra is a worthy topic to explore on its own, at least she still wants to try to do something with her power as queen and change things; Alicent, on the other hand just perpetuates the same system that's led to her miserable life.
Rhaenyra doesn’t want to change things
would be a good argument if rhaenyra actually did something, alas she's also just someone who upholds the patriarchy. not even mentioning what she did to the 2 elder daughters of nobles houses at the behest of corlys, she even says in the show that jace and baela's SON would be heir with no mind if they had a daughter first. she clearly has no interest in uprooting the system as long as she's the exception to it
"Any kinds of rules need to be followed." I would not say this is a correct message. Following the rules allows euron crows eye to seize power through the kingsmoot, it allows tyrion to be sentenced to death after his trial by combat, it prevents jon doing anything about the Boltons and fills the wall with an army of sexually frustrated men with nothing to lose. Meanwhile when dany breaks the rules she gets an army of unsullied, when Jaime breaks the rules he saves a city, etc.
Breaking the rules is also what allowed Aerys to slaughter a ton of lords on false charges of treason and trigger Robert's Rebellion. Clearly neither option is perfect, and I don't actually think all rules need to be followed, but I think given the structure of Westerosi society that if Viserys wanted Rhaenyra to be queen no matter what it obviously would have been smarter to simply not get married again. I also think that generally speaking, rules that are agreed upon by many are probably going to be better options than just letting any random person decide that whatever they want goes, and it's clearly an issue in this case because if Viserys' decision to choose whoever he wanted as his heir were extrapolated to the entirety of Westeros then it would have been complete chaos.
@@HillsAliveYT well the issue with not getting remarried is that it puts all your eggs in one basket. If rhaenyra dies childless that means either daemon is the king which viserys didn't want, or the targaryen dynasty is over which viserys wanted even less.
Again my original point still applies, even if we're adding the qualifier "agreed by many." Everyone agrees on the rules of the nights watch, the rules of the kingsmoot, the rules of the kingsguard, yet frequently these rules cause problems that endanger thousands of lives.
@@mappingshaman5280 But the remarriage also nearly guarantees that civil war is the outcome of this situation. That's why the critique towards Alicent/the Hightowers baffles me, because if any family married their daughter to Viserys and she had legitimate sons, they would have gone to war with Rhaenyra for the throne if they had the means to. If Viserys had married Laena instead and Rhaenyra was trying to claim the throne for herself and her bastards, House Velaryon would have gone to war with her over it.
And maybe I'm not being clear enough but I'm not disagreeing with you that rules are absurd sometimes, I'm saying that in this instance Viserys clearly made the wrong decision and anyone in the position of Alicent and the Hightowers would have felt completely and probably justifiably screwed over by it.
@@HillsAliveYT well if you're viserys and you believe the saviour of westeros will come from a descendant of aegon the conqueror, between letting that line be ended because you didn't want yo risk civil war, and causing a civil war, I'd say causing the civil war is the lesser of two evils. Obviously certain decisions of his seem stupid in retrospect, but he's making decisions with the grand goal of stopping the white walkers in mind. Furthermore he might believe that those whom are rigid about getting a man to succeed, might just support daemon if viserys has no male heirs, meaning his decision wouldn't even have any consequences since a civil war is bound to occur anyway.
Jon followed the rules by staying at Castle Black rather than riding off to help his brother with his war. And that decision is likely why he lived to the very end. He could have been slaughtered at the red wedding.
If you love to manipulative people, of course, Alicent is for you.
Reminds of one of Tywin’s best quotes “The House That Puts Family First Will Always Defeat The House That Puts The Whims And Wishes Of Its Sons And Daughters First.”
if Viserys wanted Rhaenyra to have a secure claim to the throne, he shouldn’t have had more kids….
….and even THEN there would have been a problem, one by the name of Daemon.
But he need a heir if Raenyra die before having childreen
Crazy how viserys always babbled on about the threat in the north but did everything in his power to ensure the end of the Targaryen dynstaty. He started the chain reaction that would ensure westeros loses its greatest weapons against the Others. Luckily rhaegar figured out what the song of ice and fire actually meant at the last second and realised that his house was only half of the answer, and then we get Jon. Who I absolutely love btw. Hes the only targaryen worthy of ruling the seven kingdoms. Book Jon I mean but show Jon to.
The Targaryens were just a house full of Walder Frey's. Prove me wrong.
But in all seriousness I would argue, just like Preston Jacobs, that the maesters were messing with things, which would be cool to see in HOD.
Although I always adore your thoughts and analyses, there's just something special about a nuanced and heartfelt take on my favorite character from the DotD (controversial opinion, apparently!) Thank you so much for giving my girl Alicent her justice, and I'm gonna keep my fingers crossed that everywhere isn't overwhelmed with hate for her when the show comes out
Yeah I really hope they do her justice when the show comes out too, she definitely goes far beyond the line ultimately, but she was pushed most of the way there by other people.
Definitely! In a story packed full of morally grey characters doing terrible things, it’s been baffling to see Alicent get so much hate, especially when there’s depth behind her actions.
@@ladylady I'm guessing a lot of it stems from the Targaryens being the fan fave and perhaps the feeling that since Alicent is not a Targaryen, she's trying to "steal" the throne from a true Targaryen, but I agree that it's much morally grayer and deeper than most people acknowledge.
@@HillsAliveYT Now that you mention it... I'm thinking that might be why I like her so much? As somebody who's pretty over Targaryens and their perceived specialness and entitlement, Alicent's kind of an outlier? She's married in from outside of the family, so her children aren't technically "pure" Targaryens I believe. And she's going up against said "pure" Targaryens to fight for the societal rights of her children, so... on some level I think I'm rooting for her?
@@ladylady Yeah same, I am similarly over the Targaryen entitlement, especially when they're going up against literal ancient houses that have existed in Westeros for millennia like the Starks or Hightowers, and I just tend to have sympathy for characters like Alicent or Catelyn whose childrens' lives are put in mortal danger as a result of someone mucking up the laws of succession in a way that impedes what should belong to their children by right. Considering that Westeros already treats women terribly, the fact that Alicent was going to be robbed of one of the few things that women are actually supposed to be entitled to sucks.
The argument that Rhaenyra would have killed her siblings is not logical either, why because she didn't kill any of them until they struck out against her.
Especially considering it that it was Alison's second son that killed Rhaenyra's first son. The hightowers are projecting what they think, without knowing that the enemy isn't the children it's them.
Rhaenyra did not even kill Alison and Helena when she took over the capital, so please keep it real. This is what happens we you overreach; truly.
It's sad to know we're going to watch this family destroy itself because of the Hightowers greed. Just for Rhaenyra's sons to sit on the throne anyway.
Sure, she wouldnt have. But the lords of the realm might not leave her much choice. As long as Aegon or his offspring live, Rhaenyra's claim, or her children's claim will never be secure. There will always be some lord or another willing to rise up and depose her in favor of Aegon lest their own claims be challenged (especially if they're younger brothers of a sister). Just look at what happened with the Blackfyres. If the histories are to be believed Daemon loved Daeron and had no wish to fight him. It was Bittersteel who convinced him to rise up and claim what was 'rightfully his'. The same thing would happen here. Even if Rhaenyra and Aegon agree to keep things amicable, their kids, or grandkids might not share the same feelings. What's to stop Aegon's sons from rising up in the future to take out Jace? The deal their parents made? Fat chance. The only solution is to unite the rival branches (which has it's own set of problems, since I doubt the Hightowers would accept Aegon being just King Consort), or extinguish one line. In short, it's all Viserys' fault.
This is Sansa vs Jon/Daenerys/Arya all over again. If you don't have a dragon, not a swordsman, or a cool fruit ninja you're an evil lame demon spawn clawing the fan favorite.
Great video and its good to see people thinking outside the box of what the show is trying to push
i throughly enjoyed this video! had me really pondering about the whole war! i was a huge sider of rhanerya but it’s crazy how weak viserys really was! thanks for the amazing video!! gonna binge some more! :)
The thing is that while Rhaenyra may be the rightfull heir she is as polliticly competent as a wet lemming making no moves in her favour until the dragons were flying
The way I see it is this, in a world ruled by monarchy, what the King says should go, I mean, that’s kinda the whole point, so if the King says his daughter is the heir, then I really do think everyone should follow because that’s what the King ordered. Yes Westeros may have had its own centuries of rules, but what is the point of a King if his commands don’t matter? And I mean, the Targaryens ruling is not really even established through law anyways when they took the continent by conquest and just did what they wanted. So ultimately, if Viserys did say I want my daughter to be my heir, then the king’s word is the law.
I do understand Alicent’s reasons for war, and I don’t subscribe to the notion that she’s somehow this evil scheming person who just wants power. But I do think there could have been options other than war and tearing the country apart. The country and the house could have remained united perhaps if they all declare their loyalties to Raenerya publicly, maybe there could have been discussions of marriage of the other children or even the younger ones.
I just think in the end they didn’t try diplomacy hard enough. I think everyone was blinded by wanting their side to fully win and be secure that they didn’t see there were still other options to be discussed. And perhaps if Prince Lucerys hadn’t been killed, there could have still been chances for peace. There are still other ways to unify and establish a new precedent that wouldn’t cause any trouble in the future. But Alicent’s side did strike the first deadly blow that truly ignited the war and I think that for me makes it really hard to support the Greens.
Eh, but I mean by this logic then Aerys Targaryen was in the right to slaughter everybody and the nobility was wrong for rebelling against him, because what the king says should go. If the king's word is law, then Joffrey was also completely justified in everything he ever did. And that's largely why a monarchy is different from a dictatorship, it's a system where the leader has the most power but doesn't have absolute power, which at least in theory protects the world from becoming completely controlled by a madman or a tyrant, and having rules that apply to everyone rather than having one person who gets to make up or change the rules as they go along is an enormous safeguard against having one single terrible person be able to wreak absolute havoc on the people they rule.
@@HillsAliveYT I do not think you can equate murdering your bannermen to picking an heir your bannermen do not like. One is breaking the feudal pact, the other one ain´t.
@@Mongan01 Going against succession laws that are backed by thousands of years of tradition and precedent is also breaking the feudal pact, because they are integral to the political system. If the iron throne suddenly sets a precedent that the eldest child inherits instead of the eldest son that could put the titles of lots of lords in the entire realm into question and cause lots of conflict. If Robert f.e. had decided that younger brothers inherit instead of older brothers and declared Renly his heir instead of Stannis, he would have stolen Stannis's birthright and Stannis would have had every right to go to war.
@@pg1448 The Iron Throne is a multi-cultural entity that is at the time of the Dance basically 100y old - no reason to automatically assume that its succession laws need to follow the same laws as those of its subordinate cultures (factually it does not, as IIRC women can more easily inherit a lordship than the Iron Throne). A ruling king picking his heir actually also has precedent: as this is how Viserys got his throne in the first place, by Jaehearys picking him - on recommendation basically of the Great Council, true, but he was not tied to its decision and it was the king who decided to convene it in the 1st place. Furthermore, you mix up succession customs and the feudal pact between a monarch and their vassals which have little to do with each other. - Smth like the example you gave happened in ASOIAF: the Tarly Case.
@@Mongan01 If you want to be accepted by your vassals you would be wise to adapt to their customs and traditions though. The Targaryens already did that when they abolished polygamy for example. And House Targaryen and the iron throne have adhered to male preference primogeniture long before the Great Council anyway, else why was Aegon Lord of Dragonstone instead his older sister Visenya? Aegons grandson Aegon the uncrowned was meant to inherit the thone too, not his older sister, if Maegor had not stolen it from him. Jaehaerys, afraid of civil war, prudently called the council to have the lords of the realm settle the issue, promising that he would follow their decision. With that he set a precedent that the iron throne respects the customs of the westerosi lords in matters of succession and consults them when succession disputes arise and also affirmed once again that not only sons but even brothers and their children come before daughters. So all things considered the precedents that sons come before daughters both among the Targaryens and in the seven kingdoms are as solid as they could possibly be, the precedent for a king to pick his heir and take away a sons birthright, for no apparent reason especially, is very questionable. It should not be surprising that many lords thought that Viserys overstepped the limits of his royal authority in this case and disrespected very firm laws and traditions. He basically asked for a civil war by doing this.
I really like the way that the show has focused on that window of what was unknown/biased in the books, and showing the family conflict side of things. It makes a really interesting commentary on how what we think we know from history books is, in many cases, full of assumptions and biased takes. It can only ever tell a version of what happened that is publicly known, which can never include personal motivations. and even then, we are sometimes getting a false version or an embellished version because of the author’s bias. Very interesting take on showing what was told in the book.
now that S1 is over im definitely rooting for the Black tbh. Sure no one is 100% good/evil but ultimately:
1) Rhaenyra is THE Heir.
2) she actually suggested alliances by marriage that were rejected.
3) she tried to be civil for her father sake.
4) she isn't a little psychopath like Aegon.
Rhaenyra is absolutely a psychopath but I don’t want to spoil anything if you haven’t read the book
@@jaijoerik6233 tbh as long as sis isn't r*ping anyone she still better than her half brother imo. It's ASOIAF so I totally expect her to do some crazy shit that might consider awful later
@@saminouminouwell she pretty much do, Criston cole like possibly many others didn't have any choice, it's the illusion of free will, he is a peasant and she is the princess, it will always be him who will pay the price.
This is the most logical explanation to this situation. This is something I'm going to post on Rawrist's channel.
Awesome!
I go with Rhaenery because......her father told the lords she's my heir and, correct me if I'm wrong, but Cristian Cole (Kingmaker) forced Aegon to be king because........it has to be........that Rhaenery rejected being his wife and he became vindictive!
No, Alicent is NOT the only one worth rooting for in this story. Hardly anyone is worth rooting for. And I suspect that is something a lot of people will have difficulty accepting.
I do think Alicent is hated unfairly and I emphasize with her being puritanical because she’s had to follow all the rules and watch others flaunt them and succeed because of that. I don’t emphasize with the way she emotionally neglects her children however. They are reminders of her forced marriage so I get why. Does she know about Aegon’s bastards you think or even care? I just don’t like how she flip flops between wanting to play the game of thrones but doesn’t want blood or blame on her hands. She critisizes the way Larys and Cristina help her but needs them at the same time. I don’t like Rhaenyra but at least she’s unapologetically about making sure she wins and gets what she want for her faction.
The only people to root for that don’t leave wreckage in their paths for me are Haelena, Addam of Hull, Alyn, and Nettles. People stuck in the crossfires of the war.
Team alicent 1 million percent
Have watched the whole season and it really is confusing to me whose side I am on. It's so great that the characters are really well-written. I can see myself rooting for Alicent and then Rhaenyra and then vice versa.
~ This is really all the Weak Kings fault...it is ON HIM!~
wow, a rare good take on youtube.
Viserys did not change the laws of succession because changing it would mean that Rhaenys and Laenor are the rightful heirs, this will bring a war in a few generations (i guess their descendants are now the same). Viserys had no right to mess with the very rule that holds the most volatile family in Westeros.
I am with the Blacks , but I like that someone is supporting Alyssent. George RR Martin teased people are gonna be divided watching the two groups fighting each other...It's gonna be an entertaining controversy.
A very objective analysis.
great points all around. I would love to hear your opinion on how was this portrayed in the show
The people in this medieval kingdom are not the most progressive thinking people. Jaeherys understood this and knew for obvious reasons that people with power fear losing that power.They will only be as loyal as a life cycle is required.
Why medieval and NOT modern day???
most people root for blacks just because they think Rhaenyra is justified to rule according to modern standards but they don't really put themselves in the world in which some rules had existed for thousands of years and changing them this way was wrong. And I think Rhaenyra would've definitely got rid of her 'half brothers' in a fashion so Alicent did what she had to do. Both faction had their own justification and both were wrong, both did terrible things but meanwhile both were right too ;-). As King Daeron said:" Having too many potential Targaryen heirs was as dangerous as having too few".
I don't think Rhaeneyra's or Daemon would just have "got rid" of the other kids had they secured the throne.
That's just Otto Hightower's reasoning to snub Daemon
The show explicitly states that Rhaenyra's first born CHILD would get the throne, regardless of gender
But in the book before many years later they favec a similar problem of succession and they decided that the right to get the throne could not bé passed by a female relative
Yes but again that is Rhaenyra’s line, Viserys doesn’t change the line of succession for everyone just for her line and considering her children are known to be bastards their claim to throne would be pretty weak especially in comparison to the greens
You’ve made some really good points