i started implementing this double threshold on august, my LT2 pace increased from around 4'45/k to 4'20/k. i'm very new to this double threshold method, my definition of LT2 could be wrong, i usually run my LT2 effort between LT1 and VO2max effort and LT1 is just above easy pace (when i started to open my mouth for air).
Hi Sota, thanks for all your videos I watch them all. Are there any key workouts you’d recommend hitting before a sub 3 hour marathon attempt, and the pace you should be hitting? Or is there any workout that you like to do prior to a race to “prove” to yourself that you can hit your target? Thanks and I hope you keep posting!
Agree with the first part of @abkonk! In regards to RPE, @abkonk is not necessarily wrong - but RPE just has a decent amount of bias, because the way people rank their effort out of 10 is just different for everyone Some will 100% agree with his 5-6 RPE, but others would say 7-8 RPE I’d say like 6-7 RPE, but again, I’m not necessarily right either. It’s just RPE has a subjective element to it so it’s hard to say!
In my opinion, not really, but maybe as a very rough guide. And also it’ll be even more inaccurate if you haven’t done a recent all out 5k effort Threshold pace differs based on rep duration (400m at threshold is not the same pace as 1600m at threshold) I plugged in my 5k PB of 15:40 (I’m more like in 16:50 shape right now to be honest), and the 15:40 VDot Calc told me my threshold pace is 3:23/km, but I’d be running my 400m threshold intervals faster than that even though I’m not in shape now Also, two people with the same 5k time will more often than not be running different paces for their threshold workouts (even if it’s the same workout) I think it’s easier to develop RPE awareness than using the Calc. But a bit of both is good. You’ll get a rough guideline
And one other note: the “threshold” pace for the VDot run calculator is basically estimating what you can hold for 60 mins, so what I said in the video about extrapolating that “feel and vibe” to your shorter reps is still very important
Closer to half marathon for elite runners, closer to 10km for beginner runners 3k/5k is closer to VO2 max for most runners (“Closer” being the key word for all three statements)
Thanks for your feedback. It's tricky because I have viewers of all extremes. Some people claimed my 25 minute comprehensive guide wasn't detailed enough because they wanted even more random nuance which in my opinion viewers don't need to know, then there's other people like yourself (also fair) who want it even more simple I think simplifying it any further than what I have done in the past 2 videos about threshold would be leaving out important detail, so I personally don't want to simplify any further If I ever think of an easier way to explain it, I will make another video called "Threshold Guide for Beginners" I do believe that understanding the concept of Threshold is all about repetition - like anything else. So my videos are just another video out there on the internet that people might come across, and some people might resonate with my explanation, some will not, which is totally fair
Thanks for writing a detailed answer. I understand what your are trying to do. However I think you introduce new complications when you try to simplify threshold. Reference to some 3 hour sustain steady effort is totally useless as a gauge of what LT1 is for most runners. There is no LT1 “true pace”, there is a LT1 pace for “every” duration. You can hit LT1 at in 6 minutes and you can hit LT1 in 30 minutes, paces will obviously be different.
I get that it’s not feasible to do a 2-3 hour time trial for everyone I also agree that there’s no “true LT1 pace” even though I mentioned that term in the video (and the proof is that I say in multiple videos that threshold pace isn’t a thing, and it’s purely to do with blood lactate / hydrogen ion accumulation) It is safe to assume that a fair amount of viewers have run a marathon before, and you would still get a rough range of what paces you might be able to sustain for 2-3 hours, which is a starting point rather than completely aimlessly picking a pace, or obsessing over what the VDOT calculator tells you You’ve done well to explain that you can hit LT1 in 6 mins and you can also hit it in 30 mins (which we both agree on), but how would you simplify and give guidelines on how to run LT1 then? After watching the whole video - I’ve given that 2-3 hour & 45-60 minute context and on top of that talked about talking and breathing cues, which I think would be the best compromise of not making it extremely complicated and also not too oversimplified Again, I appreciate your comment is respectful and I enjoy discussion, so I would genuinely love to know (trust me no sarcasm, I appreciate you) if there’s a simpler way of explaining how to get a gauge of LT1 intensity Maybe the simple answer (thought of this while writing this comment) is to mention the talking and breathing cues before going into the nuance of how 6 mins at LT1 is faster than 30 mins at LT1 which is faster than 2-3 hours at LT1 So maybe I’ll think about the order more. But as mentioned in the video, this was more of me blabbering and it was not planned. I arrived early to a parkrun and I can’t stand wasting time scrolling social media so I’d rather make an unstructured RUclips video on the spot Regardless, you’ve made me rethink how I can simplify concepts and explain things more succinctly, so again, thanks for the comments!
Main goal of my threshold videos: put a stop to the misconception that there is a specific threshold pace I want people to think of threshold as a feeling/vibe, rather than absolute numbers (if they don’t have a lactate meter)
Always a good day when Sota releases a threshold video 😎
I know you love your threshold too
i started implementing this double threshold on august, my LT2 pace increased from around 4'45/k to 4'20/k. i'm very new to this double threshold method, my definition of LT2 could be wrong, i usually run my LT2 effort between LT1 and VO2max effort and LT1 is just above easy pace (when i started to open my mouth for air).
Thanks for the informative video on LT training!
No probs!
Hi Sota, thanks for all your videos I watch them all.
Are there any key workouts you’d recommend hitting before a sub 3 hour marathon attempt, and the pace you should be hitting?
Or is there any workout that you like to do prior to a race to “prove” to yourself that you can hit your target?
Thanks and I hope you keep posting!
It's fascinating how the pace ranges develop over time :).
For sure!
When you start tasting the lactate in your mouth is that LT2? Thanks for spending the time to explain these
Farrrr above LT2 at that point. lT2 should be just sustainable. Think RPE 5-6
Agree with the first part of @abkonk!
In regards to RPE, @abkonk is not necessarily wrong - but RPE just has a decent amount of bias, because the way people rank their effort out of 10 is just different for everyone
Some will 100% agree with his 5-6 RPE, but others would say 7-8 RPE
I’d say like 6-7 RPE, but again, I’m not necessarily right either. It’s just RPE has a subjective element to it so it’s hard to say!
If you don't have good RPE awareness, do you think Jack Daniels' vdot calcs provide a good pacing guide?
In my opinion, not really, but maybe as a very rough guide. And also it’ll be even more inaccurate if you haven’t done a recent all out 5k effort
Threshold pace differs based on rep duration (400m at threshold is not the same pace as 1600m at threshold)
I plugged in my 5k PB of 15:40 (I’m more like in 16:50 shape right now to be honest), and the 15:40 VDot Calc told me my threshold pace is 3:23/km, but I’d be running my 400m threshold intervals faster than that even though I’m not in shape now
Also, two people with the same 5k time will more often than not be running different paces for their threshold workouts (even if it’s the same workout)
I think it’s easier to develop RPE awareness than using the Calc. But a bit of both is good. You’ll get a rough guideline
And one other note: the “threshold” pace for the VDot run calculator is basically estimating what you can hold for 60 mins, so what I said in the video about extrapolating that “feel and vibe” to your shorter reps is still very important
This might sound oversimplified, but is LT2 closer to your best 10K or your best 5K..?
Closer to half marathon for elite runners, closer to 10km for beginner runners
3k/5k is closer to VO2 max for most runners
(“Closer” being the key word for all three statements)
Can we assume as a guide that Beginner- intermediate runners would run marathon closer to LT1s?
Yes, while elite runners can run closer to LT2 (closer is the key word), for longer in the marathon
It is easy to understand why viewers of this channel ask Sota to clarify his threshold concepts. This was not very succinct.
Thanks for your feedback. It's tricky because I have viewers of all extremes. Some people claimed my 25 minute comprehensive guide wasn't detailed enough because they wanted even more random nuance which in my opinion viewers don't need to know, then there's other people like yourself (also fair) who want it even more simple
I think simplifying it any further than what I have done in the past 2 videos about threshold would be leaving out important detail, so I personally don't want to simplify any further
If I ever think of an easier way to explain it, I will make another video called "Threshold Guide for Beginners"
I do believe that understanding the concept of Threshold is all about repetition - like anything else. So my videos are just another video out there on the internet that people might come across, and some people might resonate with my explanation, some will not, which is totally fair
Thanks for writing a detailed answer. I understand what your are trying to do.
However I think you introduce new complications when you try to simplify threshold. Reference to some 3 hour sustain steady effort is totally useless as a gauge of what LT1 is for most runners.
There is no LT1 “true pace”, there is a LT1 pace for “every” duration.
You can hit LT1 at in 6 minutes and you can hit LT1 in 30 minutes, paces will obviously be different.
I get that it’s not feasible to do a 2-3 hour time trial for everyone
I also agree that there’s no “true LT1 pace” even though I mentioned that term in the video (and the proof is that I say in multiple videos that threshold pace isn’t a thing, and it’s purely to do with blood lactate / hydrogen ion accumulation)
It is safe to assume that a fair amount of viewers have run a marathon before, and you would still get a rough range of what paces you might be able to sustain for 2-3 hours, which is a starting point rather than completely aimlessly picking a pace, or obsessing over what the VDOT calculator tells you
You’ve done well to explain that you can hit LT1 in 6 mins and you can also hit it in 30 mins (which we both agree on), but how would you simplify and give guidelines on how to run LT1 then?
After watching the whole video - I’ve given that 2-3 hour & 45-60 minute context and on top of that talked about talking and breathing cues, which I think would be the best compromise of not making it extremely complicated and also not too oversimplified
Again, I appreciate your comment is respectful and I enjoy discussion, so I would genuinely love to know (trust me no sarcasm, I appreciate you) if there’s a simpler way of explaining how to get a gauge of LT1 intensity
Maybe the simple answer (thought of this while writing this comment) is to mention the talking and breathing cues before going into the nuance of how 6 mins at LT1 is faster than 30 mins at LT1 which is faster than 2-3 hours at LT1
So maybe I’ll think about the order more. But as mentioned in the video, this was more of me blabbering and it was not planned. I arrived early to a parkrun and I can’t stand wasting time scrolling social media so I’d rather make an unstructured RUclips video on the spot
Regardless, you’ve made me rethink how I can simplify concepts and explain things more succinctly, so again, thanks for the comments!
Main goal of my threshold videos: put a stop to the misconception that there is a specific threshold pace
I want people to think of threshold as a feeling/vibe, rather than absolute numbers (if they don’t have a lactate meter)