My favorite spell to upcast is Command. Has a lot of similarities with Blindness/Deafness. The reason I like it better is because casting it at 2nd level it is already targetting 2 creatures, and it automatically takes a creature's next turn away from them. So, the stronger the creature whose turn you take away, the stronger the spell is. Blinding an Ancient Dragon isn't going to do much - they are going to have a huge Con save bonus, they probably already have blindsight, even if they are blinded they can just use their breath weapon, or attack with disadvantage and still hit because they have a huge attack bonus. But, Commanding an Ancient Dragon to drop prone takes away their whole turn, including movement, and it grounds them. And this can be applied to a lot of higher CR monsters. Obviously if they fail their save they are probably going to just use a Legendary Resistance, but hey, then you made them use an LR with a 1st level spell slot.
Prone's great for a dragon, but for a lot of mooks, it's "Flee": take OAs; use your action on a dash; use your *next* action dashing *back* into melee. A 5th lvl slot gets you 5 saves, each of which leads to OAs and 2 lost actions, when most CC gets you 1 lost action/failed save (hypnotic pattern being the other that can get you 2 lost/ failed save). 2 lost actions might as well be the whole combat. That'd be good for a conc cast, let alone non-conc. When you consider the versatility, it's even better.
Fog cloud is awesome for beholders, devils casting darkness, or really any creatures as long as they do t have blindsight. Forces an even playing field by nullifying advantage and disadvantage. Protects the party from sight based spells, but also prevents the use of sight based spells. Pyrotechnics can do a similar thing and also isn’t concentration.
Bobby Baker Correct me if I’m wrong but a spell is a spell, even if said spell creates a physical obstruction. A Beholder should dismiss a Fog Cloud with a glance.
Phoenix That’s true that a beholders anti magic cone field of vision could temporarily subdue portions the fog cloud spell. since it’s a concentration spell that makes the spell persist, the fog pops back up if the eyes cone is moved to a different area. Importantly, none of a beholders eye rays (or magic spells if any are given to it) work inside its own anti magic cone. This is because the rays require sight. This is how fog cloud, as such a low level spell, can provide protection from a beholder. Blindness/deafness can blind a beholder too.
GameNinjaD It wouldn’t break concentration. It would suppress any spell effect in that comes area though. For instance, portions of the fog would momentarily blink out of existence if that’s also where the wizard was hiding. The fog would reappear if the beholder moved the anitmagic come in another direction, so long as the wizard kept concentration while being visiable. A beholders cohorts would probably be peppering the caster with blows though.
Major Image is amazing for an Illusion Wizard who can use their action to change an illusion. Mine spent some down time days to cast it multiple times at 6th level and made multiple illusory rings on this hands that he can carry with him and change at will during combat without any concentration.
@@ATinyWaffle That does raise a question though. Under the rules as written, you can use a bonus action to move the illusion from where it is to anywhere you can see. Outside of combat, you could keep moving that illusion along with you everywhere you go. But can you just have an illusion that moves of its own accord, such as a ring maintaining its place on your finger? The answer would be no, unless the illusion specifically says so in its description.
@@godsamongmen8003 Malleable Illusions requires an Action to change an illusion if that's what you're referring to. Major image says "the image appears at a spot that you can see within range." It depends on what your interpretation of a "spot" is. Using the rule of cool, my DM allows casting it on my fingers, thus they move with me. Tell me this: If you cast Major Image on a crate on a cart on a moving ship, and they all move in different directions, where does the illusion go? Or does the illusion just get left behind, hover in place over the ocean at the exact original longitude and latitude?
@@ATinyWaffle I think most DMs would be reasonable and make your illusion sit still on the deck of a ship rather than effectively rendering it useless. But when we're discussing spells outside the context of any one game, following the strict rules is all I can really do even though I know that individual DMs will do their own thing.
I play a wizard who makes permanent illusory duplicates of his spellbooks and hides them in in places. Some of the places are in obvious areas like bookshelves full of real books that are easily interacted with. This makes the book unreadable to the creature that interacted with it as it becomes faint. My wizard can come back to it at any time, as long as it hasn’t been dispelled, and use actions to look through it or copy it.
One spell that I’ll give an honorable mention too is Magic Missile. As you’ve pointed out in previous videos, Magic Missile upcast to 2nd level does about the same damage as Scorching Ray but with a better damage type. Most folks who haven’t done the math don’t realize that.
@@rafaelbordoni516 It has been ruled both ways in the Sage Advice and errata discussions from the developers. So, highly dependent on the DM if they want you to roll a d4 for each bolt. Though, no matter the ruling, definitely works with something like Hexblade's Curse as many people have been pointing out.
Huh, I had never actually considered that one. In my mind I think of hexblades curse as of course, a slightly different non-concentration once per short rest hex, but by the wording, hexblades curse doesn't require an attack roll to trigger like hex does, it just gives "a bonus to damage rolls", so that totally works. I have leaned something today.
A single level dip into Hexblade for the curse, and then level up as an Evoker, and suddenly MM becomes a primary offensive tool, rather than stable but mediocre damage. Very nicely played.
@@ChristnThms Specifically so that you can over-channel, or for empowered evocation? Empowered evocation is unfortunately only going to add presumably 5 damage, as you can only add your mod to a single damage roll of a spell. Also, an over-channel on even a 9th level MM will only increase the damage by 16.5 over the average. It's still a silly amount of 100% guaranteed damage, 126 I think (if they can't cast shield, lol), but at that point, you are probably just better off doing hexblade Sorlock shenanigans.
I think you made a mistake. Major image also removes concentration when upcasted to a 6th level spellslot. And becomes an even more interesting spell for illusionists at that point
This is GREAT! I have a Homebrew section of Homebrew effects of upcasting... and you’ve given me SO much inspiration for updating it from the knowledge of the core mechanics. By for example, letting you be able to remove concentration requirement from any spell of you upcast it by 2 levels (but would receive no other benefits) I’m in the process of home brewing something like this and have been stealing from sorcerers meta magic, and general Homebrew... but NOW I have some More inspiration to pull from. Good stuff!!
In the old days, there were multiple (but very similar) healing spells clogging up your prepared spells as a cleric. Cure light wounds, cure wounds and cure serious wounds. Upcasting was a great idea for this family of spells. Unfortunately, I agree with TM. Most of the time up casting doesn't keep pace with using a higher level spell at that slot. His examples of those spells that do up cast is spot on. Since I love to cast "Glaive to your face" with my barbarian, I just wish the martial classes got something similar. :)
This is also really useful when thinking about sorcerer spells. Having spells that have additional flexibility/utility from upcasting is noteworthy given their limited spells known.
I agree. I would love for Chris to do a video on the sorcerer spell list and go over the spells and which meta magic works the best for choices at each spell level.
I definitely agree that Armor of apathy’s is one of the best choices for upcasting, it’s absolutely insane how much damage you can get off if you don’t mind being in the middle of combat.
It's one of those few situations that makes me look long and hard at Heavy Armor Master. Imagine how many of those low level attacks that only do 1 or 2 damage you'd soak up doing full return damage, and then those "oh shit" hits that do 5 or 6 are now 2 or 3 and your AoA is still hitting! A HAM Warlock would be a real bitch to take down at low levels.
My favorite Armor of Agathys build - Divine Soul 1, Hexblade 2, Abjurer 17. Use the Armor of Shadows + Arcane Ward + Armor of Agathys combo and EB/BB/GFB to fight, Magic Missile + Hexblades Curse to nova, max Charisma and take all non-save non-concentration spells.
I am a huge fan of the new UA Summon spells, and the upcast there is a great way to keep your summoned minion at an equal level to yourself, and staying relevant against higher level foes. I am not sure if its necessarily worth the increased value of the slots, but it allows you to build an effective Summoner where the type of creature you summon is a part of the core identity of the character, which I think is really cool.
more on those wights, they are intelligent. they can speak, and likely reason. so when the timer runs out they could be convinced to continue working for you, especially if you put a Geas on them to charm them and shock collar them. additionally, they can command up to 12 zombies on their own. so a necromancer could in theory have a large amount of semi-autonomous undead commanders leading a dark army.
Worth noting: You can actually upcast ANY spell, it's just that some spells don't have any additional effect when upcast. For example, if you're a 7th level Warlock, you can still cast Hypnotic Pattern. It won't be any better for you than for a 5th level Warlock, but it's still okay. Likewise, if you desperately need a Revivify but your Cleric is out of 3rd level slots, they can use a 4th level slot to cast it just fine.
One that you didn't mention that comes to mind is Storm Sphere - the bonus action zap and also the bludgeoning damage within the sphere both increase by 1d6 with each level upcast, making it impressive if you can force enemies to be in it. Even if you can't, 1d6 per round from the bonus action is at least equally as good an upcast as Flaming Sphere.
Armor of Agathys is my favorite spell to upcast! I am currently playing a bear totem barb 3 / fiend pact warlock 10, which is the most fun build I have ever played. I cast 5th lvl armor of agathys and fire shield before combat, and then rage, gaining resistance to all damage types (including psychic from the fiend pact lvl 10 ability). By the time my Armor of agathys has worn off, I've probably done over 100 damage with it, and mitigated 50 damage! At that point I start killing things with my greatsword (reckless attacks and great weapon master), which gives me more temp hitpoints from dark one's blessing (which still synergies with fire shield and rage resistance). I have an AC of 16 and constitution of 12, but I have never dropped below half health due to the steady stream of temporary hit points.
Only got to play it as a one shot, but I played a "smite bear" it was a moon druid 3/paladin 2 that could cast armor of agathis before wild shaping then smite on bear attacks.
I'm surprised theres no mention of major image. Especially for the utility for DMs. Lasting forever makes it really cool for dungeons or tricky wizards .
This is great information for *planning* to upcast. Another strategy around upcasting is memorizing a variety of daily spells which give good coverage. If/when you start to become depleted you fill in with upcasting to meet the need.
Since our campaigns almost never hit t4, the spells i like to upcast are generally low levels: 1. Hex/hunter's mark to 3rd level for multi-combat use. 2. Scorching ray for my 1st turn single-target nova option (if not fire immune, usually in combo with hold monster/person or hex). 3. Inflict wounds for the same reason above for the cleric (usually in combo with path to the grave). 4. single target control spells like hold person, hold monster, banishment, etc (usually in combo with shadow sorcs hound of ill omen or the diviner's portent). 5- spiritual weapon since it's just such a useful bonus action damage spell.
You make the best D&D content on RUclips. It would really help to have access to the visual aid you use to make these videos, though. I bet a lot of people who watched this wrote down each spell when they heard it. Not that I did, or anything.
Counterspell & Dispel Magic! Nothing is worse than casting it at its base level to then fail the skill check. Just match the spell's level and its guaranteed!
Currently playing my fist ever campaign, my character is a necromancy wizard with 1 level of fighter for those armor and weapon proficiencies, so I could play a "death knight" style character. My favorite thing to do, whenever I don't have to concentrate on any spells in particular, or have nothing to cast that would really help in the situation, is to cast Shadow Blade as a third level spell and use Booming Blade with it. Currently at level 12 dealing 5d8 damage with this, it's pretty nice. Second spell I like to upcast sometimes is Animate Dead for those extra zombies or skeletons. Alone, their damage is not great, but it can add up really fast when you get more of them.
@@SigurdBraathen World of Warcraft, though, for d&d I went with a much more spellcaster focused character than the melee focused wow version. So I'm basically a spellcaster that can do melee, as opposed to a melee character with some spellcasting mixed in.
I like upcasting Galders Tower, with a 10 foot wall and small moat around it courtesy of mold earth. I just like the idea of resting in style by summoning a building instead of cramping into the tiny hut.
Yes! Someone else who understands the benefits of not relying on "Tenser's sleeping on the ground like an animal". Give me a bathroom, lounge area and bedrom at least. Then maybe a kitchen and dining room at higher levels (or you just make more towers at lower level). Just making bedrooms for the whole party is fun. Go forth and travel in style, fellow adventurer! :)
I love the upcasting mechanic, but sadly I feel the designers omit many classic and interesting spells, for example, both Haste and Protection From Energy are spells I would have made that using higher-level slots let you buff additional allies, I believe an additional ally for every two levels higher works great. Another spell that always comes to me is Enlarge/Reduce, I feel the normal 1-minute duration it's too little for most out of combat uses. I would have made it that with higher levels the duration it's increased by stages: 10 minutes - 1 hour - 8 hours - until dispelled.
Major Image has the same upcast effect as Bestow Curse. "At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the spell lasts until dispelled, without requiring your concentration." So you can then have multiple illusions that you can simply take with you. Should be noted that moving them takes an action. Some list or warlock upcast guide might be nice, though I personally have plenty with just seeing this video.
Definitely agree that spirit guardians aid and armor of agathys are probably the best for upcasting. My favorites though is definitely bestow curse and mass suggestion. Bestow curse without concentration that lasts indefinitely is just so much fun. And of course mass suggestion cast at the high level for them to dig just makes evil laugh.
You mentioned it and have talked about it in the past but Flaming Sphere is one of the first spells that you really *feel* the power of upcasting. At 5th level 3d6 occurring every round feels like an extra PC is in combat with you.
Sleep is criminally underrated imho. Sleep gets double scaling, and becomes a huge single target bomb cast at the mid levels. There are many very dangerous creatures or foes who are in the 50 hp range, or who are still very dangerous at 50 hp, OR which you might rather capture alive. at 3rd level its 9d8, at 5th level it is 13d8 hp. That's reliably a 40-50 hp power word sleep spell. No save total incapacitation, falling damage, automatic crits, prone, advantage, automatic concentration fails, free repositioning and action stacking.
I upcasted Flaming Sphere the other day and didn't get the full use of it due to the circumstances, but will definitely try again. A 5th level sphere would do 6d6 dmg, to maybe more than one target (so 12d6) and it lasts 10 rounds, so maybe i'll get 120 d6's out of a 5th level spell slot. It's worth a try even though combat hardly lasts 10 rounds. However, the lessons of the Treantmonk reveal: You'll have two 5th level slots so it doesn't feel like a huge sacrifice. A creature takes damage if you push it on them on your turn and again on the end of their turn if they are stuck, so that's double damage essentially. So again you have the bonus stacking twice to one target (potentially). So i think i'm looking at an under the radar scenario where no one thought a flaming sphere could do, potentially, 12d6 to one character and 6d6 to 3 others in the best of circumstances, for 10 rounds. That's 300 d6 if our DM sets up the perfect test bed Also, 'Aid' scrolls are extremely cheap for what they do by most DM's standards. A 2nd level scroll might be around 200 gold and a 3rd level scroll less than 400, and so on. Well worth having a fistful of them, to carry around for days, using one for when the next fight might be tough.
Cure wounds is a great candidate for up casting because it lets you heal way more. Yes, it would be better to cast multiple at first level, but that eats up more spell slots. The up casting of cure wounds was one of the most intended design choices to replace previous editions cure minor and major wounds.
@@willshaper4695 The lack of +spellcasting modifier or +flat bonus per slot increase (that should be present in addition to the added die) makes the upcasted healing of Cure Wounds quite the disappointment in most cases compared to the various levels of Cure Wounds spells of previous editions. Nothing is more disheartening than your 3rd level Cleric using their precious 2nd level slot and rolling 1s and 2s on their d8s. You mostly only only upcast Cure Wounds out of desperation to "maybe" have the target take one extra hit in battle or because you're out of 1st level slots. And that's only if you're overtly playing the designated healer. It's not good to upcast, it's just a built-in mechanic that you'll want to when there's no better options available. That's why a lot of people play 5th edition wack-a-mole style and almost exclusively Healing Word 0 HP allies rather than trying to keep up with the enemies' damage output for their in-battle healing.
You forgot Modify Memory. This is a situational spell, it scales in amazing rate (up to a whole year at 9th level). Our party used this (7th level versions), to remove the memories of the crime we are being accused, so we did not have to lie about that day.
My favourite spell to upcast is by far and away Bestow Curse at 5th level, especially when I play Warlock and Wizard. The sheer potency of a long lasting, non concentration debuff as potent as Bestow Curse is invaluable. It may be a save or suck spell, but if you got a good spell save DC, or some way to influence a die roll (like portent, for example) it can turn the tide of battle against a powerful enemy. The sheer variety of debilitating effects you can inflict make it a wonderful spell for creative play. And the effectiveness of making a cursed target make a wisdom save or forfeit their action on their turn is incredible.
@treantmank's Temple. just to clarify you are available to upcast ANY spell, including spells without the bolded "at higher levels". a warlock casting darkness with higher level spell slots does not go down to a level 2 darkness, its casted as a level 3-9 darkness. this is important when spells like dispel magic is in play, as a level 3 haste may have the same effects as a level 4, but level 3 dispel magic can't dispel it as easy and needs to roll. here are the exact rule which are in chapter 10 Casting a Spell at a Higher Level When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into. Some spells, such as magic missile and cure wounds, have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell's description.
I know I'm a little late to the conversation but I would say that one spell not mentioned here that I think I see a lot of upcasting with. even though as a DM, I don't love it is conjure animals. it is extraordinarily powerful and you cast it with high level slots. it continues to increase in its power all the time making combats very frustrating, but at the same time over very quickly
My brother ran the Night Below campaign modified for 5th ed. I was especially grateful for Mass Cure Wounds after taking Cone of Cold, Fireball, and Lightning Bolt in the same round. Also Fog Cloud can be a great upcast as it increases radius, which increases area coverage exponentially the bigger it goes. I actually used this on my Eldritch Knight, not only for coverage, but also to avoid consuming my precious Shields. (The other two primary casters were not advanced enough players to use crowd control effectively.)
Hold person is a personal favorite of mine. I know that it isn't the most powerfull spell in the game, but it gets a lot better when upcast to affect multiple targets.
I'm also partial to up-casting Tasha's hideous laughter, and I know everyone mocks it as trash but I like Witch bolt in the circumstance where were really only worrying about one big foe the fact that they do not get additional saves to end it has let me go a whole encounter burning one spell slot and putting out good damage every round.
My favorite to upcast: Bless. I was in a long campaign with 5-6 players. Once you start dealing with high level enemies that can deal loads of damage to many PCs, having an extra 1d4 on the saving throw is huge. Additionally, giving an extra 1d4 on attacks for your glass cannons is a game-changer. Spiritual Weapon isn't too bad either since it doesn't require concentration.
It's not as good as some you mention but I love up casting scorching ray on the Wildefire druid. Starts at 6d6 and adds 2d6 per level. 3d6 if you combo it with Hex. If you can get advantage on the attacks, I might prefer it over an upcast disintegrate or finger of death in some instances, since it has better average damage.
just a matter then of comparing the target's AC vs their saves though. Because rolling 8 attacks even at advantage you could still miss a few. And the fact your potentially taking 2 turns to set it up with hex since you won't be able to do both in one turn. It's definitely fun to be a disco ball of lasers though! (And of course the extra stuff of FoD and Disintegrate have uses that SR does not)
Hold Person is great to upcast. Once, my party had to fight evil versions of ourselves. I planned and plotted for weeks how to defeat us, and then when initiative was rolled and I went first it hit me... Why not just upcast hold person? I cast it at 6th level and made sure to target party members with low Wisdom saves (we had a big party so I had choices). Only one person made their save. My counterpart tried to pull the same thing, but they were less discriminating about their targets. One of their targets was me, and I think I had a +9 to that save. Only one or two of us failed our saves, and we wiped the floor with them.
Pretty sure upcasting the elemental weapon spell grants additional d4’s at the same slot boosts as the static attack/damage bonuses. Starts at 3rd, scales at 5 and 7 slot. Forge cleric gets it as a full caster. Takes an action, concentration, lasts an hour, but has to specifically target a non magical weapon. It’s great for buffing a ranged weapon ranger or fighter since it seems like magical ranged weapons don’t pop up often, specifically crossbows.
Lots of people are mentioning Magic Missile for Hexblade's Curse, but I like it a lot for low-mid tier caster shutdown. A drow priestess of Lolth has a 25% chance of of failing your basic DC 10 concentration once, but three guaranteed hits push that to 58% of failing at least once. Adding in additional missiles increases it to 68%, 76%, and 82%. Drow above CR 10 tend to get really good Con saves but other spellcasters aren't so lucky (archmage and nagpa only have +1). Once wiz and sorc get 5th level spells they can do the same thing but arguably better with Animate Objects (way more hits, but subject to AC).
I always thought that upcasting was a bit under explored in DND. Certain spells can basically scale in a linear fashion like 3d8 for third is 4d8 for 4th level spell Similarly with armor of agathys 5hp for 1st 10 for second and so on. Both damn good spells. But fire ball 8D6 becomes 9d6 and it's so dramatically insignificant that it basically becomes a joke when someone's battle plan is actually fireball with higher level spells, Why isn't it +2d6 per level. I do get that it would make multiclassing full casters even better but still. I do understand that there will be times when you don't have any third level spells and you still need fireball but that doesn't excuse the fact that the up casting just feels lame. Great video as always, i'm just ranting about 5E don't mind me
Fireball (and lightning bolt) generally does more raw average damage/has more damage dice than what the game design balance of other damage dealing 3rd level AoE spells should do (they're pretty much already 4th level spells damage-progression-wise), so not scaling well is how the superior power of those spells when you first get them is offset. They're not supposed to scale well, they're just an intentional power spike for that tier of play, the Sorcerer/Wizard's version of getting Extra Attack at level 5, while higher level spells are like Fighter's additional Extra Attacks in the way the designers built the game.
Well, that d6 is gonna apply to at least four creatures. I don't love that, either, but it's not just a d6. Also, since combats usually last three or four rounds, the upcast spirit guardians probably isn't gonna get those extra dice as much as one fantasizes.
I'd agree with your list, but also include Shadow Blade if you're running a build that uses it - at least as far as upcasting to a L3 spell slot, but I wouldn't go beyond upcasting as L3 unless you're a warlock and don't have a choice. Thought of doing a counterpoint video, of the spells that are absolute traps for upcasting? Healing Word/Cure Wounds, for example, are an absolute waste to upcast most of the time, for example.
I have a 20th level Hexlock/Silver Dragon Sorc that upcasts Armor of Agathys at level 8/9. I took crossbow mastery to e-blast in melee, and magic armor/items and the tough feat for survivability, so he's a STUPIDLY effective melee caster. I threw in one level of knowledge cleric for shield of faith (he doesn't use a lot of concentration spells), so in any boss battle, he's going in with a 28AC before casting shield, and effectively around 250HP.
I have Hexblade's curse and Hex, but fights are usually over before I can set up all of that (they're what M:tG players would call "win-more," they only help when you're already manhandling your opponent). Quickening e-blast every turn is a better use of bonus actions post 17th level IMO. The hexblade's curse is bonkers good before 11th level, though.
@@M0ebius 2-3 rounds, usually. It's a 20th level character, and in parties of characters at 17+, even nasty stuff dies fast. Think about it this way: Would a 20th level fighter use their action surge to add 6 damage to each attack for 1 or 1 and a half rounds, or use it to make 4 attack rolls? Part of it is the fact that it's an AL character, and high level characters without homebrew lead to very fast, very brutal fights. Enemies' HP at higher CRs doesn't scale like PC damage output, but their attacks get VERY powerful. It's not odd for high CR monsters to be able to output 100-150 damage per round, but only have 250-300 HP. When each player in the party can average about 40-60 damage/round, a 5 player party can end things fast. At the end of Dungeon of the Mad Mage, we faced off against an empyrean (CR23) and Halaster Blackcloak (also CR23). The fight didn't get to the fourth round. 3/4 of the party were in death saves, and this guy just barely finished off Halaster. I mentioned shield of faith in my original comment, but that HAS to be cast before initiative. If not, it's a waste of an averave of about 33 damage. Quickening a high level armor of agathys is actually a better option in that case. At 8th level, it does 46 damage back when I get hit (silver dragon sorc with 22 Charisma). It's very different at lower levels where battles can last for 5 rounds or more. Then, there's a benefit for setting up big damage for rounds 4 and 5. At this level, you're lucky if there's a round 3.
prophetisaiah08 I don’t typically go for Hexblade’s Curse AND Hex. Generally my nova sequence is Hexblades Curse into upcasted Magic Missile >> Quickened Magic Missile into EB >> repeat. Also there’s the fact that my go-to HX Sorlock is DSS, so I don’t usually have Hex up unless it’s a minor fight, as I’m typically concentrating on Spirit Guardians/Hypnotic Pattern.
Magic Missile is an invaluable upcast in a very specific situation: when you are facing an enemy spellcaster with a high Concentration Save and you absolutely have to break its Concentration. Use for example a 5th level slot and now your foe has to make seven (7!) DC 10 Concentration Saves. In my head canon Magic Missile was originally created by feuding Wizards to break their adversaries' Concentration. And Shield was developed to counter that; the +5 to AC was just a nice little side effect.
@@bobbugoff7216 Indeed the RAW seem to suggest that but Crawford has since clarified the RAI: www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/22/do-you-roll-concentration-for-every-instance-of-damage-taken/ Definitely a clearer wording for the spell should have been used in the original text in PHB.
9hp per level of upcast might be solid IF you got to choose what creatures those hp are spent on. ...but you don't. It starts at the lowest hp creature in the area and counts up. So the odds of getting the guy you need become really low as soon as the enemy monsters start having more than 10 hp. In fact, if you use it often, the DM will begin to set up enemy clusters with specific hp values to make sure that you can't get them all with a single cast. I actually do like Sleep, and think that it has uses beyond level 1. But it becomes situational really fast, and is more useful out of combat than in combat.
Melf minute meteors grants you two more meteors per lvl. you start with six at 3rd lvl and each meteor does 2d6 fire damage. Sure its concentration, but you cast this at lvl 6 an you dont have to worry about trowing other spells at someone while casting cantrips
I know you don't generally talk about UA, but the new Summon X Spirit spells in the spells and tattoos UA might be worth upcasting. I find them a bit odd though, because they have some things that scale with every spell level and some things that scale with every other spell level. For example, you get (slot level)/2 attacks, and an AC of 11 + (slot level). Because the damage output of the creature is so important to their function (they seem to be nearly entirely combat spells) it seems like it would be a bad choice to cast them at odd spell levels. I would definitely use 4th (possibly 6th) level slots on them.
How do you feel about an upcast Storm Sphere? It only lasts a minute, and does require concentration, but it can deal 2 instances of damage (normally 2d6 bludgeoning when it appears or if they end turn in it, and then a bonus action spell attack for 4d6 lightning) which are both increased on an upcast. I feel like it sounds good, haven't seen it in practice yet, but how do you feel about it?
One thing I'd also like to a ask. For spells that don't have that 'When cast at a higher level' does that mean you can't use a higher slot? I'd assume you could it just wouldn't change the spell at all. Additionally if I cast a lvl2 spell with a lvl3 slot, what level of spell is produced?
One good example of this is Continual Flame. Upcast it to third level and suddenly you have a magical light which can survive and let you see in a Darkness spell.
Perfect theme for the unearthed arcana scribe wizard 6th level feature. Get a free second level spell upcast. The only thingi came up so far was flaming sphere.
but again con save every round... Will that really be usefull after certain level? I hope they replace it with something more useful in the final version of the scribe. I would love the magical secrets from bard for example.
Question. When facing one or two enemies, is there any 3rd level spell better than Bestow Curse? Removing 2/3s of an enemy’s actions seems incredible if it’s an encounter with only 1-2 enemies. It can miss, but if it sticks, it sticks (in contrast to e.g. Slow). This is assuming choosing the one good curse of wasting actions unless Wis save. I’m playing an order cleric level 5, so getting to melee isn’t a problem. And about favorite upcast: Command! Command (“Flee!”) is often two wasted enemy turns (dashing away and getting back) and an attack of opportunity. That’s great even without upcast for double the targets.
Bestow Curse have a few problems: It is touch, so you gotta get close. It is concentration, and you are standing close to them. If you go with the option to maybe remove their action, the creature has to fail two saves before the curse does anything. Compare this to command, with the word "Flee" This is one save, to likely make them waste two turn, at a lower spellslot and no concentration. There are some situations where curse is better, but I personally prefer to prepare command, unless I have a specific plan for curse. (Like the whole party agreeing to try to burn through legendary resistances rather than HP of the dragon you will fight tomorrow). Interestingly, if you have someone in your party with stupid good wisdom save, you can include them as a target of your command, to give them that extra attack. (Blessed druid inside paladin aura or something) I doubt it is worth it unless your situation is desperate, or they really have next to no chance of failing.
peter Rasmussen You make a good point that Command can be just as good for cheaper. But say you’re a level 5-6 cleric in a normal party, facing just two big creatures, at least one without likely legendary resistance, what would you do turn one? Removing half the encounter must be better than any damaging spells, so is there a better use for concentration or do you think it’s better to not concentrate? Every cleric spell available. Off topic. I hate how weak the other curse options are. Choosing alternative curse effects that aren’t stronger than +1d8 damage or attack disadvantage against one target, is useless. Except for pranks outside of combat maybe.
@@nilsjonsson4446 Depends a lot on party, say we have a rogue and a paladin, I'm gonna upcast hold person if possible, and that can delete one of them. Say we have a wizard, I'll let him cast web, while I stayed on the edge of the web with spirit guardians. command, flee can be a problem, because if both are affected, we might not do much damage before they have run. I would probably round one, spirit guardians, that is guaranteed damage, and keeps them off my backline, like the good frontliner I am. Round 2 I can command flee if it looks necessary. In general I let the wizard/sorc/bard do the disabling magic with a few buffs (read haste), and the cleric do the damage and buffs (Bless, Aid, Death ward are good options). But like I said, bestow curse does have its' place, maybe you have no arcane caster, and you have tons of damage in the party, Then bestow curse on the target with no legendary resistances might be a good idea. Especially if he looks like a dumb brute. The other guy, will target you now, spiritual weapon and the dodge action is your friends in this case. Dodge and Sanctuary if shit really hits the fan. Specifically as an order cleric, you might then spam healing word on your most damaging party member, that will not break sanctuary, and still do good damage.
Excellent video - really liked the summary of different effects. Quick question, since you said you're playing an Oath of Conquest Paladin now, how have you felt about the Turn the Tide Channel Divinity? I'm playing one too (just got to 6) and I've been reasonably impressed with it up til now - just not sure how it will hold up with out scaling apart from still getting multiple allies up at once if needed.
How about upcasting cantrips? Normally that does nothing except spells which generate light. A third level Light spell will displace a 2nd level darkness spell.
Any spell can be upcast.. they just don't always have any additional stuff for being upcast. RDIT: any *non-cantrip* spell you can using a spell slot can be upcaar to a higher spell slot
I'd like to see a monk build as you often say it is not a great class. And since you have made effective builds with both the ranger and the warlock I thought it could be quite interesting if you also made a monk character. You could even do a monk druid build to get the true treantmonk.
My fav 2 spells to upcast fall into the "choose another target" category. Heroism is a much undervalued and underused spell, IMO, and if your party is frequently fighting mobs of mooks, it's essentially a really strong heal. The fact that upcasting it adds additional targets just makes it juicy. Charm Person is the other. It would be popular for its ability to end combats alone, but the fact that it works in noncombat situations as well is just sweet. The duration and non-concentration make it far more useful in my estimation, than competing options. Spirit Guardians, of course, gets honorable mention, as well as Banishment.
I think spirit guardians is the best damaging spell to upcast especially with the divine soul sorcerer. At 14th level you can fly permanently so you can float float 10ft above the ground and you can do flyby maneuvers which get you maybe 4 or 5 targets without provoking attacks of opportunity. And you can still cast cantrips like firebolt or if you are in the final battle with a boos or whatever and upcast scorching Ray is really nice as well. Especially if you have 8th level spell slots and because sorcerer and clerics don't get any great spells like clone at that level a fully upcast spirit guardians doing 8d8 damage on your turn and extra on their turn if they start their. Bonus points if the opponent is a spell caster to annihilate their concentration.
@@moto2442 hovering 10ft above the ground, Spirit Guardians would only hit a single 5ft square on the ground. It's a 15ft radius from you, not a 15ft radius circle on the ground. That gives up a really significant secondary benefit of the spell, the decreased movement of enemies in its circle. Plus, given the short range, that puts a d6 no-armor caster scary close to the baddies. Love me some Spirit Guardians, but the mechanics of the spell make it much better suited for someone with some real defenses. And upcasting Scorching Ray?! Please no. Not only does the damage scale up poorly, but since it's an attack roll, you don't even get the safety net of "save for half." I mean, something like Fireball does some damage even if everyone makes the save. But with an attack roll, you can literally upcast it all the way to 9th level and do zero damage.
@@ChristnThms Scorching Ray is effective when you have effects that can grant bonus damage for it like hex or bestow curse. So it would would be 4*3d6 which is decent for a 3rd level spell on a single target especially if it has legendary resistances. With spirit guardians it doesn't need to be touching the ground against all medium or greater sized enemies they are 2 squares tall so hovering barely has any effect. The main advantage is you can pop up and out of reach of most creatures melee attacks whilst still getting them in the area of effect. And most people will find a way to get either light or medium armor with a caster so the sorcerer will likely have 20 armour even without great hitpoints and if it is low on hitpoints it can always retreat and use ranged spells. And if a sorcerer (at 14th level has 104 hit points) is taking more than 100 hitpoints worth of damage in a turn something else has gone terribly wrong. And you wouldn't be using the they start their turn in the aoe you would use the first time they enter it so you only have to do flybys and you could get 4 or 5 in very easily.
@@moto2442 no, no, and no. 4x3d6 against a single target isn't a terribly efficient use of a 3rd level slot, and you're ignoring misses. As pointed out, the "save for half" spells end up being more efficient, simply because they always do at least some damage. Keep in mind that by the time you have 3rd level slots, your cantrips have scaled, meaning that even firebolt has an average damage of 11. 3d6 has an average value of only 10.5. Math matters. Rules for area effects count them as ground squares. So you either use the rules, or make up your own. But if you're making up rules, you can't then compare them to those in the book. I understand that what you describe makes sense in the real world, but it's not how area effects are calculated in the game. And... Spirit Guardians doesn't do damage on YOUR turn, it does damage on the TARGET'S turn. So no, again, you can't just fly up if you're using the spell. If you fly out of the target's reach, you're also not affecting them. At that point, you've lost whatever value the spell has by your own action, not the intrinsic value of the spell. And... no, most casters will not have a 20 AC. At level 5 you have a single ASI at most. That means that a 16 dex and Mage Armor can turn into an 18 dex and Mage Armor, for a 17. A Hexblade MC is smart, for the medium armor and shield, which can achieve a 19. But the cost of half plate at level 5 means that unless your DM is just giving stuff away, few have it. Realistically, Scale and a shield, for a 17, is about what more med armor users will have at lower levels. Compare that to a Cleric, who starts with an AC of 18 with starter gear, and a couple more hp. Even at higher levels, a caster who sinks his ASIs into dex to raise his AC is underperforming in every other area, so not being considered. So once again, as good as the spell Spirit Guardians is, it isn't a particularly good option for most Divine Soul Sorcerers. Even once they're high enough level to be able to fly, there are plenty of reasons that it's not a terribly good spell for them.
at 2:34 maybe you just meant that you don't benefit from a bonus unless it says at higher levels and I misunderstood your phrasing. You actually can upcast spells with no benefit otherwise you couldn't cast shield as a warlock. on pg 201 of phb "When a character casts a spell, he or she expends a spell slot of that spell's level or higher, effectively "filling" a slot with the spell. You can think of a spell slot as a groove of a certain size - small for a 1st-level slot, larger for a spell of higher level. A 1st-level spell fits into a slot of any size, but a 9th-level spell fits only in a 9th-level slot." Now would you want to maybe if a shield spell is going to stop you from dying this turn I'd 100% say worth it.
If you don't think Bestow Curse is a good spell as is, you are super wrong. My DM considered banning me from using that spell because of how often I took his big bads out of the picture with it. The effect that forces a creature to make a wisdom save every turn or do nothing, can be super clutch.
I need some spells that raise the DC when upcast. What's that? Yes I'm a wizard in Avernus. In fact considering the adventure has been out for a while I'd love to hear your suggestions for wizards in save unfriendly/high resistance environments. Currently I'm focusing on buffs and what environmental cc I can.
Something I was talking about on DND tiktok that I'll be trying out is giving concentration spells the option to cast it at twice its level you can choose not to scale it and remove the concentration requirements.
So if a spell, like Synaptic Static, has no "At Higher Levels" information, does this mean that it cannot be upcast or that doing so simply offers no benefit? The info on casting at a higher level in PHB doesn't make it clear. (And it just seems odd to me that you cannot increase the damage of that spell by upcasting it.)
You can always use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell, but in this video I'm only going over spells that have improved mechanics with higher level casting.
True. Though Sleep is actually a pretty bad spell at higher levels except against adds, since its pool is distributed by highest hp of chosen targets first. Feel like itd be better if it started weaker but didnt distribute. Just went AOE. But that'd also be really strong so idk
You made a pretty big mistake in the video. Around 2:35 you say that some spells are available to upcast and others aren't, but that's false. Every spell can be upcast, just not all of them grant mechanical benefits for it.
Semantics. Typically, we do not refer to what you are talking about as “upcasting”. We use this term in the vernacular sense, when we are improving the effect of the spell . What you are referring to then, is merely using a higher spell slot to cast a given spell. I am not then “upcasting” a Misty Step when I use a 3rd level slot, I am merely “casting” Misty Step, and using whatever spell slot I may have remaining.
@@roberttschaefer Upcasting is upcasting regardless if the spell is improved or not. I see many people make the mistake of thinking you can't upcast spells like dimension door. Since it's such an often made mistake I wouldn't shelve it away as mere semantics
Erik Cobra I understand that, but I’m contesting your assertion that Chris “made a big mistake”. He is definitely talking about upcasting the effect of a spell. It’s a simple RAW that any caster can use a higher slot to cast a spell that doesn’t have any upcasting benefit.
Since Witch Bolt's range is only 30 feet, and it ends if the enemy moves out of that range, it is only useful if the enemy's movement is locked down in some way, typically if another party member is focusing on that, like a grappler or another spellcaster. Also, reread the spell's description again, the upcast bonus damage is only on the initial hit. (If your DM rules the upcast effects the continual damage, that's very understandable, though, since everyone complains about how hard it is to get real usefulness out of Witch Bolt.)
show the spells u are talking, didnt know what bestow curse does for instance so u talking about duration didnt mean much to me.. longer duration of what?
I've always maintained that upcasting Grease increases the quality of the grease. There is no mechanical benefit. *Suggestions welcome!*
Level 1: Awful, stinking slime
Level 2: Pond scum
Level 3: Motor oil
Level 4: Animal grease
Level 5: Vegetable oil
Level 6: Peanut oil
Level 7:
Level 8:
Level 9: The finest organic olive oil
Could make some good gold. Organic Olive oil is expensive. How much could a lv 9 olive oil go for?
2: stinking slime
3: slime
4: cheap vegetable oil (just vegetable oil?)
5: vegetable oil (peanut oil?)
6: old olive oil
7: olive oil
8: extra virgin olive oil
I think 5th should be peanut oil. It's a neutral oil in terms of flavor.
Edits made
@@arsarma1808 Donezo!
Mandatory video for warlocks.
Truth!
My favorite spell to upcast is Command. Has a lot of similarities with Blindness/Deafness. The reason I like it better is because casting it at 2nd level it is already targetting 2 creatures, and it automatically takes a creature's next turn away from them. So, the stronger the creature whose turn you take away, the stronger the spell is. Blinding an Ancient Dragon isn't going to do much - they are going to have a huge Con save bonus, they probably already have blindsight, even if they are blinded they can just use their breath weapon, or attack with disadvantage and still hit because they have a huge attack bonus. But, Commanding an Ancient Dragon to drop prone takes away their whole turn, including movement, and it grounds them. And this can be applied to a lot of higher CR monsters. Obviously if they fail their save they are probably going to just use a Legendary Resistance, but hey, then you made them use an LR with a 1st level spell slot.
Prone's great for a dragon, but for a lot of mooks, it's "Flee": take OAs; use your action on a dash; use your *next* action dashing *back* into melee. A 5th lvl slot gets you 5 saves, each of which leads to OAs and 2 lost actions, when most CC gets you 1 lost action/failed save (hypnotic pattern being the other that can get you 2 lost/ failed save). 2 lost actions might as well be the whole combat. That'd be good for a conc cast, let alone non-conc. When you consider the versatility, it's even better.
Fog Cloud. Its a situational spell, but sometimes being able to heavily obscure a huge area has its uses.
Fog cloud is awesome for beholders, devils casting darkness, or really any creatures as long as they do t have blindsight.
Forces an even playing field by nullifying advantage and disadvantage. Protects the party from sight based spells, but also prevents the use of sight based spells.
Pyrotechnics can do a similar thing and also isn’t concentration.
Bobby Baker Correct me if I’m wrong but a spell is a spell, even if said spell creates a physical obstruction. A Beholder should dismiss a Fog Cloud with a glance.
Phoenix
That’s true that a beholders anti magic cone field of vision could temporarily subdue portions the fog cloud spell. since it’s a concentration spell that makes the spell persist, the fog pops back up if the eyes cone is moved to a different area.
Importantly, none of a beholders eye rays (or magic spells if any are given to it) work inside its own anti magic cone. This is because the rays require sight. This is how fog cloud, as such a low level spell, can provide protection from a beholder.
Blindness/deafness can blind a beholder too.
GameNinjaD
It wouldn’t break concentration. It would suppress any spell effect in that comes area though. For instance, portions of the fog would momentarily blink out of existence if that’s also where the wizard was hiding.
The fog would reappear if the beholder moved the anitmagic come in another direction, so long as the wizard kept concentration while being visiable. A beholders cohorts would probably be peppering the caster with blows though.
Major Image!
Very popular to Upcast to remove concentration.
But other than that small quibble an excellent video
Major Image is amazing for an Illusion Wizard who can use their action to change an illusion. Mine spent some down time days to cast it multiple times at 6th level and made multiple illusory rings on this hands that he can carry with him and change at will during combat without any concentration.
@@ATinyWaffle That does raise a question though. Under the rules as written, you can use a bonus action to move the illusion from where it is to anywhere you can see. Outside of combat, you could keep moving that illusion along with you everywhere you go. But can you just have an illusion that moves of its own accord, such as a ring maintaining its place on your finger? The answer would be no, unless the illusion specifically says so in its description.
@@godsamongmen8003 Malleable Illusions requires an Action to change an illusion if that's what you're referring to. Major image says "the image appears at a spot that you can see within range." It depends on what your interpretation of a "spot" is. Using the rule of cool, my DM allows casting it on my fingers, thus they move with me. Tell me this: If you cast Major Image on a crate on a cart on a moving ship, and they all move in different directions, where does the illusion go? Or does the illusion just get left behind, hover in place over the ocean at the exact original longitude and latitude?
@@ATinyWaffle I think most DMs would be reasonable and make your illusion sit still on the deck of a ship rather than effectively rendering it useless. But when we're discussing spells outside the context of any one game, following the strict rules is all I can really do even though I know that individual DMs will do their own thing.
I play a wizard who makes permanent illusory duplicates of his spellbooks and hides them in in places.
Some of the places are in obvious areas like bookshelves full of real books that are easily interacted with. This makes the book unreadable to the creature that interacted with it as it becomes faint.
My wizard can come back to it at any time, as long as it hasn’t been dispelled, and use actions to look through it or copy it.
One spell that I’ll give an honorable mention too is Magic Missile. As you’ve pointed out in previous videos, Magic Missile upcast to 2nd level does about the same damage as Scorching Ray but with a better damage type. Most folks who haven’t done the math don’t realize that.
@@rafaelbordoni516 It has been ruled both ways in the Sage Advice and errata discussions from the developers. So, highly dependent on the DM if they want you to roll a d4 for each bolt. Though, no matter the ruling, definitely works with something like Hexblade's Curse as many people have been pointing out.
thats why i dont take scrotching ray anymore
One thing you forgot to note with shadow blade, since it counts a finesse weapon you also add your dex/str mod onto it, so it isn't just 2d8 damage.
My favorite spell to upcast is Magic Missile when comboed with Hexblade’s Curse.
Huh, I had never actually considered that one. In my mind I think of hexblades curse as of course, a slightly different non-concentration once per short rest hex, but by the wording, hexblades curse doesn't require an attack roll to trigger like hex does, it just gives "a bonus to damage rolls", so that totally works. I have leaned something today.
Yep, that's a powerful combo.
Random Party, looking for _wands of magic missile_ : "WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU'RE *OUT* AGAIN!?"
A single level dip into Hexblade for the curse, and then level up as an Evoker, and suddenly MM becomes a primary offensive tool, rather than stable but mediocre damage. Very nicely played.
@@ChristnThms Specifically so that you can over-channel, or for empowered evocation? Empowered evocation is unfortunately only going to add presumably 5 damage, as you can only add your mod to a single damage roll of a spell. Also, an over-channel on even a 9th level MM will only increase the damage by 16.5 over the average. It's still a silly amount of 100% guaranteed damage, 126 I think (if they can't cast shield, lol), but at that point, you are probably just better off doing hexblade Sorlock shenanigans.
I think you made a mistake.
Major image also removes concentration when upcasted to a 6th level spellslot.
And becomes an even more interesting spell for illusionists at that point
Yep, my memory failed me
This is GREAT! I have a Homebrew section of Homebrew effects of upcasting... and you’ve given me SO much inspiration for updating it from the knowledge of the core mechanics. By for example, letting you be able to remove concentration requirement from any spell of you upcast it by 2 levels (but would receive no other benefits) I’m in the process of home brewing something like this and have been stealing from sorcerers meta magic, and general Homebrew... but NOW I have some
More inspiration to pull from. Good stuff!!
Do you put up your homebrew upcasts online somewhere. I'd love to see them.
Malingoth I do not sadly! Was one of the side projects I’ve been working on, but this video has given me motivation to work on that more!
I definitely think upcasting has tons of untapped design potential.
M0ebius exactly! Like he said, casting a higher level spell is almost always better than upcasting... I think that’s a problem! 😆
In the old days, there were multiple (but very similar) healing spells clogging up your prepared spells as a cleric. Cure light wounds, cure wounds and cure serious wounds. Upcasting was a great idea for this family of spells. Unfortunately, I agree with TM. Most of the time up casting doesn't keep pace with using a higher level spell at that slot.
His examples of those spells that do up cast is spot on.
Since I love to cast "Glaive to your face" with my barbarian, I just wish the martial classes got something similar. :)
You're barbarian is like a warlock. Glaive to the face is always cast at highest level!
This is also really useful when thinking about sorcerer spells. Having spells that have additional flexibility/utility from upcasting is noteworthy given their limited spells known.
I agree. I would love for Chris to do a video on the sorcerer spell list and go over the spells and which meta magic works the best for choices at each spell level.
I definitely agree that Armor of apathy’s is one of the best choices for upcasting, it’s absolutely insane how much damage you can get off if you don’t mind being in the middle of combat.
"I don't care what you think. You can't engage me"
...
Ooooor maybe Armor of Agathys =-D
It's one of those few situations that makes me look long and hard at Heavy Armor Master. Imagine how many of those low level attacks that only do 1 or 2 damage you'd soak up doing full return damage, and then those "oh shit" hits that do 5 or 6 are now 2 or 3 and your AoA is still hitting!
A HAM Warlock would be a real bitch to take down at low levels.
My favorite Armor of Agathys build - Divine Soul 1, Hexblade 2, Abjurer 17. Use the Armor of Shadows + Arcane Ward + Armor of Agathys combo and EB/BB/GFB to fight, Magic Missile + Hexblades Curse to nova, max Charisma and take all non-save non-concentration spells.
As long as you just use it when it's going to be most effective its great. Fighting a giant ogre? Not worth it, bunch of gnolls? Put them on ice
Stack it with Arcane Ward and Fire Shield...
I am a huge fan of the new UA Summon spells, and the upcast there is a great way to keep your summoned minion at an equal level to yourself, and staying relevant against higher level foes. I am not sure if its necessarily worth the increased value of the slots, but it allows you to build an effective Summoner where the type of creature you summon is a part of the core identity of the character, which I think is really cool.
more on those wights, they are intelligent. they can speak, and likely reason. so when the timer runs out they could be convinced to continue working for you, especially if you put a Geas on them to charm them and shock collar them.
additionally, they can command up to 12 zombies on their own. so a necromancer could in theory have a large amount of semi-autonomous undead commanders leading a dark army.
Worth noting: You can actually upcast ANY spell, it's just that some spells don't have any additional effect when upcast. For example, if you're a 7th level Warlock, you can still cast Hypnotic Pattern. It won't be any better for you than for a 5th level Warlock, but it's still okay. Likewise, if you desperately need a Revivify but your Cleric is out of 3rd level slots, they can use a 4th level slot to cast it just fine.
One that you didn't mention that comes to mind is Storm Sphere - the bonus action zap and also the bludgeoning damage within the sphere both increase by 1d6 with each level upcast, making it impressive if you can force enemies to be in it. Even if you can't, 1d6 per round from the bonus action is at least equally as good an upcast as Flaming Sphere.
Armor of Agathys is my favorite spell to upcast! I am currently playing a bear totem barb 3 / fiend pact warlock 10, which is the most fun build I have ever played. I cast 5th lvl armor of agathys and fire shield before combat, and then rage, gaining resistance to all damage types (including psychic from the fiend pact lvl 10 ability). By the time my Armor of agathys has worn off, I've probably done over 100 damage with it, and mitigated 50 damage! At that point I start killing things with my greatsword (reckless attacks and great weapon master), which gives me more temp hitpoints from dark one's blessing (which still synergies with fire shield and rage resistance). I have an AC of 16 and constitution of 12, but I have never dropped below half health due to the steady stream of temporary hit points.
Only got to play it as a one shot, but I played a "smite bear" it was a moon druid 3/paladin 2 that could cast armor of agathis before wild shaping then smite on bear attacks.
I'm surprised theres no mention of major image. Especially for the utility for DMs. Lasting forever makes it really cool for dungeons or tricky wizards .
This is great information for *planning* to upcast. Another strategy around upcasting is memorizing a variety of daily spells which give good coverage. If/when you start to become depleted you fill in with upcasting to meet the need.
Since our campaigns almost never hit t4, the spells i like to upcast are generally low levels:
1. Hex/hunter's mark to 3rd level for multi-combat use.
2. Scorching ray for my 1st turn single-target nova option (if not fire immune, usually in combo with hold monster/person or hex).
3. Inflict wounds for the same reason above for the cleric (usually in combo with path to the grave).
4. single target control spells like hold person, hold monster, banishment, etc (usually in combo with shadow sorcs hound of ill omen or the diviner's portent).
5- spiritual weapon since it's just such a useful bonus action damage spell.
You make the best D&D content on RUclips. It would really help to have access to the visual aid you use to make these videos, though. I bet a lot of people who watched this wrote down each spell when they heard it. Not that I did, or anything.
Counterspell & Dispel Magic!
Nothing is worse than casting it at its base level to then fail the skill check. Just match the spell's level and its guaranteed!
Currently playing my fist ever campaign, my character is a necromancy wizard with 1 level of fighter for those armor and weapon proficiencies, so I could play a "death knight" style character.
My favorite thing to do, whenever I don't have to concentrate on any spells in particular, or have nothing to cast that would really help in the situation, is to cast Shadow Blade as a third level spell and use Booming Blade with it.
Currently at level 12 dealing 5d8 damage with this, it's pretty nice.
Second spell I like to upcast sometimes is Animate Dead for those extra zombies or skeletons. Alone, their damage is not great, but it can add up really fast when you get more of them.
What's your source/inspiration for "Death knight" ? EverQuest or something else?
@@SigurdBraathen World of Warcraft, though, for d&d I went with a much more spellcaster focused character than the melee focused wow version. So I'm basically a spellcaster that can do melee, as opposed to a melee character with some spellcasting mixed in.
I like upcasting Galders Tower, with a 10 foot wall and small moat around it courtesy of mold earth. I just like the idea of resting in style by summoning a building instead of cramping into the tiny hut.
Yes! Someone else who understands the benefits of not relying on "Tenser's sleeping on the ground like an animal". Give me a bathroom, lounge area and bedrom at least. Then maybe a kitchen and dining room at higher levels (or you just make more towers at lower level). Just making bedrooms for the whole party is fun. Go forth and travel in style, fellow adventurer! :)
I so much wish that spell was better. The "tiny hut" is twice the size :-(
I love the upcasting mechanic, but sadly I feel the designers omit many classic and interesting spells, for example, both Haste and Protection From Energy are spells I would have made that using higher-level slots let you buff additional allies, I believe an additional ally for every two levels higher works great. Another spell that always comes to me is Enlarge/Reduce, I feel the normal 1-minute duration it's too little for most out of combat uses. I would have made it that with higher levels the duration it's increased by stages: 10 minutes - 1 hour - 8 hours - until dispelled.
Major Image upcast at 6th level makes the image permanent and removes your need for concentration. SUPER powerful in the hands of an illusion wizard.
Major Image has the same upcast effect as Bestow Curse. "At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the spell lasts until dispelled, without requiring your concentration." So you can then have multiple illusions that you can simply take with you. Should be noted that moving them takes an action.
Some list or warlock upcast guide might be nice, though I personally have plenty with just seeing this video.
Definitely agree that spirit guardians aid and armor of agathys are probably the best for upcasting. My favorites though is definitely bestow curse and mass suggestion. Bestow curse without concentration that lasts indefinitely is just so much fun. And of course mass suggestion cast at the high level for them to dig just makes evil laugh.
You mentioned it and have talked about it in the past but Flaming Sphere is one of the first spells that you really *feel* the power of upcasting. At 5th level 3d6 occurring every round feels like an extra PC is in combat with you.
Sleep is criminally underrated imho. Sleep gets double scaling, and becomes a huge single target bomb cast at the mid levels. There are many very dangerous creatures or foes who are in the 50 hp range, or who are still very dangerous at 50 hp, OR which you might rather capture alive. at 3rd level its 9d8, at 5th level it is 13d8 hp. That's reliably a 40-50 hp power word sleep spell. No save total incapacitation, falling damage, automatic crits, prone, advantage, automatic concentration fails, free repositioning and action stacking.
I upcasted Flaming Sphere the other day and didn't get the full use of it due to the circumstances, but will definitely try again. A 5th level sphere would do 6d6 dmg, to maybe more than one target (so 12d6) and it lasts 10 rounds, so maybe i'll get 120 d6's out of a 5th level spell slot. It's worth a try even though combat hardly lasts 10 rounds. However, the lessons of the Treantmonk reveal:
You'll have two 5th level slots so it doesn't feel like a huge sacrifice. A creature takes damage if you push it on them on your turn and again on the end of their turn if they are stuck, so that's double damage essentially. So again you have the bonus stacking twice to one target (potentially). So i think i'm looking at an under the radar scenario where no one thought a flaming sphere could do, potentially, 12d6 to one character and 6d6 to 3 others in the best of circumstances, for 10 rounds. That's 300 d6 if our DM sets up the perfect test bed
Also, 'Aid' scrolls are extremely cheap for what they do by most DM's standards. A 2nd level scroll might be around 200 gold and a 3rd level scroll less than 400, and so on. Well worth having a fistful of them, to carry around for days, using one for when the next fight might be tough.
The most common upcasted spells I see is cure wounds and fireball, both of which I feel like are terrible candidates for upcasting
Spirit Guardians at my table. Also Magic Missile (+Hexblades Curse). Occasionally Armor of Agathys.
If you can get 5+ enemies under the fireball, it's worth upcasting. No concentration needed, quick boom.
Cure wounds is a great candidate for up casting because it lets you heal way more. Yes, it would be better to cast multiple at first level, but that eats up more spell slots. The up casting of cure wounds was one of the most intended design choices to replace previous editions cure minor and major wounds.
@@willshaper4695 it's certainly better than upcasting healing word
@@willshaper4695 The lack of +spellcasting modifier or +flat bonus per slot increase (that should be present in addition to the added die) makes the upcasted healing of Cure Wounds quite the disappointment in most cases compared to the various levels of Cure Wounds spells of previous editions. Nothing is more disheartening than your 3rd level Cleric using their precious 2nd level slot and rolling 1s and 2s on their d8s. You mostly only only upcast Cure Wounds out of desperation to "maybe" have the target take one extra hit in battle or because you're out of 1st level slots. And that's only if you're overtly playing the designated healer. It's not good to upcast, it's just a built-in mechanic that you'll want to when there's no better options available.
That's why a lot of people play 5th edition wack-a-mole style and almost exclusively Healing Word 0 HP allies rather than trying to keep up with the enemies' damage output for their in-battle healing.
You forgot Modify Memory. This is a situational spell, it scales in amazing rate (up to a whole year at 9th level). Our party used this (7th level versions), to remove the memories of the crime we are being accused, so we did not have to lie about that day.
My favourite spell to upcast is by far and away Bestow Curse at 5th level, especially when I play Warlock and Wizard. The sheer potency of a long lasting, non concentration debuff as potent as Bestow Curse is invaluable. It may be a save or suck spell, but if you got a good spell save DC, or some way to influence a die roll (like portent, for example) it can turn the tide of battle against a powerful enemy.
The sheer variety of debilitating effects you can inflict make it a wonderful spell for creative play. And the effectiveness of making a cursed target make a wisdom save or forfeit their action on their turn is incredible.
@treantmank's Temple. just to clarify you are available to upcast ANY spell, including spells without the bolded "at higher levels". a warlock casting darkness with higher level spell slots does not go down to a level 2 darkness, its casted as a level 3-9 darkness. this is important when spells like dispel magic is in play, as a level 3 haste may have the same effects as a level 4, but level 3 dispel magic can't dispel it as easy and needs to roll.
here are the exact rule which are in chapter 10
Casting a Spell at a Higher Level
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level.
Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.
Some spells, such as magic missile and cure wounds, have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell's description.
I know I'm a little late to the conversation but I would say that one spell not mentioned here that I think I see a lot of upcasting with. even though as a DM, I don't love it is conjure animals. it is extraordinarily powerful and you cast it with high level slots. it continues to increase in its power all the time making combats very frustrating, but at the same time over very quickly
My brother ran the Night Below campaign modified for 5th ed. I was especially grateful for Mass Cure Wounds after taking Cone of Cold, Fireball, and Lightning Bolt in the same round.
Also Fog Cloud can be a great upcast as it increases radius, which increases area coverage exponentially the bigger it goes. I actually used this on my Eldritch Knight, not only for coverage, but also to avoid consuming my precious Shields. (The other two primary casters were not advanced enough players to use crowd control effectively.)
Hold person is a personal favorite of mine. I know that it isn't the most powerfull spell in the game, but it gets a lot better when upcast to affect multiple targets.
The UA summoning spells have scaling that makes it worthwhile! HPs, # attacks, AC etc
ik this is a dnd channel but may the 4th be with you. keep up the great work treantmonk
Thank you!
I'm also partial to up-casting Tasha's hideous laughter, and I know everyone mocks it as trash but I like Witch bolt in the circumstance where were really only worrying about one big foe the fact that they do not get additional saves to end it has let me go a whole encounter burning one spell slot and putting out good damage every round.
My favorite to upcast: Bless. I was in a long campaign with 5-6 players. Once you start dealing with high level enemies that can deal loads of damage to many PCs, having an extra 1d4 on the saving throw is huge. Additionally, giving an extra 1d4 on attacks for your glass cannons is a game-changer.
Spiritual Weapon isn't too bad either since it doesn't require concentration.
It's not as good as some you mention but I love up casting scorching ray on the Wildefire druid.
Starts at 6d6 and adds 2d6 per level. 3d6 if you combo it with Hex. If you can get advantage on the attacks, I might prefer it over an upcast disintegrate or finger of death in some instances, since it has better average damage.
just a matter then of comparing the target's AC vs their saves though. Because rolling 8 attacks even at advantage you could still miss a few. And the fact your potentially taking 2 turns to set it up with hex since you won't be able to do both in one turn.
It's definitely fun to be a disco ball of lasers though!
(And of course the extra stuff of FoD and Disintegrate have uses that SR does not)
If you can give yourself advantage, it's extremely good, because that is many rolls that have the chance to crit.
Great content. Thank you for the analysis. I can't wait to apply some of this.
Hold Person is great to upcast. Once, my party had to fight evil versions of ourselves. I planned and plotted for weeks how to defeat us, and then when initiative was rolled and I went first it hit me... Why not just upcast hold person? I cast it at 6th level and made sure to target party members with low Wisdom saves (we had a big party so I had choices). Only one person made their save. My counterpart tried to pull the same thing, but they were less discriminating about their targets. One of their targets was me, and I think I had a +9 to that save. Only one or two of us failed our saves, and we wiped the floor with them.
I played a Divine Soul/Hexblade and upcast an Extended Aid before our long rests. Tie that in with Inspiring Leader and we had a very nice HP buffer.
favorite spell that i have upcast is Fog Cloud. the affected area just gets so massive so quickly, you can do a lot of funny things
imagine, a group of wood elves casting this and then vanishing into the mist.
Pretty sure upcasting the elemental weapon spell grants additional d4’s at the same slot boosts as the static attack/damage bonuses.
Starts at 3rd, scales at 5 and 7 slot. Forge cleric gets it as a full caster.
Takes an action, concentration, lasts an hour, but has to specifically target a non magical weapon.
It’s great for buffing a ranged weapon ranger or fighter since it seems like magical ranged weapons don’t pop up often, specifically crossbows.
True. Personally I'm more partial to Holy Weapon, but that attack roll bonus is really sweet
Lots of people are mentioning Magic Missile for Hexblade's Curse, but I like it a lot for low-mid tier caster shutdown. A drow priestess of Lolth has a 25% chance of of failing your basic DC 10 concentration once, but three guaranteed hits push that to 58% of failing at least once. Adding in additional missiles increases it to 68%, 76%, and 82%. Drow above CR 10 tend to get really good Con saves but other spellcasters aren't so lucky (archmage and nagpa only have +1). Once wiz and sorc get 5th level spells they can do the same thing but arguably better with Animate Objects (way more hits, but subject to AC).
This is exactly why shield exists
I always thought that upcasting was a bit under explored in DND. Certain spells can basically scale in a linear fashion like 3d8 for third is 4d8 for 4th level spell
Similarly with armor of agathys 5hp for 1st 10 for second and so on. Both damn good spells. But fire ball 8D6 becomes 9d6 and it's so dramatically insignificant that it basically becomes a joke when someone's battle plan is actually fireball with higher level spells, Why isn't it +2d6 per level.
I do get that it would make multiclassing full casters even better but still. I do understand that there will be times when you don't have any third level spells and you still need fireball but that doesn't excuse the fact that the up casting just feels lame.
Great video as always, i'm just ranting about 5E don't mind me
Fireball (and lightning bolt) generally does more raw average damage/has more damage dice than what the game design balance of other damage dealing 3rd level AoE spells should do (they're pretty much already 4th level spells damage-progression-wise), so not scaling well is how the superior power of those spells when you first get them is offset. They're not supposed to scale well, they're just an intentional power spike for that tier of play, the Sorcerer/Wizard's version of getting Extra Attack at level 5, while higher level spells are like Fighter's additional Extra Attacks in the way the designers built the game.
Shalakor except extra attack happens all day every day rather than 2-4 times a day
Well, that d6 is gonna apply to at least four creatures. I don't love that, either, but it's not just a d6. Also, since combats usually last three or four rounds, the upcast spirit guardians probably isn't gonna get those extra dice as much as one fantasizes.
I'd agree with your list, but also include Shadow Blade if you're running a build that uses it - at least as far as upcasting to a L3 spell slot, but I wouldn't go beyond upcasting as L3 unless you're a warlock and don't have a choice.
Thought of doing a counterpoint video, of the spells that are absolute traps for upcasting? Healing Word/Cure Wounds, for example, are an absolute waste to upcast most of the time, for example.
My Twilight cleric 2/wiz 3 is gonna love Shadow Blade
Elemental weapon, by the by, does increase the d4 up to 3d4
The sound and image aren't in sync
Valtteri Asikainen synd is fine here
Had the same issue.
Its very subtle.
I have a 20th level Hexlock/Silver Dragon Sorc that upcasts Armor of Agathys at level 8/9. I took crossbow mastery to e-blast in melee, and magic armor/items and the tough feat for survivability, so he's a STUPIDLY effective melee caster. I threw in one level of knowledge cleric for shield of faith (he doesn't use a lot of concentration spells), so in any boss battle, he's going in with a 28AC before casting shield, and effectively around 250HP.
Hexblade Sorlocks are my personal favorite as well. Magic Missile + Hexblade’s Curse is also a great mana sink.
I have Hexblade's curse and Hex, but fights are usually over before I can set up all of that (they're what M:tG players would call "win-more," they only help when you're already manhandling your opponent). Quickening e-blast every turn is a better use of bonus actions post 17th level IMO. The hexblade's curse is bonkers good before 11th level, though.
prophetisaiah08 It takes one round to set one up, two rounds to set both up. How fast are your combats?
@@M0ebius 2-3 rounds, usually. It's a 20th level character, and in parties of characters at 17+, even nasty stuff dies fast. Think about it this way: Would a 20th level fighter use their action surge to add 6 damage to each attack for 1 or 1 and a half rounds, or use it to make 4 attack rolls? Part of it is the fact that it's an AL character, and high level characters without homebrew lead to very fast, very brutal fights. Enemies' HP at higher CRs doesn't scale like PC damage output, but their attacks get VERY powerful. It's not odd for high CR monsters to be able to output 100-150 damage per round, but only have 250-300 HP. When each player in the party can average about 40-60 damage/round, a 5 player party can end things fast. At the end of Dungeon of the Mad Mage, we faced off against an empyrean (CR23) and Halaster Blackcloak (also CR23). The fight didn't get to the fourth round. 3/4 of the party were in death saves, and this guy just barely finished off Halaster. I mentioned shield of faith in my original comment, but that HAS to be cast before initiative. If not, it's a waste of an averave of about 33 damage. Quickening a high level armor of agathys is actually a better option in that case. At 8th level, it does 46 damage back when I get hit (silver dragon sorc with 22 Charisma).
It's very different at lower levels where battles can last for 5 rounds or more. Then, there's a benefit for setting up big damage for rounds 4 and 5. At this level, you're lucky if there's a round 3.
prophetisaiah08 I don’t typically go for Hexblade’s Curse AND Hex. Generally my nova sequence is Hexblades Curse into upcasted Magic Missile >> Quickened Magic Missile into EB >> repeat. Also there’s the fact that my go-to HX Sorlock is DSS, so I don’t usually have Hex up unless it’s a minor fight, as I’m typically concentrating on Spirit Guardians/Hypnotic Pattern.
Major image also removes the concentration requirement with an upcast.
Magic Missile is an invaluable upcast in a very specific situation: when you are facing an enemy spellcaster with a high Concentration Save and you absolutely have to break its Concentration. Use for example a 5th level slot and now your foe has to make seven (7!) DC 10 Concentration Saves.
In my head canon Magic Missile was originally created by feuding Wizards to break their adversaries' Concentration. And Shield was developed to counter that; the +5 to AC was just a nice little side effect.
This is how it worked in past editions, but now all missiles hit simultaneously, so it's only a single save sadly
@@bobbugoff7216 Indeed the RAW seem to suggest that but Crawford has since clarified the RAI: www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/22/do-you-roll-concentration-for-every-instance-of-damage-taken/
Definitely a clearer wording for the spell should have been used in the original text in PHB.
Oof. Then magic missile is one nasty spell vs a player making death saving throws...
Cool video! I like to upcast Sleep, it is a great spell and with an increase 2d8 per level it scales fairly well
That's 9 average hit points per level.
It's not that great.
9hp per level of upcast might be solid IF you got to choose what creatures those hp are spent on.
...but you don't. It starts at the lowest hp creature in the area and counts up. So the odds of getting the guy you need become really low as soon as the enemy monsters start having more than 10 hp. In fact, if you use it often, the DM will begin to set up enemy clusters with specific hp values to make sure that you can't get them all with a single cast.
I actually do like Sleep, and think that it has uses beyond level 1. But it becomes situational really fast, and is more useful out of combat than in combat.
Vandrolin unfortunately 9 per spell slot (two levels) is not even close to the way monster HP scales.
Melf minute meteors grants you two more meteors per lvl. you start with six at 3rd lvl and each meteor does 2d6 fire damage. Sure its concentration, but you cast this at lvl 6 an you dont have to worry about trowing other spells at someone while casting cantrips
I know you don't generally talk about UA, but the new Summon X Spirit spells in the spells and tattoos UA might be worth upcasting. I find them a bit odd though, because they have some things that scale with every spell level and some things that scale with every other spell level. For example, you get (slot level)/2 attacks, and an AC of 11 + (slot level). Because the damage output of the creature is so important to their function (they seem to be nearly entirely combat spells) it seems like it would be a bad choice to cast them at odd spell levels. I would definitely use 4th (possibly 6th) level slots on them.
9th level magic missile so I can watch the BBEG succeed 12 consecutive concentration saves.
How do you feel about an upcast Storm Sphere? It only lasts a minute, and does require concentration, but it can deal 2 instances of damage (normally 2d6 bludgeoning when it appears or if they end turn in it, and then a bonus action spell attack for 4d6 lightning) which are both increased on an upcast. I feel like it sounds good, haven't seen it in practice yet, but how do you feel about it?
Yes, I tend to think the extended damage boosts are good for upcasting
One thing I'd also like to a ask. For spells that don't have that 'When cast at a higher level' does that mean you can't use a higher slot? I'd assume you could it just wouldn't change the spell at all. Additionally if I cast a lvl2 spell with a lvl3 slot, what level of spell is produced?
You can always use a higher slot, it just has no effect on how the spell functions. And the spell level is equal to the slot used to produce it.
You can use higher slots to cast any spell. The only mechanical benefit though is it would be harder to counter or dispel.
@@M0ebius I hadn't considered the counterspell benefit
One good example of this is Continual Flame. Upcast it to third level and suddenly you have a magical light which can survive and let you see in a Darkness spell.
Chris W That’s a good niche case. It wouldn’t just let you see in a Darkness spell, it would dispel the Darkness completely.
Perfect theme for the unearthed arcana scribe wizard 6th level feature. Get a free second level spell upcast. The only thingi came up so far was flaming sphere.
thx the answer is probably blindness. Blinding two enemies a day probably stays relevant throuought the entire adventure.
but again con save every round... Will that really be usefull after certain level? I hope they replace it with something more useful in the final version of the scribe. I would love the magical secrets from bard for example.
Question. When facing one or two enemies, is there any 3rd level spell better than Bestow Curse? Removing 2/3s of an enemy’s actions seems incredible if it’s an encounter with only 1-2 enemies. It can miss, but if it sticks, it sticks (in contrast to e.g. Slow). This is assuming choosing the one good curse of wasting actions unless Wis save. I’m playing an order cleric level 5, so getting to melee isn’t a problem.
And about favorite upcast: Command! Command (“Flee!”) is often two wasted enemy turns (dashing away and getting back) and an attack of opportunity. That’s great even without upcast for double the targets.
Bestow Curse have a few problems:
It is touch, so you gotta get close.
It is concentration, and you are standing close to them.
If you go with the option to maybe remove their action, the creature has to fail two saves before the curse does anything.
Compare this to command, with the word "Flee" This is one save, to likely make them waste two turn, at a lower spellslot and no concentration.
There are some situations where curse is better, but I personally prefer to prepare command, unless I have a specific plan for curse. (Like the whole party agreeing to try to burn through legendary resistances rather than HP of the dragon you will fight tomorrow).
Interestingly, if you have someone in your party with stupid good wisdom save, you can include them as a target of your command, to give them that extra attack. (Blessed druid inside paladin aura or something) I doubt it is worth it unless your situation is desperate, or they really have next to no chance of failing.
peter Rasmussen You make a good point that Command can be just as good for cheaper. But say you’re a level 5-6 cleric in a normal party, facing just two big creatures, at least one without likely legendary resistance, what would you do turn one? Removing half the encounter must be better than any damaging spells, so is there a better use for concentration or do you think it’s better to not concentrate? Every cleric spell available.
Off topic. I hate how weak the other curse options are. Choosing alternative curse effects that aren’t stronger than +1d8 damage or attack disadvantage against one target, is useless. Except for pranks outside of combat maybe.
@@nilsjonsson4446 Depends a lot on party, say we have a rogue and a paladin, I'm gonna upcast hold person if possible, and that can delete one of them. Say we have a wizard, I'll let him cast web, while I stayed on the edge of the web with spirit guardians.
command, flee can be a problem, because if both are affected, we might not do much damage before they have run. I would probably round one, spirit guardians, that is guaranteed damage, and keeps them off my backline, like the good frontliner I am. Round 2 I can command flee if it looks necessary. In general I let the wizard/sorc/bard do the disabling magic with a few buffs (read haste), and the cleric do the damage and buffs (Bless, Aid, Death ward are good options).
But like I said, bestow curse does have its' place, maybe you have no arcane caster, and you have tons of damage in the party, Then bestow curse on the target with no legendary resistances might be a good idea. Especially if he looks like a dumb brute. The other guy, will target you now, spiritual weapon and the dodge action is your friends in this case. Dodge and Sanctuary if shit really hits the fan.
Specifically as an order cleric, you might then spam healing word on your most damaging party member, that will not break sanctuary, and still do good damage.
Excellent video - really liked the summary of different effects. Quick question, since you said you're playing an Oath of Conquest Paladin now, how have you felt about the Turn the Tide Channel Divinity? I'm playing one too (just got to 6) and I've been reasonably impressed with it up til now - just not sure how it will hold up with out scaling apart from still getting multiple allies up at once if needed.
How about upcasting cantrips? Normally that does nothing except spells which generate light. A third level Light spell will displace a 2nd level darkness spell.
Any spell can be upcast.. they just don't always have any additional stuff for being upcast. RDIT: any *non-cantrip* spell you can using a spell slot can be upcaar to a higher spell slot
What about cantrip?
Not for the damage but for the sake of using a spell slot?
@@adama9300 no, cantrips don't use spell slots
I'd like to see a monk build as you often say it is not a great class. And since you have made effective builds with both the ranger and the warlock I thought it could be quite interesting if you also made a monk character.
You could even do a monk druid build to get the true treantmonk.
My fav 2 spells to upcast fall into the "choose another target" category. Heroism is a much undervalued and underused spell, IMO, and if your party is frequently fighting mobs of mooks, it's essentially a really strong heal. The fact that upcasting it adds additional targets just makes it juicy. Charm Person is the other. It would be popular for its ability to end combats alone, but the fact that it works in noncombat situations as well is just sweet. The duration and non-concentration make it far more useful in my estimation, than competing options.
Spirit Guardians, of course, gets honorable mention, as well as Banishment.
I think spirit guardians is the best damaging spell to upcast especially with the divine soul sorcerer. At 14th level you can fly permanently so you can float float 10ft above the ground and you can do flyby maneuvers which get you maybe 4 or 5 targets without provoking attacks of opportunity. And you can still cast cantrips like firebolt or if you are in the final battle with a boos or whatever and upcast scorching Ray is really nice as well.
Especially if you have 8th level spell slots and because sorcerer and clerics don't get any great spells like clone at that level a fully upcast spirit guardians doing 8d8 damage on your turn and extra on their turn if they start their. Bonus points if the opponent is a spell caster to annihilate their concentration.
Joseph Webley Flyby Spirit Guardians doesn’t work unless you hover in the air and wait for enemies to start their turn in the AOE.
@@moto2442 hovering 10ft above the ground, Spirit Guardians would only hit a single 5ft square on the ground. It's a 15ft radius from you, not a 15ft radius circle on the ground. That gives up a really significant secondary benefit of the spell, the decreased movement of enemies in its circle. Plus, given the short range, that puts a d6 no-armor caster scary close to the baddies. Love me some Spirit Guardians, but the mechanics of the spell make it much better suited for someone with some real defenses.
And upcasting Scorching Ray?! Please no. Not only does the damage scale up poorly, but since it's an attack roll, you don't even get the safety net of "save for half." I mean, something like Fireball does some damage even if everyone makes the save. But with an attack roll, you can literally upcast it all the way to 9th level and do zero damage.
@@ChristnThms Scorching Ray is effective when you have effects that can grant bonus damage for it like hex or bestow curse. So it would would be 4*3d6 which is decent for a 3rd level spell on a single target especially if it has legendary resistances.
With spirit guardians it doesn't need to be touching the ground against all medium or greater sized enemies they are 2 squares tall so hovering barely has any effect. The main advantage is you can pop up and out of reach of most creatures melee attacks whilst still getting them in the area of effect. And most people will find a way to get either light or medium armor with a caster so the sorcerer will likely have 20 armour even without great hitpoints and if it is low on hitpoints it can always retreat and use ranged spells. And if a sorcerer (at 14th level has 104 hit points) is taking more than 100 hitpoints worth of damage in a turn something else has gone terribly wrong. And you wouldn't be using the they start their turn in the aoe you would use the first time they enter it so you only have to do flybys and you could get 4 or 5 in very easily.
@@moto2442 no, no, and no.
4x3d6 against a single target isn't a terribly efficient use of a 3rd level slot, and you're ignoring misses. As pointed out, the "save for half" spells end up being more efficient, simply because they always do at least some damage. Keep in mind that by the time you have 3rd level slots, your cantrips have scaled, meaning that even firebolt has an average damage of 11. 3d6 has an average value of only 10.5. Math matters.
Rules for area effects count them as ground squares. So you either use the rules, or make up your own. But if you're making up rules, you can't then compare them to those in the book. I understand that what you describe makes sense in the real world, but it's not how area effects are calculated in the game.
And... Spirit Guardians doesn't do damage on YOUR turn, it does damage on the TARGET'S turn. So no, again, you can't just fly up if you're using the spell. If you fly out of the target's reach, you're also not affecting them. At that point, you've lost whatever value the spell has by your own action, not the intrinsic value of the spell.
And... no, most casters will not have a 20 AC. At level 5 you have a single ASI at most. That means that a 16 dex and Mage Armor can turn into an 18 dex and Mage Armor, for a 17. A Hexblade MC is smart, for the medium armor and shield, which can achieve a 19. But the cost of half plate at level 5 means that unless your DM is just giving stuff away, few have it. Realistically, Scale and a shield, for a 17, is about what more med armor users will have at lower levels. Compare that to a Cleric, who starts with an AC of 18 with starter gear, and a couple more hp. Even at higher levels, a caster who sinks his ASIs into dex to raise his AC is underperforming in every other area, so not being considered.
So once again, as good as the spell Spirit Guardians is, it isn't a particularly good option for most Divine Soul Sorcerers. Even once they're high enough level to be able to fly, there are plenty of reasons that it's not a terribly good spell for them.
at 2:34 maybe you just meant that you don't benefit from a bonus unless it says at higher levels and I misunderstood your phrasing. You actually can upcast spells with no benefit otherwise you couldn't cast shield as a warlock.
on pg 201 of phb
"When a character casts a spell, he or she expends a spell slot of that spell's level or higher, effectively "filling" a slot with the spell. You can think of a spell slot as a groove of a certain size - small for a 1st-level slot, larger for a spell of higher level. A 1st-level spell fits into a slot of any size, but a 9th-level spell fits only in a 9th-level slot."
Now would you want to maybe if a shield spell is going to stop you from dying this turn I'd 100% say worth it.
I can't wait to upcast that 5th level mass cure wounds with my artificer... wait a sec
12:03
Why would you cast Cause Fear as a 3rd spell or higher if you can cast Fear instead?
If you don't think Bestow Curse is a good spell as is, you are super wrong. My DM considered banning me from using that spell because of how often I took his big bads out of the picture with it. The effect that forces a creature to make a wisdom save every turn or do nothing, can be super clutch.
Nice addition
There is an error in this video, upcasting major image also removes concentration.
what about banishment for spells that add target ? It's a very good spell
I need some spells that raise the DC when upcast. What's that? Yes I'm a wizard in Avernus.
In fact considering the adventure has been out for a while I'd love to hear your suggestions for wizards in save unfriendly/high resistance environments. Currently I'm focusing on buffs and what environmental cc I can.
I really like armor of agathys
Upcast scorching Ray on something with hex.
I found the images moving around to be distracting. Love the spell selections though.
I found the images to not to be distracting great job!
Major Image lets you upcast a permanent illusion and no concentration
"Fireball is not a good spell to upcast..."
Well, thats a bold thing to say for someone in Level 9 Fireball range...
Well, if we are talking about 9th level slots, we have Fireball's older brother: Meteor Swarm.
Something I was talking about on DND tiktok that I'll be trying out is giving concentration spells the option to cast it at twice its level you can choose not to scale it and remove the concentration requirements.
well done
Prayer of Healing +1d8 for 6 PCs is great too. If you have the time, why not upcast
I wish Spiritual Weapon scaled as well as Animate Object.
So if a spell, like Synaptic Static, has no "At Higher Levels" information, does this mean that it cannot be upcast or that doing so simply offers no benefit? The info on casting at a higher level in PHB doesn't make it clear. (And it just seems odd to me that you cannot increase the damage of that spell by upcasting it.)
You can always use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell, but in this video I'm only going over spells that have improved mechanics with higher level casting.
@@TreantmonksTemple Thanks, your videos are very helpful!
Couldn't upcasting sleep be put under the "increase die" category?
Yeah, now that you mention it. I was thinking damage/healing
True. Though Sleep is actually a pretty bad spell at higher levels except against adds, since its pool is distributed by highest hp of chosen targets first.
Feel like itd be better if it started weaker but didnt distribute. Just went AOE. But that'd also be really strong so idk
@@marcperez2598 depends, putting the boss to sleep can have advantages.
All good 👍
Thunderstep can always take someone with you. All upcasting does is increase the damage.
That's not accurate. Thunderstep actually is a very poor spell for upcasting
@@TreantmonksTemple damn you're right again 🙏
That's right I was playing Warlock at the time I had to "upcast" it
You made a pretty big mistake in the video. Around 2:35 you say that some spells are available to upcast and others aren't, but that's false. Every spell can be upcast, just not all of them grant mechanical benefits for it.
Semantics. Typically, we do not refer to what you are talking about as “upcasting”. We use this term in the vernacular sense, when we are improving the effect of the spell . What you are referring to then, is merely using a higher spell slot to cast a given spell. I am not then “upcasting” a Misty Step when I use a 3rd level slot, I am merely “casting” Misty Step, and using whatever spell slot I may have remaining.
@@roberttschaefer Upcasting is upcasting regardless if the spell is improved or not. I see many people make the mistake of thinking you can't upcast spells like dimension door. Since it's such an often made mistake I wouldn't shelve it away as mere semantics
Erik Cobra I understand that, but I’m contesting your assertion that Chris “made a big mistake”. He is definitely talking about upcasting the effect of a spell. It’s a simple RAW that any caster can use a higher slot to cast a spell that doesn’t have any upcasting benefit.
Witch Bolt - 1d12 lightning damage plus 1d12 per level upcast for up to 10 rounds!!!
Witch bolt only adds damage to first round when you upcast it
Since Witch Bolt's range is only 30 feet, and it ends if the enemy moves out of that range, it is only useful if the enemy's movement is locked down in some way, typically if another party member is focusing on that, like a grappler or another spellcaster.
Also, reread the spell's description again, the upcast bonus damage is only on the initial hit. (If your DM rules the upcast effects the continual damage, that's very understandable, though, since everyone complains about how hard it is to get real usefulness out of Witch Bolt.)
I dont like the fade. I kept thinking my phone was going to sleep.
the audio desync here is BAD
Fireball isn’t a good spell for upcasting laughs in evocation wizard
show the spells u are talking, didnt know what bestow curse does for instance so u talking about duration didnt mean much to me.. longer duration of what?
First comment?