Why Curses in D&D DON'T Work, and How Someone Fixed it! | D&D | 5e | DM Advice
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- Опубликовано: 31 июл 2024
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I've never been a big fan of how D&D Fifth Edition handles curses, and spells like Remove Curse can ruin a lot of the fun curses bring to the table. But luckily the folks over at Ghostfire Gaming brought a lot of cool elements to curses in their Grim Hollow Campaign Guide, which you can check out here
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One thing I did in my games is I introduced lesser curses and greater curses. Anything that is a lesser curse can be countered with remove curse at the appropriate level. Greater curses however, have much greater narrative weight and conditions associated with their removal. Remove curse might have some effect such as slowing or temporary suppression of effects, but will not end the curse.
Any curses that are contagious when a lesser attempt is made to remove them? :D Oh look, the priest has acquired your malady.... but it was gone for a day or two!
i think if you give the curse like a way to be remove ,remove curse can mybe give you a hint how. like my idea is that if you want a strong stable curse its need 2 factros: a stron magic user(not a mast but its will give you more bank for you buck ) and a way to remove it(and a way to find this way). the easier the seloutian the stronger the curse.(so like climbing a tall mouniatn will give you a waeker cuse than like eat naked infort of your mirror for a hole meal
@@ChainedFei do you mean the priest or the curse?
Another reason to purchase Grim Hollow. Have a player who contracted Lycanthropy from wererats. To have it removed he has to have the curse removed under the same phase of the moon he contracted it. Meaning he will most likely have to be going through the transformation process while the remove curse ritual is performed!!! Yeah I was not letting him get off that easy.
That's such a GOOD wrinkle to add to the curing process, making them potentially undergo the transformation while it is happening! I love it and am definitely going to steal it if the chance comes up.
@@TheGeekPantheon Eric consider this, you know you have overcome illness when the fever has broke. As Lycanthropy is an illness brought on by a curse then removing the curse means that the “virus” to must be removed. I see one must undergo the full effect of the disease to grow stronger against it. So as one must undergo the transformation through the full phases of the moon to the one they contracted it under. I love this stuff. I spend more time coming up with the why and wherefore than DMing.
I’ve always thought the same, the only way curses or even magical diseases can work is if the party doesn’t have a cleric and an NPC would be a challenge to find. Otherwise it’s not a narrative point at all, just a tax of a third level spell or some gold.
That's why I like what they did in Grim Hollow, curses become a story rather than an inconvenience.
For cursing creatures that are not in range i would rule that you can make a cursed item for it. Like a voodoo doll or something. But you have to meet the required materials.
The most flexible mechanic to fix curses is to level the spells so a level 4 curse isn't affected by the level 3 remove curse. Up casting is required, just like counterspell. Higher level curses also require a maguffin and/or specific conditions to remove them, which can be determined by a new detect spell of the necessary level, or by arcana or religion skill checks against DC 10+PRO+Spell Level for the source of the course. This new spell would work like a legend lore on that particular curse. Call it detect curse to make the meaning plain, and define the upcast versions to match the rest of the curse spells.
This expands your fix and offers more interesting situations in which players can find their characters. Cheers!
I homebrew my curses a bit different.
You can cast it, rules as written or if you are able to add a personal item (or the blood) of the target as a spell component you can twist the curse.
Twisting the curse allows you to add an effect to the curse thats similar to a spell of a lower level to the curse cast. The duration, when cast this way is equal to the casters proficiency bonus plus attribute bonus in days.
Example:
- a twisted 3rd level curse can add alter self to create Lycathropes by adding Alter self
- a twisted 6th level spell can turn you into a vampire by adding raise dead (target must be die for curse to take effect).
- You can twist in Mage hand to make it so the target can never get rid of a chosen item; it always reappears in his pocket.
The caster defines how the curse works and what effects he wants it to have , with approval from the DM. Curses that are overly malicious, directly kill people or lock the target in an effect that they have no chance of escaping from can bounce back on the caster should the target die or make 3 successful will saves over the course of 3 days.
Its homebrew and really Im the only person (being thw DM) that has used it at all. I just dont care for the spell as it currently stands and mostly use it to curse items.
One thing I remember from another video about Remove Curse was an idea to just make the name literal - it's not called _Destroy Curse_ after all - once it's removed, the _curse itself_ becomes an encounter.
If I’m understanding you, the cleric has removed the curse from the item or the person, but now it’s … free floating, a sentient thing that attacks?? Like the old Living Spell creature?
Please explain
@@TriMarkC Yep, pretty much. And if not defeated, it could potentially find and afflict a new host.
@@DragonKingZero That’s sick! And an awesome idea! I’m gonna have to steal that one!
Wow thats sounds awesome. Not pretty sure i can make it work rule as writen but lets give it a try.
1⁰ step: bestow curse that make you an elegible area of affect for a certain glyph of warding while both are in The same plane.
2⁰ cast a summon spell on the glyph and the trigger is when the curse is about to be dispelled or another trigger if you want a murderer demon possesing a commoner or something. You can also make a curse that let the demon hide inside you or something idk.
I didn't want to devalue Remove Curse, so I only added one stipulation: Remove Curse will work as written, but only if the curse has been exposed by fulfilling it or defying it. So if you have a longsword of vengeance, you must wait until after you've come out of your murderous rage, or you have to succeed your saving throw to resist the urge three times in a row. The curse is caught out, exposed, like an animal during feeding or hunting, and is then vulnerable to Remove Curse.
It's turned curse-breaking into a narrative effort.
Was the wolf in my high school Into The Woods play. Totally get it😂. Thanks for the vid!
I've never really used progressive curses, but I do like the idea of them. In the games I DM, I usually used more flavorful curses than the basic "bestow curse" options. As far as removing a curse, I use my own house rules where the curse must first be identified with either the "identify" spell, or with an arcana check (DC=10+curse level). After Identifying the curse, the player knows what level of remove curse needs to be cast, as well as what components are required to dispel the curse, and any optional components that can reduce the spell slot required from remove curse. The only exception to the house rules I use are what I call greater curses, which are curses placed by a god or other extremely powerful entity, which can only be removed with the wish spell, or completing a task determined by the caster of the curse. Usually I only use greater curses for plot purposes, since the intention is to try and get the pc's to go on a quest. I also like to put curses on most of the stronger magic items that I give to the players in order to create a risk/reward dynamic for the item, until they remove the curse. I feel like wotc has removed some of the fun and fantasy of some settings and tropes with the way the 5e spells are so absolute in how they work, so I have had to hand out a house rules flyer for some of the spells that I have adjusted in order to make those elements more relevant to the players when it comes to the story of the campaign.
So you put curses on all you’re good magic items? I’m going to be honest, if I was in your game I’d ask you to knock that off, and if you didn’t I’d leave. Not cool.
@@kevinbarber2795 I don't put curses on ALL magic items, just ones that might be considered on the highest tiers of power. Items like a ring of three wishes, vorpal swords, or stuff like that. Regular items like +1 weapons, and cloaks of protection, I just treat normally. Sometimes I throw an item out that is above what normally would be given to a party, but it will have a curse on it as a drawback, with the idea that by the time the item is appropriate for their level, they can easily remove the curse.
My DM and I took the bloodhunter order of the lycan and changed it up a bit. I wanted a full transformation instead of partial so I came up with a backstory plot where I hesitated to "deal with" some werewolf children and they ended up biting my affecting my lycan curse giving me full transformation however as a flaw I would now be more tempted to transform. We changed the number of transformations to "unlimited", but after the first one I would need to make WIS saves or lose myself temporarily to the curse attacking any within range. If I passed the save it would bump the save +2 for the next time I did it, making it harder and harder to succeed. I thought this was a fun way to change up the curse and keep a flaw. Also we decided that remove curse would not even work on my character. Just wanted to share since you were talking curses. I like the idea of components to remove the curse too. Like instead of just remove curse, you have to have a special item to the player that was coated in silver or something. :)
Curses are poorly implemented in 5e, I totally agree. Thanks for the pointers on how to solve it :) I also just subbed
Awesome, thank you!
As someone who has adapted the Desperate Housewives tradition of naming each episode after a different Sondheim song, for each of his adventures, I appreciate the reference at the end. Much more than my players will appreciate next week's adventure titled 'Every Day a Little Death'.
I think fixing this issue is a matter of actually using the words as they are defined. Simply, a Curse as a Curse. This is the point he makes, but we have a similar issue with Hexes and Jinxes. The way 5E has Curses right now, is more like how a Hex might work, and the way 5e and pathfinder had Hexes, is actually the way a Jinx might work.
Curse- Long lasting, requires a process and maybe items to remove it, typically the center of an adventure or quest because it takes a lot of work to both cast and undo.
Hex- Not instant but also not long lasting (so could be a few minutes to a few days), not easy to remove but also doesn't need a quest to remove it.
Jinx-Typically instant, but can have lingering effects, bad luck, minor inconvenience but can hurt, not too hard to cast or remove.
They misunderstood these words and their definitions, so misused them. That's why it doesn't feel like a Curse or Hex in the game. We don't need minor Curses because that's what a Hex is. All you have to do is add actual Curses and change the names around. What Curses are currently could be changed to Hexes and Hexes in the game would change to Jinxes. I think this is why attempts at Witch classes feel broken or off because Curses, Hexes, and Jinxes are their bread and butter. If these are ill defined, then so is the Witch.
Been thinking about this for ages, had some of your ideas but you fleshed them out further. I thought you should have a list of bestowed curse, but each curse has different cast components & removal components all consumed at cast unless failed when removing and i would like down sides for casting stronger curse like they have advantage against you but they have the curse similar to a toll.
That grim hollow book is fantastic!
I just subbed, I enjoy your perspective so far, I just recently bought the Grim books and I am a huge fan. I've also felt that D&D has always mishandled curses. I am gearing up to run a campaign inspired by The Witcher, and these curse mechanics are perfect for that setting.
Thanks for subbing, and I love the Grim Hollow books too. Definitely stealing some stuff for my next game.
Bestow curse is pretty fun and if casted at higher levels you can chain reaction so many curses that make dispelling it almost impossible.
For permanent curses from a low lvl cult you can rule the same way magic itens are created. A ritual, where the magic have to be casted all the time for that duration and the target have to be restrain or incapacitated to not disturb the ritual.
Instead of Remove Curse, it could be more of a Delay Curse; it could give a set bonus to the save, or just delay the save for one day. Spending a lvl 3 spell slot each day would be costly, but it might save a PCs life while they scramble for the cure.
That'd be a good way to handle it!
I made my own leveled curse system. It's much harsher when a player is cursed or when they come across cursed items, but I use them very infrequently. I've made them a much bigger deal but still circumventable. I also removed the absolute joke that is Identify removing any chance of unknowingly being cursed by an item. Identify can still catch curses, but your free 1st level spell won't catch high-end curses.
With Lycanthropy I would say Remove Curse only works if the werecreature has not killed anyone yet. After killing or deliberately infecting someone, the curse affects the soul instead of just the body and it becomes permanent, or at least much harder to remove. Personalized curses, like one custom made for you or one you inherited from your family also need a personalized way to remove.
The way my DM sees it, anything in the books is either a guideline or a catalyst, nothing is concrete and everything is discretionary. Curses, plagues, and the like are something we end up using alot of homebrew for, just to make sure it has that spice. His versions of Weejas and Obox-ob are scarrrryyyyyyyyyy
i agree sleeping beauty etc would have all been very short dnd campaigns
Just need someone to come along and say "Bippity bopity boo, life the curse and wake up too."
Ib going to try making them living spells. I think living spells created by ritual could add a lot of features from fantasy tropes to d&d
all of this feels overly complicated to me, layering new mechanics on top of old ones that you don't like. My houserule is just that _remove curse_ can _only_ remove curses that were cast with _bestow curse_ and that the spell just suffers from an overly generic name. As for the lycanthropy issue- I'd say that _remove curse_ can only work on a creature that is still fighting their bestial nature, and that after some arbitrary amount of time (to be selected by the DM) it becomes 'too late' and it can only be removed with a _wish._
I'd also make the negative effects of lycanthropy much more pronounced the more the character fights it- fighting against the beast and losing makes you lose control entirely, while embracing it gives you more control more along the lines of a natural lycanthrope. I'd greatly play up the fear and hatred of lycanthropes by ordinary folk as a 'negative', as well, and add other issues like willpower saves vs wisdom, etc. that are harder the more the beast is in control.
RAW is not immutable church canon and sometimes the rules are just bad and need to be changed.
In my long-time campaign, early on (Lvl 2-3) one PC was bit by a were-tigershark. She rolled & didn’t realize it was a lycanthrope (although the party’s Ranger figured it out). In my homebrew world, lycanthropy doesn’t automatically force you into the same creature type you were but by. Rather, as time goes by their were-creature type is based on their personality - boarish/rude becomes were-boar, stealthy a were-rat, etc. As DM I’d track their words & actions to decide which one. So the Ranger wanted to wait & see what she would become. The cursed player didn’t want the curse, which I thought could be a fun mini-quest to resolve. But instead, she chose to abandon the char & create a new char - totally unexpected. We figured out a solution - she got a new cool char, the were-PC entered a Fey realm with its own on-going story, and eventually both chars got to meet which was fun.
@@TriMarkC out of curiosity, what did you eventually decide the type of lycanthrope the abandoned character became? Or was that resolved before the party met back up with her?
@@Aplesedjr That character ended up in the equivalent of the Feywild. I was co-DM’g that part of the campaign, and that DM had a 1-on-1 session w that player & char. We all didn’t find out until later, but the char made some decisions & actions that ended up making her the temporary Fey Queen. We met the char once more, and she didn’t seem to be having an issue w her lycanthropy.
So, shorter version… I literally don’t know yet! As Fey Queen she can basically choose any type of modifications she wants, or none at all, or remove any Material Plane curses. If I had to guess, the other DM likely encouraged her to use her lycanthropy as a creative jump point to make her char into whatever she wanted.
I generally break curse up into mechanical, ritual, and roleplay.
A mechanical curse is basically one which follows the spell rules as written for curse and remove curse. These are generally considered simple curses; however, a curse can be cast using a higher level spell slot and when remover curse is cast it must use, at least, the same level spell slot.
A ritual curse is cast in one of two ways (or combination of the two).
One method is to have two or more participate in the casting of the curse and combine the total caster levels. Then the DM can either set the DC at the total levels of those casting the curse or require those casting remove curse to equal or exceed the levels of those who cast the curse. Depending on the importance/threat of the curse, I sometimes have the removal of the curse a contest of saves for both the victim and those lifting the curse. So it is possible to, say, require three consecutive saves by the group trying to lift the curse and the victim with stacking exhaustion effects for failure.
The RP curse is one which is story based and resolved by overcoming the requirements of the curse... be that to find key items to incorporate into the appropriate level remove curse, to attempt to remove under the right conditions (under a certain moon, in a certain geographical area, etc...)
Other times I require including preface spells such as needing a paladin (or paladin of a key faith) to cast Abeyance and require the victim to perform a key step of the process.
Often I allow other casters to "interrogate" a curse using a minor ritual with spellcraft or an arcana check to see what they can learn from the weave of the mystical energies making up the curse. They have to roll a DC vs the curse and failure can mean exhaustion, actual injury, or even being infected by the curse as well. A botch of such a "interrogation" of a curse could result in an arcane blast similar to breaking a staff (limited by the power/level of the curse) and those who survive have to make DC checks or be infected as well.
Thanks for this!
Thanks for watching and commenting!
I like the idea of casting Remove Curse with a higher level spell slot, though if you read Greater Restoration... It removes curses... But it has a cost. I personally am thinking of giving Remove Curse an effect where it gives exhaustion based on how powerful the curse was vs. the spell level used (e.g. lvl 3 remove curse on lvl bestow curse gives 1 exhaustion level) and then Greater Restoration also removes one level of exhaustion immediately. However to make sure lower level parties don't just use Remove Curse right away, I would also add a rule that each stage adds an additional exhaustion level, unless the cure material for that stage is provided. Or maybe, it's a Spellcasting Check against the curse, and a failed check applies the corresponding exhaustion, maximum of 5 levels as the curse lashes back. It really incentivizes dealing with curses at the right level, or when you have the spare time to do so.
Remove curse - should have a material component of True Love.
In my current campaign, an NPC ally of the party was cursed with dissociation - zoning out, no motivation, disadvantage on INT saves and checks. Bad for the wizard ally! He was cursed by having a curse "token" slipped into his gear, which slowly applied the curse to him as the party traveled to a quest location. After the curse had taken effect, the token was found; the PC cleric cast Remove Curse, which allowed them ONLY TO REMOVE THE TOKEN - the curse's effect remained! (Worse, the bard picked up the token and Nat 1'd his save against the curse.) Looks like I was kinda using using the Escalation/Progression idea already. Anyway, form then on, the cleric could only *suppress* the curse's effect for a day by casting Remove Curse on the victim - so the curse became a "2 spell slot sacrifice" every day. A 5th level cleric who had no 3rd level spell slots available for, oh, I don't know, Revivify, Dispel Magic, Spirit Guardians, etc! [Eventually they encountered a magic artifact that refused to be touched by the "unclean", and after their third interaction, it accidentally touched the NPC ally, inflicting 10 damage and removing the curse. They shoved the bard into it immediately afterward, without checking his current hp total...]
Anyway, I too was thinking that curses require more than just a quick spell and "all better". My house rules require that you understand the source of the curse, and - similar to Grim Hollow - you need to perform specific deeds and/or have specific items to remove it... *AND* it might require a higher-level spell slot! For example, Geas is considered a "curse" in my game (causing Exhaustion when you don't follow the command), and as such requires at least a 5th level Remove Curse to counter (since Geas is a 5th level spell). Otherwise... the Remove Curse merely suppresses the curse. And power matters -- a 3rd level Remove Curse only buys you an hour of suppressing a Geas.
The other idea - and we use this for diseases and magic cures - is that the caster of Remove Curse must try to "counter" the curse: make a spellcasting ability check against the Curse's DC or the magic fails. And if the caster rolls a Nat 1, *they* are affected by the curse as well! Here, knowing where the curse comes from or having the right items or the right deeds might give you advantage to remove the curse. For example, the Imperial Blade of Jendar (a cursed heirloom greatsword) is always " -5 to hit, +10 to damage" per the GWM feat, but if it tastes Imperial Blood, it not only loses the -5 penalty to hit... the wielder takes whatever damage it inflicts (in addition to the target). The curse can be broken (and the sword put down), though, by slaying an Imperial family member in the Great Rotunda of the Imperial Palace -- the sword protects the Imperial Family against weak assassins (i.e. foes with fewer HP than the Emperor), but allows a weak Emperor to be deposed!
The spell Bestow Curse, as written in 5e, is renamed Bestow Affliction; Bestow Curse is instead a Ritual spell, with skill checks and DC targets... Dang, sounds like I mostly just reinvented Grim Hollow on my own!
Luckily I have a player that triggered a curse on a magical item connected to the archdevil Dispator, so was sitting on what direction to go with the curse, now I think I'm going to use the lyconthropy system... An have him slowly turn into a bone devil 😈
The Grim Hollow sourcebook has a bunch of different transformations like Aberrant Horrors, Fiends, Vampires, etc. I'd definitely recommend checking them out because they are all really cool and distinct.
Pertaining to Eberron and lycanthropy, would you tie the specific type of lycanthropy to a specific moon or would it be all full moons?
It would depend on the nature of the campaign, since it specifies "in the light of the full moon" rather than there just being a full moon. If it was an urban campaign where it would be easy for the party to plan on being indoors then I may just let it ride as is. But if it is going to be a campaign when the party will be out in the moonlight frequently then I may say if three moons are full at the same time or something like that.
This is why I love 3.5/pathfinder. Necromancy curses are dangerous when used right lol. I have not played 5e so I'm not sure what kind of curses there are
I think the best way to fix remove curse without added to much complexity to it is. Make remove curse required a component or the creature that cursed the target needs to be killed. Even in dnd a certain werewolfs need to be killed before removing the curse from someone.
I'm cursed right now
Yo good content but your recording volume is on the low side.
If you want something to be like a curse, but have it so remove curse doesn't work on it, call it something other than a curse. Like a malediction or something
D&D in previous editions required an ability/skill check to Remove Curse ... and the DC could be ridiculously high without a quest item to act as a focus.
Similarly, Bestow Curse used to be permanent ... you hit someone with Bestow Curse and they would suffer ... that's why curses were so powerful before.
That duplicated the upcast to a 9th level spell as a 3rd level spell effect ... concentration mechanics in 5E are kinda annoying, but that's just my take.
Yeah. I'm not a fan of what they've done in 5th with curses. They seem too simple.
D&D has many of those problems; disease/negative conditions (like blindness/deafness/poisoned) also should not be that easy to be removed.
The same is true for death. If death is not final, why do we let people die in the first place (instead of simply declaring them "heavily injured and unfit for combat")?
Well its kinda bs that you can remove a 9lvl curse with 3lvl remove curse so why not just rule it like counter spell so that you have to upcast it if want to dispel the curse. Lvl 20~17 spell casters should be pretty rare so its not just everyone who can dispel those curses.
Maybe there is no need to over complicate it.
You look like if Sam Hyde picked up a healthy hobby
I’m sorry if you took that wrong but it’s a compliment lol