How POWERFUL Is Vecna Actually?
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
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Vecna is everywhere right now, between Stranger Things on Netflix and Dungeons & Dragons releasing a new stat block. He is beautifully designed, but is he totally overpowered or as easy as your mum after two shots of gin? Let's find out!
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"Vecna pulls out an ancient Amulet of Summon Deus Maximus."
_pulls out a sledgehammer from under the table. Smashes your figurines._
*NEVER* fuck with the DM! D:
Opinion time: It's a bit weak. I'm running Vecna at 5 (maybe 6-7 depending on circumstances) level 10 adventurers, and I think they might steam roll him :/
One thing, the advantage on samurai from Xanathar is only for melee Attacks.
Sorry, but I had to, laterly I have been possesed by the Ghost of a rulelawyer. I now Remember more rules while playing, but Always feel the Need to "actually..." And correct Someone.
I supported the campaign when it first launched. So glad I did. What an absolute boss of an adventure.
Don't forget that the DM will be designing the lair and that statblock is just a guideline... imagine if he also had Wizard_Necromancer levels and items as well like the amulet of ultimate evil
So Vecna can be beaten by two weaker spellcasters working together. The power of friendship really is no joke.
The power of META
The power of cheesing your opponent so badly that they'll be allergic to it for the rest of their existence xD
Well cheesing used to be the name of those strategies but it was never taken seriously, friendship is not until you see it in action and a few doofus kids kill a god with it.
Action economy is no joke
Spellcasters?? Two fighters with bows and Vecna doesn't even get a turn...
What do y'all think of Vecna? I talk about it more in the bonus video, but I really like what they've done with this stat block! Feels like no matter what it's going to be a good fight, unlike other bosses where they either kill the party instantly or are a total pushover. #TarrasqueProblems
Feels weak as hell tbh :( AC is tiny, HP is a joke. 2 Arcane archers with absolutely 0 gear can 1 round him before he even goes... His HP needs to be tripled and he needs legendary actions.
Unfortunately, I think this statblock is a pushover for a level 15 party let alone a level 20 one. He's a legendary evil archlich with higher Wisdom than Intelligence, No 9th level spells, and No legendary actions. What's keeping a fighter from casting "stab" and killing this man in a round or two. He does have escape spells...but he's an Archlich. Why should he need to use them? Did he get this far by running from every fight he found himself in? Kind of ruins the whole evil fantasy of being an "Archlich." I *do* love his Dread Counterspell and Bonus Action Teleport, though.
For your cheese strat make sure to specify that you make the forcecage with bars not a solid wall. While it is invisible you cant target a location that has the path from you to it obstructed, hence forcecage can work with bars but wall of force never will.
I think noting his sight as a limiting factor is important, but truly his main weakness is 18 ac and 250 ish hp for a cr 26 monster. The 80hp heal is nice, but its once per round at best. Without legendary actions hes pretty pants.
Also people are saying his spell list is great, but it's really not. He has a bunch of noob trap spells, non upcastable lightning bolts aren't going to be useful at this level. Twice a day regular invisibility is bad. Why does he have fly as a concentration spell that takes his one action when most monsters of that level just have a fly speed? Why is his only useful concentration spell dominate monster which is once per day? why is his plane shift once per day and only on himself?
I think his only useful spell is at will animate dead, which implies he should have an near endless number of minions with him at all times. But even though he has that apparently the adventure lists him as being alone in a small chamber, meaning to can't make use of his mobility and stay at range well and loses the one good thing he can do.
Hes supposed to be one of the greatest spellcasters ever, but he's just not. Any high level wizard can do what he does but better and that's sad.
Even in his best case scenario vecna needs major modifications to be challenging to a party of adventurers at a level that he's supposed to challenge them. The fact he has bad initiative and no legendary actions plus the low tank stats makes it very likely he won't do anything at all before dying, making him very anticlimactic.
Weaksauce. Way too few hit points and having no legendary actions means he's likely to die before he can act against some decent initiative rolls. :( I'd deffinitely buff him, a lot. Max hit points, and legendary action and lair actions. Then maybe he'll get to act and live past turn 1. 😉
I think the worst part, is that you’re supposed to fight him in an enclosed room, with no minions to help him. Unless you just decide to escape and fight ok better terms, the teleport is almost useless. That enclosed space is also part of his lair too, so he does *want* to fight there.
Honestly, Treatmonk’s fix of making Vecna immune to B, S, or P unless from an artifact, would do a decent trick.
When I first saw the stat block, my very first thought was "That's a lot of Necrotic Damage. Hey. Aren't higher level Undead Warlocks just immune to being Frightened and Necrotic Damage? Go Pact of the Blade, grab Improved Pact Weapon for a Longbow, and just fire away at 90ft away and he just cannot hurt you."
Does this Vecna have Robes of the Archmagi? I didn’t see his 3 Attuned items.
@@sidecharacter7165 the stat block doesn’t account for any items outside of Afterthought (his dagger). The adventure they released recommends letting him use the Book of Vile Darkness he has embedded in his chest, or even giving him his Hand and/or Eye. Nerd Immersion gave him a +4 to his INT from the Book of Vile Darkness (+2 from it’s own effect and +2 from the “Major Benefit”), which upped all his DCs by 2
Vecna agrees your combo is mighty (cast Dominate Person), you will be a fine addition to the team.
I think a tank holding him down in an Anti-Magic field would be more than enough to take him down.
late but get sharpshooter at some point and hit him from 600 feet away
Always a treat to see another fun mechanical breakdown!!
My home additions to this stat block include everything one gains from using the Eye and Hand of Vecna that isn't already included (x-ray vision, 20 STR, +2d8 cold damage to melee, extra spells and charges for them ((other than finger of death, Rotten Fate is already a better version)), immune to surprise, regeneration 1d10 hp per round while not unconscious, turn-your-bones-to-jelly-Touch, and 1/month casting of Wish) as well as Turn Resistance (or honestly even immunity) like regular liches that Vecna would logically also possess. Also a 60 ft fly speed built in so he doesn't have to waste his concentration on Fly, since he can already cast it at will.
Vecna Vs level 20 characters is a joke though, Treantmonk analyzed that 2 fighters with no magic weapons can kill him before he takes a single action
How can this be? Reddit has decided that fighters are worthless at tier 4 gameplay (except for the fact that all tier 4 bosses have LRs and basically teabag spellcasters but martials can throw out 1 and a half disintegrates on an average turn in terms of damage)
@@override367 They are unless they just kill you the first turn
Fighters go bonk vecna
Vecna:
Has a head
Doesn't have legendary actions
Isn't immune to Magical slashing (though the nonmagical immunity could be interpreted as a block here from how it's worded)
Is medium
One Vorpal Crit, depending on ruling, could do the trick outright
@CcNc Was going to say something similar. For 3-4 level 20's this version of Vecna is really not a challenge at all.
Something overlooked here is that Vecna is considered a god, and could easily just chill out in an anti magic field and still cast his spells through it no problem, thus being immune to all magics you try to toss at him.
Edit: I was unaware that the stat block given was before his assent into godhood, so unfortunately he’s gonna still be gimped by Antimagic
The statblock version of Vecna isn't a god, it's before he became a god
@@inky7993 good catch I didn’t notice that! I stand corrected
I see nothing that says anything about anyone being able to ignore the anti magic field in 5e even if they were a god.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 read the spell anti-magic field, namely: “Spells and other magical Effects, except those created by an artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the Sphere and can't protrude into it.”
This video is amusing since at the last game I was in, our party dwarf rogue decided to literally piss on an effigy of Vecna…the DM left us with a cliffhanger (to be resolved this weekend) of something coming at the party.
We ran a one shot combat with this, archery itself wasn't so great because he could teleport to cover, however the archer had a bow of certain death so he couldn't regain health.
We just fought Vecna in my weekly game. It wasn't actually Vecna, just the last form of the big bad was the Vecna Stat block. There was also some adds and lair actions, and our lvl 20 party was pretty tapped out. We managed to beat him one round. My paladin got to act first after the enemy transformed into this Vecna statblock and I had Holy Weapon up. I was completely out of spells, and our DM made it sound like the big bad was going to try and flee or teleport away once he could. In fact his previous form could teleport as a legendary action as well. So I popped the Holy Weapons ending ability to try and blind him and he failed. Once blinded he could use almost none of his abilities. No teleport, no healing, no counterspelling. And it was very simple for 5 level 20 characters to deal the roughly 300 hp to kill him.
Me and 3 other players took part in the level 20 oneshot that was put out with the Vecna stat block. For DMs worried about cheesy strats like the ones in this video, just make sure your players aren't planning to meta game. Most of our players were short notice, and the ones that weren't intentionally didn't look at the stat block. One of our characters was killed, the rest of us were on middling to low HP. Obviously be wary of your players, but even at level 20, you absolutely have a chance to give them hell
Another thing is that Vecna can also cast Animate Dead as an action at will. So depending on the initiative order before getting by the players, he can summon some zombies or skeletons to try and break their concentration for him or keep them busy
I like the idea of Vecna trolling the party with the occasional counterspell as soon in the campaign as they know eachother exist.
The problem with these strategies is it assumes Vecna is alone. While his experience with Kas means he may not ever again want a retainer who approaches his level, he's gonna have a bunch of level 10-15 henchmen forming up his own "party/bodyguard" - say, 1-2 melee fighters, 1-2 archers, a rogue/assassin type, an evil cleric, 1-2 arcane spellcasters (his apprentices), plus Vecna's familiar and any constructs (e.g. Golems) he has made. Unless he's on some super secret errand where he doesn't want to "roll deep" with an entourage, you're very unlikely to encounter him alone .
cheese is more like suiciding a skeleton with two bags of holding. the "cheese" in this video is 100% legit no questions asked
Passive Perception of 25?
Me making a ranger with that at level 5: Hehe noob
Note to self: Give Vecna Shield, Subtle Spell, and 3 legendary actions
Just wanted to say thank you, I was very concerned running him in my first Homebrew Campaign and one of my players is an absolute mega mind caster and I was very concerned with Vecna getting away to continue the story but it sounds like Subtle Spell will solve this concern.
I had an idea for a combo, and I wanted to see if the god of combos thought it was good. Mind running it over?
The gist is to take 14 levels in illusion wizard, 2 in fighter, and get the spells silent image and plane shift. Any time you feel like destroying the material plane, cast silent image, making the illusion of some dark matter at it’s shwarzshield radius (the size at which matter turns into a black hole), then use action surge to cast plane shift and go to another plane. On your bonus action, use illusory reality and make the illusion real. This will create a black hole that will destroy the planet and the solar system, and then, a minute later, disappear from existence.
Seems like it’s all legal, just not lawful.
One issue - metagaming. Dark matter is a modern discovery. No wizard in a fantasy setting would be aware of it, let alone the amount needed to create a black hole.
@@haerdalis84 That’s fair. You could do any other material, but I chose dark matter because it is the densest material in the modern world. Adamantine should work as well.
Unfortunately, the objects made using illusory reality can't deal damage or harm anyone directly. Honestly that's a really cool idea, but thankfully someone thought of that before you.
@@johannesmikkonen1242I thought of this too. You make the matter, but the black hole deals the damage. Sure, one could argue that it would still not deal damage for some reason, but still, the damage does not need to be done for the aftermath to still occur. Once a creature or object is pulled to the event horizon, it’s trapped in the black hole. And things made by illusory reality can certainly move creatures and objects. The black hole will then disappear when the minute runs out on illusory reality, making everything disappear.
I’m telling you. It’s foolproof!
@Nathan Parece I mean, you could argue that The matter doesn't cause damage directly, but as a DM, I would NEVER Allow this
"He's got a Passive Perception of 25! *So you aren't sneaking up on him."*
The average level 20 Rogue: *casually rolls a minimum 27 Stealth check thanks to Reliable Talent and a +17 bonus to the roll from Expertise*
The average level 20 Monk: *can spend 4 Ki points to turn invisible at will for up to 1 minute.*
The average level 20 Bard: *can grant an additional d12 to a Stealth Check with Bardic Inspiration for up to 5 party members, on top of the bonuses they already get.*
The average level 20 Druid or Ranger: *casually gives everyone in the party Pass Without Trace, giving an automatic +10 to all Stealth checks*
The average level 20 Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard: *casually has access to Enhance Ability, Cat's Grace, giving the least stealthy party member advantage on Dexterity Saving Throws, and can even use higher level spell slots to target multiple party members*
The average level 20 Artificer, Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard: *casually has access to Invisibility, giving advantage on all Stealth Checks without needing another party to use Cat's Grace, and can use higher level slots to target the whole party*
Yeah...25 Passive Perception is kinda weak for a Final Boss, bro.
The way I'm going to run it eventually is use this as phase 1 battle and use the guide to the shadowfell book off of dm guilds stat block in which is insane
yall forgot about the funny artifact book he has the tome of ultimate evil
I get the recent hate for dnd but it’s refreshing to see content that is just fun again
I think I'm just going to make my own statblock for vecna tbh
Forcecage has a verbal component to it as well, so if you're too close after casting Silence you can't cast it.
My God, Rangers get their moment to shine against VECNA of all bosses!
1:07: technically that was a joke!
Problem with the cheese combo. Action surge doesn't let you get over the rule of only being able to expend 1 spell slot per turn. So you can't force cage + silence from a single source. Requires a 3rd caster
There is no true rule stating that you cannot cast 2 spells in one turn.
The actual rule that people misrepresent is about Bonus Actions, eg "When you can a spell using a Bonus Action on your turn, the only other spell you may cast on your turn is a cantrip that takes your Action." from the PHB.
So as long as the Caster/Fighter Multiclass character didn't cast a Bonus Action spell that turn, Action Surge does let them cast 2 Leveled Spells.
I genuinely hope this helped and I hope you have a great day!
@@yummyfrostboro2934 ...IVE BEEN PLAYING IT WRONG ALL THIS TIME!!!!
THANK YOU!
The Vecna stats was made for toddlers in mind lmao.
In your Halfling Archery Fighter example where are the other two attacks coming from? What am I missing? At 17th lvl extra attack is only up to 3 Attack rolls per Attack Action, and Action Surge would only bring that to 6 Attacks per round. Even with two uses available you still can only use it once per turn. So your first two turns you could pelt him 6 times each turn. You really need to start doing the full break downs of your theory crafting. Tell us where you are getting these notions from.
ALSO: you would have to Action Surge to use the Ever Smoking Bottle and cast Silence in the same turn. Activating the Bottle and casting Silence are both Actions.
How I fixed vecna
1 takes double damage for sword of Kas
2 he has as many legendary action as resistances
3 toss out spells listed and put in the spells you feel he should have
4 he's both a lich and archmage so spells are at will by this point so silence will not work
And 5 he's a legendary creature and a god wish will not work to drive this home have vecna reverse it and thanos snap the player that pushes this
You can't use silence than action surge. You can only action surge if your first action was an attack action.
Short answer: it depends on the DM running him.
Powerful but I've seen him beat by a gnome bard with a counterspell
Cool video, thanks! But I have to disagree on the strongest printed spellcaster. It's likely Sul Katesh from Eberron.
Sul Khatesh is the strongest printed monster in 5th edition, not just the strongest spell caster. See the two recent videos on her by Treantmonk.
Even if you limit yourself to liches, Acererak and Valindra Shadowmantle are both more dangerous than Vecna. Acererak because he has a better selection of items and spells, Valindra because she is the only monster that can officially use the entire Wizard cheese list.
@@stewartb1019 Yeah, I know. Have seen the vids. Was referring to spellcaster specifically as DnD Shorts was taking about spellcasters. But indeed, Sul Katesh likely is the strongest monster overall.
He should be able to summon liches and undead
Can't true sight see outside of the Sleet Storm? Genuine Question.
Do you have any kind of support for when your coupon code does the reverse? The item was 129.99 on sale for the bundle, but when I applied your coupon code it jumped it to normal price, even though it still shows 129.99 on sale on ghostfire's store.
And this is why they refuse to stat block The Lady of Pain.
Can i confirm something, is dread counterspell considered a spell, can it be counterspelled?
While I do think Vecna could and should be stronger, I think if he is played smartly he will get away. He'll have his globe of invulnerability up. You'll need to make V blow through his 5 legendary resistances before you corner him with your spells. If you somehow manage to corner him, you better kill him before he gets a turn. Bonus action vile teleport has no V component. His reactions, dread counter spell and fell rebuke, seem to involve speech, but not the vile teleport. So he gets 30 feet away with his bonus action. Then plane shifts. The way you beat a god is with the DM's permission.
Silence wouldn't be able to get through it regardless. Spells of 5th level or lower are blocked, upcast or not. The ONLY 2 exceptions are an anti-magic field vs 9th level GoI and a dispel magic on the same level as the GoI.
Weapon of certain death longbow and a lvl 19 gloomstalker. +17 to stealth and the bow doesn't allow HP regen before start of my next turn. I hit him at least once per round and he he has to run or die. Now I'm BBEG 🤣
Or just get a Fighter (or two) with a sack and something to gag and bind him.
Just give venca a few common magical items.
Passive perception 25 is easy to beat. You need to look up the bonuses a rogue can get...
Why kill him ? After traping him you can polymorph him and turn it into the new party pet a beautiful necrotic duckling
i would just give vecna double hp, resistance to all magic weapons and a legendary action. i dont know i think that would make it ok? if 2 archers can beat or almost beat his ass then he really needs to be buffed
He is not the strongest. Look at Soul Katesh from Eberron. He can drop meteors that cause anti magic fields in a massive radius where they impact, which shuts down everything including magic weapons - and he's immune to non magical B,P,S. So when he drops 3giant meteors on top of you, if you live you can't do anything afterwards because of the field of anti magic and your once +3 magic weapons now do zero damage to him. Brutal.
Action surge doesn't allow you to cast 2 leveled spells in a turn I don't think. I don't think a DM would allow an exception to cheese their boss either.
I think I know to what you are referring, but it ONLY applies if you cast a spell as a BONUS ACTION. If no spell is cast as a bonus action on your turn, then you can cast as many leveled spells as your character build allows. Hope this helps! :)
In all fairness the dossier is only arch lich vecna, not demi God vecna.
So let's see. Chill touch (or other 'can't regain hitpoints method here). We have Open Hand monk that says 'no reactions' and spams quivering palm. We have Matt Mercer's blood hunter class-subclass thinger that says no teleportation (IIRC). We have grappling with hand making sure he is silence. I get that this is 'Pre-Deity'Vecna, but still. Also, are there things that 'trap the soul' making Vecna unable to revive and therefore unable to ascend blah blah blah?
I'm even looking at the book of vile darkness through wikidot. Unless something has changed about the book, vecna dies while attuned to the book, his soul is claimed by 'great evil entity' and can't be revived by any means while it's imprisoned. So BY RAW, if he is attuned to the book, he doesn't just 'automatically come back' every d100 years.
As a lich, literally everything about trapping or imprisoning the soul doesn't work on Vecna.
Both of your stats require you rolling higher initiative than Vecna. Now I want you to tell me, what is Vecna's initiative?
you know in theory that works except the fact that only one spell of first level or higher an be cast a turn
That's a common misconception, there is no limit on the number of spells that can be cast in a turn, the limit is on whether or not you cast a spell as a bonus action: twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1151294046758825984?lang=en
@@DnDShorts huh in my phb it says only one down can be cast a turn
If I can build a 20th Level character whose a much more dangerous threat, this guy is severely underpowered.
So what scenario possible any player party going to get Veccna alone? Better yet not see you coming with his massive intelligence….
Vecna vs Marut when?
Thanks
If you wanted to name this series, BS DM BDSM seems very fitting.
easy way for DM to nullify all attempts to beat vecna: make vecna a level 15-20 wizard.
Yeah, I won’t lie, giving Vecna a stat block made him a lot less impressive. As a genuine God- a small God, but a God nonetheless- his true self should really be beyond things like stat blocks.
This is Vecna the Archlich, before he becomes a god.
While with wording it might Technically get around subtle spell, it wouldn't if you really think about it. Sure he can see you, and sure you may be casting a spell, how does he know that? Is he just using his reaction every time it becomes a caster's turn?
I agree, but it may also be that he can "sense" the presence of a spell being cast within someone he's looking at? Subtle Spell is such a hosing for most spellcasting bosses I think they decided to just make his counterspell beat it to prevent obvious cheese
If only you told Vox Machina this years ago man, they would have probably taken less of a hit lol
Doesn't Vecna's Eye have True Sight? If so, his remaining eye should also have it, shouldn't it?
I personally really dislike monsters and other enemies that has a aura that does so much damage. It limits players who have gone the whole game with a melee build. And yes at level 20 they'll have hp. Of several hundred two rounds in vecnas aura stifles that down quick, and that's if they take no other damag e from him
yeahh...this is why i prefer 3rd edition/pathifnder. Vecna just has /gains the silent smell and still spell metamagic, and boom.
Or just play an Artificer and nuke him from orbit.
Larloch is a better Lich, and there are several baddies at the same cr and higher that are more interesting, Demogorgon for one, Zariel for two, and the Tarrasque for three.
Vecna: "It's over Rogue! I have 25 passive perception!"
Rogue: "You underestimate my power!"
Vecna: "Don't try it!"
meanwhile my casual 40+ stealth rolls XD with pass without a trace and a -5 to perception due to Elven cloak
Yea the Rogue in my current party can't roll below a 30 for stealth and that's without pass without a trace. Vecna ain't seeing shit 😂
@@gabriel101x im also a gloomstalker sin champ multiclass so if I get a surprise off its HURTS 8 arrows at your face all SS all crits XD
@@sirken2 Gloomstalker sin champ? I’m guessing this means Gloomstalker/Champion Fighter multiclass… but what’s the sin part stand for?
@@Paradox-es3bl Assassin
One thing to note:
This is Vecna pre-Ascension.
I think wotc is just releasing this just to look for the ways this vecna is killable and then release post ascension vecna with the obvious weaknesses removed plus more to counter all the entries made to kill pre ascension vecna.
@@ColgateMcajax post-Ascension vecna would likely require beyond level 20 ruling for leveling beyond just the boons that are given by wotc.
If he was below CR 35 to 40 I would be brutally disappointed.
Also it'd be fun if they also included a harder mode for post Ascension with him reunited with his eye and hand.
@@ColgateMcajax post ascension Vecna will not be getting released almost assuredly, as far as I’m aware 5e has had a policy of not releasing stat blocks for gods. D&D learned it’s lesson from AD&Ds Dieties and Demigods when people started killing all the gods within it and getting insane god-level artifacts. This kinda pissed off Gygax and now we have Tomb of Horrors as a result.
💘
@@NecrelKitsune Late, but there's actually a Vecna statblock out there post-ascension in the homebrew book Ulraunt's Guide to the Planes: Shadowfell. In it, his base is that he can multi-cast two spells per turn (at will up to 4th level spells). He has an innate vulnerability to damage from the Sword of Kas, but it explicitly says in the statblock that if he's reunited with the eye and hand? He loses his vulnerability and can now multicast *three* spells a turn and gains an additional Legendary Action, bumping him up from 5 to 6.
Wanna know what's truly insane? This is literally "You Fools! This isn't even my final form!" Vecna. Archlich Vecna was the state he was in before he achieved godhood and later an even greater divine rank. Vecna at his peak is infinitely stronger than what wizards gave us. Wizards themselves confirmed that this is Vecna before achieving a Divine Rank, and if you look closely his CR is the same as Demogorgon, Orcus, and Zariel. So before peaking, he rivaled the Prince of Demons in Power as well as a Fallen Solar now Archduchess of the Baator. How's that for scary?
Just
Pointing out orkus can literally make him as a servent…… I find it amusing a cr 26 encounter can have the ability to summon a cr 26 encounter as one it’s actions.
@@patrickmcathey7081 if you take it literally, yes. Lore wise, I don't believe Orcus has enough power to control Vecna anymore by this point. But yeah it is funny thought.
@@patrickmcathey7081 How can he do that? Is it in his stats? I could not find it while Googling
@@sharp_iodine2737 Orcus showed him how to become a lich and gave him some power I believe, and he wouldn't give that for free.
Also, they give the DMs the option to boost up the fight by giving him the Book of Vile Darkness. Strategic selection below:
Select the Major Beneficial Property for 'immunity to Blinded, Deadened, Petrified, and Stunned conditions', and now his Truesight is not inhibited by Heavily Obscured effects and he can 'see' for his counterspell.
Take 3 Minor Benefical Properties of DMG Resistance for Magical Piercing, Magical Bludgeoning, and Fire. This protects against ranged weapon users, fire is very common and spells tend to use DEX saves Vecna lacks, and it should help with the chance a Meteor Storm hits him in a blitz attack.
3 Minor Detrimental properties can be 'Blinded when separated from book by 10 ft', 'Deafened when separated from book by 10 ft', and 'destroy Holy Water within 10 ft'. The Major Benefit negates the first two, since you are still attuned even with distance. The third is just a benefit for undead.
For the Major Detrimental Properties, take the 'rotting flesh' and 'kill a creature of your alignment before attunement'. His flesh is already rotted, and killing an evil subordinate who failed him is nothing new.
Now he's buffed up significantly just from the random (or DM decided) properties, along with the other defined properties.
Yeah, his low HP and lack of legendary actions really makes cheese possible, but to be fair, at this point of his career he's just a really strong spell caster. Sounds like 3 archers with high initiatives just ends the fight too.
make that two, non-optimized archers. treantmonk talked bout how weak vecna is
I would argue that no party should reasonably be in a position where they could cheese him via range. On top of the fact that you’ll probably also be dealing with an army of undead plus several lieutenants at the same time.
@@spartaneternal8423 Well guess what. The level 20 Adventure has you fight him alone in an enclosed room and he can actually get 1 rounded by some unoptimal arcane archers with no magic items. GG
@@Cyfearal A level 20 one shot isn’t designed to reflect Vecna’s full capabilities as a villain? Call me surprised. I’m not saying this statblock can’t be cheesed. I’m saying that this cheese would have no impact on Vecna played to his full ability in an actual campaign.
@@spartaneternal8423 This statblock isn't anywhere near representative of his full ability in the first place.
Way of the open hand monk just straight up hard counters vecna. At just third level you can remove his reactions with no save against it.
Yep! By far his greatest weakness is anything that removes reactions, particularly without spells.
I mean to be fair, I feel like Monk in general is the Anti-Mage class. Vecna, as powerful as he is, is the Mage Super Boss
A shocking grasp would also work
@@Zulk_RS nah, abjuration mage or glibbed bard with counter spell is the strongest anti mage. A bard with glibness on can guarantee counter spell a 9th level spell with no roll necessary , using a 3rd level spell slot
Hit him with shocking grasp an he can't do anything
Maybe, as a bonus action, Vecna can pull out the Book of Vile Darkness he has in his person, gaining additional spells like AOEs, as well as turn his actions (outside of spellcasting) into legendary actions.
But other than that, as a DM planning on having Vecna in a campaign, adding shield and subtle spell is an awesome idea to prevent cheese.
You sir, just got a sub!
I've said this in Treantmonk's video on Vecna: Vecna being a "Time Wizard" should automatically win initiative. He can also cast Fly at will so he should be flying before the start of the battle.
In addition to having Shield available, I would also change Invisibility to Greater Invisibility. I think those were mistakes made by WotC.
Afterthought is for stabbing the spell casters. +13 to hit. 20 Con save. Until the individual succeeds on the save, they can not regain hit points.
Wait, where do you get the Time Wizard Vecna thing from?
'cus if so I might have found a nice tie-in for my Chronurgy Wizard player in a world where time travel is quite literally supossed to be even out of the reach of Gods xD
Remember this is nerfed Vecna for your standard dnd party. This is Vecna on his day off. Optimized Vecna would be nigh unbeatable. Although I agree with all your points.
@@ivodijkman137 Its in the lore of the Vecna Dossier, this Vecna statblock isn't even Vecna at his full power (He takes this form to torment his enemies, if he actually got serious you wouldn't be fighting this statblock)
Since when is Vecna a time wizard, he's famous for his necromancy and being a major contributor to the vile book of darkness
@@a0point0of0view1 Its in the lore of the Vecna Dossier, he is regarded as a powerful time wizard (In fact, the stat block they give him is pre-ascension. And its specifically called out that this is pre-ascension vecna, and it can exist because of Vecna's mastery over time magic.
After the beholder episode and this... God, these are so good! The "strength/weaknesses, into beat the bad guy, into cheese him, into secretly a guide for sadistic DMs" HAS to become a series!
A high level rogue with a Druid in their party can definitely sneak up on him, with the rogues +17 to stealth, and then a pass without trace spell for a +10 to stealth, the rogue will easily be able to sneak up on Vecna.
You can’t just roll high on stealth and successfully sneak you can’t be in view when you sneak
@@Weegiest_beegi yes, but as long as you can reasonably sneak up on him, the rogue can and will.
@@chaosjimthevoidlord3762 Yeah unless Vecna hangs out in a empty room all day odds are you can sneak up on him like you sneak up on anyone else.
@@Ahglock
Just casually walk up behind him with a +27 to stealth.
He’ll never see it coming.
Your high-level rogue has reliable talent, so its stealth floor is already 27 without PWT. A ranger can also do your combo solo (Canny for stealth expertise, already has PWT).
I rule true sight to be quite unstoppable. For my setting it can only be stopped by anti divination, anti magic, or lead. I think that's reasonable for being called TRUEsight
agree and disagree. For me the creature still has to be able to see, so blindness effects can shut down.
at the same time i do think it should bypass things that obscure vision, but not through objects. otherwise a party casting true sight now has xray vision though all objects that are not lead.
but I can see why you want to buff it, creatures that rely on it are cheesable if you know the weaknesses. damned if you do, damned if you don;t
Same, if the players complain I just say they have Blindsight as well as Truesight.
How does that make sense? By that same logic people with true sight should be able to see thru walls
When I use true sight it's not by a basic person casting a spell or through an item. I think of extra planar beings who have gone past eyes and stuff.
But I can agree that the more mild versions of true sight can't see through solid walls. And I'll agree that blinding a person might stop their true sight depending on how they are blinded
@@aaronwilliams8887 thats the point of knowing the WEAKNESS.
Ah yes another thing for the bard to boink
Vecna and the various parts of Vecna have been around for LONG LONG time - since 1976 in Eldritch Wizardry. I remember player characters talking about getting the hand or the eye of Vecna and me just thinking, "hmmm - our future does not bode well". These over powered but cursed items would eventually destroy the party from within and lead to an unstoppable TPK when we actually encountered Vecna. I'm talking utter and humiliating devastation without a glimpse of hope. My thieves would open a chest to reveal a moldy hand or petrified eye and simply turn to the party and answer, "Empty, nothing to see here". DMs would catch on to my tricks and started having the ring of Vecna or the amulet of Vecna. If pressed about it, I'd reveal a pouch of gold that nobody knew about just so that their natural inclinations about my natural inclinations to steal party treasure seemed to pay off. Of course I stole party treasure, I'm a thief, but I'm not a stupid thief... I'm not doing anything with Vecna. Being a sneaky thief generally made me sole survivor in most TPKs. Then it became my job to drag their dead bodies back to town and cough up my "hard earned" gold to raise the lot from the dead.
Enjoy your Vecna encounters - TPKs for everybody.
Head of Vecna was too OP.
That Vecna is the statblock before his ascension to Godhood, that's why it's beatable. Well, technically in 3.5 there was a statblock for Vecna and many other gods, but they where absolutely insane, much much more than this Vecna and you needed to be a god yourself to kill one.
People often talk about fabled 3.5 e stat blocks of gods and I am sitting here trying to Find ONE for years.
Those stat blocks were just for the Avatars of gods not the gods themselves.
@@MeshifuariThe Trove used to be a great website where you could find PDFs of old D&D books. It's been taken down now but you can still find a lot of its stuff on the way back machine.
Deities and demigods 3.5e great book
Also Faiths and panteons
@@gabriel101x Man, wich site you know instead of the trove?
Treantmonk Temple dropped Vecna in one round with a pair of level 20 human Arcane Archers with no magical items. The only provision is that everyone rolls a 10 on their initiative checks. The AA's beat Vecna's initiative, and stay at range. Vecna's reactions are useless as no spells, no one in melee range. Vecna's effed.
“Twenty minutes later I was 12 inches deep into orc female” I’m dead 🤣
It's worth noting in regards to Vecna Vs Orcus that Orcus, as written, has the ability to summon a Vecna to fight for him, in addition to a second basic lich and demilich all at once
This is amazing! Im actually planning on him being the BBEG of my homebrew, but when i looked at him I decided he was a bit weak. So im having it to where he has access to thr book of vile darkness. Im also allowing him to use his eye and hand, bc its vecna? Why not?
As the DM, may I suggest manually selecting the random properties for the book? The Minor Beneficial would be good to add some dmg resistances. Some of the Detrimentals can actually be boons for undead (like destroy Holy Water in 10 ft).
@@Watcher40K9 Oh most definitely, and I feel that the detrimental might balance out the chaos
You are the DM dude, you can buff him as much as you want
Bro, you offering your work for free to those that can’t afford your patreon convinced me to sub. Good on ya.
Truesight can see into the ethereal plane. Depending on what that is taken to mean, a good chunk of these strategies aren't viable.
That's something I thought as well. Unless you can obscure vision in the Ethereal Plane, he should be able to use his teleport within the range of his Truesight. Though, the DM could rule that sight blocking effects also block sight in the Ethereal (think that's kind of bad since it would mean spells can affect the plane) or that seeing into the Ethereal doesn't provide equivalent sight into the Material. Then he'd be SOL.
um you cant hurt him now that he is in the cage "A prison in the shape of a box can be up to 10 feet on a side, creating a solid barrier that prevents any matter from passing through it and blocking any Spells cast into or out of the area." so yay Vecna is trapped but cant be hurt
if you read the spell further you'll see that you can form it with bars that things can pass through!
@@DnDShorts ah fair enough
Heavy makes actually sense, it's just badly named. It should be called unwieldy. Just imagine a three to five year old wielding a polearm or trying to draw a long bow to full length.
Just rename short and long bow into hunting and war bow, as there are powerfull composite bows and weak longbows.
It makes sense according to physics but in a game of magic and fantasy why can’t a halfling swing a great axe
oh man that cheese stratagem is awsome!!! the DM will not allow to wish stop vecna from revenge..... if you are a low lived race your character will suffer, (or maybe thier cult will resurrected faster just for fun)
Isn't Vecna the god of magic? How does he not have access to all spells like a LVL 50 wizard or something? Even his avatars should at least have spell slots like a LVL 30 wizard and have all spells prepared at all times.
Might I suggest the other half of a wombo combo with Force Cage... At 6 levels of exhaustion, the creature dies.
Sickening Radiance
XGE
p164
4th-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
Dim, greenish light spreads within a 30-foot-radius sphere centered on a point you choose within range. The light spreads around corners, and it lasts until the spell ends.
When a creature moves into the spell's area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, and it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius. This light makes it impossible for the creature to benefit from being invisible. The light and any levels of exhaustion caused by this spell go away when the spell ends.
Now this is something I can get behind
Condition Immunities : exhaustion
@@Hazslin woo well played Vecna... Well played. Works on just about anything else though XD
Wait so, is this VECNA Vecna, or his Divine Avatar?
If its the former, yay for immortal Gods, but he is soooooo weak for a literal GOD.
If its the latter, how the hell did Vecna bypass the whole "Kill an avatar destroy an avatar" thing? Or is that what the 1d10 years of cooldown time?
Even if its an Avatar, it still seems so bloody weak to me.
All in all, this only confirms my headcannon and my game cannon that the Gods aren't as powerful as they would like mortals to think-
Anyone know how to dm this guy for the fight between Orcys and Vecna? His link sends me to his Discord Server, but I can't seem to find even so much as a q&a for contacting him specifically, did I overlook something?
I don't think the dagger is useless, each strike forces a high con saving throw and apon a fail the target Cannot heal until a successful re-save but this effect happens every successful hit with the dagger, rendering healing useless
For the love of God stop moving everthing in your videos you move so much I can’t watch your stuff without getting motion sick and wanting to throw up everywhere I get some people don’t have an attention Spand this is ridiculous
I would like to point out/remind; this is the stat block for "Vecna the Archlich", this form is not a god and shouldn't be used as such.
Amazes me that a literal god wizard barely accounted for having the same weaknesses as basically every spellcaster
Doesn't he have true sight making blocking his vision incredibly harder?
How to fix Vecna: 1) Dont forget he *has* the Book of Vile Darkness encased in his chest. 2) Give him a spell list with spell slots.
lore isn't a statblock, statblock don't mention the book. he has w.e items the dm pleases.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 Their is a side note that says "If you wanted to add more challenge, consider giving him the book of Vile Darkness" which to me is reasonable, the thing that made this Vecna Statblock unusual was the fact that they didn't give him his lair actions (You'd most likely be facing Vecna in his Lair, which gives him lair actions)
@@HallowedKeeper_ they dont give lair actions in the stat block but in the adventure they give lair action if the dm wants to add them in for more of a challenge
@@kurtacus3581 It should be on the same page as his statblock, not in a single specific adventure. (Literally every other creature with Lair actions has it on their page)
@@HallowedKeeper_ it should. But i was just informing you that there is lair actions. You just have to look at the adventure that is included with the vecna statblock