I have not listened to the full podcast I am about 2 minutes in (where they talk about how it's hard to get 5 people on the same page), but so far I like the direction the conversation is going and I would like to take this opportunity to thank LS, his friends and/or guests that engage in meaningful in-depth discussions about the state of the game, the esports scene and just LoL in general. Regardless of whether I, a random 10 year veteran gold/plat player agree or disagree with what they have to say, these are the types of conversations that need to be had in order to develop and grow the quality of gameplay both in regular league and in competitive play. Again, thank you, and keep doing what you are doing. Can't wait for the MMO and all the content that will surround it. EDIT: Finished the podcast, using my deductive reasoning I will now take things out of context while summarizing sensationalized points to farm reddit karma and create unnecessary drama: Alphari is an idiot, EU players are racist, LS shares cock pictures on discord and is condescending on purpose toward other people.
The thing about Arslan is actually not accurate, Pakistan unironically were just insanely good at tekken, but none of those players had online presence or could travel. It just happened to be an insanely passionate community that was completely isolated to the outside. Arslan didn't travel to practice in other countries to get good, Arslan traveled to show how insanely good Pakistan is, he went to other countries to have high placings and display how strong their scene is. These days, KR and EU players like to go to pakistan and practice vs pakistani players instead of the other way around.
Yeah Arslan Ash's story is like when you're the best among your friend group by far and you haven't played anyone outside your friend group, but your friend group just happens to be the 2nd best region in the world apparently, arguably the best
I was a coach in Latin America for 2 years and the problem to listening to LS is that his message is hidden in between his words and you have to push through some of the concepts he introduces but fails to expand on them. I ran into the same conclusions as he did, and eventually bumped into the problem at the heart of western league of legends, a cultural issue. My players, as shit as they were, were just undisciplined and I spent months scouting for interview and selecting correct personalities and passions. We will never defeat the east by trying to mimic everything they do, we won't play 18 hours a day of league because we know it's bad for you, even GBay99 made an excellent video highlighting this. We need to play to our strengths, build a structure that teaches fundamentals of the game, selects players on both aptitudes and personalities, ensure they are willing to play true counters and ensure they understand what it means to learn and grow as a player, even if it means they will be a star ADC playing Sona or they will play mid a gane because it's what the team needs. This problem runs even deeper because no one can agree what concepts exist on the game and we can't define them and we can't teach them. People called me an idiot for trying to do this, but I got my team to win scrims against higher level teams using double enchanter botlane before Sona Taric, played seraphine top/mid, flexed Graves and Kindred to solo lanes and smashed, and no team does this because they don't select the players correctly and tech them the importance of discipline in the game The west can definitely win and destroy the east, but we need to restructure how we approach the game fundamentally and learn from traditional sports where the west is better than the east.
I would be ready to bet favorable genetics matter way more in physical sports compared to culture. There's a reason why France smashes Japan in Judo for 20 years straight now, despite Japan having invented absolutely everything about the sport
@@matzck9674 Funnily enough, I am a biologist and naturally gravitated towards the same conclusion, however, the only noticeable difference between eastern and western players is a statistically significant faster reaction time. (80-100ms in USA vs 50-70 in China and Korea, I'm remembering this off a paper I read years ago, can't remember the exact source) There is literally nothing than a chinese or korean player does that is physically impossible for a mexican kid next to the US border playing in challengers queue to do. Differences in practice environments such as higher ping does foment bad habits in skill shot use and dodging, which is why modernising infrastructure is also important, but it is besides the point if upper eschelons of play already have the same playing field as the east.
@@MefoWho It's not that they don't work enough, it's that they need to comprehend playing league for a living is a privilege, the moment they see it as a job it's the moment their career starts tumbling down. I had the fortune of working with what I am 100% sure is the most mechanically skilled AD Carry in all of Colombia, in scrims he was as cracked as one of those montage Ezreal or Aphelios players. But trying to convince him to drop the ego and play fasting Senna, Xerath, Seraphine or Sona was the challenge, ultimately he was trying to be like the players he looks up to. However, I always tried to remind him that to win you don't need to be a better player than their counterparts, we need to be a whole better team from coach to players. The team wins and the team loses as a whole, and as corny and cringy as this sounds, this is sports psychology 101 and it runs deep in western culture in teams like FC Barcelona, Ajax, Bayern Munich and Manchester City
@@RofLuxRay that's why I specifically talk about physical sports, obviously for LoL, other factors matter (Korean's cutthroat culture for everything in life is one thing)
Need to chime in regarding Arslan and Tekken. He did not train in Korea or Japan. He trained in his country of Pakistan which has some of the best players in the world and is arguably the strongest country at the game so him taking down Koreans is not a miracle it's just that Pakistani can not travel easily which is why they were sort of hidden and no one knew how good they actually were.
I wish the guys here knew this because this brings up an arguably more fascinating point about this. It wasn't that they all grinded in Korea and got godlike by just knowing how Koreans play, it was a small but extremely dedicated community in a single country constantly pushing itself to be better. That it isn't just a matter of "superior East asian genetics" or "grinding 20+ hours until your eyes bleed" but having a community in which everyone is willing to pitch in to win. It's what people say about Japan in fighting games as well, that yes NA and EU have exceptional world class players but the reason that the field in Japan is so much better is that they are so much more willing to share knowledge and grow together.
LS is totally right about bringing up the social aspect that League lacks. There is nowhere in the game/client for like-minded individuals to come together and to discuss the game. This is something that was lost in games as a whole and it sucks ass. It one hundred percent makes the whole game worse ~ makes it more toxic, makes it harder for people at all levels to improve, makes it hard to even make friends. Crownie should 100% try to be practice partners with the second/third best ADC's in EU. It's bad for someone in lower ranks who can't cross-pollinate with people in high ranks as a good way to learn, but he has the power to actually message people with him at the top and has no excuse not to try.
Totally agree. Analogy: Often Free Open Source Software (FOSS) is better than proprietary Software, because the hive mind of humanity is better than 5 to 50 programmers of a company in a closed environment. However, management, politics and processes make the usage of FOSS really hard, because among other things it endangers the business model. Same is probably here in place (to strengthen their regional strength) and I wouldnt wonder, if the players are required to sign non disclosure agreements to not give any information to others. However, if you want to compete internationally you better start sharing information.
Not to discredit nemesis, but the fallout was pretty much one sided in the end of the outcome. Nemesis is mad and LS repeatedly says that he is right. LS regrets it a lot. But, Nemesis still top Korean Challenger and Rank 1 EUW after a very short time. He is a beast and people that want to discredit his success are just salty. He would be, in the current LEC state, between 1 to 3 best Mid LEC individual in an instead.
I watched this live, was exceptionally interesting and entertaining to watch. LS's streams, especially when he has guests like this, are the best thing in league at the moment. It's like that spark of light in the dark of EU and NA LOL pro scene that is doomed to always be a runner-up. I wish I could be a part of that conversation, had a lot to add using my background in esports scene tbh
I agree, I also really like when Bwipo and other proplayers talk about the game, they sometimes talk about the "bigger" questions about League, but usually they talk about specific teams/players and how they managed to do certain things
seriously, this is probably the best content you made this year love it so much I listened to it live yesterday, and it is so interesting and entertaining that I forgot to take my bath
I understand 100% where LS is coming from when it comes to autism cause I was in the exact same boat. There are things about social interaction that some people with autism are just not capable of picking up on. You might say or question things in a way that’s off putting to others without even realizing that you’re doing it and it’s not until someone points it out that it even crosses your mind.
League in Korea is like Football in South America ,those guys are just born into an environment that is ideal for those spefic sports/esports and another aspect i think is really important is support from families ,i would assume if a 13 year old in Korea would tell his mom that he wanted to become pro she will support him ,in other countries you kinda have to support yourself which is definitely harder overall ,since most western families dont see esports like an actual job .
Korean moms would definitely not support you to become a pro gamer. Parenting in Korea is much stricter than in Europe where you have much more freedom in your teenage years. Koreans just learn the fundamentals right and practice their execution to perfection while in the west, they tend to be very sloppy with the basics
I think the discussion / conversation is wholesome on its own and it makes me think that it can be applied somewhere else too in our life. (Motivation, rivalry, passion, critical thinking, etc) So, the discussion being circle around the question of “How do western teams beat eastern teams / Why is the eastern teams are stronger than the western teams” Some of the point of eastern is stronger: Work culture (extra-long hours of practice, unhealthy in 1 way but some could say is passion so why not); Internal drive / competitiveness of the players (Talking to each other / exchange information even though they are rival) Some of the points of western being weaker: Lack of motivation (view as job securement); Work culture (No willing to listen, coach not respected); Political issue inside organization; Social media. From here I think I can see that we use our weakness compared to the other’s strength. Someone could say those weaknesses in western team can be applied too in eastern team. I think this is because of 1 thing and 1 thing only, result. Eastern team wins. We perceive that the things we winner does is “correct ways to be the best”. So, we copy because there is evidence that if we do this enough (following the formula), we can win too. This goes back to the LS’s tweet about if we play “standard” against them we are losing anyways. So, we must play it smart / right (Mechanicals differences due to longer practice / larger pools of talent / etc). I think this is where LS was too far ahead in our times because he’s already seen the end games. (When all the players know the game so well that the game is basically over by the time draft is done) What lies beyond is the unknown, we can only know after we reach that far. I think why most the western is disheartening to play it “smart” it is because they believe the “smart” ways is not going to work / eastern team will be beat us anyways / “cheese” draft / not “standard” play. But the important 1 is, if I play it “right” and lose because not 1 win with the “right” ways, why do I put the time and effort in doing those things. Won’t I become more miserable? And thus, no one will risk it. (Comfort zone is the bitch) So then, what can we do? I think atleast 10 people / 2 teams start with putting effort in this. The teams are all in the same pages of the “right” ways are the best ways and fuck it, we are going through the bottom of this. We can only start with our own, but we can’t make it with our own. Hopefully, this conversation can be spread well, love to see 1 day we will get more excited in the international games? Remember when IG was kicked out by TL in MSI? When nobody knows who is going to win, that’s when the HYPE comes in.
Thanks for reading. Be positive and hope you guys are well.
This is the sort of thing I do with all of my hobbies. You can apply so much random stuff to all different parts of life and even other hobbies. Sun Tzu's art of war applies to business, league, competitive-anything, and you can get these principles by just learning the same fundamentals in any one of them! Learning not to get angry at things you can't control similarly fits in life, in all types of solo-queue across all games, and to luck as well And this is just the tip of the iceberg, just about every single piece of wisdom can be used elsewhere
Fun to listen to and funny to hear how lots of things discussed are completely the opposite to dota scene. Would love to see the starcraft pro discussion too
The comment where Zven, Fudge, and Blaber don't care as much is nice to hear. I watched them win LCS and Berzerker and EMENES looked visibly moved. Every other player just looked like they kind of shrugged and said "Eh, just another day at the office." while fireworks were going on behind them. Zven doesn't look like he's done anything to improve in the last 2 years.
EMENES thing is akin to Crownie tearing up after the semifinal win, he was almost cast aside, labelled as toxic and impossible to work with, never to be picked up again. An then, less than a year later he picks up a trophy - insane validation for him after a tough tough time, a truly special moment he couldn't have dreamt of, especially happening so fast
A pipedream would be LS making a team with all of the players who came to him and dominate whichever region they choose to be in. Showing the other teams a different (better) way.
The fact that we had that happening with C9, and then it all came crashing down in a completely unexpected way because NA wants their handshake and paycheck
@@abdallahhakeem5185 yeah, that's why I was thinking a brand new team not an entrenched establishment. I was thinking any region due to the impacts being worldwide regardless. Similar to LS I discovered I was autistic fairly recently, it does affect things, to expand on LS' analogy of it being similar to colour blindness, it's social colour blindness. This is why having a team who know LS is much more beneficial than a corporate establishment with strict procedures, etc. And would enable the players, staff and LS to reach greater heights
@@abdallahhakeem5185 Nah there's no way all of them agreed. I firmly believe some players complained about his metholodology which led to him getting kicked. I also think his idea of the avengers team is a by product of everything at C9 not having the same mentality and personality at playing the game. I am absolutely convinced this was the case
The topic at 18:20 u can also see it on cyclism and high performance competitions, where south american athletes who live in high altitude create and have a lot more red blood cells on their bodies, because of low oxygen concentrations on thouse locations. Because of that athletes of diferent regions and contries, 3/4 weeks prior to the competition go train on thouse environments to develop similar fisical structures and adaptations.
49:59 in sc2 when GSL announced a huge format change a few months ago (effectively killing the korean SC2 scene) many of the korean pros were messaging eachother in support and drinking together talking about a huge end of an era... Could you ever imagine this happening in EU?
Also to Crownie's point, Arslan did not train in Korea, dude couldn't even enter the country prior to the tournament where he removed every single Korean player from the tournament.
Two things that I want to say are 1. As estern European who moved to study abroad to Germany i can say that LS as an American is overlooking the cultural diferences. In a team in LEC now days its rare to have three players from the same country. And people from the northern parts of Europe are more "cold" and are sloe to build connections. What I mean by that is that when they meet new people at first they keep their distance and then they can become friends. On the other side people from southern countries are a lot more friendly a lot more out going. And you can see that also from the cultural stereotypes. In Spain people think its only siestas and hot weather. In Italy its all about dolce vita and Germany is about hard work. Also balkan or slavic people have completely different way of talking because they have completely different alphabets and ways of structuring sentences and so on. Offen when people hear me speaking my language on the phone or with my mother they think we are fighting constantly. The reason why 2019 G2 worked is because all the players wanted to play with caps. This is why there were poaching accusations against G2. The second point I want to make is that LS comparing the star craft community and the lol community is wrong because the gamer culture is wrong. Before the community( I asumme based on the things I've heard) was way smaller and people wanted to have connections with other people who have the same passion. This is why when you find such a person you want to be on good terms with them. Nowadays people start playing league because a friend told them to play. Which is way different. You are not forced to find a person on the other side of the world you, can find it in your country and you can be a more lot yourself and act as your culture has told you. To be a team nowadays in LEC ( I think as a spectator and a person who studies in another country and is forced to make friends with people from different places) is very important to have time with each other to see if they can understand each other. That may sound stupid for people but when you don't understand someone you start to have resentment. But it's hard for some teams that start scrimping late, and have to always catch up. This is why teams have to start scriming and doing team building long before the season starts. That's what I think I am sorry to the person who will read that and I hope my point is clear enough. I hope I brought a different perspective.
An easy example of a team that succeeded despite their environment is CSGO's Luminosity, with the classic Coldzera, Fer, FNX, Fallen and Taco lineup. If you don't know, they were a brazilian squad that came to NA to practice, the dominant region being Europe and had to push through a lot of adversity like three people having to sleep in the same bed. In spite of practicing in an objectively inferior region and having to push through economic hardship, they managed to win two csgo world championships back to back. How did they do it? Other than the clear drive of the players, Fallen (if I'm remembering correctly) explained in an interview that they would scrim NA teams (who btw wouldn't even make a deep run in said world championships) and they would practice with the intent of always doing the correct play. So they would let NA teams get away with their usual freeflow and ego shenanigans, and if it worked against them, they would just shrug it off and say "a european team would never make such a play", since in a tournament setting it was too risky and easy to punish. Basically they ignored what would have worked in the moment and against their immediate oposition, and invested in playing the long game which then paid off in the big tournaments.
I think if this LEC and LCS team wants to win, they need like really work hard on their team gameplay. Tbh , I think the reason why T1 has a great players and great gameplay is that they improve on every corner of the game , like the timings, ganks , the champion movements, the warding in specific time. Those little things adds up until it is a huge advantage if done correctly. Also I think T1 did a lot of data gathering on everything about league, so they can know how to do a certain thing on a certain moment , and also the genius one is that , they get younger players so they can implant the knowledge of the game to them because it is harder to train a pro player with a history or like achievements because sometimes ego is on the way until younger players they just accept what you want them to do.
LCS/LEC players have stated they want an ideal work day where they put less hours in. Can't expect improvement when LCK/LPL teams are investing approx 2-3x the amount of time and effort.
Yeah if that continue to happen I think no doubt LCK and LPL will be always ahead on other different regions. But sometimes yeah overwork make players depressed or retired like Nuguri. But I guess it is a high risk, high reward. And also depends on different organizations on how they deal with that issues
In my opinion the best thing LS brings to league is not whether his ideas or way to play the game is right or wrong. Its that he makes people think. Or more so that he challenges people to think. He offers a different view of the game that many people overlook. So even if you disagree with him you should be able to have something to take away from what he says.
Can someone please explain to me why FUDGE is on the list at 38:30 ? What has he ever done that makes you think he was one of the best top laners in the WORLD?
As an autistic person I feel LS's pain at that end. I've known about my autism since I was ~6yo and it is still a struggle to deal with when talking to others. I have so much trouble talking to anyone. My wife is only able to understand me because she is it to and we understand each other. I've lost friends from saying what LS said about autism because of people thinking it is me being shitty or stupid or making excuses when I'm calling for help to understand.
@@jimb0072 There's this word called empathy, do you know about it? If you don't know how to be constructive, say nothing at all, it's not hard trust me dude. We people in the spectrum aren't trying to be insecure/introvert, that comes naturally because We struggle to go with the flow. We very easily decide who We are and what we like and is very hard to fit if the people around us doesn't like similar stuff or behave on a similar way. Our social skills aren't good and We know it, that's why there're a lot of campaigns so other people help us, if You know someone in the spectrum and want to help, You're the one who need to talk to that person, help them fit in your group if that person wants to but doesn't know how to. It's not an issue of confidence, it's just how our brains work. A lot of us are very confident in our skills actually, just like LS is very confident in his understanding of the game. So, just be nice or keep doing your own, don't go out of your way to make people feel worst with a careless sentence.
as someone who followed you since season 3, and as someone who has been working on his own autism spectrum disorder, it's baffeling to me how you didn't relaize your tendancies earlier
I think the best counter to the majority of this convo is to look at a scene like overwatch, very team oriented while also having a skill diff in many aspects. Yet western and eastern players have good friendships and communicate well and succeed. I honestly think LOL is just toxic.
45:00 idk whos talking here but said a great point "why is it in Korea you want to play better and catchup, when you are not even the best in your role in NA" seriously such a strong point especially in NA. NA goals are so high and unachievable because they dont have a foundation laid for a target goal.
I am not finished yet but when it came to making interpersonal relationships, LS forgets that Europe has a massive history and ppl from countries have animosity towards ppl from other countries. You've just seen it 2 days ago with Spanish ppl flaming Nisqy and wanting him to be kicked out of madlions while french ppl defended him. It's different.
55:20 Great talk so far and I like the interjections and clarifications to progress the conversation, but this point essentially saying "pros need to socialize" is too funny (and unironically true). I see pros intermingling the same as asking one tricks for advice on a specific champion to understand it better. Pros that open more avenues to new ideas can gain a stronger sense of curiosity from talking to other pros with new ideas (motivation) and help their unique gameplay (skill). If this is better to do, then everyone does it and you have a stronger region when the sum of its parts are greater than the individuals.
Talk to Serral! In 2018 he beat all Koreans in all SC2 matches. He made a statement that you can only practice a certain amount of time effectively. I don't remember the exact time, but I'm sure it was a lot shorten than what the Koreans do... If he felt like he lost his focus and could not practice meaningfully anymore he would take a break and walk in the forest with his dog. I bet it's hard to beat or even match the Asians in diligence, but you could beat them with relevance.
1:04:10 those conversations 100% do not need to be stressful. There are simple answers to the questions that all players have, the issue is not being able to arrive at the same conclusion due to knowledge gap between the players.
Wow is an interesting counter example where the west is so much better than the east. For example when Reckful’s rmp was by far the best in the world, Reckful simply stated that he was far more selfish as a player than other teams. The west has always had a culture of individualism vs the east being as Ls says as a hivemind.
Nemisis not joining C9 with LS makes more sense now. I bet he didn't think the personalities were compatable or the level of the team was not high enough. Blows
This is one of the best conversations i listened to I just had human resources class My question to the teacher was Who are peaople forbidden from taking like humans to each other and giving structure to what can be said
the lenguage barrier was so hard to show the points they want to put across. They should take the subject with preparation so they can talk more in deep on the matter because it's really interesting to listen from people who are inside the league.
Saying Ruler and Guma are friends was a really bad example, Guma clearly sees all other adcs as competition bec hes insecure. He literally said when he and Berserker were in t1 academy that he's being careful with not sharing any tips with him bec that guy might take his job. But Ruler and Deft are friends, they've been the best adcs for years, they respect each other and they want to maintain that status so sharing knowledge is beneficial for them. But yes other lck players exchange info with each other, for example Keria dm'd Canyon for a Neeko jungle build after her rework came out .When a new jungle champ is viable ofc the best jungler will be looking for the best build for it. That is expected, and others come to him asking for this info, its a sign of respect. Who in the lcs or lec is that "best jungler " or "best adc" who immediatelly when something new is available will be doing the work of trying diff builds? there isnt anyone, everyone is more or less equal and only interested in their own thing (for example Yike with his carry junglers). Im am convinced that western players see "being the best " as a feeling they are pursuing while lck players see it as a certain amount of work that they put in which also grants results.
who is samsungcoach in the call? he was really enjoyable to listen to. he criticized and questioned the players in the call without being confrontational and brought up some really solid points
In psychology, interestingly motivation and creative thinking isn't an inherent trait, but a developed and trained ability. Proplayers stand to gain a lot from counseling or therapy, from redirecting and strengthening motivation, to learning creative thinking and critical thinking skills. Proplayers can also learn social skills they need to work within teams and voice criticism effectively. Of course the big caveat here is that the proplayers would need to desire that change for any of this to work in the first place. On that note, the willingness to accept challenges of ones beliefs in the form of disagreement, criticism, mistakes or self-reflection, also known as cognitive flexibility, is the only statistically supported trait(out of 5) that affects a LoL player's ability to climb, based on an actual scientific study. You can read more in "Cognitive Flexibility and Decision Making Predicts Expertise in the MOBA Esport, League of Legends". More reasons to go to therapy I guess.
well, g2 do have the desire to win but it is not enough. you also need to break out from the western playstyle and lead a charge to the front and sprint it. and that is a very hard task for a team to do. because that means you will be the pioneer that helped the whole region step up. g2, followed by BDS are the 2 EU teams that can lead this kind of charge
It's really dumb to say that a lot of western players genuinelly want to win when all they do is copy what LCK does, be it good or bad (2 control wards), and do 0 thinking of their own.
Or they will never win because they have all admit to putting less time in the game to practice. That would mean blaming your favorite LEC/LCS players. Cough Fudge.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg do you think we have endless talent to throw at the 18hr a day wall and hope it sticks? LPL and LCK players practice more bc there's enough talented players for the teams to pick and choose only the ones with good work ethic. "lazy" players make it to the LCS/LEC because there's no-one with work ethic talented enough to replace them. blaming the players for a statistics problem makes no sense. instead we should be focusing on how to develop player work ethic and self discipline. the changes need to come from a coaching and management level, not the player level.
Damn I really wish LS would speak with Serral or Raynor and ask them their opinion and perspective on why and how they’ve been able to overcome the best Korean players at SC2
People are overthinking this whole west vs east skill gap thing way too much. NA will never catch up to Korea/China because the players are lazy and have no interest in putting in the work required to reach that level. If NA actually wants to improve as a region, they'd fire 90% of the washed up overpaid pros currently playing and replace them with hungry new talent. Instead they just bring back Doublelift for the 19th time.
I'm not kidding, I know BDS looked completely shit when they got exposed at their last 3 losses but I still think they would be the west's best hope at MSI. Because I genuinely think that one of the Asian teams would disrespect Adam, let him get Darius/Olaf and get clapped. Obviously if they do their due diligence it wouldn't matter but they'd still do better than MAD/C9 so far.
Copium. MAD already smashed Adam Darius by splitting across the map and making ghost Darius useless. Adam is also a really bad top laner. BDS would have lost to the wildcard teams.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg why are you still here just to hate btw? I’ve seen you like 15 times in LS videos’ comments. Your conclusions are always never logical because you are a very emotional hateful person. There are stylistic differences in teams and BDS’ style is more stable and has less variance than MAD. BDS are better than MAD when it comes to vsing the east. You lack critical thinking so please refrain from making further statements on LS videos lmao.
Caps should DM Nemesis for 1v1 because his Laning and matchup knowledge seems to be terrible atm. I was wondering what would be stopping him from doing this until I heard how stupid the egos in LEC can be.
this list was created by everyone in the call my guy and the people "that actually know what they are talking about" come to LS for advices and agree with him on almost everything that he is saying.
@@koreannidalee15 "it was and it wasn't" is a shit statement cause you just made your entire point irrelevant lmao + it might be hard to believe for you, but LS wasn't even the one talking the most on the podcast so your words have 0 value
@@tupoibaran3706 That's not a flex considering the worst pro players are from the west. The fact they get paid a ton with more support than wildcard region is sad enough.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg Idk how exactly your argument correlates to mine. Also LCK players have asked LS for advices, too, if that’s what you are concerned about .
Best EU team: Top - Wunder JG - Jankos Mid - Caps ADC - Hans Sama Supp - Hylissang (this is not best players, but the best TEAM, 1st option carry caps and then Hans, rest is enabling these 2 players, ofc caps can't play stuff like naut mid, he needs counter picks and play 1v9 champs. Also I know Hyli ints mid/late game, but he's the best aggressive supp in lane in the west and I need try get Hans ahead) If you can also take NA players then maybe: Top - Fudge ADC - Berserker same other 3 To consistently complete in bo5 against top2 Korean/China you need a good system with 1 or 2 carry options. I think you need Caps because he is the only X factor in the west
Everything seems to hit the nail from how the West falls so short of Korea and China. You can't just stick the best players on one team. There are many factors that go deeper than that than just mechanics and game skill. Synergy and mindset like they talk about are super important. Which is why Western "Superteams" are essentially "Paper Champions" as on paper, they can win an International Trophy. Realistically however, you can have a clash of playstyle and personality that just causes the entire project to collapse and fold within itself.
the arslan ash tekken example was off but if you wanted to tie that into this competitive gaming discussion why not also take a look at the culture of that pakistan tekken scene? especially since korean/asian competitive gaming diehard culture is seen as S-tier and yet there is another contender.
16:20 since when do scrims matter LS Madge, plus u are training for a bo5 not a bo50 so while i agree damwon has better players and if they play on scrims where g2 is trying stuff and figuring out things those scrims won't matter because they will condense those 50 games to three winning games in b05.
2019 meta was better than s10 and s11, nowadays u cant create anyhitng before u could win with anything plus many players were more easy to beat with strats
@@whisky_cat Copium. Only reason G2 had success vs LCK was because LCK was adapting to the rune reforged meta. People forget in 2019 G2 was still god awful vs LPL teams. Now that LCK can play the skirmish meta LEC is back to the mean; worse than LCK/LPL by a lot and competing with NA for 3rd best major region.
5:36 this has to be cap Zven literally role swapped to support, clearly doesn't like it as much as ADC, and yet he stayed support so he can be on C9 and try to win. Blaber also cares so much about League that he watches the other regions FOR FUN. I'm pretty confident Fudge is trying hard as well given that he has made winning integral to his reputation as an ego player (I'm not sure if he's really like that or if it's an act but either way he has a motive beyond just winning is more fun than losing). LS has been in the room with them and I haven't, but it just seems like a really bad take from my perspective as a person who has been watching C9 since before any of these players were here.
Nah it's def fudge. Puts less time into vods/champs queue. Thirsting around. Gets carried by C9 and has a large fan base to defend his mediocrity of play. Once again comes out as the worst top in another international. Licorice/BB/Chasy all look better.
@11:42 Showmaker was tired of being a competitive face figure, like tired of reddit complaining about his gameplay... He was litterly right after spamming soloq to try out some new dark tech.. And when it comes to talent poll in korea: if you wanna have fun, then you can play 10 games a day.. If you wanna go pro, then be serious: minimum 30 games a day..
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Crownie - I will type this
LS - Immediately reads it out loud
neuro-divergent things.
@@davidnymann6938just say autist. im giving you an autist-pass.
I have not listened to the full podcast I am about 2 minutes in (where they talk about how it's hard to get 5 people on the same page), but so far I like the direction the conversation is going and I would like to take this opportunity to thank LS, his friends and/or guests that engage in meaningful in-depth discussions about the state of the game, the esports scene and just LoL in general. Regardless of whether I, a random 10 year veteran gold/plat player agree or disagree with what they have to say, these are the types of conversations that need to be had in order to develop and grow the quality of gameplay both in regular league and in competitive play. Again, thank you, and keep doing what you are doing. Can't wait for the MMO and all the content that will surround it.
EDIT: Finished the podcast, using my deductive reasoning I will now take things out of context while summarizing sensationalized points to farm reddit karma and create unnecessary drama:
Alphari is an idiot, EU players are racist, LS shares cock pictures on discord and is condescending on purpose toward other people.
Am EU player, can confirm.
dont know what u mean by eu players are racist, i played in gm chall games where the adcs names were: the whitest adc vs skincolormaters.
Least parasocial fan.
I spat out my drink when reading that last paragraph 😂
Based
The thing about Arslan is actually not accurate, Pakistan unironically were just insanely good at tekken, but none of those players had online presence or could travel. It just happened to be an insanely passionate community that was completely isolated to the outside. Arslan didn't travel to practice in other countries to get good, Arslan traveled to show how insanely good Pakistan is, he went to other countries to have high placings and display how strong their scene is. These days, KR and EU players like to go to pakistan and practice vs pakistani players instead of the other way around.
Yeah Arslan Ash's story is like when you're the best among your friend group by far and you haven't played anyone outside your friend group, but your friend group just happens to be the 2nd best region in the world apparently, arguably the best
@@mcmagegamingg7422 but even Arslan Ash himself said that there were much better players than him when he won EVO lmao
@@longlifetometal1995thats called humility bud. he was by far the best at evo
It really is the most LS take to try and claim Arslan got good grinding in Korea lmfao
I was a coach in Latin America for 2 years and the problem to listening to LS is that his message is hidden in between his words and you have to push through some of the concepts he introduces but fails to expand on them. I ran into the same conclusions as he did, and eventually bumped into the problem at the heart of western league of legends, a cultural issue. My players, as shit as they were, were just undisciplined and I spent months scouting for interview and selecting correct personalities and passions.
We will never defeat the east by trying to mimic everything they do, we won't play 18 hours a day of league because we know it's bad for you, even GBay99 made an excellent video highlighting this. We need to play to our strengths, build a structure that teaches fundamentals of the game, selects players on both aptitudes and personalities, ensure they are willing to play true counters and ensure they understand what it means to learn and grow as a player, even if it means they will be a star ADC playing Sona or they will play mid a gane because it's what the team needs.
This problem runs even deeper because no one can agree what concepts exist on the game and we can't define them and we can't teach them. People called me an idiot for trying to do this, but I got my team to win scrims against higher level teams using double enchanter botlane before Sona Taric, played seraphine top/mid, flexed Graves and Kindred to solo lanes and smashed, and no team does this because they don't select the players correctly and tech them the importance of discipline in the game
The west can definitely win and destroy the east, but we need to restructure how we approach the game fundamentally and learn from traditional sports where the west is better than the east.
it all came down do western doesnt give enough work, whether its in copying eastern or innovating themselves eh ?
I would be ready to bet favorable genetics matter way more in physical sports compared to culture. There's a reason why France smashes Japan in Judo for 20 years straight now, despite Japan having invented absolutely everything about the sport
@@matzck9674 Funnily enough, I am a biologist and naturally gravitated towards the same conclusion, however, the only noticeable difference between eastern and western players is a statistically significant faster reaction time. (80-100ms in USA vs 50-70 in China and Korea, I'm remembering this off a paper I read years ago, can't remember the exact source)
There is literally nothing than a chinese or korean player does that is physically impossible for a mexican kid next to the US border playing in challengers queue to do. Differences in practice environments such as higher ping does foment bad habits in skill shot use and dodging, which is why modernising infrastructure is also important, but it is besides the point if upper eschelons of play already have the same playing field as the east.
@@MefoWho It's not that they don't work enough, it's that they need to comprehend playing league for a living is a privilege, the moment they see it as a job it's the moment their career starts tumbling down. I had the fortune of working with what I am 100% sure is the most mechanically skilled AD Carry in all of Colombia, in scrims he was as cracked as one of those montage Ezreal or Aphelios players. But trying to convince him to drop the ego and play fasting Senna, Xerath, Seraphine or Sona was the challenge, ultimately he was trying to be like the players he looks up to.
However, I always tried to remind him that to win you don't need to be a better player than their counterparts, we need to be a whole better team from coach to players. The team wins and the team loses as a whole, and as corny and cringy as this sounds, this is sports psychology 101 and it runs deep in western culture in teams like FC Barcelona, Ajax, Bayern Munich and Manchester City
@@RofLuxRay that's why I specifically talk about physical sports, obviously for LoL, other factors matter (Korean's cutthroat culture for everything in life is one thing)
It's really nice to have Reven in this conversation. He made it a lot more structured and easy to follow, formulated conclusions, etc.
fr. i appreciate him. wish he was able to get thru to LS more and vice versa.
Yeah, structuring the discussion through specific and simple questions is so OP
LS, im 1000% sure if you contact Reynor or Serral they are very open to talk to you either on or of stream - both SC2 western GOATS
Reynor was on a few streams with Nemesis too
Clem could be in that conversation aswel. All 3 of them are super top teir.
@@pinorossi3488 Can you link? I'm very interested.
@@poggers9728 I watched it on twitch, i don't know if someone uploaded it on yt. It was nemesis coaching reynor on league.
That's how % works.
Need to chime in regarding Arslan and Tekken. He did not train in Korea or Japan. He trained in his country of Pakistan which has some of the best players in the world and is arguably the strongest country at the game so him taking down Koreans is not a miracle it's just that Pakistani can not travel easily which is why they were sort of hidden and no one knew how good they actually were.
I wish the guys here knew this because this brings up an arguably more fascinating point about this. It wasn't that they all grinded in Korea and got godlike by just knowing how Koreans play, it was a small but extremely dedicated community in a single country constantly pushing itself to be better. That it isn't just a matter of "superior East asian genetics" or "grinding 20+ hours until your eyes bleed" but having a community in which everyone is willing to pitch in to win. It's what people say about Japan in fighting games as well, that yes NA and EU have exceptional world class players but the reason that the field in Japan is so much better is that they are so much more willing to share knowledge and grow together.
Of course it was ls that pulled shit out of his ass and said Arslan trained in Korea lmao
LS is totally right about bringing up the social aspect that League lacks. There is nowhere in the game/client for like-minded individuals to come together and to discuss the game. This is something that was lost in games as a whole and it sucks ass. It one hundred percent makes the whole game worse ~ makes it more toxic, makes it harder for people at all levels to improve, makes it hard to even make friends. Crownie should 100% try to be practice partners with the second/third best ADC's in EU. It's bad for someone in lower ranks who can't cross-pollinate with people in high ranks as a good way to learn, but he has the power to actually message people with him at the top and has no excuse not to try.
Totally agree. Analogy: Often Free Open Source Software (FOSS) is better than proprietary Software, because the hive mind of humanity is better than 5 to 50 programmers of a company in a closed environment. However, management, politics and processes make the usage of FOSS really hard, because among other things it endangers the business model.
Same is probably here in place (to strengthen their regional strength) and I wouldnt wonder, if the players are required to sign non disclosure agreements to not give any information to others. However, if you want to compete internationally you better start sharing information.
The removal of clubs actually indirectly links to this lol
Was refreshing to hear this live, there were lots of genuinely good questions and points brought up.
Didn't get to watch the whole thing. Did they talk about Chris Hansen and whether he was going to confront Veigarv2 or nah?
Lovly to see how LS portrays Nemesis as a formidable Midlaner. Really like to that he admires the player even tough they had a personall fallout.
Not to discredit nemesis, but the fallout was pretty much one sided in the end of the outcome. Nemesis is mad and LS repeatedly says that he is right. LS regrets it a lot. But, Nemesis still top Korean Challenger and Rank 1 EUW after a very short time. He is a beast and people that want to discredit his success are just salty. He would be, in the current LEC state, between 1 to 3 best Mid LEC individual in an instead.
@@ThatLuckyKill Copium.
@@ThatLuckyKill He is good, no doubt. But he is nowhere eastern mids and has giga ego for no reason. Thats why he is jobless
I watched this live, was exceptionally interesting and entertaining to watch. LS's streams, especially when he has guests like this, are the best thing in league at the moment. It's like that spark of light in the dark of EU and NA LOL pro scene that is doomed to always be a runner-up. I wish I could be a part of that conversation, had a lot to add using my background in esports scene tbh
I agree, I also really like when Bwipo and other proplayers talk about the game, they sometimes talk about the "bigger" questions about League, but usually they talk about specific teams/players and how they managed to do certain things
I love VeigarV2 literraly out of nowhere : " So what do we think about the veigar nerfs "
seriously, this is probably the best content you made this year
love it so much
I listened to it live yesterday, and it is so interesting and entertaining that I forgot to take my bath
I understand 100% where LS is coming from when it comes to autism cause I was in the exact same boat. There are things about social interaction that some people with autism are just not capable of picking up on. You might say or question things in a way that’s off putting to others without even realizing that you’re doing it and it’s not until someone points it out that it even crosses your mind.
Saw this live, best discussion on league I've ever seen. Outlines what actually needs to be talked about rather than than same shit every year.
Imagine a world where LS calls fudge, nemesis, crownie and trymbi to assemble the Avengers.
League in Korea is like Football in South America ,those guys are just born into an environment that is ideal for those spefic sports/esports and another aspect i think is really important is support from families ,i would assume if a 13 year old in Korea would tell his mom that he wanted to become pro she will support him ,in other countries you kinda have to support yourself which is definitely harder overall ,since most western families dont see esports like an actual job .
Korean moms would definitely not support you to become a pro gamer. Parenting in Korea is much stricter than in Europe where you have much more freedom in your teenage years.
Koreans just learn the fundamentals right and practice their execution to perfection while in the west, they tend to be very sloppy with the basics
One of the best conversations I've heard about this topic in the last few years. Thank you guys!
Crownshot carrying this podcast very fun to listen
4:50 damn poor Alphari got a curveball out of nowhere
lol he def caught a stray tough haha
Deserved tbh
Lpl lck만 이기는것도 재미가 없죠 2018~2020이 g2덕에 진짜 재밌었는데. Lec lcs가 다시 살아나길 함께 바라봅니다
I think the discussion / conversation is wholesome on its own and it makes me think that it can be applied somewhere else too in our life. (Motivation, rivalry, passion, critical thinking, etc)
So, the discussion being circle around the question of “How do western teams beat eastern teams / Why is the eastern teams are stronger than the western teams”
Some of the point of eastern is stronger:
Work culture (extra-long hours of practice, unhealthy in 1 way but some could say is passion so why not);
Internal drive / competitiveness of the players (Talking to each other / exchange information even though they are rival)
Some of the points of western being weaker:
Lack of motivation (view as job securement);
Work culture (No willing to listen, coach not respected);
Political issue inside organization;
Social media.
From here I think I can see that we use our weakness compared to the other’s strength. Someone could say those weaknesses in western team can be applied too in eastern team. I think this is because of 1 thing and 1 thing only, result. Eastern team wins. We perceive that the things we winner does is “correct ways to be the best”. So, we copy because there is evidence that if we do this enough (following the formula), we can win too.
This goes back to the LS’s tweet about if we play “standard” against them we are losing anyways. So, we must play it smart / right (Mechanicals differences due to longer practice / larger pools of talent / etc). I think this is where LS was too far ahead in our times because he’s already seen the end games. (When all the players know the game so well that the game is basically over by the time draft is done) What lies beyond is the unknown, we can only know after we reach that far.
I think why most the western is disheartening to play it “smart” it is because they believe the “smart” ways is not going to work / eastern team will be beat us anyways / “cheese” draft / not “standard” play. But the important 1 is, if I play it “right” and lose because not 1 win with the “right” ways, why do I put the time and effort in doing those things. Won’t I become more miserable? And thus, no one will risk it. (Comfort zone is the bitch)
So then, what can we do? I think atleast 10 people / 2 teams start with putting effort in this. The teams are all in the same pages of the “right” ways are the best ways and fuck it, we are going through the bottom of this. We can only start with our own, but we can’t make it with our own.
Hopefully, this conversation can be spread well, love to see 1 day we will get more excited in the international games? Remember when IG was kicked out by TL in MSI? When nobody knows who is going to win, that’s when the HYPE comes in.
Thanks for reading. Be positive and hope you guys are well.
This is the sort of thing I do with all of my hobbies. You can apply so much random stuff to all different parts of life and even other hobbies.
Sun Tzu's art of war applies to business, league, competitive-anything, and you can get these principles by just learning the same fundamentals in any one of them!
Learning not to get angry at things you can't control similarly fits in life, in all types of solo-queue across all games, and to luck as well
And this is just the tip of the iceberg, just about every single piece of wisdom can be used elsewhere
Fun to listen to and funny to hear how lots of things discussed are completely the opposite to dota scene. Would love to see the starcraft pro discussion too
The comment where Zven, Fudge, and Blaber don't care as much is nice to hear. I watched them win LCS and Berzerker and EMENES looked visibly moved. Every other player just looked like they kind of shrugged and said "Eh, just another day at the office." while fireworks were going on behind them. Zven doesn't look like he's done anything to improve in the last 2 years.
Why put blaber also I'm a zven hater but it really felt like he tried his best the biggest problem is fudge
EMENES thing is akin to Crownie tearing up after the semifinal win, he was almost cast aside, labelled as toxic and impossible to work with, never to be picked up again. An then, less than a year later he picks up a trophy - insane validation for him after a tough tough time, a truly special moment he couldn't have dreamt of, especially happening so fast
For someone who was never that competitive in league i feel this really informative. Thank you and everyone who was in the call.
A pipedream would be LS making a team with all of the players who came to him and dominate whichever region they choose to be in. Showing the other teams a different (better) way.
The fact that we had that happening with C9, and then it all came crashing down in a completely unexpected way because NA wants their handshake and paycheck
@@abdallahhakeem5185 yeah, that's why I was thinking a brand new team not an entrenched establishment. I was thinking any region due to the impacts being worldwide regardless.
Similar to LS I discovered I was autistic fairly recently, it does affect things, to expand on LS' analogy of it being similar to colour blindness, it's social colour blindness. This is why having a team who know LS is much more beneficial than a corporate establishment with strict procedures, etc. And would enable the players, staff and LS to reach greater heights
@@abdallahhakeem5185 Nah there's no way all of them agreed. I firmly believe some players complained about his metholodology which led to him getting kicked. I also think his idea of the avengers team is a by product of everything at C9 not having the same mentality and personality at playing the game. I am absolutely convinced this was the case
@@abdallahhakeem5185 not true.
@@abdallahhakeem5185 LS coached multiple teams and failed in every single one. lol
This is the best league podcast I've listened to. Quality content
This is so wholesome, really love seeing Nick so happy :D
Had to leave before the convo ended yesterday. Thanks for uploading entire discussion. Was lowkey a surprise podcast 😆
The topic at 18:20 u can also see it on cyclism and high performance competitions, where south american athletes who live in high altitude create and have a lot more red blood cells on their bodies, because of low oxygen concentrations on thouse locations. Because of that athletes of diferent regions and contries, 3/4 weeks prior to the competition go train on thouse environments to develop similar fisical structures and adaptations.
49:59 in sc2 when GSL announced a huge format change a few months ago (effectively killing the korean SC2 scene) many of the korean pros were messaging eachother in support and drinking together talking about a huge end of an era... Could you ever imagine this happening in EU?
Don't forget Grubby from Warcraft 3. Absolute mad lad who became a top player through creativity.
Yeah there are multiple good examples from Warcraft 3
Also to Crownie's point, Arslan did not train in Korea, dude couldn't even enter the country prior to the tournament where he removed every single Korean player from the tournament.
Sending you love LS
Two things that I want to say are 1. As estern European who moved to study abroad to Germany i can say that LS as an American is overlooking the cultural diferences. In a team in LEC now days its rare to have three players from the same country. And people from the northern parts of Europe are more "cold" and are sloe to build connections. What I mean by that is that when they meet new people at first they keep their distance and then they can become friends. On the other side people from southern countries are a lot more friendly a lot more out going. And you can see that also from the cultural stereotypes. In Spain people think its only siestas and hot weather. In Italy its all about dolce vita and Germany is about hard work. Also balkan or slavic people have completely different way of talking because they have completely different alphabets and ways of structuring sentences and so on. Offen when people hear me speaking my language on the phone or with my mother they think we are fighting constantly. The reason why 2019 G2 worked is because all the players wanted to play with caps. This is why there were poaching accusations against G2.
The second point I want to make is that LS comparing the star craft community and the lol community is wrong because the gamer culture is wrong. Before the community( I asumme based on the things I've heard) was way smaller and people wanted to have connections with other people who have the same passion. This is why when you find such a person you want to be on good terms with them. Nowadays people start playing league because a friend told them to play. Which is way different. You are not forced to find a person on the other side of the world you, can find it in your country and you can be a more lot yourself and act as your culture has told you.
To be a team nowadays in LEC ( I think as a spectator and a person who studies in another country and is forced to make friends with people from different places) is very important to have time with each other to see if they can understand each other. That may sound stupid for people but when you don't understand someone you start to have resentment. But it's hard for some teams that start scrimping late, and have to always catch up. This is why teams have to start scriming and doing team building long before the season starts.
That's what I think I am sorry to the person who will read that and I hope my point is clear enough. I hope I brought a different perspective.
Thank you so much for this video, it was so interesting.
the point at 54:00 is incredibly profound. really well put.
An easy example of a team that succeeded despite their environment is CSGO's Luminosity, with the classic Coldzera, Fer, FNX, Fallen and Taco lineup. If you don't know, they were a brazilian squad that came to NA to practice, the dominant region being Europe and had to push through a lot of adversity like three people having to sleep in the same bed. In spite of practicing in an objectively inferior region and having to push through economic hardship, they managed to win two csgo world championships back to back. How did they do it? Other than the clear drive of the players, Fallen (if I'm remembering correctly) explained in an interview that they would scrim NA teams (who btw wouldn't even make a deep run in said world championships) and they would practice with the intent of always doing the correct play. So they would let NA teams get away with their usual freeflow and ego shenanigans, and if it worked against them, they would just shrug it off and say "a european team would never make such a play", since in a tournament setting it was too risky and easy to punish. Basically they ignored what would have worked in the moment and against their immediate oposition, and invested in playing the long game which then paid off in the big tournaments.
I think if this LEC and LCS team wants to win, they need like really work hard on their team gameplay. Tbh , I think the reason why T1 has a great players and great gameplay is that they improve on every corner of the game , like the timings, ganks , the champion movements, the warding in specific time. Those little things adds up until it is a huge advantage if done correctly. Also I think T1 did a lot of data gathering on everything about league, so they can know how to do a certain thing on a certain moment , and also the genius one is that , they get younger players so they can implant the knowledge of the game to them because it is harder to train a pro player with a history or like achievements because sometimes ego is on the way until younger players they just accept what you want them to do.
LCS/LEC players have stated they want an ideal work day where they put less hours in. Can't expect improvement when LCK/LPL teams are investing approx 2-3x the amount of time and effort.
Yeah if that continue to happen I think no doubt LCK and LPL will be always ahead on other different regions. But sometimes yeah overwork make players depressed or retired like Nuguri. But I guess it is a high risk, high reward. And also depends on different organizations on how they deal with that issues
In my opinion the best thing LS brings to league is not whether his ideas or way to play the game is right or wrong. Its that he makes people think. Or more so that he challenges people to think. He offers a different view of the game that many people overlook. So even if you disagree with him you should be able to have something to take away from what he says.
Can someone please explain to me why FUDGE is on the list at 38:30 ? What has he ever done that makes you think he was one of the best top laners in the WORLD?
Where can I watch/listen your MTG podcast?
As an autistic person I feel LS's pain at that end. I've known about my autism since I was ~6yo and it is still a struggle to deal with when talking to others. I have so much trouble talking to anyone. My wife is only able to understand me because she is it to and we understand each other. I've lost friends from saying what LS said about autism because of people thinking it is me being shitty or stupid or making excuses when I'm calling for help to understand.
Bro just open your mouth and say words it's not hard trust me dude
@@jimb0072 There's this word called empathy, do you know about it? If you don't know how to be constructive, say nothing at all, it's not hard trust me dude.
We people in the spectrum aren't trying to be insecure/introvert, that comes naturally because We struggle to go with the flow. We very easily decide who We are and what we like and is very hard to fit if the people around us doesn't like similar stuff or behave on a similar way. Our social skills aren't good and We know it, that's why there're a lot of campaigns so other people help us, if You know someone in the spectrum and want to help, You're the one who need to talk to that person, help them fit in your group if that person wants to but doesn't know how to. It's not an issue of confidence, it's just how our brains work. A lot of us are very confident in our skills actually, just like LS is very confident in his understanding of the game. So, just be nice or keep doing your own, don't go out of your way to make people feel worst with a careless sentence.
as someone who followed you since season 3, and as someone who has been working on his own autism spectrum disorder, it's baffeling to me how you didn't relaize your tendancies earlier
maybe you guys are the avengers
I think the best counter to the majority of this convo is to look at a scene like overwatch, very team oriented while also having a skill diff in many aspects. Yet western and eastern players have good friendships and communicate well and succeed. I honestly think LOL is just toxic.
All due to lack of voice comms. 100x easier to build up rapport through voice comms and 100x easier to dehumanize others through text only.
so easy to deal with flamers on ow, league your only choice is mute
Banger podcast. Please keep this going!
45:00 idk whos talking here but said a great point "why is it in Korea you want to play better and catchup, when you are not even the best in your role in NA" seriously such a strong point especially in NA. NA goals are so high and unachievable because they dont have a foundation laid for a target goal.
LS spittin facts this time about the mentality between east and west players
I am not finished yet but when it came to making interpersonal relationships, LS forgets that Europe has a massive history and ppl from countries have animosity towards ppl from other countries. You've just seen it 2 days ago with Spanish ppl flaming Nisqy and wanting him to be kicked out of madlions while french ppl defended him. It's different.
55:20 Great talk so far and I like the interjections and clarifications to progress the conversation, but this point essentially saying "pros need to socialize" is too funny (and unironically true). I see pros intermingling the same as asking one tricks for advice on a specific champion to understand it better. Pros that open more avenues to new ideas can gain a stronger sense of curiosity from talking to other pros with new ideas (motivation) and help their unique gameplay (skill). If this is better to do, then everyone does it and you have a stronger region when the sum of its parts are greater than the individuals.
ls is there any way you could upload these long form talks to spotify to download as podcasts ?
This is amazing!
Talk to Serral! In 2018 he beat all Koreans in all SC2 matches. He made a statement that you can only practice a certain amount of time effectively. I don't remember the exact time, but I'm sure it was a lot shorten than what the Koreans do... If he felt like he lost his focus and could not practice meaningfully anymore he would take a break and walk in the forest with his dog. I bet it's hard to beat or even match the Asians in diligence, but you could beat them with relevance.
1:04:10 those conversations 100% do not need to be stressful. There are simple answers to the questions that all players have, the issue is not being able to arrive at the same conclusion due to knowledge gap between the players.
Wow is an interesting counter example where the west is so much better than the east. For example when Reckful’s rmp was by far the best in the world, Reckful simply stated that he was far more selfish as a player than other teams. The west has always had a culture of individualism vs the east being as Ls says as a hivemind.
I love how everyone jumbed on LS for not putting Perkz on the list
I believe you can learn creativity because creativity is simply just the construction of new ways of approaching a subject.
No timestamps? We back in 2010 or something?
No attention span? We back in 2023 or something?
Nemisis not joining C9 with LS makes more sense now. I bet he didn't think the personalities were compatable or the level of the team was not high enough. Blows
This is one of the best conversations i listened to
I just had human resources class
My question to the teacher was
Who are peaople forbidden from taking like humans to each other and giving structure to what can be said
Leaving Jankos out of that list is so embarassing
I would genuinely love to see the videos mentioned at 24:01
the lenguage barrier was so hard to show the points they want to put across. They should take the subject with preparation so they can talk more in deep on the matter because it's really interesting to listen from people who are inside the league.
Reven is so 8Head. Just seeing where both of them are going and leading the both to the conclusion or actual question faster.
Saying Ruler and Guma are friends was a really bad example, Guma clearly sees all other adcs as competition bec hes insecure. He literally said when he and Berserker were in t1 academy that he's being careful with not sharing any tips with him bec that guy might take his job. But Ruler and Deft are friends, they've been the best adcs for years, they respect each other and they want to maintain that status so sharing knowledge is beneficial for them. But yes other lck players exchange info with each other, for example Keria dm'd Canyon for a Neeko jungle build after her rework came out .When a new jungle champ is viable ofc the best jungler will be looking for the best build for it. That is expected, and others come to him asking for this info, its a sign of respect. Who in the lcs or lec is that "best jungler " or "best adc" who immediatelly when something new is available will be doing the work of trying diff builds? there isnt anyone, everyone is more or less equal and only interested in their own thing (for example Yike with his carry junglers). Im am convinced that western players see "being the best " as a feeling they are pursuing while lck players see it as a certain amount of work that they put in which also grants results.
Crownshot is a real homie.
who is samsungcoach in the call? he was really enjoyable to listen to. he criticized and questioned the players in the call without being confrontational and brought up some really solid points
In psychology, interestingly motivation and creative thinking isn't an inherent trait, but a developed and trained ability. Proplayers stand to gain a lot from counseling or therapy, from redirecting and strengthening motivation, to learning creative thinking and critical thinking skills. Proplayers can also learn social skills they need to work within teams and voice criticism effectively. Of course the big caveat here is that the proplayers would need to desire that change for any of this to work in the first place. On that note, the willingness to accept challenges of ones beliefs in the form of disagreement, criticism, mistakes or self-reflection, also known as cognitive flexibility, is the only statistically supported trait(out of 5) that affects a LoL player's ability to climb, based on an actual scientific study. You can read more in "Cognitive Flexibility and Decision Making Predicts Expertise in the MOBA Esport, League of Legends". More reasons to go to therapy I guess.
Reven was the goat in this convo
well, g2 do have the desire to win but it is not enough. you also need to break out from the western playstyle and lead a charge to the front and sprint it. and that is a very hard task for a team to do. because that means you will be the pioneer that helped the whole region step up.
g2, followed by BDS are the 2 EU teams that can lead this kind of charge
It's really dumb to say that a lot of western players genuinelly want to win when all they do is copy what LCK does, be it good or bad (2 control wards), and do 0 thinking of their own.
Or they will never win because they have all admit to putting less time in the game to practice. That would mean blaming your favorite LEC/LCS players. Cough Fudge.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg do you think we have endless talent to throw at the 18hr a day wall and hope it sticks? LPL and LCK players practice more bc there's enough talented players for the teams to pick and choose only the ones with good work ethic. "lazy" players make it to the LCS/LEC because there's no-one with work ethic talented enough to replace them.
blaming the players for a statistics problem makes no sense. instead we should be focusing on how to develop player work ethic and self discipline. the changes need to come from a coaching and management level, not the player level.
Damn I really wish LS would speak with Serral or Raynor and ask them their opinion and perspective on why and how they’ve been able to overcome the best Korean players at SC2
People are overthinking this whole west vs east skill gap thing way too much.
NA will never catch up to Korea/China because the players are lazy and have no interest in putting in the work required to reach that level. If NA actually wants to improve as a region, they'd fire 90% of the washed up overpaid pros currently playing and replace them with hungry new talent. Instead they just bring back Doublelift for the 19th time.
idk who is the samsung coach guy but I really liked his takes
Wait that discussion was 1 and a half hour i didn't even notice
Ok this convo/debate was great and all, but next time please make the discord names a bit bigger since I am not really sure who's talking, thanks.
I'm not kidding, I know BDS looked completely shit when they got exposed at their last 3 losses but I still think they would be the west's best hope at MSI. Because I genuinely think that one of the Asian teams would disrespect Adam, let him get Darius/Olaf and get clapped. Obviously if they do their due diligence it wouldn't matter but they'd still do better than MAD/C9 so far.
bb played very good against doran g2 lost because caps underperform
Copium. MAD already smashed Adam Darius by splitting across the map and making ghost Darius useless. Adam is also a really bad top laner. BDS would have lost to the wildcard teams.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg why are you still here just to hate btw? I’ve seen you like 15 times in LS videos’ comments. Your conclusions are always never logical because you are a very emotional hateful person. There are stylistic differences in teams and BDS’ style is more stable and has less variance than MAD. BDS are better than MAD when it comes to vsing the east. You lack critical thinking so please refrain from making further statements on LS videos lmao.
the thing that players like adam nisqy etc are at the top of the league is scary those players should be in the bottom 5
no timecodes ? lol
Arslan's name getting dropped gave me goosebumps
Timers?
Damn this was funnn
Caps should DM Nemesis for 1v1 because his Laning and matchup knowledge seems to be terrible atm. I was wondering what would be stopping him from doing this until I heard how stupid the egos in LEC can be.
Forg1ven actually set the adc meta with the atk spd runes back in the day. Before that ppl were using ad.
Trymbi always so wise
Based convo
We can see how exposed LS gets with people that actually know what they talking about, also that list is delusional af
this list was created by everyone in the call my guy and the people "that actually know what they are talking about" come to LS for advices and agree with him on almost everything that he is saying.
@@tupoibaran3706 it was and it wasn't because they r so tired of arguing with LS at that point that they don't even care lmao u can notice
@@koreannidalee15 "it was and it wasn't" is a shit statement cause you just made your entire point irrelevant lmao + it might be hard to believe for you, but LS wasn't even the one talking the most on the podcast so your words have 0 value
@@tupoibaran3706 That's not a flex considering the worst pro players are from the west. The fact they get paid a ton with more support than wildcard region is sad enough.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg Idk how exactly your argument correlates to mine. Also LCK players have asked LS for advices, too, if that’s what you are concerned about .
Best EU team:
Top - Wunder
JG - Jankos
Mid - Caps
ADC - Hans Sama
Supp - Hylissang
(this is not best players, but the best TEAM, 1st option carry caps and then Hans, rest is enabling these 2 players, ofc caps can't play stuff like naut mid, he needs counter picks and play 1v9 champs. Also I know Hyli ints mid/late game, but he's the best aggressive supp in lane in the west and I need try get Hans ahead)
If you can also take NA players then maybe:
Top - Fudge
ADC - Berserker
same other 3
To consistently complete in bo5 against top2 Korean/China you need a good system with 1 or 2 carry options.
I think you need Caps because he is the only X factor in the west
The fact that Fudge is on the same list as Caps and Rekkles is baffling.
awesome roundtable. we're lucky we get these group talks around international events, too bad thats really the only time when they happen
i would love to see Jankos in thus type of covo with LS
Everything seems to hit the nail from how the West falls so short of Korea and China. You can't just stick the best players on one team. There are many factors that go deeper than that than just mechanics and game skill. Synergy and mindset like they talk about are super important. Which is why Western "Superteams" are essentially "Paper Champions" as on paper, they can win an International Trophy. Realistically however, you can have a clash of playstyle and personality that just causes the entire project to collapse and fold within itself.
the arslan ash tekken example was off but if you wanted to tie that into this competitive gaming discussion why not also take a look at the culture of that pakistan tekken scene? especially since korean/asian competitive gaming diehard culture is seen as S-tier and yet there is another contender.
LS you NEED to get duoking on one of these holy fuck would be so insane content
fudge on the list lol?
Its nice to know that me inting and flaming the pros I get in my low masters games is ruining western league :D
please more long form content LS
16:20 since when do scrims matter LS Madge, plus u are training for a bo5 not a bo50 so while i agree damwon has better players and if they play on scrims where g2 is trying stuff and figuring out things those scrims won't matter because they will condense those 50 games to three winning games in b05.
2019 meta was better than s10 and s11, nowadays u cant create anyhitng before u could win with anything plus many players were more easy to beat with strats
@@whisky_cat Copium. Only reason G2 had success vs LCK was because LCK was adapting to the rune reforged meta. People forget in 2019 G2 was still god awful vs LPL teams. Now that LCK can play the skirmish meta LEC is back to the mean; worse than LCK/LPL by a lot and competing with NA for 3rd best major region.
5:36 this has to be cap Zven literally role swapped to support, clearly doesn't like it as much as ADC, and yet he stayed support so he can be on C9 and try to win. Blaber also cares so much about League that he watches the other regions FOR FUN. I'm pretty confident Fudge is trying hard as well given that he has made winning integral to his reputation as an ego player (I'm not sure if he's really like that or if it's an act but either way he has a motive beyond just winning is more fun than losing). LS has been in the room with them and I haven't, but it just seems like a really bad take from my perspective as a person who has been watching C9 since before any of these players were here.
pretty sure fudge has made trashtalking and then getting slapped his personality
Nah it's def fudge. Puts less time into vods/champs queue. Thirsting around. Gets carried by C9 and has a large fan base to defend his mediocrity of play. Once again comes out as the worst top in another international. Licorice/BB/Chasy all look better.
@11:42 Showmaker was tired of being a competitive face figure, like tired of reddit complaining about his gameplay... He was litterly right after spamming soloq to try out some new dark tech..
And when it comes to talent poll in korea: if you wanna have fun, then you can play 10 games a day.. If you wanna go pro, then be serious: minimum 30 games a day..