Doctor Who: Dark Water/Death In Heaven - REVIEW - Cybercember
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
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When your episode is so bad, the BBC have to misrepresent it in order to save face.
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"The darkest day. The blackest hour. Chin up, shoulders back. Let's see what we're made of, you and I."
This review has been 6 years in the making. So let's celebrate that persistence. Be sure to hit that "like" button and also leave any comment down below to appease the almighty algorithm!
At around 19:50 if I remember correctly those two guards aren’t real. They were projections as evidenced from the fact they both vanished in one device touch once she leaves her shackles.
That’s how I view that at least 😊
Also at 23:30, I concede immediately that this is purely my interpretation of events and not what is in the script. That said, I don’t think it is that out of character for the Doctor to oppose switching on an inhibitor since it effectively means completing the Cyber-conversion process.
The Doctor prefers to live in hope that conversion can be reversed, Davison’s doctor even stated in Spare Parts that he would rather lose all his regenerations than face eternity as a Cyberman. Therefore, agreeing to turn on the inhibitor would be hugely out of character for him since the Doctor views Cyber-conversion as a process worse than multiple deaths.
I’m curious what you think of this interpretation, even if Moffat couldn’t be bothered to put in the legwork for this kind of explanation in-universe. 🙂
Stop sitting on the fence! Did you like this story or not?
Oh, follow-up to my earlier comment, did some more skipping around and I have some more to say;
- Yes it IS a con, in that it isn't the "natural" afterlife. Missy created it. It's fake. It's not where everyone goes after death by default.
- What's wrong with a writer re-using ideas? Seriously, what is wrong with that? Just to use Doctor Who examples, Spearhead from Space was largely based on the 1965 film Invasion, which Robert Holmes wrote the plot for, and Robert Shearman uses the same setting of "world where genre cliches are literal laws of nature" in two seperate Doctor Who stories; The Holy Terror and The Chimes of Midnight (also Punchline if you count unlicensed stories). And Holmes and Shearman are two of the most well-regarded Doctor Who writers!
- In the Forest of the Night isn't saying you shouldn't take medication for anything, it's about how we over-medicate people rather than trying to understand them and the actual causes of their affliction. Which is true. I don't even like that story much but it is not saying that.
Right, that's probably it. I'm done skipping though now.
Still sad that Capaldi’s last words as the Doctor weren’t “FUCKITY BYE!”
Maybe they were his last words to Steven Moffat
@@BH-98 😂 i believe it was
That cut has to exist somewhere
"Dont cremate me" always felt like it was the result of someone browsing the SCP wiki late at night and wanted to incorporate that sort of tone into the show.
Still amazes me how people missed Capaldi's subtle nod to Jon Pertwee's worzel Gumage with the tea cup and saucer.
I missed that, although I'm familiar with Worzel Gummidge. I'd just assumed Capaldi had picked it up from an earlier generation, as my paternal grandfather and maternal great-grandfather used to drink tea that way :)
God that rant on 3W was worth the six year wait. Even I wasn’t expecting it to go on that long.
19:29 Yeah this scene annoys me aswell, and the excuse that the defenders come up with are just as stupid, "oh well Missy obviously hypnotised the guards!" THEN YOU FUCKING SHOW THAT. Don't have the guards as voiceless extras who just get killed half a second AFTER the Master escapes. Either have a shot of the guards looking visibly dazed by hypnotism, or have Missy slowly walk up to Osgood, who orders the guards to apprehend her, and then show them dropping their guns, or maybe point their guns at Osgood or something. Claiming that Moffat intended for the guards to be hypnotised IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH
Agreed. Show, don't tell.
This review sums up all the problems with the Moffat era. The characters and their motivations simply do not make sense; so much dialogue is self-congratulatory wank by the writer; the themes are "profound" until you scratch the surface for a millisecond
While a convoluted point, leading an army isn't really out of a character for The Master, they more often than not have an army of whatever monster they're working with that week.
The clues kind of in the name 'Master'
my issue was I could never see ANY version of the Master handing a cyber army to the Doctor and not be interested in using it themselves. Tho missy not being like most versions of the Master is kind of her arc
@@Ben-vf5gk Sure, although as you say this is a exploration of a different side to the character, about how they feel about their friendship with the Doctor.
@@skeeter2420 Yeah it's just that previous incarnations managed to explore that friendship much better whilst still retaining their ambition. I don't think any scene in Death in Heaven comes close to the phone call scene between 10 and Simm in Sound of Drums.
@@Ben-vf5gk Fair enough, I'd agree that Death in Heaven isn't the best exploration of the relationship out there but I wouldn't say it's out of character, just a different aspect of the character
The 1996 movie that barely anyone talks about is a Master Story and features the eighth doctor who doesn’t either encounter the Daleks nor the Cybermen except big finish stories.
if I rewrote this episode I would not have the cybermen in it at all but rather a return of the Minotaurs from the God Complex whom are bringing back the dead to make the Earth their latest colony in their empire with Missy siding with the Minotaurs due to the terrible treatment their cousins the Nimons faced at the hands of the Time Lords also I would have Missy under the alias of Reverend McMasters
How about you do a Master marathon in December?
This is just my understanding of the plot of the episode.
The idea that people feel pain even after death is a con set up by Missy. The only people who feel pain after death are those who have had their dying consciousness uploaded into the Nethersphere by Missy. It is Missy herself who is hurting them. She is doing this to convince those in the Nethershere to sign a contract allowing her to remove their emotions. Why Missy needs consent is admittedly not explained but I think this is par for the course with Dr Who, the how of the big weird Sci-fi concepts are rarely explained .
The reason Danny has his emotions is because he does not sign the contract. You see it in some of the footage in your review, he sees the boy he accidently killed in the reflection of the screen and decides he should live with those feelings. Thus, when resurrected Danny is in a Cyber body but hasn't had his emotions removed yet. Now this is purely speculative but i would guess the Brigadier would have refused the deal too which is why as a Cyberman he has control of his faculties.
I think this explains most of your larger plot inconsistency issues. As for the character inconsistencies I don't think 12 acts out of character at all. Danny has frequently compared him as a general unwilling to get his hands dirty across all of series 8. Furthermore, throughout the entire 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th Doctors eras it has been pointed out that he often inadvertently moulds his companions into soldiers and leaves them to make the hard decisions. Journeys End is the episode that most bluntly gives this interpretation. 12 himself goes onto to ponder if he has turned Clara into a worse person multiple times in Series 9 and he specifically leaves her to make the hard decision in Kill the Moon, so I think him doing the same in Death in Heaven makes sense with his characterisation at this point.
As for the darker content, I agree whole heartedly that a full content warning should have appeared before the episode. I think all episodes of Dr Who should have a content warning really and it pisses me off how behind the times the BBC are with these kinds of things. I am also really sorry that people have personally attacked you over the years as someone's opinions on a piece of fiction are not something to be abused over. I hope you don't see this comment as another attack in turn. it's just this is a story I personally have really enjoyed and I think my understanding of the plot and themes are just as valid as yours are.
This is the best head canon. And they should've have made more clear in this story.
Clara died in Name of the Doctor. The Clara in 50th onwards is a different one. Hence characterization, careers, boyfriend etc. Also why Missy commented on picking her well, wasn't the first Clara she chose. Headcanon rules
Also why Clara in 8 and 9 send to forget things she should remember
I'll take that as part of my headcanon.
That damaged Invasion Cyberman head is the only good thing to come out of this. I’m surprised Steven managed to remember which version of the head was needed given his usual track record of intellect.
I could not agree with you more about this story. I had forgotten how bad it was until I watched this review. The trauma is real again!!
Regarding the "Only Organic Matter can be seen through it" rule:
It stands to reason that most of the Cybermen in the memorial still have there flesh.
Using the Dark Water in swimming pools would (Assumedly) show you a pool of Skeletons.
Except Doctor Chang's skin can still be seen through Dark Water, just not his watch.
@@carlosalmonacid8958 The rules are inconsistent
So, what's the point of hiding the inorganic material. Why pose giant skeletons in tanks with see-through windows to hide Cyber-Men, you know instead of just hiding them?
It's a flawed but enjoyable story in my opinion. I feel a lot of your points here seemed to miss context or were about relatively minor points but each to their own views.
F***, that was the Brigadier?!!! I didn't even realise until watching this review, though in hindsight it was obvious.
Man you really must not watch this show
The whole thing about the Doctor not letting Clara kill Missy, but letting her kill Danny is so bad that I literally wanted to attack Steven Moffat, A Clockwork Orange style. I honestly feel raped by this story. That's like a father not letting a villain kill his wife, but he lets the villain kill their children.
Honestly I loved series 8 and these two episodes
disregarding the chibnall era, series 8 is the worst series in nu who, everything falls flat. everything.
At least we have the brilliant World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls tomorrow to make up for this.
Such a letdown we don't get Christmas specials anymore. Had The Doctor Falls ended with a regeneration I think I would have really loved it!! :)
The brilliant World Enough and Time and the meh Doctor Falls
And then timeless children as the last review?? Oh boy...
He's not affected by the conditioning, because he doesn't get a chance to delete his emotions, which we see at the end of the first part.
I think that might involve paying a little more attention than was given.
Aah, so every single Cyberman (at least in this story) chose to get their emotions removed, but Danny Pink was the only one who didn't because... reasons? Theres no other person at that point in time that didn't choose to remove their emotions? Oh, except the Cyber-Brig ofc -_-
@@HazarTulum If you're going to be like that, then let's ask this: Why offer an option? Missy isn't the sort to justify her actions with moralistic philosophies.
@@HazarTulum well we aren't shown any other than Danny and the brig but it doesn't mean they weren't out there. Sure it's convenient for the sake of interactions between the main characters that Danny is the only emotional one in the graveyard but it's not as ridiculous as him being the only one in the world (that said, not explaining this openly is flawed writing).
All it showed was him hovering over the button. It never acknowledges whether he pressed it or not and whether that would influence the conversion of he didn't.
It would also beg the question of why bother converting him physically, if he didn't consent to the mental conditioning? Surely they could just decide not to convert him or just go the full 10 miles anyway
I dunno man, I think in regard to the whole "it's a racket" I think the implication is that this afterlife is something Missy manufactured and that the link between consciousness and the physical dead carcas was a clause within that. So the real untampered afterlife remains ambiguous. There's a lot of disconnect and loose ends in this story but honestly, I found it was at least a satisfying one with a good sense of momentum (which is more than can be said for many Moffat finales). It's quite a macabre story and I get that this would rub folks up the wrong way but honestly, I appreciated that Doctor Who genuinely went dark with this one.
Holy mackerel, it’s famous nerd culture RUclips star Channel Pup! What are you doing here
I mean, if the "fake afterlife" has spanned all of human history and is, for all intents and purposes, completely indistinguishable from a *real* fucked up afterlife, then I don't see why it makes a difference that it's a con other than "at least the Doctor fixes it after this story." It still means that everyone who ever died in this universe suffered horribly for God knows how long.
That aside, here's my take on the inclusion of a concept this nightmarish in Doctor Who: Doctor Who has often had pretty horrific ideas in its episodes, intentionally or otherwise. I'd say that people feeling everything that happens to their bodies after death is something that you can put in your script, absolutely. ...But if you're going to write something this existentially terrifying into your story aimed at family audiences, it had better be a damn good story. Quite apart from the points about suitability for children that Mr TARDIS made (again, I think you can just about get away with it if the story is good enough to justify that concept and it's treated with the appropriate gravity - this story fails on both counts), you're never going to be able to come up with a concept scarier than the idea that for tens of thousands of years, everyone who ever lived was agonizingly tortured in the afterlife with no control over their fate, no matter how they died, who they were, how they acted in life or what they believed. You get *one shot* at pulling off the scariest fucking idea you will ever have, so you'd better make it count.
I totally agree. Some fans think a manufactured afterlife in Hell that eventually ends means no big problem after all.@@Talisguy
The most frustrating thing about Steven Moffat is that he's either the best ever writer for Doctor Who or he's the absolute worst, often at the same time within the same episode. This is why 12 is probably my favourite Doctor: even though there are overwhelming lows in his era, Moffat just gives him these moments that display a complex and profound understanding of the character and Capaldi just runs with it. Imagine what he could have done if the quality had been consistent throughout - such a missed opportunity.
I do feel bad for the Moff though; I get the sense that he was utterly exhausted making Sherlock and Doctor Who at the same time, hence why that gap between Series 9 and 10 seemed to completely refresh the show (The Lie of the Land/Twice Upon a Time aside).
He seems to have the same problem bands talk about with their first two releases - "You have twenty years to write your first album, and only one to write your second". It's as if he dreams about writing shows for a long time, and so writes one good series which he's really thought about, then he seems to lose the time to decide which ideas are good and which are bad before series 2. Sherlock and Doctor Who are both like this IMHO (Jekyll didn't quite make it through series 1). It may be coincidence, but it also seems to be the case that an exception is when he writes under another showrunner who can do the job for him, and it's under these circumstances that we got such excellent episodes as Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, and Blink. For all the good and bad during his tenure, I think the worst mistake the Doctor Who team made in that time was deciding that the gruff 12 didn't work, and changing his personality back to Matt Smith/David Tennant for series 9. That was a tremendous disservice both to Peter Capaldi's strengths, and to the most interesting new characterisation we'd seen for the Doctor since the damaged 9th. When he locked Clara in with the clockwork men in Deep Breath, I got chills. I never would again after that series.
It's hard to feel bad for someone who breathes his own farts instead of oxygen
@@bigdaddydons6241you should get along fine with him.
I'd argue that Clara's betrayal actually does work thematically when taking the whole of Series 8 into account. Once Danny discovers Clara's relationship with the Doctor in The Caretaker, she promises to end her travels after one final trip. But she ultimately finds she can't give it up and instead lies to Danny about ending things. Her lies continue during Flatline, an episode that also explores Clara's arc of becoming similar to The Doctor. Danny then discovers Clara's still travelling with the Doctor in ITFOTN and confronts her about it, asking for her to think about things and tell him the truth tomorrow. Dark Water then opens the next day with Clara attempting to tell Danny this truth.
Clara shouting 'shut up' does feel jarring out of context, but it fits perfectly with the theme of Clara becoming more like The Doctor. "Shut up" had basically been one of Twelves catchphrases. This all then contrasts quite effectively with her sudden betrayal of the Doctor. After lying to Danny and effectively choosing The Doctor over him, to see her do something so drastic for the man she loves is impactful, even if it means confronting the very person she'd been seemingly favouring over him.
Out of context it arguably doesn't work as well, and I can see your point about Clara's reputation as a control freak lessening the impact of the moment.
Agree!
Completely understand the criticisms for Death in Heaven but Dark Water was an amazing setup and was very well received so this should be an interesting watch
i think that can be said with most moffat storys as his time as show runner great build up terrible resolution he really has a habit of dropping the ball but not while in the RTD era because i think maybe RTD could rain moffat in it's when moffat able to do what he wants he goes to far
jackal
season 3 and 4 of sherlock
wedding of river song
hell bent
the monk trilogy
MRTARDIS: "This is the worst thing you've ever done!"
Steven Moffat: "You say that so much it's lost all meaning!"
Danny isn’t “somehow not affected by the conditioning,” he was activated before he’d agreed to turn off his emotions. Now one could still ask “why does Missy need consent for that when other Cyber conversion stories never got hung up about consent?” but I’m just saying there is a reason.
This one clearly rubbed you up the wrong way, and while there’s some massive issues with it (those soldiers guarding Missy, SERIOUSLY), I still like it more than I dislike it.
Yea I agree with this explanation, but then also that means loads of people who have died since Danny dying should also have their emotional inhibitors turned off. And then the Brigadier does fight the conditioning later in the story. This plot sort of comes apart at the seams but I also find some enjoyment in it
@@LaurenceGill2000 how do you know no-one else had their inhibitors turned off. Also, I think it's intended that the Brigadier didn't delete his emotions
Big fan, nice to see you in the comments section.
@The Reverse Not to mention the Master tormented our heroes with sissor sisters and his dancing, honestly where is the justice?
@@Ben-vf5gk the Master has some moves tho
A thing i find stupid is that Clara throwing the keys is pointless because the doctor can snap his fingers to open the TARDIS doors so Clara threat is pointless (if it was real)
My memory of this era of DW is poor, but I also seem to recall Clara herself opening the TARDIS with a snap at some point.
@@TheKingofall42 all the time
@@attckonutube Given that the TARDIS can pilot herself, she should be able to unlock her own doors.
Also what the story does not take into account either is that in human culture, there are many concepts of what happens when you die. Some even don't include an afterlife but straight-up reincarnation into another body, either into their own family as descendents or into another person no matter the relation. First, these people must be confused and scared as hell that things transpired contrary to what they have believed their entire life and secondly, it also puts our western concept of an afterlife before all else when the 3W things applies to not only all people from Earth but to future people from other worlds who may have a completely different concept about life after death. Also, does this mean that only those people get uploaded into the matrix who believe in an afterlife and not in something else after death?
The Promised Land subplot doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense, but I think Missy just scoops up whoever from whenever she feels considering the Nethersphere was sought as far back as the Crusades and into the far future with the Daleks’ war on humanity.
@@DuelaDent52 I like to think her Yandere obsession with the Doctor makes it so she just snatches people from the places or eras he's been to just to fuck with him later. Like she'd prop up Rory or Amy in front of him just to make him suffer.
18:24 As a huge fan of the 3rd doctor era this short bit about the brigadier tugged at my heart strings more than the actual episode did
I disagree with the don’t cremate me thing being too far. I think it’s just far enough. What would be too far is if they actually showed it. I dunno. I just like the idea of Doctor Who being a bit more gritty and ruthless. If you disagree I totally get it.
I like Dark Water a lot. Death in Heaven can fuck off tho. Not a fan of Missy’s ultimate goal. “I want the Doctor to be muh friend”.
How many times has New Who set up a great story in part one to ruin it in part 2?
Almost all the 2 partners!
@@nicksmith3245 End Of Time was great in both parts and let's not forget Bad Wolf/Parting of The Ways, Human Nature/Family Of Blood, Army of Ghosts/Doomsday and The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances
@@nicksmith3245 It’s especially prevalent during the Capaldi era. Dark Water, Heaven Sent, and World Enough and Time are all some of my favourite episodes. But then Death in Heaven, Hell Bent, and The Doctor Falls ignore everything that the previous part set up.
@@maldon3659 I think spyfall Is one of the Better ones to
Missy was a mistake. A bad idea from the start.
But... it's not a scam. Danny FEELS the cold. You hear a man screaming after being cremated. They go out of their way to tell you that the 3W thing was real.
You can't really use that as concrete evidence. They are in a Matrix and the end goal of this plan is to convince the people to turn their emotions off. They are not above using trickery to convince people that things are bad.
If Danny feels cold would he not feel his broken neck or whatever? He was hit and killed instantly by a car. Would be not feel a cold metal slab on his back? Can you feel stuff within the Matrix thing? What if you get punched in the Matrix? Do you feel that? When the cremated people are cremated what does being ash scattered across a river or whatever feel like?
It makes no sense and honestly I was expecting the twist to be Danny realising it was a scam and acting accordingly. Note those screams and stories could so easily have been fabricated by Missy
@@lovablesnowman The fact that Danny has to be tricked or scammed at all before being sent back to his real body in Cyber-Form is proof that this Danny had free will and agency and is actually himself. The fact that Danny's mind was converted and sent back from the Matrix to his original body is proof that there's a legitimate connection between 3W and the real bodies.
The afterlife Missy created was very much legitimate. The pain might be a trick to force people to convert themselves, but these are undeniably real human minds.
My question is more why does Missy need them to give their consent?
The Cybermen have never needed consent and Missy’s plan isn’t specifically something that requires they’re individuality remain. So why oh why does she not just have them consumed by the NetherSphere after death?
It adds nothing to her scheme
@@ItsButterBean1020 I have absolutely no idea to be honest.
Capaldi really did carry the whole of his tenure on his back, he's one of my favourite actors to have played the Doctor in the modern era and all this despite stories like these.
Hell Bent though was the straw that broke the camels back for me and I didn't bother watching DW again until World Enough and Time because John Simm was coming back as The Master.
It’s a shame because Series 10 was undoubtedly Capaldi’s strongest one looking back. Maybe the strongest of the Moffat era period behind Series 5
@@ThePonderer I'd say S9 was stronger overall. S10 is good (and none of the episodes are super-awful) but it's not quite as tight thematically.
Capaldi’s last two years were terrific.
Ooh potentially mulling over and teasing of master-cember
Would be nice
Yesssss pleeeeeeaaase
Let's see:
1. Terror of the Autons
2. The Mind of Evil
3. The Claws of Axos
4. Colony in Space
5. The Daemons
6. The Sea Devils
7. The Time Monster
8. The Deadly Assassin
9. The Keeper of Traken
10. Logopolis
11. Castrolova
12. Time-Flight
13. The Kings Demons
14. Planet of Fire
15. The Mark of the Rani
16. Trial of a Timelord: The Ultimate Foe
17. Survival
18. Destiny of the Doctor Video Game
19. Doctor Who TV Movie
20. Scream of Shalka
21. Utopia
22. The Sound of the Drums/Last of the Timelords
23. The End of Time
24. Spyfall
25. Series 13 appearance?
Just enough... Barely
@@calumbishop7082 mean the Daleks was just enough for 24 just so happened the master has shown up with both enough to take some stories off
Usually 25 is cameos and all other minor appearances
@@calumbishop7082 More to play with than there was with the cybermen
@@calumbishop7082 dont forget the comic relief special
You probably should have warned me at the start of the video “if you don’t already hate this finale, don’t continue watching” because all your points are spot on and now I don’t think I’ll see this story in the same way again😂
Is it my imagination or is Moffat really bad at writing Ladies in relationships?
Moffat is just terrible at writing women full-stop. I'd say the only female character he did justice was Bill, and that's just because he couldn't make her fit into his weirdly prominent fetishes that plague the show. There's always been a joke floating around that Moffat barely hides his kinks in his writing, but I honestly don't think it's even a joke
Seriously, I'm struggling to think of another major female character he's written that hasn't made at least one cuckold joke or something similar.
See even Bill mostly gets done dirty because while I love her, she’s not that complex beyond fun
My favourite jokes in these episodes are the Malcom Tucker reference and "I'm sorry, you left this behind on one of your previous attempts."
I seem to recall that, at this part of the timeline, Sarah Jane wasn't dead (that happens later). Adric, assuming his body survived dropping from space, had been hanging around for 65 million years, and so unlikely to be able to provide any meaningful biomass. I didn't mind the Brigadier - if anyone in the Doctor's circle was likely to see that he was in a simulation that was designed to break him, it's the Brig. I wasn't keen on the open ended 'did he suicide, or does Earth have a new protector thing - he never seemed to sort to go to the stars, so, if he didn't explode himself, he'd just loiter around smelling like a reliquary. (As a side comment - am I the only one to assume that Cybermen smell of necrotic flesh?)
I'm fairly certain it was confirmed in a comic that the Brig did indeed blow himself up.
I actually didn’t have a problem with it at first
30:10 No Doctor you're not a idiot, But Steven Moffat is, Actually that line of dialogue can sum up the whole 2 Parter in a nutshell.
I'm gonna be honest- I love these two episodes, though I fully understand the criticisms on them.
I like the first one, not so hot about the second.
15:31 no she needed 3W so she could have a base of operations in 21st century to prepare the invasion. It also exists as a big arrow sign to draw the Doctor in. Remember, the whole point of this is to give him an army.
I don't really see how some people experiencing cremation is darker than the general body horror concept of the cybermen or many other things in the show that aren't noted for being too dark.
Or the fact that Slitheen literally scoop out people's remains, probably have a nibble on them, and then wear their skin. I think that's worse than the don't crimate me thing, plus the Slitheen were aimed towards kids.
And when the Mondasians came back they implied they were in constant pain which I found creepy as hell.
@@tinykemper2561 Bruh come the fuck on.
Implying every human in existence cremated is burned alive in pain they can't die from is worse on scale than any Cyber-ization of a few fictional characters.
idk why everyone comes out of the woodwork when a reviewer rightfully criticizes a line that turns the entire Whoniverse into a 40k hellscape.
Totally agree. What the f was Moffatt playing at with that awful, legacy destroying shit with the Brig? Utterly diabolical.
The only positive thing I have to say about This awful story is I saw Gravity Falls for the first time when I changed the channel.
Thanks for breaking the who afterlife nonsense down. It bugged me from the original airing, and it bugged me more how people liked it
I haven't watched the review yet, just wanna say that this is gonna be cathartic for me. I used to like it, then actually thinking about it just ages it so badly, like much of Series 8 and 9. The narrative is just complete nonsense, Michelle Gomez is great but the character is just a bunch of witty lines and dear me, Death in Heaven's structure and pacing and everything... In the Forest of the Night to Witch's Familiar is probably the worst run of episodes of all time time for me, and this COULD be the nadir. Although it's all made up for in two season's time with Capaldi's best story. Too bad we had to wait so long to get it.
I completely agree with everything you said. I honestly believe that run of 6 episodes ITFOTN to TWF is probably the reason why the viewing figures went down during Capaldi’s era (along with kill the moon, sleep no more & hell bent).
@@BH-98 Kill the Moon is terrible but every Doctor has a wonky story in their first season so it's understandable. But when the finale, special, then premier are all just as bad, we have a problem. And in my opinion Series 9 isn't that much better than Series 8. The Whithouse two parter is a stroke of genius and the Zygon two parter is flawed but admirable but everything else barring Heaven Sent is just a mess.
@@benw4409 I included kill the moon in there as it was the start of the whole “doctor who is too political” complaint that people have. It & in the forest of the night were bad episodes that portrayed it political message in a poor & unsubtle way. The show has always been political but when it’s done badly there & later episodes such as orphan 55 follow its example, it completely warped the fandom into becoming incredibly toxic.
@@benw4409 Having a bad story is one thing; you can write off a boring or stupid adventure. But then when you say the moon is an egg; that's there in every story before and after now and spreads its stupidity about, which is Moffat's worst habit. I'd rather have an episode with the Doctor stuck in a broom closet, which you can just forget about it later.
I think the whole thing with Clara saying she’s owed is her just grieving and not thinking clearly
People say all kinds of odd things in moments of grief, and it's not unusual to be somewhat self-centred under such circumstances, either: "I'm owed" is basically on the same spectrum as "Why me?"
@@ftumschk 100% agree
Not liking it is one thing, but ignoring stuff just to be able to say “for some reason” isn’t fair. I counted at least 6 times you said something wasn’t explained when it was explained basically 5 seconds before it happened
And you didn't list any of them.
@@dirrdevillol
Dark Water definitely has echoes of the comic story the Flood too it
Oh god...was Dracula THIS YEAR?!
I know near the end of Dark Water it was a bit of a homage to The Invasion 1968, But I don't think it works well for me anyway.
Is basic just fan service rather that something clever like other references to the classic era, really shame and waste reference to The Invasion.
@@dustin_4501 It's almost as bad as Asylum of the Daleks.
@@SegaNintendoGuy64 Yippie is that bad also that episode doesn't have the High Council Dalek and that Daleks with flame-throwers like in The Daleks' Master Plan and Part Of Ways, what fail Dalek fan service.
Just a few more points worth discussing.
16:39 Why exactly is a show from this year being used as a critique of this 6 year old episode? Also it's fine to reuse concepts, it's what you do with them that counts. The 'digital afterlife' in Silence in the Library is used in a completely different context to the one in this story.
16:50 I dont think these scenes are really comparable. Sure the basic joke structure is the same, but the intent and context are completely different. Ten is excited due to unexpectedly meeting (and snogging) a historical figure he admires. Clara is clearly teaching a class, with a small nod to both her time travel and sexuality. I realize spotting the formula of their delivery could be irritating, but you yourself call Kate a great character. Why exactly does this small comedic moment ruin that?
18:30 I dont think the Doctor's relationship with the Brigadier is quite as rosy as you paint it. In Inferno the Doctor clearly states. "Miss Shaw may have the misfortunate to work for you, Brigadier. I am a free agent." I agree with you more on the Salute line.
32:29 They did, And they have.. I HATE YOU EPISODE!
This might get a bit lengthy but there’s a lot to say.
Clara says she feels owed because like anyone who has lost someone she feels she doesn’t deserve this (and her status as a companion has opened up more possibilities). It’s not that convoluted. I also don’t think Clara’s behaviour in the beginning necessarily makes her key ploy any less effective as a)it’s an aspect of a character that’s been pushed to an extreme so there’s a logical thorough line b)you can tell by Jenna’s acting that her feelings on this situation are much more furious Yes, the afterlife exists in this scenario but that’s not the con in question.
The con is that you can feel the pain to your body while you are in the afterlife and that has not been disproven. This is ultimately because the ultimate end goal of this scenario is to convince you to turn off your emotions so they are doing everything they can to convince people to do so (presumably because doing so willingly will net better results). Any supposed evidence of bodies being connected to what is going on to their bodies is incredibly suspect given that they are in the MATRIX which can simulate scenarios, but if the person was aware they were in there they could take some level of control (see Deadly Assassin). Also, I’m pretty certain that convincing the super rich about your theory is beneficial in that a)you get to spread the concept around to further encourage the manipulation b)you have additional resources and income that can help in various ways (I mean the exact logistics of when and how this plan all came together is kind of vague so we don’t really know how long the various facets of this plan took to come together).
Moffat’s digital afterlife-s don’t contradict Missy’s line about Cybermen and cyberspace since it’s the CYBER part of that line that’s important, as in connecting Cybermen and Cyberspace together, and not the afterlife part, which is kind of new as far as the show at least. And if Moffat re-uses the cremation idea in Dracula in 2020 that doesn’t really affect the freshness of the idea in 2014 does it?
I don’t think we can really lay the idea of Doctor Who re-using the same handful of characters at Moffat’s feet when that’s been kind of a thing before and after him.
I think there’s some ambiguity as to whether the second rain fall is actually designed to kill and convert the living. It could very well be that they are just gonna bring up more Cybermen that will take humanity down for further conversion. If that’s the case than it taking multiple rains to conquer everyone isn’t unreasonable. Also, I’m pretty sure Danny wasn’t completely affected by the conditioning because he didn’t press the button to turn his emotions off.
I feel like the SQUEE bit is more Moffat being meta with having characters watch the Doctor do stuff and be impressed than it is about his own cleverness specifically but I guess that’s neither here nor there.
Checking the transcript again, Danny’s line about “the shame” being on the Doctor is clearly in response to his whole bit about how he can feel the hurt he inflicts which as far as he’s concerned makes him kind of a bastard as he allows people to suffer despite him knowing on some level it’s bad, this tying back to some stuff in The Caretaker and maybe a bit of Kill the Moon. And given this whole bit follow the Doc not wanting Danny to turn off his emotions he’s clearly annoyed because he wants to be relieved of this pain and this man is telling him to not even tho he’s suffering and knows that. And the Doctor obviously doesn’t want to turn the inhibitor on because not having emotions SUCKS.
The way I view it if Clara is so insistent on turning on the inhibitor there’s not much the Doctor is gonna be able to do to change her mind (she’s already shown her determination earlier). And turning off his emotions is not the same thing as killing Danny. As far as she’s concerned she’s showing him some mercy, whereas killing Missy would actually be killing her.
I get the Master-isms are a little subjective but I don’t see why Missy’s zany actions don’t align with the Master but Simm or Dawan’s do? And if regeneration is supposed to change the approach a person takes why wouldn’t her schtique qualify under that umbrella? Also, I guess I’ll just mention that retroactively we can assume that Missy bringing The Doctor and Clara together was at least partially motivated by the Hybrid business (which would tie into her goals of wanting to bring the Doctor to her level).
I feel like there’s a difference between being President which may inadvertently have access to an army and being in direct control of a legion of cyborgs that could have incredible control of the universe (and I’m pretty sure that the Doctor didn’t WANT to be President, he was just kind of given the title for the immediate situation). There’s a difference between being President of Earth and being able to control things on a galactic scale. It’s that kind of temptation that Missy wants to toy the Doctor with. And I don’t think an army not being super helpful in his S8 adventures is really relevant. Those were just regular Doctor helping out things. We’re talking the possibility for galaxy-spanning change here (and we know that the Doctor doesn’t usually interfere with every thing). Something that the Doctor doesn’t NEED but might WANT (at least in Missy’s view) if the temptation was put in front of him and he was pushed into it.
I think the Brigadier would have been fine becoming a Cyberman if it meant he could save his daughter and help his buddy the Doctor out. The fact he was able to resist the conditioning I’d say speaks pretty positively of his character. Why is the Santa ending whiplash bad here but it’s not a problem when RTD did it? At least there’s a bit of credits to separate the scenes.
This a great comment. Mr Tardis is usually pretty savvy about his media and critical analysis so I don’t understand why he drops the ball so hard when it comes to Moffat episodes. Like your comment shows, he’s basically willfully misinterpreting or nitpicking the story. And you don’t even get to why the episode is actually good, just refuting all the ridiculous claims he makes.
"The BBC did not actually know what they were transmitting." That's been the status quo since 1963 I'm afraid.
Steven Moffat: Doctor Who is for kids
Also Steven Moffat: *Implies SCP-2718 is canon to the Whoniverse*
What’s that?
@@rogersstinson4019 It's basically, when you die, you keep feeling pain even though you don't exist anymore.
Came back to this and I feel like there's some bad wroting but I also feel MR TARDIS is a bit too harsh on the story. It's a finale that works if you have watched all the episodes in the series up to this point. I think Missy lied about her army being every single human that ever died, but rather she specifically targetted people that the Doctor or Clara had met. The Doctor calls out the afterlife thing as a lie and I agree. I believe that Missy wanted to manipulate all of the Doctor's former associates into willingly becoming cybermen. So she tricked them into thinking that they can feel the painnof being on fire 24/7, hemce the huge emphasis on no cremation. She wanted to torture the people physically and mentally into giving up their emotions and free thought, basically turning them into cybermen because the master is a sadistic motherfucker. Danny never pressed the button so qhile he physically got turned into a cybermen, he still could feel emotions and pain.
I wont say the episode is perfect. For instance, I do think the Doctor letting Clara kill Danny was out of character. I just wanted to clarify what I thought was Moffat's intention with the cybermen army.
I think many people here fail to understand a distinction of something being shocking/dark with good narrative choice. Something as broad as all of humanity being forced to suffer after death is pretty nihilistic and sadistic. It's one thing to have a character die, it's another to have them ruthlessly tortured in some essentially magical way.
I agree that it's callous as a writer to rewrite all of Doctor Who as having the entire human race across all time be tortured in the afterlife. Essentially, Hell is suffering in the afterlife, so Steven Moffat essentially argues every human being goes to Hell in the canon. It's also stupid pragmatically. Missy abducts all of human kind across all time and space. That's a huge feat for even a group of Time Lords. Unless the Doctor's plans changed what Missy did, and we don't purge this terrible story from our headcanon, Missy's plans are still in action even after the events of the story as they do occur in the future of humanity as well. That's why your story's scope should never be all-encompassing to begin with.
Moffat doesn't respect the work of other writers or characters.
My thinking for the cremation thing is so there's more bodies to convert. Except this is basically headcannon despite being logical its never used in that way. It's not used as hey I need a reason to ensure that there's as many bodies as possible" it's written as "Hey lets give the viewers some existential dred horror"
Before: I've been waiting for this review for 6 years!
After: & it was worth the wait! Though I now feel depressed as I remember how crap this finale was. Definitely the low point of this marathon.
the story does not make a lot of sense at all and is pretty poorly written.
But I fucking love it anyway. It's got such cool themeing and visuals. I love the afterlife, I love the cybermen rising from the graves, I love Missy. I will admit this finale sucks. but I can't hate it.
Mr Tardis, I’ve enjoyed your Cybercember videos thus far. I may have had some disagreements with you here or there but overall they were very level headed looks at all the stories. However, whenever you start talking about a Moffat episode, you seem to lose all semblance of being coherent and analytical and instead hyper focus on the reasons why you hate Moffat himself. And in this story in particular, you either seem to be willfully misinterpreting it (which you say is a false claim to make against you) or otherwise exhibiting horrible media and critical analysis skills (which is awfully uncharacteristic of you). No, Moffat writing characters who are surprised at a mild twist in the story isn’t him “talking about how clever he is.” That is such a preposterous claim with zero substance to back it up other than the image of Moffat you’ve created in your own head. You seem to purposefully ignore or misunderstand the entire context of this episode within this series as well as the themes and character arcs of the series itself (just because the Doctor doesn’t bring up the exact phrase of “being a good man” except for the beginning and end of the series doesn’t mean there’s no development! there’s more to series 8 than that question!) and resort to nitpicking that is way more harsh than any of your other videos this month. Your claims that Clara acts out of character lead me to believe you do not understand her character in Series 8 in the first place. Her character is fundamentally different in Series 8 than in Series 7, yet you are concerned about her mother who was mentioned in one episode in Series 7 and whose impact on Clara was mostly resolved in that same episode. You could just as easily make a video this nasty and harsh about any of the stories you’ve covered so far and make completely baseless claims and attack the writer (Closing Time and Tomb of the Cybermen seem like good candidates) yet you decide this is the one you have to hate because it’s written my Moffat.
I see as many absurd and misguided claims in this video as you claim to be in this story. I could genuinely comb through the whole video and comment my objections to each point you make but I feel I would just be wasting my time. I sincerely hope you one day move past your Moffat hate, Mr Tardis, because I’ve never not enjoyed your non-Moffat related videos. I’m afraid I’m coming off very hard and I don’t mean to insult you personally but your Moffat related videos are so far removed from the quality of your other videos that it genuinely bewilders me.
I think there's a difference between the Doctor refusing to turn on Danny's emotional inhibitor (and thereby going against his principles by participating in the conversion process which he detests- an action which the episode depicts as questionable via Danny's comments) and offering to kill the Master, a villainous character.
I agree with about 90% of your rants, in fact I actually forgot how much of this story I disliked, I must have blacked stuff out. But...I am gonna be one of those to defend (partly) the 3 words thing. I don't think they were saying the 'afterlife' existence was a con, but the idea that the consciousness feels what happens to the body after death, the idea that if a body is burned they will feel it after. Someone else pointed out that, if this were true, why wasn't Danny's neck still broken or ribs hurting or whatever injuries he suffered from the car crash? Same for the kid, he didn't seem to be in any pain. The effect of feeling 'cold' could just be something installed from Missy's matrix tech and likewise the voice is also faked. If Missy's device is destroyed then presumably the whole afterlife goes with it and people are just...gone, nothing, as they would be. But we're never given any closure on that because, as you say, stupid story is stupid and yeah I really can't defend anything else.
Great points. I agree.
Dark Water is so bad but my god, Death in Heaven is one of the worst pieces of, not only DW I've ever watched, but TV in general that I've ever watched, it is just littered with terrible ideas and moments, absolute hall of shame episode
“Don’t cremate me” admittedly sounds like an interesting idea… For Torchwood.
Maybe, possibly Big Finish at a stretch
"an idea that no-one throughout human history has thought of" except for the several real cultures that do believe that humans continue to feel their bodies after death.
Could you give me some examples? Genuinely curious...
One of the biggest crimes is Matt smith never got to verse the master on screen
It's hardly fair to criticise this story for having beats that Moffat would reuse afterwards in Dracula and Twice Upon A Time.
To be fair Dracula was a psychological horror show aimed watched by older audiences. The cremation in Dracula was actually kinda fucked up but something expected if you'd been watching the show, unlike this scene which was from an science-fantasy action family show from an era defined by kid-friendly fairy-tales.
Mastercember
1. Terror of the Autons
2. The Mind of Evil
3. The Claws of Axos
4. Colony in Space
5. The Daemons
6. The Sea Devils
7. The Time Monster
8. Frontier in Space
9. The Deadley Assassian
10. The Keeper of Traken
11. Logopolis
12. Castrovalva
13. Time-Flight
14. The Kings Demons
15. The Five Doctors
16. Planet of Fire
17. The Mark of the Rani
18. The Ultimate Foe
19. Survival
20. The Movie
21. Utopia/Sounds of Drum/Last of the Timelords
22. The End of Time
23. Dark Water/Death in Heaven
24. The Magicans Aprentice/The Witch’s Familar
25. World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls
26. Spyfall
27. Acension of the Cybermen/The Timeless Children
There's only one problem with the list, He already did The 5 Doctors, Dark Water/Death in Heaven, The Magician Apprentice/ The Witches Familiar, World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls, And Acension of the Cybermen/The Timeless Children during Dalekcember and Cybercember.
Yeah, I think you summed up my thoughts in this finale. It's not my least favorite Doctor Who story... but I'm sure it's in my bottom five. It's definitely the low point of Steven Moffat's career on the show, for me. I'm not hard to please. I can get something out of watching Asylum of the Daleks or Hell Bent. Dark Water/Death in Heaven, though, is a dreary, depressing, arrogant, pretentious mess of a story from a writer that has done better.
The Moffat era cyber stories all nick an element from the expanded universe don’t they?
Closing time (an attempt to weaponise cyber mats against the cybermen like in spare parts)
Nightmare in silver (chess playing cyberman at a fair)
Dark water/death in heaven (cybermen weaponising rain like in the flood)
Wet/doctor falls (origin of the cybermen- spare parts)
22:18 Oooooooor, Danny’s response isn’t referring to this story but the very long arc they go through together throughout S8 in which Danny clearly doesn’t like The Doctor or the pain he creates in his wake. Hence ‘shame on you, Doctor’.
I agree that it's a bit all over the place but I still really like it for the most part.
I've loved these reviews. I haven't agreed with everything, which isn't a criticism: I appreciate difference of opinion. But this review is absolutely spot on, I agree absolutely. Such a problematic story and you've put into words so many of the problems brilliantly. Bravo.
also when they’re in the grave yards why isn’t all the grass ripped up?
Oh watching this reminds me of the rage and hate I had for this story and for Clara. You brought up a lot of points I agree with, one thing I felt was that how Clara has a double standard. She would condem trillions across the universe for the sake of her boyfriend. But at the end she has the gall to blame all the masters victims on the Doctor. When A) the Doctor has tried to destroy the master before and it hasn't worked. and b) by that logic you would be the one responsible for all those the Doctor wouldn't be able to help. So which is it you cow? You can't have it both ways.
What a god-awful finale. So much of the Moffat era left a bad taste in my mouth when compared to Series 1+3 (my personal peak seasons). Seeing the genuine humanity of the 13th Doctor is such a breath of fresh air.
now they'll see the real you
@@rennythespaceguy7285 Great reply lol
@@zoewells3160 Forgot I even said this, I genuinely have no idea how anyone could think that about the Moffat Doctors
the brigadiers appearance as Cyber-Brig really left a bad taste in my mouth
My favourite characters include Jamie McCrimmon, Jago and Litefoot as well as the Brig. All characters that would have passed on by that time, so this whole scenario just felt really unpleasant.
The ‘afterlife’ was just people’s consciousness being uploaded into a Time Lord device called the Nethersphere. Based on how it’s described in the episode it’s sort of like a portable, mini version of the Matrix.
There was no REAL afterlife in the episode. Just people’s minds being uploaded into a machine.
The reason there were two sets of ‘rain’ to upgrade people into Cybermen was to blackmail the Doctor into accepting the Cybermen army.
The first rain was to redownload people’s consciousness back into their Cyber-converted bodies with their emotions being deleted in the Sphere, which was due to the scam the Master and 3W created to make people think that they were still connected to their bodies. Now there’s an army of Cybermen from the dead. This is the army Missy wanted the Doctor to take. If he didn’t then she would activate another rainfall that would upgrade the living. So either the Doctor takes the Cyberarmy upgraded from the dead or he refuses and Missy activates the second rain. Either way she wins.
Now I will agree it is strange she seemed annoyed that the Doctor was escaping falling to his death. Of course maybe like you she was annoyed by her employee guy (who’s name I literally do not remember).
As for the whole am I good man thing. That was shown throughout the series, albeit in more subtle ways than previous series arcs.
Throughout the series this incarnation of the Doctor was shown to be more cold, withdrawn, and on occasion downright callus. The first episode implies he pushed the Half-face Man to his death, in the second episode he falsely reassures a soldier that he’s going to be alright before he’s brutally killed, the Doctor then seemingly has no issue with his death, in that awful moon episode he abandons Clara in the future to determine whether or not to destroy the moon which could risk the Earth. There are more examples of this incarnation of the Doctor doing morally questionable things that all build to his “I am an idiot” speech.
Wouldn’t that mean Amy and Rory were converted into a cyberman
Yes
Yes, and everyone else who ever died.
@ How?
@@zoewells3160 The episode explained how. Pay attention next time.
@ And yet, you still can't answer the question.
It's funny... because this is my favorite Modern Who Story 😅
Oh same it’s one of my absolute favourites
You know what I really hate about this story? it's not necessarily the conclusion of the Doctor's season long arc, I don't mind that. And while it's irritating to have the Cybermen be reduced to The Master's minions, that reveal is still great and I do quite like this version of the character. Honestly I don't hate this as much as you do. Even so, There are many things that don't work, but the worst one? Clara pretending to be The Doctor. On paper it's whatever, a way to bluff for her life, but in execution it's the last line before the intro and they even put Jenna Coleman's name up front like they're trying to convince us this is really some big twist. Not only would it not work cause we KNOW Clara and her role by this point, that was the entire mystery last time, but it's utterly meaningless. It's a big "shock" thing with no payoff. And I feel like that sums up Moffat's worst traits as a writer, that scene right there. It's "cool thing" or "shocking thing" that DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING.
On the dark water controversy the concept of consciousness after death (to me at least) is a really interesting if messed up concept (I'm rather into that kind of psychological horror and mind fuckery) but I will whole heartedly agree for Doctor who... That shit is indeed inappropriate if that concept is to be explored a more adult show or separate piece of media that caters to adults should be exploring it. Not a pre watershed family programme
This is the most reasonable take here by far. It's not that the idea is bad in itself, but this is the worst media vehicle for such an idea. I'd be totally cool for some A24 horror film using this concept.
Yeah this finale is really rough. It seriously sucks that Capaldi only has one good finale, that being said it's probably one of the shows best finales. It'll be a nice breath of fresh air after this, Definitelyyyyyy looking forward to it. The only good thing I can actually say about this finale is that it shows up in LEGO Dimensions, and that's a fun game. That's just about it
After 40 minutes of this review... I still don't get your issues with this story. Why wouldn't The Master think that The Doctor needs an army? He's fundamentally unable to understand The Doctor's morality. What's the big problem with converting dead? Cybermen were used in far bleaker ways. And yes, every single companion became a Cyberman and most likely they all did their best to help save the world as well as end this afterlife nightmare, just like The Brig did! How is them being heroes a problem?
@The Reverse I never said he is an awful reviewer, nor I find his opinion invalid. I do however not understand the points he raises here and why would these things in particular bother anyone so much. But it happens, everyone is different and we may completely fail to understand each other sometimes.
Regarding the companions, a fair few of those people died irl, so the idea of their corpses being used as puppets is a bit disrespectful. Some people just have a more sensitive relationship with death, so it’s understandable that this concept, in the context of a family show, might be too ghoulish for a lot of viewers. As this guy noted, it’s a much more Torchwood idea. I personally love this two-parter, but as a kid it really upset me, and not in a fun way like Blink.
Moffat would later reuse the ‘feel cremation’ idea I’m Dracula. And it is executed much better in that.
Also, the cyber army could have helped in the care-taker
Hated Clara worst companion
Always have a weird time rewatching stories like this.The production, directing and acting firing on all cylinders...whilst the writing is just confusing and lackluster. Especially when there's a few cherry moments giving a glimpse of what could have been. Never know how I feel when it's all wrapped up. Just a resounding 'Oh?'
I'm kinda of ok with Dark Water but yeah, Death in Heaven drops the ball massively. Just nope.
I don't think the shut up scene in the opening is an example of Clara being psychotic at all. She's telling Danny to shut up because she's trying to create a space where she can be honest with him about all the times she's lied to him over the course of the show. Her statement of "I love you" isn't at all the end goal of her conversation, it's just laying the groundwork for "I've been dishonest with you for months."
The only reason she doesn't outright start off with her confession is that she's afraid that he'll be angry when he discovers she's been lying to him habitually about her adventures with the doctor(This is shown and set up throughout season 8, so her lying about her adventures to make Danny feel safe isn't out of nowhere). And I think that's an entirely normal reaction and approach to the conversation given how she was characterized throughout season.
Did anyone ever go on to explain- in a book or whatever- what happens to that kid?
After he's "sent back", however many years after his death... to another country, where he probably doesn't know the language.
I mean, I would hope Clara would call up UNIT and do her best to explain the situation.
I wonder if the original plan was for Clara to leave the show to care for the child herself- coming back full circle, reconnecting with the kids from her debut series...
Adric might not have become a cybermen because he died in a time period before humans had an after life, and he's not actually human.
I think the 'con' is more regarding that the nethersphere is a construct of Missy's which is empty by the end of the episode, it isn't a natural state of the universe. Plus I don't know if it's said that everyone goes to the Nethersphere? Missy would have trillions of cybermen if that was the case.
I can not describe at how much I despise this two-parter. This was the one to make me Hate Steven Moffat's writing and his view of Doctor Who as a whole. I know he has written SOME good stories here and there, but I'm sorry this story along with many others that are well known for being infamously crap. this is horrendous. The Scene with Clara blackmailing the doctor feels noneffective to me because even if clara did throw all the TARDIS keys in reality, all the Doctor would have to do is snap his fingers to open the TARDIS doors! Moffat made that plot device and he doesn't acknowledges his own past ideas!
And while I can Strongly agree with Mr TARDIS with the Whole "Don't Cermet me" being really bad taste and a Horrible move both Moffat and the BBC for not giving a single fuck about it, and also could possible scar kids watching it as well as effect those who's relatives have been cremated. But the scene that absolutely and truthfully pissed me off (yes the Cyber-brig also pissed me off as well if your wondering) was the battered Cyberman helmet from The Invasion. Now I LOVE References to Classic Who as the next guy but the execution to that scene felt so soulless and bland, with Kate Stewart while doing a no-nonsense "I don't give a fuck" attitude to the cybermen while literally tossing the classic head on the floor like it served nothing as just there to make the fans happy. I know she uses it to let the cybermen know that UNIT have defeated the Cybermen before, its the execution and deliver to it felt quick, uninteresting and kinda soulless. Like there no love to it like the show is discarding the classic years because they need to move on with the plot that moffat wrote because moffats writing is so much better than any symbolic any happy memory to the classic years that this show was build up upon, The Best way to explain why this scene feels like the BBC and moffat are literally throwing bone or chew toy to the whovian's faces is because a previous Fantastic episode did this a LOT Better!
Enter Robert Shearman's Dalek from Series 1. Immediately as the episode starts in the alien Museum we are greeted with not just a slitheen's stuffed arm but also opposite to it is a Cyberman helmet from Revenge on display. The 9th Doctor sees this and feels Reminiscent & Nostalgic for it, he takes his time with it! and that's why this scene is more affective, IT TAKES IT'S TIME. It's not too long or too short like in Death in Heaven. It admires the past, the Doctor reaction is how a lot of old fans from the Classic seasons felt when see it. the slitheen arm display put opposite to the Classic Cyberhelmet is symbolic cause it bridges the two together and filling the gap, bring Classic and New Who Together.
If Death in Heaven had one of the New Cybermen pick up the Old Helmet and having a moment with it like it's looking at old friend or comrade. then at least there would be something to bring the two together. But No Kate just yeets it like a binbag and the crap plot continues. Fuck this Two Parter, I Hate Moffat, I hate his written and I hate Clara.
Why would a Cybermen feel melancholy over the severed head of an old model? Remember that they have no emotions. Nor would Kate feel anything for the empty head of a monster.
One more comment I swear,
As a big reminder Rachel Talalay the female director of this and the next two episodes he'll talk about tomorrow also directed Freddy's Dead The Final Nightmare.. I am not even kidding, And I rather watch that crappy film than that crappy two parter.
Wait which story do you mean. The series 8 finale or series 10 finale?
And as usual with dark doctor who concepts, the SCP Foundation copy is somehow even darker lmao
Why do the cybermen actually need the corpses? Like, what different will a few bones make to the function of this cybernetic suit?
Why in quite a few NuWho stories they come across as more robot than cyborg tbh