I went to a Evangelical Protestant liberal arts college and every freshman was required to attend a church outside one's own tradition. I opted to visit an Orthodox church. After the liturgy, we (i went in a group of students) were surprised to be offered some of blessed bread.
Hi Bojan. I'm an Old Catholic discerning ordination as a priest. While I was raised Roman Catholic, as an Old Catholic I have a lot in common with my Orthodox sisters and brothers in Christ, especially Eucharistic theology and the role and authority of bishops. Question for you: I understand the significance of cutting out little chunks of the prosphoron to commemorate the saints, the Virgin Mary, etc., but what is done with them after the liturgy? Are they eaten by the clergy or the laity (e.g. as antidoron)? Not knowing what becomes of those chunks made me think at first glance that the practice could be wasteful. By the way, J's in Spanish are pronounced exactly like the Cyrillic or Greek letter X: a heavy, guttural sound in the back of the throat. Since you're Serbian, you probably know what I mean! ;) May God bless you always! I'd appreciate your prayers, and I'll certainly pray for you.
Bojan, what do you think of the Taizé Community? Do you believe this is a good approach towards unity with Protestants? Do you think similar efforts should be undertaken between Catholics and Orthodox?
Bojan, I wanted to ask you this for months and it's not my only inquiry, but I am glad you have this secondary channel because I was consumed by anxiety: In Genesis 9:27, Noah says "God will expand Japheth, and he will dwell in the tents of Shem and Canaan will be his servant." I have reviewed everything from the Septuagint to Latin Vulgate and Hebrew translations of this passage, I even looked up commentary from priests and even rabbis. In light of my research I need to ask you quite bluntly about it: Was Noah speaking a prophecy basically how white people would colonize and conquer the world while adopting and nurturing Christianity and the Church in the heart of Europe, and that blacks....have not had the most fortunate history in all their history? I know Japhethites also traditionally include Persians and North Indians (so roughly Indo-Europeans), but these were great empire builders as well. I guess this all ties into as well what precisely the sons of Noah represent racially (where did Asians like the Japanese come from?), but it is one of the most fascinating passages in all if scripture for me. Also side question: Do the fathers or any other orthodox source state where Germanics/Nordics come from? I have read they come from Gomer/Gog/Magog/Ashkenaz... I don't know it's confusing. I wanted to word this post a lot better I'm sorry ;_; please just clarify Genesis 9:27 in general I guess because it seems very accurate the way it is "obviously" saying things to pit it bluntly. Of course I am not implying or endorsing any racial prejudice or anything like that, I know that is controversial about it but we can not deny that for example Europeans did a lot in history all over the world. Please understand I'm asking this innocently and scholarly. Thank you!
The prophecy of Noah to Japheth in [Genesis 9:27] applies generally to all gentiles who were firstly "expanded" all around the world and then, through the preaching of the Gospel, they "dwelled in the tents of Shem", i.e. they took part in God's blessings to Abraham and his descendants in faith. As for us Greeks specifically the prophecy of Noah to Japeth has an additional interest since the name 'Japheth' did survived in Greek Mythology as 'Iapetus'!!! According to Mythology Iapetus and his sons were sometimes regarded as mankind's ancestors! As for the phrase "dwelled in the tents of Shem", many see this prophecy also fulfilled since most Holy places in Palestine are still under the supervision of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem: www.vimaorthodoxias.gr/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/ierosolima_693983008.jpg
@Orthoglobus Ah yes interesting! I believe God intended the Greeks to fortify the faith with their genius thinking and culture, that is why he even let Alexander the Great conquer so much so the culture would spread to the Holy Land in preparation for Christ. Thank you
Thanks Bojan! You answered almost all of it. I suppose the treatment of the Eucharist in the tabernacle is of adoration, isn't it? I've heard that Anglicans (please if there's an Anglican, correct me if I'm wrong) only believe in the presence of the Lord in the species during the Liturgy. Would a Roman Catholic be admitted to communicate in an Eastern Orthodox Liturgy? I've been told as a child that if I ever go to a city with no Catholic churches, that if there's an Orthodox church, I could have communion there, because the excommunications between Western Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxies had been lifted in 1965 or so. Is it that way?
I'm a member of the Ordinariate. Most of its members are former Anglicans. I am not, but I've been part of this for about six years, and have gained some familiarity with their beliefs. There are no set beliefs. Officially, the Book of Common Prayer dictates the creed of the Anglican Communion. Article 28 defines the Prayer Book answer. See here: www.eskimo.com/~lhowell/bcp1662/articles/articles.html#28 However, there are, very generally and roughly, three different factions within Anglicanism that interpret the prayer book in their own way. There are, again, just as general categories: the "high church" (which tend to interpret things the way Roman Catholics do), the "low church" (which interpret things often the way Baptists and evangelical Protestants do), and the "broad church" (which embraces Liberal Christian theology). So, the high church tend to believe in transubstantiation, or something very close to it. The low church tend to believe in spiritual presence, or that Jesus is only present if you believe, or in consubstantiation. And the liberal church probably doesn't care and uses it as a symbol of oppression of the poor, or somesuchthing. But an Anglican may believe whatever he wants without criticism from his bishops. Or at least, not from all his bishops. This chaotic relativism is called "latitudinarianism".
@@TheRealRealOK so, our sacraments aren't valid for you? None of them? Even baptism? How strange! I wouldn't dare say that of any Christian denominations
@@fojedaquintana what do you mean by that? I don't know why this isn't an universal rule, because, I've heard many stories, mostly in the West, that people who were baptized in Protestant or Catholic Churches don't need to be baptized again in order to join the Orthodox Church, just chrismated (sorry, Idk the right spelling for that word), but here, in Montenegro, I've heard the opposite, especially in Ostrog monastery, that even Catholics (our closest relatives in terms of theology) need to be baptized if they want to become Orthodox. There's even this story, of a girl who's been baptized in Croatia, by a Catholic priest, but had mental issues, was completely crazy, screaming, shaking and stuff; her mother took her to different doctors and hospitals and such, and in the end decided to take her to Ostrog. There, a priest asked her if she was baptized, and her mother replied, yes, by a Catholic priest, then he insisted she needed to be baptized there, in Ostrog, and her mother consented, and as soon as she was baptized, she calmed down instantly and asked her mom "where am I?". So, Idk... I can't say for sure, because I wasn't a witness to this event, but several people swore that they've seen this, and similar miracles happen in Ostrog. I would say that this is fine, in my opinion, because there needs to be One Baptism, One Communion etc, and if there is THE Church, that our Church claims to be, then all other curches are in error in the best case, or in heresy, in the worst. So, I guess I can get behind this, I see no problem with it. And yes, I know that as well, that Catholics allow their believers to go to the Orthodox Church in the absence of a Catholic one, and take their communion, but vice versa no, we are not allowed to take Catholic communion, or to pray with Catholics, that is, by their prayers. edit: Oh, and there is a specific, concrete reason why, as well, because our communion breads are different, we don't use unleavened bread like Catholic, but regular, leavened bread. It's just a completely different take on the sacrament of the communion, I guess.
@@BanterWithBojan Correct. The Antiochians permit it, the Russians do not (ditto for almost all the differences between the two Western Rite vicariates).
One Prosphora is used in parish practice for practical reasons but the rubrics alows for the use on one, three, five or even seven prosphora. The use of several loves can be used for large congregations or if more than one lamb is needed. The Russian tradition has many small prosphora used for commemorations and five smaller prosphora which have differing images rather than the multi-purpose Greek stamps. Within the Antiochian tradition (mostly in Syria and Lebanon) people bring stacks of bread from which one loaf is taken by the priest to commemorate the lists provided and the others returned to the people who offered them. The local traditions vary, and the history of the Proscomedia (that is the preparation service) is long complex and involves deacons!
@@BanterWithBojan Deacons got everywhere in the Early Church and were way more important than Presbyters, there is a whole spiciest area of Church history just looking at what deacons got up too.
Question and Answer #340 from the Longer Catechism of St Philaret of Moscow: How are we to understand the word, ‘transubstantiation’? In the confession of faith of the Eastern Patriarchs, it is said that the word transubstantiation is not to be taken to define the manner in which the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of the Lord, for this none can understand but God; but only thus much is signified: that the bread truly, really, and substantially becomes the very true Body of the Lord, and the wine the very Blood of the Lord. In like manner, St John Damascene, treating of the holy and immaculate Mysteries of the Lord, writes thus: “It is truly that Body, united with Godhead, which had its origin from the Holy Virgin, not as though that Body which ascended came down from heaven, but because the bread and wine themselves are changed into the Body and Blood of God; in like manner as, by the same Holy Spirit, the Lord formed flesh to Himself, and in Himself, from the Mother of God; nor know I aught more than this: that the Word of God is true, powerful, and almighty, but its manner of operation unsearchable (St. John Damascene, Exposition, Book IV, Ch. 13, Section 7).
Roman practice is to "fast" for an hour before Mass begins. I believe the older practice is to fast on Sundays until you go to mass, no matter when you go. I find it a very honorable tradition. I think the Copts fast 9 hours, which they say stands for the time Jesus was imprisioned before he walked the Via Dolorosa.
One Church that claims apostolicity withheld the blood of Christ from the laity for 1,000 years. The other withholds the chalice, contrary to Christ's clear command and promise, preferring, rather, to give both elements on a spoon.
@@BanterWithBojan There is no reason to frame it this way if one simply observes the dominical institution, as opposed to innovating as Rome and the East have done.
If anyone wants to see how Prosphora is made (the Bread) here is a video with English translation. No, we can’t buy the bread, we bake it! ruclips.net/video/wWgslACJ_4A/видео.html
![Orthodox Understanding of Eucharist [Sacraments]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/V2X0L3IHnt4/mqdefault.jpg)
I love your little laugh while explaining why daily liturgy would be problematic. Love the videos, keep it up.
Communion is an amazing thing, I don't receive it every Sunday but I wish I did.
I went to a Evangelical Protestant liberal arts college and every freshman was required to attend a church outside one's own tradition. I opted to visit an Orthodox church. After the liturgy, we (i went in a group of students) were surprised to be offered some of blessed bread.
@ChristianHistory really?
@ChristianHistory I don't think thats why it was started, but i could possibly be a factor
that bread was indeed blessed but it is specifically blessed and set aside for non-members or catechumens to partake, it is not Communion Bread
If I'm not mistaken, is the prosphora a kind of sourdough bread? I've seen videos online of people preparing the bread with a kind of starter.
Hi Bojan. I'm an Old Catholic discerning ordination as a priest. While I was raised Roman Catholic, as an Old Catholic I have a lot in common with my Orthodox sisters and brothers in Christ, especially Eucharistic theology and the role and authority of bishops.
Question for you: I understand the significance of cutting out little chunks of the prosphoron to commemorate the saints, the Virgin Mary, etc., but what is done with them after the liturgy? Are they eaten by the clergy or the laity (e.g. as antidoron)? Not knowing what becomes of those chunks made me think at first glance that the practice could be wasteful.
By the way, J's in Spanish are pronounced exactly like the Cyrillic or Greek letter X: a heavy, guttural sound in the back of the throat. Since you're Serbian, you probably know what I mean! ;)
May God bless you always! I'd appreciate your prayers, and I'll certainly pray for you.
Please take care of your cough.
Your explanation was wonderful thank you; as a convert, since 2006, I learnt new things
Don't you need to confess before you receive communion?
Do you serve at the Holy Altar too? I'm asking because here in Bulgaria the readers serv as an altar boys and a candle bearers too.
Sure do! My favorite part :-)
Lovely, concise explanation. Great job as usual!
Ваш брат во Христе!
Bojan, what do you think of the Taizé Community? Do you believe this is a good approach towards unity with Protestants? Do you think similar efforts should be undertaken between Catholics and Orthodox?
Bojan, I wanted to ask you this for months and it's not my only inquiry, but I am glad you have this secondary channel because I was consumed by anxiety:
In Genesis 9:27, Noah says "God will expand Japheth, and he will dwell in the tents of Shem and Canaan will be his servant." I have reviewed everything from the Septuagint to Latin Vulgate and Hebrew translations of this passage, I even looked up commentary from priests and even rabbis. In light of my research I need to ask you quite bluntly about it:
Was Noah speaking a prophecy basically how white people would colonize and conquer the world while adopting and nurturing Christianity and the Church in the heart of Europe, and that blacks....have not had the most fortunate history in all their history? I know Japhethites also traditionally include Persians and North Indians (so roughly Indo-Europeans), but these were great empire builders as well. I guess this all ties into as well what precisely the sons of Noah represent racially (where did Asians like the Japanese come from?), but it is one of the most fascinating passages in all if scripture for me.
Also side question: Do the fathers or any other orthodox source state where Germanics/Nordics come from? I have read they come from Gomer/Gog/Magog/Ashkenaz... I don't know it's confusing.
I wanted to word this post a lot better I'm sorry ;_; please just clarify Genesis 9:27 in general I guess because it seems very accurate the way it is "obviously" saying things to pit it bluntly. Of course I am not implying or endorsing any racial prejudice or anything like that, I know that is controversial about it but we can not deny that for example Europeans did a lot in history all over the world. Please understand I'm asking this innocently and scholarly. Thank you!
The prophecy of Noah to Japheth in [Genesis 9:27] applies generally to all gentiles who were firstly "expanded" all around the world and then, through the preaching of the Gospel, they "dwelled in the tents of Shem", i.e. they took part in God's blessings to Abraham and his descendants in faith.
As for us Greeks specifically the prophecy of Noah to Japeth has an additional interest since the name 'Japheth' did survived in Greek Mythology as 'Iapetus'!!! According to Mythology Iapetus and his sons were sometimes regarded as mankind's ancestors! As for the phrase "dwelled in the tents of Shem", many see this prophecy also fulfilled since most Holy places in Palestine are still under the supervision of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem: www.vimaorthodoxias.gr/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/ierosolima_693983008.jpg
@Orthoglobus Ah yes interesting! I believe God intended the Greeks to fortify the faith with their genius thinking and culture, that is why he even let Alexander the Great conquer so much so the culture would spread to the Holy Land in preparation for Christ. Thank you
1:31 but still some priests do hold 40 liturgies once a year. Of course in communities with 2 or 3 priests they could share the task
Thanks Bojan! You answered almost all of it. I suppose the treatment of the Eucharist in the tabernacle is of adoration, isn't it? I've heard that Anglicans (please if there's an Anglican, correct me if I'm wrong) only believe in the presence of the Lord in the species during the Liturgy. Would a Roman Catholic be admitted to communicate in an Eastern Orthodox Liturgy? I've been told as a child that if I ever go to a city with no Catholic churches, that if there's an Orthodox church, I could have communion there, because the excommunications between Western Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxies had been lifted in 1965 or so. Is it that way?
In Spanish J is pronounced like X in Greek "xaipe", though a little more rough, because of the Islamic influence in Spain
I'm a member of the Ordinariate. Most of its members are former Anglicans. I am not, but I've been part of this for about six years, and have gained some familiarity with their beliefs.
There are no set beliefs. Officially, the Book of Common Prayer dictates the creed of the Anglican Communion. Article 28 defines the Prayer Book answer. See here: www.eskimo.com/~lhowell/bcp1662/articles/articles.html#28
However, there are, very generally and roughly, three different factions within Anglicanism that interpret the prayer book in their own way. There are, again, just as general categories: the "high church" (which tend to interpret things the way Roman Catholics do), the "low church" (which interpret things often the way Baptists and evangelical Protestants do), and the "broad church" (which embraces Liberal Christian theology).
So, the high church tend to believe in transubstantiation, or something very close to it. The low church tend to believe in spiritual presence, or that Jesus is only present if you believe, or in consubstantiation. And the liberal church probably doesn't care and uses it as a symbol of oppression of the poor, or somesuchthing.
But an Anglican may believe whatever he wants without criticism from his bishops. Or at least, not from all his bishops. This chaotic relativism is called "latitudinarianism".
@@HolyKhaaaaan thanks!
@@TheRealRealOK so, our sacraments aren't valid for you? None of them? Even baptism? How strange! I wouldn't dare say that of any Christian denominations
@@fojedaquintana what do you mean by that? I don't know why this isn't an universal rule, because, I've heard many stories, mostly in the West, that people who were baptized in Protestant or Catholic Churches don't need to be baptized again in order to join the Orthodox Church, just chrismated (sorry, Idk the right spelling for that word), but here, in Montenegro, I've heard the opposite, especially in Ostrog monastery, that even Catholics (our closest relatives in terms of theology) need to be baptized if they want to become Orthodox. There's even this story, of a girl who's been baptized in Croatia, by a Catholic priest, but had mental issues, was completely crazy, screaming, shaking and stuff; her mother took her to different doctors and hospitals and such, and in the end decided to take her to Ostrog. There, a priest asked her if she was baptized, and her mother replied, yes, by a Catholic priest, then he insisted she needed to be baptized there, in Ostrog, and her mother consented, and as soon as she was baptized, she calmed down instantly and asked her mom "where am I?". So, Idk... I can't say for sure, because I wasn't a witness to this event, but several people swore that they've seen this, and similar miracles happen in Ostrog.
I would say that this is fine, in my opinion, because there needs to be One Baptism, One Communion etc, and if there is THE Church, that our Church claims to be, then all other curches are in error in the best case, or in heresy, in the worst. So, I guess I can get behind this, I see no problem with it. And yes, I know that as well, that Catholics allow their believers to go to the Orthodox Church in the absence of a Catholic one, and take their communion, but vice versa no, we are not allowed to take Catholic communion, or to pray with Catholics, that is, by their prayers.
edit: Oh, and there is a specific, concrete reason why, as well, because our communion breads are different, we don't use unleavened bread like Catholic, but regular, leavened bread. It's just a completely different take on the sacrament of the communion, I guess.
the "prosfora" is the Greek word for "offer"
The Aramaic word for the Divine Liturgy is Qurbana which means Offering.
Hey Bojan, just a quick note, the St. Andrew Missal prescribes the practice of Benediction.
The WR practices this.
Eh I know, but it's not an universal WR practice from what hear. :-)
@@BanterWithBojan Correct. The Antiochians permit it, the Russians do not (ditto for almost all the differences between the two Western Rite vicariates).
One Prosphora is used in parish practice for practical reasons but the rubrics alows for the use on one, three, five or even seven prosphora. The use of several loves can be used for large congregations or if more than one lamb is needed.
The Russian tradition has many small prosphora used for commemorations and five smaller prosphora which have differing images rather than the multi-purpose Greek stamps. Within the Antiochian tradition (mostly in Syria and Lebanon) people bring stacks of bread from which one loaf is taken by the priest to commemorate the lists provided and the others returned to the people who offered them.
The local traditions vary, and the history of the Proscomedia (that is the preparation service) is long complex and involves deacons!
Not the deacons!!!
@@BanterWithBojan Deacons got everywhere in the Early Church and were way more important than Presbyters, there is a whole spiciest area of Church history just looking at what deacons got up too.
Question and Answer #340 from the Longer Catechism of St Philaret of Moscow:
How are we to understand the word, ‘transubstantiation’?
In the confession of faith of the Eastern Patriarchs, it is said that the word transubstantiation is not to be taken to define the manner in which the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of the Lord, for this none can understand but God; but only thus much is signified: that the bread truly, really, and substantially becomes the very true Body of the Lord, and the wine the very Blood of the Lord. In like manner, St John Damascene, treating of the holy and immaculate Mysteries of the Lord, writes thus: “It is truly that Body, united with Godhead, which had its origin from the Holy Virgin, not as though that Body which ascended came down from heaven, but because the bread and wine themselves are changed into the Body and Blood of God; in like manner as, by the same Holy Spirit, the Lord formed flesh to Himself, and in Himself, from the Mother of God; nor know I aught more than this: that the Word of God is true, powerful, and almighty, but its manner of operation unsearchable (St. John Damascene, Exposition, Book IV, Ch. 13, Section 7).
Roman practice is to "fast" for an hour before Mass begins.
I believe the older practice is to fast on Sundays until you go to mass, no matter when you go.
I find it a very honorable tradition.
I think the Copts fast 9 hours, which they say stands for the time Jesus was imprisioned before he walked the Via Dolorosa.
Before liturgical reforms, fasting was from 12am, and Mass was only celebrated in the morning
We tend to fast from midnight until the Eucharist. Full abstentation from food (I will sometimes have water if I'm feeling dehydrated).
Why do they use a spoon?
One Church that claims apostolicity withheld the blood of Christ from the laity for 1,000 years. The other withholds the chalice, contrary to Christ's clear command and promise, preferring, rather, to give both elements on a spoon.
What is more important - the chalice itself, or the Blood in it?
@@BanterWithBojan There is no reason to frame it this way if one simply observes the dominical institution, as opposed to innovating as Rome and the East have done.
What do you think of devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus? I’ve heard some Orthodox call it Nestorian.
Ok would you be able to go into it further? Maybe a video?
I thought the triangle shape signified the Trinity.
7:05 the priest or deacon
If anyone wants to see how Prosphora is made (the Bread) here is a video with English translation. No, we can’t buy the bread, we bake it!
ruclips.net/video/wWgslACJ_4A/видео.html