What Are The Toughest Objections To Postmillennialism? | Live Q&A with Pastor Joel
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- Опубликовано: 14 авг 2022
- 1) Is it true that the early Church Fathers rejected Postmillennialism?
2) Isn’t the dating for the writing of the book of Revelation placed at A.D. 95?
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#postmillennialism #bibleanswers #biblequestions
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Keywords: theology, Reformed theology, podcast, Christian podcast, theology podcast, theology show, Christian show, the gospel
Joel, after salvation five years ago, God called me back into the law enforcement field. As an administrator I have acess to the general public as well as all the other police officers, to share the gospel. He put me here, even when I thought I'd never go back. It's full of trials, but I have never been more at peace. God is doing a mighty work in our community, and I have been greatly blessed to be given this opportunity. Soli deo gloria!
Never thought I’d actually consider postmillenialism!! But currently going through all these videos and I’m more and more convinced.
Praise God!
Don’t consider this garbage. He just said that Christ is reigning on earth “spiritually” because the Holy Spirit lives in the believers. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.
I’m a cage stage PostMillennialist 😂. I’m currently reading Greg Bahnsen’s book on PostMillenialism and it’s excellent. Highly recommend reading it. It gives a fair view of all viewpoints.
Before you go all-in, first pick up "Revelation 20 and the Millennial Debate," by Matthew Waymeyer, and "Premillennialism, Why There Must Be a Future Earthly Kingdom of Jesus," by Michael Vlach.
@@lawrencestanley8989 Thank you for the titles.
😂😂😂 me too
@@lawrencestanley8989this would actually fit in to the puritan postmillenialism view (based on the title) they believe that the millennium is in the future, but that Jesus returns in judgement at the end of that millennium
@@lawrencestanley8989 As a Premillennialist, I agree that the 2nd Advent precedes the Millennium of Rev. 20.
However, the Millennial reign of Christ and His Glorified Saints will not take place 'on the earth', but in heaven.
The 2nd Advent, Rapture, and Resurrection/Glorification of the Saints all happen at the same time (cf. 1 Thes. 4:13-18).
This event (the 2nd Advent and all concomitants) kicks-off the Millennium of Rev. 20.
Historic Premillennialists, and Dispensational Premillennialists (eg. Dr. Vlach) are in error in their assertion that Christ will reign 'on the earth' during the Millennium.
Questions?
Let me know.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
Congratulations! We will be keeping your family in prayer for the safe arrival of the new baby!
Thanks Michael!
This makes more sense than any thing I’ve heard. Thank you.
Great defense regarding the destruction of the temple placing it from a future perspective of the Apostle John when he wrote the Book of Revelation!
Right now he rules and reigns at the right hand of the father right now
Amen!!
You dont have to be postmil to believe that
@@iloveamerica64 you do if you consider Christ’s rule and reign to actually mean something in a tangible way.
Not yet.... Because the regeneration has not taken place yet, see Matthew 19:28.
Correct. Check this out; when i realized how long The Eternal LORD GOD ALMIGHTY Took On flesh, it blew my mind and Magnified HIM in my view to the GLORY of The Tri-HOLY LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. Was It for about 33 years..?. Or, for how long..?.!-)
Thank you for a breakdown in this video!
Pastor Joel, this video was very helpful! Thank you!
Thank you for this, as usual.
You’re welcome. Thanks for your encouragement.
I want to say how much I appreciate your ministry Pastor Webbon. I have been nourished spiritually by this and a few other channels. I'm also postmillennial. I recently had a conversation with someone and as we talked I noticed a very pessimistic, almost dark worldview was emerging from this brother. He kept talking about how bad the world is and that it will only keep getting worse until Jesus returns, and when He comes there will hardly be anyone left that believes the gospel. He also said we are about to go through some tribulations like has never been seen or heard of before in history, which of course is possible, since the saints have had to endure some difficult things throughout the church's history. Come to find out his eschatological view is historic premillennialism, but he sounded very much like dispensationalists I've spoken with in the past. I told him I didn't understand the Scriptures in the same way and tried to explain why. He became agitated and offended and no longer wanted to talk to me. So in summary, eschatology does matter because it affects how you view the gospel and the great commission, and how you live your life as a believer.
Congratulations on your son! I’m so happy for you and your family!
Thank you!
Thank you. This helped a lot.
Congratulations, Joel. Trusting the birth will go well and that the Lord will bless in this matter.
Thanks brother!
Awesome teaching!
Joel-This was impressively detailed. I’m going to have to listen a second time!
I can tell you put a lot of study time and thought into this. Thank You!
Really appreciate that. Very encouraging. Thanks!
This is one of your best videos yet Joel. And that’s coming from someone who’s on the opposite side of the spectrum theologically. Im Pentecostal.
Thank you so much Brother Joel. An excellent summary and biblical exegesis. I have but one small quibble in that your explanation seemed to imply that credo only baptism was necessarily integral to a post mil position which of course it is not. Many if not most post mil Christians such as the puritans in fact held to covenant baptism. The great commission includes baptism in the charge but both types fit the structure just fine.
You are right. No disagreement.
For those that believe the my kingdom is not of this world verse says my kingdom is not in this world need to be held to consistent logic.
YOU MAKE MY BRAIN SMOKE!!
I'm torn! As a loose Premil, Prewrath guy I acknowledge that if Satan wanted to provoke chaos within foreign policies of the nations, relative to Darby's doctrine (1948 partition plan as a biblical sign) and churches, then dispensational premill ( + pretrib) eschatology would be it!
The rational becomes that "Israel must be defended at all cost" so that God's promises can be fulfilled!
I'm torn and seriously studying your POV.
Thanks brother.
PS, If you're wrong, I'll catch you up at the Prewrath rapture 😊
Biggest problem with postmillenialism is human history. The 20th century is a pretty large hurdle and things seem to be getting worse rather than better.
"When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" That does not look like a "Christianized" world.
Thank you Martyn Lloyd Jones for pointing this out. This alone is a total refutation of post millinialism. We are in the reign of Christ now, since the resurrection of Christ until His 2nd coming at the end of the tribulation.
There is a falling away that will come first. The great commission will be successful and then the falling away will come, and then Christ will come.
How can you build an eschatology on just one verse? I'm confused.
@@ReformedBelieverSince96 its not one verse. 2. Thessalonians 2:1-3...
Apostasy comes, then Antichrist, then Christ.
@@Rbl7132 Oh, you only mentioned Luke 18:8. And you said "this alone is a total refutation of postmillennialism" based on that one verse so that's what I was referring to. One other thing, if you believe we are in the reign of Christ now, what does that look like? What is Christ doing at this moment? If He is seated at the right hand of God the Father, which He is, what is He doing in regard to all of us down here on earth? Thank you.
@@ReformedBelieverSince96 because that verse clearly implies that faith will be scarce at that time...
The scriptures are so clear about the direness of last days... That if He did not cut those days short, no flesh shall be saved....
Thank you brother and God bless
I am brand new to the post millennial teaching and in fact a baby Christian (only 7 years).
As you can imagine I have been brought into pre-trib rapture pre millennium teaching.
But I HAVE QUESTIONS! 😂
I certainly no longer believe in pre tribulation rapture and I am struggling in regards to millennial placement.
This morning I attempted to read the book of
'The Revelation of Jesus Christ' with fresh eyes
Right off the bat
Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the RULER OVER THE KINGS OF THE EARTH....
NKJV
I'm a little confused about this? The 10 kings? Which kings does it refer to?
Additionally, the fact that it's the 20th chapter is confusing. Is it your belief that the seal judgements have already taken place?
One thing that I think I might be able to help you with on the question of the 10 kings. So, as you may know, a post millennial view of the first beast spoken of in Revelation is talking about the Roman empire as a whole. One thing that we need to know, is that the text quite literally states that it is a kingdom, not a literal beast. From what the text says, it speaks of it in chapter 17 as, "The Seven Mountains".
Now, what is very interesting about this passage is that during the time period that it was written, is that the "Seven Mountains," was quite literally a nickname for Rome that the known world used for it just as we would call say, Chicago Illinois's nickname is "The Wind City." And so, the readers mind when John said, "The Seven Mountains," would emmediatly recall them to Rome as "The Seven Mountains."
Now, on the question of the 10 kings, there were 10 kings, and one rose out of them, and he is known as the man of unlawlessness. we would say that the 10 kings were the first 10 Roman emperors in that time. The evil horn is speaking about Nero that made war against the saints, and prevailed against them for the time, until the Ancient Of Days came and ultimately put an end to Nero's tyrrany.
I hope that I helped summerized the answer for that question. Watching these videos from Right Response Minnistries is a great thing to do when it comes to this topic! I know that Jeff Durbin from apoligia studios also is a great source for information on this as well! You could probably find a more defined answer for this question from them. There are so many historical facts when it comes to the roman empire that just more or less simply confirm Post-Millenielism about the first beast that is so interesting to study about that modern dispinsational pre-millenielism does not acknowlege or understand as fulfillment for the most symbolic book of the Bible!
I'm completely new to studying eschatology and I feel like those memes where the person is doing a million calculations in their heads and they just look so confused. 😂
Edit to Add: it's past your wife's due date now, so you must have a beautiful new baby. Congratulations to you all!
When talking about the parable of the mustard seed found in Matthew 13, what are the birds?
Steve Gregg the four views on Revelation maybe? It is a side by side through Revelation. Futurist, Preterist, Idealist, and historicist.
Were you ever able to find the side by side commentary that was mentioned towards the end?
Doesn’t post mill also have 2 returns since they say he already returned in judgement of Matthew 24?
Great video on this topic! I missed the livestream but heard it later in the evening.
One question I have after listening: how do you explain the more "pessimistic" Bible verses about the end times? For example:
Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake."
In context this verse appears to be referring to the times just before the end.
Preterism - I would read the prophecies of Christ in Matthew 24 as referencing what occurred in AD 70 (“this generation will not pass away”).
@@RightResponseMinistries What about verse 14 - "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come".
@@cerickson5256 yes.
@@RightResponseMinistries So is the "end" in verse 14 the end of the age or the end of the world? I'm trying to understand where the shift in the discourse occurs.
Wasn’t it emperor Vespasian who gave the orders to his son Titus (the general) to destroy Jerusalem? Didn’t Titus become emperor after his father Vespasian died and after the destruction of Jerusalem?
Do you believe that SC is impending or do we have to wait 2000 years for the world to be Christianize?
I would appreciate Biblical answer?
Thank you
I find lauding the idea of Christian nations and the simultaneous rejection of infant baptism to be inconsistent.
Sounds good, unless you've read Gods word regarding the end, and the many prophecies pertaining to the end, and his return, Just think, our God told us that we are not destined for Gods wrath, but this world is, I believe the word of God, that tells me If I belong to him, he's coming back for his own before Gods wrath is pored out on this rebellious world, then he will restore the earth, and our place in it, ❤
Amen.
Post-millenialism took a beating at the beginning of the last century, especially with WW1. After some resurgence in popularity, it's taking another beating now...and will continue to take a beating. God's word is pretty straight forward about the future. We know generally what's coming. We just don't know a lot of the specifics or the timing.
Hi Judith, if you've read regarding the end... Did it say it was "soon, near, this generation, and at hand"? Were the Scriptures accurate in using those time stamp words? In Postmil, those words meant what they say, and not thousands of years into the future.
You’re reading the already fulfilled prophecies as if they’re future. Look into partial preterism. Matthew 24 & much of Revelation is speaking about the coming judgement on the covenant breaking Jews. For rejecting Christ and crucifying him. This was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70. It’s a historically held position and makes so much more sense of the scriptures.
Yes the time of the end, I don't find any scripture that puts a definitive precise day or hour of Christ's return, however God has indeed told us we can know the season we are in, at the time proceeding his return in the clouds to rescue his own before Gods wrath is poured out, you can point back to as m a ny wars, times in the past to people's expectations of times & the end, however I assume you study the word, how do you explain away, precise prophecy which couldn't have been fulfilled until the world, society and the sciences are today, right now, respectfully brother, I must disagree with your view of the end of this world, ❤
Wonderful discussion Pastor Joel!
I am being won over to Postmil as I listen to you and others. Actually was Voddie Baucham who got me thinking about Amil and moved to Post.
Question: how do you address I Thessalonians 4 16:18?
Thanks and God Bless your ministry
Thanks for your encouragement brother! I believe this passage speaks of Christ’s final return. Christians will be taken up to the sky to meet the Lord in the air and then accompany him back down to earth as he establishes the new heavens on the new earth.
@@RightResponseMinistries many thanks for the quick response. And very helpful!
Thank You
So did I Voddie stirred my interest in amil and postmil escatologies
Alrighty Joel. Love your stuff, love post mil, but I have a question because of the 6 days of creation comment.
How can one be post mil and young earth saying 1,000 years in Rev is figurative but 6 days is literal? Especially when Genesis is so figurative?
Context.
First, is Genesis so figurative? It reads in a rather matter of fact tone, and it is hard to distinguish most of the first 11 or so chapters from the rest in style.
Second, the days of creation have additional descriptive elements, evening and morning, which aren't found in Revelation's time descriptions. That lends itself towards the idea of something like a normal day-night cycle and even accounts for there being no sun as the first day was about the creation of light.
Third, there are other passages that speak to the final judgement and frame it in terms of 1000 years, such as 2 Peter chapter 3. In that chapter, Peter answers the question about why Jesus seems to be delaying his judgement of the reprobate scoffers, and that's where we find the famous line about a day being like a thousand years to God. As postmil (and amil) hold that the final judgement is on the last day when Jesus returns, this seems to overlap with the 1000 years Revelation is speaking of.
Note, I'm not writing this to try to convince you, but to give you some things to keep in mind as you search scriptures for answers. It's fine if you disagree, and now you have a better understanding of what sorts of things others see that help motivate different views from yours.
Joel, at 17:22, I believe you are thinking of the instance where John the baptist’s converts ask him what to do. It is in Luke 3:10-14. It still illustrates your point; it just wasn’t Jesus.
2 things I’d like to clarify. It doesn’t matter when Revelation was written. And you could be pessimistic or optimistic either way.
1)It doesn’t matter when Revelation was written. Either side can make their perspective work either way. For example, if it was written in 90AD the Post Millennial can still say John was writing about things that happened already. This is supported by the fact that John talks about “the slaughtered Lamb” which we all agree is talking about Jesus’ crucifixion. If it was written 65 AD the Pre Millennial can argue that John could be talking about multiple tribulations, with one of them happening in 70AD and another that is yet to come.
2) With the above in mind, you can also have a optimistic or pessimistic view of the future regardless of which eschatology you ascribe to. The Pre Millennial can still be optimistic since technically “world peace” will be brought about from the Antichrist. The Post Millennial can still be pessimistic because we could be living in the “little while” time when Satan is temporarily released to deceive all nations. As per Revelation 20.
Personally I’m a Post Millennial Pessimist. Things just make more sense through scripture and historical events by having the Post Millennial view. I’m also Pessimist because when you look around the the nations of the world, and those schools you mentioned like Harvard etc. it’s clear to see they are falling away from God and are being deceived by Satan.
This is what I struggle with, not just the United States, which would be an argument that the world wide Christian conquest places the U.S. as “small potatoes” in the grand scheme. Which could work as an argument, but the deterioration of Christianity is seemingly world-wide, and the world seems to becoming more and more secular. For example for the past 5-10 years Islam has been on the rise, the Hebrew Israelite movement has been on the rise, and it does not take very long as someone who is preaching the gospel to see how hostile most are to it. But that’s just my observation
What verse and scriptures talks about this upcoming big revival your talking about?? Scripture actually says the opposite that there will be a great falling away
Revelation: Four Views by Steve Gregg
Revelation four views by steve gregg..puts all fours views side by side..thats the book you mean
Yes.
@Right Response Ministries brilliant book he lets the reader decide even though he is partial pretorist it doesnt show he just puts the views out there,his teaching on rev on RUclips is phenomenal, much like chilton,gentry,wilson,durban ect
So the amillennialist position is the only one for whom Rev 6-19 applies to Christians today. I’m going to have to think about this.
Good point with the measuring outer court of the temple . . .
@Jannette Lewis, re Rev 1-19: as far as yet to be fulfilled prophecy, yes. But it still applies to us the same as other fulfilled prophecies in scripture-it is still God’s word written for our instruction.
Ironically, Postmill and Premill end in the same way- with the Church losing in history and needing a "last-second" salvation from Heaven to destroy the foes.
I think the toughest objection involves the more preterist leaning post-millennial viewers. Meaning, if you take “end of the age” to speak of the Old Covenant age, Matthew 13 becomes difficult to speak of it related to our current circumstances as that “end of the age” is the same one as Matthew 24.
Basically, you will get former post-millennial guys like David Chilton turning into full blown hyper preterist. Which I understand now why Kenneth Gentry holds the “end of the age” to be the “end of history.”
Very helpful.
The Geneva Bible, Tindale's New Testament, and the King James Bible all read end of the "world", not "era", in those key verses.They are based on the MajorityText manuscripts (Textus Receptus). The new Bibles are based on a "New Greek Text" created in the 1800's by scholars Westcott and Hort in England which is based on far fewer manuscripts and differs in many places from the Textus Receptus which all Bibles were based upon until the late 1800's.
@@beaulin5628 I don't find that according to the manuscripts we have available. The greek word αἰῶνος is the same in all the manuscripts.
I will look it up. The new Bibles are based on different underlying Greek than the Textus Receptus and differ in many places. I have printed copies of Tindale's New Testament, The Geneva Bible, and the King James Bible and they all translate that word as "world" in English, not "era". If it is the exact same Greek word the difference is in the choice made by the translators of the new versions. It is a serious difference in meaning of WHEN the events of Matthew 24 will happen.
@@mr400meter If it is a difference in translation in that verse in those printed Bibles that I have, that time period is also described in Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
the number 1 reason for pre-trib rapture being wrong is 2nd and third coming , but if Christ pre-raptures the church and immediately returns ,yet 7 years on earth passes but was simultaneously for those raptured .. There is as much assumption in this as there is a post millennial rapture, is there not ?
Im sry but if i can correct you pre-mil pre -trib do not believe in 2 returns at the rapture of the church they believe that Jesus "catchs us up in the air " and then after the tribulation Jesus returns to earth to rule and reighn!!!
Hey Joel. Thank you for your work. I would appreciate if you could articulate the premill view according to the best of that camp not the worst, such as John MacArthur being an excellent representative. Demonstrate how he interprets the passage and then explain why you think that fall short and give the Postmill perspective. I am a custom to you and others in the Postmill camp taking the best arguments of Armenians or those who want to comply with Covid mandates, quoting directly how they interpret scripture and then you present your exegesis of those passages. I can appreciate that for issues regarding baptism or five point Calvinism, There are maybe 10 to 20 key passages. But with eschatology we have closer to 700 passages that need a viable interpretation. But even if we just took the passages you quoted today can you please tell me how John MacArthur or the very best from the pre-mill dispensational camp interprets those verses and why their interpretation is not viable? Then proceed to present your own interpretation? That’s what I was hoping for today.:-) If you compare the best of Post Mill against the worst of pre-mill it’s not really a fair fight. That could be true of every denomination as well. If this is too Big of a task please keep working through a section of scripture at a time and showing the Postmill view, What’s the verse by verse interpretation of Ezekiel? What’s the post Mill verse by verse interpretation of Isaiah Daniel Zachariah revelation. That way if I want to know the PostM view of of those versus I can listen to you and then I can compare them to the best of another camp. It is by studying the best of Armenian versus Calvinism I came to believe in the doctrines of grace. It is by listening to the best arguments for pedo versus credo baptism I examined my own traditions. I can currently listen to a six part series by John MacArthur why every Calvinist should be pre-millennial in which he does not even touch Daniel or revelation Because of their writing style it’s more debatable. If you are noticing errors in his handle in scripture can you please help me see them because I’m not noticing them. How would John MacArthur interpret Isaiah 2? Daniel 2? What mistakes , however well-intentioned he was, do you think he made and why? For example Isaiah 2. Why is it not a viable option that this is referring to the millennial kingdom on earth and all the nations will go to Jerusalem to learn God’s law at the temple described in Ezekiel?
Daniel 2 - pre mill would point out First the other kingdoms are destroyed without a trace. Blown away like dust, THEN the kingdom grows and fills the whole earth. Pre-mills wouldn’t interpret this as Christ returns and destroys all the wicked then slowly repopulates the earth after the sheep and goat judgement with the faithful who are still remaining on the earth. They would argue the parable of the mustard seed is not directly related to this mountain. I can appreciate you disagree. That’s fine. Can you please demonstrate why do you think Jesus was making a prince to this mountain when he described the parable of the mustard seed or the yeast. Because the mustard seed and yeast permeate and grow slowly amongst other kingdoms. The mountain destroys the other kingdoms completely and then grows. But again it’s fine if you disagree but please interact with the very best of the other side and demonstrate why the post mill position is more consistent or more viable.
With all due respect, if you think Arminianism is the alternative to Calvinism, you have been conned.
Research videos from --Leighton Flowers -- if you want to see through the obvious con-job of Calvinism. Calvinism uses a twisted dictionary, and Arminians use the same twisted dictionary.
With all due respect, Armenius was a Calvinist disciple. Armenianism is a false Strawman used to prop up the lie of Calvinism.
PS: If you have been in Calvinism several years, your mind has been affected, and it will require many months of Leighton Flowers videos to undo the damage Calvinism has done to your mind.
Another set of videos is provided by Kevin Thompson if you want heavy-duty Bible study, but Kevin may be too sharp for many people.
Bottom Line: Calvinism is. ‘Different Gospel’, and you will be blessed if you check out Leighton Flowers.
I will make the same point regarding Post-Mil. These guys Strawman the Pre-mil position to a ridiculous level. They slander us saying we don’t think Jesus is reigning now.
Revelation 20:3-6 is the literal Biblical definition of the Millennium (=‘thousand year reign of Christ) and it certainly reads like the Resurrection of the saints occurs before the millennium, and it reads like events occur after this thousand year period where saints reign with Christ.
So, it is a stupid Strawman lie to say Pre-Mil people don’t believe Christ reigns on earth now. The millennial reign is a specific period where specific events occur before & after this period.
What is the name?
What about the verses about the narrow gate and few finding it?
I like to crank it up all the way to 11.
Let's say zero people find the narrow gate on their own unaided by God, per Rom 3 "none seek after God." Does that preclude God from saving anyone, let alone a vast number of people? Not at all. Salvation doesn't depend on man's ability to find the gate, but on God, who is mighty to save. So I don't think this verse says anything that is contrary to postmil, even if we try to make it as extreme as possible.
Why don't you look at history is the state a good thing or not
Looking at scripture, it is both.
When the state organizes itself according to God's commands, it goes well for the people, but when the state start doing whatever seems right in their own eyes and neglect God's commands, it goes poorly. Man sinning against God and putting their own laws over God's doesn't mean that the state is bad in principle; God ordains the state. And yet the state running on God's authority doesn't mean it is good in all it does, even in its disobedience to God.
Timestamps on the video would be helpful
Okay, I am not saying there aren't some good points. You said Isaiah 2 and Daniel 2 are talking about the same mountain and that it crushed rhe "bad nations". Trying to see where that was at in the scripture?
Yeah he rules with a rod of iron so don't get in his way
Your first son!!! You’re in for a fun ride with being a boy parent, it’s mighty different from a little girl. 😂😂😂 You’re basically just trying to stop them from killings themselves the first 5-6 years.
Can you answer common tough textual arguments against post millennialism??
Okay so not quite understanding the really long discussion of people being Christians as magistrate or civil employees.
I was mystified at first as well - I think the point of that this thesis is we're supposed to spread the gospel and when the fruit (people who accept Christ) starts to take root within our civil authorities, and literally ever aspect of our society, then we will start to see the earthly Kingdom of God shine forth, laws will change, etc. to reflect Christ's kingdom. I'm still trying to understand the perspective and work it all out.
For the postmillennialist when does this verse occur? Does it ever occur? "In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.” When does this promise to the apostles occur? "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." One detail that you need to understand about dispensational eschatology is that we do not believe that the millennium is primarily about the church. As a premillennialist I believe that there will be a literal fulfillment of both of these verses during a literal millennium. The millennium is first about Israel and then about redeemed people of the earth who are under the authority of King Jesus Who reigns on the throne of David. For the premillennialist, the church's origin and destiny is heavenly and therefore the millennium is something that we "observe" from the New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven that is "over the earth" -- not on the earth. As Revelation describes it is a 1,500 mile cube that is "over the earth", not on the earth.
Congratulation on an imminent new arrival....a boy!...but you knew the job was going to be tough! lol...wait! How many times in sacred scripture is a certain amount of years is specifically announced? I believe it will be a 1000 years. The "...a day is a thousand years )and vice versa)" was, I believe, to show how important time is to believers, and not necessarily the amount of years...
Another internal argument for pre-ad70 writing is that the 6th king of Rome (Neron Caesar) is on the throne as John is writing (Rev. 17:10)
I’ve been blessed by RRM content and very thankful for this channel, but it’s a shame how libertarianism is consistently mischaracterized. Pastor Joel, you talk frequently about being consistent - I’m a libertarian precisely because it is the most consistent expression of Christian political thought! I’m Reformed and was Amil, have been about 90% convinced of Postmil by this channel, and I’ve been a libertarian for over a decade. Not once have I ever heard a serious Christian libertarian say that govt employees or elected officials “should not” follow Christ & obey His commands in their role.
Rather, the fact is that the very nature of the nation-state is inherently hostile to God’s law. The definition of the state, based on its sole unique characteristic, is that it is the organization in society which claims for itself the sole moral authority to use aggressive force, i.e. initiate violence against peaceful people, within a geographic area. This is fundamentally wicked. The one & only being in the universe with the moral authority to initiate violence is God. Humans have no right or authority to do this to each other, which is written explicitly into the Decalogue.
Further, the institutionalized usurpation of this right from God as rebellion against His authority has been demonstrated throughout the Bible from the very beginning with the tower of Babel. A “civil magistrate” is indeed a Godly institution in society, but the nation-state is a usurper and an abomination. It’s amazing how devout Christians who have lived through the last 3 years still insist on conflating “governing authorities” and “the civil magistrate” with the nation-state, interpreting Romans 13 as if it stands in stark contrast to Genesis 11, 1 Samuel 8, Matthew 4, and frankly the entire scope of the Biblical narrative. Coercion, much less institutionalized coercion, is neither loving of neighbor nor honoring of God; yet, claiming the moral authority to do it is the nation-state’s single characteristic distinguishing it from any other type of organization in society.
Pastor Joel, in your quest for consistency, I pray that you seek further guidance on this topic from Christian libertarians who have been studying and wrestling with this topic for many years. Great places to start include the AnarchoChristian podcast, The Reformed Libertarians Podcast, and The Libertarian Christian Podcast.
Yes! Thank you for this comment I think this my biggest hang up keeping me in an amill position, I feel as though the amill is the libertarian sorta option lol
Also I love the remormed libratarians podcast
The Lord returns after the tribulation (which is not 7 years, but half of that) to resurrect the remaining believers who went through the tribulation which is the greatest test to ever be, and to then execute the physical wrath of God in return for the suffering of believers in that test, followed by the King's rule for 1,000 years on the throne of Israel. Just giving a snapshot of how I see it, not going to type it all out in subsequent comments. Appreciate Joel's convictions, and other than the timing and millennial period, am in agreement with the living of this life until He comes.
And, the fruit of humanism, to bring things current, goes from Stalin to Planned Parenthood to Sanger to Biden.
Amen, I say the PM's will be pleasantly surprised ❤
The staff with the serpent on the ambulance is unfortunately the staff of Asklepius not the bronze serpent of Moses.
We back in the day in South Africa did not promise the oath of Hippocrates because of its swearing to Asklepius. South Africa back then was actually what some would call mere christendom. How has it fallen since St Mandela.
Why would the 1000 years not be literal?
Because hardly anything at all in the book of Revelation is literal.
@@Spurgeon_Generalhow do you know that? What is the “Tell” in the text?
The greatest objection to postmillennialism is by far...The Bible.
'We believe the great commission will work'... Love you brother, but sometimes statements like this are maybe better stated differently. Your implication is that the other views dont think the great commission will work which is a fairly ungenerous thing to say to brothers, not to mention is an inaccurate representation of their views
How so? The point isn't that pre and amils don't believe anyone will get saved by the gospel. The point is the that world will largely be won over to Christ.
Joel I have been binging your channel 1/2 the day and I love hearing the articulation of your position, but I think you're making a strawman around the 23:00 mark when you say if one believes in Pre-mill, we have to believe the great commission will fail. That's just not the case.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say 100% of the great commission will be successful - in fact, we're told multiple times wheat and tare will live together in the kingdom until the end of the age. Yes,, the Kingdom of God will grow slowly and expand -- but nowhere does that imply that ALL of the earth will be controlled by that kingdom of God in the sense of the post-mill position, that somehow without Christ, the saints will be ruling with a rod of iron and all nations will eventually fall into compliance.
Jesus himself, the greatest teacher of Scripture, had many who heard his message and rejected him. If these people rejected Jesus, why do the post-mill people somehow think the Gospel will not be rejected as well? Jesus even said as much - since they hated Him, they'll definitely hate us.
Does the post-mill position take a preterist stance on that hatred? That the hatred Jesus was referring to was ONLY going to be toward the apostles at the time and not modern-day hatred?
What about the love of many growing cold in the last days, and people turning in their own family to death? This certainly may have happened in the Roman time, when it was illegal to practice Christianity, but it's also happening today. How does the preterist reading of NT prophesy fit with how our world is currently operating -- more and more against Christianity by the moment?
You certainly reading the plain text of Isaiah, brother, in particular the final chapter.
I am firmly postmill however I think you should deal more with partial preterist objections, such as how Jesus’ “coming” seems to not be separated between his coming in judgment locally on Jerusalem and his final coming. When Paul speaks of judgement coming, it seems to be paired always with the final coming of Christ with his angels and a resurrection, and a perfection of salvation for elect. I don’t know how Jesus’ coming to Jerusalem can be separated from that. At least, that’s the “sense” I get from Scripture is that there was one event that everyone was looking for, not two.
Post mil folks could literally see everything in Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation, happening physically right before their eyes and still think it’s all metaphorical 😢…we are seeing the one world govt , currency, and religion form in front of our very eyes..wondering when y’all are finally going to be like “ok I can’t deny it anymore”
Yeah, we see the tiny rock uncut from human hands entering the world 2000 years ago and at present in the middle of growing to fill the whole world.
As far as newspaper exegesis, I see nation after nation pushing back against the globalist agenda. BRICS has formed to counter their failing economic pyramid scheme, the failed morality of the globalists is leading to a renewed look into traditional religion and more are seeing why abandoning Christianity lead to so much decline in their nation. People are pushing back like never before.
If anything, I think they are pushing so hard right now because they are on the brink of defeat and need to project whatever strength they can to fool the gullible into letting them win anyway.
He doesn't return to the Earth on the rapture he only comes in the clouds of the sky can't you guys not read
We meet Him in the air. You are reading into the passage that He is returning to heaven and not on His way to earth. The postmillennial position is that He is coming to earth and His people meet Him in the air as a greeting party. One of the biggest problems that people have is that they read their own traditions into the text. You have to interpret 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 in light of 1 Corinthians 15, not some tradition. "Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed." The resurrection and the rapture happen at the last trumpet. Not, before! When the last enemy (death) is put under Christ's footstool, and He delivers the Kingdom to His Father.
Not saying I am pre-mill but, i think that considering the Rapture as a return of Christ is a mischaracterization. They would hold that the Rapture is a call out/up of the bride not a Christ come down.
Post explanations are as speculative as pre.
Brother you said a lot of good things in regard to the fulfilment of the great commision. However, onething you don't realize is that, the christianization of a Nation is not the goal of the great commision. So that people will be saved, but these will only be the elect in any nation. They will live righteously in every sphere they occupy, however, in all spheres it will also be the wheat and Tares in existence. Hence by this, the influence of the Christian to bring holy chsnge and pursue righteousness will experience opposition. Thus the Christian will be a light in the midst of a crooked and perverse world. This means, personally we will pursue holiness a d live to God, but the impact on society will not be perfect and hence the Nation will only impart be brought under God's law, influenced by the gospel and the lae of Chtist. At best, it will look like Israrl made up of believers and unbelievers. Thud this will be the field of Matt 13. However, as the end draws near, it's clear evil will increase and the effect of the gospel on society will diminish as its happening. Thus the warfare will intensify. My point Is this, the success of the gospel is to make witnesses in every sphere of life, but as to whether it will Christianize the NATION as a whole to cause it to become one that honors God snd his law, that is not guaranteed by the gospel in all place. So that the presence of the Church as the temple city and holy nation is what is the goal of the gospel. This is the theocracy of Christ in the world. Thus they is indeed the kingdom of light and the kingdom of darkness dwelling togther with both beibg under Christ. The end of the age is when the whole world will become the kimgdom of Righteousness abd perfect holiness. This will cone about through great persecution of the Church that will lead to the 2nd coming that will bring about the seperation and remival of all the wicked. Thus the great mountain that will fill the whole world will ve seen only at the 2nd coming. For now,it will grow as a mustard seed, eith a few who are united yo it as birds in every natiins wjo find rest in it. Thus the church as the wheat will grow by extending it shoots to the nations and becoming a kimgfom made up of people of all kinds. But it will be as a wheat dwelling among tares. This opposition and tension will exist until the end . So let's give a balanced perspective of the nature of the Prosperity of the gospel. How many nations have been made Christian nations since pentecost? Not all the Nations of the world. Tet Christians have increased from obesity nation to the other and churches have been established. Further even those Christian nations re all dwindling and the reason is the end of near. For this is what the Bible says about Satan bring relaesed again before the end. Thus the salt and light effect on the world will be diminished. As a result sin will increase. Until the judgment
In Matthew 19:28, 25:31, Jesus says that He will assume His glorious Davidic throne *at the time of His second coming.* This is very significant. Jesus explicitly ties His Davidic throne reign with His second coming to earth and not before. This shows that Jesus’ kingdom is future from our standpoint. The kingdom comes when Jesus comes again. This truth makes amillennialism and postmillennialism impossible since these positions assert that Jesus is now reigning from the Davidic throne in His millennial kingdom in this age.
Incidentally, the “regeneration” spoken of in Matthew 19:28 refers to the renewal of the cosmos; the glorification of creation (Romans 8:19-23); the eschatological restoration of all things (Acts 3:21). So, because Jesus has not yet returned in glory with all of His angels, because there has not yet been a glorification of the creation, Jesus’ Davidic Kingdom rule is yet future, therefore any views that see Christ's Davidic reign as a present reality are necessarily false.
I'm not sure that those two verses alone are all that compelling. Sticking with just Matthew under the assumption that Matthew isn't contradicting himself left and right but is presenting one unified message that can be harmonized, Jesus also said: Matt 12: 28 "But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." And (interesting fact), Jesus had just cast out a demon a few verses prior, so using modus ponens, the kingdom of God had come among the people 2000 years ago when Jesus was on earth during his first coming.
Also in Matthew, we have an upper limit as to exactly when Jesus receives his kingly authority: Matt 28: 18 - "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." So at the latest, Jesus officially becomes king 5 seconds before he said that, but it could be earlier, perhaps his resurrection or death on the cross. Personally I would look at his baptism as his coronation, but I wouldn't be dogmatic about it.
Let's look at your verses and what is and is not said.
Matt 19: 28 - "Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
This verse doesn't actually seem to give an order to when these things are happening, it reads more like a list of conditions that are all true: When X and Y, then Z will be the case. Moreover, the throne is a seat of judgement, so it sounds more like when Jesus is in chambers and weighing matters of law and issuing judgements, his disciples will be beside him on their own thrones judging the people. It just doesn't sound like a timeline and seems awkward to force it into one.
Matt 25: 31 - "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne."
This does establish a timeline, so seems to be a more compelling verse to focus on. Yet again, this is about when Jesus will sit on his throne, a seat of judgement, not when he will be coronated, i.e. receive the power and authority due to him as king. Postmill holds that it is at the second coming that Jesus will judge the nations, so at least on the surface, this doesn't seem contradictory.
So can we put all of Matthew's teaching together in a way that makes sense? I think so. We know the kingdom was present 2000 years ago, we know Jesus has the power of king just before his ascension. So it seems to me the proper understanding is that Jesus established the kingdom during his first coming, he received his crown by the time of his ascension, he ascended to heaven and presently sits at the right hand of God, and then when he returns, then he will judge the nations. So Jesus is king now and is ruling in heaven, and these verses are about one particular future act Jesus will perform as king, the final judgement. The brute facts of the timeline fit several different eschatologies, including postmil.
@@oracleoftroy
Your argument is based upon the assumption that "the throne of His glory" is regarding Christ's "seat of judgment," but the text does not say that, nor can it be contextually derived. When the judgment seat of Christ is mentioned in scripture, it is called specifically by that name (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 14:10), whereas both Matthew 19:28 and 25:31 are speaking of the throne of God in a general sense, and when judgment is mentioned in 19:28, it isn't Christ who is sitting in judgment, but the Apostles, and this takes place AFTER the regeneration of all things, which most assuredly has not yet taken place.
Matthew 25 is the sheep and the goats judgment, something that occurs AFTER the Son of Man comes in His glory, this is the regeneration spoken of in Matthew 19:28. He first sits on His glorious throne, and then judgments come after. You seem to be conflating "sitting on the throne" with "judgment." Both the Great White Throne Judgment and the Judgment Seat of Christ are things that happen from the throne, but before He can do anything from the throne, He must first sit on the throne, and the text makes this obvious that this will not happen until after the regeneration, which is yet future from our perspective.
And Matthew 12:28 does not make Matthew contradict himself. All that passage conveyed is that the King was in their midst as he exercised His sovereign power.
As for Matthew 28:18, yes, Jesus is sovereign, but, as we see in Jeremiah 23:5-6, 33:15-16 Christ takes the Davidic throne when He executes judgment and justice IN THE EARTH. This is His Millennial reign, not before. You are taking the passage "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me," and making it say something that the text simply does not say.
@@lawrencestanley8989 _"Your argument is based upon the assumption that "the throne of His glory" is regarding Christ's "seat of judgment," but the text does not say that, nor can it be contextually derived"_
And your argument seem to take the advice of "point weak, pound pulpit harder" or in this case, bold or capitalize the text, as you didn't show your key assumptions directly from scripture. My argument points out that the text doesn't say what you need it to say to demand your interpretation be the only one that obtains, but rather when we examine the text, it is more open ended than you pretend.
You assume a distinction between "judgment seat" and "throne", but why assume that? The throne _is_ the judgement seat and I see no argument to understand this differently. It is called by many names as there are many names and roles for a throne in scripture. There are such things as "synonyms" and when the same idea is described from a different angle or given a related label, it doesn't become an entirely new thing.
_"...and when judgment is mentioned in __19:28__, it isn't Christ who is sitting in judgment, but the Apostle..."_
I think this shows how carefully you are reading scripture. They are all sitting on their thrones together. There are 13 thrones in this verse. They all have seats of authority and are together during this judgement. "...when the Son of Man will *sit* on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will *also sit* on twelve thrones..." 12 + 1 thrones and 12 + 1 people sitting on those thrones as the twelve tribes are judged.
_"Matthew 25 is the sheep and the goats judgment, something that occurs AFTER the Son of Man comes in His glory..."_
Err, yes. I agree that the final judgement is final. Not sure how this helps your case or hurts mine. Did you read my post? Coming after the final judgement gives a broad timeline for Jesus to come into glory any time beforehand. Note that you correctly say "after", not "immediately after" which would be a point of contention. I think Jesus has already come into his glory and that the final judgement is still future, so my view fits this timeline.
_"You seem to be conflating "sitting on the throne" with "judgment.""_
Judgement is one of the activities of the king when he is in session. I actually listed out a small and in no ways exhaustive list of things the king does when on the throne, as I partially feared you might try to get nitpicky (I didn't think you would, but I guess I was wrong and should have added more to make that clear).
_"Both the Great White Throne Judgment and the Judgment Seat of Christ are things that happen from the throne, but before He can do anything from the throne, He must first sit on the throne, and the text makes this obvious that this will not happen until after the regeneration, which is yet future from our perspective."_
And again, that's fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough. I showed that Christ was both king and had a kingdom 2000 years ago. You seem to imply that a king is only king when his court is in session or that his kingdom ceases to exist if he isn't actively sitting on the throne, but I see no reason to assume that is true. The king is king when he is crowned. He doesn't stop being king when his court is closed or when he is asleep, he is always king even if he does not hold session for years. Sitting on the throne is only one part of being a king, and not the part that makes one a king. You overplay your hand when you make being a king solely about sitting on a throne.
_"And Matthew 12:28 does not make Matthew contradict himself. All that passage conveyed is that the King was in their midst as he exercised His sovereign power."_
And now you contradict yourself. On the one hand, Jesus is a "king". Being a "King" implies that he has a kingdom, but your opening premise is "Jesus’ kingdom is future". No, Jesus is king now, and thus his kingdom is now. Jesus was king then thus his kingdom existed then as well. A king has a kingdom and a kingdom has a king. Jesus said his kingdom was among them 2000 years ago, not that it was still future. The plain statements of Matthew refute your view, so you overly focus on the final judgement to make up for it.
_"As for Matthew 28:18, yes, Jesus is sovereign, but, as we see in Jeremiah 23:5-6, 33:15-16 Christ takes the Davidic throne when He executes judgment and justice IN THE EARTH. This is His Millennial reign, not before."_
This doesn't address my point. Neither a king nor a kingdom cease to exist when the king goes to bed. He doesn't have to sit in a particular spot to have authority or rule over a people. You overplay the throne to absurd levels to make your case. You are right that Jesus is not on his throne issuing the final judgement right now. Thank God! But that does not refute either that Jesus is king or that his kingdom is now.
_"You are taking the passage "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me," and making it say something that the text simply does not say."_
I use that to show that Jesus is king. You seem to agree Jesus is king, so how am I overstepping?
@@oracleoftroy
Oh, so you're only in this for an argument. Never mind then.
@@lawrencestanley8989 Lol, which of us is being argumentative? I'm showing that your case isn't as strong as you think it is and those verses can support a variety of views. You'd need to fill in the gaps to narrow it down to yours. Moreover, other verses in Matthew seem to present problems that would also need to be addressed.
While I do hold to postmil, that isn't a requirement to point out the flaws in the case you present, and I think amil and some forms of premil could raise many of the same points.
No it only says in the Bible a thousand years why wouldn't it be right
1000 is a perfect number. "God owns the cattle on a thousand hills." (Psalm 50:10) Well, what about the cattle on the thousand and 1st hill. Does God not own them? Of course not. He owns the cattle on all the hills. 1000 years means an indefinite long time, like 1000 hills means an indefinite large number of hills. 1000 years, 1000 hills, 1000 generations... "And showing loving kindness to thousands of generations who love me and keep my commandments." (Exodus 20:6) By the way, if a generation is 40 years, 1000 generations is 40,000 years. Given that we're only at about 6000 years of human history total, that leaves us with 36,000 more years to go.😁
@@danreichenberg5249 human history, and the history of the planet, far exceeds 6000 years... The modern European gene pool was formed before 6000 years ago. And if all the dinosaurs existed within the last few thousand years then all dinosaur fossils would contain DNA.
@@aallen5256 The only problem with your statement is that it is false. First, soft tissue, and even DNA, has already been found in dinosaur bones. So, you are still using outdated information on that account. But, we need to understand something fundamental to science. Science is great about telling us things about the present, but it is horrible at telling us things about the past. The reason for that is that the past is unobservable. My background is in engineering, and one of the first things I learned in engineering school is that if you make the wrong assumptions you will always get the wrong answer. How do you verify your assumptions? You do so through observation. Since the past is unobservable, assumptions made about the past are unverifiable, and therefore any calculations made about the past can't be trusted. Anyone who tells you that they know what happened 100,000 or a million years ago is simply lying. They don't know because they can't know. Meanwhile geneticist Dr. Nathaniel Jeanson Phd, who is on staff at Answers in Genesis, has traced all recorded human male Y chromosomes to 2 or 3 men who were alive approximately 4500 years ago. But, we have much more certain evidence than that. We have God's word that says that God created the world in 6 days approximately 6000 years ago, that He judged it with a global flood approximately 4500 years ago, and that the world was repopulated by 3 brothers and their wives. There are ultimately only two epistemologies. You either believe God, or you lean on your own understanding. And, while it is impossible for God to lie, our understanding is an ever changing mass of uncertainty and outright lies.
@@danreichenberg5249 Oh no.. there has been a single finding of dinosaur soft tissue and a separate single finding of DNA in very specific fossilisation environments! If all the dinosaurs lived and died within the last 6000 years DNA would be common to the majority of their fossils, do you understand that??
@@danreichenberg5249 The oldest sequenced Homo sapiens DNA is from the Cheddar Man, he was found in the UK and is 10,000 years old and a relative of his is alive today living as a teaching less than a mile away.
Scientists shouldn’t need to look to Genesis, or any sacred text, to validate their work. There is a global, interfaith, scientific consensus about the age of the earth. And only fundamentalist Christian’s disagree, because their faith dictates they must.
Ecclesiastes 3:15: “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away.” The “natural man” cannot grasp that, for to him reality is based only on the evidence of the senses. The man of reason could justify the verse’s end, saying if it has any meaning then the writer must mean recurrence. The sun comes every day and the moon completes its cycle and the seasons come and go. If we took a picture of the universe today, the scientists can compute how long it will take to return to this point in the picture. So the intellectual man could justify the verse; but that is not what is meant, for it is addressed not to the man of reason or the man of sense, but to the man of Imagination. What is it all about? “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been, and God seeks what has been driven away.”
Would you be willing to do a video on the Trinity?
The historical case raises many questions:
1) Difference between the original Nicene Creed and the Nicene-Constantinople Creed.
2) The presentation of the Creed occurring in concert with Christianity becoming the official religion of the Roman Empire. Triune deities were common in Roman pagan belief; perhaps Christianity was romanized and not the inverse.
3) The link between the Creed and the Roman Empire suggests a link to Roman Catholicism and its pagan practices and aesthetics.
Beyond that, the biblical case for co-equality between Christ and the Father are thin or, at times, contradictory.
I understand that many shoot down any of these questions as Arian heresy. Fine. But I think there are questions worth considering about such a foundational and fundamental doctrine. Especially in light of the first commandment implications if the doctrine is in error.
Thanks and God bless.
Alot of bickering going on in comments. Hopefully its in love
Why do Postmillenialists always get crushed debating Historic Premillennialists?
I'd be very interested in seeing such a debate. Would you mind pointing me to a debate like that so I can share it with a friend of mine? I've been searching for one, but haven't found one yet. Thanks very much.
@@ReformedBelieverSince96 You have RUclips. Simply search. Historic Premillennialism has slowly overtaken New Testament scholarship in the last two decades with little fan fair. It's becoming harder to find seminary professors who are Postmillenial.
@@tinroof4816 No, I meant one where the pre-mills are crushing the post-mills. They simply do not exist.
The toughest part of any eschatology that has Jesus second coming still in our future is that you’re reading the Bible for me global perspective and not a old covenant Israel perspective. For some reason people think that is going to come back at some point in time and end human history and Judge all humanity lol. Jesus is dealing with Israel and Israel only. And that includes the Gentiles who are descendants of the divorced northern tribes.
Already half way through and haven’t gotten to any postmill problems, you’re just explaining postmill. Just get to the issues and make this a different video
You'll probably have to quit your job it's going to be getting so bad out there you couldn't be a politician and a Christian and hardly
Whether one is "premil" or "postmil" or "amil", the mission for Christians should be the same.That is to rescue as many people from eternal destruction as we can who are dying all around us every day from myriad causes. Also to promote righteousness on earth by actively participatingin, and influencing government at the federal, state, and local levels toward God's principles as much as possible, especially in the United States where "Caesar" has been put under the authority of the citizens. Retreating from politics into unbiblical "pietism" instead of being "salt" and "light" in this wicked world is a heresy that has caused terrible damage to our nation, lives, families and the entire world.
Pre-Mils do not claim multiple returns of Christ. They acknowledge being caught up in the air to meet Christ. There is no claim Christ returns to earth for that. Get the facts right before denigrating the view. Ugh. I really want to listen to your position and make my own conclusions, but you make it very hard when stones are cast toward any view not aligned with yours.
I think he has that part right. I do believe premil thinks there are 2-3 returns.
I think it depends on the premil. Dispy premil more so, but I have heard from some of multiple returns of Christ on a variety of premil systems. Premil isn't a monolith. Plus it shifts around quite a bit every 5 or so years. I haven't kept up with the current iteration, but I remember hearing it a lot 15-20 years ago. Maybe it's fallen out of favor in the current batch of theories.
But yes, there are some versions that teach only one return. In my experience, that's very rare, but again, I haven't kept up with the shifts in premil teaching, and maybe that is now the dominant view.
For Christian teachers who say they "believe the Bible" there is no justifiable reason to read the words "a thousand years" specifically stated SIX TIMES in Rev.20:1-7 and decide that it does NOT mean an exact time period during which Jesus will reign on earth from Jerusalem. The same people believe that verses which say we are "saved by "faith" and "not by works of righteousness" which are not repeated so many times in quick succession mean exactly what they say. They believe countless things that are stated only ONCE in the Bible but reject this information which was given by The Risen Christ to the Apostle John who also wrote the glorious Gospel of John!
You have read the very verses from Isaiah which describe the Thousand-Year-Reign of Christ from "the mountain of the Lord" in Jerusalem and have ascribed other meaning to it. Ezekiel Chapters 40-48 describe the Millenniel Temple in great detail even to the eventual positioning of the twleve tribes of (saved) Israel around it. Tear that out of our Bibles? It means nothing and Ezekiel must have been a false prophet?
Both Augustine and John Calvin approved INFANT BAPTISM which is not taught or seen in the New Testament! The Word of God is the authority for believers, not Calvin (who advocated burning "heretics") or Luther, or Augustine, or 'The Desert Fathers' (who introduced monasticism) or any past or present leaders in the Christian faith who all made errors and are still making them.
And everything else in Rev 20: 1-7 should be taken exactly as literally as the 1000 years. Just as we must take it as exactly 365250 days down to the second, we must understand that the angel has a physical key that opens a literal pit without a bottom and a physical chain to bind a literal dragon. And of course, when verse 4 speaks of those in the first resurrection and we ignore that there are more than just martyrs in that group, and then verse 6 says it is just those in the first resurrection that escape the second death (defined as the lake of fire in verse 14), we just have to accept that most Christian's won't spend eternity with Christ, they will be sent to the lake of fire for happening to live in peaceful times.
And if on any of these points we hold to something other than the strictest woodenly literal interpretation, why then, we might question if the 1000 years is also not exactly the literal statement it appears to be at first, but itself another picture with deeper meaning behind it.
@@oracleoftroy Some things are literal in the Bible and some things are symbolic. We must look at the entire context of the Bible to determine which are literal and which are symbolic. The "keys" and the "bottomless pit" you mention are describing things in the spirit realm which differ from the earthly realm we live in but are just as real. Angelic beings are able to materialize in our physical realm and be seen by people (like the angels that rescued Lot from Sodom) and disappear again. Jesus was able to suddenly appear in rooms in his resurrection body and then vanish. In 2 Kings 2:11 Elijah was taken to heaven in a "chariot of fire" and "horses of fire". These things literally exist in the spirit realm. It is a different dimension than ours but it can affect people and things in our physical earthly realm, like the death angel that killed the all the firstborn of Egypt at the first Passover.
Christians of the Church Age, ("the body of Christ") are always spiritually connected to Jesus Christ like any body is connected to its head. ( Ephes. 2:6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:") Saved Christians in the Chrch Age are kept FROM the great Tribulation ( “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” Rev.3:10 )
The Tribulation is a judgment that comes on the entire world. It is the "day of the Lord". It is mentioned by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Zechariah, Malachi. In Isaiah 24 it is described as a time when catastrophic events come upon the whole world that shake very foundations of the earth because of the wickedness. This corresponds to what Jesus described in Matt. 24:29-30. This did not happen in 70 AD.
The saints come “with” Jesus so they must have been resurrected and taken to heaven before the Tribulation and before he returns to earth to reign : (“...Behold, the Lord cometh WITH ten thousands of his saints,” Jude 1:14)
There are two resurrections. The resurrection of the righteous dead of all ages and the resurrection of the wicked dead of all ages. The “first resurrection” is that of the righteous dead which happens in stages beginning with Jesus, “the firstborn from the dead” (Col.1:18)
“But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.” 1 Corinthians 15:23) God's promise is that every person who believes in Jesus will be resurrected whether they become believers in the Church Age, during the Tribulation (like the martyrs under the altar in Rev.6:10) or during Christ's 1000 year reign on earth when people will be born by the people living on the earth who have not yet died when Jesus returns to reign from Jerusalem. The martyrs who died during the Tribulation are resurrected and "live and reign with Christ a thousand years." (Rev.20:6) The wicked dead are raised all at the same time at the very end at the “great white throne” judgment. (Rev. 20:11)
There is an angel which preaches the gospel to the entire world during the Tribulation ( the Day of the Lord”) and people are saved during that time. " Rev. 14:6 “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, “ The names of all people one who believe in Jesus for salvation are in the “book of life”, regardless of when the era in which they come to faith. No true believers will go into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:15, 21:27).
@@beaulin5628 Yes, I agree with your premise and have no disagreement with some of your application.
Yet in 2 Pe 3, we also see a passage dealing with the timeframe of the end times and final judgement. Peter's explanation of why things seemed to be taking so long (even way back then) was that 1000 years is like a day. So let's say Christ returns within a week, that might mean we still have 4000-5000 years left until the church age completes. Repetition of a symbol or motif doesn't make it more literal, and using the number 1000 for a extremely large number in the human scale isn't uncommon in scripture. Rev 20, which also deals with the timing of the final judgement, fits Peter's framing just fine with the need to force a conflict between the two of them.
Similarly with the biblical usage of death and life, it is clear from the very first time death enters the world that physical death is not what is in view and if anything, is a side effect of spiritual death, which is the real death scripture focuses on. Scripture likewise describes spiritual life / regeneration as a new life, we are a new creation, given a heart of flesh to replace a dead heart of stone, and even being raised to life in Christ. There is no reason to assume Rev 20 has anything else in mind. The first death is all those who are in sin, and the first resurrection is all those God regenerates and calls to him. The second death is the lake of fire and the second resurrection, which all those who experience the first resurrection will experience, is glorification where we are finally freed from sin and given bodies like Christ's resurrection body. This way of understanding John harmonizes his teaching with the whole of scripture instead of setting this chapter in sharp contrast with scriptures teaching on these things in other passages.
@@oracleoftroy In 2 Peter 3:8 Peter is explaining that because God dwells in eternity where time does not exist a thousand years can be like "one day" to him. This does not mean that when specific numbers are mentioned in the Bible to us who do live where time exists they are not literal. Daniel understood from reading Jeremiah 29:10 that the Jews would be punished in Babylon for a period of "seventy years" after which God would begin to restore them(Dan.9:2). So he began to fast and pray for this to happen. Specific numbers concerning people and events are used throughout the Bible which are meant literally concerning the Jews, armies, and many things. Jacob had "12 sons". A total of "seventy souls" came out of Jacob by the time Joseph was in Egypt.(Gen 1:5)The Bible makes no sense at all if one assumes all numbers are symbolic, especially if they are repeated many times in one chapter like the "thousand years" in Rev. 20. In the Bible God is communicating important things to people who live in "time".
"Similarly with the biblical usage of death and life, it is clear from the very first time death enters the world that physical death is not what is in view and if anything, is a side effect of spiritual death, which is the real death scripture focuses on." Both apply here. Physical death is the first penalty for spiritual death and is a most traumatic experience for all human beings, so much so that people are desperate to avoid it. Physical death is the beginning of the eternal punishment of the soul for the unsaved.
In the same way the "kingdom of God" began spiritually as an inner kingdom in the hearts of men when Christ was on earth and is progressing to the literal, physical fulfillment when Christ rules on earth from Jerusalem. The Church is an interim period in which Jesus is saving souls from all nations to be in the fully fulfilled kingdom of God on earth. Satan is most certainly not "bound" from operating on earth right now, and we are not yet in the completed kingdom.
You seem to discount comparing all scriptures on a subject to accurately understand the meaning. When Jesus said, "Thy word is truth" (John 17:17) he was refering to the Old Testament. He also said everything in it will be "fulfilled" ( Matt. 5:18 and many verses). The Old Testament prophets fortold details of the coming "Messiah", the Lord Jesus Christ. This has happened. Also that he will eventually reign on earth from Jerusalem. This is future and will happen. They also prophesy of a coming "day of the Lord" which brings trauma and destruction on the entire earth because of sin. This did not happen in 70 AD. It is also described by John in the book of Revelation. Peter also refers to it in 2 Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
The "new heavens and new earth" happen AFTER this judgment: "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.2 Peter 3:13 " This is the thousand year reign of Christ leading up to when the city of the "holy Jerusalem" descends from heaven and rests upon the earth forever. Rev. 21:10.
@@beaulin5628 Lol at "You seem to discount comparing scripture" in a post dismissing my comparison of scripture. I guess it is (D)different when you do it?
You've decided that in a book full of symbols, and in a chapter full of symbols, that you need the 1000 to be hyper literal, and so can't let similar usage in scripture guide this passage.
Overall, we are both trying to look to the witness of scripture. Obviously we come to different conclusions, but I find it rather distasteful to dismiss out of hand the applicability of Peter's 1000 years then judgement when we see the same timeframe of 1000 years then judgement in Rev, and then you followed by the immediate posturing to claim I'm somehow not comparing all of scripture. And Peter's argument is not based on God being timeless, but rather based on the fullness of his people not yet being brought in. Read the whole chapter. Every last one of his people need to be brought to him before the final judgement. It fits John's usage and it fits postmil. It doesn't fit with the strange unwarranted gaps premil has to insert to make their system work, thus your main reason for discounting it.
Have you looked into how the number 1000 is used? For example, what happens with the 1001 hill in Ps 50? How often does 1000 appear where it literally means 1000 exactly and not a very large number or even infinity in poetic and apocalyptic contexts?
And have you read Rev 20? It doesn't say that Satan is or will be "bound from operating in the world" and so postmil don't believe he is bound in that way. They do believe he is bound specifically from deceiving the nations as the passage actually states. That's yet another thing premil can't just take literally even though they posture and brag about how literal they take things.
Why weren''t all Eschatological views presented clearly? What is Amillenialism then? It wasn't explained. Isn't the word nations in it's original term "ethnos," which means ethnicity or different peoples? The mount of God points to the Lord Jesus. This could mean that at the end of the age, there will be peoples from all nations that willl be saved. However, NOT ALL will be saved, for the Lord knows His elect.
Jesus himself rejected this teaching:
"the road is narrow and FEW will find it!"
Paul also discusses a great falling away...so that's another reason the Christianization of this world doesn't make sense.
@@akadwriter agreed! And we are certainly seeing that happening today
Amen
I don't think that verse does the work you need it to to refute the postmil position. I can push it as extreme as possible and say that zero people will fin the narrow gate on their own, unaided by God by applying Rom 3 "no one seeks God". But salvation isn't in man's hand or based on their ability to find narrow gates, it is God alone who saves, and he is mighty to save. God can save a vast number of people despite all having sinned and all being lost apart from him.
@@oracleoftroy you never refuted what I said. Do you believe Jesus lied, and it will be more than a remnant that finds it?
You emphasized whether we seek or are called; that was not my argument. I was emphasizing "the few!"
Did he say few? And, do you think he was lying?
brother, we can be old earth creationists and still not affirm theistic evolution
So how much stride has the church made in the last 2000 years towards millennial kingdom? In your optimism, because you just condemned pre millennial view as too pessimistic
It went from about 40 Christians and about 0% of the world population to around 3 billion, ~30% of the world population at least nominally proclaiming Christ as their king and savior in 2000 years. That's excellent progress.
Obviously there is still more work to do in preaching the gospel and discipling the nations to spread God's word even further, but scripture doesn't present God's kingdom popping into existence all at once. Rather, it is always portrayed as something that starts out small, like a pebble or bit of leaven or a small mustard seed, and then over time grows and grows and grows until it becomes a mountain that wills the whole earth or the yeast has spread into all the dough or the tree grew and all the birds of the world perch in its branches. We are still in that period of growth, so be bold 8n preaching all of God's word, and he will bring even more to him.
What?? The church is going to bring in the millennial kingdom?? How ?? History of the church and human history defies that. Imperfect man though redeemed cannot bring in perfection pictured in millennium. It has to be supernatural and Christ has to take over by force the kingdoms of this world.
Yes, it is supernatural. The Church is God's supernatural kingdom, with Christ at its head. The weapons of its warfare is the sword that proceeds from the mouth of Christ, the word of God, and its armor truth, righteousness, readiness, faith, and salvation. But we don't need to use force, as we trust in the power of God to change hearts and minds through the foolishness that is the preaching of the gospel.
Don’t listen to this false teaching! The world is getting darker by the hour! Even so Jesus come!
The toughest objection to postmillennialism? Easy; a literal hermeneutic. Still love ya bro.
@royal priest Literal interpretation asserts that a biblical text is to be interpreted according to the “plain meaning” conveyed by its grammatical construction and historical context. The literal meaning is held to correspond to the intention of the authors. This is not to imply that every passage of Scripture should be interpreted literally, but rather the plain meaning be accepted as truth.
Even the "literalist" interprets some passages as symbolic as it is impossible to interpret all passages literally without contradiction. Apocalyptic books such as revelation are quite logical places to expect symbolism.
But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.
- Jeremiah 30:9
So are we literally expecting David to be raised up for all to serve as King? Or did this not clearly symbolise our Lord Jesus?
The entire Bible is full of things that refute a “literal hermeneutic.”
Fundamentalist KJV only churches subscribe to that, but reformed Christians, and church history itself has not subscribed to literalism.
Narratives, (Genesis, Numbers, Job) are to be taken literally, as obvious from their context, but prophetic scripture, apocalyptic scripture and parables, etc, are OFTEN not to be take literally at all.
How about any hermeneutic.
unless Christ is here already litterally
Yup: Matt 28: 18ff - *All* authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, *I am with you always, to the end of the age.*
The thing about it is Revelation 20 never says the thousand years could mean something else or that it was an analogy or metaphor or anything else. It says literally 'When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, (Revelation 20:7, NASB)' and 'and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. (Revelation 20:3, NASB)' It also says there that when we are in this period the devil will not deceive the nations any longer. That leaves room for 0 percent deception. Take a look around right now and you'll see people being deceived by the devil all over the place.
Dispensationalist non-believer
The hardest thing for a Post Trib and any futurist is that all scripture was fulfilled in the first century. Every time indicator in scripture lands in their generation. They knew He was returning in their time frame because all the letters point this out. Jesus was not returning as a Son of man again. Without observation (Luke 17:20-22). Yes the 1000 year reign is not a literal number. The number 1000 is not literal in scripture. It’s the time period of the Apostles (27-67AD).
25:07 congratulations you’ve strawmaned other positions so badly I’m having a hard time taking you seriously
Click bait title just like the world does to get attention.
D
Fact that not all Nations eill become Christian nations in their history is evident. This doesn't mean the great commision failed. The only way the GC failed is Certain Nations never had Christians and churches in them. That is the manifestation of the worshippers of Christ in the Nations by the gospel and not Nations yielded to God's law . So let's be careful in our statements. China is not a Christian nation yet there are many Christians , does it mean the GC has failed? Nope, it shows the success of the great commision causing every nation to have a wheat and Tares reality with opposition between the seed of the woman and serpent going on.
This guy needs a man bun !!
John Baptist was called greatest born of woman but least to least at least knew Christ is in man, John like you looked outside himself before waking by revelation inside you. Christ isn't coming back it wasn't male or female in Spirit only in man not a person you wait for your smart for flesh and blood but like John you look outside.