I used to work on Hawkers in the 90's. They are built really tough. The engineers have used some methods used in fighter jets when designing the aircraft. One of them is most of the screw head are slotted roundheads to provide more strength. Also they have skids under the wings and fuselage and they are referred to as "auxiliary landing gear." Me and another aircraft mechanic would joke at the "over engineering" but after watching how the aircraft stayed intact I changed my mind!
Thanks for the insights. I've never seen an aircraft crash land that violently and not turn into a fireball. As someone noted, this was partly because the wing hit cement and not dirt, but even so, I think very few other planes would have not blown up unless they had dumped fuel beforehand. The fuselage likewise seemed to have very minimal damage. That's indeed one hell of a tough bird.
I worked at Hawker Beechcraft as a CFD engineer. I spent several hours walking around the assembly floor for these 800s. They are very well built. I am glad to hear the pilot is OK. Hawker Beechcraft went bankrupt in 2010. Then the assets were purchased by textron Cessna division. The Hawker 800 is nonger being manufactured.
Wow, what a shame. I thought for sure watching the video that the plane was going to explode in a massive fireaball. I couldn't believe my eyes, how well this plane stayed together after such a violent impact. No doubt that this plane was extremely well made in terms of being able to take some serious damage. Even military aircraft rarely survive such crashes without exploding into a fireball. Maybe the USAF might start looking into this design for light transport aircraft and get this model produced again because this is one TOUGH bird worthy of the rigors of military and combat environments I'm sure with some updates.
The Hawkers at Beechcraft we’re carbon fiber composite. One was landed gear up and just had paint scratches. Extremely strong aircraft that are cutting edge. Cost prohibitive and now discontinued. Closest thing are the new Latitude and longitude.
That loss of engine control after stopping is a problem, but that's a tough airplane. Just 10+ knots could have been the difference between that and a normal landing. You really have to know your ride. I'm glad they could walk away. Did you see the hours those two pilots have? Those guys have been flying a long time.
@@MonkPetite Not all the time. Had a Rolls Royce that didn’t want to shut down. Pulled fire handles. We did everything to get the engine shut down and nothing worked. Even cramming 10,000 gallons a minute of water and ARF into it.
@@michaelz6870 The report from Operations wasn’t clear to me on the radio - the “can’t” was indistinct. So, the request from the tower and clarification helped.
@@michaelz6870 you ever seen a private jet unintentionally turn into a boat? Yeah that's in youtube, forgot the name but the plane was still running while floating in the water.
I'm going to guess that because the initial contact with the ground was concrete, that helped. If it hit dirt, maybe the tip of the wing would have dug in and that would have caused much more resistance and damage, possibly rupturing the gas tanks in the wing. The concrete allowed the wing to scrape as it hit instead of digging in. We know it hit concrete first by the sparks.
@@furyofbongos Good point. Even so however, most planes still would have fallen to pieces with such a violent impact, yet this plane only suffered minimal damage. That's super impressive.
With an active emergency in progress why TF are people calling the tower to ask stupid questions? I get that the pilot wants to take off, but the controller is not going to have any idea how long the airport might stay closed. Likely it'll be a few hours at least, if not the rest if the day. Stay off the air and let them use the radio for the emergency. Taxi back to the ramp, kick back and relax. You're not going anywhere. If you ask nicely, perhaps the FBO might agree to give you a call when the airport reopens. Considering the weather, and the fact that a plane has just crashed, it's possible, even likely that the crash might have been caused by icing. In that case, I would consider canceling the flight completely and waiting for the weather to get better. If you need to get there, rent a car. When I was a kid, 12 or 13, we were down in El Monty for Christmas. When it came time to go home the weather was really bad. Dad decided to drive home, so we borrowed his uncle's van and we drove home. When he went to the airport to arrange for the plane to be stored for a week, he met a pair of brothers. A doctor and a lawyer were there getting ready to fly their Bonanza home to the South Bay Area. We were in the North bay so dad talked them into riding home with us. We are headed up I-5, the wind was trying to push the van off the road and the sky looked damn scary to me. One of the brother's looked out and said, "I think we could have made it." I didn't say anything, but I remember thinking that was one of the most stupid things I'd ever heard an adult say. Dad asked them, "Would you be willing to bet your life on that?" I'm sure dad saved those guys from a Darwin Award that day. "I think I can make it." just isn't good enough for aviation. You shouldn't go unless you are sure you can make it. Because if you only think you can make it, if you are wrong, you die. You are literally betting your life on that "I think"
Eric, maybe you are sitting on the ramp with your head down doing some planning and have no idea what’s going on as you would not have tower frequency up. One pilot actually asked nicely once he understands some of what is going on. But it would be hard to have the full picture in real time.
@@chrisvickers1262 Yeah I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. They probably didn't see the crash and switched to the freq after the initial coordination with fire/ops and there was a lull in radio chatter so they likely had no idea.
The local air traffic controllers at the airport are the exact person that will let the pilots know if and when the airport will be shutdown or re-open 🤦🏻♂️ Their job is to manage the traffic in/out and on the ground at the airport. If the ATC wants pilot to stay off the radios they will tell the pilots to do exactly that themselves.
You're inside the FBO farting, stealing newspapers, energy bars, Wintergreen Lifesavers and hitting on the hottie behind the counter while this happens. There is no "There is currently an emergency in progress so don't call ATC" klaxon going off or even installed on the field. Then you wander out to 'Songbird' and flip on the avionics master and copy the ATIS. Then you call for your clearance and or ground. That's when you find out. Amazingly, It's no more complicated than that.
ATC / Tower “Alright for the umpteenth time everyone … What part of THE AIRPORT IS CLOSED do you idiots NOT understand !?!?” *Tower man rips headset off and hurls it across the room, co-workers gasping in shock*
The ATC recording is a document of our times and society. "What about me? When can I leave? Can I have my IFR now? When will you open up again?". All while others on the same frequency may be struggling for their life or somebody elses life at this very moment. I hope everybody involved got a pause in their oh-so-busy schedule to self-reflect for a moment.
When it's them in trouble then they think it should be all about having rescue move double time. It's all modern-day selfish entitlement and greed... ruining the USA more everyday.
Everybody's so entitled. They're like children. I think literal kindergartners have more patience. It's like if a parent crashed the car and the kid in the back seat is still sitting there asking 'Are we there yet? Are we there yet?'
I worked for a regional carrier at a regional airport --KVCT. The active runways were12L and 12R. One two left is over 9,100 feet and 12R is about 4,600 feet. Single engine private plane took off from 12R, got about a hundred feet up and nosed straight down into the grassy area between the runway and the ramp. The airport closed 12R because of emergency equipment using the runway to reach the crash site but operations continued on 12L. Best thing about the airport at the time was it did not have an active tower. The airport management knew that there was a perfectly good runway that could be used and there was NO REASON to shut down all of the airport operations because of an accident near a different runway. If that incident happened today WITH the tower in operation, the airport would probably have been closed.
It didn't hit small GA aircraft until it had already been on other planes. The Hawker had it for years. I hated that it had the limitation of once you TKS tank ran dry you were up the creek. I much preferred hot wings
The first Hawkers had Viper engines on it. The Viper didn't have enough power for bleed air heat on the wings...So they ran TKS on the wings and never changed it.
See the flash of flame as the right wing hits the ground, must have spilled some gas lit by sparking on the runway, but close-up of the wing shows it just bent, rather than severed.
@@MrGrace god helped them but they had severe Icing at flight level 150. They made an emergency decent to a avoid icing, but it made controlling the aircraft extremely difficult.
Humboldt County doesn’t have any video associated with the incident. I haven’t tried the Coast Guard, but they might. I’ll give it a shot. Knowing FOIA, I recommend checking back for an answer - or at least an update - in a couple of years. Beyond the normal extended delays of the federal Freedom of Information Act, the Coast Guard has a weird frame of reference for time. In response to a request that I made in January of this year, I negotiated with an agency representative that I would accept a variety of potentially unnecessary redactions in order to greatly simplify the review needed. In exchange, the Coast Guard would release the records to me “immediately.” That’s in writing. I accepted, and I also accepted their fee estimate - despite it making little sense. All of that happened in January. I am still waiting for that “immediate” release of records… (My oldest open Coast Guard FOIA request is from 2018. Two, actually.)
@@WhatYouHaventSeen Wow. I'm not surprised at how much red tape there is though. I looked up the incident, and got misled a few times because there have been no fewer than 4 crashes of HH-65's flown out of Humboldt Bay in the last 30 years. Took me a little bit to find the correct one.
TKS work fine until you fly deep sub zero temp .. this is where ice is dry. So instabiel fluid of TKS is not known. The only disadvantage is if you climb true heavy ice and come on top with loads of alcohol in the wings left .. at some point this will extrude out of the porous wing and become a airflow disruptive.. not fun if your cruising at fl380 and the whole plane gives you a shake or two .. there andere it’s fine. TKS is de ice but need pre charge.. a pump runs a short time for full capacity to fill up the wing and clear any water if presented then it rund for several minutes on 3/4 of the pump speed. If aircraft are parked for long time water ingestion is possible at the wing leading edge. This must be cleared before take off. And so the crew must wind that egg timer before the nose over in bad weather.. At heavy ice the warning of the ice detector will call constantly.. you must keep that tks pump on by rewind of the timer .
Hearing Ground getting frustrated by the departing aircraft asking how long the delay would be reminds me of my truck driving days. Every car driver around would see me on my CB during accident back ups and ask how long the delay would be. "How should I know? Go ask the medevac pilot how long he plans to stay on the interstate." Or, "However long it takes to scrape the carcasses off the road." When you see the helicopter(s) landing, just plan on having time for a long picnic and maybe a nap.
You’d be surprised how many hawkers you can walk up to and turn on the TKS system and the wings won’t be getting the fluid. It’s to be primed before every flight even if your departing Vegas and it’s 40c out Without keeping the lines primed with fluid they become brittle and break, once they loose their prime it takes 30 minutes or longer to actually prime the system if you’re lucky. A small percentage of pilots actually turn the system on check the wings to see if it’s weeping the fluid before each flight It’s an anti ice, you need to have it on long before entering ice. Once you have ice it can’t seep through and coat the wing and your SOL however a hawker will fly with a log ice on it
I ran it once a day and made sure to leave a full outline on the ramp. A system that was never run was guaranteed to never work when you needed it most.
Poor manufacturer guidance. Tolerances are waaaay too tight if a 7% margin on ref induce a landing stall. They should say to add AT LEAST 10% for icing conditions. I’m flying citation’s now but noted if I get into a Hawker one day.
Really🙄, he stalled it. It stalled. The ice had the biggest role im sure. Ice on the leading edges dramatically reduces performance therefore increasing the stall speed.
@@outwiththem BS on your BS. You can't make that determination on 3 seconds of lousy video. How much of a margin does VRef provide over stall? How much energy you're carrying completely changes the equation. ATP. 9 Types.
@@lbowsk I can see he raised nose too early and stalled it. If you cannot see that, change your glasses. Retired aerobatics and EFATO CFI. 4 kinds of EFATO i taught ON RUNWAY, not just high up there only. ATP too. Lets see your video doing aerobatics and teaching 4 kinds of EFATO 20 years ago ON RUNWAY and compare it with mine. Waiting.
Ops guy calls the tower to report the crash. The pictures show it in very close proximity to the tower. How could they not have a clue it crashed right underneath them?
DET is a smaller airport. The tower controller was clearly performing ground control and ATC clearance duties, as well. Can't always be looking out the windows.
Wowwww .. this pilot definitely has received a second chance. Make it count, son. (No disrespect intended; I’m a great-grandmother so I get to say “son” as a term of true endearment. For those still not convinced, amended to ‘make it count, sir.’)
The ATC speaking to the pilot asking to depart needed to be much more clear about the situation. The guy simply wanted to depart and didn't know what was happening and the ATC mumbled the most important message the the airport was closed and then got an attitude when he kept inquiring. ATC serves the pilots, not the other way around. Get clear and concise information to the pilots professionally.
I don't like TKS. Boots aren't great, but they'll run all day. None of this all or none protection I spent a long time flying caravans through the thick of winter wx around the midwest and great lakes. Boots almost never let me down even after 2, 3 hours of continuous icing
@@chloratum Actually it worked quite well on the Hawker's. Flew them for over a year and never had a problem with it. I will say it made me nervous at times due to the fact you could run out of fluid where you never seemed to run out of bleed air heat
@@chloratum You don't know what you're talking about. I flew Hawkers for years and I'll take TKS over boots any day of the week on any airplane equipped with it. Never ran out of fluid. Of course, hot wings are the best, but they do rob you of power when you might need it.
There was presumably too much structural damage for it to be economically viable to repair. It was an old aircraft, looks like the registration belongs to an aircraft salvage/parts company now (Dodson International Parts). I guess that should tell you everything you need to know.
Anything is repairable if you're willing to throw enough money at it. But looking at that wing, I bet the main spar is toast and with the age of the plane, I guess that means it's scrap
They had severe Icing at flight level 150. Then made an emergency decent to a avoid icing, but it made controlling the aircraft extremely difficult. Upon approach rhime icing was present and affected the aircraft aerodynamically, therefore making the landing nearly impossible
@@kyleholt3733 thanks for the clarification. It looked odd the wing would drop suddenly unless it stalled. Rime ice will do it. That's more common on slower aircraft. Must of been a hell of an icing situation.
He forgot to turn on the egg timer on time.. that triggers the TKS anti ice system . Also he flown the calculated landing speed but je fly a bit faster called V REF + wat ever speed. Land with positive speed. Engines can be cut of two ways, fuel cut of cocks or the fire handels. how difficult can it be to do it right. I think the crew is not up to speeding this typ of jet .
You have used my photo without permission. Plus cutting off the copyright that I had posted at the bottom. Please edit this post removing that photo at six minutes and 37 seconds
I understand it's a stressful situation but the tower and ground controller seemed pretty rude to the other pilots who were just trying to inquire about the situation.
@@elcidS15 wasn’t a stupid question. As pilots/flight instructors, they teach us about professionalism and atc controllers have the same expected out of them
@@jamesg5615 Is it professional to ask a question you know you’re going to get a negative answer to? What would it take for you to not ask the question? The plane having exploded? I would just ask the airport management to inform me when the airport opens. Because obviously the tower has no clue when that will be.
The tower/ground was totally rude and disrespectful to the other pilot trying to get information. He was not helpful one bit! FAA should look into him as well. Glad everyone was OK!
Dude they were SO lucky they didn't burst into flame. Another Lear Jet bites it because these pilots aren't trained to keep vref + 15 or even 20, 10 is not enough. There's been 3 accidents involving these jets just in the past few months because of these guys not keeping their speed up because of shotty training especially in icing conditions or on circling approaches, the recent one in San Diego of the med flight crew and the Trukee crash really stand out.These jets like to fall out of the sky when your sketchy on your vref speed and the will kill you faster than you can say "airspeed" if your not on top of it, it's simple as that.
right! Every small business jet is a LearJet. Every small propeller driven airplane is a Piper Cub, no matter who actually made it or what it really is?
Adding 10-15% to your approach speed gives you a new problem. The longer landing distance now needed may exceed the airplane's ability to stop before the end of the runway once you're able to bleed that extra speed back off and actually get it on the ground. These pilots new they had ice, and that BAE calls for adding the 10-15% in icing. They might have been counting on too much luck here.
You must not possess a Hawker Type Rating. The TKS system is about the ONLY weakness on the jet, in my view. And if properly managed is just fine. Is it as good as a hot wing? No. But a hot wing was not an option when the jet was developed.
Pilot should be grounded and forced to take stall lessons. If you look close and pause, then scan thru images from point it is first seen. you see what really happened. incorrect pilot reactions to a stall, causing a secondary stall. . . The pilot is not using controls he should use, and he is using the ones he should not use. He comes in . The right wing slowly drops a little. trying to stall, possibly the ice , but not likely. the density altitude was very low. Air was thick and heavy. . as the wing begins to fall Ground effect was in his favor as it was preventing it and the wing starts to come up a little. There is no rudder deflection, when the wing drops at all. pilot is not using proper controls you would expect in a stall. None at all. there is no aileron deflection, either none at all. When the wing drops it starts to come back up from ground effect just a tad..Then as the wing start coming up , you can see the pilot then uses only elevator, which is the worst thing to do.. as soon as he does the wing drop violently, in the secondary stall. Game over. .
Most of what you wrote is pure crap. You say the pilot 'comes in hot' which is to say, 'fast', yet the wing stalls, which is to say it was flying too slowly, which clearly it was. If only he had come in 'hotter', he wouldn't have stalled. And ground effect is not the reason the aircraft starting rolling left. The Hawker is equipped with spoilerons which affect roll by decreasing lift, in this case the left wing (away from the camera), to cause the aircraft to roll left. As far as any chance of recovering from the stall, the engines cannot spool up fast enough this close to impact. The throttles were brought back towards idle when he crossed the runway threshold. Pilot obviously thought he had enough speed. Pilot was obviously wrong. No decision he made after retarding the power levers could have changed the outcome.
@@glasshalfempty887 Everything I said was right on. The pilot should be grounded . end of story. You must be some kind of reject or something. Where do you see I said he came in hot? show me. I didn't read any of what you wrote because the second you fabricated things I dont bother to look any more. Reject
@@josephkaminski1857 Reject? Joe, I'll put my Commercial Instrument Multi-engine Land and CFI ratings up against your Flight Simulator time all day. And you do know where we all can see that you edited out the word 'hot', right? Genius.
Not to beat a dead -horse- pilot or anything, but... I feel like every Hawker 800 crash video I've ever seen - with a single exception - has been super tame. Sure feels like all these other examples just makes the already-ludicrous crew decisions of the ill-fated ECJ81 even worse. Even if they hadn't corrected procedures in time, which NTSB emphatically claims they could have, and still ended up overshooting at the speed they were stuck with...that sucker probably would have fared OK. I've never seen another plane make/model stay together as consistently as these things do.
If you are going to crash an airplane the Hawker is the one to be in. Built tough.
Ask Jack Roush, who famously crashed his at Oshkosh.
I used to work on Hawkers in the 90's. They are built really tough. The engineers have used some methods used in fighter jets when designing the aircraft. One of them is most of the screw head are slotted roundheads to provide more strength. Also they have skids under the wings and fuselage and they are referred to as "auxiliary landing gear." Me and another aircraft mechanic would joke at the "over engineering" but after watching how the aircraft stayed intact I changed my mind!
Thanks for the insights. I've never seen an aircraft crash land that violently and not turn into a fireball. As someone noted, this was partly because the wing hit cement and not dirt, but even so, I think very few other planes would have not blown up unless they had dumped fuel beforehand. The fuselage likewise seemed to have very minimal damage. That's indeed one hell of a tough bird.
2:19: "Is the pilot the only one on board?"
"He hasn't said - he's going through a lot of stuff right now. I'll find out."
That could had been ALOT worse, glad everyone was good!
Could have*
@@justinq8345 they both work, there is nothing wrong with that grammer....👍 And besides, it's not could have with a star (*)😁👍
@@michaeljo9820 You are wrong. "could had" is incorrect grammar. And besides, "alot" is not a word.
@@michaeljo9820 no, sorry dude. 'Could had' is incorrect grammar
*Coulds a' been
I worked at Hawker Beechcraft as a CFD engineer. I spent several hours walking around the assembly floor for these 800s. They are very well built. I am glad to hear the pilot is OK. Hawker Beechcraft went bankrupt in 2010. Then the assets were purchased by textron Cessna division. The Hawker 800 is nonger being manufactured.
what a shame. From what I see and from what you write it was a damn fine aircraft!
@@jpetes9046 From the looks of it, that should buff right out.
Wow, what a shame. I thought for sure watching the video that the plane was going to explode in a massive fireaball. I couldn't believe my eyes, how well this plane stayed together after such a violent impact. No doubt that this plane was extremely well made in terms of being able to take some serious damage. Even military aircraft rarely survive such crashes without exploding into a fireball. Maybe the USAF might start looking into this design for light transport aircraft and get this model produced again because this is one TOUGH bird worthy of the rigors of military and combat environments I'm sure with some updates.
That plane hit hard AF! I can't believe it stayed together.
The Hawkers at Beechcraft we’re carbon fiber composite. One was landed gear up and just had paint scratches. Extremely strong aircraft that are cutting edge. Cost prohibitive and now discontinued. Closest thing are the new Latitude and longitude.
That loss of engine control after stopping is a problem, but that's a tough airplane. Just 10+ knots could have been the difference between that and a normal landing. You really have to know your ride. I'm glad they could walk away. Did you see the hours those two pilots have? Those guys have been flying a long time.
The engine fuel cut of or cable driven and will work otherwise turn the fire buttons .. it will stop.
These pilots are stupid
@@MonkPetite Not all the time.
Had a Rolls Royce that didn’t want to shut down. Pulled fire handles. We did everything to get the engine shut down and nothing worked. Even cramming 10,000 gallons a minute of water and ARF into it.
LoL - I love the towers response "you say they are unable to shut the engine down...."
@@michaelz6870 The report from Operations wasn’t clear to me on the radio - the “can’t” was indistinct. So, the request from the tower and clarification helped.
@@michaelz6870 you ever seen a private jet unintentionally turn into a boat? Yeah that's in youtube, forgot the name but the plane was still running while floating in the water.
Ordinarily a wing impact like that means a fire due to the fuel in it. Seems to be a strongly built plane.
I'm going to guess that because the initial contact with the ground was concrete, that helped. If it hit dirt, maybe the tip of the wing would have dug in and that would have caused much more resistance and damage, possibly rupturing the gas tanks in the wing. The concrete allowed the wing to scrape as it hit instead of digging in. We know it hit concrete first by the sparks.
@@furyofbongos Good point. Even so however, most planes still would have fallen to pieces with such a violent impact, yet this plane only suffered minimal damage. That's super impressive.
With an active emergency in progress why TF are people calling the tower to ask stupid questions?
I get that the pilot wants to take off, but the controller is not going to have any idea how long the airport might stay closed. Likely it'll be a few hours at least, if not the rest if the day.
Stay off the air and let them use the radio for the emergency. Taxi back to the ramp, kick back and relax. You're not going anywhere.
If you ask nicely, perhaps the FBO might agree to give you a call when the airport reopens.
Considering the weather, and the fact that a plane has just crashed, it's possible, even likely that the crash might have been caused by icing. In that case, I would consider canceling the flight completely and waiting for the weather to get better. If you need to get there, rent a car.
When I was a kid, 12 or 13, we were down in El Monty for Christmas. When it came time to go home the weather was really bad. Dad decided to drive home, so we borrowed his uncle's van and we drove home.
When he went to the airport to arrange for the plane to be stored for a week, he met a pair of brothers. A doctor and a lawyer were there getting ready to fly their Bonanza home to the South Bay Area. We were in the North bay so dad talked them into riding home with us.
We are headed up I-5, the wind was trying to push the van off the road and the sky looked damn scary to me. One of the brother's looked out and said, "I think we could have made it."
I didn't say anything, but I remember thinking that was one of the most stupid things I'd ever heard an adult say.
Dad asked them, "Would you be willing to bet your life on that?"
I'm sure dad saved those guys from a Darwin Award that day. "I think I can make it." just isn't good enough for aviation. You shouldn't go unless you are sure you can make it. Because if you only think you can make it, if you are wrong, you die. You are literally betting your life on that "I think"
Eric, maybe you are sitting on the ramp with your head down doing some planning and have no idea what’s going on as you would not have tower frequency up. One pilot actually asked nicely once he understands some of what is going on. But it would be hard to have the full picture in real time.
@@chrisvickers1262 Yeah I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. They probably didn't see the crash and switched to the freq after the initial coordination with fire/ops and there was a lull in radio chatter so they likely had no idea.
The local air traffic controllers at the airport are the exact person that will let the pilots know if and when the airport will be shutdown or re-open 🤦🏻♂️
Their job is to manage the traffic in/out and on the ground at the airport.
If the ATC wants pilot to stay off the radios they will tell the pilots to do exactly that themselves.
You're inside the FBO farting, stealing newspapers, energy bars, Wintergreen Lifesavers and hitting on the hottie behind the counter while this happens. There is no "There is currently an emergency in progress so don't call ATC" klaxon going off or even installed on the field. Then you wander out to 'Songbird' and flip on the avionics master and copy the ATIS. Then you call for your clearance and or ground. That's when you find out. Amazingly, It's no more complicated than that.
ATC / Tower “Alright for the umpteenth time everyone … What part of THE AIRPORT IS CLOSED do you idiots NOT understand !?!?” *Tower man rips headset off and hurls it across the room, co-workers gasping in shock*
“Yeah, okay….but do you know when the airport will re-open??”
The ATC recording is a document of our times and society. "What about me? When can I leave? Can I have my IFR now? When will you open up again?". All while others on the same frequency may be struggling for their life or somebody elses life at this very moment. I hope everybody involved got a pause in their oh-so-busy schedule to self-reflect for a moment.
When it's them in trouble then they think it should be all about having rescue move double time. It's all modern-day selfish entitlement and greed... ruining the USA more everyday.
Everybody's so entitled. They're like children. I think literal kindergartners have more patience.
It's like if a parent crashed the car and the kid in the back seat is still sitting there asking 'Are we there yet? Are we there yet?'
I worked for a regional carrier at a regional airport --KVCT. The active runways were12L and 12R. One two left is over 9,100 feet and 12R is about 4,600 feet. Single engine private plane took off from 12R, got about a hundred feet up and nosed straight down into the grassy area between the runway and the ramp. The airport closed 12R because of emergency equipment using the runway to reach the crash site but operations continued on 12L.
Best thing about the airport at the time was it did not have an active tower. The airport management knew that there was a perfectly good runway that could be used and there was NO REASON to shut down all of the airport operations because of an accident near a different runway. If that incident happened today WITH the tower in operation, the airport would probably have been closed.
One of the better advertisements for an airplane I’ve seen…
Surprising that an airplane of this category has TKS instead of bleed air heated leading edges. I thought TKS is for small GA aircraft like cirrus
Even the 900XP with the larger engines still used TKS unfortunately.
It didn't hit small GA aircraft until it had already been on other planes. The Hawker had it for years. I hated that it had the limitation of once you TKS tank ran dry you were up the creek. I much preferred hot wings
The first Hawkers had Viper engines on it. The Viper didn't have enough power for bleed air heat on the wings...So they ran TKS on the wings and never changed it.
That's exactly what it looks like when I forget the last stairstep on my way down.
An airport named after both Coleman Hawkins AND Lester Young. Wow!
so amazing that nobody was hurt!
I'm amazed it stayed together it looked like they were going to break apart for sure.
See the flash of flame as the right wing hits the ground, must have spilled some gas lit by sparking on the runway, but close-up of the wing shows it just bent, rather than severed.
Great jobs on the pilots recovering their jetliner, and thank God for the Angels being there it could have been more disastrous great job captain
that was God. the angels, skill, Jesus, Santa and Tupac, they all helped 😂
@@MrGrace god helped them but they had severe Icing at flight level 150. They made an emergency decent to a avoid icing, but it made controlling the aircraft extremely difficult.
Random question: Do you have a video covering the incident that your channel profile picture is from? I'm curious what the story behind that is.
Humboldt County doesn’t have any video associated with the incident. I haven’t tried the Coast Guard, but they might. I’ll give it a shot. Knowing FOIA, I recommend checking back for an answer - or at least an update - in a couple of years.
Beyond the normal extended delays of the federal Freedom of Information Act, the Coast Guard has a weird frame of reference for time. In response to a request that I made in January of this year, I negotiated with an agency representative that I would accept a variety of potentially unnecessary redactions in order to greatly simplify the review needed. In exchange, the Coast Guard would release the records to me “immediately.” That’s in writing.
I accepted, and I also accepted their fee estimate - despite it making little sense. All of that happened in January. I am still waiting for that “immediate” release of records…
(My oldest open Coast Guard FOIA request is from 2018. Two, actually.)
@@WhatYouHaventSeen Wow. I'm not surprised at how much red tape there is though. I looked up the incident, and got misled a few times because there have been no fewer than 4 crashes of HH-65's flown out of Humboldt Bay in the last 30 years. Took me a little bit to find the correct one.
I assumed TKS was for anti-ice more than De-ice. Can the fluid have the ability to melt existing ice and prevent more buildup?
Nope, the achilles heel of the Hawker. Anti-ice use only.
You are correct, you should turn it on before getting ice. I flew 800A's for a year.
@aadfwspotters2 nope, TKS can only be used as ice protection. Not ice prevention
@@smartycummins2500 you're incorrect. Tks is to prevent the formation of ice.
TKS work fine until you fly deep sub zero temp .. this is where ice is dry.
So instabiel fluid of TKS is not known. The only disadvantage is if you climb true heavy ice and come on top with loads of alcohol in the wings left .. at some point this will extrude out of the porous wing and become a airflow disruptive.. not fun if your cruising at fl380 and the whole plane gives you a shake or two .. there andere it’s fine.
TKS is de ice but need pre charge.. a pump runs a short time for full capacity to fill up the wing and clear any water if presented then it rund for several minutes on 3/4 of the pump speed. If aircraft are parked for long time water ingestion is possible at the wing leading edge. This must be cleared before take off. And so the crew must wind that egg timer before the nose over in bad weather..
At heavy ice the warning of the ice detector will call constantly.. you must keep that tks pump on by rewind of the timer .
Ah memories, landing every morning with freight in the bosses twin commander, taking off every night, all weather delivering freight 😊
Yep.. Only the strong survives night cargo..
That icing on the wings is nothing to play with! It changes aerodynamic properties quickly.
Not sure why I'm not seeing more people talk of that ice.
Hearing Ground getting frustrated by the departing aircraft asking how long the delay would be reminds me of my truck driving days.
Every car driver around would see me on my CB during accident back ups and ask how long the delay would be.
"How should I know? Go ask the medevac pilot how long he plans to stay on the interstate." Or, "However long it takes to scrape the carcasses off the road."
When you see the helicopter(s) landing, just plan on having time for a long picnic and maybe a nap.
You’d be surprised how many hawkers you can walk up to and turn on the TKS system and the wings won’t be getting the fluid. It’s to be primed before every flight even if your departing Vegas and it’s 40c out
Without keeping the lines primed with fluid they become brittle and break, once they loose their prime it takes 30 minutes or longer to actually prime the system if you’re lucky.
A small percentage of pilots actually turn the system on check the wings to see if it’s weeping the fluid before each flight
It’s an anti ice, you need to have it on long before entering ice. Once you have ice it can’t seep through and coat the wing and your SOL
however a hawker will fly with a log ice on it
I ran it once a day and made sure to leave a full outline on the ramp. A system that was never run was guaranteed to never work when you needed it most.
He looks like he is plowing a field. Glad they are ok.
Poor manufacturer guidance. Tolerances are waaaay too tight if a 7% margin on ref induce a landing stall. They should say to add AT LEAST 10% for icing conditions. I’m flying citation’s now but noted if I get into a Hawker one day.
umpire: "he's ouuuutaaa here."
The pilot stalled it, not the ice. 00:13 Look at the nose very high at 70 feet over the runway. Pilot lied.
Really🙄, he stalled it.
It stalled. The ice had the biggest role im sure. Ice on the leading edges dramatically reduces performance therefore increasing the stall speed.
@@aviatordiego4769 Bullshit. Even with no ice, pulling nose up like that at 70 agl will stall it. Im a retired CFI. Y tu?
@@outwiththem BS on your BS. You can't make that determination on 3 seconds of lousy video. How much of a margin does VRef provide over stall? How much energy you're carrying completely changes the equation. ATP. 9 Types.
@@lbowsk I can see he raised nose too early and stalled it. If you cannot see that, change your glasses. Retired aerobatics and EFATO CFI. 4 kinds of EFATO i taught ON RUNWAY, not just high up there only. ATP too. Lets see your video doing aerobatics and teaching 4 kinds of EFATO 20 years ago ON RUNWAY and compare it with mine. Waiting.
The people in the beginning of the video by the parked jet to the far right materialized star trek style
That hawker stayed intact !!!
Thank goodness the ground was there to break the fall.
Ops guy calls the tower to report the crash. The pictures show it in very close proximity to the tower. How could they not have a clue it crashed right underneath them?
DET is a smaller airport. The tower controller was clearly performing ground control and ATC clearance duties, as well. Can't always be looking out the windows.
As Jim Lovell would say, “A successful failure.” Nobody got hurt.
one tough airframe regardless off the cause.
Hawkers are built like tanks :-)
They're lucky to be alive, hope they purchased a lotto ticket soon after.
Very glad everybody was ok, the way that wing struck the runway it could’ve resulted in fatalities.
If a good landing is referred to as "Butter" this would be consider "Mayonnaise"
Wedge of cheese
@@selftrue670 Sour Cream
Butter is smooth this was more like cottage cheese.
Chunky peanut butter
Icing? Glad they all walked away safe
Look at 1:24 and see that ice. Wow! No wonder it dipped like that and crashed.
Future Ryanair pilot.
The we’re so lucky it didn’t cartwheel or catch fire.
Indeed, icing is no joke
Wowwww .. this pilot definitely has received a second chance. Make it count, son. (No disrespect intended; I’m a great-grandmother so I get to say “son” as a term of true endearment. For those still not convinced, amended to ‘make it count, sir.’)
Soft Landing
+32 Silver Lions
+26 Research Points
Glad they made it out
The ATC speaking to the pilot asking to depart needed to be much more clear about the situation. The guy simply wanted to depart and didn't know what was happening and the ATC mumbled the most important message the the airport was closed and then got an attitude when he kept inquiring. ATC serves the pilots, not the other way around. Get clear and concise information to the pilots professionally.
The pilots made a mistake, didn't follow procedures. Fortunately the Hawker is a tough plane and both pilots survived.
Would you care to elucidate, Orville, or are you just tossing BS around?
@@lbowsk read the report.
One tough jet.
That was truely amazing
Stalled at about 70 feet high and broke the nose gear. You cannot flare high with ice on wings.. Duhh !..
Hawkers are bulletproof!!
Grind into nose slide, oh wait we're not skateboarding.
I said ... "Da airports closed".
That ice is just.....
Hugely entertaining!! It is like watching fuckking paint dry....
Looks like he wanted to go around… and pulled up the nose and stalled before power engines spooled up.
I don't like TKS. Boots aren't great, but they'll run all day. None of this all or none protection
I spent a long time flying caravans through the thick of winter wx around the midwest and great lakes. Boots almost never let me down even after 2, 3 hours of continuous icing
Absolutely. Especially on a jet TKS is a joke...
@@chloratum Actually it worked quite well on the Hawker's. Flew them for over a year and never had a problem with it. I will say it made me nervous at times due to the fact you could run out of fluid where you never seemed to run out of bleed air heat
@@chloratum You don't know what you're talking about. I flew Hawkers for years and I'll take TKS over boots any day of the week on any airplane equipped with it. Never ran out of fluid. Of course, hot wings are the best, but they do rob you of power when you might need it.
I'll be home in a few minutes...err never mind. I'll be late again.
They were definitely lucky.
you gotta land on wheels my dude
Really needs to work on those landings.
Is that repairable? (I'm an aviation newbie)
Yeah it'll buff right out.
There was presumably too much structural damage for it to be economically viable to repair. It was an old aircraft, looks like the registration belongs to an aircraft salvage/parts company now (Dodson International Parts). I guess that should tell you everything you need to know.
My guess is no.
Anything is repairable if you're willing to throw enough money at it. But looking at that wing, I bet the main spar is toast and with the age of the plane, I guess that means it's scrap
With some duct tape, a rubber band and a booger, MacGyver could build you a new one.
That was a close call!! Was it a wing stall or did the pilot inadvertently hit the yoke with his knee?
They had severe Icing at flight level 150. Then made an emergency decent to a avoid icing, but it made controlling the aircraft extremely difficult. Upon approach rhime icing was present and affected the aircraft aerodynamically, therefore making the landing nearly impossible
Many fatalities occur because of icing
@@kyleholt3733 thanks for the clarification. It looked odd the wing would drop suddenly unless it stalled. Rime ice will do it. That's more common on slower aircraft. Must of been a hell of an icing situation.
Those Hawker 800's are tanks.
He forgot to turn on the egg timer on time.. that triggers the TKS anti ice system .
Also he flown the calculated landing speed but je fly a bit faster called V REF + wat ever speed. Land with positive speed.
Engines can be cut of two ways, fuel cut of cocks or the fire handels.
how difficult can it be to do it right. I think the crew is not up to speeding this typ of jet .
Ok... takeaway after seeing icing is faster speed to landing.
Harrison Ford flight school...
That's a bad landing not really a crash.
You should have stayed at the Holiday Inn Express Bro.
dayum
looks like it stalled and dropped a wing
Apenas 10 libras de gelo desestabilizou a aeronave .
You have used my photo without permission. Plus cutting off the copyright that I had posted at the bottom. Please edit this post removing that photo at six minutes and 37 seconds
I understand it's a stressful situation but the tower and ground controller seemed pretty rude to the other pilots who were just trying to inquire about the situation.
Since when has an airport continued operations after a crash on the airport?
@@elcidS15 they don't continue operations but I was just pointing out how the controllers were addressing other pilots on frequency
@@jamesg5615 Because it was a stupid question.
@@elcidS15 wasn’t a stupid question. As pilots/flight instructors, they teach us about professionalism and atc controllers have the same expected out of them
@@jamesg5615 Is it professional to ask a question you know you’re going to get a negative answer to? What would it take for you to not ask the question? The plane having exploded? I would just ask the airport management to inform me when the airport opens. Because obviously the tower has no clue when that will be.
Okay, I can wait,"
It doesn't really matter if you can wait or not. You are not taking off.
🥺👍👍 🇧🇷
Holly crap saludos
Oof.
The tower/ground was totally rude and disrespectful to the other pilot trying to get information. He was not helpful one bit! FAA should look into him as well. Glad everyone was OK!
Pilot error! You gotta have both hands on the wheel bro.
Radical, dude.
Dude they were SO lucky they didn't burst into flame. Another Lear Jet bites it because these pilots aren't trained to keep vref + 15 or even 20, 10 is not enough. There's been 3 accidents involving these jets just in the past few months because of these guys not keeping their speed up because of shotty training especially in icing conditions or on circling approaches, the recent one in San Diego of the med flight crew and the Trukee crash really stand out.These jets like to fall out of the sky when your sketchy on your vref speed and the will kill you faster than you can say "airspeed" if your not on top of it, it's simple as that.
This was a Hawker was it not? The San Diego was a Lear.
you're right... common theme in all of these crashes is airspeed
right! Every small business jet is a LearJet. Every small propeller driven airplane is a Piper Cub, no matter who actually made it or what it really is?
Adding 10-15% to your approach speed gives you a new problem. The longer landing distance now needed may exceed the airplane's ability to stop before the end of the runway once you're able to bleed that extra speed back off and actually get it on the ground. These pilots new they had ice, and that BAE calls for adding the 10-15% in icing. They might have been counting on too much luck here.
How embarrassing. Hawker is a crap jet.
You must not possess a Hawker Type Rating. The TKS system is about the ONLY weakness on the jet, in my view. And if properly managed is just fine. Is it as good as a hot wing? No. But a hot wing was not an option when the jet was developed.
Pilot should be grounded and forced to take stall lessons. If you look close and pause, then scan thru images from point it is first seen. you see what really happened. incorrect pilot reactions to a stall, causing a secondary stall. . . The pilot is not using controls he should use, and he is using the ones he should not use. He comes in . The right wing slowly drops a little. trying to stall, possibly the ice , but not likely. the density altitude was very low. Air was thick and heavy. . as the wing begins to fall Ground effect was in his favor as it was preventing it and the wing starts to come up a little. There is no rudder deflection, when the wing drops at all. pilot is not using proper controls you would expect in a stall. None at all. there is no aileron deflection, either none at all. When the wing drops it starts to come back up from ground effect just a tad..Then as the wing start coming up , you can see the pilot then uses only elevator, which is the worst thing to do.. as soon as he does the wing drop violently, in the secondary stall. Game over. .
Most of what you wrote is pure crap. You say the pilot 'comes in hot' which is to say, 'fast', yet the wing stalls, which is to say it was flying too slowly, which clearly it was. If only he had come in 'hotter', he wouldn't have stalled. And ground effect is not the reason the aircraft starting rolling left. The Hawker is equipped with spoilerons which affect roll by decreasing lift, in this case the left wing (away from the camera), to cause the aircraft to roll left. As far as any chance of recovering from the stall, the engines cannot spool up fast enough this close to impact. The throttles were brought back towards idle when he crossed the runway threshold. Pilot obviously thought he had enough speed. Pilot was obviously wrong. No decision he made after retarding the power levers could have changed the outcome.
@@glasshalfempty887 Everything I said was right on. The pilot should be grounded . end of story. You must be some kind of reject or something. Where do you see I said he came in hot? show me. I didn't read any of what you wrote because the second you fabricated things I dont bother to look any more. Reject
@@josephkaminski1857 on 7th line you state " he comes in hot".
Thank God we have geniuses like you here to help us understand what really happened.
@@josephkaminski1857 Reject? Joe, I'll put my Commercial Instrument Multi-engine Land and CFI ratings up against your Flight Simulator time all day. And you do know where we all can see that you edited out the word 'hot', right? Genius.
Not to beat a dead -horse- pilot or anything, but...
I feel like every Hawker 800 crash video I've ever seen - with a single exception - has been super tame. Sure feels like all these other examples just makes the already-ludicrous crew decisions of the ill-fated ECJ81 even worse. Even if they hadn't corrected procedures in time, which NTSB emphatically claims they could have, and still ended up overshooting at the speed they were stuck with...that sucker probably would have fared OK.
I've never seen another plane make/model stay together as consistently as these things do.