USS Scorpion SUBLOSS SUBSUNK
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- Опубликовано: 10 июл 2024
- The USS Scorpion (SSN-589) was a Skipjack-class nuclear submarine of the United States Navy that tragically sank on May 22, 1968, with the loss of all 99 crew members. The submarine was returning to its home port in Norfolk, Virginia, after a deployment in the Mediterranean. The exact cause of the sinking remains uncertain, though theories range from an internal explosion to mechanical failure or involvement in Cold War espionage activities. The wreckage was discovered in October 1968 at a depth of 9,800 feet in the Atlantic Ocean. The loss of the Scorpion remains one of the most mysterious and somber incidents in U.S. naval history.
The term "SUBLOSS" in the context of the U.S. Navy refers to the catastrophic loss of a submarine, typically involving the sinking and destruction of the vessel, often with significant loss of life.
The term "SUBSUNK" in the U.S. Navy refers to the confirmed sinking of a submarine. It is a formal designation used when a submarine is lost, indicating that it is submerged and has likely suffered catastrophic damage, making recovery and survival of the crew unlikely.
side bar correction: USS Thresher, the other nuke sub the US Navy lost, sank in 1963.
0:00 Scorpion Sub Brief
18:23 Scorpion sunk
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My father in law was assigned to the Scorpion for about two weeks, no one looked at his height when signing his orders as a corpsman. Big Poppa was 6 foot 7 inches tall...
Yeah, they are designed for a 5' 10" figure
I was 6' 1" when I worked on subs. Lotta nicks in my scalp! 😅
I'm 72 and 6' now, maybe that would work?!😅
😂. My 6'4" brother joined the Navy. I said, "Great! You're tall, go for carriers." He said, "I'm going subs." I said that was "less great. At least go boomer." He said nope, " I want fast attack." I just shook my head.
When he came home after his first deployment to the med... boy howdy it took him a while to stand up straight. He had this crazed, almost caged like look in his eyes. 😉
Excellent background info!
Blah blah blah
I strongly recommend Bruce Rule's book "Why the USS Scorpion (SSN589) was lost". It is a reanalysis of the SOSUS data. Very technical but very good.
Came here to say the same thing. Bruce Rule gives a very good analysis of the SOSUS data. He states this is why we lost Scorpion, as a matter of fact and is quite definitive with his analysis.
I remember my Dad coming home and being extremely upset after the Thresher sank. He was on the USS Ethan Allen (SSBN-608) under Captain Paul L. Lacy, Jr., commanding Blue Crew. I think this was a turning point in my Dad's life.
WOW! I could never be a Submariner. Thank you for sharing your Dad's experience. Dolphins are earned.
I was 8 living in base housing in Norfolk. There were a couple of families affected. They stayed about 3 months after she was declared a loss then they moved away. Very sad. You didn’t mention that they have to dive on the wreck to monitor the radiation levels from the reactor indefinitely.
Radiation decays. It’s just a very long time (but then no-one is going to be spending much time there anyway).
@@allangibson8494 I think they check it once a year. Send an ROV down and take a water sample.
They don't dive on it, they lower sensors. Any radioactive fuel that leaks will stay on the bottom because it's heavier and tungsten than anything else, including lead
@@johnryan8533 I realize that. It was figurative. With increased ocean temperatures we may see some different thermal dynamics from the deep sea.
My dad was a spook on the 592 SNOOK. ECM shack full of equipment still secret. Needless to say my bedtime stories were a little different than most kids.
I remember reading that the early theory about the Scorpion turning around was based on incorrect distance calculations from SOSUS. They showed her heading straight back to the US at a steady pace, then something happened, and then it started going exactly 180 degrees from its previous course, eventually imploding. Apparently those early calculations forgot to compensate for how the speed of sound changes with pressure. When re-calculated properly, the ship continued straight towards the US the whole time. The event occurred, and then the Scorpion slowly sank to crush depth (still going straight), and then imploded. This suggests that whatever the event was, it disabled a significant portion of the ship's control team.
A few years ago as part of its routine visits to the wreck, the Navy recovered pieces of the ship's battery that indicated a violent explosion in the battery well. While that isn't enough evidence to determine failed TDU vs hydrogen buildup theory, it certainly is enough to disprove the hot-run torpedo theory and the torpedo tube fire theory. Although those are (now) clearly not the actual cause of the Scorpion's loss, they were real problems back then and the Navy did take action to mitigate those risks.
yeah, nope. Pressure makes some difference, but speed of sound is not all that important in target motion analysis (TMA). It matters for your ability to detect sound, it will not really impact bearings and bearing accuracy.
My dad was stationed on Ascension Island in 67-69, while in the Air Force supporting NSA operations there. He said acoustics systems run by those guys and the navy guys, picked up the sub break up which is why the USN had a known rough area to conduct their search.
Read Blind Man's Bluff.
@@dmikulec Another good one is "The Silent War", by John Piña Craven. you might have to special-order it, but it's worth it
I was on the Scamp, same class, in the Scorpion. We used to sit on the Mk 48 while waiting to eat. I was a nuke ELT. Those boats originally had a 3 bladed prop which made is very fast but very noisy those were replaced with 5 bladed props, slower but less noisy.
I don;t recall having that many problems on the Scamp nut this was years later and maybe they learned a lesson or two.
The only nonrate on board was the cooks helper. He probably operated the trash tube.
As for the Soviet theory. I mention this in an earlier video, a Chief in Vllejo nuke school was spreading the Soviet story. Probably a seatale. But as for the Sosus data, well we all know that the Navy lies and conceals data when it suits them. There was supposedly more photos, kept classified, that show hull damage from an explosion. The released report was also said to be heavily redacted.
I once worked with a guy who was on the Scamp. Smartest engineer I've ever worked with. Really fun guy. I used to bug him with submarine questions and he refused to tell me.
One time I said
"Ed, it was 30 years ago, I'm not gonna tell anyone!" and he said "how do I know your not an agent?"
It was the highest complement he ever gave me. 😂
@@MrNb131 Yeah when you get out they don't tell you that you can tell all even after the boat has been converted to razor blades. Which the Scamp was.
@@AmericanWanderers Yes, at that point in the cold war, I can envision a situation where both governments would agree to cover up an "incident". We know it's happened many times from 1946 through 1991. I would like to see a through examination of the wreck, especially the hull. No conspiracy intended. I would just like to see more proof.
@@hrdley911 Well since it made that nook about cold war subs, an in the San Diego paper, I guess I can talk about it. The second boat I was on, the Pintado, ran head on into a Russian boat right outside Petropavlosk. Both sides covered it up until it showed up in the San Diego paper. Passive sonar does not work that well head on and the recording of the comments inside the sonar room were something to hear.
The report in the paper supposedly torpedoed our very ambitious Caption's hope for a star or two,
@@AmericanWanderers@AmericanWanderers Thanks for the info and your service! 🇺🇸
Former OT3 here. Great content. Sosus Lofar, TASS & Stass are all part of our job. Mid 70’s timeframe.
We had printed displays of both US SSN’s events. I’ve had a look at one in our library. Very erie when viewed in hindsight. Thank you for sharing this. I had no idea that early stass had to be offloaded before porting, and then reloaded before going on patrol. Fascinating, thanks Sir.
Thank you for a balanced, informative video on the USS Scorpion - no tinfoil hat stuff, just a solid presentation. Thank you for your service and thank you for your efforts in all of your videos.
Ultimately the loss can be credited to a period of extremely high operational tempos on both sides of the cold war, leading both sides to loose boats to deferred maintenance and operator error.
Thank you for pointing out the root problem.
Semper Op Tempo did not stop after the 1991 change, friendo.
“Lose”. wtf made this the most commonly misspelled word in the last year???
@@pjhaebeshows you how unimportant spelling really is to communicating.. it changed nothing about getting the point or gist of the comment did it . And the only one that looks like a loser here is you. Why people who are not even qualified to correct spelling and grammar in RUclips comment sections still do so is wild. Talk about having nothing to do. And you’re not qualified at all are you. You pointed out a typo and felt good ? I know you’re aren’t qualified because if you were you wouldn’t waste your time doing it for free for RUclips comments. You don’t know the intricacies of the English language at all do you?? Like i said literally found a typo lmao how embarrassing.
S5W reactors weren't big, it's just that the Skipjack-class was the smallest forward compartment that could be strapped onto a submarine reactor plant/engine room. Built for speed. S8G reactors (Ohio-class) are huge by comparison, but much, much quieter.
i can feel the fbi agent breathing down your neck in this one....
@@hellbringer09 hide
Four subs went down in 1968. The Scorpion, a Russian Golf class SSB, a French SS, and an Israeli (formerly British) SS.
The only information released to the public about this incident came from USN censors. The Navy will tell us what to think about this incident.
One of my college profs was in the USN sub service from the mid 1960s to the early 1970s. He said that there was a rumor amongst USN submarine officers that the Russians sank the Scorpion. I don't know what his source for this information was and I don't know if the rumor was used as a motivational tool in the service.
Two books on this incident, "Blind Man's Bluff" and "Scorpion Down". The latter is based closer to conspiracy, but he sources how he comes to his theory.
The mishap possibilities still sound like the greatest likelihood of occurrence, however comma pause…
If I learned anything from my decade and a half of my own service, my dad’s decade as a nuke launch officer (LGM-25C), his dad’s 28yrs (all as a counter intelligence officer), plus the last 6-8yrs of watching alleged conspiracy theories turn into conspiracy facts, I’ve learned that I trust the government to tell me the truth even less than I did before.
Great video. Thank you. 1968 was a rough year for submariners
K129
great hearing about early beam-forming tech its amazing what was done without modern microelectronics
Analogous to phased array synthetic aperture radar I suppose.
May their souls rest in peace
Blind mans bluff is a good read that first showed some insight on what went on behind the scenes with the loss of the Scorpion. But "The Silent War" by John Pina Craven is a must read which supplements Blind Mans Bluff.
A couple of thoughts: The lead-acid battery (Guppy-1 Mod c) evolves hydrogen during normal discharge as well as during a charging evolution. That H2 is removed from the atmosphere via the CO/H2 burner, which converts CO into CO2 and converts H2 into H2O via a catalyst. The H2O (water) drains into the AMR (Aux. Machinery Room) bilge and is eventually pumped overboard. The CO2 is captured in the CO2 Scrubber and pumped overboard.
Also, though the loss of the Scorpion occurred nearly 8 years after Thresher, SUBSAFE had not been fully implemented in the fleet and boats like the Scorpion, built before Thresher were not built to the SUBSAFE standard and had yet to be retrofitted in a major yard-period.
I was a new Torpedoman on a 637 class boat doing PMS on a Mk-37 when I was told to stop as it could lead to hot run…It was one of the first lessons I learned onboard…
Always loved the sub briefs. Keep them coming
I really appreciate your sub-talk. It is a secretive world which intrigues me a lot, but hard to get basic insight into. Access to this world has improved somewhat, like your videoes and also some words of the this guy named Craven or something like that. He obviously was well seasoned in this kind of warfare too. So thank you for informing us. Let's hope that you don't reveal anything classified by accident. :)
You're thinking of John Piña Craven
@@PeterDavid7KQ201 - Craven applied probabilistic estimates into the search strategy. Now standard approach in search for missing vessels, planes etc.
1 Full Power Hour = Reactor is run at 100% for an hour. So 4 hours at 25% is 1 EFPH (Effective Full Power Hour) When I was in I think they were logging Rx Pwr every 15 minutes, but I suspect it's digitally logged now.
Ha, you think the Navy would pay for fancy digital log-taking equipment when they've already got perfectly good sailors with pens and paper?
There is actually a good reason to manually record log readings. It helps to ensure that the crew is actually monitoring critical system parameters to ensure safe operation and detect any adverse trends such as increasing bearing temperatures, etc.
Good comprehensive coverage Aaron
The rapid course change points to a hot run. Daddy was a Commander and Admiral Rickover's liaison overseeing the search.
The Hot Run theory was floated by John Craven, his math was proven incorrect. There is no evidence of the ship conducting a 180 degree turn.
Made a few patrols on an SSBN in the 70s. This presentation brought back a lot of memories...
Great video, thank you!
Man first Thresher and then scorpion those were rough times for submariners back then!
Ex Submarine sailor here, 1970 to 1976. We pray for their souls and sacrifice. Subsafe keep us safe and appreciate our Navy’s approach to new construction.
Thanks for the content.
Even in early 70s TDUs were a problem on boomers. The valve shop was referred to as the TDU shop on my tender. USS SIMON LAKE HT2
And the messed up part is its the fault of the tdu operator most of the time. Without getting into specifics there is a key step in the procedure before you put cans in that must be done but often it gets forgotten.
If you have a leaky garbage disposal unit, why wouldn't you discharge trash on the surface? To do it at depth seems unwise.
There's 100 men on board. Imagine how much trash a family of five generates on a daily basis and multiply it by 20, then realize that a nuclear sub remains submerged for months at a time, that's a lot of trash to stow in an already cramped container.
With so many hull issues, maybe she just imploded, even if she wasn't at crush depth...
All it would take, was one bad leak from one of those 'penetrations,' and 'boom!
I was on a Norwegian sub, where we (I) once experienced huge leakage from our garbage / sewage shoot. If I had not reacted as quick as I did I would not be typing this today. Managed to secure the inner hatch before the shoot was full of water, as everyone know, you cannot compress water, and as soon as it would have been full, I would not have been able to put the hatch down and lock it. Even with the air went open, it would not have been enough to evacuate the pressure from the incoming water as it was way to small.
The USS Scorpion is one of my "favorite" Cold War mysteries.
Thanks for this Aaron, my Brother used to work for Westinghouse and I never knew what they did
? My Pops served on the USS Sea Poacher with SubRon 12 Key West, could you possibly cover Balao Class life and operation someday?
Thanks for all you do!
Great job!
The mention of the Mk14 reminded me of a video from Drach on the Mk14, which was a disaster for the USN early in WW2. It wasn't retired until the early 1980's.
The TDU, and torpedo tubes and signal ejectors, have mechanical interlocks so you can't have the breach door and muzzle door/hull and backup valves open at the same time.
One thing you can say for certain about the maximum range quoted for any sonar system: It is most assuredly *not* the maximum range it can be effectively used at. Whether it's lying high or low depends on the system and who's quoting, but any unclassified number is going to be lying through its teeth.
I lost a family member to this sub.
Ten inch pipe a hundred feet down, that's a lot of water.
I worked with Bill Shanahan, the designer of the WLR-9 at Norden Systems in Melville, NY a long, long time ago. He was a colorful character but definitely not a madman...
The "beeps" radar, that's great, I love the technical-onomatopoeia terms/acronyms.
Big condolences to the families of Scorpion 589 and Thresher 593. My dad was a plank owner on Snook 592 (John E. Stuart, QM1 at the time).
What do you think of the planned new expedition down to her with high def cameras & lights to get a better view of the wreck site & survey it. And based on your level of knowledge [which is much greater than mine is] do you think that the log book could ever be recovered?
When I was in grade school my best friend had a pome on the wall of his house.
Silent scorpion
All he ever said was it was a memorial for his uncle who was lost in a submarine.
It wasn't until many years later I heard about the loss of the scorpion.
His uncle's last name was Burke
I was stationed at FTC Newport, Rhode Island at the time of this incident. There were all kinds of rumors at the time. At that time I was a Seaman Apprentice.
When the Scorpion left her last overhaul, she was not Sub-Safe certified.
Another great video. You mentioned BPS radars were referred to as "BEEPS", well, the WLR ESM systems were referred to as "WHIRLEY".
on the sornar display slide , the BQR-21 is the one on the left, with the 3 dcrt displays and the one on the right is the BQR-7
The Mk 48 torpedo wasn’t in the fleet till the 1970’s
very good video and your right we don't know. but we do know is it had a lot problems with it
Your explanation of the BQR-21 sonar was not correct. You were describing the BQQ-4 sonar the operator was sitting in front of. It has the wheel. The console to the left of the operator is the BQR -21, it use a joystick to steer the bug to listen and has a waterfall display. Come on Sonarman….
Thames river is pronounced with the "TH". So it isnt pronounced like River Thames in UK where the "H" is silent
Ex-Torpedo Division Officer and Sonar Officer on USS Batfish, SSN-681. The photo with the Mk-37 description is not a Mk-37. The Scorpion could not have carried the Mk-48 torpedo. The Mk-48 was not operational until 1972, four years after the Scorpion was lost. Also, no bow mounted sonars, such as the BQS-4 and BQR-7, could cover 360 degrees due to the fact they cannot hear directly behind the boat. That's why subs routinely maneuver to "clear baffles." Torpedoes is misspelled on the Mk-45 page. The lack of attention to detail is disappointing.
I have a question about the technical brief that you gave at the beginning. You said that these early towed arrays had to be mounted and removed by a tug and they couldn't be retracted by the sub in the field.
What was procedure if the sub had to go evasive? Was the towed array cut, or could it handle top speed maneuvers?
Towed arrays do restrict the maneuverability of the submarine somewhat when deployed. Modern subs can retract the towed array while underway. One thing not mentioned is that subs also have a floating wire antenna that allows them to receive ULF messages while submerged. Funny story about the floating wire. On one boat I was on (which shall remain nameless) we were using the floating wire for the first time. There were specific precautions that had to be taken when going to periscope depth to avoid cutting the cable with the screw. The Captain would ask the OOD about those precautions prior to granting permission to go to periscope depth. One day during a battle stations drill the Captain took the conn. He took the boat to periscope depth and promptly cut the wire. After that we no longer got asked about the precautions.
Was it her own torpedo? Was it a Russian sub? We'll be right back with answers from our favorite radar sub boss.
It was a Soviet sub that sank Scorpion….the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. both agreed to do everything possible to keep this quiet over the years. Because as to acknowledge this was to make the tensions of the Cold War to spiral out of control and the American people would press the government to take a retaliatory strike against Russia using nuclear weapons.
@@anthonylowder6687 A college prof who was a former submarine officer told me, "No one is going to go to war because someone was caught screwing around where they weren't supposed to be."
@@anthonylowder6687 wearing a tin foil hat? Enough with the conspiracy theory.
@@anthonylowder6687 And your proof is...?
Great video, Aaron...👍
Despite the depth the sub is at, I wonder if it would be possible to get a very small ROV inside the hull to examine it from the inside? Or did the hull completely implode?
It's wrecked. The engineering and aft spaces "telescoped" into the amidships sections. That violent action ejected the propeller shaft out the back and sheared off the sail. Maybe something could get into the torpedo room through the open escape trunk. I feel like his earlier video from some years ago went into all this and that he skipped a lot on this remake.
It probably already has happened. We just will never know about it.
Very good video.
The theories of Soviet envolvment run wild. There were books written of these. "Scorpion Down" speaks of the whole sinking incident being recorded by SOSUS, which included a Soviet torpedo sound signature. "All Hands Down" speaks of a Soviet Ka-25 helicopter possibly being involved. This is entertaining reading, albeit dubious.
There was also a novel called "To Kill The Potemkin" which has a fictionalized account of a similar sub that sunk in 1968. There is also the fiction book "Torpedo!" which was pretty good.
used to work with a submariner... from that era... he was very skepticle of the official findings regarding the sinking of the Scorpion...
Thanks Aaron! ;)
Do modern subs have battery backup on the propulsion system? Or are they dead in the water if the reactor shuts or is shut down?
nuclear subs have batteries and diesel generators. they can also for a very short period run on residue heat from the reactor
@@heuhen Thank you 🙂
Are you going to do a vid on the bonefish
A reference alluded to by others is the book, Scorpion Down: Sunk by the Soviets, Buried by the Pentagon, The Untold Story of the Scorpion by Edward Offley.
Most of my knowledge of this comes from Blind Mans Bluff which you seem to have some disagreement with. Can you go into more specifics of why you think that torpedo is the least likely mechanical failure?
Whats fascinating is this hull went to 1530 feet before it collapsed. The technology than shows what is probably possible now. Of course so much is classified for so long
Cheers from AU Chief.⚓
If Scorpion is in the Atlantic, what sub is in the IO (that you had mentioned in a previous video about civilian subs inspecting wrecks earlier this year)?
29:39 One of the other theories I read is that the submarine was being deliberately run to death as part of a program to see how long an attack submarine could last without major drydock repairs. I think it was probably "Running Critical" by Patrick Tyler, a 1986 book on the issues with building the Los Angeles class of submarines.
Great brief! Can you go into more detail about how wire guided submarines work?
Don't you mean Wire Guided Torpedoes.
Wire guided torpedo has a long wire connected back to the sub so it can be steered to its target.
Hey, why no update on the Thresher???
Aaron, did the Navy publish any recommendations based on the accident? Any changes in practice? (at least ones you can talk about)
Wasn't the torpedo room found to be mostly intact, indicating it was flooded befor ithia crush depth
On WW2 boats they had little bug zapper like things to burn off small amounts of hydrogen before they became large amounts of hydrogen to be used when charging torpedoes.
Nuke boats have CO-H2 burners which continuously removed those two gases.
Didn't the towed array give you sonar listening behind the baffles as well as long distance to either side?
Hey, I hope everything‘s going good. You sound a little sad in this video a God bless what you do and I just want you to know I look forward to watching yours and H I Sutons videos. I love your work.
When submarines are lost and there are no survivors, nor any indication as to what caused the loss of the vessel, it becomes a mystery!
Even more so when the vessels sink below their crush depths and implode!
Surely the submarine equivalent of a Ship/Aircraft Flight/Voyage Data Recorder could be fitted to submarines (securely encoded of course).
Then, if a loss occured, a Deep Submergence Vehicle or a Remotely Operated Vehicle could be used to recover the Recorder.
To have detailed data on the submarine prior to and throughout its emergency would be invaluable to Investigation Teams and to bereaved families.
'Always on watch'
Wasn't a dog-leg turn standard procedure for a submarine to maintain situational awareness? My understanding is submarines would routinely make a 180 to check their wake or blindspots in the sensors.
It's called clearing the baffles, Hunt for Red October got the Russian version called a crazy Ivan. A 180 works but isn't usually a good tactical decision.
a sad story
Would love a lecture on digital beam forming
I believe Thresher was lost in 1963.
5:15 -- RE: Tugboat and Diver attach the Towed Array; OMG, I never would have guessed that the towed array didn't start out as a piece of equipment that was somehow contained and deployed by the submarine itself. And yeah, I caught on quick that it also means once connected it stayed deployed until the mission was over or an emergency situation demanded cutting it loose.
Question! Could the OG towed array be detached while at sea by physically cutting it with explosive bolts and a detonator switch? Or would the sub need to deploy a diver to do that, too?
Hey Arron were you trained as a SPACE tech ? I was 0412 BQQ-5 basic maintence.
The last GSSM class. Late '92.
Memories...
I worked with a lady who lost her father on USS Scorpion. She was 7 years old at the time...
Any thought about the mk37 arming device? Could they have been disarming a mk37. It would explained the smaller than larger explosion sounds heard by the navy. If the arming device somehow detonated outside of the torpedo then detonated the torpedo. May have caused the out ward damage seen in the pics. Just wish we knew
I’d like to hear your version of the near loss of USS Chopper.
Weren't the periscope and mast(s) in the raised position as shown on the wreck photos? Wouldn't this suggest they were at PD? If so, and a message could be flashed out very quickly, why no message?
Also, I believe the wreck analysis indicated the batteries were damaged in a way consistent with their explosion.
So, it does sound like a battery issue, but why no SOS message?
Do they try to recover nuclear torpedoes or let them stay?
I wish you did better on the facts especially the sosus data. This should be your bailiwick.
sooo, in light of some of the things like the capt asking for leaks and dry dock etc etc, what was the finding, and lessons from that, ?
Never heard of the TDU scenario, interesting. Had to qualify as a tdu operator while messcooking.
What happens to the reactor? Does the outside pressure keep the reactor from leaking?
❤
I’d LOVE a Brief on the Arrowhead 140 frigate family, including the Absalom Class, the Iver Huitfeldt class, and the Type 31.
How are these so cheep?
Its crazy that almost 60 years later, people are still interested in what happend to scorpion. The u.s. navy has only lost 2 nuke subs EVER.
On the other hand, the russian navy lost enough subs to not really care
No way she carried the Mk 14. I heard about those torpedoes from Drachinifel's channel. Sounds like they were a pain in the ass.
By 1944, the problems with the Mark 14 were solved (at least to the same level as all other torpedoes at the time), and as a result, the 14 and derivative Mark 16 remained the standard US Navy sub--launched anti-surface torpedo until the Mark 48 entered service in 1975, with the last Mark 14s being retired around 1980.
The MK-48 entered service in 1972, I was on the USS Batfish (SSN-681) and we were one of the first boats to get it.