Top 8 Worst D&D Players Ever (Ep. 207)
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- Опубликовано: 27 июн 2024
- Professor DungeonMaster counts down the top worst players ever to play D&D. Then he offers his advice. Can YOUR campaign be saved?
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TWO mentions! I'm going up in the world!
I love that passion in your “just roll!” Video. Brilliant.
What? You’re in two categories?
@@Ektalon He was twice mentioned by name in the video.
@@akephalos2415 It was a joke . . .
@@Ektalon Don't let it get you down. They can't all be slappers. You'll get there, it just takes practice!
You forgot number 0.
That is the thief.
I had a player who was stealing my figures and lied about it.
I gave this guy rides, food, and drink.
He took my crap. 100% scumbag.
I did miss that. That DID happen to me once.
IRL theif is almost the worst player.
bruh....
I feel this one. I'm still on mourning for Elminster, Magister, Raistlin, et al.
Yes. Said scumbag stole all my wizards.
Deathbringer doesn’t have bad players, he has good ones and dead ones 😇
“If you don’t let me I’m not gonna play anymore”
“Alright. I accept your terms.”
“WAIT….”
I had a similar conversation with a controlling girlfriend
do that to many times you dont have a game
@@mawdeeps7691 clearly you underestimate the DM to player ratio out there.
@mawdeeps Yeah, right, if they’re at least a halfway decent DM they can easily get 100+ players willing to replace that one within a day
@@hadeseye2297 exactly a good GM not one who's a little despot seems a lot of those in this chat
To quote Matthew Colville "I'm not trying to kill your character, the monsters are."
From 8 to 4: Wow professor, that's very nice of you.
From 3 to 1: Wow professor, you're a savage, i love it.
2:16 8. The Perpetually Unprepared
3:24 7. The Spotlight Hog
4:46 6. The Mood Killer
6:22 5. The Time Waster
7:45 4. The Micromanager / Control Freak
9:39 3. The Arguer
11:11 2. The Emotional Blackmailer
12:13 1. The Cheater
Rest easy weary traveler, you have done good work here today.
lol
Wow! I've known all these player types:
8. me
7. yeah, I played with him... once
6. yep, played with them, too
5. we still play a regular game
4. I actually work for him
3. he changed his ways, thank goodness
2. didn't change, and we had to break up
1. buried in the back yard under a thick layer of lime... no one misses them.
“If everyone in Fleetwood Mac is replaceable...” One cannot argue with this level of logic... ;)
While band members have been recast, there are those that were and are irreplaceable
Just like some TV shows and movies that are not named for a character or spaceship or such allow the killing off of characters or ships or places to better serve the story are sometimes better.
Didn’t it take two people to replace LB though?
@@Ellebeeby
They didn't replace LB. They got a cuppla guys to almost fill the guitar hole he left.
For the Spotlight Hog and honestly any time a group decides to split up, I like to use some advice I saw from the Angry GM once. It basically came down to switching scenes in media res and leaving the one group on a cliff hanger. Rogue is sneaking up ahead and refusing to come back to the group after a few doors? "You listen at the door and hear the sound of ragged breathing and heavy dragging of chains across a stone floor. As you peer into the crack between the door and the ground your hair stands on end, as you see slow shuffling feet with flesh that is rotting and peeling off the bone, suddenly pick up pace with a purpose and begin ambling in your direction."
And before they have a chance to say anything or react I say "Group number two! As you wait on baited breath for the rogue to return you notice out of the corner of your eye a strange unearthly light bobbing gently down the end of the long shadowed hallway..."
And then continue to switch back and forth between the scenes at dramatic moments until the two can reunite again. This has three benefits. One, it creates dramatic tension which is always fun. Two, the waiting player gets a chance to look over their abilities and spells. They now have plenty of time to plan without having to slow the game down as they decide what to do with this sudden twist. Three, the waiting player is invested. They're itching for it to come back to their turn so they'll be more focused and alert while they wait on tenterhooks, instead of dosing off or daydreaming.
Xp to level 3 once made some interesting points about the "it's what my character would do" excuse. Basically, if what your character would do is ruin the fun for other players, don't make that character.
Correct, don’t give your character a critical flaw that basically imperils anyone else all the time. Once played with someone whose character would always try to save the damsel in distress, no matter the ridiculousness of it. Whole story acts wrapped around this PC’s backstory, while the rest of us were like WTF?!? Yet, him and the GM were friends, so the GM went along with it.
@@kasualkeith1819 There is a balance to be had, between having your character's flaws be so weak that they are irrelivent, to flaws that are so potent that they are problematic at the table.
@@Hallinwar agreed, sometimes the flaw was never purposely picked to mess with the group but the situation just happens to arise (since there are endless possibilities) and it is true for the character to act on it. It’s up to the rest of the party to act on it, have an in character discussion with them or find another solution. The more obviously negative ones like “I’m a kleptomaniac” can actually be handled well if they steal from the party and that character could learn to keep it under control. I think people forget also that you’re a group of hardened mercenaries and coworkers, if you take on a new person in your group and their actions could cost you all your lives (or they are directly negatively impacting the group) then fire them or kill them are options as well.
Idk, it's your table but I never shy away from player conflict. If players make a character that messes with the party ... SO WHAT if you have any experience as a DM you should be able to handle this. I do my best to allow my players to have absolute freedom within the rules.
@@kasualkeith1819what is the problem here? Did the player do this quest completely on their own? If not, I don't see anything to complain about. You all either decided to go along with the quest or to ditch the PC.
Players that think their background makes their character more powerful than level 1 permits. "But I grew up doing it! I studied under masters for years, it's in my backstory."
"Here's my character backstory, Dungeon Master. Please to consider it my plot-armor so I can has instant gratification and wish fulfillment prophesied."
this is why DCC is much better than DnD, the first game is your backstory. You take a whole villiage of zero level peseants out on an adventure, who ever survives, they get to be the player charaters
Yes! I tell my players to keep their backstory down to a sentence or two max.
@@AceSkates A thousand zero level character funnels beats a 1st level character backstory every time!
I've NEVER understood players who try this. Come up with your mechanics FIRST, then write a backstory to explain those mechanics. It's that simple. People who start with backstory first and then try to shoehorn mechanics to describe that will be inevitably disappointed that the dice aren't letting them be like they were in their backstory. Gee, I wonder why?
Hey, hands off of Gollum, man was clearly dedicated to his roleplay
Truly the hero of that whole campaign.
What? The guy was a complete troll! Look at how he turned on the party in the end over loot! "This is what my character would do" he said, "it fits my alignment" he said! The DM had to drop him off the cliff and destroy the legendary magic item to prevent an all-out war at the table!
I see you're also a fan of XP to level 3
They were like "arg die!" and he was like "yeah kill me!" or something like that
@@Mikemetal12 he was really into being the villain
The answer to "where does it say that in the rules" is page 6 of the PHB
was going to say it myself
It's clear back on page 6 now???
@@Robcockulous1 Art page, credits, publishing information page, table of contents, introduction.
@@MonkeyJedi99 lol
#4 - simple solution:
"Oh, so you've had your turn?"
"No, I haven't, I go after Michelle..."
"Oh, no, you spent your turn telling Michelle what spell to cast, so you miss your turn."
That would be minimum at my table. Lose a turn might be for first offense, but second offense is we go outside and have a fist fight.
Seems a bit extreme and a little petty. Personally I'd just ask if they'd want someone to backseat them on their turn, if not I'd ask them to refrain from it with their party members. I don't think anything else would need to be said.
"But Michelle is Perpetually Unprepared and doesn't know what any of her spells do."
I had one player who was all of these... he never went off on his own though. But god it was hard to curve all these behaviors... The tough part... he is a good friend and introduced me to D&D and I felt out of place giving him any criticism on how to play. Solution: I taught him how to DM, and had him run a game. The conversation and his gameplay in my campaigns after really showed how much he grew as a player after being on the other side of the DM screen.
Agreed. A bit of DMing can really shock a player into being a good player.
"Teach a player to play, and you'll always be the forever DM. Teach a player to DM, and you'll create a great player." -- Me.
@@Robcockulous1 lol I can see it now... "Robocockulous once said..." edit: corrected name spelling
@@BokscarTube LOL! It wasn't "ME" who said that, I was only quoting someone who went by the moniker "Me".
You are more patient than I!
If "what your character would do" makes the game worse for everyone, then you made the wrong character. Great video, Professor!
Definitely agree. I've literally never heard the "It's what my character would do" argument ever used to justify some action that benefits literally anyone other than the character themselves.
Yes. My golden rule is: you've chosen to play a game that relies on collaboration, so if your contribution has a negative effect on that then you're making the wrong decision. All else stems from this.
@@JimMonsanto I agree that it's a well used fall back argument for bad play, and I ban that sort of Tomfoolery in session zero, but ... I've also heard it used many a time for a player nerfing just themselves by making their PC choose the "wrong" decision. These are usually the better players though! ("Are you sure you want to accept the drink from the shady character with 17 knives and a reputation as a dodgy apothecary?" Player, ruefully, "Yes, that's what my character would do!" knowing that a poisoning is about to occur).
@@JimMonsanto You only hear it used to justify the bad stuff because it's not necessary in other cases. If it benefits the group, or even if it's playing to an established flaw the character has, no one questions why the person is doing it. It's just roleplaying at that point.
@@JimMonsanto I think... aren’t there any RPGs where you play to play and not play to win?
Back in the nineties, in my regular role-playing group, there were two players who were best friends in real life, but who killed each other's PC every other night of the game. Worse still, the process of building up their new old feuds sometimes takes the whole evening.
After a while I found it so annoying that I came up with the new idea for me to introduce a common background for the PCs. I once demanded that both players' PCs be brothers ... What I got was fratricide. I live and play in a completely different country now, but I've heard that the two of them are still busy killing each other every other Saturday.
The old school books used to start with
The rules contained here are recommendations, Dungeon Masters should alter, remove or add rules to fit their game.
Or some variety of such. I think this specific one is from the 1e monstrous manual.
They all make it clear the dungeon master is the final authority, and can alter the rules as they see fit
Poisoned dagger to the heart… refers to the fourth manual I ever bought as ‘old school’. It was called the Monster Manual for 1e and initially 2e, but was updated to Monstrous Manual for AD&D 2e with all the Devil references scrubbed, and don’t you forget it Sonny 😉 Now get off my lawn
@@kasualkeith1819 I have the original D&D boxed set, both the blue box and the red box, the original PH, DMG, MM, MM2, Fiend Folio, and Dieties and Demigods, plus just about all of the old classic modules, and Fantasy Wargaming. These here young whippersnappers don’t know how it was done in the good ole days. In my day, adventuring into a dungeon actually was as dangerous as our childhood brains thought it would be, with low visibility, and death traps around every corner.
True, as long as the players know what to expect; throwing something at them from left field is crappy GMing.
Something like that appears in almost every D&D product from every edition. Most players - and some GMs - flip past those pages eager to be told what to do.
Once I had player that would decide for everybody like "We go this way" without asking the others. I would just ask the other "what do you guys think?" everytime. Idk why he kept talking for the group without asking for their opinion. :3
That's a DM in disguise.
@@ericburton9509 xD
I do that "in character", but OOC I let the others know that anyone is welcome to discuss or challenge my "self-appointed leader" PC. When players take it seriously, its a problem. When players play along and challenge my PC and have fun with it, it IS fun.
But players who do this without regard for the other players should be challenged "in-character" to see how serious they are.
Not so much "It's what my character would do," but "That's not what my character would do." In fact, I think the only time I become the Arguing Player is if/when the DM has told me that my character says, does or thinks something he wouldn't do. Because to me that crossees a line, so unless my character was charmed or geased or otherwise being manipulated by an enemy NPC, I'm not cool with being backseat-roleplayed. Don't tell me my character is getting drunk if he's a lawful good monk who isn't into wine. (To use just one example.)
That sounds terrible! Even when charms are involved Players need to have the ability to Play their characters! Like, these DMs really need to learn to express what a situation might inspire in a character (fear for example) and then let the Player decide what that mood leads the character to do.
What stinks is that most of my new players recently happen to want to play spell casters. It happened enough that I do not talk about the Spellcasters because the new player would become a spell bot for the players that understand the rules. I don't talk about Spellcaster classes unless the other player really wants to use one and mention it first.
I dislike it as a Gamemaster. When the fun is trial and error.
I only trust my closest friends and players to help teach a new player who is a spell castor. But man, the player who nags the new player to use certain spells because it's the "best" spells annoys me.
I messed up and ordered the deathbringer tshirt in 5xl.
At least now I have a big comfy pyjama shirt. Napbringer?
XD You can always invite a couple of friends to wear it with you as you re-enact "The Knights of Ni!"
Lol. Put a belt around it, and it's like a tabbard!
I would add another player type that bothers me: the missing person. This player is appropriately involved in the game when they are there. They even get enthusiastic and talk about getting together for some more D&D soon. But once the calendar comes out, it’s a totally different story.
Will she reply to the group text to say if she will make it? Okay, she said she is coming, but will she actually show up. How far after the start of the session will we find out she can’t make it, if ever? The answers to these questions are secret knowledge that can’t be shared with the DM or other players. Super frustrating when planning a session.
But unlike the rest of the list, THAT is not under the player's control, right? I mean, IF the person can't make it because of some real life problem/responsibility or something like that. But if the person just doesn't go and doesn't say anything about it, then yeah, you're absolutely right.
Now you need one on the worst DMs. I have my comment lined up.
Those exist too, yes. I've had one or two of them.
Do tell. Put them right here & I’ll make the episode.
Absolutely top of the list is the “Magical Realm” DM, i.e the one who drags you into his or her niche, bizarre or outrageous fetishes under the guise of TTRPG adventures.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I had one when I was in middle school whose game was held in the science teacher's classroom. One of the rules in exchange for the teacher making the classroom available was that anyone who wanted to play be allowed to do so.
I was that kid every school has that nobody wants to allow into any group, but the DM was required to "permit" me at the table.
You can imagine how that played out. Suddenly I'm separated from the rest of the group before anything else happens and surprised by an immortal lich king who knows exactly where I am hiding, attacks and is given automatic surprise and whose touch is instant death …
I'm not opposed to it being "hard" to come out the other side of an adventure alive. Hard can be part of the fun, right? But a foregone conclusion that you'll be dead within five minutes, wait to be allowed to rejoin the group later, rinse and repeat … that was not a good DM.
We were kids, but I've seen adults play that way when they don't have an excuse to disinvite, say, a girlfriend, but don't want a game with GURLS in it or similarly stupid things.
That nearly turned me away from the game completely. Would have if not for my love of the fantasy genre as a whole.
@@knghtbrd That's pretty terrible. I've always said great games of D&D are the GREATEST dramatic experience you can have, but BAD D&D is the worst.
#9 The "We understand" Then Rage Quit Player: I have a wife with a chronic pain illness who loves RPGs. We have several friends who know this and are perfectly fine with games getting called due to the issues this causes our household. Many of my players have been playing with me off and on for at least 30 years, no matter where they live. We recently invited one of my wife's old friends that she hadn't seen in a while. She knows my wife, her ex-best friend, and we talked about the potential for games to get called due to her being sick and my daughter needing attention. 2 years into a campaign, she suddenly started spewing hate at us online for canceling games. Having no respect for their time. Hell, they could have bowed out the moment we told them this would be an issue and that all our other players understood. She accused a player of misogyny, yet she forced him into Role-Playing that role by being aggressively angry at him all the time, so in-game he fought back. He's the only male in my group right now and all the girls are shocked anybody would call him a misogynist, they think he's nice, polite, and fun to play with. I've never told him what she thought of him and instead welcomed her departure. Sadly, my wife lost a life-long friend as a result of her very public rage quit. Adults have problems, especially during a pandemic, and are unemployed with a sick wife and a kid in remote home-school for Kindergarten. I've been running games since 1981 and have never seen a player behave like that.
Stress can unearth our inner selves. And sometimes some of those inner selves are a-holes.
I just had a group of friends who I’ve gamed with for 20 years oust me from their regular Saturday sessions because I’ve been “unreliable” due to my babies and chronically ill wife. They simply can’t imagine a way to let me play in a less-than-perfect attendance expectation.
They are no longer my friends.
@@spamman6369 That's harsh. I'm sorry and can absolutely sympathize with that position. I always try to make room for those I know want to play but find it impossible to make every session. I treat my players with that respect and hope to be treated the same. We're adults, we have lives and we have problems. Understanding is the best attitude to have at the table.
@@spamman6369 Dang. What a bunch of jerks.
@@spamman6369 That sucks. They didn't deserve any time you could spare for them
One of the things I do is a bit of vetting in session 0. I let everyone know what type of game I'm running, what home brew is involved and what I expect and won't tolerate from them. This method has worked well at weeding out problem players before we roll the first die.
I was imagining a point where the Professor would say, "Number 4: Steve....yes, you, Steve. You watching right now. Steve, you are one of the worst players ever. Number 5"
Shades of John Oliver!
Ah. It was STEVE who hit the Dislike button! XD
To me, an RPG is like joining a bowling league; it's a commitment. When you can't be bothered to show up to play a game in which everyone contributes, that's the worst. At least a cheater is present and playing. Watch your cheater closely and their flaw is minimized. But the serial canceller prevents the game from happening.
Yes I have had that problem and I try to make sure I can fill the gap. Sometimes
it can be done with an NPC but that is my least favorite way of fixing "problems".
If someone likes to be a no show, I try to make sure their character expendable in
the sense that they are not the sole possessor of some important skill or item.
You can run the game minus one player, especially if the late or cancellation has good cause which can always happen. There is never good justification for cheating. Never suffer a cheater.
A serial no-show automatically fixes the problem. A cheater requires constant babysitting, which no one at the table wants. Turns out that my cheater quit because he was also a crybaby and whined that if I didn't let him cheat, he'd quit. I simply recruited another player to replace the no-show, and best of all - no drama.
This bugs me too. Last campaign I tried to have, I knew that one player would have a hard time scheduling. So we all made an effort to show our availability. We played two sessions then he comes back and says that his wife doesn't want me playing on the these days... like dude we agreed that THIS cadence was the optimal cadence for everyone. (I'm married as well). If you can't make the time don't act like you have the time in the beginning, be upfront. Now we are just stuck, because his free time is on different weekends now and no one wants to keep playing without him...
@@simmonslucas This was my constant no-show. We even changed up our schedules to fit his, and he still won't show.
I'm actually so glad I watched this! My buddies and I started a game, but we all have very strong personalities, role play pretty heavily, and picked up the rules pretty quickly.
One of our biggest issues is side questing, because we all would hog the story sometimes! We usually play together fine when we aren't split up, but the splits could be contentious because we didn't have structure. I recently suggested that we make side quests turn based, similar to combat. Everyone agreed that it would be good to try. Since you suggested a timer to deal with role play divas, I'm really hoping it resolves our issues!
I'm glad you watched it too. That video underperformed and I could never figure out why.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I'm glad I could provide some validation. I like your take on DnD. Your experience gives you such great insight into how to maximize the fun and engagement for everyone involved in a campaign.
How'd it work out?
Also, what if side quests were resolved with a single die roll? That would allow them to happen, but keep the action on the main storyline (unless all PCs want to pursue the side quest).
The mood killer is like a heckler. Yeah maybe they are funny
but it kills the flow, the mood, and really the whole experience.
I missed the poll, but I'm surprised the "Not Paying Attention" player wasn't on the list.
Oh... it's my turn? Who's this guy? Is he a badguy?
My players might get off topic now and again, but this video just made me appreciate how cool my lads are.
Oh, whew! CATEGORIES of players. I thought I was going to be on his list. "#1: Asthmatic Kobold, he's a jerk!"
You weren't the single dislike, then? lol
"Steve, steve is a real c'nt"
I had a cheater in one of my games and I didn't want to kick him out so I came up with an interesting way to "reform" him. I took away his dice. I told him to put them away as he wouldn't need them any more. For that entire session, I ruled every action he took was a critical success. No enemies could hit him. Some of them just lay down at his feet and took their own lives. Afterward, I asked him if he had fun. He replied that he did not. We had a discussion about how the uncertainty and risk that the PCs face is the fun part of the game. He got the idea and I've never noticed any cheating from him since.
THIS is epic level GM skill, sir. I salute you.
Our group has someone who’s a bit of a number 8, and yes, they’re playing a spellcaster. Every time they cast an offensive spell they have to recalculate their spell save or spell to-hit bonus. I always suggest they write it down on their sheet, but they never do.
I think we all have that #8
The phrase "It;s what the character would do..." carries a double edged sword.
As far as I'm concerned, the whole point of the game is getting players to play their characters the way they should, based on the person they created to the height of commitment to the characters persona.
For some "It's what the character would do..." is used simply as an explanation of their behaviour, for others it is used as an excuse for being a dick.
I've had players self sacrifice long term high level characters for the good of the party/city/world because "It's what the character would do..."
This is the height of what I want my players to achieve.
I've had other players run characters with no discernible personality beyond what suits them in the moment. They generally don't give a shit about the overall game (most come from Computer RPG games, and regard every other character as an NPC in THEIR game world where the game exists for THEM alone...) and like to test the strength of the plot and the patience of the other players. They do shitty things and when confronted by the other players fall back on the "Hey... it's what the character would do." excuse.
This is the nadir of role playing and is not fit for the worst online MMO, let alone a table top game run by and participated by human beings.
I have occasionally had a tear in my eye hearing someone say "It's what the character would do..." and at other times come close to ventilating the ass-clown who said it.
They will even argue about how the fantasy/Sci-Fi physics work. How does a character crack the door encryptions? (to one player). The arguer jumps in and says that it wouldn't work that way after the first player describes how he would crack the door....
I love the sand-timer idea. "If this runs out and you haven't decided yet, your character takes the Dodge action and we go on to the next in initiative."
I'm so lucky as a dm.
All of my players know the rules but will listen to my final say if something in disagreement or not understood. They all love role-playing and being in character but try to have a partner if they do something or give me a heads up if they choose to be alone so I can veto or manage the interactions. And they encourage each other and are just love all the players.
As for mood killers, that is myself. One time I gave them an extra 1d4 on rolls for every skeleton pun they made when they fought a litch and its skeleton army. The fight was so intense, but everyone was throwing the worst puns around and all in character. It was perfect
My best advice to players..pay attention to the board and whats going on but focus on your player and what you are going to do on your turn....especially if you are a spellcaster. When its your turn you should know everything about the spell...segments..damage..area of effect...range etc....nothing worse then waiting 5 mins for someone to read thru the spell..when they had 5 mins in between their turn.
Had to excuse a player from a group after he threatened me (the DM), called me an idiot (among other things), and did this in front of the other players (live in-person game). I kept my cool during this tirade, and after he left (this all happened at the end of a session), I asked the host her thoughts. She posted in the group chat that such behavior would not be tolerated and that as DM, my decisions were final and not to be argued. (He was complaining that I always run NPCs as antagonists - which was a natural reaction to how he ran his character.) He made things easy for us in that he chose to quit. Out of the same group, just a few months prior, we had to excuse a player because he consistently hogged the spotlight, bullied other players to do what he thought they should do (even though his own stupid actions were okay), and argued rules. After he was excused, a few weeks later he begged to be allowed to return, promising that he'd learned his lesson. I brought it to the group - at least one player said that if he were to return, they'd quit immediately.
A few things not on your list, though were implied and may be included in your categories: The consummate meta-gamer, the bully (a type of manipulator), and the person focused acting out their inappropriate fantasies. And one that's a hot button for me is the player who shows up high or drunk (or gets that way during the game.) I once walked out of a game (as a player) when another player got drunk during the session. I get why he was having issues - his wife just filed for divorce, but for me, D&D isn't the time or place to deal with it. If we wanted to set the game aside and be supportive for our friend, let's do that, but if we're trying to play a serious game, the two don't mesh.
I strongly agree with Scott's additions of consummate meta-gamer, manipulator, and inappropriate fantasizer. I've played with them all, and it is no fun. Quit games over the latter.
Good point with the use of substances during a game. It works fine for zero-stakes games where everyone is being an idiot though.
If only meta-gamers did that with the rules and not published adventures. Granted, I had a player who played a module back in the 80's, but unconsciously recalled certain NPCs, monsters & encounters in the 5e version "Ghosts of Saltmarsh", but warned me ahead of time that he'd played it before and tried to be very careful about not acting upon recalled info. (We came up with a Wisdom check system to get around this: He tells me when he remembers part of the adventure, I have him make a Wisdom check. Success: He may do what he wants. Fail: He must choose a course of action that feigns ignorance of the encounter. For major encounters, the DC was always pretty high, like 15-20 range so he couldn't bypass them or otherwise ruin it for other players.)
I am stubborn and will resist all types of manipulation, unless I've already decided that the manipulation - in the form of advice or direction - was a good idea to begin with. Manipulators never find the foothold they desire with me.
Inappropriate fantasizers never last long enough to finish a stream-of-conscience inappropriate remark before being told to leave.
At my table, we drink. Some of us smoke (outside, in the alley, far away from the house & other players). If our drinking is a problem with other players, we curb it if its a legit problem (addiction, etc.), ignore it if its a recognizable manipulation tactic.
But our non-drinking players never have a problem with us drinking. We have a tougher go of staying focused after a full weekend of BBQ ribs, honestly.
Agree all of these. One exception, however, is if you are specifically running a rules lite beer and pretzels game. The beer part is kinda part of it! :-)
Some people can't handle their booze though, but my group is all fine.
@@josephbradshaw6985 I don't drink alcohol of any kind... though I do play recreational hockey in a "beer league." ;-)
@@Robcockulous1 Smoke break, split the group .. even if you don't smoke .. take five or ten from the table so you can create mystery on how well the other half is doing.
I am a natural meta-gamer and rules lawyer, so any time there was a needed fact check on how something is done, I was the one to hit the books the quickest. Then the DM makes a judgment call on how it will make a better plot movement for the game. Another question of can or can not the Player PC do something and how can we twist it to make for a more fun game story play.
Also I have been know to public cheat on my dice rolls if I think it would make a funnier game moment. Like saying I failed a low Reflex save on walking up a stair case cover in oil. Ending up swimming on the steps cause I can stand back up since the PC is cover in oil. Or saying I got a result of a 20 with my throwing axe and head shot the warlord's head. Which just bounce off his helmet and I roll in front of everyone a Reflex/ Dex check to see how far I over extended myself and fall on my backside or face. My gaming group just loves slap stick.
One type of player I don't think gets mentioned enough is the "Gets bored of their character" player. There's someone in our group who likes to join the first few episodes of a campaign, then bails and gets bored of their character. They'll come back 6 months later with a new character we have to bother learning the name of only for him to bail for another couple months and come back with someone else. Personally this is my least favourite type of player.
True.
Solution: dramatic death sequence!
In a group I'm in there's two cheaters, one cheats rarely, one cheats constantly.
In a setting outside of the game my spouse asked the DM how he deals with various problem players, including cheaters and he said he doesn't understand it but that he lets it happen "but with a twist". And that he sees it and knows about it.
The cheaters are people I respect less and less the more I see them do it, but the DM knowing and letting it happen? That makes me respect the game less, I don't feel emotionally invested in the game.
I like the Spotlighters, you just have to reign them in. For the most part they don't really know what they are doing. cough cough I'm a Spotlighter... And round Robbin usually helps me be more conscientious.
I can not stand the need to try to account for every possibility. As a player, I just gauge the table and go for it. And Runehammer's awesome dice countdown is very handy. Just change dice from 4 to 3 and they start to make choices.
I have always found that variations of "it's what my character would do" come up not as much when they are doing something mechanically suboptimal, but more when they are harming the fun of some other player. Like I had a player who played a kender (and we used the rules that allowed him to happen to have random useful items on them that they "found"). This particular PC was fascinated by magic and so in addition to using the rule for "found" items he would frequently slip me notes asking to pickpocket items from PCs. Initially, I indulged this and he'd get random trinkets, maybe a gemstone on occasion. Later he started naming specific magic items he wanted to lift from his fellow PCs. There I drew a line and said no, but he said the old "It's what my character would do." By that time the character had also started habitually (often mid-combat) going and pick through treasure before the party got there and pocketing the stuff that was obviously magical.
The thing is: I concede that might be what his character would do...but it also created dysfunction within the gaming group. And if that is "what your character would do" maybe play a different character. The player defines the character, and there are plenty of possibilities that don't make the other players want to not come back next week. (This particular player, almost pathologically, always plays characters that don't get along with the other characters (usually because his characters are greedy, but he also stars unwanted PvP), but the kender was the first time my friends just couldn't get past his antics.)
Damned. I'm a mood killer, but i'm healing myself 😄.
As a GM too, i'm according to your vision of the relation between players and the GM acting together for the benefit of the story and the fun.
But bad also exists: one member of our club came to a mini con as a dm. Dm didn't have to pay to enter. First minute at the table, told to the players to roll for a constitution roll with a very high difficulty. They fail. "Ok guys, your characters just died from plague. Game is over, enjoy the con". And he lives the table🤦🤦.
True story, the players find other tables easily and enjoyed the rest of the day, but wtf man.
Greatings from France Pr, your tips are very smart and useful, making me thinking the way i want to run my table. Sorry, my english is getting rusty. 😉
Agreed, also I spent a summer in France as a young teenager who was mad for RPGs and we played many happy adventures together despite my bad French so hi from England.
@@rowanhawklan9707 i wonder, how possible it is to integrate the fact that we don't speak very well the langage spoken during a game, as a player. Could be fun, except for description maybe.
@@bricounet9386 yeah, you could be a visitor the the fantasy Kingdom in question, a lot of PCs are from different lands right?
I have had kingdom's in my campaign where the people spoke French and German so I was able to effect my terrible French and German accents for the NPCs there😆
@@rowanhawklan9707 i 'll ask my former german wife for German. Specially in warhammer 😄
One that escaped the list is "The player who brings a disruptive friend who doesn't care about the game"
A most excellent video sir! I will continue to send new viewers to your channel. Also, the Deathbringer outro was perfect. Thank you!
I am guilty myself of being #7 and #4.
In my defence, when I try to be the center of the attention (#7), is to motivate the others to do the same. I always find easier for people looking at the target number, than describe an action. Wasn't RPG standing for Role Playing...?
About the micromanagement aspect... honestly, some people needs to be taken by hand and be told what to do. We win and we lose as party, and if the party is losing by the (lack of) action of someone, no way I am going to shut up about.
Another great video, thanks for sharing it with the Community.
Thank you and may all your rolls be 20s!
Thanks for the video. I've been running since 1981..I've had a few. When I was younger I was quite a bit more picky but I still HEAVILY VETT potential players in our private groups. Public game days and conventions are still an amazing crucible of people however and can be a really useful place for GMs to hone their skills and ability to speed read people. I highly recommend for GMs who think they're 'the best' to go ahead and run at public settings. It can be quite humbling but it also makes things much better for helping make your home group better. Cheers!
My worst player experience -
Dm to each player in turn: what are you doing?
Pc1: ABC
Pc2: DEF
Pc3: XYZ
Pc4: what do you mean what am i doing? ( and we ALWAYS made this guy go last to try to teach him how to set up his action).
I tend to call the "Spotlight Hogs" a different name: "D&Divas".
👍
Had a few
The Controller - He would get upset if anyone did anything he didn't want them to do. He also would try to be the talker with a charisma of 9 and get upset when it failed because he was a great talker. We found out later he also had a criminal record of something bad. He drove off a few people and we never saw it.
The Argumentative Player. The guy who always wanted to argue on your rules, but would tell you to never argue with him on his rules.
The Shrill Interrupter. She had the most annoying high pitched voice and would interrupt the DM when they where talking
The Sleeper - They fall asleep even in the middle of combat and excitement (Had a few of these)
The Time waster... Yes, had a guy that would pick up his dice, think about it, Roll the dice, then look at his sheet for a long time, then say what he rolled.
My Controller was often a DM, and wanted to help with every aspect of the game, including other people's characters, what they did, and what they said. He's much better now - he had this behavior happen to him a few times, and it freaked him out.
My interrupter was a nice dude who interrupted/talked over so bad we imposed a strict turn order for in-game conversation, and for his questions. He left when he spent as much time in HR sessions as playing.
@@kurtoogle4576 Sadly, right now I have no group. The guy who loved to Argue was one of the last we played with (It was down to him, his wife (only on occasion, my husband, a buy who lived 200 miles away that worked more OT than should be legal and hardly made it anymore, and a new guy going to school his schedule was changing, and myself. I've been looking for players for years and just cannot fine any. My game group is no more :-(
I would have to add players who consistently get too drunk and or stone to be effective. I finally remember the days when too much Jolt Cola or Pizza grease on the dice are the only foreign substances we had to worry about.
I'm amazed at how many DMs complain about inebriated players. My players are squares.
They seem to be rare, but the really bad ones can wreck a game. In one case a few years ago, the drunk was sloppy, loud, moody, controlling .. and the worst part was he was the host of the game so probably felt able to get away with more - didn't need to drive home after, if the rest of us didn't like it where would we go? etc.
The mood killer is the PLAYER. The DM attempts to create a PLATOON campaign, the players make it into HOT SHOTS. Both Charlie Sheen movies, but slightly different. I'll admit when DMing I am the straight man. When playing, have fun...That's why I don't do gothic horror or anything that is TOO serious...
This is all from the perspective of the GM, but from the perspective of players the worst player is the one that has nepotism as a favored "mary sue" of the DM with a character that's secretly a villain against the other players or a conditional villain if they don't all follow a railroad adventure. I doubt you'd ever have that kind of relationship where you'd favor some players at the exclusion of some newbies, but there are sometimes weird GMs that do that. They're retaliatory desensitized pricks who exclude participation in various way (like extreme unbalanced levels of different characters) where all the newbie low level characters can do is go along to get along and hide when there' s monsters that will kill them, rather than participate in eliminating the threat.
Well said
I had a player who decided that their PC was going to slit the throat of the city watch captain while the party was surrounded by about 12 watch guards. It was a "I'm roleplaying my character" moment. They neglected to tell me their PC was evil.... That pretty much ended the game after another session. It was the first time I ever DM'd so I had no idea how to handle it. Looking back the watch would have killed their PC and I'd have told them to roll a new good aligned PC who wants and has reasons to adventure with the party or don't come back.
Another happy session! :D I like this list, it didn't actually go completely as I expected it to, either!
With my first group, I had a mood killer: I was describing a dark corridor with 2 alcoves on each side in the first module of rise of the runelords. While I was drawing it, he found nothing better than say: DUH, looks like a cock! I was really pissed..
He is still a very good friend of mine, but I don't play with him anymore.
I fear this is a sign for me to find greener pastures as almost everyone in my group save for maybe 1 person is actually a competent player. One just wants to hang out, is never prepared, never pays attention, and whines when things dont go her way. The other is always trying to hog the spotlight with his voice acting chops and always makes terrible decisions that jeopardize the whole party. And last but not least the guy who shows up late all the time, then has to leave half way through to get food. I essentially dont even prep games anymore, Its a waste of time.
I shut down a dice cheater by mandating that everyone rolls in the open, even me as the DM. Sadly, that player also had other issues that were not as easily solved, and the group voted them "off the island".
Professor Dungeon Master: This is your superlative work to date. All your work is solid and contributes meaningfully. I'm a Pathfinder GM waiting to release my Opus Magnus on another party because the first time, I failed to draw them in meaningfully. Your ability to translate specific problems to general concepts for GMs to use is serving me incredibly well. Someday, I'll launch my campaign again, and with your help, I know I'll be a better GM than now, and hopefully a great GM they'd all recommend.
The Spare Wheel. Player who attends games because it gets them out of the house but make no effort. As a young DM I had one player Tim who I used to have to go pick up from his mum’s house; he professed interest but never really contributed. One time he was chauffeured to the game but spent half the session reading magazines at the table.
The ‘It Should Be My Game’ Guy. Inevitably a DM for some other unlucky souls. Resents having to play someone else’s plotline. Dismisses background material, hooks, NPC conversations as somehow not good enough. Once had a player like this who had his character actually leave the dungeon and go back to town, as a way to derail the adventure. In another example I joined someone’s campaign, which was quite new, and found the party were involved in trying to get one of them elected town mayor. 2 sessions later the penny dropped: this was nothing to do with the DM, whose own plans had been trampled on.
I've had to deal with a micromanaging player who couldn't help but tell EVERYONE how to play, including me as the GM. He would turn combat into a dice rolling exercise and a chore, cuz he wanted to finish up the adventure in one session instead of going with the flow and letting people have fun. I couldn't even describe a fight scene as combat took place, cuz he would stop me and turn it into a 15 min argument about wasting time. Problem was he was the one that got everyone together. So I couldn't just kick him out, and it eventually derailed the campaign. At least his daughters got hooked from those games and one of them has her own group now.
That guy sounds like a real flumph!
Great episode, Prof. DM. And a good reason to make Rumors a dungeon soundtrack for a while.
I had a question related to your other video about the UDT. Is there a reason why you make your terrain round as opposed to hexagonal or octagonal?
Great question. Because when you spin it, it doesn't knock over the water glasses!
As someone who was a chronic cheater and arguer when I started playing as a teen (bless my poor friend and dm for their patience), the most immediate and thorough remedy was 1000% when I started dming myself. It gave me such a fresh perspective on the game, and I'm so glad I tried it out. It made me realize how much work goes into running a game for others as well as how much the game improves when it becomes a collaborative experience. I think any player who wants to improve their game should try to dm at least once and see how it affects the way they play going forward. Cheers :)
"A good DM says 'You make check if I tell you you make the check."
Advice from My buddies dad when we were kids and he heard us calculating the target number
Good video Dan! Unfortunately I had to let a player go recently. He was hogging the table and would talk over people. Would try to tell players what to do. He was literally 4 of these types. Good kid but had issues with ADHD and knew he had issues. Was "softly warned" but came back with the same behavior the next session. 😢 but true.
Thanks for the video Dan. Always enjoy your channel partner.
Memories of GMing all 8 types flash back. Great video
Former Arguer here, I got banned by my DM something like 7 years ago, and she had every right to do it. I never had the chance to play at this specific DM's table again, but after 2 years of TTRPG sabbatical, I got to play with other players at this table, and could prove I had cleaned up my act. I'm so grateful for it. I still have a penchant for
I also felt the *urge* to cheat in my early 20's, because let's face it, some rolls are just sad, and we truly, deeply wish things were different. Thankfully, impulse control prevailed, and I can't say I have ever cheated at the game.
As DM, I am the arbiter. Not YOUR arbiter. Not the MONSTERS arbiter... THE arbiter. I'm neither for you not against you.
I also roll my dice openly and refuse to fudge. Therefore, my cards are all on the table. If you refuse to put in the work, to play fair, or to cooperate with your fellow players, ask yourself if I intend to save you from your fate. I will not save a player from themselves, but I may eject one for abusing the trust of the table.
Played with a couple of cheaters myself ...and I don't think I'll ever understand people like that (at least as far as RPGs go - I mean, what's the point).
Some of the most fun and memorable games have happened when things didn't go as planned (due to bad dice rolls) ...and have even led to little side missions of their own on the odd occasion :)
The duck squeak caught me off guard. Nearly choked on an apple.
I accept your terms. 8 categories?!??! I hope I'm only a couple.
My dad was a real Lawyer. Not my fault.
8. I'm always, way too early, but I bring snacks.
I'm always equipped.
7 Not a spotlight Hog. I've been on a side quest or two.
6.Ooo I do make inappropriate jokes. Yikes. Don't show cat videos. Don't bring my phone to the table.
5.I'm quick at the table. Quick .... Too quick.
4.Nope everyone else is on their own.
3.Did I mention my dad was a lawyer. But I don't argue with the game master.
2. Emotional Blackmailer. Hmmm Nope.
1. Whew.
Worst DM's:
Unprepared.
'Just wing it' on attack rolls, despite the actual math ('No, its not a 'possible critical', that attack actually missed).
'I meant to do that' ignoring Anathemas, Conditions, and Map details.
'HA! Surprised You' Vampires immune to sunlight, Were-Creatures immune to weapon damage, Goblins with Resistance vs. Force Effects.
'I win if you lose' consider themselves to be opponents of the Players.
You should do one on the worst DMs...
Rules lawyers and munchkins are generally entirely different, as far as my experience goes.
I also never give people characters. They make their own.
When it comes to number 8, I don't mind them until they start taking my pencil, rubber and sharpener and the table looking at me when I get annoyed. I was the only one who bothered to show up with my own gear and the GM was kind enough to even supply extra gear for people who didn't manage to get their own stuff, but they still borrow my stuff when there's enough for everyone.
Personally, the problem with me is time wasting because I talk slowly, forget my words sometimes and my hands aren't as nimble as they should be. I make up for it by planning my next 3 turns while everyone else is doing their turns, but even then something unexpected may show up, making me rethink everything.
The Arguer. Oh yes, had one in our group. He would try find wiggle room in all the rules just to get his way. It slowed down play and definitely made the atmosphere so bad that the game died a slow death.
Sorry about that. been there. Luckily my current players are awesome! Check out their latest adventures: ruclips.net/video/95zr1mmx4vM/видео.html
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 thank you! I had watched it already, but I'm catching up on older content.
Have to say the meta-gamer has been climbing up my Worst Players list. In my group, specifically, are a pair of players who are always looking up the stat blocks of the monsters. We play over a VTT so I don't have any great way to stop them from doing this as that info can be found online, and at first I wrote it off. I simply trusted that as long as their characters weren't unfairly acting upon that info, what was the harm? Then I got questions from these same players (and only them) like "Does my character know what this monster is weak against?" which seemed a bit suspicious. Felt like probing for a way to justify using their out-of-game knowledge. Then during one session, I slightly misinterpreted a monster's aura ability (which didn't have a significant impact on the combat) and, while the combat was still ongoing, was getting spam DM's from one of the meta-gaming players to recheck the monster's ability. Now I've really soured on meta-gamers and have become much more paranoid about keeping monster stats hidden.
It sounds like I have been fortunate throughout the years. I have mainly been a DM & have had hardly any issues that you mentioned. One incident comes to mind though, a player of mine & good friend decided he wanted to argue with me about combat in water (it was so trivial, I don't even remember the details) and it actually brought the game to a halt that night. He called me the next day & apologized, and assured me it would never happen again. So I have to say, I have been blessed to have not only a great groups of players, but also very good friends to play with. Now DMS?...I do have a few stories & they are not always pretty.
In psychology and therapy, one of the most important initial parts of the therapeutic process involves building a rapport with the client as well as creating and maintaining a psychosocially supportive environment. The rapport part would translate to a DM as "getting to know your players", but the psychosocial environment works similarly in that you have to maintain an environment where players sustain a suspension of disbelief.
A mood-killer destroys that very volatile atmosphere with a, sometimes, wanton disregard for the group, and it often happens so suddenly as a result of an emotional reaction. A massive fun-killing behaviour.
Cross-posting from Patreon to help feed the algorithm... Good video. My nomination would have been the player who unfavorably compares everything to another GM, group, game world, or set of rules. Kind of like a mother-in-law. "That's not how my other GM does things.". "In my other group, we do this...". "In my Greyhawk campaign, wizards aren't hunted.". "That's not how it works in 5E.". You know what, buddy - go play with your other group and don't come back!
Thanks Professor, for another great video. 🙏😊 Sadly, or happily or maybe both, I have come across all those player "types" in my years as DM.
My favourite tactic with almost all of them is to just keep letting them have a little bit more 'rope' until they realise themselves that they're now distanced from their own PARTY.
Or, even better, the other Party members say "What the heck are you doing?" and pull them into line. Works EVERY time..... 😉😉😉
M 🦘🏏😎
I was wondering if you made a clip about dungeon masters? Most of what you said was true, however in 30 years of playing I have noticed a tendency for a even percent of dungeon masters who clearly were not up to par. However their a type personalities and narcissism forces them to blame anyone and everything and if that doesn’t work they ostracize you. You yourself made it very clear several times that your end call is just that.
Just wondering if the all mighty can see the trees as well as the rest of us.. but..your list is good for what it is.
The list of awful DMs is coming. My patrons are creating it now.
Always respect the ruling. That said I think it is important to feel you have been heard and understood before being shutdown. I don't need I lecture, I don't have to change your mind, just let me explain my intended action and why it seems appropriate in the situation before ruling it out. I am often the quickest turn at the table and just want a chance to articulate my idea.
Played alongside a cheater before… done it with everything; rolling stats, skill checks, combat rolls, initiative, etc. He was the oldest member of our table.
I’d just sit there and think to myself - how does you rolling a bunch of 1s and 2s for your stats equate to a ‘16’. He’d roll the dice into a tray, quickly pick it up and say a higher number. Our DM didn’t seem to mind it, so I didn’t make an issue of it.
I think I’d add the ‘intentional Derailer’ to the list; aka the person that intentionally attempts to derail a campaign, whether it be plot device or NPC - Attacking the main NPCs, throwing away the MacGuffin, ignoring any signposting, etc.
I think these people believe, either literally or normatively, in a kind of radical sandboxing where at the three hour mark of the eight session they throw away their noble titles, renounce dragon slaying, and take up a sailing ship to be international arms merchants. Because you can't actually derail a sandbox, right?
amazing transition at 13:45!!!
Love this kind of video. Also loved annoying player habits. Some of the best!
"Characters may even die"
Please for the love of all that is holy can I play in one of your games? I've played with so many DMs who won't even consider having any risk in their games because they "don't want to harm the characters"
I just want to be shot at :(
Usually, I think your opinions are just a little too crazy for my players to implement them at my table. But, in this video I agree 1000%. You nailed it. All of it!
I know at least one of each kind. I used to be a mood killer type, until I started DMing and understood how much effort can go into creating atmosphere. Now I'm a mood police, I tell others to shut up when the DM's doing their thing. It's just as annoying, probably...
Not to the DM. I thank you on the half of all of us!
I prefer that characters have their agency, but I have had problems sometimes with players forgetting stuff that's currently happening in combat (fellow player). My cleric in 5e used channel divinity to "turn" a good amount of undead that were surrounding the party. The rogue goes and attacks one of the turned enemies and I just sigh/look at the game master because I didn't want to stop him from doing that... But I don't know if it would have been best if I explained the rules on turn undead so he knew it wasn't optimal in the game to do that. Maybe he didn't know what turn undead did, or completely forgot what was happening by the time his turn came up.
I have one that infuriates me that is a hybrid of Perpetually Unprepared and Time Waster: Disengaged and Not Paying Attention. Usually because they're doing something else, which is made even worse if this is an online VTT, everything that has happened since their last turn was completely ignored, forcing everyone to explain everything to them a second time. I don't mind a player that's slow and methodical, but I hate, HATE explaining everything twice because they weren't paying attention.
"Ok, player, you're up, are you doing?"
..."uh. What?"
"It's your turn"
"Oh, ok..........I attack the thing with my sword."
"You can't. It's in the air."
"It is? well didn't you tell me?"
I mean, don't expect every player to remember every detail, especially someone new, and I happy to repeat that information. But when you've got someone that is consistently doing this, likely because they've got some other game open in another window, it gets tiring.
I've been lucky in terms of toxicity, but First one on the list. 27 sessions later, and we still explained adding up rolls for a d&d sorcerer.
Looking back, should have just talked to them and offered a character switch to a fighter.
For the cheaters I enforce open rolls ALL THE TIME. No exceptions. I need to see the result and you will not grab the dice until I know what the result is. Had a cheater once. Once.
I had a player that rolled nat 20s so often that the other players accused him of cheating! He'd do all the classic tricks - roll a die that wasn't clearly labeled (i.e. no ink or paint), pick it up immediately after rolling so that he could hold it up to his eye and squint at it, roll on a table behind him (not on the game table), etc. He claimed he wasn't cheating, but that his die was "blessed." We made him roll my dice on the table in front of everyone - dice that were clearly readable from across the table, and his results normalized. Suffice it to say - he's not in the group anymore.
@@scottgrant1635 oh yeah I've seen it all, but most during tabletop wargaming. The roll-and-scoop, the "dice-adder" (he adds successes to the amount he rolled when there are tons of dice on the table), the rolled-behind-him, the flipper (flips other dice when he picks up the results). During RPGs I had some of the above as well as the ol' "Imma roll on my phone app" and then he resets the results when I want to take a look.
I would say the #1 most toxic player is the emotional abuser. I've actually played with a couple of those, and it's far worse than dealing with a cheater.
I hear you--although I have not met anyone like that--thankfully.
Great video. I don't always agree with everything you say but this video was 100% spot on!
Sharing this with my group!
Honestly, the worst spotlight hog I ever met insisted on rolling crazy munchkin builds design to do one thing in crazy detail. Like a monk designed just to stun a boss, grapple them, fly up in the air and then collect the free fall damage. Flat out told him no and booted him a few months later. I get wanting to be powerful but he flat out said he wouldn’t help the others and the character was also super goofy
I think a lot of this is generally good advice. I would just offer one anecdotal challenge on the topic of the "unprepared" - just to emphasize, what I think is the more general message of, your group should know your group, and sometimes it's useful to take a chance, and then talk openly about it. And of course, all groups are different. A group of people who meet up at the local game store every week, but otherwise doesn't hang out is going to be a different context from a group of friends who hang out all of the time, and rpg's are just one thing that they do in the context of being a community/extended family.
So, in college I started hanging out, and gaming, with a group comprising students at two nearby universities, and some of whom had been friends in high school. (tl;dr - we're still friends as adults, some of whom are married and with/without children.)
We played more than our share of one shots that went nowhere, and half-finished character creation sessions that devolved into drinking and playing Tony Hawk. But at some point we landed on a persistent campaign. And one of us (spoiler: it was "the girl." thankfully that situation changed pretty quickly, as basically we said, if you're in the group, we want you to play, and we don't care if you've never played D&D before. And anything like gender, who you're dating, whatever, didn't matter. If you're in, you're in.), had been told since high school "just make a fighter, we'll tell you what to roll." Or maybe it was that she just wanted to hang out, but didn't want to do anything game-wise. It was a long time ago. Whatever the case, it happened that at some point her boilerplate fighter character died. And of course we told her to roll up a new character.
But, for whatever reason, on this occasion, we told her that she could roll up whatever character she wanted, as long as it was *not* a fighter. And of all things, she made a cleric. And the change was almost immediate. Now she had a purpose. She was a priestess of Lathander, and it was her job to protect the party, and to bring the Light into dark places. And there was not a single session that she didn't have everything prepared, that she didn't have every spell on lock, that she wasn't completely attentive during other players' turns (in case she needed to go into provide healing, defense, buff, or support for someone). And ultimately, all of us had a lot more fun.
All of this is to say, know when to play to people's strengths, and when to challenge them, and approach these issues as a group of peers, rather than the GM bearing the sole responsibility.