Things started to die for me when the Eldar and Dark Eldar, names were changed for copyright reasons. That’s when we could tell the white collar talentless middle managers took over.
I haven't even managed to finish writing a single army list since 10th edition was introduced. I came back to the game in 9th, playing CSM with the very weak, vanilla 8th ed Codex. I got tabled every game. No fun. Despite objectives, which are a good thing, the game is won by wiping out units in one turn. Lethality is the metric. The only way to remove an enemy unit from an objective is to destroy it. 3rd edition had many faults, the AP mechanism being one of them, but it was far more a game of movement. The free wargear rules has effectively made some weapons largely unseen. The iconic bolter armed Marine is rarely seen, because pistol and chainsword is far more deadly. Nearly all games are now played in ruins, mostly in itc layout. It's just so dull.
Is that fair, though? "Change the name or get sued and spend millions of dollars and years in courtrooms" is understandably an issue of concern. Hate the people that bring the stupid lawsuits, not the people that genuinely don't want their lives and companies destroyed by them.
Literally my entire life after 7 years old I have been involved in 40k. It's so hard to explain to people how different it is now. It's so clean and boring. I show people one of my several 3rd edition rulebooks and most of them immediately get it as their eyes go wide and they look at the Eternity Gate. It's horrible when I imagine how much more diluted it will be in the future. I feel like Horus peering into the future amd seeing the horrors of the imperium. And if thats the future, then let the galaxy burn.
When CSM doesnt have dreadnoughts and Admech doesnt have servitors, you gotta ask wtf is going on and if the people who make the last few edition game rules actually read the lore.
From experience, doing something as a hobby vs doing the same thing professionally (or competitively) is night and day. GW's attempts to have a 'one size fits all' approach just won't work.
"40k was punk" Absolutely how I feel. It was back when marines were writing "die die die" on their helmets and it was a heavy metal album cover on steroids. Rogue Trader through 5th is what I love. The primaris are Buzz Lightyear looking marvel crap, it's now a space milsim marvel disney disaster with no soul.
Marines stopped being portraited with that Vietnam vibes and became more of genocidal space knights with the Third edition. And as of milsim, there is no milsim, it's more about fantasy ridiculousness nowadays.
40k is like that really great goth punk nerd friend who thrashed and gothed for 40 years like a saint. Now they work at the bank and drive a toyota and have a business cut. Sometimes they still wear a punked out belt or a big boot but always in memorial, and only occasionally. A throwback. Anything more daring might go against dress-code.
John Blanche, Wayne England, & Adrian Smith (and many, notable others), are the ones who enticed me into 40k via the artwork. Those are artworks I have on my wall in my studio!
Just focusing on the art … We went from buying a codex BECAUSE of the art. To downloading free PDFs of the rules because the Art has become soulless PDF worthy corporate shit
I think the same happened with DnD. The more people got interested, the more it lost dungeos and dragons and you can see it with art, messages and rules from devs, the whole idea of narrative, how table should work etc. I see a lot on the internet that people still consider 3.5 is the best despite some of the junk.
I still play the 1970s and 80s versions of D&D. It started going downhill with 2nd edition. Again, it was the “clean and corporate” route. They decided to sell it to kids and so the books had to be something your mom would find palatable.
40k sucks now because the people making it are making it for people who enjoy it the wrong way, for the wrong reasons. It's a storytelling game, that has been transmogrified into a sweaty competitive game, and I have not had much fun in 10th because everyone is playing to win instead of playing to see cool stuff happen. I am tired of meta lists, strategems, and general knobheaddery of the modern playerbase. It's gotten to the point that if your models aren't painted to my standard I won't play you. I am fucking tired of these tournament players doing the bare minimum to make the table look good. It's fucking infuriating, man. This isn't how the game is supposed to be.
I have to agree, when I see photos of the terrain on the tournement tables the modern crowd like to play on it makes me cringe, people pay actual money to attend and the tables are worse than the ones people in their mid teens were creating using terrain they scratch build from household rubbish 20 years ago. Where is the immersion in any of it? Why are the the objectives perspex circles rather than actual things that would believably be an objective? How hard would it to just put some crates or barrels on a base and paint them and voilà done. You are trying to take some supplies/ deny them to the enemy if you are someone like tyranids who couldn't want to directly use them.
@@ZhukovsBoots But if the margins of the objective isn't perfectly demarcated, how can I know if my squad of massive nearly unkillable dudes has control over it?
I don't think competitive play is a wrong way to play or have fun. For some people that IS fun. The issue is overprioritizing them at the expense of fluffy, narrative players.
40K may sell more and have more players than ever before but it will never match the quality of 2nd and 3rd edition. The combination of miniatures, the lore, art, and rules will never be matched.
2nd... 3rd... both great games for different reasons. If you could blend the 2 to improve the mass combat of 2nd whilst incorperating some of the complexity of 2nd into 3rd ed... That really would be the absolute peak.
Peak 40k was 3.5th edition. Its been a downhill trend ever since. The Dreadknight was the final nail in the coffin. A perfect example of the terrible direction the company was heading in.
It was Just 2nd Edition! Me and My Crew Just Skipped 3rd, and jumped back in at Forth, and we admitted maybe it does play better, for a New Player, but it's just Not What We Got Into... Remember 2nd Ed Vehicle Cardboard Big Cards (I forget their Real Name Now), all the Difference to the Different Vehicles. Or How all Humans moved 4", I think Eldar was 5", and the sort. Or how the Space Marines were Tactical, and allot of your Special Weapons, Heavy Weapons, and Power Weapons were tied up in Tactical Squads, oppose to Eldar were it's Elites were Generally More Mobile, Less Armor But a Few, Less Toughness, But Specialized in things, and more Maneuverable. Armies had Strengths and Weaknesses, but now, it's Not Like That, Every Army has the same stuff, maybe more, maybe less, but if you wanted to be a Space Marine, and have a bunch of Meltas you could only play One Type of Space Marines Chapter that had other Weaknesses, and it just added another layer of Strategy. Plus it was just better when Everyone Had Two Cents to Put in whether the Emperor was a False God, and you could Read this, and that is the Impression they are trying to give, and read something else like a Chapter Codex and you would think, No the Emperor is God. Or how about the War in Heaven, which was nothing more than an Eldar Myth akin to Ancient Greek Myths of Gods, and when the War In Heaven became something of known History as long as you played the Necrons it just really lost something, it was better as a Myth only Retained by the Eldar from Millions of Years Ago... I bought the 1st Necrons, the Original Metal Ones, Sold Them Like 3 Years Ago, because I needed to have another Army my Friends could beat, because I was Unstoppable Eldar! I Sold all my Guardians and Aspect Warriors like 3 years ago to (after being Swatted by Radical 40k Players, it's Not the Same Player Base, Young People Now are Trouble) and I had like 160 Guardians and like 70 Aspect Warriors, Not to Mention all my Heavies, so You Never Knew What I was Feilding as Eldar, I Loved Running Masses of Guardians Up the Board with Warlocks with Conceal, + Invulnerable Save on Guardians although they were like 8pts, than by the Time they are Almost in Range, my Elites to Falcons would descend upon anything Not Clumped Together in One Giant Mass and Wipe them Out, so everyone knew, I control the Board, or Else. I bought some Nids (like 1250 pts) Had Necrons (1000pts) and could play my Brothers Dark Angles (like 1500pts but could stretch to 1750, all 4th Ed Pts, because 2nd Ed Things Costed More) and I'd play those in Small Games, Not Take It Seriously so my Buddies would be Willing to Play Against Me, because they Got to a Point, they just didn't like the assured Victory of my Eldar, which I had over 3000pts and growing for a Time, But When I played the Eldar, I am Not Losing and Get Super Serious, so it was Fun to Borrow some Marines from my Brother, and throw Waves of Gaunts at someone...
I liked 2nd Ed, Terminator had a 2+ Armor Throw on 2 D6s, meaning without any Modifiers to the Gun, it's a 1 in 36 chance of getting threw. But almost all Guns Had a Modifier, most 1 or 2, so 3+ Space Marine Power Armor, was Only 5+ to even a Guardian on one D6, but still 3+ to a Gretchen. It took more Math per Roll, things took longer, everything was more Complicated, but if you could keep up it was Funnier, although allot of people couldn't and later Editions would make the Game Easier to Play for them, but I liked it because it was Complicated...
I Remember playing 7th or 8th Edition and Overwatch was nothing but a Guy with a Pistol Would Fire One-shot when Charged in an Assault, and it was just Dumb, Overwatch is how you covered someone running between the Buildings. Although I didn't like how it was always on a 6+, making Overwatch less powerful than it should of been even back in 2nd Ed. I wonder Did they Bring Back Modifiers for Armor, or bring back Overwatch, IDK I got Swatted by a Loser, and the War Hammer Community turned into Political Radicals and I wasn't about to open myself up to being Offed by the Cops because some Nerd Set Me Up! People that Play War Hammer Now aren't Cool People... No One I would want to be around, because they are Trouble, the Young People are Trouble Makers in a way were never were as Kids...
These reasons are why i have abandoned 40k and moved to one page rules. I remember back in the day when 3 units stats rules and flavor text could fit on a page onstead of these full page, plus datacard, plus cross refence of the army detachment to figure out what a single units rules are. Opr is a return to the sipler side of wargaming done right, where you can bring what you want, theow dice and have fun again.
Dawn of War on PC. I fell in love at the same moment. Especially that intro. Two armies charging at each other, space knights vs space orcs (I played Warcraft before that) was a dream come true. Especially the emphasis on Gothic architecture in buildings. When I discovered that there was a lot of older lore behind it and the tabletop game meant that was it, everything I wanted was in one place. Due to the small budget, first there were paper miniatures on pieces of cardboard and rules and codexes found on "certain" sites. When I finally got around to having the funds, bought the rulebook, codexes, miniatures, GW decided that Warhammer 40k would become a vehicle for spreading political messages, moralizing, etc... instead of what it was in the beginning. That's why I'm thinking about selling the miniatures and giving up on the hobby in general unless GW distances itself from what is not its business at all. I didn't want to include this part in the comment, but I am deeply disappointed.
lol political messages? you mean women just say it bud. you dont like women in your warhammer thats the only actual issue anyone can even come up with . lmfao
@@neoraven223 cobblers. There have been female models and characters in Warhammer since before 40k. WFB 2e featured Amazons and female elves in the included scenario back in '85 and this was incredibly popular.. Genevieve and Meh'lindi were two of the most popular lore characters back before black library was a thing. Sororitas have been around since 2e and have been popular for 30 years. Sisters of silence became so. This is despite limited model ranges for both. The most popular novel series have included mixed groups and strong female characters (Gaunt, Cain, Eisenhorn to name the most high profile). Nobody has an issue with "female characters in the game / lore" - if they did so, they would have had this problem decades ago and never got into Warhammer in the first place.
@Ayahuasca98 "We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray through miniatures, art and storytelling so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. And if you feel the same way, wherever and whoever you are, we’re glad you are part of the Warhammer community. If not, you will not be missed.” Therefore, if you dare question what the female Custodes are, then you are a misogynist, racist, biased, bigoted, right-wing fascist incel. And you are no longer welcome in the community. For the Adeptus Sororitas Rumor engine: "Unambiguous, a little gothic, probably carried by someone with breathtakingly outdated views on inclusivity..." GW is full of progressive DEI political activists and perverts. As for perverts, look at what they did with Age of Sigmar. Example of what a way to humiliate heroism and masculinity compare Captain Garro in the novella "The Flight of Eisenstein" and in the novella "Garro".
I started 40k back when I discovered it when I was 18. This was right when 8th edition was coming into its own, when most of the factions had their codexes. I fell in love with the universe, the lore, the art, the models... and then 9th edition happened. In my head, I thought that oh, this is cool, I can have four or five years to play the edition and build up my army... But then I started to hate where 9th was going. And then 10th happened. The game got more watered down, more homogenous. It wasnt the game I had fallen in love with, even just after a few years. A year ago I bought all the 3rd edition books. Every book that had anything to do with that time period, codexes, supplements, chapter approved... i love those books, I love looking through them. It makes me nostalgic for a time I never got to live through, and probably never will. I got priced out of the hobby eventually. GWs constant price increases, and the fact that I live an hour away from the nearest hobby store, meant that I only really got to play the game a couple of times a month. Combine this with the fact that the "friends" I had made at the hobby store ended up mostly ostrizizing me, because I wasnt able to keep up with the new releases and new rules, and I ended up leaving the hobby for the most part. I'd live to go back to the hobby. Back to that feeling I had when I first discovered the universe, back when I gave my nightbringer model wings because it looked awsome... back before tournaments were the only thing people seemed to care about.
🤔I myself got into 40K at the tail-end of 2nd Edition, before we got the truly *_Grim Dark_*_ Art & Paint-styles started in the (lovely) 3rd Edition Rule Book (◼◻Black Templars Cover by J. Blanche) and even back _then_ (in 2E) the Art style was *_Gritty_*_ -&- _*_Dark......_* but now, it def. looks like it's on the path to be almost unrecognizable from it's conceptual *Grim Dark* aesthetic, and is starting to more resemble the Art style of that (ill-fated) book series 'WARHAMMER KIDS' (i.e. completely antithetical to its Setting & Roots. ) [▶4:42❌ vs. 11:00✅] North, just some CC (++Construct-Criticism++) please *Screen Shot* the _Entire _*_Image_* (so Top is not Cut off) so we in turn ca *_Poach_*_ them_ for our heretical Pic Albums *[};-)=•☁* (* or did you get these from The Warhammer+ Vault - in which case I understand completely if they didn't come _Whole._ (?)
I always wanted 40k to go mainstream to bring more people into the hobby because I hoped it would cause prices to go down. Man, that was dumb on my part.
I’m as OG as you get(almost!), I started out with Warhammer fantasy second edition! Recently someone said to me that fantasy was shut down because it was just another ‘generic’ fantasy setting and they could not believe what I told them about what it used to be like. Basically go back and look at the old John Blanche and Ian millar art, that WAS Warhammer. Punk rock Amazon’s and goblin fanatics, bizarre chaos war bands and dreamlike city scapes straight out of a seventies prog rock album cover! Warhammer used to be a bloody fever dream of weirdness!
Man I was 8 when I got the rulebook with those iconic images. You could flick through this tome for days and think about this vast, dark universe. It was just great
I've spoken to a lot of people on this subject. People disagree about when exactly "peak" was, based on when they started and what they like about the hobby. But everyone agrees peak is history and we're riding the coat-tails. Edit: for me it was back in the 90s with 2nd & 3rd. The models weren't as good (except for Eldar who still have the same models...) but the _feel_ was just so much better.
The peak was 3rd and for a reason I rarely see written, during 3rd GW replaced metal minis with plastics that were significantly cheaper. Tactical squads went from $55 AUD to $35 AUD and the plastics were better. Not just fluff and gaming wise, 3rd felt like GW actually gave a shit about us. It was 100% the golden age of 40k.
@@danieldare9245 I'd agree it "felt like GW gave a shit". It felt, during that period, that it was collaborative. Less "us and them" and more of a big "us". I think a _lot_ of that, now I look back, was down to Paul Sawyer being in charge of WD and being the "human face" of GW as a result. His enthusiasm and passion was infectious and WD felt more like a buddy showing you cool things than the corporate sanitised promo pamphlet it's become.
40k hasnt been the same since about 5th edition. 3rd and 4th were the best IMO but after 5 the codex creep kicked into overdrive, the fomo and competetive side became everything and narrative was dusted. Im a full convert to Grimdark Future at this point, and not just for the cost. This is a universe i can work wonders in.
What does punk even mean? Because from where I'm standing it just seems that the setting has matured a little with age. I like some changes and dislike others.
Peak competition was 5th edition. GW does NOT listen to outside testers, and they have not in 15 plus years. This is why they release a codex and it gets BANNED in the SAME month until it is corrected. The points are guesswork, and gameplay is cumbersome. Fun? Goofy? Try First Edition. Balanced? Try 5th. Want to play a MESS? Play 10th. There is POOR balance. Our group has been playing for 20-35 years, and we ALL play One Page Rules now.
The most fun I ever had was playing the old third edition Black Templars codex. When it got killed and the Templars got folded into the Space Marines codex the fun of playing them went away. I tried playing tenth edition for a while but I found myself tweaking and gotcha chasing. The last game of 40K I ever played was one where I slaughtered my opponent with a gotcha thing. I pounded his army to dust, and felt absolutely awful about it. Switched to OPR and never looked back. I played a three game OPR campaign a couple Saturdays ago and lost. It came down to the last dice role and I had huge fun all the way through. Best day of gaming I think I've ever had.
GW constantly nerfing stuff and not fixing rules for models because they don't care if they sell is why I play OPR now. Got me back into the hobby full force.
I heard it said once about 40K, just on the title icon: The old one looked hand-crafted, one-off and made specifically. The new one looks like it was stamped out of a machine press on a production line.
Talk to a Tournament player...fun is nowhere in the equation...and GW is on board with that...to GW the Tournament player is the only person that matters and they have balanced the fun right out of the game..lately just taking my models out of the case is a boring chore...because I know that weather I'm at a Tournament or not I'm going to end up with some tard wearing a Sports Jersey with his sponsors on it...but this is how GW wants it...these days if you twist my arm to play its with 8th edition or with OPR....and GW keeps riding their DR Strangelove nuke all the way to ground zero....once the Space Marine 2 Tourist get bored the company is going to be in trouble...and it is deserved.
This is a snapshot and highly local, but my boys are both in the hobby and at high school. There's a "Warhammer club" at that school. When SM2 came out, they were turning people away. Now they're down to one or two more than they had pre-SM2. I've not observed this directly, but my eldest says that people come, realise it's "hard work" to assemble and paint the models and learn the rules, and lose interest. Again, this is local to where I am (Yorkshire), in one high school, and I can't say whether the same thing is replicated elsewhere in the hobby - but if it _is_ then maybe the "SM2 tourists" surge of interest is already close to over.
@@Daemonik I think we’re getting close to the end of this phase, and I’m not sure if you’ve noticed, but before SM 2 launched, the stores in my area were practically empty. In Texas, we have both a Warhammer Citadel and a dedicated Warhammer store, and on weekends, they were dead. It seems like we’re heading right back to that. I’ve said this before, but I think they need to split the 40k rules into two versions. One should be a casual version for players like us, and the other a more competitive, Chapterhouse-approved version for the hardcore players. The casual version would focus on fun, letting people play with the models they enjoy, with rules centered around rolling dice and moving models. Meanwhile, the tournament version could still be released every few years, but the casual version should remain stable to attract new players. This way, it can act as a gateway for newcomers who might eventually want to dive deeper into the competitive rules....I know it will never happen but one can dream
@@Jeff-ne1lh I frequent FLGS rather than GW, last went in a GW at the start of the year, and left within a couple of minutes due to being dry-humped to buy AoS boxes when I went in to buy a paint - but the store was 2 staff and one customer aside from me at the time, so hardly bustling. I agree about the rules split - how that would work in practice, I don't know. Splitting the rules could cause a whole host of problems - where things work different ways. I can see tournament players trying to enforce "the real rules" in casual settings and casual players just giving up and going along despite not wanting to - just because of the general character differences between the two types of player. A tournament player tends to be more forceful, where a casual player just wants a quiet life and a fun time, and will have a bad time then not come back. I can imagine also a lot of clubs especially where members only want "matched play, tournament rules" to ensure "fairness" rather than just doing a cool scenario. I miss scenarios. Epic last stands, ambushes, lopsided battles, special objectives, escort quests, assassinations etc. My best game ever was a last stand where my eldar got overrun by endless waves of bugs back in 3rd. It was just _cool_ and _fun_ and totally *not* "fair" or "balanced". Maybe just have a single flexible ruleset (the "casual") that gets updates once a year and codexes otherwise apply as printed, then also have an additional "matched play" add-on (digital download, free) which updates 4-6 times a year with points values and matched play rules / clarifications, codex updates etc that simply don't occur in 99.9% of more casual games. Then they can have specific individual tournament packs the same way they currently do as an add-on to the add-on. I dunno. I'm rambling. I'd just like to _want to play 40k_ again, like I used to. I used to look forward to the chance to play it. Currently, I just don't. I don't want to go through a bunch of PDFs every time I play to figure out what rules have changed, and rewrite a list because points have changed again. I don't want to _then_ try to figure out what the opponent has and what stack of gotchas they're going to spring on me. I don't care if it's not been "balanced" twice in the last month. I just wanna roll dice and play space fantasy soldiers. So now I just generally "play 40k" with OPR rules instead.
@@Jeff-ne1lhpeople always say this but the narrative option is always the LEAST popular play style/ruleset. GW has tried it multiple times ending with it going no where. Players prefer a more concise, balanced (attempted at least) ruleset over a hodgepodge of fluff and narrative rules.
I been playing my 5th - 7th edition xenos books in 30K and I've been having a ball. Some of the 30K guys don't like it and, say I'm ruining their hobby. I tell them I've been playing for almost 30 years and, I never forced someone into a game, so your hobby is safe.
I would have no problem playing against you doing a great crusade narrative battle for fun. There were some good third party rules for some xenos in first edition hh. Just out of curiosity, how do you handle reactions?
Right now I've been playing lost Tyranids. No hive fleet, just pod clusters that landed on random plants after drifting for millions of years. I use core warlord traits. No army reaction. The shooting reactions are pretty much useless. The movement reactions are awesome. Assault reactions are ok. They are outclassed in almost everything but psychic powers. They lose most of the time but everyone playing has a lot of fun playing against something new.
This made me feel bittersweet. I’m from the US, so warhammer wasn’t a staple growing up. Sure, i still heard of it, but not like for you guys in the UK. Now I’ve got the models and the lore, but it’s not the same. The models are better, but at what cost? A lot of video games are similiar to this phenomenon you’ve explained. Where the “narrative” shifts from where it began. In the very beginning of Overwatch, the characters were ALL incredibly overpowered. They felt unique until it slowly became an Esport and every character became watered down. If I could hop into the past for a day, it’d be really cool to spend it in a Games Workshop back in the day.
I am a fanfic writer of Warhammer... I write for the Imperial Guard. I love it, but now i feel disillusioned. How am i supposed to follow the lore which is needed for me to follow the guidelines, when they change it constantly with retcons and reintroducing back things that doesn't makes sense. I afraid that as years go by, they get more and more focused on competitive competition than actual lores... The combat patrols is a pain. When you can buy massive armies in the past.
I’m not even a particularly old hand at 40K. I got into it in mid/late 7th in high school, but I’ve had friends get into 40K in the last couple years and feels like I’m having to explain a long lost age to them half the time as I explain stuff that just doesn’t exist anymore. Oh that cool character/vehicle/unit you watched a lore video on? Yeah that’s in legends now so it isn’t going to get updated and the rules might disappear next edition completely. Hey this specific interaction used to have some really interesting rules that just don’t exist anymore. Those guys used to have some really interesting rules, now they are just kind of good at hitting stuff. All those models on myself I’ve never played? Well one of those was renegades and heretics, but that’s a dead faction now unless I want to play spiky guard and those ork units are in legends with some pretty bad rules even for friendly games so I don’t really put them in most list. I’ve not even been playing for a full decade yet, but the game is borderline unrecognizable to what got me into it.
Watch Heavy Metal 1981. To me that has always been the same or similar aesthetic to classic 40K. The raw nature of the animation, the grotesqueness of the art style. The visual brutality that made you uncomfortable but so intrigued at the same time. That was peak identity for the 40K setting. The is modern crap is just Gothic Starwars.
Current 40k is so watered down…there’s zero tactical play anymore when movement mattered. The game is effectively MTG with models with gotcha moments. It’s terrible. Happy to play older editions or OPR.
I very much agree that it was the 'best' Warhammer 40K, but for me I have to acknowledge the nostalgia factor. It was the edition I came in on (3rd edition) and I quit at 7th edition. Although I haven't actually played Horus Heresy, it feels like it was written for fans of 3rd-5th edition, and they clearly threw the concept of balance out the airlock.
Making the most money yet not peak. I assumed tournament focus was on the logic, that you could put the prices up and they will buy heavy and frequently no matter how bad your game is, no matter how many changes you make, no matter anything as they just want to win. Say there is a better game or the genral market is in a slump or the player base gets older and different in purchasing habbits change, the tournament player just react purchases to you and GW can play them like a fiddle.
I had to take a step back after trying to get back into 40K..Reading the rules was like reading stereo instructions...it was just so dull. When a few friends tried walking me through the rules during a game, I just got tired of listening to the constant drone of rules and the "Gotcha" moments that to me, were just frustrating. I'm much happier just building and painting..
Id be interested on your take on Trench Crusade. They even have John Blanche involved in making art for them now, and just raised 3.3 million on kickstarter! Check out the completely free campaign rules too, its made by the same guy who did Mordheim. Still early but it seems a lot more soulful and creativity focused than GWs current direction.
What I loved about the old Warhammer 40k art, when I started playing in 2nd edition was the way it showed the armies I collected how they would actually look in the grim reality of the Warhammer 40k universe. It felt like the models were just an approximation of how they actually looked like and that those armies were a bit diconnected from the actual lore. Sure, the codex covers, especially the Ultramarines one looked goofy and the modern ones actually look alot better, but the black/white art was just so much better. You had bright red armour, lush green bases and clean paintjobs on the minis, although you knew that the world those armies existed in was nothing like that. Now the art more closely matches what the models look like. Its like the models are actually looking like they would in the real world of Warhammer 40k, which is odd to say the least. There are not enough details, not enough horror and everything is just too clean. They try to show horror, gore and aweful acts of violence, but the scenes end up looking like someone was building a diorama with the miniatures. It does not feel alive, it feels soulless. There are some nice pieces of art from time to time, but the gritty awefulness is gone. Edit: 19:35 thats just because you are old, like me. I am almost 40 years old and have little time left in the afternoon to play video games, so I want to have the best possible time. When I go online for a multiplayer session at 7pm, I am playing against people that are home from school or universety for 4h already and are totally in the zone. if you know what I mean. They play the game far more often, are much quicker, know the maps alot better and have unlocked more equipment.
And if you write fanfic about Warhammer like me and other making shows like TTS and animators that loved the franchise... That is even difficult for us to even show the world how grimdark our setting can be... When GW began the ban game.
Game balance doesn't exist in reality. There is no such thing. Even chess, checkers and go. I also get where you and your mate are coming from. I've been playing since 1986 or so. Now it's boring to play. It's not a game for everybody. If you try to make it that way and "fair" you're going to fail.
Ah,yes, the 3rd ed.Eldar Codex, i still own it to this day, and the cover still captivates me,after all these years. Reason i started an Eldar army back then was due to the aamazing artwork and fascination towards these space elves creatures and their continent size ships. Edit: as an artist myself,i know for a fact,as i had an art teacher back then who was behind the G.W. Codex covers, Gw no longer employs many of the old artist guard in house. They did it to save themselves more money. It´s the same for the sculptors. Back then,in the good olden times, sculptors in gw made their minis by hand, and molded them for casting into metal. Later with technology advancing plastic became a thing, and mid 2012,onwards, all sculptors in G.W. had to get on with the times and learn to use their Z-brush like sculpting programs or they were shown the door out. That´s why,and i speak for me, G.W. minis no longer retain the old Grimdark-punk feel as they did,new people came,people who didn´t get the overall Warhammer aesthetic right,nor that the company itself was made by passionate nerds for nerds. As of now, Warhammer feels more like Playmobil for manbabies, rather than Warhammer.
3.5 edition was peak 40k. I played some 9th edition and couldn't keep up with the seasonal rules changes as a causal player. I decided later to not play 10th and go back to when the game was fun, fluffy, and to the point. Been happy ever since.
I'm someone new coming into the hobby and I really don't know what to think about this (so here's a bit of a ramble of my own, hope you don't mind). I'm a video gamer, I love tactics and I play games because I want to play games, not to be 5up3r L33tz0r best gamer ever. I was around on the original CoD4 MP when that first came out and I was part of the exploration of the new frontier of the internet. I enjoy playing games because I like the challenge, I like exploring stories and I like solving problems with the tools I have (yes, I'm looking at starting with Tau) because for me, that's fun. I mentioned in a previous video that I'm a sim racer, and whilst I really enjoy racing for the competition and mastering of a skill, I hate the 'meta-chasing', but unfortunately that's just something that comes with a competitive aspect of something. Esports overall has good aspects, but I can definitely see that there are negative aspects which it's brought into everything (min-maxing, meta chasing, etc.). That means that I'll never be in the top 10% of racers but whatever, I'm happy racing with people around my skill level and if I win, it's because I've had a good day. Great. However, there are times where things absolutely DO need to be balanced. Developers releasing patches for stuff like Baldur's Gate for example won't always be to prevent people from having fun, it's to fix unintended behaviours. I'm not saying that's all the time, but these patches aren't the fun police coming to shit on your enjoyment of stuff! For example, if I'm playing Cyberpunk in a party of 5 and someone figures out a way to work the game so that in any encounter all they have to do is fire their weapon once and suddenly everyone who we don't like is dead, it stops being fun for everyone else. In the Software Development Lifecycle (SDLC), this results in a patch being released to balance it back and make it more fun for everyone else involved. I feel like you flip-flopped a bit on this topic in this vid by saying if you're getting bodied and are sat there for an hour waiting for a turn to end it's shit and not fun, but you're also saying that you want people to be able to find these game breaking 'exploits' which wouldn't ever really be patched out because of the nature of the world at the time. I'm lucky that one of the players I'm playing Cyberpunk Red with is a Warhammer fan and player and has run through a combat patrol game with me and I really enjoyed it, so he's printed off a Tau Combat Patrol proxy for me to put together so I can see if it's something I want to invest some money in. I really enjoyed that game and I love the lore that's coming out, I love the thinking I have to do, I love the absurdity of it all and I can see the stories that I will make by playing around in this universe. For me, there's loads of potential there for me to - say it with me - HAVE FUN. On the other hand, whilst I do agree with you sometimes that certain things need to be gatekept at times, I feel like if I were to come to your hobby store and say "I've just started, I'm looking for a few old heads to play a game or two with me, help me learn a bit more and have a bit of fun", I'll get turned down because I've "just started the hobby and 10th edition isn't nearly as good as it used to be because back in my day...", and the kinds of people I DO want to play with (the grey beards you allude to), are just going to dismiss me out of hand because they're trying to gatekeep their 'history' so to speak. I never knew what 3rd edition was like and I'm likely never going to. I'm starting off with Tau Combat Patrol where I've 'acquired' some models, I'm using the 40k app on my phone to get the rules and datasheets and get started, and then I'll be getting the 10th edition rulebook and Tau codex and then I'll be wanting to play some games, make a few stories and have fun. Key word there being 'wanting'. I feel like what I'll end up doing is being stuck between the new "10th edition sweaty try-hard esports kids who want to min-max everything" (whom I don't want to play too much with to begin with) and the old grey-beard types who will look at me as if I am one of those new bloods and just want to protect their little bubble, which will leave me completely isolated, disenfranchised and disengaged with the hobby and I'll just stop playing. There's no way I can win here the way I see it (I'm aware of the irony here...) - In all likelihood, I'll need to move away from my friend for work so my channel into the hobby proper is something I'll lose and if it's something I want to carry on with, I'll be forced to find new people to play with which is fine, but with the way you've been talking about things, I don't see any positive outcomes here.
I was in tenth grade when Rogue Trader came out and I been playing the whole time. I agree with everything and have the same issues. My whole group moved to One Page Rules during 9th edition and the only reason I am doing tenth is because I got my 14 year old kid into it and want him to experience the game as the current edition for him. I wouldn’t mind it so much if they just sat on the edition for longer like 5 years. This 3 year cycle totally sucks and the rules changing/catering to tournaments is bad, in my perspective. The cycling of rules is what pushes people away, and once they younger players have jobs/families/kids etc where they aren’t playing 3 games a week, they will see that it sucks when you play once a month - so play 5 games then they change the rules.
Have to say, I'm with you in your opinions on games. I'm very much a "single player supremacy" type person. Maybe because I'm a bit of a misanthrope and theres nothing I want LESS in my "relaxation time" than OTHER PEOPLE, especially complete strangers. I enjoy Dark Souls, Elden Ring and especially Bloodborne (favourite game of all time, got me through a rough part of my life), but of the online/multiplayer aspect was completely removed, I would not care at all.
I am also into various warhammers for about 25 years, started with fantasy, then 40k, then HH. And it definitaly shifts. And now, as an adult, I have my responsibilities and I am just tired to keep up with constant errata, releases and everything. I can´t even count (and I don´t want to) how many times I´ve bought a book for 40k, managed to get like a game or two if lucky and then the book was rotated out. Traitor Legions suplement comes to mind as well as the Khorne Daemonkin and the first World Eaters codex. I would argue that the same fact goes for Warcraft... just look at art for the W1-W3 or even early WoW. And look at the recent one. It lost it´s balls, same as 40k, pretty much to cater broader audience, which is good bussiness wise ofc, but it inevitably gets watered down.
Peak 40k is now Necromunda. The punk, the baroque exaggeration, the over-the-top Blanchitsu, the metal. It's so good. That's really the beauty of the setting: that all those different vibes can coexist in their own corners at the same time.
I played a game of 3rd edition fantasy a few years ago. On turn one, I cast a spell that killed half of all living creatures on the table, including my own troops. Unbalanced beyond belief but fun as hell. Cast another spell which would move randomly every turn destroying everything it touched, soldiers, trees, houses. I couldn't find the vortex card so we used a chokolate cookie. There was a lot of maneuvering during that game, I can promise. Point is, my most fun games were never balanced, but made fun through narrative events and sheer sportsmanship. And Monty Python quotes do help. It is known.
I've played since 1st edition. I had 12 armies of 2000+ at the start of 7th edition & my bestie had 8 or 9, now i've got 6 left, my mate has 2 & eBay got the rest. Ultimately we'll end up with some nostalgia pieces for our shelves & get rid of the rest, unthinkable to me only 6-7 years ago but it just feels like something is missing from 40k now & I don't think it's coming back (whatever it is). GW relied on the old "grey-beards" to do their recruiting for them for years so they could paywall their marketing, i'll be curious to see what happens now we're all leaving in droves.
The Bolt Thrower album was new. It was AWFUL, and we LOVED it. There was no glimmer of hope for any faction in 40K, even and including Chaos. We argued over the arcane vehicle destruction rules, wishing they could just use toughness and wounds, and when we got just that, we complained about that. Space Wolves weren't entirely a meme yet, Dark Angels had an edge without being edgelords, and Ol' One Eye was a problem. The golden age.
Hey I was to grow a steady gaming group of about 12 guys that all play regularly literally everyone in my work break room I work in a metal factory hard labor these are all grizzled tough guys and we all now play 40k at least 1 or two times a month and have tournament with pooled prizes non of these guys we're that I to sci Fi or gaming or even modelling. It's up to people to get new players. Maybe off topic but there a positive success story.
Loved 40k as a kid and decided to pick it up again in my 30s. And it just dosnt have the charm.anymore... basicly it has no grit anymore. Iv moved to trench crusade. Minus all the discord drama (that I intentionally ignored) one look at the artwork and minis will spark some grim dark creativity again
🤔I myself got into 40K at the tail-end of 2nd Edition, before we got the truly *_Grim Dark_*_ Art & Paint-styles started in the (lovely) 3rd Edition Rule Book (◼◻Black Templars Cover by J. Blanche) and even back _then_ (in 2E) the Art style was *_Gritty_*_ -&- _*_Dark......_* but now, it def. looks like it's on the path to be almost unrecognizable from it's conceptual *Grim Dark* aesthetic, and is starting to more resemble the Art style of that (ill-fated) book series 'WARHAMMER KIDS' (i.e. completely antithetical to its Setting & Roots. ) [▶4:42❌ vs. 11:00✅] North, just some CC (++Construct-Criticism++) please *Screen Shot* the _Entire _*_Image_* (so Top is not Cut off) so we in turn ca *_Poach_*_ them_ for our heretical Pic Albums *[};-)=•☁* (* or did you get these from The Warhammer+ Vault - in which case I understand completely if they didn't come _Whole._ (?) (** Great Vid BTW;-)
I started in 98/99 and it was the aesthetic and lore that pulled me in. I'm a massive Necron collector, and I lament the changing of their lore and the dark cosmic horror of the C'tan.
I agree with most of your points, especially new 40k lacking a soul compared to old 40k. However I would disagree with your comments that the norm is now to be a bit of an ass, list tailor, bend the rules etc. The overall mindset is definitely more competitive focused but that doesnt mean it's more negative, I tend to have great experiences with the people I come across, even if the game isn’t as good anymore. In fact list tailoring never happens because people often want to test out lists for tournaments.
While I gotten into it relatively recently, I started lore first and qas drawn by the extreme grimdark of the setting, it reminded me of old anime/comics/ ova series with it's attitude, at it's darkest stretching into genocyber or devilman territories. Because of this I researched abit and fell in love with specifically john blanches art, that being like definitive warhammer and am sad when I see it stretch into renaissance art when it's closer to even something like a geiger, it's supposed to be esoteric and vague/ larger than life, literal interpretation can ruin that. Whenever I see warhammer media, what I really get melancholic about is the lack of variety, where while fairly pleasing, the often 3d, realistic animations don't fit for me. I wish they would get people like gendy tartakofski or some European animation teams to create their own warhammer projects.
I love 40k lore, even if Modern day Games Workshop is going full WOTC, and going Creatively bankrupt, all that amazing lore and the great books and stores still and always will exist. Just like Star Wars's Extended universe, Disney may have chosen to say the extended universe it's no longer cannon, I do not choose to agree with them, Timmothy Zhan's books with Mara Jade Skywalker is still cannon for me. 40k lore will always be fantastic, grimdark, gripping stories No matter what Games Workshop does. Grimdark Feudal Punk yep! That's perfectly said North! This is why 40k lore is my avenue into the hobby because it's the one thing GW can't do anything to. My head cannon will always be mine.
I started to play in 3rd edition when I was about 13, it was rough, challenging, transgressive and darkly fascinating. Many people looked at it and were actively repulsed and there was something very compelling in this morbid unapologetic setting. It got me thinking about art and story telling in different ways. It's wasn't everyone's cup of tea, 40k today is super polished, slick and cool and razor focused on the share price. I guess today's analogy is skibidi toilet and I wonder how long it'll take for it to get appropriated and watered down to be palatable to the "total addressable market".
One thing that bears mentioning is the logo change. From the arcane block of stone to the sleek, over-designed, bland thing we have now. Looking back at it I think that was when GW decided to abandon what made 40k unique for the sake of mainstream audience.
I agree so much with the aesthetic thing - I absolutely love those old codices with the moody, off-model grayscale art. Although tbf the oldhammer crowd says the same stuff about the switch to middlehammer grimdark. I think they have a greater claim over the punk aesthetic with the 2000AD influences etc. 3e is more goth imo, especially with all the renaissance and baroque art inspiration - not to mention the straight up cybergoth stuff you get with the Dark Eldar. I also remember the 3e codexes would feature conversions and hobby inspiration, which really created this sense that the game was about self-expression and creativity as much as anything else. Now you kinda feel like they're just product brochures.
It happens to many hobbies. 40k, Dungeons & Dragons, Vampire: The Masquerade... Damn, I still love my 6th edition Army Book for Dark Elves. 4th edition was also cool, way more punk and somewhat retro, but 6th edition was the shit. Now grab a Vampire: The Masquerade book from 2nd or Revised edition and compare in to current 5th edition, the style is so different like it's a totally different game. I'm afraid I know why it happened. Not enough of gatekeeping.
The videogame analogy is spot on. Look at Modern Warfare 2, the 2009 original. It was a mess when it came to balance, loads of exploits, insane killstreaks, quickscopers.... and everyone absolutely loved it. Look at the same franchise now. Weapons all balanced and samey, crappy killstreaks and coddled by SBMM to keep everyone at the same level with no way to really improve or level to aspire to. It's boring and frustrating.
Every damn word of this vid is spot on. I still play but i only go up to 9th and outright refuse to go any further. The sad part is I got my friends into the hobby and i have a buddy who just cant understand why I dont want to go further and this rant is every word how ive been feeling about 40k. Dont get me worry I still love and play it from time to time but only in my friend group or solo (playing both sides at a home table). As for the warhammer in video games. Im 50/50 right now cause theres some amazing ones out there like Space Marine series or Boltgun. Theyre there but you are right about its bring in the wrong type of people into the hobby and its just watered it down to much.
VAR sucked the soul out of football for me, it’s no longer beautiful, it’s clinical. It’s a perfect analogy for modern 40k, it’s like having VAR for every step.
I feel like Warhammer used to be bleak. It feels a bit too heroic now. Might just be because my pals all play space marines/sisters/custodes /inquisition.
Just try to imagine modern GW giving Boltthrower, a death metal band, a solid thumbs up and permission to use game art for their album covers. I've tried, but for the life of me, I can't. And the moment I stopped being able to, I knew things were done for me in terms of investment.
The ONLY fun game I had during 10th, believe it or not, was during the reign of early Eldar. I’d entered a tournament, and brought my nids. I only had the stuff I thought was cool, nothing else, so it was incredibly unoptimised for any army honestly. First opponent was a bloke who brought the most online meta BS eldar list you could imagine, almost purely fire prisms and the like. I absolutely squashed him with minimal losses lmao. I was even running a sporocyst! That thing is AWFUL! Everyone is so focused on meta and stuff that they think they can just beat everything, and as soon as they find some who plays to have fun and imagine the game as an actual battle and story, not a competitive match, they lose. 40k is genuinely dying if everyone thinks they can play this way, fun needs to be prioritised again imo
The best example of this "gathca 40k balance" is current 2024 World Eaters. You play invocation and Angron, and if you get turn 1, the game is as good as yours. You don't take either, and you're tying your sword arm to your legs.
Bolt Action is affordable and doesn’t have a massive advantage for the first-turn player. Trench Crusade is grimdark, cheap as dirt, and has a slick ruleset that doesn’t get in the way of play. Mordheim still has a massive following and endless campaign fun. Skirmish Ragers is a fun and affordable zombie skirmish game with extremely characterful models. Flames of War is great for company level combined arms fun. I’ve played and enjoy all of these. I left 40K in 10th after playing it since Rogue Trader because it just wasn’t fun. It was clear there had been almost no playtesting and the rules were somehow bizarrely complex while the gameplay remained shallow and stale. I’m opting out of the endless loop of pointless rules changes brought in to justify forcing people to buy a new ruleset every three years, garbage codexes, a constant spurting fountain of Marines releases and the squatting of units that they don’t know how to balance. GW is the epitome of arrogantly believing you’re too big to fail.
Cut-throat competitiveness IS fun to some people. Fluffy, narrative play is fun to others. Neither are right or wrong ways to play. You simply need to ensure you and your opponent are on the same page.
Started at the beginning of 3rd and happy to have witnessed my personal glory days of 40k. Now it is just trying to become another science fiction property for casual consumption.
Peak 40k is 40k, there is nothing else, anything else isn’t 40k. Just like how any actual fan of Star Wars differentiates between Disney Star Wars and Star Wars. When something is altered and more or less unrecognisable can it be considered that which it originally was. World building is like creating a character, once you’ve given it a name, sex, race and backstory then establish it, if you then change any of those things after it is set in stone it ceases to be what it originally was. Peak 40k has stayed reasonably consistent now however aside from a handful of things modern 40k doesn’t feel like 40k. At least with old world they didn’t completely subvert and undermine the setting to introduce age of sigmar they allowed it to end completely separating the two settings. Modern 40k is age of sigmar without the separation.
I'm only 5 min in. Great vid. That tiny little underwhelming Dark Eldar codex gives me chills. Seeing those strange plastic kabalites with their huge heads. Fascinating that's a butter-zone for some. Wasn't that the era when GW very nearly folded?
Balance had killed the random fun for orks. Ork players were arguably the lifeblood for keeping heads cooled in enjoying all aspects of the hobby from kit bashing to painting. Now ork players are not the same from the crusty neu 40k.
I stayed in the lore but out of tabletop for years. I was worried about the game once the art style drastically changed with Gulliman's return. Nu Marines and yellow Custodes set off alarm bells. Much like MTG, if you don't play the meta instead of making a fun list, forget it. It reminds me almost of Tarkov's trajectory. Became sweaty, too corporate, and a cash grab. I would not be surprised if 40k becomes Veilguard in space storywise and or Marvel in space in the future.
100% with the list sharing thing, I can't stand showing up for a game and my opponent looks over what I have then finishes thier list, that's meta play in my book.
I started playing at the talle end of 7th. I liked eighth. I definitely agree its slipping. I refuse to play with people who arent willing too play narrative now. The world of 40k is what makes the table top so special
I think North, that when you said 40K is inspirationally bankrupt, you are nearly right. But I'd correct that and say its creatively bankrupt. They have this amazing setting, with characters unlike anywhere else and they haven't a clue what to so with any of it or them. They are cashing in on something and characters that were made 10, 15 or even 25 years ago and what they've made after that is, with a few exceptions, at best "ok".
I've played since Rogue Trader, and I agree with you and your mate. The video game industry has hurt the hobby, and we are missing community and respect for creativity. 3rd edition was the game Edited to add I love the term feudal punk lol
The issue aswell with game that are that old is that ppl in general just have a better understanding of rules making things more optimised. V11 need to throw a roling bowl into all of that. Remaking/Rethinking Everything. Remaking the whole scale
How I much hate this: Only a person that is so bad that he can’t win a fair game, wants imbalance. What are you? 45+yo dinosaurs that can’t handle losing? Can you only have fun winning an unfair game, where strategy and skill doesn’t matter? Pathetic! (Everything else in this video I agree with)
I'm in 40K since the 3rd edition. It really change alot in rules and style and the way it's beeing played. You are right with many things you said. I'm still in it but more with the story and painting. :) But I still play here and there. Perhaps one should play with old rules. It's a possibility.
It’s an unfortunate inevitability when something has existed that long with continuous content. We get older and new people come in. Still, the older editions are still out there. Just ignore the new lore.
Never played 40k, I am a Fantasy man through and through since the 80's. Every time I try and articulate these thoughts I just get accused of being an old neck beard, that the old models are rubbish and that I have no place in the modern gaming world.
40k died in 9th edition. It's gutting but nobody cares. We're just the grumpy old men to them. Trench crusade has saved the hobby for me. I'm so excited to start my warbands. Already making terrain ready for the rulebook next year.
I even felt this coming in late 9th to 10th. With the whole Cavill debacle and stuff, xyz. How it feels more bland and when I look at the old lore and artwork which is what really got me into it. Now, it just feels like it's not grimdark or I guess punk... news to me swell lol. And to be fair, 9th really isn't a good example of it looking at the other editions. Just started playing and collecting during lockdowns. I have 2 smaller 1k ish armies of Drukarki and Custodes but have stopped altogether collecting. Not only that, but the price for their actual models is bs and not reflective of their simpler more accessible rules. Trench Crusade is here...
Balancing is a term they use. It has nothing to do with balance. Balancing a game to be absolutely fair is not possible. Even in Chess...white goes first . Balancing as a word is used to change the parameters of the game faster then the people can adapt to it. Players establish a "meta". Army xy is considered the strongest . Developer nerfs units in army xy. Now army z is considered the best. They sell models that way. Do you guys really think Dark Angels are ,as an example , considered one of the best armies now by chance? It just so happens that they are getting a x mas box filled with their strongest units. This isn't a coincidence. There are no coincidences . Gw had adopted the practices of Magic the Gathering. And no, it wasn't different in 3rd ed.No. The only difference was that there was no way to digitally distribute rules on such a scale. But "Balancing" was already a term.
@@LD-wm7jm how so? I was just looking at starting up BA with the new edition. Played a few sampler games in 2nd edition and liked it, just bought the 3rd ed rulebook and was gonna sit down and go through it, and pick an army literally next week when I have some time!
@Daemonik they are partially releasing content like the army books and have said every theatre book up to v3 is not canon. They're going to implement tiny changes and sell you a slightly different book, and they have made multiple units like snipers simply useless.
@@LD-wm7jm So they're going with the same sort of "subscription model" as the 40k codices and supplements? 🤦🏻♂️ Appreciate the warning. I'll proceed with caution rather than jumping in the way I was kinda planning on. _sigh_
Things started to die for me when the Eldar and Dark Eldar, names were changed for copyright reasons. That’s when we could tell the white collar talentless middle managers took over.
yep
Drukari tried to rip off the name of the druki from fantasy
I haven't even managed to finish writing a single army list since 10th edition was introduced. I came back to the game in 9th, playing CSM with the very weak, vanilla 8th ed Codex. I got tabled every game. No fun. Despite objectives, which are a good thing, the game is won by wiping out units in one turn. Lethality is the metric. The only way to remove an enemy unit from an objective is to destroy it. 3rd edition had many faults, the AP mechanism being one of them, but it was far more a game of movement.
The free wargear rules has effectively made some weapons largely unseen. The iconic bolter armed Marine is rarely seen, because pistol and chainsword is far more deadly.
Nearly all games are now played in ruins, mostly in itc layout. It's just so dull.
@@Locknut61I loved the AP mechanic from 3rd I still play this edition Till Today and have a game with a new guy tomorrow 🤝🏻
Is that fair, though? "Change the name or get sued and spend millions of dollars and years in courtrooms" is understandably an issue of concern. Hate the people that bring the stupid lawsuits, not the people that genuinely don't want their lives and companies destroyed by them.
Literally my entire life after 7 years old I have been involved in 40k. It's so hard to explain to people how different it is now. It's so clean and boring. I show people one of my several 3rd edition rulebooks and most of them immediately get it as their eyes go wide and they look at the Eternity Gate.
It's horrible when I imagine how much more diluted it will be in the future. I feel like Horus peering into the future amd seeing the horrors of the imperium. And if thats the future, then let the galaxy burn.
When CSM doesnt have dreadnoughts and Admech doesnt have servitors, you gotta ask wtf is going on and if the people who make the last few edition game rules actually read the lore.
@@rexmagi4606 yeah no Heresy era Dreadnaughts is a knife in the back
From experience, doing something as a hobby vs doing the same thing professionally (or competitively) is night and day. GW's attempts to have a 'one size fits all' approach just won't work.
"40k was punk" Absolutely how I feel. It was back when marines were writing "die die die" on their helmets and it was a heavy metal album cover on steroids. Rogue Trader through 5th is what I love. The primaris are Buzz Lightyear looking marvel crap, it's now a space milsim marvel disney disaster with no soul.
Marines stopped being portraited with that Vietnam vibes and became more of genocidal space knights with the Third edition. And as of milsim, there is no milsim, it's more about fantasy ridiculousness nowadays.
40k is like that really great goth punk nerd friend who thrashed and gothed for 40 years like a saint. Now they work at the bank and drive a toyota and have a business cut. Sometimes they still wear a punked out belt or a big boot but always in memorial, and only occasionally. A throwback. Anything more daring might go against dress-code.
Great commentary by the video's author. Didn't know this.
John Blanche, Wayne England, & Adrian Smith (and many, notable others), are the ones who enticed me into 40k via the artwork. Those are artworks I have on my wall in my studio!
Just focusing on the art …
We went from buying a codex BECAUSE of the art. To downloading free PDFs of the rules because the Art has become soulless PDF worthy corporate shit
I think the same happened with DnD. The more people got interested, the more it lost dungeos and dragons and you can see it with art, messages and rules from devs, the whole idea of narrative, how table should work etc. I see a lot on the internet that people still consider 3.5 is the best despite some of the junk.
I still play the 1970s and 80s versions of D&D. It started going downhill with 2nd edition. Again, it was the “clean and corporate” route. They decided to sell it to kids and so the books had to be something your mom would find palatable.
Yep, we went back to 3rd edition and never looked back (or rather forward). Its not just for the rules, but the atmosphere too. The whole package.
Our small group still.plays 3rd as well. The latest Horus Hersey is our other game. Everything 40k 8th and beyond is dead to us.
40k sucks now because the people making it are making it for people who enjoy it the wrong way, for the wrong reasons. It's a storytelling game, that has been transmogrified into a sweaty competitive game, and I have not had much fun in 10th because everyone is playing to win instead of playing to see cool stuff happen. I am tired of meta lists, strategems, and general knobheaddery of the modern playerbase. It's gotten to the point that if your models aren't painted to my standard I won't play you. I am fucking tired of these tournament players doing the bare minimum to make the table look good. It's fucking infuriating, man. This isn't how the game is supposed to be.
I have to agree, when I see photos of the terrain on the tournement tables the modern crowd like to play on it makes me cringe, people pay actual money to attend and the tables are worse than the ones people in their mid teens were creating using terrain they scratch build from household rubbish 20 years ago. Where is the immersion in any of it? Why are the the objectives perspex circles rather than actual things that would believably be an objective?
How hard would it to just put some crates or barrels on a base and paint them and voilà done. You are trying to take some supplies/ deny them to the enemy if you are someone like tyranids who couldn't want to directly use them.
Every GW manager/suit needs to read your comment. absolutely nailed on correct. Theres no magix left in 40k. For me it peaked in 4th/5th
@@ZhukovsBoots But if the margins of the objective isn't perfectly demarcated, how can I know if my squad of massive nearly unkillable dudes has control over it?
@@thequestbro We used to use a tape measure.
I don't think competitive play is a wrong way to play or have fun. For some people that IS fun. The issue is overprioritizing them at the expense of fluffy, narrative players.
40K may sell more and have more players than ever before but it will never match the quality of 2nd and 3rd edition. The combination of miniatures, the lore, art, and rules will never be matched.
2nd... 3rd... both great games for different reasons. If you could blend the 2 to improve the mass combat of 2nd whilst incorperating some of the complexity of 2nd into 3rd ed... That really would be the absolute peak.
Peak 40k was 3.5th edition. Its been a downhill trend ever since. The Dreadknight was the final nail in the coffin. A perfect example of the terrible direction the company was heading in.
Codexes were all over the shop by the end but third in general was great.
It was Just 2nd Edition! Me and My Crew Just Skipped 3rd, and jumped back in at Forth, and we admitted maybe it does play better, for a New Player, but it's just Not What We Got Into... Remember 2nd Ed Vehicle Cardboard Big Cards (I forget their Real Name Now), all the Difference to the Different Vehicles. Or How all Humans moved 4", I think Eldar was 5", and the sort. Or how the Space Marines were Tactical, and allot of your Special Weapons, Heavy Weapons, and Power Weapons were tied up in Tactical Squads, oppose to Eldar were it's Elites were Generally More Mobile, Less Armor But a Few, Less Toughness, But Specialized in things, and more Maneuverable. Armies had Strengths and Weaknesses, but now, it's Not Like That, Every Army has the same stuff, maybe more, maybe less, but if you wanted to be a Space Marine, and have a bunch of Meltas you could only play One Type of Space Marines Chapter that had other Weaknesses, and it just added another layer of Strategy. Plus it was just better when Everyone Had Two Cents to Put in whether the Emperor was a False God, and you could Read this, and that is the Impression they are trying to give, and read something else like a Chapter Codex and you would think, No the Emperor is God. Or how about the War in Heaven, which was nothing more than an Eldar Myth akin to Ancient Greek Myths of Gods, and when the War In Heaven became something of known History as long as you played the Necrons it just really lost something, it was better as a Myth only Retained by the Eldar from Millions of Years Ago... I bought the 1st Necrons, the Original Metal Ones, Sold Them Like 3 Years Ago, because I needed to have another Army my Friends could beat, because I was Unstoppable Eldar! I Sold all my Guardians and Aspect Warriors like 3 years ago to (after being Swatted by Radical 40k Players, it's Not the Same Player Base, Young People Now are Trouble) and I had like 160 Guardians and like 70 Aspect Warriors, Not to Mention all my Heavies, so You Never Knew What I was Feilding as Eldar, I Loved Running Masses of Guardians Up the Board with Warlocks with Conceal, + Invulnerable Save on Guardians although they were like 8pts, than by the Time they are Almost in Range, my Elites to Falcons would descend upon anything Not Clumped Together in One Giant Mass and Wipe them Out, so everyone knew, I control the Board, or Else. I bought some Nids (like 1250 pts) Had Necrons (1000pts) and could play my Brothers Dark Angles (like 1500pts but could stretch to 1750, all 4th Ed Pts, because 2nd Ed Things Costed More) and I'd play those in Small Games, Not Take It Seriously so my Buddies would be Willing to Play Against Me, because they Got to a Point, they just didn't like the assured Victory of my Eldar, which I had over 3000pts and growing for a Time, But When I played the Eldar, I am Not Losing and Get Super Serious, so it was Fun to Borrow some Marines from my Brother, and throw Waves of Gaunts at someone...
I liked 2nd Ed, Terminator had a 2+ Armor Throw on 2 D6s, meaning without any Modifiers to the Gun, it's a 1 in 36 chance of getting threw. But almost all Guns Had a Modifier, most 1 or 2, so 3+ Space Marine Power Armor, was Only 5+ to even a Guardian on one D6, but still 3+ to a Gretchen. It took more Math per Roll, things took longer, everything was more Complicated, but if you could keep up it was Funnier, although allot of people couldn't and later Editions would make the Game Easier to Play for them, but I liked it because it was Complicated...
@@randyross5630 yeah 2nd ed had alot going for it
I Remember playing 7th or 8th Edition and Overwatch was nothing but a Guy with a Pistol Would Fire One-shot when Charged in an Assault, and it was just Dumb, Overwatch is how you covered someone running between the Buildings. Although I didn't like how it was always on a 6+, making Overwatch less powerful than it should of been even back in 2nd Ed. I wonder Did they Bring Back Modifiers for Armor, or bring back Overwatch, IDK I got Swatted by a Loser, and the War Hammer Community turned into Political Radicals and I wasn't about to open myself up to being Offed by the Cops because some Nerd Set Me Up! People that Play War Hammer Now aren't Cool People... No One I would want to be around, because they are Trouble, the Young People are Trouble Makers in a way were never were as Kids...
These reasons are why i have abandoned 40k and moved to one page rules. I remember back in the day when 3 units stats rules and flavor text could fit on a page onstead of these full page, plus datacard, plus cross refence of the army detachment to figure out what a single units rules are.
Opr is a return to the sipler side of wargaming done right, where you can bring what you want, theow dice and have fun again.
Testify!
I also consider 40K gothic-punk, the era it came out is definitely why.
Dawn of War on PC. I fell in love at the same moment. Especially that intro. Two armies charging at each other, space knights vs space orcs (I played Warcraft before that) was a dream come true. Especially the emphasis on Gothic architecture in buildings. When I discovered that there was a lot of older lore behind it and the tabletop game meant that was it, everything I wanted was in one place. Due to the small budget, first there were paper miniatures on pieces of cardboard and rules and codexes found on "certain" sites. When I finally got around to having the funds, bought the rulebook, codexes, miniatures, GW decided that Warhammer 40k would become a vehicle for spreading political messages, moralizing, etc... instead of what it was in the beginning. That's why I'm thinking about selling the miniatures and giving up on the hobby in general unless GW distances itself from what is not its business at all. I didn't want to include this part in the comment, but I am deeply disappointed.
What are the political messages? Frankly, I haven’t noticed anything overt, but also I haven’t been buying their books for a while.
lol political messages? you mean women just say it bud. you dont like women in your warhammer thats the only actual issue anyone can even come up with . lmfao
@@neoraven223 cobblers. There have been female models and characters in Warhammer since before 40k. WFB 2e featured Amazons and female elves in the included scenario back in '85 and this was incredibly popular.. Genevieve and Meh'lindi were two of the most popular lore characters back before black library was a thing. Sororitas have been around since 2e and have been popular for 30 years. Sisters of silence became so. This is despite limited model ranges for both. The most popular novel series have included mixed groups and strong female characters (Gaunt, Cain, Eisenhorn to name the most high profile).
Nobody has an issue with "female characters in the game / lore" - if they did so, they would have had this problem decades ago and never got into Warhammer in the first place.
@@josipzupan770 your confusing warhammer with capeshit and Star Wars dawg
@Ayahuasca98 "We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray through miniatures, art and storytelling so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. And if you feel the same way, wherever and whoever you are, we’re glad you are part of the Warhammer community. If not, you will not be missed.”
Therefore, if you dare question what the female Custodes are, then you are a misogynist, racist, biased, bigoted, right-wing fascist incel. And you are no longer welcome in the community. For the Adeptus Sororitas Rumor engine: "Unambiguous, a little gothic, probably carried by someone with breathtakingly outdated views on inclusivity..." GW is full of progressive DEI political activists and perverts. As for perverts, look at what they did with Age of Sigmar. Example of what a way to humiliate heroism and masculinity compare Captain Garro in the novella "The Flight of Eisenstein" and in the novella "Garro".
I started 40k back when I discovered it when I was 18. This was right when 8th edition was coming into its own, when most of the factions had their codexes.
I fell in love with the universe, the lore, the art, the models... and then 9th edition happened. In my head, I thought that oh, this is cool, I can have four or five years to play the edition and build up my army...
But then I started to hate where 9th was going. And then 10th happened. The game got more watered down, more homogenous. It wasnt the game I had fallen in love with, even just after a few years.
A year ago I bought all the 3rd edition books. Every book that had anything to do with that time period, codexes, supplements, chapter approved... i love those books, I love looking through them. It makes me nostalgic for a time I never got to live through, and probably never will.
I got priced out of the hobby eventually. GWs constant price increases, and the fact that I live an hour away from the nearest hobby store, meant that I only really got to play the game a couple of times a month. Combine this with the fact that the "friends" I had made at the hobby store ended up mostly ostrizizing me, because I wasnt able to keep up with the new releases and new rules, and I ended up leaving the hobby for the most part.
I'd live to go back to the hobby. Back to that feeling I had when I first discovered the universe, back when I gave my nightbringer model wings because it looked awsome... back before tournaments were the only thing people seemed to care about.
🤔I myself got into 40K at the tail-end of 2nd Edition, before we got the truly *_Grim Dark_*_ Art & Paint-styles started in the (lovely) 3rd Edition Rule Book (◼◻Black Templars Cover by J. Blanche) and even back _then_ (in 2E) the Art style was *_Gritty_*_ -&- _*_Dark......_* but now, it def. looks like it's on the path to be almost unrecognizable from it's conceptual *Grim Dark* aesthetic, and is starting to more resemble the Art style of that (ill-fated) book series 'WARHAMMER KIDS' (i.e. completely antithetical to its Setting & Roots. )
[▶4:42❌ vs. 11:00✅] North, just some CC (++Construct-Criticism++) please *Screen Shot* the _Entire _*_Image_* (so Top is not Cut off) so we in turn ca *_Poach_*_ them_ for our heretical Pic Albums *[};-)=•☁*
(* or did you get these from The Warhammer+ Vault - in which case I understand completely if they didn't come _Whole._ (?)
I always wanted 40k to go mainstream to bring more people into the hobby because I hoped it would cause prices to go down. Man, that was dumb on my part.
That’s what drew me to trench crusade. Old school heavy metal art, crazy setting and all the warhammer OG‘s creating it
I’m as OG as you get(almost!), I started out with Warhammer fantasy second edition! Recently someone said to me that fantasy was shut down because it was just another ‘generic’ fantasy setting and they could not believe what I told them about what it used to be like. Basically go back and look at the old John Blanche and Ian millar art, that WAS Warhammer. Punk rock Amazon’s and goblin fanatics, bizarre chaos war bands and dreamlike city scapes straight out of a seventies prog rock album cover! Warhammer used to be a bloody fever dream of weirdness!
Man I was 8 when I got the rulebook with those iconic images. You could flick through this tome for days and think about this vast, dark universe. It was just great
That just sounds like a child's imagination - nothing to do with the state of current books.
@seanclarke8015 oh I have the books here and can compare them. But if you like the current style its good for you.
I've spoken to a lot of people on this subject. People disagree about when exactly "peak" was, based on when they started and what they like about the hobby.
But everyone agrees peak is history and we're riding the coat-tails.
Edit: for me it was back in the 90s with 2nd & 3rd. The models weren't as good (except for Eldar who still have the same models...) but the _feel_ was just so much better.
The peak was 3rd and for a reason I rarely see written, during 3rd GW replaced metal minis with plastics that were significantly cheaper. Tactical squads went from $55 AUD to $35 AUD and the plastics were better. Not just fluff and gaming wise, 3rd felt like GW actually gave a shit about us. It was 100% the golden age of 40k.
@@danieldare9245 I'd agree it "felt like GW gave a shit". It felt, during that period, that it was collaborative. Less "us and them" and more of a big "us".
I think a _lot_ of that, now I look back, was down to Paul Sawyer being in charge of WD and being the "human face" of GW as a result. His enthusiasm and passion was infectious and WD felt more like a buddy showing you cool things than the corporate sanitised promo pamphlet it's become.
40k hasnt been the same since about 5th edition. 3rd and 4th were the best IMO but after 5 the codex creep kicked into overdrive, the fomo and competetive side became everything and narrative was dusted. Im a full convert to Grimdark Future at this point, and not just for the cost.
This is a universe i can work wonders in.
7th edition did a good job of providing the most variety for armies. Best edition for hobbyists. Just dipping my toes into GDF as well.
Out of all 40k editions, this is the only one that I haven’t even bothered to buy the Rulebook, or any of the Codices for the armies that I collect.
What does punk even mean? Because from where I'm standing it just seems that the setting has matured a little with age. I like some changes and dislike others.
Peak competition was 5th edition. GW does NOT listen to outside testers, and they have not in 15 plus years. This is why they release a codex and it gets BANNED in the SAME month until it is corrected. The points are guesswork, and gameplay is cumbersome. Fun? Goofy? Try First Edition. Balanced? Try 5th. Want to play a MESS? Play 10th. There is POOR balance. Our group has been playing for 20-35 years, and we ALL play One Page Rules now.
The most fun I ever had was playing the old third edition Black Templars codex. When it got killed and the Templars got folded into the Space Marines codex the fun of playing them went away. I tried playing tenth edition for a while but I found myself tweaking and gotcha chasing. The last game of 40K I ever played was one where I slaughtered my opponent with a gotcha thing. I pounded his army to dust, and felt absolutely awful about it. Switched to OPR and never looked back. I played a three game OPR campaign a couple Saturdays ago and lost. It came down to the last dice role and I had huge fun all the way through. Best day of gaming I think I've ever had.
OPR is definitely the way to go for old gamers with lives.
GW constantly nerfing stuff and not fixing rules for models because they don't care if they sell is why I play OPR now. Got me back into the hobby full force.
Describing it as "milsim" is genuinely unhinged.
I heard it said once about 40K, just on the title icon: The old one looked hand-crafted, one-off and made specifically. The new one looks like it was stamped out of a machine press on a production line.
Talk to a Tournament player...fun is nowhere in the equation...and GW is on board with that...to GW the Tournament player is the only person that matters and they have balanced the fun right out of the game..lately just taking my models out of the case is a boring chore...because I know that weather I'm at a Tournament or not I'm going to end up with some tard wearing a Sports Jersey with his sponsors on it...but this is how GW wants it...these days if you twist my arm to play its with 8th edition or with OPR....and GW keeps riding their DR Strangelove nuke all the way to ground zero....once the Space Marine 2 Tourist get bored the company is going to be in trouble...and it is deserved.
This is a snapshot and highly local, but my boys are both in the hobby and at high school. There's a "Warhammer club" at that school. When SM2 came out, they were turning people away. Now they're down to one or two more than they had pre-SM2. I've not observed this directly, but my eldest says that people come, realise it's "hard work" to assemble and paint the models and learn the rules, and lose interest.
Again, this is local to where I am (Yorkshire), in one high school, and I can't say whether the same thing is replicated elsewhere in the hobby - but if it _is_ then maybe the "SM2 tourists" surge of interest is already close to over.
@@Daemonik I think we’re getting close to the end of this phase, and I’m not sure if you’ve noticed, but before SM 2 launched, the stores in my area were practically empty. In Texas, we have both a Warhammer Citadel and a dedicated Warhammer store, and on weekends, they were dead. It seems like we’re heading right back to that.
I’ve said this before, but I think they need to split the 40k rules into two versions. One should be a casual version for players like us, and the other a more competitive, Chapterhouse-approved version for the hardcore players. The casual version would focus on fun, letting people play with the models they enjoy, with rules centered around rolling dice and moving models. Meanwhile, the tournament version could still be released every few years, but the casual version should remain stable to attract new players. This way, it can act as a gateway for newcomers who might eventually want to dive deeper into the competitive rules....I know it will never happen but one can dream
@@Jeff-ne1lh I frequent FLGS rather than GW, last went in a GW at the start of the year, and left within a couple of minutes due to being dry-humped to buy AoS boxes when I went in to buy a paint - but the store was 2 staff and one customer aside from me at the time, so hardly bustling.
I agree about the rules split - how that would work in practice, I don't know.
Splitting the rules could cause a whole host of problems - where things work different ways. I can see tournament players trying to enforce "the real rules" in casual settings and casual players just giving up and going along despite not wanting to - just because of the general character differences between the two types of player. A tournament player tends to be more forceful, where a casual player just wants a quiet life and a fun time, and will have a bad time then not come back. I can imagine also a lot of clubs especially where members only want "matched play, tournament rules" to ensure "fairness" rather than just doing a cool scenario. I miss scenarios. Epic last stands, ambushes, lopsided battles, special objectives, escort quests, assassinations etc. My best game ever was a last stand where my eldar got overrun by endless waves of bugs back in 3rd. It was just _cool_ and _fun_ and totally *not* "fair" or "balanced".
Maybe just have a single flexible ruleset (the "casual") that gets updates once a year and codexes otherwise apply as printed, then also have an additional "matched play" add-on (digital download, free) which updates 4-6 times a year with points values and matched play rules / clarifications, codex updates etc that simply don't occur in 99.9% of more casual games. Then they can have specific individual tournament packs the same way they currently do as an add-on to the add-on.
I dunno. I'm rambling. I'd just like to _want to play 40k_ again, like I used to. I used to look forward to the chance to play it. Currently, I just don't. I don't want to go through a bunch of PDFs every time I play to figure out what rules have changed, and rewrite a list because points have changed again. I don't want to _then_ try to figure out what the opponent has and what stack of gotchas they're going to spring on me. I don't care if it's not been "balanced" twice in the last month. I just wanna roll dice and play space fantasy soldiers. So now I just generally "play 40k" with OPR rules instead.
@@Jeff-ne1lhthat split already happened a decade ago. One Page Rules went the direction for grownup casual players, and GW went the other route.
@@Jeff-ne1lhpeople always say this but the narrative option is always the LEAST popular play style/ruleset. GW has tried it multiple times ending with it going no where. Players prefer a more concise, balanced (attempted at least) ruleset over a hodgepodge of fluff and narrative rules.
I been playing my 5th - 7th edition xenos books in 30K and I've been having a ball. Some of the 30K guys don't like it and, say I'm ruining their hobby. I tell them I've been playing for almost 30 years and, I never forced someone into a game, so your hobby is safe.
I would have no problem playing against you doing a great crusade narrative battle for fun. There were some good third party rules for some xenos in first edition hh. Just out of curiosity, how do you handle reactions?
Right now I've been playing lost Tyranids. No hive fleet, just pod clusters that landed on random plants after drifting for millions of years. I use core warlord traits. No army reaction. The shooting reactions are pretty much useless. The movement reactions are awesome. Assault reactions are ok. They are outclassed in almost everything but psychic powers. They lose most of the time but everyone playing has a lot of fun playing against something new.
This made me feel bittersweet. I’m from the US, so warhammer wasn’t a staple growing up. Sure, i still heard of it, but not like for you guys in the UK.
Now I’ve got the models and the lore, but it’s not the same. The models are better, but at what cost?
A lot of video games are similiar to this phenomenon you’ve explained. Where the “narrative” shifts from where it began. In the very beginning of Overwatch, the characters were ALL incredibly overpowered. They felt unique until it slowly became an Esport and every character became watered down.
If I could hop into the past for a day, it’d be really cool to spend it in a Games Workshop back in the day.
I am a fanfic writer of Warhammer...
I write for the Imperial Guard.
I love it, but now i feel disillusioned.
How am i supposed to follow the lore which is needed for me to follow the guidelines, when they change it constantly with retcons and reintroducing back things that doesn't makes sense.
I afraid that as years go by, they get more and more focused on competitive competition than actual lores...
The combat patrols is a pain. When you can buy massive armies in the past.
I’m not even a particularly old hand at 40K. I got into it in mid/late 7th in high school, but I’ve had friends get into 40K in the last couple years and feels like I’m having to explain a long lost age to them half the time as I explain stuff that just doesn’t exist anymore.
Oh that cool character/vehicle/unit you watched a lore video on? Yeah that’s in legends now so it isn’t going to get updated and the rules might disappear next edition completely.
Hey this specific interaction used to have some really interesting rules that just don’t exist anymore.
Those guys used to have some really interesting rules, now they are just kind of good at hitting stuff.
All those models on myself I’ve never played? Well one of those was renegades and heretics, but that’s a dead faction now unless I want to play spiky guard and those ork units are in legends with some pretty bad rules even for friendly games so I don’t really put them in most list.
I’ve not even been playing for a full decade yet, but the game is borderline unrecognizable to what got me into it.
Watch Heavy Metal 1981.
To me that has always been the same or similar aesthetic to classic 40K.
The raw nature of the animation, the grotesqueness of the art style. The visual brutality that made you uncomfortable but so intrigued at the same time.
That was peak identity for the 40K setting. The is modern crap is just Gothic Starwars.
Current 40k is so watered down…there’s zero tactical play anymore when movement mattered. The game is effectively MTG with models with gotcha moments. It’s terrible. Happy to play older editions or OPR.
Do you even play the game? What gotcha moments?
I very much agree that it was the 'best' Warhammer 40K, but for me I have to acknowledge the nostalgia factor. It was the edition I came in on (3rd edition) and I quit at 7th edition. Although I haven't actually played Horus Heresy, it feels like it was written for fans of 3rd-5th edition, and they clearly threw the concept of balance out the airlock.
Making the most money yet not peak. I assumed tournament focus was on the logic, that you could put the prices up and they will buy heavy and frequently no matter how bad your game is, no matter how many changes you make, no matter anything as they just want to win. Say there is a better game or the genral market is in a slump or the player base gets older and different in purchasing habbits change, the tournament player just react purchases to you and GW can play them like a fiddle.
I had to take a step back after trying to get back into 40K..Reading the rules was like reading stereo instructions...it was just so dull. When a few friends tried walking me through the rules during a game, I just got tired of listening to the constant drone of rules and the "Gotcha" moments that to me, were just frustrating. I'm much happier just building and painting..
I'm going to steal your "stereo instructions" metaphor. You've nailed what I've been trying to verbalise for a while!
@Daemonik cool. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way lol
I think for me the last time 40k was Peak was around the Badab War/Siege of Vraks. Alan Bligh was awesome (RIP).
Id be interested on your take on Trench Crusade. They even have John Blanche involved in making art for them now, and just raised 3.3 million on kickstarter! Check out the completely free campaign rules too, its made by the same guy who did Mordheim. Still early but it seems a lot more soulful and creativity focused than GWs current direction.
What I loved about the old Warhammer 40k art, when I started playing in 2nd edition was the way it showed the armies I collected how they would actually look in the grim reality of the Warhammer 40k universe. It felt like the models were just an approximation of how they actually looked like and that those armies were a bit diconnected from the actual lore. Sure, the codex covers, especially the Ultramarines one looked goofy and the modern ones actually look alot better, but the black/white art was just so much better. You had bright red armour, lush green bases and clean paintjobs on the minis, although you knew that the world those armies existed in was nothing like that. Now the art more closely matches what the models look like. Its like the models are actually looking like they would in the real world of Warhammer 40k, which is odd to say the least. There are not enough details, not enough horror and everything is just too clean. They try to show horror, gore and aweful acts of violence, but the scenes end up looking like someone was building a diorama with the miniatures. It does not feel alive, it feels soulless. There are some nice pieces of art from time to time, but the gritty awefulness is gone.
Edit: 19:35 thats just because you are old, like me. I am almost 40 years old and have little time left in the afternoon to play video games, so I want to have the best possible time. When I go online for a multiplayer session at 7pm, I am playing against people that are home from school or universety for 4h already and are totally in the zone. if you know what I mean. They play the game far more often, are much quicker, know the maps alot better and have unlocked more equipment.
To me, GW is a miniature only company. Their rulesets are so bloated and boring, id much rather build and paint GW models for OPR games.
And if you write fanfic about Warhammer like me and other making shows like TTS and animators that loved the franchise... That is even difficult for us to even show the world how grimdark our setting can be... When GW began the ban game.
Game balance doesn't exist in reality. There is no such thing. Even chess, checkers and go. I also get where you and your mate are coming from. I've been playing since 1986 or so. Now it's boring to play. It's not a game for everybody. If you try to make it that way and "fair" you're going to fail.
Ah,yes, the 3rd ed.Eldar Codex, i still own it to this day, and the cover still captivates me,after all these years. Reason i started an Eldar army back then was due to the aamazing artwork and fascination towards these space elves creatures and their continent size ships.
Edit: as an artist myself,i know for a fact,as i had an art teacher back then who was behind the G.W. Codex covers, Gw no longer employs many of the old artist guard in house. They did it to save themselves more money. It´s the same for the sculptors. Back then,in the good olden times, sculptors in gw made their minis by hand, and molded them for casting into metal. Later with technology advancing plastic became a thing, and mid 2012,onwards, all sculptors in G.W. had to get on with the times and learn to use their Z-brush like sculpting programs or they were shown the door out. That´s why,and i speak for me, G.W. minis no longer retain the old Grimdark-punk feel as they did,new people came,people who didn´t get the overall Warhammer aesthetic right,nor that the company itself was made by passionate nerds for nerds.
As of now, Warhammer feels more like Playmobil for manbabies, rather than Warhammer.
3.5 edition was peak 40k. I played some 9th edition and couldn't keep up with the seasonal rules changes as a causal player. I decided later to not play 10th and go back to when the game was fun, fluffy, and to the point. Been happy ever since.
I'm someone new coming into the hobby and I really don't know what to think about this (so here's a bit of a ramble of my own, hope you don't mind). I'm a video gamer, I love tactics and I play games because I want to play games, not to be 5up3r L33tz0r best gamer ever. I was around on the original CoD4 MP when that first came out and I was part of the exploration of the new frontier of the internet. I enjoy playing games because I like the challenge, I like exploring stories and I like solving problems with the tools I have (yes, I'm looking at starting with Tau) because for me, that's fun.
I mentioned in a previous video that I'm a sim racer, and whilst I really enjoy racing for the competition and mastering of a skill, I hate the 'meta-chasing', but unfortunately that's just something that comes with a competitive aspect of something. Esports overall has good aspects, but I can definitely see that there are negative aspects which it's brought into everything (min-maxing, meta chasing, etc.). That means that I'll never be in the top 10% of racers but whatever, I'm happy racing with people around my skill level and if I win, it's because I've had a good day. Great.
However, there are times where things absolutely DO need to be balanced. Developers releasing patches for stuff like Baldur's Gate for example won't always be to prevent people from having fun, it's to fix unintended behaviours. I'm not saying that's all the time, but these patches aren't the fun police coming to shit on your enjoyment of stuff! For example, if I'm playing Cyberpunk in a party of 5 and someone figures out a way to work the game so that in any encounter all they have to do is fire their weapon once and suddenly everyone who we don't like is dead, it stops being fun for everyone else. In the Software Development Lifecycle (SDLC), this results in a patch being released to balance it back and make it more fun for everyone else involved.
I feel like you flip-flopped a bit on this topic in this vid by saying if you're getting bodied and are sat there for an hour waiting for a turn to end it's shit and not fun, but you're also saying that you want people to be able to find these game breaking 'exploits' which wouldn't ever really be patched out because of the nature of the world at the time.
I'm lucky that one of the players I'm playing Cyberpunk Red with is a Warhammer fan and player and has run through a combat patrol game with me and I really enjoyed it, so he's printed off a Tau Combat Patrol proxy for me to put together so I can see if it's something I want to invest some money in. I really enjoyed that game and I love the lore that's coming out, I love the thinking I have to do, I love the absurdity of it all and I can see the stories that I will make by playing around in this universe. For me, there's loads of potential there for me to - say it with me - HAVE FUN.
On the other hand, whilst I do agree with you sometimes that certain things need to be gatekept at times, I feel like if I were to come to your hobby store and say "I've just started, I'm looking for a few old heads to play a game or two with me, help me learn a bit more and have a bit of fun", I'll get turned down because I've "just started the hobby and 10th edition isn't nearly as good as it used to be because back in my day...", and the kinds of people I DO want to play with (the grey beards you allude to), are just going to dismiss me out of hand because they're trying to gatekeep their 'history' so to speak.
I never knew what 3rd edition was like and I'm likely never going to. I'm starting off with Tau Combat Patrol where I've 'acquired' some models, I'm using the 40k app on my phone to get the rules and datasheets and get started, and then I'll be getting the 10th edition rulebook and Tau codex and then I'll be wanting to play some games, make a few stories and have fun. Key word there being 'wanting'.
I feel like what I'll end up doing is being stuck between the new "10th edition sweaty try-hard esports kids who want to min-max everything" (whom I don't want to play too much with to begin with) and the old grey-beard types who will look at me as if I am one of those new bloods and just want to protect their little bubble, which will leave me completely isolated, disenfranchised and disengaged with the hobby and I'll just stop playing.
There's no way I can win here the way I see it (I'm aware of the irony here...) - In all likelihood, I'll need to move away from my friend for work so my channel into the hobby proper is something I'll lose and if it's something I want to carry on with, I'll be forced to find new people to play with which is fine, but with the way you've been talking about things, I don't see any positive outcomes here.
I was in tenth grade when Rogue Trader came out and I been playing the whole time.
I agree with everything and have the same issues.
My whole group moved to One Page Rules during 9th edition and the only reason I am doing tenth is because I got my 14 year old kid into it and want him to experience the game as the current edition for him.
I wouldn’t mind it so much if they just sat on the edition for longer like 5 years. This 3 year cycle totally sucks and the rules changing/catering to tournaments is bad, in my perspective.
The cycling of rules is what pushes people away, and once they younger players have jobs/families/kids etc where they aren’t playing 3 games a week, they will see that it sucks when you play once a month - so play 5 games then they change the rules.
Also started playing in 10th grade, during RT, and also discovered and moved to OPR in 9th.
Have to say, I'm with you in your opinions on games. I'm very much a "single player supremacy" type person. Maybe because I'm a bit of a misanthrope and theres nothing I want LESS in my "relaxation time" than OTHER PEOPLE, especially complete strangers.
I enjoy Dark Souls, Elden Ring and especially Bloodborne (favourite game of all time, got me through a rough part of my life), but of the online/multiplayer aspect was completely removed, I would not care at all.
I am also into various warhammers for about 25 years, started with fantasy, then 40k, then HH. And it definitaly shifts. And now, as an adult, I have my responsibilities and I am just tired to keep up with constant errata, releases and everything. I can´t even count (and I don´t want to) how many times I´ve bought a book for 40k, managed to get like a game or two if lucky and then the book was rotated out. Traitor Legions suplement comes to mind as well as the Khorne Daemonkin and the first World Eaters codex.
I would argue that the same fact goes for Warcraft... just look at art for the W1-W3 or even early WoW. And look at the recent one. It lost it´s balls, same as 40k, pretty much to cater broader audience, which is good bussiness wise ofc, but it inevitably gets watered down.
Peak 40k is now Necromunda. The punk, the baroque exaggeration, the over-the-top Blanchitsu, the metal. It's so good.
That's really the beauty of the setting: that all those different vibes can coexist in their own corners at the same time.
I played a game of 3rd edition fantasy a few years ago. On turn one, I cast a spell that killed half of all living creatures on the table, including my own troops.
Unbalanced beyond belief but fun as hell. Cast another spell which would move randomly every turn destroying everything it touched, soldiers, trees, houses. I couldn't find the vortex card so we used a chokolate cookie. There was a lot of maneuvering during that game, I can promise.
Point is, my most fun games were never balanced, but made fun through narrative events and sheer sportsmanship. And Monty Python quotes do help. It is known.
I've played since 1st edition. I had 12 armies of 2000+ at the start of 7th edition & my bestie had 8 or 9, now i've got 6 left, my mate has 2 & eBay got the rest. Ultimately we'll end up with some nostalgia pieces for our shelves & get rid of the rest, unthinkable to me only 6-7 years ago but it just feels like something is missing from 40k now & I don't think it's coming back (whatever it is).
GW relied on the old "grey-beards" to do their recruiting for them for years so they could paywall their marketing, i'll be curious to see what happens now we're all leaving in droves.
The Bolt Thrower album was new. It was AWFUL, and we LOVED it. There was no glimmer of hope for any faction in 40K, even and including Chaos. We argued over the arcane vehicle destruction rules, wishing they could just use toughness and wounds, and when we got just that, we complained about that. Space Wolves weren't entirely a meme yet, Dark Angels had an edge without being edgelords, and Ol' One Eye was a problem. The golden age.
Hey I was to grow a steady gaming group of about 12 guys that all play regularly literally everyone in my work break room I work in a metal factory hard labor these are all grizzled tough guys and we all now play 40k at least 1 or two times a month and have tournament with pooled prizes non of these guys we're that I to sci Fi or gaming or even modelling. It's up to people to get new players. Maybe off topic but there a positive success story.
My man, cheers for not being a pissy bitch like 90% of complainers
Loved 40k as a kid and decided to pick it up again in my 30s. And it just dosnt have the charm.anymore... basicly it has no grit anymore.
Iv moved to trench crusade.
Minus all the discord drama (that I intentionally ignored) one look at the artwork and minis will spark some grim dark creativity again
🤔I myself got into 40K at the tail-end of 2nd Edition, before we got the truly *_Grim Dark_*_ Art & Paint-styles started in the (lovely) 3rd Edition Rule Book (◼◻Black Templars Cover by J. Blanche) and even back _then_ (in 2E) the Art style was *_Gritty_*_ -&- _*_Dark......_* but now, it def. looks like it's on the path to be almost unrecognizable from it's conceptual *Grim Dark* aesthetic, and is starting to more resemble the Art style of that (ill-fated) book series 'WARHAMMER KIDS' (i.e. completely antithetical to its Setting & Roots. )
[▶4:42❌ vs. 11:00✅] North, just some CC (++Construct-Criticism++) please *Screen Shot* the _Entire _*_Image_* (so Top is not Cut off) so we in turn ca *_Poach_*_ them_ for our heretical Pic Albums *[};-)=•☁*
(* or did you get these from The Warhammer+ Vault - in which case I understand completely if they didn't come _Whole._ (?)
(** Great Vid BTW;-)
I started in 98/99 and it was the aesthetic and lore that pulled me in. I'm a massive Necron collector, and I lament the changing of their lore and the dark cosmic horror of the C'tan.
I agree with most of your points, especially new 40k lacking a soul compared to old 40k.
However I would disagree with your comments that the norm is now to be a bit of an ass, list tailor, bend the rules etc. The overall mindset is definitely more competitive focused but that doesnt mean it's more negative, I tend to have great experiences with the people I come across, even if the game isn’t as good anymore.
In fact list tailoring never happens because people often want to test out lists for tournaments.
While I gotten into it relatively recently, I started lore first and qas drawn by the extreme grimdark of the setting, it reminded me of old anime/comics/ ova series with it's attitude, at it's darkest stretching into genocyber or devilman territories.
Because of this I researched abit and fell in love with specifically john blanches art, that being like definitive warhammer and am sad when I see it stretch into renaissance art when it's closer to even something like a geiger, it's supposed to be esoteric and vague/ larger than life, literal interpretation can ruin that.
Whenever I see warhammer media, what I really get melancholic about is the lack of variety, where while fairly pleasing, the often 3d, realistic animations don't fit for me. I wish they would get people like gendy tartakofski or some European animation teams to create their own warhammer projects.
I love 40k lore, even if Modern day Games Workshop is going full WOTC, and going Creatively bankrupt, all that amazing lore and the great books and stores still and always will exist. Just like Star Wars's Extended universe, Disney may have chosen to say the extended universe it's no longer cannon, I do not choose to agree with them, Timmothy Zhan's books with Mara Jade Skywalker is still cannon for me. 40k lore will always be fantastic, grimdark, gripping stories No matter what Games Workshop does. Grimdark Feudal Punk yep! That's perfectly said North! This is why 40k lore is my avenue into the hobby because it's the one thing GW can't do anything to. My head cannon will always be mine.
I started to play in 3rd edition when I was about 13, it was rough, challenging, transgressive and darkly fascinating. Many people looked at it and were actively repulsed and there was something very compelling in this morbid unapologetic setting. It got me thinking about art and story telling in different ways. It's wasn't everyone's cup of tea, 40k today is super polished, slick and cool and razor focused on the share price. I guess today's analogy is skibidi toilet and I wonder how long it'll take for it to get appropriated and watered down to be palatable to the "total addressable market".
One thing that bears mentioning is the logo change. From the arcane block of stone to the sleek, over-designed, bland thing we have now. Looking back at it I think that was when GW decided to abandon what made 40k unique for the sake of mainstream audience.
I agree so much with the aesthetic thing - I absolutely love those old codices with the moody, off-model grayscale art. Although tbf the oldhammer crowd says the same stuff about the switch to middlehammer grimdark. I think they have a greater claim over the punk aesthetic with the 2000AD influences etc. 3e is more goth imo, especially with all the renaissance and baroque art inspiration - not to mention the straight up cybergoth stuff you get with the Dark Eldar.
I also remember the 3e codexes would feature conversions and hobby inspiration, which really created this sense that the game was about self-expression and creativity as much as anything else. Now you kinda feel like they're just product brochures.
Everytime I look at those Adrian Smith chaos space marine pen and ink drawings, I can’t help but say, “Hell yeah, this is my 40k”
There is no milsim nowadays, it more about ridiculous fantasy. And far fewer grimdark.
It happens to many hobbies. 40k, Dungeons & Dragons, Vampire: The Masquerade... Damn, I still love my 6th edition Army Book for Dark Elves. 4th edition was also cool, way more punk and somewhat retro, but 6th edition was the shit. Now grab a Vampire: The Masquerade book from 2nd or Revised edition and compare in to current 5th edition, the style is so different like it's a totally different game.
I'm afraid I know why it happened. Not enough of gatekeeping.
The videogame analogy is spot on. Look at Modern Warfare 2, the 2009 original. It was a mess when it came to balance, loads of exploits, insane killstreaks, quickscopers.... and everyone absolutely loved it. Look at the same franchise now. Weapons all balanced and samey, crappy killstreaks and coddled by SBMM to keep everyone at the same level with no way to really improve or level to aspire to. It's boring and frustrating.
Every damn word of this vid is spot on. I still play but i only go up to 9th and outright refuse to go any further. The sad part is I got my friends into the hobby and i have a buddy who just cant understand why I dont want to go further and this rant is every word how ive been feeling about 40k. Dont get me worry I still love and play it from time to time but only in my friend group or solo (playing both sides at a home table). As for the warhammer in video games. Im 50/50 right now cause theres some amazing ones out there like Space Marine series or Boltgun. Theyre there but you are right about its bring in the wrong type of people into the hobby and its just watered it down to much.
VAR sucked the soul out of football for me, it’s no longer beautiful, it’s clinical. It’s a perfect analogy for modern 40k, it’s like having VAR for every step.
I feel like Warhammer used to be bleak. It feels a bit too heroic now. Might just be because my pals all play space marines/sisters/custodes /inquisition.
Just try to imagine modern GW giving Boltthrower, a death metal band, a solid thumbs up and permission to use game art for their album covers. I've tried, but for the life of me, I can't. And the moment I stopped being able to, I knew things were done for me in terms of investment.
The ONLY fun game I had during 10th, believe it or not, was during the reign of early Eldar. I’d entered a tournament, and brought my nids. I only had the stuff I thought was cool, nothing else, so it was incredibly unoptimised for any army honestly. First opponent was a bloke who brought the most online meta BS eldar list you could imagine, almost purely fire prisms and the like. I absolutely squashed him with minimal losses lmao. I was even running a sporocyst! That thing is AWFUL! Everyone is so focused on meta and stuff that they think they can just beat everything, and as soon as they find some who plays to have fun and imagine the game as an actual battle and story, not a competitive match, they lose. 40k is genuinely dying if everyone thinks they can play this way, fun needs to be prioritised again imo
The best example of this "gathca 40k balance" is current 2024 World Eaters.
You play invocation and Angron, and if you get turn 1, the game is as good as yours.
You don't take either, and you're tying your sword arm to your legs.
Bolt Action is affordable and doesn’t have a massive advantage for the first-turn player. Trench Crusade is grimdark, cheap as dirt, and has a slick ruleset that doesn’t get in the way of play. Mordheim still has a massive following and endless campaign fun. Skirmish Ragers is a fun and affordable zombie skirmish game with extremely characterful models. Flames of War is great for company level combined arms fun. I’ve played and enjoy all of these.
I left 40K in 10th after playing it since Rogue Trader because it just wasn’t fun. It was clear there had been almost no playtesting and the rules were somehow bizarrely complex while the gameplay remained shallow and stale. I’m opting out of the endless loop of pointless rules changes brought in to justify forcing people to buy a new ruleset every three years, garbage codexes, a constant spurting fountain of Marines releases and the squatting of units that they don’t know how to balance.
GW is the epitome of arrogantly believing you’re too big to fail.
This is why I've been on a push to buy the codices and books I'm missing from that era.
Cut-throat competitiveness IS fun to some people. Fluffy, narrative play is fun to others. Neither are right or wrong ways to play. You simply need to ensure you and your opponent are on the same page.
Started at the beginning of 3rd and happy to have witnessed my personal glory days of 40k. Now it is just trying to become another science fiction property for casual consumption.
Peak 40k is 40k, there is nothing else, anything else isn’t 40k. Just like how any actual fan of Star Wars differentiates between Disney Star Wars and Star Wars. When something is altered and more or less unrecognisable can it be considered that which it originally was. World building is like creating a character, once you’ve given it a name, sex, race and backstory then establish it, if you then change any of those things after it is set in stone it ceases to be what it originally was. Peak 40k has stayed reasonably consistent now however aside from a handful of things modern 40k doesn’t feel like 40k. At least with old world they didn’t completely subvert and undermine the setting to introduce age of sigmar they allowed it to end completely separating the two settings. Modern 40k is age of sigmar without the separation.
I'm only 5 min in. Great vid. That tiny little underwhelming Dark Eldar codex gives me chills. Seeing those strange plastic kabalites with their huge heads. Fascinating that's a butter-zone for some. Wasn't that the era when GW very nearly folded?
Thank for the thoughts.
Nowadays, i can't even tell if Warhammer even have the spirit of it...
Balance had killed the random fun for orks. Ork players were arguably the lifeblood for keeping heads cooled in enjoying all aspects of the hobby from kit bashing to painting.
Now ork players are not the same from the crusty neu 40k.
I stayed in the lore but out of tabletop for years. I was worried about the game once the art style drastically changed with Gulliman's return. Nu Marines and yellow Custodes set off alarm bells. Much like MTG, if you don't play the meta instead of making a fun list, forget it.
It reminds me almost of Tarkov's trajectory. Became sweaty, too corporate, and a cash grab. I would not be surprised if 40k becomes Veilguard in space storywise and or Marvel in space in the future.
100% with the list sharing thing, I can't stand showing up for a game and my opponent looks over what I have then finishes thier list, that's meta play in my book.
I started playing at the talle end of 7th. I liked eighth. I definitely agree its slipping. I refuse to play with people who arent willing too play narrative now. The world of 40k is what makes the table top so special
I think North, that when you said 40K is inspirationally bankrupt, you are nearly right. But I'd correct that and say its creatively bankrupt. They have this amazing setting, with characters unlike anywhere else and they haven't a clue what to so with any of it or them. They are cashing in on something and characters that were made 10, 15 or even 25 years ago and what they've made after that is, with a few exceptions, at best "ok".
I've played since Rogue Trader, and I agree with you and your mate. The video game industry has hurt the hobby, and we are missing community and respect for creativity. 3rd edition was the game Edited to add I love the term feudal punk lol
The issue aswell with game that are that old is that ppl in general just have a better understanding of rules making things more optimised.
V11 need to throw a roling bowl into all of that. Remaking/Rethinking Everything. Remaking the whole scale
How I much hate this: Only a person that is so bad that he can’t win a fair game, wants imbalance.
What are you? 45+yo dinosaurs that can’t handle losing? Can you only have fun winning an unfair game, where strategy and skill doesn’t matter?
Pathetic!
(Everything else in this video I agree with)
I'm in 40K since the 3rd edition. It really change alot in rules and style and the way it's beeing played. You are right with many things you said. I'm still in it but more with the story and painting. :) But I still play here and there. Perhaps one should play with old rules. It's a possibility.
It’s an unfortunate inevitability when something has existed that long with continuous content. We get older and new people come in. Still, the older editions are still out there. Just ignore the new lore.
Never played 40k, I am a Fantasy man through and through since the 80's. Every time I try and articulate these thoughts I just get accused of being an old neck beard, that the old models are rubbish and that I have no place in the modern gaming world.
40k died in 9th edition. It's gutting but nobody cares. We're just the grumpy old men to them.
Trench crusade has saved the hobby for me. I'm so excited to start my warbands. Already making terrain ready for the rulebook next year.
Necromunda is modern 40k, and even that suffers from trying to explain everything rather than planting more seeds.
To hell with GW, play one page rules, and save yourself the time money and energy! There’s plenty of us out there.
I even felt this coming in late 9th to 10th. With the whole Cavill debacle and stuff, xyz. How it feels more bland and when I look at the old lore and artwork which is what really got me into it. Now, it just feels like it's not grimdark or I guess punk... news to me swell lol. And to be fair, 9th really isn't a good example of it looking at the other editions. Just started playing and collecting during lockdowns. I have 2 smaller 1k ish armies of Drukarki and Custodes but have stopped altogether collecting. Not only that, but the price for their actual models is bs and not reflective of their simpler more accessible rules. Trench Crusade is here...
As for as video games go they have always just been a license. It's in the small print that the company can take the game or software away from you.
Balancing is a term they use. It has nothing to do with balance.
Balancing a game to be absolutely fair is not possible.
Even in Chess...white goes first .
Balancing as a word is used to change the parameters of the game faster then the people can adapt to it.
Players establish a "meta". Army xy is considered the strongest .
Developer nerfs units in army xy. Now army z is considered the best.
They sell models that way.
Do you guys really think Dark Angels are ,as an example , considered one of the best armies now by chance?
It just so happens that they are getting a x mas box filled with their strongest units.
This isn't a coincidence.
There are no coincidences .
Gw had adopted the practices of Magic the Gathering.
And no, it wasn't different in 3rd ed.No.
The only difference was that there was no way to digitally distribute rules on such a scale.
But "Balancing" was already a term.
Its all downhill hill after Rick left and Alan Merret retiring was the final nail.in the coffin
Bolt Action is becoming 40k. I am fucking done with the hobby of they ruin it.
@@LD-wm7jm how so? I was just looking at starting up BA with the new edition. Played a few sampler games in 2nd edition and liked it, just bought the 3rd ed rulebook and was gonna sit down and go through it, and pick an army literally next week when I have some time!
@Daemonik they are partially releasing content like the army books and have said every theatre book up to v3 is not canon. They're going to implement tiny changes and sell you a slightly different book, and they have made multiple units like snipers simply useless.
@Daemonik Please wait until the army books are all released, you may end up buying an army that gets shafted.
@@LD-wm7jm So they're going with the same sort of "subscription model" as the 40k codices and supplements? 🤦🏻♂️
Appreciate the warning. I'll proceed with caution rather than jumping in the way I was kinda planning on.
_sigh_
@@Daemonik stick to the big factions or Italians. Avoid small nations, British and Japanese.