THE LAWSUIT IS 'OFFICIAL'! Opinions and Recap of Felipe Massa's Lawsuit Against F1
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- Опубликовано: 12 мар 2024
- It's been a few months, but it looks like Massa has gone ahead with the lawsuit to get compensation for the lost revenue from the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix. I covered it once it initially came about last year, and I'm looking into it again as a recap and adding in all the extra bits and bobs that have come out with this latest development. So you all get to know what's going on, and avoid all the rubbish coming from clickbait channels.
So... What's going on now? Let's have a look.
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I liked the Law & Order thing I made so much I used it again.
(Executive Producer Dick Wolf)
The stats in this video are so good that F1, Bernie and FOM lawyers should use it as evidence for their defence. I'd rule against Massa (even though I like the guy, but I'd have to be impartial) on the strength of it alone if I was a juror.
"Dum Dum!!!"
I am about to be evicted after your Law & Order made me laugh hysterically in a quiet apartment complex in Zurich.
This is your fault.
I demand you offer me shelter in your garage if my work lease is rescinded.
The FIA will end up settling out of court to get rid of Massa.
In the immortal words of Teddy KGB - PEI DEIT MEIN HEIS MAHNEY!
Law & Order - Racing Victim Unit.
Now I'm thinking of petrol head personalities, to fill the actor's roles
It's a giant cluster with no winners now, except the lawyers...
Lawyers always win ❤
@@user-rs2qw7co2hRudi Giuliani wants you to hold his beer,
Massa can get his loss overturned and that’s what he wants.
Ferrari had an automatic system for the pit release, but because of the compact size of the pit lane, they were using the manual version of the system.
The F1 2008 Season review shows this off.
But thats no excuse for driving off with the fuel hose still attached 😂😂😂
@@F1Guy-GuyThe micro-mirrors would make it difficult to begin with. Also, drivers are pretty much instructed to follow the signals given by the mechanics. I know Ferrari and a few other teams use to have big mirrors on their lollipops, but they were phased out when the lights came. So there was no chance there.
In terms of the footage, you can see pretty much every mechanic got surprised by Felipe going early (even the guy who was controlling the system). The human reaction time from the pit board to first realise what happened, and then inform Felipe would have been a few seconds. By that point, he probably would be in a position that would block the pit lane if he came to a full stop. And we have to take into account that Felipe would be set up and primed to get the best exit possible out of the box to not lose positions.
Also, to add to the issue, the lights were set-up to the top right of where Felipe was sitting. So there was no chance he could've even glanced at the left mirror to see in the first place. And he most likely didn't feel anything pulling on the car, because the systems are half designed to safely destruct themselves for cases as such as what happened. If it stayed connected to the fuel rig, there's a risk the rig itself would be yanked out of position, which could impact mechanics in front of it and potentially cause a fire if it spills into the pits.
Also also, DC had the same issue happen later on in the event, but Red Bull was still using the lollipop. So the mechanic probably raised it and then instantly lowered it again once he realised. DC's experience of having this happen previously probably also help the situation not escalate to the same level as Felipe's.
@@F1Guy-Guy it is because the light malfunctioned so Massa thought the stop was over
@@HBest94o Mechanic controlling it released his thumb too early on the trigger, which switched the lights to green.
Excellent as usual- thanks for not going down the clickbait low road
MASSA SUES BERNIE! OMG! REAL LIFE LAW & ORDER!
@@AidanMillward😮😮😮🤯🤯🤯
The only guy that Massa can sue is Piquet, the actual crasher. If somebody says you have to do something wrong, you should be man enough to say NO.
Simple, re-run the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix.
Seems to be the only way we'll see refueling return.
And replay the 66 cup final.
Plus the refuelling era wasn’t as good as nostalgia would have you believe.
If it was about to happen it should be before 2010. Now it's all done and dusted. It's absolutely pointless on doing this.
@@AidanMillwardRespectfully disagree, it brought in not only different race strategy, but differences in car design philosophy. Besides, I'd let them run unlimited fuel, so no need to economize. Want to do a three pit sprint because your car's fast, but eats tires? Go for it and burn an extra ten gallons if you like. Maybe Haas could be more interesting.
@@bobclarke5913 want to do a three pit sprint? Do two stops and then get stuck behind Jarno Trulli for the rest of the race
Why would anyone want that? Races were decided by the first round of pitstops. Teams told drivers to not race. The only position changes occurred when some nameless, faceless team member botched their only job, as Massa found out in Singapore 2008. And we got the thrill of watching every single car sit still for 9 seconds at a time, plus their entire trip down in and out of the pit box, three times per race.
Refueling was the worst period of racing in F1 history, and it can be empirically measured as such in that there were fewer race overtakes than during any other era. In fact, races without any position changes at all weren't out of the ordinary.
Your "unlimited" fuel rule wouldn't work. As you suggest yourself, there's no advantage to any other strategy than the winning one, and the engineers knew what this was before each race 20 years ago. So no one's building a car with unlimited fuel levels. They'd all know what works and build to that. The only guesswork in F1 strategy is tire wear, full stop.
This is why Aidan's opinion pieces are a good source, he waits till facts are available, rather than a rush to just get a video out.
#RobertoMorenoRules
exactly, furthermore you can actaully discuss things in the comements with out fear of people being very nasty simply because they disagree with you
If this wasn't a real story I would have guessed it was inspired by the Back to the Future trilogy. Every little change made to events will have massive consequence for anything after. If Massa wins this case, I bet it will become the biggest shitstorm F1 has ever seen because everyone involved in that season will claim their piece of the pie.
why only that season, if one race where someone cheat gets voided, why not every race every season where a team did something illegal?
Yeah, and this is why Massa doesn't really have a case. The Butterfly-effect is real here, and everyone involved in F1 can point at something that could alter everything. As much as I sympathize with him, there's too much at stake here.
@@fuzzy1dk That's pretty much the point I tried to make by calling it a shitstorm. If Massa wins this, you can expect every team and driver to start cases for anything that ever happened in the past
@@InekoBK Yeah it would set an absolutely ridiculous precedent.
Personally, I wouldn’t have a problem with Renault being retrospectively disqualified from the 2008 constructors championship and forced to return the prize money they got for that season (which would be distributed among the teams that finished behind Renault in the championship). This would be consistent with how McLaren were disqualified from the 2007 WCC for cheating.
I also wouldn’t have a problem with Nelson Piquet Jr. being retrospectively disqualified from the 2008 drivers’ championship (just like Michael Schumacher was disqualified from the 1997 WDC).
However, the FIA’s investigation in 2009 determined that Fernando Alonso was not involved in the Singapore 2008 cheating, so Alonso should not be disqualified from the race, or the season.
This retrospective action would be fair, just and consistent, and yet would not change the outcome of the 2008 drivers’ championship, meaning that Massa would not be considered the 2008 world champion.
Bearman was two years old when that all happened! Last weekend he was in Massa's old seat!
Really? I thought leclerc was in Massa's seat since Räikkönen replaced him
Also bearman's helmet is strikingly similar to Massa's helmet
That's impossible, 2008 was 5 years ago.
I'm not old.
FIGHT ME
@@lordshaxx2165 yeah I know. And thirty years ago it was the 60's in my mind.
@@klutchcustoms2428 it's hard for me to believe the v6 Hybrid Era began 10 years ago 😱
And he passed Hamilton
Gee, I wonder why Ferrari didn't press the issue as soon as crashgate was exposed? Was it because Alonso was contracted to them and Massa was just the support act?
Good point there!
That is (allegedly) exactly why. With Nando coming to drive in a few short months, Ferrari didn't wan't to risk souring that relationship as soon as it started. Plus when it came out Massa was still in recovery from his accident, his returning to F1 at all was in question.
The difference was that in 2009 when all this came out the 2008 season was done and finalized and nothing could be done.
Back in 2008 when according to Ecclestone he and others knew what had happened they could and arguably should have delted the race's results from the standings as is usual in sports.
His engineer Rob Smeadley summed it up best whilst on the Eddie Jordan and David Coulthard podcast. “ over a season you loose out on points you should have scored. But you also inherit points that you had shouldn’t have scored neither “.
The whole argument that “voiding a result would make the subsequent races look different” is also applicable to any post race penalty too, and the sport doesn’t seem to mind applying those, so for that and many other reasons, it’s not the strongest point.
F1 has dug itself a huge hole. It has been too casual about judging incidents, hoping they don't happen again instead of reviewing them & amending rules to ensure they are prevented from happen again.
Rules need to be clearer (& unfortunately more complicated) & followed more strictly. If you leave short rules open to interpretation they will not be applied consistently, even before you consider that everyone has a personal bias.
Other sports update their rules between seasons to try & make themselves better. F1 does not seem to care.
The other point is, well... when would they have voided the result? I.E... when was this 'investigation' that they apparently would have been able to do able to take place? Because if it's AFTER the Brazilian GP (but before the FIA Gala), well... that's essentially what the outcome would be
The issue I have is Massa lost points due to Ferrari's pit light system failing. But that error was not directly caused by Renault cheating so it could have presumably happened at any point during the season. If Singapore hadn't happened it is likely Ferrari wouldn't have know there was a problem to fix
@@kityhawk2000 this error is directly caused by renault cheating, closing the gap to a car length and putting ferrari mechanics under pressure, he would normally have a nice comfortable margin in hand
I'm kind of torn. I feel sorry for Massa, but I don't see why Hamilton should be punished for something he had nothing to do with - assuming the court directs that Alonso's win is taken off him (which could happen. Just because a plaintiff asks for one thing doesn't mean they get it, or _only_ get it).
I guess that Renault should be made to pay him off, maybe going halfsies with the others 🤷🏻♀️.
Renault and Ferrari should be the only teams punished as a result of the lawsuit, if any teams do get punished, that is.
Ecclestone and the FIA need to, at the very fucking least, do a proper public apology for this bullshit.
That's very funny.
Why do they need to apologize? Briatore is the one who cheated Massa by engaging in unsportsmanlike behavior.
Agreed
@GreenHornet553 do you mean the same Briatore who due to his "VAT problems" had his yacht Force Blue confiscated by Italian authorities which they sold via a surprise auction for a fraction of its value to Bernie that Briatore now uses for free whenever he wants to?
@@T_Mo271 Is it though in the case of Ecclestone? HE's the one who relighted the fire under that controversy that anyone had accepted was "done and dusted".
Bernie still seems to be pissed off that Liberty Media didn't make him some kind of "special member" of the same F1 HE sold them for a hefty sum of money and he seems to be quite willing to make things difficult for Liberty Media with his "remarks" about present and past occurrences in F1.
This is pretty much a non-issue in my opinion: as the F1 owner at the time, Bernie saw NO REASON to change the season's outcome at the time, yet a decade and a half later he tries to change the history. It looks like it all comes down to Bernie liking the idea of Michael Schumacher being the only one who won 7 world championships and therefore he retro-actively tries to screw over Lewis Hamilton. The thing is that by opening THIS can of worms, Bernie also risks opening the other cans of worms, like the ones that have been closed on controversial Schumacher, Prost and Senna championships. And that kind of paints him as an incompetent/corrupt fool.
They should redo the season. Call the cars and drivers back from retirements and race again.
Williams undoubtedly lost out the most from Renault's cheating. Showing they could still win at that time would surely have had a significant affect on Rosberg's career path and the fortunes of the team. Excellent video as always, covering details nobody else seems to notice or care about.
This reminds me of the NASCAR Cup Series fans that always say "without the Chase/Playoff system such and such would be the real champion"... Except that if they didn't have the Chase for the Cup or Playoff system in place every single team would run different strategies for the entire season and the results would almost certainly be different and thus so & so wouldn't end up being "the real champion" anyway.
Absolutely correct but that system is still ruining Nascar in my opinion. Barely watched a race since it was implemented because it's not pure racing, it forces drivers to do dumb things just to get into the "chase" that they otherwise wouldn't have done with a normal points system in place. Too much emphasis is put on winning and finishing in specific positions instead of consistency like it should be and is for every other motorsport.
For example, an underdog champion like Alan Kulwicki which won the championship in 1992, was won by the finest margins ever in Nascar history at that time. Yet he only won 2 races in 1992 and a championship like that today would basically be impossible under today's "Chase" formula. He was the 1992 champion based on raw consistency, not his win count.
Stage racing is even more silly in my opinion because that's as artificial as racing gets. I understand the premise behind why they do it (to have closer races) but the same exact effect is achieved with someone making a mistake and bringing out the yellow. I honestly think Nascar would do a lot better if they just went back to their classic format and stopped trying to sensationalize everything through artificial means just to try and make it seem more interesting than it really is.
Not to mention the "chase" formula can be downright confusing at times when a normal points system is much easier to understand. And yes before you ask, I am an American.
@@2K-Tanbest championship points system in all of racing.
This lawsuit will lead to some uncomfortable discussions as you point out. Imo, no way Renault (and by extension Alonso) should keep the credit for that win. If Bernie & Max Mosley really knew what was going on in 2008, then it seems again that F1's biggest problem in this is their own handling of the situation
It's such a mess.
Alonso was going to Ferrari.(Ferrari didn't want to attack Alonso)
Jean Todt was going to the FIA....
Renault was thinking about leaving the "sport"
The first time the case was handled Felipe was in the hospital and his manager is Nicolas Todt (so he was not going to attack his father/FIA)
Personally, i think the money settlement is the most they can do as the whole result cancellation could end up with a massive domino effect on everything else
If Bernie, FOM and FIA knew about crash gate at the time, then yes Massa deserves compensation. If however they just suspected something and didn’t investigate that’s more of a grey area, it will be interesting to see what the outcome is. But overturning of a result this late after it happened seems absurd.
Thank you for your uploads Aidan ❤
What you’re saying doesn’t make sense: unless any settlement out of courts is decided to dismiss the case, any payments to Massa will also have to come with the admission that the championship was stained. Based on the interviews for the Brazilian TV, Massa doesn’t want any settlement outside the courts.
With Lewis going to Ferrari in '25, even though Massa was racing for them there is no way they are going to let this go to court. What happened in 2008, stays in 2008. If he hadn't finished 13th would he be even bothered, what if he'd finished higher up and scored points, would he still be so bothered? No.
im sorry but i don't think you understand anything
well, you know how French courts would handle FIA matters.
still think Alonso knew the "tactic" as he wants to know everything.
He had to. Anyone else would be going “pitting me that soon? Putting so little fuel in my car? Are you mental?”
Oh Alonso knew 1000%
@@AidanMillward his strategy was how i knew at the time as well, i created a thread on the itv f1 forum to say piquet crashed on purpose only to be dismissed because apparently a driver wouldn't put himself in danger like that
I just don't understand the argument that the race should have been cancelled. From what I can tell there's no precedent for that, the FIA has never retroactively cancelled a race they just disqualify the team and/or drivers responsible for the cheating.
exactly. excluding Renault, everyone was dealt the same cards and some just played them better than others
is there any other case of this kind of cheating? I mean, there's a lot of instances of cars infringing regulation, but crashing purposely?
The whole race was cheated, not one or two cars to make them individually faster. Saying "but there's no precedent" only works if there's been a meaningfully similar situation, and there hasn't been.
I would argue that everyone was extremely affected by the cheating. The Safety Car changed the race for everyone. The only comparable illegal influence on a race would be Silverstone 2003 and Hockenheim 2000, but these were not caused by a competitor in the race (whose driver, btw, still holds the victory).
@@stephengalanis To everyone but Renault it was just a race with a safetycar, everyone was dealt and had to play the same cards
10:16 My favourite thing about that is a David Mitchell comment. "How many goals are disputed? And what was the final score?".
I don’t know how you do it but I’m glad you do .
You're referring to the 'Butterfly Effect'!
I don't think the 2008 standings can be changed because there is no way one can definitely say that the last 3 race results would be the same, had it become known immediately that the Singapore results were nullified the teams would most likely have approached the last 3 races differently, and having established that then there is no way that Massa can claim the 2008 title with any certainty and thus his case in it's entirety is baseless.
Never been keen on Bernie since I found out he tried to stop Gilles bringing his motorhome to the circuits. Gilles almost came to blows with him.
How could the Singapore result be nullified when only the Renault team is known to have cheated? All they could do is disqualify Alonso for benefiting from his team mate deliberately crashing, which would mean that Rosberg would win his first race for Williams, Hamilton would move up to second, Massa would still finish outside the points, and at the end of the season, Hamilton would become champion by a bigger margin and would not need to make a risky pass on Glock.
I've not seen any of the papers lodged with the court, I have no legal experience but I'm very sure about what I reckon. It will be interesting to see how this goes.
RIP Max Mosley, now he rides a valkyri in a thematic party with lots of leather involved
I allways find interesting that in Brazil Glock was not allowed to pit for wets, becuase to fia closed the pitlane for preperations. He is talking about this in his beyond the grid episode.
he would have ended up behind Hamilton anyway
Excelent video, I feel bad for Massa because I do think he could have won a title had things gone differently post 2008, at the same time should Hamilton suffer for something that was not his fault? odviously not, that said Massa did and has been. As you say it can also open a whole can of worms. Personally i think Massa should get the money but not the title
Does that Marshall stack in the corner go to 11?
I'm glad the claim has been downgraded to "Loss of earnings" as getting the results overturned in the very specific way that Massa's team desired, was never going to happen. The only adjustment that would realistically have been plausible would have been to disqualify Alonso retroactively. And that just means Felipe loses the championship by more, as you stated.
And messing around with results from the past is always going to open a can of worms regarding other championships. People will put themselves through some crazy nonsense if there's a potential payslip at the end of it.
Basing your case on a statement in an interview a 93 year claims not to remember giving when there is nobody left to corroborate what he said sounds "a bit iffy". Especially as, in 2013 during the case brought by Constantin Medien, he has already stated to the high court in London that "I'm learning a lot, for which I thank you, because this happened 12 years ago. I have a bit of a difficulty to remember what happened last week".
I agree. And.....Is Massa broke? I figured he'd still be a millionaire. But a financial settlement can't change the past, it can only give him money.
That statement is also partly Bernie being a sneaky weasel.
0:14. rob smedley had such a great relationship with felipe massa that both felt comfortable with this banter. almost the same as when RS had to tell FM he needed to move over for alonso.
So many F1 clickbait channels out there. This channel is like a breath of fresh air.
Results are certified and cannot be changed 14 days after a result.
I think it should be an all ot nothing. If he wins, he gets a podium celebration, a trophy, the money and all the stats change.
If he looses! He looses everything from that season, trophy, prize money and stats and the stats should show as DQ from every race
Going to be an interesting precedent for future for sure. Can think of a couple more championships that could be reopened with court cases if this one proves successful
I'm not going to go over all the ins and outs of whether Massa is right or wrong to pursue this - I'd just be repeating what plenty of others have already covered.
However, no matter the outcome of this, I feel like Massa is going to come out the other side with his reputation massively tarnished. The global respect which his emotional but dignified display post-race at Interlagos garnered him has the potential to be washed away by him being perceived as a whiner who won't accept what happened and move on with his life.
Hmmm, only 15 years later. Maybe if it turns out successful Mario will sue to overturn the 1981 Indy 500 results.
Then Paul Tracy has a claim as the 2002 Indy500 winner.
@T_Mo271 Jim Clarks family could also sue for the 1963 Indy 500 result too
@@kityhawk2000 you mean Colin Chapman's estate?
Pat symonds and fabio got suspended. So you would think the result would be not valid. It’s basically like match fixing or even drug taking like lance armstrong. For me , l would not feel comfortable taking the championship in that way. A bit like Eddie Irvine giving the winning 🏆 to his teammate Nico Salo . Even though he won the race. That is sportsmanship
Damn, these bots are quicker than Felipe DRIVING OFF WITH THE FUEL RIG AT HIS PIT STOP AT THE SAME RACE!
During a pitstop the drivers physically can not see out of their cars, so that is entirely on Ferrari
I think the most they would do would be to ban anyone involved from motorsport (as they already did with Briatore and Symonds back then), but I don't see sporting results changing.
And these days Flavio is around F1 again so not much has come of that
2021 is completely different
Decisions were literally made and rules broke in front of all our eyes thriugh the stewarding Body. I am still shocked to that day
@@marcusstrymon693 the Race Director has discretion over the Safety Car procedure as directly stated in the Regulations. Nothing was "broken", merely a procedure was altered _within the boundaries of the regulations_ and coincidentally exactly as the team principals had asked him to do before the race. It's why Mercedes didn't drag it into the court room because the lawyers advised them they'd lose any case.
@@jsquared1013 We both know that this is just a cheap excuse
NASCAR fans are very familiar with analyzing seasons with a different points format
Even if crashgate never happened, Massa would have STILL lost the championship. But he should sue Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds for fixing the race result.
Im just glad that glass of juice didn't get knocked over. I was worrying about it throughout the video
It’s further away than it looks 😅
Some think and say that Hamilton fans need to let 2021go. Whist ironically at the same time really hoping that Massa can overturn the result of 2008 and rob Hamilton of another title.
Massa really needs to let this go.
whilst you can point to an event and claim it lost him a title there are numerous other events that cost him the title if we are being honest, maybe he should sue Glock too whilst he's at it?
Maybe had he driven better he'd have won the title?
Maybe had Massa( who incidently I quite liked as a driver) actually won a title he wouldn't still be harping on 17 years later.
THEY SHOULD CALL EVERYONE BACK AND REPEAT THE SEASON
Thanks again Aidan! Loving these stories.
Felipe baby, stay cool, you not winning the championchip
It's sad to see Felipe go down this track. He has been praised for his integrity for the last 15 years regarding how unlucky he was to not win the 2008 championship. I am not a Lewis fan (although I have massive respect for his abilities) but I can't see how you can reverse a championship 15 years later. As you stated, it is a decision in the middle of a championship and other teams would have made different decision on the following races if this result was changed at the time. The same as a bad call happening in the middle of a football or cricket game doesn't determine the outcome of the game itself. It is just bad luck. Hopefully he finds peace within himself...... Equally, Lewis could feel aggrieved about losing in 2021 even though the decision was legal, it was not consistent with previous decisions. That being said, I don't feel sorry for LH as I think he had more luck than MV leading up to that race (MV being taken out by VB at Hungary and LH at Silverstone are just 2 examples). My view was that MV was the better driver throughout the season. I don't hear Daniel Ricciardo complaining about being in the wrong car at the wrong time when he was voted best driver in the world in 2014 and 2016 by Autosport and he will most likely end his career without a title so for LH to complain about not winning his 8th with luck on his side is quite frankly ridiculous.
We need a story time 2,,,the next generation.
Isn't there a rule in the FIA F1 regulations that says that with the end of season ceremony are the season standings frozen?
Also, I like that you take your time with the news to research... things.
But that's the whole case. We find out in 2009 that the race was rigged, Felipe was sad but moved on with his life.
Last year Felipe got wind that actually it wasn't 2009 when the FIA knew the race was rigged, that they knew before the 2008 end of season ceremony.
If Massa wins, i’ll throw all my money off a bridge. That’s how confident I am he’ll lose.
If Massa loses, I'll eat all my plutonium and uranium. That’s how confident I am.
Which bridge and how big a net must I use?
Where do you live .....and about what date and time of the day ...
An easy comment when, like me, you’re broke. 🤣
Where’s the bridge?
I wouldn't trust ANYTHING reported in the Daily Express.
Oh, this is gonna be good
Some of the best looking cars, those.... (from like 2004 -2008)
Re-run the entire season again but using 1986 fiat panda 4x4's, that will learn em
Best comment so far 😂😂
Cannot believe he's even doing this now, all he'll do is damage his reputation ( I worked for a company who air ambulanced him after his head injury and everyone said he was a great guy), perhaps he should ask his fellow Brazilian a couple of questions?
Just give poor Felipe his money, it’ll truly will never replace being the crowned champion in his home winning Grand Prix (talk about a dream come true) but at least he’ll be compensated for all the financial losses he was caused. Good for you Felipe, good luck 🤞🏼
All of this hinges on the word of Bernie. nearly 15 years later, who is the paradigm of honest trustworthy upstanding....
He’d have a case if McLaren scripted the race but it was Renault who weren’t in the championship fight and Ferrari messed up the pitstop anyway
I love how no one tells that the official procedure to do on race fixing is to nullify the entire race, if it is investigated in time, to make sure that exactly these sort of lawsuits do not happen. I think this rule needs to be stretched to the entire season to make everything "right" because the FIA and FOM fixed the entire season through their actions.
I like the chill, calm tone of your videos. Who knew F1 could be so relaxing
Honestly, i don't think they should change the outcome...
But do give tons of money to Massa
Stay in the light.
So alonso wins the race and lewis gets punished ? I'm no Lewis Hamilton fan but surely he would have to be directly involved in this to have his championship taken away from him
Judge. “Mr Massa, how many times did you spin at Silverstone again?”.
Massa “237 times your honour”
Judge “case dismissed”
That's not how law works at all.
For a start, there's two prongs to the legal suit by the sound of it. One is the championship and I don't think he'll win that partly because of what you say - we can't tell from "what ifs". However, if Bernie knew this and didn't investigate, then he's culpable for loss.
@@crunchyfrog555it's a joke
😂😂😂😂😂😂
A yoke
@@crunchyfrog555 But if it's judged not to have cost him the championship - and I agree that he's probably on a hiding to nothing with that - then what exactly is the scale of the loss? It's certainly not the tens of millions he's claiming for. Reputational damage maybe, but then his stock went through the roof when he took the pain of the Brazilian race on the chin, so it's hard to say that it did his reputation much harm in the long run.
Honestly, I think he'll even have a hard time convincing a court that it cost him the race. If he was careless enough to drive off with the hose in the car (yes, there's mitigation in Ferrari's flawed systems, but he can't evade all responsibility; it was him behind the wheel), then he was careless enough to make some other mistake. Which it can be demonstrated that he did, repeatedly, at Silverstone. Back to the “what-ifs”.
Of course if Bernie and the other authorities knew something and didn't investigate, they're negligent. But how do you prove that when some of the most important witnesses - Max and, especially, Charlie - are dead? (And Bernie himself is 93. Not hard to convince the court that his memory ain't what it was.) For his sake, I hope his lawyers have some killer evidence that they're keeping under their hats until the trial.
On the surface this appears to be little more than a money grab. Massa's argument only makes sense if the F1 championship was contested only for the duration of Singapore. It's impossible to prove what would've happened if the Singapore result had been declared void. It all seems very odd and more than a little confusing.
The issue I have is Massa lost points due to an error with Ferrari's pit stop lights. Presumably after this error happened Ferrari were able to prevent the issue from reoccurring. So if we pretend for a moment that the crash never happened it is possible that the problem could have just happened during a normal pitstop because Ferrari would not be aware of the issue.
Massa has no basis for assuming that the remainder of the season would have played out identically regardless of the Singapore results. Every event has impacts on the future. Change the past, and the future becomes invalid. Team strategies (particularly toward the end of the season) change based on the points situation.
Exactly.
Here's another thought. If Massa gets his way then LH should sue as well for the result in the race following Singapore where LH finishes 12, courtesy of Massa, As Massa knocked into LH requiring LH to pit and effectively ending his race as LH was able to rejoin the race but now in last place and was unable to work his way back up the field and ended in 12th place.
Massa is full of nonsense because he's effectively saying he would've been WDC if it wasn't for that incident but there's nothing to support that arguement. He wasn't WDC because he didn't score enough points. He didn't get the job done. He finish in is last place because of driver error. The next race he finishes 8th and was bumped up to 7th because of a FIA decision but his poor performance and finishing higher in the points, again, driver error.
The next race Massa finishes 2nd and LH finishes 1st. (The one driver he needed to finish ahead of - and didn't), again, he didn't get the job done. (LH did get the job done)
His expectation and his thought process that he should've been WDC is delusional at best. As FM and Ferreira entered the last race, for some inexplicable reason, they entered with a mindset that MF will become WDC if he wins the race and LH does not finish higher than 6th. It's fairytale thinking.
Effectively they're believing that all you have to do is win the race and the best driver in the world won't be able to finish higher than 6th because,(let's say this again - the BEST DRIVER IN THE WORLD) he needs 5th place to win.
They are not living in reality. LH should sue to have MF Disqualified from that race based on mental instability and dysfuncting cognitive functionality. He may appear physically sound but mentally he's in la la land.
MF is not WDC because he didn't get the job done. LH did. LH didn't have to to finish 1st, in the last race of the season to win. LH only needed to finish 5th. LH didn't rely on the failure of another to win, he ensured he finished 5th. He got the job done.
At no point was MF a WDC and the opportunity to do so disminished the closer they got to the start line of the last race. And to believe if LH didn't have the 6pts from finishing 3rd, he would be WDC, NO, he wouldn't. All it would mean is LH would've had to finish 3td instead.
It's all gaslighting. And it's operating from and emotional standpoint instead of facts and reason. If MF finishes 2nd in Singapore, would anyone be having this conversation? And, NO, MF would not have been WDC either, because LH then would've finished 4th.
If MF wants to be play fair and objective, we disallow the race, also erasing his driver error pitt stop blunder, the outcome of any race thereafter becomes uncertain and hence unknown, so the standings of the WDC as listed prior to the start of Singapore become the final standings of the 2008 season. But, he's not going that route because he will only finish 2nd, LH still wins.
Whichever FM wants to slice it and dice it, and no time was he ever a World Champion.
(Sorry, this went way long).
@@mireilledavidson9427 massa is not world champion because he did get the job done but the FIA brought in a crazy rule to turn the races into a lottery
massa got pole at monaco, he led monaco comfortably in the wet, lewis hamilton crashed and pitted a minute behind
massa got the job done, lewis hamilton didn't get the job done, but simply because there was a safety car and simply because hamilton crashed and pitted before that safety car he was instantly promoted to effective race leader with a pitstop on top, massa who got the job done and did nothing wrong suddenly is trapped on track and is not allowed to pit
massa got the job done and deserved 10pts, if hamilton was a better driver and didn't crash then he would not receive that 8pt turnaround in his direction and wouldn't be world champion
hamilton is the crash lottery and rigging world champion of 2008 and in any other year massa pits comfortably in both instances to cover off hamilton and be 13pts better off in the championship
@@mireilledavidson9427 btw hamilton did need to rely on a failure of others to win the championship, he didn't get the job done and ran wide falling down to 6th place, he let the championship slip on track just like 2007 and had to rely on the rain intensifying, massa was the one who again got the job done in that race in another dominant display over hamilton
Compensation is what's being asked for and he might get it. But F1 results are set in stone after the prize-giving regardless of subsequent revelation - not the case for every sport (cf Lance Armstrong's cycling results, Russia's doping in Olympics) but as you made clear, it's the case here. And yes, if the Singapore GP played out differently, it's likely Fuji would have had a different outcome too, that was a really scrappy race. And the last thing - there is NO proof that Ferrari's wouldn't have botched Massa's pitstop anyway.
Why do you have pictures of Luca Badoer?
You definitely have a twisted way of looking at the thing but I understand your ideas about this particular thing!
13:35 I don’t know why “carnage” is the prominent counter argument that it is: If something is unjust, it should be reverted. All of this could’ve been avoided if the cheating had been investigated immediately after the race, or after the last race. I don’t know why Alonso hasn’t been disqualified from that race yet, after all, the only reason for his win was his team cheating. That is the bare minimum that has to change. Yes, it is annoying that it happens 16 years later, but whose fault is it? Massa’s? No. Ecclestone and Mosley, who decided that it might hurt the reputation of the sport. Well, look how that turned out!
I don’t get why people blame Massa for suing. This was not handled correctly and he is victim of that. I can understand people who say that the championship should not be changed, and I’m against stripping Hamilton of the title as well, but he should seek every compensation he can get.
It’s like saying “we know, there has been knew evidence that shows it wasn’t you who did it, but, honestly, you’ve been here for 16 years, and it would be too much of a change for all of us, so there’s nothing we can do for you.”
I don't blame Massa I feel sorry for him but this wasn't the only unfair decision to have happened this season. A lot of championships have gotten decided by drivers losing out through no fault of their own but I don't think the right thing to do is DQ everyone in that race. Renault alone should be DQed
I ay be slow on the up take here but why would Singapore (have) be(en) cancelled?
Well there are good arguments for both. In Massa's case people would see him as a better driver than they do if he was champ, and it wasn't even his fault he lost. Plus the financial gains he would have had from being champ would be pretty big. Massa has a right to be mad about this. But on the other hand, it was almost 16 years ago. And Bernie does have a point about F1 not needing that bad publicity. It would be shambles. So as for me, do i want Massa to win? Yes. Will he? Possibly. Maybe not that much money tho. Anyways great work as always Aidan (i haven't finished watching)
If he thinks he’s winning this, then he’s deluded
No actually it depends. There is good grounds for financial loss, not so much for the championship award. If it is shown that Bernie said those things and didn't investigate, their negligence made him lose money. That's a straightforward ground for suing.
oh sure, he can get compensation but he isn't getting his title, that part is delusional.@@crunchyfrog555
@@crunchyfrog555So Mercedes can sue Masi and Red Bull also for 2021, and that isn’t happening is it?
In fairness, he could win it
@@thelegend5243 No
This legal case is certainly more interesting than anything that happens in F1 "races" these days.
Spa 2008 was daylight robbery
The whole race was hopelessly tainted. I felt at the time, and still feel, that the race results should have been removed from the Championship.
Remember when some of the cars had excessive legality plank wear so they voided the Austin race? Of course you don't because that's not how it works. The most annoying aspect of this is that the correct response, then as is now, would be to simply DQ Renault from that race. When someone cheats, you penalize them, not cancel the entire event. So if you DQ Renault, Hamilton scores more points and Massa still gets none. Even arguing that the cheating offense affected the race strategy doesn't stand up. The strategy change isn't what caused the pit stop gaffe for Massa. They messed up a pitstop. That was just plain human error.
Indeed.
Guess Baelestre never got the memo, otherwise he wouldn’t have annulled the results of the 1986 Rally San Remo.
Actually, when Michael Schumacher was disqualified from the 1997 season (for deliberately crashing into Villeneuve), the points scored in all the races were not recalculated, nor were Schumacher’s previous wins awarded to the drivers who came 2nd. The points scored by all other drivers remained the same, the only change in the WDC was Schumacher moved to the bottom of the standings.
So if Nelson Piquet Jr. was retrospectively disqualified from the 2008 drivers’ championship, Massa would not gain 2 more points from the race in which he was 3rd and Piquet was 2nd - therefore Massa would not become the 2008 world champion.
@@timonsolus Exactly my point. There is no precedent for voiding the results of a race (that I'm aware of). Whether they recalculate points or not, the best possible outcome is a Renault DQ that does nothing at all to help Massa.
@@iangrant8290 : I'm not sure that Alonso should be disqualified from the race, and definitely not from the entire 2008 season. He was investigated by the FIA in 2009, and the FIA found him innocent of wrongdoing.
Nelson Piquet Jr. definitely should be disqualified from 2008, though, as should the Renault team.
Renault should pay back their prize money from the 2008 season. That money should be awarded to all the other teams that finished behind Renault in the championship, as they would all finish 1 place higher - (except for the Toyota and Super Aguri teams, which are no longer in F1 - not even under new names.)
The FIA should use the money that would have gone to Toyota and Super Aguri to pay Massa's legal costs, and compensate him for their failure to investigate promptly in 2008.
I agree Massa should get a monetary settlement, but there are so many parties and other situations that would be drug through the courts endlessly. It's like a bad time travel movie...
Going back and paying sportsmen based on the wins they were robbed of bad calls by series/officials would be a really weird precedent to set.
We have to consider the context, otherwise there is no expectation of accountability from sporting bodies, and historically many decisions have been reversed. When it concerns a conspiracy at the highest level of the sport to fix race results and suppress information that affects results, then Massa does have a legitimate case. If this is allowed then F1 is no longer considered fair sport and the fans and sponsors will leave. Sulayem is currently under investigation for artificial manipulation of race results, it's taken very seriously by the sport's stakeholders...
I really feel for Felipe. He's a top guy and the circumstances in which the championship slipped through his fingers are really cruel. He defo deserves some kind of compensation. However, if Lewis is stripped of this championship, he can take things to court for missing out on 2007. There were a couple of cars ahead of him (I think also in the Brazilian race) that had questionable fuel and were in the points. If they were disqualified, Lewis would then get a few more points to push him ahead of Fernando and Kimi. At the time, he said "I want to win the championship on the race track, not in a court room. Kimi's champion." He'd still match Michael with 7. Then there are all the other instances you said (Damon Hill for '94, etc)
Only himself to blame for him not winning that championship
What a giant waste of everyone’s time.
Edit:The lawsuit is a waste of our time. The video is great and very informative as to WTAF is happening
I'd be amazed if this ever sees the inside of a court room other than a hearing to declare the action is time barred.
I don’t think anyone wants this to actually go through court because the precedent could be very very dangerous in the long run
The other scandal of that srason was Toyota waving Hamilton through to steal Massa's title at Interlagos. Hamilton talks about transparency in F1, let's start there! Publish all the communications between teams in that race. 🤔
Or you could just watch Glock’s final lap where he can barely control the car as he’s on dry tyres on a wet track. So was Trulli.
If you can watch that and still tell me with a straight face Glock moved over then I do t know what else can be said.
I think Massa deserves the champion and his Money. We as a human being need to stop hiding the big corporation mistakes/corruption on behalf of show success. F1 needs to pay for the mistakes/lies and start to be transparent on the decisions
What year is it? This happened so long ago and the championship was not decided because of this one moment.
Lets laugh at this guy.
I get why he wants this, but bro gotta let this go...
I think will lead to an out of court settlement. I cannot see the case going the distance. I rewatched the highlights. Ferrari didn't help Massa at all that race along with a spin. In my opinion the punishment should have been Renault disqualified from the race. This would still leave Hamilton champion by a greater margin.
Aidan mentioned great wet weather drives. My thoughts turn to Jenson Button at the Canadian GP.
BTW Aidan, have you thought about doing some more sim racing? Perhaps on a second channel?
Thing about Button and Canada is that he put his own team mate in a wall and then fired Alonso off later. He did so much to lose that race only to luck out at the end.
I don’t rate it that high for that reason
@@AidanMillward fair enough. I just remember him going from last to first. I didn't recall the incident with Alonso and his team mate. I seem to vaguely remember a great wet drive from Mansell where he was out on either wets or intermediates beyond their shelf life; seeking wet parts of the track to keep them cool.
The Brazilian currency is the Real, though its not the same Real it was when Felipe was a kid. Brazil replaced its currency at least twice in the 1990s.
1920s Germany strategy.
Seems like a major case of what ifs. Im no legal expert but that doesnt seem like much of a case to me. But if Massa wants to waste his money and provide some entertainment during the Max Verstappen show then let him.