What is your problem? Seriously! Why do you harass me? You police my videos looking for the smallest nuance of something original I may have created then you make a point to tell me that I'm not special. Someone else thought of something before I did. WHY? Why are you so intent on making me feel like I have no value as a human being? What motivates this type of behavior? Were you beaten as a child by someone who looked like me?
I gotta agree with DTP, that's a pretty douchey approach. He never claimed to be inventing anything new and simply said the solution is a bit convoluted, which it is. it just happens to work really well on cube printers.
He never said it was his idea, and I doubt that it was first done by Ratrig. Ball bearings locating on steel rods seems to be very common. Just look at the e3d toolchanger, it used bearings and rods to locate the printhead onto the tool head. Ratrig just put it on a bed.
Think you missed the point of my video. I never said a bed doesn’t expand. In fact I showed the effects at the center. The point of the video was, if you use the paper method (as creality and other companies tell you to do in their manual) you’ll get the same results heated or unheated because the bed doesn’t expand any measurable amount above the adjustment knobs. And even though the center moves, you can’t adjust that out using the paper method. So if it’s a small print, print over the adjustment knobs. On a second point, I do have a BSEE and 40+ years of design experience including thermal design of heat sinks and design for thermal environments. But explaining all that in a RUclips video is not only boring but wastes a lot of time (just like it did here). Finally if your going to question my techniques where I did establish a hypothesis and then test and measure, at least do the same instead of making a bunch of drawings only to never actually show in empirical form the measurements of the large warpage your drawings imply.
on a personal note, I'd just like to say that THIS was quality content. You gave Chep the praise he deserves for running a quality channel while at the same time addressing his false claims. More quality content like this and less rambling about the evils of the world, please. This was quality content.
Yes! And he was really, really polite towards Chep, especially considering most of what Chep says is wrong, ignorant, and infuriatingly unresearched. Looking forward to more super nice videos like this from DPT!
@@bernardtarver Well, after seeing a 0.07 mm difference in the middle when he tested heating the bed to 60°C he concludes (at 6:12 in his bed heating video) that he doesn't think it matters if you heat it or not before leveling. That's an odd conclusion, in the face of his own tests. He does suggest that you could print your parts directly above the adjustment knobs, and yes, if you do that then you don't need to heat it before leveling. However, in my experience bed adhesion is worse at the adjustment sites, so I prefer the center, and if your initial layer is 0.2 mm then it really makes quite a lot of difference if it's off by 0.07 mm!
@@bernardtarver Huh? 0.2 mm is 50% more than 0.13 mm. That's a huge difference! If you don't take that into account you'll have severe over extrusion and squishing and bed adhesion problems.
After watching CHEP's video, I find this whole discussion nonsense for 2 reasons: 1. He didn't claim beds don't warp, he just showed that beds won't change height at the mounting points, whilst it warps in the unsupported areas (e.g. the center spot). 2. His video is only referenced for manual bed levelling, for which is in fact true, that levelling your four outer points doesn't really depend on the temperature. His verdict is "if you want to print something small, put it in the corner" (5:07-5:41 in his video) as it won't be effected by bed warping. The story for ABL is of course different, as it allows the whole surface to be used. And that's essentially the whole flaw of manual BL, you can only use a small sweetspot at a time and never the whole bed itself with proper Z height. So imo his statement is right to use at least the ones that are not affected by temperature. Besides that, his measurement methods itself seem to be valid and properly thought through. So I don't really get your point about being not scientific. It is simply the answer to the "hypothesis" if you should preheat your bed when manually levelling it and the answer is: no, doesn't matter, you can't prevent warping anyway (with standard equipment) so use the corners.
@@DesignPrototypeTest They're not trolls, and they're not trolling you. They're just misinformed. Try not to take the internet so personally and remember that social media (which this is) has fundamentally changed the way we interact with one another...for the worse.
@@DesignPrototypeTest Let the trolls be trolls, I'd recommend to focus more on the constructive side of your community and leave the haters alone. I strongly believe in the four sides model of communication, so misinformation can come from either the sending or receiving side (or both). As I can see, CHEP never neglected the fact that beds warp, in fact he states that the center point moved up to 0.07mm (which I also think isn't too much, but he only measured it up to 60°C). He mentioned only, that the cornes remained at the same height, which are used for manual bed levelling, so there is no need for hot levelling the bed, you can use these areas safely fr your prints. When someone makes a "bed warping is a myth" out of it, it is simply his lack of understanding and not CHEP's statement. Some people just want to hear what they wanna hear
The ball-bearing setup to handle bed expansion is not only a good solution, it's in practice on several printers right now. My Rat Rig V-Core 3 uses a 3-point kinematic bed system where the bed posts end in steel balls that ride on channels made of steel bars at 120 degree angles from one another and uses magnets to keep the bed stable. This is an optimum setup and completely rids you of bowing/bubbling. This same system has been deployed on everything from the Ender 3 to multi-thousand-dollar MakerBots/etc. The Rat Rig takes it a step further and adds independent steppers for each contact point, meaning you never have to tram your bed, ever.
I'd like to second this and say that the V Core 3 and various similar designs are the absolute best tech right now in the hobby 3dp sector. Everyone looking into hobby grade printers should consider one unless they don't have the time to crimp their own connectors or learn the basics of Klipper
@@TheRAINMan059 I agree they are the best designs available right now, but I wouldn't recommend them to a beginner in the hobby under most circumstances. The exception would be people like mechanical and electrical engineers. Everyone else should buy a mostly assembled, cheaper printer to start with
I'm curious, does it take into account the uneven heat provided by the heating element? That's a cause for dips and valleys in deltas, which otherwise wouldn't have this problem due to the way they mount their build plates.
I think if Chep had made it clear that his result that the effect was negligible was only for the Ender 3 v2, and not a general statement for all 3d printers, it would have been less easy to be misled.
Chep replied here further down in his defense. This "gentlemen" didn't even bother to reply to him or pin his comment. That says a lot about this guy. To me anyway.
If you're interested there is a phenomenon known as negative thermal expansion (NTE) seen in some materials where they actually shrink with heating, and not because of a phase transition
What is true in theory only matters if it impact practice. Chucks measurements seem to indicate that the expansion, at the temperatures we print at, is fairly insignificant. No doubt it's ideal to have a bed probe measure "level" at the exact temperature you are going to print. But, for basic prints, his finding seem to indicate you probably don't need to. No need to overcomplicated your life.
I have several Ender 3 v2's and all with CR-Touch installed. I have noticed that GLASS beds (since my firmware does an auto-mesh build every print) will actually become MORE level after several prints in a row, the heat apparently settles them into a better level....which makes sense, hours of a heated bed will try to reach equilibrium. This was indicated by observing the mesh displayed after several hour prints in a row. I love CHEP's content too but always thought that particular video a bit suspect after my own experiences.
I fought with the plate concavity when my ender-3 pro was new. Then I upgraded to bl touch and Marlin 2. I learned that if Creality used Marlin to it's potential, I could have had a 9 or 25 point manual mesh using paper and interface control without a sensor. I'm still not sure why Creality still ships with early Marlin.
With the center of the bed being prone to the most change in dimension, the first step is to make the center of the bed static using a screw and spacer to prevent any movement; that becomes your control point, and makes the edges move easier as all force gets redirected to them. At that point, low-friction methods like nylon/Teflon washers using the oval hole design you described would be much more successful, combined with captive large-diameter spacers housing the springs that would prevent X/Y movement of the spring and screw. The only drawback is that the oval slots only work with uniform warping in a predictable direction, but there are so many factors involved in the heat distribution and external cooling that it would be very difficult to control that. One possible way to compensate for all directions is to use a large circle that the screw can move in all X/Y directions, and a larger washer/screw head so it still retains the bed at a specific height while allowing movement to a certain distance in any X/Y direction. Depending on how much distance is already designed in a bed between the existing scre holes and the heater elements, this design may be retrofittable to existing beds. Since it only consists of removing bed material and adding common small hardware in the form of screws, washers, and spacers, it should be relatively inexpensive but require great skill to properly modify the existing bed.
I have a delta printer and it holds the bed down on the corners with top pressure clamping down rather than screws. The advantage is some gap between the edge of the bed and the clamp arms, so the bed can actually expand from heating. HOWEVER, since the heating elements in beds are not uniform and never heat the entire plate evenly you still have to map the bed for raised or lowered areas.
thanks for this video. very well explained all of it. i just wonder now about glass beds? for example if they do or dont expand, if it happens differently and what is the best attachment options
Thankyou DPT for you're explanation on the changing shape of the bed when heated. When using probing to get a very good first layer, is the adjustment just made on the first layer or does it fade out after a few layers? Or is it just to get very good even adhesion to bed then next layer has no adjustment added and blasts on top?
With an aluminum bed and heat change of 80C you’d expect to see maximum expansion of .2mm. That being said, depending on the internal stresses and manufacturing process it’s could be much more, or much less. It really depends. I always reset my Z offset with any temp change.
So I have a CR Touch, I run a Cold calibration, I get the values, I run a 60C calibration and I get the same values so with at least 60C there isn't a change. I am going to be printing some higher bed requirement materials soon, so I will be cycling the bed upwards of 160C. I wonder at what temperature these changes are happening and what materials are being used? I have sitting ready to install a 6061-T6 material bed. Currently I have the oem bed on. So at PLA 60C temperatures with my bed I have zero changes. It would be neat to find out what material each bed is made out of. IMHO if you have a stationary bed it would be best to get one made of a material with a low linear coefficient of expansion.
According to my bltouch the deviation is almost 0.5 mm @110C on my tempered glass. It breaks the screws on my setup. I'm looking some other materials like fiberglass or carbonfiber.
1/4in or thicker cast aluminum plate and a keenovo heater. Just make sure to get a heater with cutouts for mounting holes. And AC is great, but only if you are comfortable with wiring AC stuff.
Before the comments get blocked I have a question, sooo you have a warp bed or with bumps and the only way to get rid of those is shaving the imperfections with a CNC or a milling machine if you do it without heating the bed the bed must be flat wright, what would happen if you machín it with the bed heated to printing temperatures??? Will it shave more or less ???
Why printers even have that BS economy mode is so far beyond me. I have never once been able to turn off my bed heater and actually keep the print on the bed...
In my opinion the forces that are created by thermal expansion are not constrained by the flimsy mounting system. I havent checked aluminum but a glass bed bows more than a layer height everytime the heater came on during PID
This highly depends which glass you use and how tight you clamp it. If glass has the chance to expand without being forced into tention it is a material with very low bowing. I print on normal 150C floating glas with aboslutly now bowing when I use only weak clamps. This weak clamps are not able to hold back the bowing of FR4. The 400C rated glass from creality for ex. is even better...
When I saw CHEP say that it's a myth - part of me wanted to speak up, but CHEP's content is 3d printing light -- ender 3s, the expansion on those beds -- the thin tinfoil used by creality is so insignificant that why bother. His target audience is not enthusiasts. So for his purposes the bed is stable and is irrelevant. In all my work with larger machines bed's, MIC6 machined thick 9-12mm quality aluminum beds expand quiet significantly. The entire reason I let my big machines heat soak for 10-15 minutes after they reach temperature so the bed expansion is done. And anyone who thinks beds don't expand -- turn off pid loop on the bed, and watch bang-bang heating and look for z-banding. But again -- not CHEP's audience.
I'm not even sure why we even have to discuss this? Thermal expansion is a known fact, even outside of the 3d printing world. And no you don't need a science degree for that just basic school education.
@@kachler67 Just with the basic fact how he measured it. Saying doesn't exists for me so it doesn't exists with 3d printers. He wrote some comments as well that indicates it.
@@TheOfficialDarkICE How should he have measured it instead? To me the measuring setup seems appropriate and suitable. He even says in his conclusion, that the bed didn't move only on the corners, whilst the mid changes height. So I see no validation for your statement, that he claims it's a myth. The only point I would criticise is that he only measured it up to 60C, would be interesting how it behaves beyond that
@@kachler67 For example thermal expansion does not only happen at the corners or in the middle of the bed. Different temperatures need to be tested. Even how the bed is heated needs to be considered. Every Printer is new case that needs to be examined. At the end Enders are know for warped beds even without thermal expansion. My Ender 3 is awful in that regards.
If we set over the aluminum bed a thin piece of glass do we not minimize the issue? It would be nice to see some tests. Sorry for bad English. I appreciate you standing for your point of view, keep up the good content!
@@razvanilea problem is glass will tend to bow/flex with the metal underneath. It wont bow/flex AS MUCH as the metal underneath, but it will still be a measurable amount. On smaller beds, it wont be enough to be an issue. On larger beds, though, it will be enough that you still need to correct the underlying issue
nice video. well explained. am wondering about the bed bowing upwards. would say the supports dont confine rotation so hinge at each end basically. and it doesnt confine it upwards because the spring is much less stiff compared to the bed. the supports probably give some tension force along its axis which would be facing inwards when the bed expands. maybe they could put the bottom of the supports in a wider stance so when the bed expands the force is just downwards. the ball bearings i think is a great idea. just use ball bearings on all supports except for 1. it would need something to stop the bed rotating about the single solid support though
most modern printers I have uses the Maxwell Kinematic system that allows for expansion while keeping the bed constrained. They sit balls on three points, that rest on magnetic guide pins.
Just hanging out waiting for the next GMC video, when I found this channel because of my desire for a 3d printer. Now I have a 3d printer still in the box, so I'm learning as much as I can to be successful in the first week, rather than be upset for a month lol.
Common... I thought you was gonna demonstrate a methos of resolving the issue, but then you concluded with bed probes. I am currently considering methods for the same reason...
The very best practice where Thermal expansion is used is on automotive repairs To replace the bearings the new one got into the freezer for a couple of hours to get it freezing cold, the other part is getting hot with an blow torch so the assembly is as easy as "press" the bearing with your hands into place, otherwise it will need an hydraulic press to do the job
My hypothesis experiment is to use a laser to heat the surface of the bed only the area were the filament will be laid . I placed yesterday a description only to be taken down don't know why.
There's even more to it than this. It takes more time for the material to finish expanding than it does to heat up. So you can't just heat your bed to temp and measure it - you have to wait for it to finish expanding. IIRC this is very difficult to calculate. You might want to check out how RatRig deal with this problem - it's called a Maxwell Kinematic Mount. That probably won't work on a bed slinger, though (another reason to do away with the bed slinger design). Also the material the bed is made from matters a LOT - rolled and extruder aluminium expands for more unevenly than cast aluminium...and then there's thermal shock to consider (i.e. permanent warping as a result of heating too rapidly from one side). It's a minefield, and the bigger the bed, the bigger the problem.
This is other account which i commented first. I wanted you to watch my video, if you have 10 minutes to spare, video about bed leveling which i called "true bed leveling". As an mechanical engineer, i hate "paper method".
Great video. I really liked how you made warping caused by thermal expansion accessible. Kinematic coupling is what you are proposing. There is some really great literature on this out there, kinematic mounts are used in precision engineering and research quite commonly to deal with the sort of thermal expansion you describe. A US company, I think mandala rose or mandala rose works or something is selling a magnetic kinematic bed mount that might be worth looking at for inspiration, you could probably build something similar for a few $ with ball end bolts, cheap magnets and a couple of printed parts. I think it uses "Kelvin coupling" where one point is constrained in all three axies, one is constrained in two(say XZ) and the third is just constrained in Z. Allows even predicable thermal expansion. Have a look at the Annex Engineering Gasherbrum K3 3d printer, you can find the design on github, with edrawings so you can have a look at how they did it. They used maxwell kinematic joints which essentially constrain 3 points in two axis each but all pointing toward the center. Again allows for even and predicaable thermal expansion, but with expansion happening from the middle out, as opposed to from one of the mounts out in the kelvin coupling system. This coupling system for the bed was one of the things that enticed me to build one. I'd love to see a great kinematic bed mount solution for the ender 3. I think it would have to be a kelvin type system so that you could keep two of the mounts constrained in the Y so as not to introduce too much play and additional resonance into the system.
I dont think Cheps point was wether or not the bed expands. The point was wether this expansion impacted or not in the bed leveling. And for pla it didnt.
And yet his words have caused the trolls to come on my videos where I talk about bed expansion and tell me that I'm wrong. "Bed expansion is a myth." They think CHEP with the superior subscriber count knows more than I do and any video where I talk about something he dismissed is an incorrect video. They don't understand the nuances of the physical properties of metal and the engineering of the printer for themselves. It's just a popularity game to them. They think they are doing right to attack me so that I will stop spreading incorrect information.
@@DesignPrototypeTest So? CHEP is not responsible for a person leaving a comment on your video. People are allowed to think CHEP has superior knowledge or yourself has superior knowledge. But surely they will decide that based on the content of both your videos. Subscriber count or just stating the other person doesn't know what they are doing is unlikely to convince people.
IMHO... these should be floating beds restrained in a single corner that allows expansion and contraction. We treat these beds as fixed and imoveable platforms and then heat them while attempting to use that measurement as a basis for tramming! The height of insanity...
The reason he is saying it doesn't is because he is selling a circuit board with plastic switch you touch the nozzle against to level the bed. And I bet people are saying won't the hot nozzle and bed cause problems
I'm not a Thermal Engineer but I do dress like one. I watched CHEP's video got part of the way through it and turned it off. Metal plates don't expand. Tell that to your BBQ plate as you watch the fat run off your steak as you cook it. Nice video DPT. Well explained. Also remember that the greater the heat the great the expansion until melting point.
Are you sure you watched the video? Please tell me where Chep states "Metal plates don't expand" ruclips.net/video/NlUO-5EtB44/видео.html Chep replied here in the comment section this guy didn't even bother to reply to him or pin his comment so others can see what he has to say in h is defense. That tells me all I need to know about this guy.
@@edstar83 you don’t have to like someone for their conclusion to be correct. CHEP is a nicer guy but DPT is correct. Only one matters when you’re looking up facts. DPT is an engineer and it shows: he doesn’t care if the guy who built the bridge that fell is a nice guy. It is wrong. He isn’t mean to CHEP either.
I would love to see a video with the math behind this and do a real test with surface trace (could be a bltouch with a big mesh like 30x30 points) and test it at various temps like room temp, 40°, 50° all the way to 100 or 110 and compare the mesh, maybe if you print Pla and your room temp is like 25°C and you take your bed to like 50°C there is not much of a difference, but to 110°c the bed would get really warped. Pd: keep the good work!
I've tried another solution, attached glass bed to the heated alu bed with rubber bands, so I got 4 rubber bands running along the x and y axis. Those are tight latex ones so corners are firmly compressed, and it levels out those concave edge centers of the bed. It worked for me, before that my ender 3 had huge problems with first layers, but I dont have a bl touch to test it indepth.
@Jay Aristide, there was few options, I could put 4 clamps along each side to compress those edges. But I came with this solution, and it's neat, other option is to use sticky surface that doesnt require heated bed
@@jfaristide This won't help much without mesh leveling. Crealitys printers are know for warped beds. Even without thermal expansion. My Ender 3 is so warped without an bltouch nothing would stick.
Chep did not claim bed expansion is a myth. He found out how negligible the effects of heating is on print bed levelling and gave us actual numbers. I wish you had done the some printing to prove your argument but right now it is purely theoritical. Also, Rat Rig vcore 3 bed mounts already tries to address this problem but I don't have one and so I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes.
the effects might be negligible on an ender 3 with a teeny-tiny bed, but they are anything but negligible on anything larger. Stop Stanning Chep, he was *flat wrong*
I do have a Rat Rig V-Core 3 and it addresses the problem pretty well. you still need to probe at printing temp to get an accurate mesh, but when you compare it to a cold mesh, you can see the system works very well, as there is little to no evidence of bowing or bubbling from heating.
@@jfaristide I don't disagree. Let me clarify.. I'm skeptical about Chep's claim too and haven't experimented with levelling the bed cold. There is no actual printing done in this video and so this is even less credible than Chep's video where here had a result on specific printer.
@@nbalagopal it's not less credible, though. It's the *laws* of thermal expansion explained in colored pencil. It doesn't require any printing to fully debunk what Chep said, simply a rudimentary grasp on physics.
@@jfaristide Well in that case, the theoritical approach here could've taken this further to consider the extent of the effect for a specific bed size...which was also not done. No actual printing and no specific bed sizes considered is what makes this less credible to me.
he is wrong the bottom of the print will become irregular i have cr 10 smart pro when i brint abs the middle is like a pond because of the temp so iam trying to use aluminum sheet under the flexible sheet to reduce the magnetic power
I thought that was a good demonstration of the theory. On the other hand, Chuck did the experiment and found the effect negligible _on the printers he tested_. The bottom line is, YMMV depending on many factors. I think Chuck's data is certainly worth considering if you're using a Chinese printer with a relatively thin, spring-mounted build plate made from rolled a aluminum sheet like he used. Try it yourself, do what works for you, but don't assume it will work the same universally.
Chep replied in the comment section this dude didn't even bother to replying to him or pin his comment. Now I remember why I've never subscribed to this channel.
CHEP by action disagrees with his own findings. He noticed his ender 3 did better with a glass bed, even though it was “barely affected by the heat” in the measurements. This is without measuring anything, he already came to the correct conclusion before the flawed test.
@@H0mework My Ender3 also does far better with a glass bed. Because it came with a warped build plate made from shitty rolled aluminum. The glass is simply flatter. The fact that Chuck gets better results on glass doesn't necessarily mean thermal expansion is the reason.
Well if you calibrate with multiple points at bed target temperature for the material used and there are no huge fluctuations anymore, it isn't really as relevant is it? - so maybe that's what someone means when he says its a myth?
except thats not what chep did, at all. he calibrated on top of the screws where there would be no difference, then once in the middle. if your test is fundamentally flawed, then your results will be, too.
To be fair, if I recall correctly, chep didn't say that bed expansion is a myth. His point was that with his ender 3 setups, leveling the bed while cold or hot doesn't really affect adhesion while printing PLA. I remember watching it and disagreeing with him at the comments that on higher temps the expansion could seriously cause trouble. But as he said, If you print something big, you are ok and if you bring something small, you can always print it over a levelling knob. In any case, thanks for the theory. That comment is just another case of 3d printing people that heard something, misinterpreted it and share it with the rest. Sad but it happens a lot
The fact that you didn't even bother to reply to Chep's comment here in the comment section or at least pin it so doesn't get buried and others can see what he has to say in his defense. Say's a lot about you as a person. And you just reminded me why I've never subscribed to your channel.
I'm not the bad guy. I'm not attacking CHEP. I'm just explaining things so that newbies don't have a misunderstanding. Everything about your comment is accusatory. CHEP has hundreds of thousands more subscribers than this channel. His comment has 37 up votes. It's at the top of the list without me putting a pin in it. I'm not able to pin comments from mobile, so half the time I'll read a comment that I would like to pin but I don't because I'm not on my PC. I didn't respond to his comment when he left it because there was really nothing for me to say. I sat in the video he gave his response. Leave it there. If anything I let him have the last word which I should be committed for. No? Of course, not. Everything I do makes me the bad guy in your eyes.
Hi again,.. I see you havent had time to respond to my previous comment, and i can see why by the comments lol... But hopefully youve had time to chill and pass on the makkah in here. My msg relates to the issue with heat expansion from heated beds on 3D printers... Well id like to say, im pretty much like, 99.9% sure ive cracked the issue and have the solution on my lap. ive just finished desihning it and its simple! Im currently redisigning my homemade printer and the concept has been in my mind for my own personal use... So id like to show you a picture of the design if your interested in seeing it...! Give me a shout if your curious enuf to know. regards. Scema3D Thats my Up and commng channel
I feel like if this was a large scale problem with a large affect on print quality, then everyone would be talking about it commonly. Most people pre-heat the bed, get most (if not all) of the expansion out of the way, and auto bed level. There is not enough expansion left after auto leveling to make a difference in the real world (in my experience.)
Goodness you make a video bashing someone's comments as the dumbest you've ever seen and you can't even stand a comment on your video which might be nit picking but wasn't nearly as inflammatory as yours. Get over it and let him express his opinion without having a fit.
They obscured the dislike numbers because not only was "Brandon" and his like getting a tiny audience, but also consistently multiples of dislikes over likes. Nothing but politics.
I am kind of stunned that the guy that left that comment, could get through the mental gymnastics to somehow think that the bed(a piece of metal) does not expand when heated, but the nozzle(a piece of metal) does indeed expand. Both will expand. Granted different materials expands at different rates, but still both will expand. How significant the expansion is, that will be another story. This person was either very ignorant, or being a massive troll.
I did. Obviously. What is it about my video which makes you think I did not watch and that my presentation was "opinionated" and not based in factual engineering?
Take a look at the rat rig, they have a ball bearing solution. You are not inventing anything new .
What is your problem? Seriously! Why do you harass me? You police my videos looking for the smallest nuance of something original I may have created then you make a point to tell me that I'm not special. Someone else thought of something before I did. WHY? Why are you so intent on making me feel like I have no value as a human being? What motivates this type of behavior? Were you beaten as a child by someone who looked like me?
I gotta agree with DTP, that's a pretty douchey approach. He never claimed to be inventing anything new and simply said the solution is a bit convoluted, which it is. it just happens to work really well on cube printers.
Dude wth he didn't even say it was his idea...
Dude stop watching him and go touch grass or play in traffic, you child.
He never said it was his idea, and I doubt that it was first done by Ratrig. Ball bearings locating on steel rods seems to be very common. Just look at the e3d toolchanger, it used bearings and rods to locate the printhead onto the tool head. Ratrig just put it on a bed.
Think you missed the point of my video. I never said a bed doesn’t expand. In fact I showed the effects at the center. The point of the video was, if you use the paper method (as creality and other companies tell you to do in their manual) you’ll get the same results heated or unheated because the bed doesn’t expand any measurable amount above the adjustment knobs. And even though the center moves, you can’t adjust that out using the paper method. So if it’s a small print, print over the adjustment knobs.
On a second point, I do have a BSEE and 40+ years of design experience including thermal design of heat sinks and design for thermal environments. But explaining all that in a RUclips video is not only boring but wastes a lot of time (just like it did here).
Finally if your going to question my techniques where I did establish a hypothesis and then test and measure, at least do the same instead of making a bunch of drawings only to never actually show in empirical form the measurements of the large warpage your drawings imply.
Pwnage... Delivered.
Hi Chuck. Speaking as one of your 230,000+ subscribers - I appreciate the clear and useful information you provide on your channel. Cheers!
Chuck, I thought your video was clear and very easy to understand and all your claims were si only and logically explained.
CHECKMATE!
An honorable man would of pinned your comment.
on a personal note, I'd just like to say that THIS was quality content. You gave Chep the praise he deserves for running a quality channel while at the same time addressing his false claims. More quality content like this and less rambling about the evils of the world, please. This was quality content.
Yes! And he was really, really polite towards Chep, especially considering most of what Chep says is wrong, ignorant, and infuriatingly unresearched. Looking forward to more super nice videos like this from DPT!
Maybe I haven't looked at video in question, but CHEP didn't make any false claims about bed expansion.
@@bernardtarver Well, after seeing a 0.07 mm difference in the middle when he tested heating the bed to 60°C he concludes (at 6:12 in his bed heating video) that he doesn't think it matters if you heat it or not before leveling. That's an odd conclusion, in the face of his own tests.
He does suggest that you could print your parts directly above the adjustment knobs, and yes, if you do that then you don't need to heat it before leveling. However, in my experience bed adhesion is worse at the adjustment sites, so I prefer the center, and if your initial layer is 0.2 mm then it really makes quite a lot of difference if it's off by 0.07 mm!
@@marcus3d You've digressed; nonetheless chasing after 1/100s of a mm is trying to to hit the meniscus-diminishing returns.
@@bernardtarver Huh? 0.2 mm is 50% more than 0.13 mm. That's a huge difference! If you don't take that into account you'll have severe over extrusion and squishing and bed adhesion problems.
After watching CHEP's video, I find this whole discussion nonsense for 2 reasons:
1. He didn't claim beds don't warp, he just showed that beds won't change height at the mounting points, whilst it warps in the unsupported areas (e.g. the center spot).
2. His video is only referenced for manual bed levelling, for which is in fact true, that levelling your four outer points doesn't really depend on the temperature.
His verdict is "if you want to print something small, put it in the corner" (5:07-5:41 in his video) as it won't be effected by bed warping.
The story for ABL is of course different, as it allows the whole surface to be used. And that's essentially the whole flaw of manual BL, you can only use a small sweetspot at a time and never the whole bed itself with proper Z height. So imo his statement is right to use at least the ones that are not affected by temperature.
Besides that, his measurement methods itself seem to be valid and properly thought through. So I don't really get your point about being not scientific. It is simply the answer to the "hypothesis" if you should preheat your bed when manually levelling it and the answer is: no, doesn't matter, you can't prevent warping anyway (with standard equipment) so use the corners.
And yet I now have trolls on my channel telling me that when I talk about bed expansion/bed warping it's a myth. Misinformation comes from somewhere.
@@DesignPrototypeTest They're not trolls, and they're not trolling you. They're just misinformed. Try not to take the internet so personally and remember that social media (which this is) has fundamentally changed the way we interact with one another...for the worse.
@@DesignPrototypeTest Let the trolls be trolls, I'd recommend to focus more on the constructive side of your community and leave the haters alone.
I strongly believe in the four sides model of communication, so misinformation can come from either the sending or receiving side (or both). As I can see, CHEP never neglected the fact that beds warp, in fact he states that the center point moved up to 0.07mm (which I also think isn't too much, but he only measured it up to 60°C). He mentioned only, that the cornes remained at the same height, which are used for manual bed levelling, so there is no need for hot levelling the bed, you can use these areas safely fr your prints.
When someone makes a "bed warping is a myth" out of it, it is simply his lack of understanding and not CHEP's statement. Some people just want to hear what they wanna hear
Don't know why youtube didn't notify me of your new upload but finally found this. Good video!
The ball-bearing setup to handle bed expansion is not only a good solution, it's in practice on several printers right now. My Rat Rig V-Core 3 uses a 3-point kinematic bed system where the bed posts end in steel balls that ride on channels made of steel bars at 120 degree angles from one another and uses magnets to keep the bed stable. This is an optimum setup and completely rids you of bowing/bubbling. This same system has been deployed on everything from the Ender 3 to multi-thousand-dollar MakerBots/etc. The Rat Rig takes it a step further and adds independent steppers for each contact point, meaning you never have to tram your bed, ever.
I'd like to second this and say that the V Core 3 and various similar designs are the absolute best tech right now in the hobby 3dp sector. Everyone looking into hobby grade printers should consider one unless they don't have the time to crimp their own connectors or learn the basics of Klipper
@@TheRAINMan059 I agree they are the best designs available right now, but I wouldn't recommend them to a beginner in the hobby under most circumstances. The exception would be people like mechanical and electrical engineers. Everyone else should buy a mostly assembled, cheaper printer to start with
I'm curious, does it take into account the uneven heat provided by the heating element? That's a cause for dips and valleys in deltas, which otherwise wouldn't have this problem due to the way they mount their build plates.
I think if Chep had made it clear that his result that the effect was negligible was only for the Ender 3 v2, and not a general statement for all 3d printers, it would have been less easy to be misled.
This. Every word of this.
Chep replied here further down in his defense. This "gentlemen" didn't even bother to reply to him or pin his comment. That says a lot about this guy. To me anyway.
If you're interested there is a phenomenon known as negative thermal expansion (NTE) seen in some materials where they actually shrink with heating, and not because of a phase transition
What is true in theory only matters if it impact practice. Chucks measurements seem to indicate that the expansion, at the temperatures we print at, is fairly insignificant. No doubt it's ideal to have a bed probe measure "level" at the exact temperature you are going to print. But, for basic prints, his finding seem to indicate you probably don't need to. No need to overcomplicated your life.
I have several Ender 3 v2's and all with CR-Touch installed. I have noticed that GLASS beds (since my firmware does an auto-mesh build every print) will actually become MORE level after several prints in a row, the heat apparently settles them into a better level....which makes sense, hours of a heated bed will try to reach equilibrium. This was indicated by observing the mesh displayed after several hour prints in a row. I love CHEP's content too but always thought that particular video a bit suspect after my own experiences.
Love the channel! Question, can you put Double V wheels on 8mm smooth rod? On a prusa i3 for instance with 2 smooth rods
I fought with the plate concavity when my ender-3 pro was new. Then I upgraded to bl touch and Marlin 2. I learned that if Creality used Marlin to it's potential, I could have had a 9 or 25 point manual mesh using paper and interface control without a sensor. I'm still not sure why Creality still ships with early Marlin.
With the center of the bed being prone to the most change in dimension, the first step is to make the center of the bed static using a screw and spacer to prevent any movement; that becomes your control point, and makes the edges move easier as all force gets redirected to them.
At that point, low-friction methods like nylon/Teflon washers using the oval hole design you described would be much more successful, combined with captive large-diameter spacers housing the springs that would prevent X/Y movement of the spring and screw.
The only drawback is that the oval slots only work with uniform warping in a predictable direction, but there are so many factors involved in the heat distribution and external cooling that it would be very difficult to control that. One possible way to compensate for all directions is to use a large circle that the screw can move in all X/Y directions, and a larger washer/screw head so it still retains the bed at a specific height while allowing movement to a certain distance in any X/Y direction.
Depending on how much distance is already designed in a bed between the existing scre holes and the heater elements, this design may be retrofittable to existing beds. Since it only consists of removing bed material and adding common small hardware in the form of screws, washers, and spacers, it should be relatively inexpensive but require great skill to properly modify the existing bed.
I have a delta printer and it holds the bed down on the corners with top pressure clamping down rather than screws. The advantage is some gap between the edge of the bed and the clamp arms, so the bed can actually expand from heating. HOWEVER, since the heating elements in beds are not uniform and never heat the entire plate evenly you still have to map the bed for raised or lowered areas.
I'm still not seeing that the thermal expansion coefficient of aluminium at 60-100c is a significant factor in here.
however... the thermal expansion coefficient of adhesive(s) used to stick convenient build surfaces to the aluminium should not be overlooked.
thanks for this video. very well explained all of it. i just wonder now about glass beds? for example if they do or dont expand, if it happens differently and what is the best attachment options
This is the best explanation of the bed warping problem that I have found.
Glad I could help. Have a great day!
Thankyou DPT for you're explanation on the changing shape of the bed when heated.
When using probing to get a very good first layer, is the adjustment just made on the first layer or does it fade out after a few layers?
Or is it just to get very good even adhesion to bed then next layer has no adjustment added and blasts on top?
With an aluminum bed and heat change of 80C you’d expect to see maximum expansion of .2mm. That being said, depending on the internal stresses and manufacturing process it’s could be much more, or much less. It really depends. I always reset my Z offset with any temp change.
How about a magnetically floated bed, with four vertical pins in the corners to prevent x-y excursions of the bed?
So I have a CR Touch, I run a Cold calibration, I get the values, I run a 60C calibration and I get the same values so with at least 60C there isn't a change. I am going to be printing some higher bed requirement materials soon, so I will be cycling the bed upwards of 160C. I wonder at what temperature these changes are happening and what materials are being used? I have sitting ready to install a 6061-T6 material bed. Currently I have the oem bed on. So at PLA 60C temperatures with my bed I have zero changes. It would be neat to find out what material each bed is made out of. IMHO if you have a stationary bed it would be best to get one made of a material with a low linear coefficient of expansion.
According to my bltouch the deviation is almost 0.5 mm @110C on my tempered glass. It breaks the screws on my setup. I'm looking some other materials like fiberglass or carbonfiber.
Hi, could you recommend a good bed? The thicker the better? Should it be AC ?
1/4in or thicker cast aluminum plate and a keenovo heater. Just make sure to get a heater with cutouts for mounting holes.
And AC is great, but only if you are comfortable with wiring AC stuff.
Before the comments get blocked I have a question, sooo you have a warp bed or with bumps and the only way to get rid of those is shaving the imperfections with a CNC or a milling machine if you do it without heating the bed the bed must be flat wright, what would happen if you machín it with the bed heated to printing temperatures??? Will it shave more or less ???
The bed is constantly moving/growning/warping depending on how hot/cold it is.
So turning off bed warming after the initial layers would be a bad idea?
Yes.
Why printers even have that BS economy mode is so far beyond me. I have never once been able to turn off my bed heater and actually keep the print on the bed...
In my opinion the forces that are created by thermal expansion are not constrained by the flimsy mounting system. I havent checked aluminum but a glass bed bows more than a layer height everytime the heater came on during PID
This highly depends which glass you use and how tight you clamp it. If glass has the chance to expand without being forced into tention it is a material with very low bowing. I print on normal 150C floating glas with aboslutly now bowing when I use only weak clamps. This weak clamps are not able to hold back the bowing of FR4. The 400C rated glass from creality for ex. is even better...
When I saw CHEP say that it's a myth - part of me wanted to speak up, but CHEP's content is 3d printing light -- ender 3s, the expansion on those beds -- the thin tinfoil used by creality is so insignificant that why bother. His target audience is not enthusiasts. So for his purposes the bed is stable and is irrelevant. In all my work with larger machines bed's, MIC6 machined thick 9-12mm quality aluminum beds expand quiet significantly. The entire reason I let my big machines heat soak for 10-15 minutes after they reach temperature so the bed expansion is done. And anyone who thinks beds don't expand -- turn off pid loop on the bed, and watch bang-bang heating and look for z-banding. But again -- not CHEP's audience.
I'm not even sure why we even have to discuss this? Thermal expansion is a known fact, even outside of the 3d printing world. And no you don't need a science degree for that just basic school education.
Where did he say thermal expansion is a myth? Sounds to me like you didn't really listen to what he was proposing
@@kachler67 Just with the basic fact how he measured it. Saying doesn't exists for me so it doesn't exists with 3d printers. He wrote some comments as well that indicates it.
@@TheOfficialDarkICE How should he have measured it instead? To me the measuring setup seems appropriate and suitable. He even says in his conclusion, that the bed didn't move only on the corners, whilst the mid changes height. So I see no validation for your statement, that he claims it's a myth.
The only point I would criticise is that he only measured it up to 60C, would be interesting how it behaves beyond that
@@kachler67 For example thermal expansion does not only happen at the corners or in the middle of the bed. Different temperatures need to be tested. Even how the bed is heated needs to be considered. Every Printer is new case that needs to be examined. At the end Enders are know for warped beds even without thermal expansion. My Ender 3 is awful in that regards.
I admit to spending a lot of time on novel bed/heating designs for expansion management and heat control reasons
If we set over the aluminum bed a thin piece of glass do we not minimize the issue? It would be nice to see some tests. Sorry for bad English. I appreciate you standing for your point of view, keep up the good content!
depends on the glass. glass expands and contracts with heat just like pretty much everything else
@Jay Aristide yes, but is not constraind by bolts, just by some paper clips that I think allow expansion
@@razvanilea problem is glass will tend to bow/flex with the metal underneath. It wont bow/flex AS MUCH as the metal underneath, but it will still be a measurable amount. On smaller beds, it wont be enough to be an issue. On larger beds, though, it will be enough that you still need to correct the underlying issue
@@jfaristide yes, I think you are right
nice video. well explained.
am wondering about the bed bowing upwards. would say the supports dont confine rotation so hinge at each end basically. and it doesnt confine it upwards because the spring is much less stiff compared to the bed. the supports probably give some tension force along its axis which would be facing inwards when the bed expands. maybe they could put the bottom of the supports in a wider stance so when the bed expands the force is just downwards.
the ball bearings i think is a great idea. just use ball bearings on all supports except for 1. it would need something to stop the bed rotating about the single solid support though
most modern printers I have uses the Maxwell Kinematic system that allows for expansion while keeping the bed constrained. They sit balls on three points, that rest on magnetic guide pins.
This is why my z-offset is different depending on whether my bed temp is 50 degrees C or 80 degrees C.
you too, huh?
Just hanging out waiting for the next GMC video, when I found this channel because of my desire for a 3d printer. Now I have a 3d printer still in the box, so I'm learning as much as I can to be successful in the first week, rather than be upset for a month lol.
I am new to 3d printing I haven't even opened the box yet to put together my first printer but found this very helpful
Common... I thought you was gonna demonstrate a methos of resolving the issue, but then you concluded with bed probes. I am currently considering methods for the same reason...
No link to Allen key video
Thanks. I posted it just now. ruclips.net/video/399VbXxuOdw/видео.html
Blackwing 602?
Which is why automatic bed leveling processes should only be done on a fully heated bed.
The very best practice where Thermal expansion is used is on automotive repairs
To replace the bearings the new one got into the freezer for a couple of hours to get it freezing cold, the other part is getting hot with an blow torch so the assembly is as easy as "press" the bearing with your hands into place, otherwise it will need an hydraulic press to do the job
My hypothesis experiment is to use a laser to heat the surface of the bed only the area were the filament will be laid . I placed yesterday a description only to be taken down don't know why.
There's even more to it than this. It takes more time for the material to finish expanding than it does to heat up. So you can't just heat your bed to temp and measure it - you have to wait for it to finish expanding. IIRC this is very difficult to calculate. You might want to check out how RatRig deal with this problem - it's called a Maxwell Kinematic Mount. That probably won't work on a bed slinger, though (another reason to do away with the bed slinger design). Also the material the bed is made from matters a LOT - rolled and extruder aluminium expands for more unevenly than cast aluminium...and then there's thermal shock to consider (i.e. permanent warping as a result of heating too rapidly from one side). It's a minefield, and the bigger the bed, the bigger the problem.
Any reason why i cant comment on this video with my other account?
This is other account which i commented first. I wanted you to watch my video, if you have 10 minutes to spare, video about bed leveling which i called "true bed leveling". As an mechanical engineer, i hate "paper method".
Great video. I really liked how you made warping caused by thermal expansion accessible.
Kinematic coupling is what you are proposing. There is some really great literature on this out there, kinematic mounts are used in precision engineering and research quite commonly to deal with the sort of thermal expansion you describe.
A US company, I think mandala rose or mandala rose works or something is selling a magnetic kinematic bed mount that might be worth looking at for inspiration, you could probably build something similar for a few $ with ball end bolts, cheap magnets and a couple of printed parts. I think it uses "Kelvin coupling" where one point is constrained in all three axies, one is constrained in two(say XZ) and the third is just constrained in Z. Allows even predicable thermal expansion.
Have a look at the Annex Engineering Gasherbrum K3 3d printer, you can find the design on github, with edrawings so you can have a look at how they did it.
They used maxwell kinematic joints which essentially constrain 3 points in two axis each but all pointing toward the center. Again allows for even and predicaable thermal expansion, but with expansion happening from the middle out, as opposed to from one of the mounts out in the kelvin coupling system.
This coupling system for the bed was one of the things that enticed me to build one.
I'd love to see a great kinematic bed mount solution for the ender 3. I think it would have to be a kelvin type system so that you could keep two of the mounts constrained in the Y so as not to introduce too much play and additional resonance into the system.
If you want to refute CHEP, you have do an actual experiment (like CNC Kitchen). All this theory doesn't really cut it.
Mine goes the other way. Like how its supposed to go. No way some M4 spring loaded screws can take that force from sideways.
I dont think Cheps point was wether or not the bed expands. The point was wether this expansion impacted or not in the bed leveling. And for pla it didnt.
And yet his words have caused the trolls to come on my videos where I talk about bed expansion and tell me that I'm wrong. "Bed expansion is a myth." They think CHEP with the superior subscriber count knows more than I do and any video where I talk about something he dismissed is an incorrect video. They don't understand the nuances of the physical properties of metal and the engineering of the printer for themselves. It's just a popularity game to them. They think they are doing right to attack me so that I will stop spreading incorrect information.
@@DesignPrototypeTest So? CHEP is not responsible for a person leaving a comment on your video. People are allowed to think CHEP has superior knowledge or yourself has superior knowledge. But surely they will decide that based on the content of both your videos. Subscriber count or just stating the other person doesn't know what they are doing is unlikely to convince people.
IMHO... these should be floating beds restrained in a single corner that allows expansion and contraction. We treat these beds as fixed and imoveable platforms and then heat them while attempting to use that measurement as a basis for tramming! The height of insanity...
The reason he is saying it doesn't is because he is selling a circuit board with plastic switch you touch the nozzle against to level the bed. And I bet people are saying won't the hot nozzle and bed cause problems
Chep is the Doctor Oz of 3D Printing channels...no thanks
@@jfaristide I still enjoy the show
I'm not a Thermal Engineer but I do dress like one. I watched CHEP's video got part of the way through it and turned it off. Metal plates don't expand. Tell that to your BBQ plate as you watch the fat run off your steak as you cook it.
Nice video DPT. Well explained. Also remember that the greater the heat the great the expansion until melting point.
Are you sure you watched the video? Please tell me where Chep states "Metal plates don't expand"
ruclips.net/video/NlUO-5EtB44/видео.html
Chep replied here in the comment section this guy didn't even bother to reply to him or pin his comment so others can see what he has to say in h is defense. That tells me all I need to know about this guy.
@@edstar83 you don’t have to like someone for their conclusion to be correct. CHEP is a nicer guy but DPT is correct. Only one matters when you’re looking up facts. DPT is an engineer and it shows: he doesn’t care if the guy who built the bridge that fell is a nice guy. It is wrong. He isn’t mean to CHEP either.
I would love to see a video with the math behind this and do a real test with surface trace (could be a bltouch with a big mesh like 30x30 points) and test it at various temps like room temp, 40°, 50° all the way to 100 or 110 and compare the mesh, maybe if you print Pla and your room temp is like 25°C and you take your bed to like 50°C there is not much of a difference, but to 110°c the bed would get really warped. Pd: keep the good work!
Review the fulabed
I've tried another solution, attached glass bed to the heated alu bed with rubber bands, so I got 4 rubber bands running along the x and y axis. Those are tight latex ones so corners are firmly compressed, and it levels out those concave edge centers of the bed. It worked for me, before that my ender 3 had huge problems with first layers, but I dont have a bl touch to test it indepth.
that's pretty slick...way to think outside the box
@Jay Aristide, there was few options, I could put 4 clamps along each side to compress those edges. But I came with this solution, and it's neat, other option is to use sticky surface that doesnt require heated bed
I like how the guy didn't get you were talking about the video he thinks that he outwitted you by referencing hahahaha I dub him barnacles the 2nd.
::Looks at my CR-10 S5 and cries inside:: That damn thing is so SO warped when heating, not even the BLTouch can save grace...
you can do a 3-point kinematic conversion (the ball bearing solution he mentioned) on it. you'll lose a little z but thats it
Same here. Printing my first layer thicker to reduce the problem.
@@jfaristide This won't help much without mesh leveling. Crealitys printers are know for warped beds. Even without thermal expansion. My Ender 3 is so warped without an bltouch nothing would stick.
Chep did not claim bed expansion is a myth. He found out how negligible the effects of heating is on print bed levelling and gave us actual numbers. I wish you had done the some printing to prove your argument but right now it is purely theoritical.
Also, Rat Rig vcore 3 bed mounts already tries to address this problem but I don't have one and so I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes.
the effects might be negligible on an ender 3 with a teeny-tiny bed, but they are anything but negligible on anything larger. Stop Stanning Chep, he was *flat wrong*
I do have a Rat Rig V-Core 3 and it addresses the problem pretty well. you still need to probe at printing temp to get an accurate mesh, but when you compare it to a cold mesh, you can see the system works very well, as there is little to no evidence of bowing or bubbling from heating.
@@jfaristide I don't disagree. Let me clarify.. I'm skeptical about Chep's claim too and haven't experimented with levelling the bed cold. There is no actual printing done in this video and so this is even less credible than Chep's video where here had a result on specific printer.
@@nbalagopal it's not less credible, though. It's the *laws* of thermal expansion explained in colored pencil. It doesn't require any printing to fully debunk what Chep said, simply a rudimentary grasp on physics.
@@jfaristide Well in that case, the theoritical approach here could've taken this further to consider the extent of the effect for a specific bed size...which was also not done. No actual printing and no specific bed sizes considered is what makes this less credible to me.
8MM MIC 6 BAD OR GLASS THATS THE THING IM USING WORKS GRAT EVEN IN THE DUET IR SENSOR THE BAD IT FLAT
Well done video
BED EXPANSION IS A MYTH sound like earth is flat argument.
Slot the bed just like a concrete expansion cut.
OOooOOo Baby! a Blackwing pencil!!!
he is wrong the bottom of the print will become irregular i have cr 10 smart pro when i brint abs the middle is like a pond because of the temp so iam trying to use aluminum sheet under the flexible sheet to reduce the magnetic power
I thought that was a good demonstration of the theory. On the other hand, Chuck did the experiment and found the effect negligible _on the printers he tested_. The bottom line is, YMMV depending on many factors. I think Chuck's data is certainly worth considering if you're using a Chinese printer with a relatively thin, spring-mounted build plate made from rolled a aluminum sheet like he used. Try it yourself, do what works for you, but don't assume it will work the same universally.
I think the laws of thermodynamics are fairly universal.
@@jfaristide Yes. Nothing I wrote implies otherwise. It's a question of how much thermal expansion effects your bed tramming and mesh leveling.
Chep replied in the comment section this dude didn't even bother to replying to him or pin his comment. Now I remember why I've never subscribed to this channel.
CHEP by action disagrees with his own findings. He noticed his ender 3 did better with a glass bed, even though it was “barely affected by the heat” in the measurements. This is without measuring anything, he already came to the correct conclusion before the flawed test.
@@H0mework My Ender3 also does far better with a glass bed. Because it came with a warped build plate made from shitty rolled aluminum. The glass is simply flatter. The fact that Chuck gets better results on glass doesn't necessarily mean thermal expansion is the reason.
The Euclid Probe is the best mechanical probe availabe.
Don't look up! Do not look up! 😜 Well explained!
thanks! good content!
Well if you calibrate with multiple points at bed target temperature for the material used and there are no huge fluctuations anymore, it isn't really as relevant is it? - so maybe that's what someone means when he says its a myth?
except thats not what chep did, at all. he calibrated on top of the screws where there would be no difference, then once in the middle.
if your test is fundamentally flawed, then your results will be, too.
@@jfaristide Sry, i wasnt really aware of the chep guy and what he did or where to see it. Should have watched the video more careful :/
To be fair, if I recall correctly, chep didn't say that bed expansion is a myth. His point was that with his ender 3 setups, leveling the bed while cold or hot doesn't really affect adhesion while printing PLA. I remember watching it and disagreeing with him at the comments that on higher temps the expansion could seriously cause trouble.
But as he said, If you print something big, you are ok and if you bring something small, you can always print it over a levelling knob.
In any case, thanks for the theory.
That comment is just another case of 3d printing people that heard something, misinterpreted it and share it with the rest. Sad but it happens a lot
The fact that you didn't even bother to reply to Chep's comment here in the comment section or at least pin it so doesn't get buried and others can see what he has to say in his defense. Say's a lot about you as a person. And you just reminded me why I've never subscribed to your channel.
I'm not the bad guy. I'm not attacking CHEP. I'm just explaining things so that newbies don't have a misunderstanding. Everything about your comment is accusatory. CHEP has hundreds of thousands more subscribers than this channel. His comment has 37 up votes. It's at the top of the list without me putting a pin in it. I'm not able to pin comments from mobile, so half the time I'll read a comment that I would like to pin but I don't because I'm not on my PC. I didn't respond to his comment when he left it because there was really nothing for me to say. I sat in the video he gave his response. Leave it there. If anything I let him have the last word which I should be committed for. No? Of course, not. Everything I do makes me the bad guy in your eyes.
Really great video. Gave empirical truth behind a concept in an age of so much subjective truth. More of this please.
just make it out of gold plated beryllium.
Have you ever considered about building Dual Polar 3D Printer?
ruclips.net/video/fefVSmiO42c/видео.html
Hi again,.. I see you havent had time to respond to my previous comment, and i can see why by the comments lol... But hopefully youve had time to chill and pass on the makkah in here. My msg relates to the issue with heat expansion from heated beds on 3D printers... Well id like to say, im pretty much like, 99.9% sure ive cracked the issue and have the solution on my lap. ive just finished desihning it and its simple! Im currently redisigning my homemade printer and the concept has been in my mind for my own personal use... So id like to show you a picture of the design if your interested in seeing it...! Give me a shout if your curious enuf to know.
regards.
Scema3D
Thats my Up and commng channel
I feel like if this was a large scale problem with a large affect on print quality, then everyone would be talking about it commonly. Most people pre-heat the bed, get most (if not all) of the expansion out of the way, and auto bed level. There is not enough expansion left after auto leveling to make a difference in the real world (in my experience.)
Very good explanation. Thank you :-)
Goodness you make a video bashing someone's comments as the dumbest you've ever seen and you can't even stand a comment on your video which might be nit picking but wasn't nearly as inflammatory as yours. Get over it and let him express his opinion without having a fit.
They obscured the dislike numbers because not only was "Brandon" and his like getting a tiny audience, but also consistently multiples of dislikes over likes. Nothing but politics.
I am kind of stunned that the guy that left that comment, could get through the mental gymnastics to somehow think that the bed(a piece of metal) does not expand when heated, but the nozzle(a piece of metal) does indeed expand. Both will expand. Granted different materials expands at different rates, but still both will expand. How significant the expansion is, that will be another story. This person was either very ignorant, or being a massive troll.
You needed to actually watch the video you are rubbishing. I mean watch it, not get more opinionated and miss the point.
I did. Obviously. What is it about my video which makes you think I did not watch and that my presentation was "opinionated" and not based in factual engineering?