The properties of the lake have always suggested an oil spill to me. The dwarves delved too deeply and greedily, and the Balrog was not the only thing they released from the bowels of Arda, just as Gandalf hinted.
The mines of moria is already connected to the nameless thing's territory via the bridge of Khazad dum upto below the lake and that is created long before they awoke the Balrog.
This was very interesting, you make a lot of good points regarding The Watcher, Morgoth, The Balrog etc. I personally believe that the Watcher in The water may actually be one of Tolkiens Nameless Things. There surely must have been tunnels connecting the depths of Moria to the surface. I believe The Watcher made its way from the depths of Moria to the surface near the gate. The attack on The Fellowship may have been intentional or it may have been the Watcher protecting its territory. It is strange though that the Watcher attacked the ring bearer. This indicates outside forces were likely involved.
Not necessarily, it might just have sensed the ring desiring it for itself, kind of like Smeagol when he murdered his best friend for it without knowing what it really is.
I agree! with all the evidence we are presented with, its pretty safe to say it was attracted to the ring and the person who held it was in danger as always. Like ungoliant, even if you were to be able to order that thing around and tell it what to do, the second you moved wrong it would try to kill you lol and likely succeed unless you had a gang of balrogs to come jump it 😅
It's also possible that the Watcher was acting instinctively, reacting to the pull of the One Ring. I agree that the Balrog was the one most likely to put it there after creating the 'lake' for its dwelling place, but I think that the Balrog placed it there BECAUSE of the Watcher's nature, not anticipating its reaction to the presence of the One Ring and how Sauron was benefitted by that happenstance.
I was thinking the same thing. He left out the third source of evil in close proximity, the Ring itself. It is perhaps sentient enough in its own right to call out to the Watcher or it may be as you said, the watcher was merely sensitive to its evil. That seems much more likely then Sauron or Nazgûl communicating with it directly. PJs movies made it seem like everything evil in Middle Earth was orchestrated or in league with Sauron but I don’t think that is what JRRT envisioned. That is in part the point of Gandalf’s comments, there are old independent evils in the world left over from Morgoth and like the balrog, the watcher was likely one, though I do not think it shared Ungoliant’s origin from the void outside the world.
Read online that in the opening scene to the Two Towers when Gandalf and the Balrog fall down the pit and land in the lake at the bottom, Peter Jackson planned to have a handful of "watchers" fleeing the lake as the Balrog and Gandalf were about to hit the water, that would have been cool, just a nice little touch to show the audience that there is more than one of the creatures and it would also hint that theres all sorts of ancient creatures that dwell beneath the world
I can't lay my hand on the direct quotation, but I recall reading something Tolkien wrote in his letters, in which he says the cacophony and discord Melkor introduced into the Music of the Ainur led to the origin of evil things, even without the direct agency of Morgoth, such as he did with orcs, dragons and others. Gandalf indicated the Nameless Things existed quite apart from Sauron (and thus Morgoth?), and predated him. It's entirely possible Sauron/Morgoth simply made alliance with such creatures where they could and it benefitted them, but didn't create them. This would also explain Ungoliant, and the nature of Ungoliant's much weaker descendant, Shelob. The Watcher in the Water selected Frodo because evil calls to evil, or because Sauron had somehow entered into a pact with it.
Yah, during the snow-storm Aragorn or Gandalf says that bad stuff exists out there that isn’t purposely or deliberately aligned with Sauron… but because the bad stuff is bad & dangerous, it’s, well, y’know, bad and dangerous. (I think Aragorn says something like this to the company in response maybe to Boromir: but it’s related to Gimli being justifiably bothered like: “it’s as though the very mountain is against us !!” Gimli remains pissed at the mountain, shaking his fist at it later-
considering it targeted Frodo out of all the company its hard to think of it only having animal level intelligence, likely the ring made itself known knowing the watcher would yield the ring to Sauron
I like the idea, that since Tolkeins world is intended to be ours thousands of years before our time, and the creatures in it are things that appear in mythology in greek, roman, norse, medieval times, like trolls, dragons, goblins, elves etc, the watcher is a sort of kraken stand in.Some kind of nameless thing from Morgoths creation of darkness and evil, that managed to get out from the deep earth.After all, the kraken from mythology several times there’s tales of it going after treasures on ships, and the watcher seemed to single out Frodo for what he had.I like to think the nameless things are very much alive much later in middle earth, still gnawing and crawling under the earth.And when they occasionally find themselves above ground, be it on land or in lakes, that’s where a lot of monsters in mythology originate, the death work in Mongolia, Lamberton Worm, Kelpie etc.And they still live in the Seventh age, our age in Tolkeins view.Imagine some people dig too deep, and enable something to come out, facing monsters with no magic swords or knowledge of how to fight.Some of the things are quite intelligent too I imagine, perhaps they can shapeshift and so lure people away, like the kelpie legend.
It was more likely the power of the ring Frodo held and not Frodo himself that the watcher was attracted too. Also Melkor could not spawn anything he could only corrupt what already existed, it was the reasons he was in the void trying to find the Flame Imperishable not knowing it was within Eru All along. Thanks
Middle Earth Tales 11.4K subscribers Aragorn, son of Arathorn II: [warning Pippin Took, while knowing full well that something terrifyingly nasty lurks in the lake's mysterious depths] "Do not disturb the water!"
Why does the watcher need a master? Nothing implies it’s following any kind of orders. It’s far more likely the ring was calling to it or it’s just a wild creature
Interestingly whatever if the Watcher was serving on the Barlog´s behalf, or Sauron, or both or even neither of them, that thing is GONE later on as there is no record after both Sauron and the Balrog were defeated eventually so... there is no furtherly mentioning of the Dwarves or some other groups as Elves or Men having furtherly troubles with the Watcher on the Western Gate of Moria - unless that opening was never opened again to avoid meeting it. Still it´s wierd that Durin´s folk were eventually able to reinstale somewhat easily on Moria just seemly having some minor trouble getting ridden of the remaining Goblin-Orcs which still lurked there, but.. no mentioning of the Watcher furtherlymore then. (Neither the Nameless Things as well)
It reminds me of the giant squid monster from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Only in octopus form. Perhaps Tolkien was inspired by the larger octopus species of the ocean.
Well, one thing is for sure: the lake is not connected with the underground of Moria, otherwise it would drain into there. The Watcher seems to be a specifically aquatic being, since it has tentacles, so if it were "placed there", how? Sounds like all unlikely engineering feat. Or maybe it was an Ungoliant-like being that assumed the shape of a water creature for its own pleasure or designs.
Thanks again my friend. I've come pretty much to the same conclusions as yourself regarding this critter's origin and mindset. Also wanted to extend my appreciation for your command of the English language. Not many of (what I suspect) your age group, seem to have the desire or inclination to utilize the beautiful and descriptive nuance our language provides. :)
You know, the description of the watcher confuses me at times. It is written that he had his arms had a finger. Um, like a human-shaped finger? Or something more fish-like? By looking at the illustrations you used for the video, it seems like the artists also had very different images when it comes to the fingers of the creature. Also, I really wonder what this creature fed upon. Seems like it could go for decades without the chance of attacking passengers. And just what does it eat when it´s below the mountain...
My theory on why the Watcher went for Frodo is basically the pull of the One Ring, always seeking to return to its master. The Watcher may well be one of the Nameless Things that exist deep in the earth or water and be sightless, it would not answer to Sauron or the Balrog.
I assumed it was a nameless thing, surely the tunnels and caverns under the misty mountains are all interconnected, and since the presence of the ring affects beings, it was just naturally drawn to Frodo. Or perhaps because the ring was close to it, Sauron was able to “call” to the watcher and instigate the events of the book/movie
There is one problem with all the hypothesis stated in this video: They do not fit chronologically The door on the wall was made during simpler times. It was made by the dwarves with a spell in elvish. - The dwarves wouldn't have made a door that is easy to open next to a lake monster. - If the spell was in elvish, it means that the elves were already part of this world, so a monster that was created at the beginning of the world is impossible. The only conclusion is that this monster took up residence in this lake after the door was created. Probably during the 1st or 2nd era, which makes it less likely that Morgoth created it. We seen that this univers has giant elephants. Could it be possible that this univers has giant squids. Could this simply be an animal of this world and not a corrupt creation of Morgoth?
Ive watched tons of videos on this, lets see if i hear anything new. Edit: i mean its a semi-new take the melkor bit. But its definitley a nameless thing, and durins bane probably was if not scared of it, avoiding it. Nothing new, good video tho.🎉
I think what's important is not whether there's something new, but rather that nothing is missing. Because it's hard to bring up something new for a world that was created 50 years ago. Still, I try to approach events from as many different angles as possible, ensuring that nothing is left out. Thanks for your comment!
Absolutely, I mean, despite having watched hundreds of lotr lore videos coming into yours, I still stayed through the whole thing, the theories and takes were fresh, and you did a great job covering the basics of lore. If your dedicated to not missing lore bits, I'll subscribe. @@middleearthtales
I always thought that the watcher is just another wild creature in the middle earth but this video brings to mind many other possibilities. Thank you..
I think he's related to the Balrog maybe? Like they're both brotherly like entities, each a master/demon of their own element (Balrog = fire, Watcher = water)?
I could be wrong but I don't think Melkor/Morgoth was the one who created the Misty Mountains. It was a different mountain range he rose up to thwart Orome. The lands of Middle Earth went through drastic changes after Morgoth was banished through the Door of Night at the end of the First Age and a lot of the places we read about in the First Age were destroyed or are underwater now.
"But the mountains were the Hithaeglir, the Towers of Mist upon the borders of Eriador; yet they were taller and more terrible in those days, and were reared by Melkor to hinder the riding of Oromë. " This is how it is written in the Silmarillion
The fuck was Gandalf thinking dragging them through Moria ? That's when he should have summoned the eagles, to rescue them off the mountains. The Balrog was long since known as Durins Bane, so Gandalf knew it was down there. Huge logical problem in the book, but made for a good tale.
The properties of the lake have always suggested an oil spill to me. The dwarves delved too deeply and greedily, and the Balrog was not the only thing they released from the bowels of Arda, just as Gandalf hinted.
The mines of moria is already connected to the nameless thing's territory via the bridge of Khazad dum upto below the lake and that is created long before they awoke the Balrog.
For me it is one of the Nameless Things, the reason why was drawn to Frodo as all evil is drawn to the ring
Norbert the Nameless Thing
Yes. Evil draws evil. No planning necessary. I doubt the Balrog did more than drive it forth, perhaps having trolls dam the water.
This was very interesting, you make a lot of good points regarding The Watcher, Morgoth, The Balrog etc. I personally believe that the Watcher in The water may actually be one of Tolkiens Nameless Things. There surely must have been tunnels connecting the depths of Moria to the surface. I believe The Watcher made its way from the depths of Moria to the surface near the gate. The attack on The Fellowship may have been intentional or it may have been the Watcher protecting its territory. It is strange though that the Watcher attacked the ring bearer. This indicates outside forces were likely involved.
Not necessarily, it might just have sensed the ring desiring it for itself, kind of like Smeagol when he murdered his best friend for it without knowing what it really is.
@@Qbliviensexactly, the ring calls out to evil
I agree! with all the evidence we are presented with, its pretty safe to say it was attracted to the ring and the person who held it was in danger as always. Like ungoliant, even if you were to be able to order that thing around and tell it what to do, the second you moved wrong it would try to kill you lol and likely succeed unless you had a gang of balrogs to come jump it 😅
The Watcher In the Water has a very Lovecraftian feel to it. I wonder if Tolkien ever read him.
It's also possible that the Watcher was acting instinctively, reacting to the pull of the One Ring. I agree that the Balrog was the one most likely to put it there after creating the 'lake' for its dwelling place, but I think that the Balrog placed it there BECAUSE of the Watcher's nature, not anticipating its reaction to the presence of the One Ring and how Sauron was benefitted by that happenstance.
I was thinking the same thing. He left out the third source of evil in close proximity, the Ring itself. It is perhaps sentient enough in its own right to call out to the Watcher or it may be as you said, the watcher was merely sensitive to its evil. That seems much more likely then Sauron or Nazgûl communicating with it directly. PJs movies made it seem like everything evil in Middle Earth was orchestrated or in league with Sauron but I don’t think that is what JRRT envisioned. That is in part the point of Gandalf’s comments, there are old independent evils in the world left over from Morgoth and like the balrog, the watcher was likely one, though I do not think it shared Ungoliant’s origin from the void outside the world.
Read online that in the opening scene to the Two Towers when Gandalf and the Balrog fall down the pit and land in the lake at the bottom, Peter Jackson planned to have a handful of "watchers" fleeing the lake as the Balrog and Gandalf were about to hit the water, that would have been cool, just a nice little touch to show the audience that there is more than one of the creatures and it would also hint that theres all sorts of ancient creatures that dwell beneath the world
It's funny to think that Melkor might have accidentally corrupted these creatures without even knowing.
I can't lay my hand on the direct quotation, but I recall reading something Tolkien wrote in his letters, in which he says the cacophony and discord Melkor introduced into the Music of the Ainur led to the origin of evil things, even without the direct agency of Morgoth, such as he did with orcs, dragons and others. Gandalf indicated the Nameless Things existed quite apart from Sauron (and thus Morgoth?), and predated him. It's entirely possible Sauron/Morgoth simply made alliance with such creatures where they could and it benefitted them, but didn't create them. This would also explain Ungoliant, and the nature of Ungoliant's much weaker descendant, Shelob. The Watcher in the Water selected Frodo because evil calls to evil, or because Sauron had somehow entered into a pact with it.
Yah, during the snow-storm Aragorn or Gandalf says that bad stuff exists out there that isn’t purposely or deliberately aligned with Sauron… but because the bad stuff is bad & dangerous, it’s, well, y’know, bad and dangerous. (I think Aragorn says something like this to the company in response maybe to Boromir: but it’s related to Gimli being justifiably bothered like: “it’s as though the very mountain is against us !!” Gimli remains pissed at the mountain, shaking his fist at it later-
In retrospect they give the took a hard time later in the mines but nobody but frodo says anything to boromir for waking the watcher.
considering it targeted Frodo out of all the company its hard to think of it only having animal level intelligence, likely the ring made itself known knowing the watcher would yield the ring to Sauron
I like the idea, that since Tolkeins world is intended to be ours thousands of years before our time, and the creatures in it are things that appear in mythology in greek, roman, norse, medieval times, like trolls, dragons, goblins, elves etc, the watcher is a sort of kraken stand in.Some kind of nameless thing from Morgoths creation of darkness and evil, that managed to get out from the deep earth.After all, the kraken from mythology several times there’s tales of it going after treasures on ships, and the watcher seemed to single out Frodo for what he had.I like to think the nameless things are very much alive much later in middle earth, still gnawing and crawling under the earth.And when they occasionally find themselves above ground, be it on land or in lakes, that’s where a lot of monsters in mythology originate, the death work in Mongolia, Lamberton Worm, Kelpie etc.And they still live in the Seventh age, our age in Tolkeins view.Imagine some people dig too deep, and enable something to come out, facing monsters with no magic swords or knowledge of how to fight.Some of the things are quite intelligent too I imagine, perhaps they can shapeshift and so lure people away, like the kelpie legend.
It was merely a plot device to force the fellowship to flee into Moria.
I always thought that Saruman placed the watcher in the lake because he wanted to keep the ring from crossing the Misty Mountains.
When someone suggested to throw the Ring into the sea Gandalf said that they were things into the ocean. I wonder if this wouldn’t be one of them.
I love this guy's voice
It was more likely the power of the ring Frodo held and not Frodo himself that the watcher was attracted too. Also Melkor could not spawn anything he could only corrupt what already existed, it was the reasons he was in the void trying to find the Flame Imperishable not knowing it was within Eru All along. Thanks
Middle Earth Tales
11.4K subscribers Aragorn, son of Arathorn II: [warning Pippin Took, while knowing full well that something terrifyingly nasty lurks in the lake's mysterious depths] "Do not disturb the water!"
Why does the watcher need a master? Nothing implies it’s following any kind of orders. It’s far more likely the ring was calling to it or it’s just a wild creature
Interestingly whatever if the Watcher was serving on the Barlog´s behalf, or Sauron, or both or even neither of them, that thing is GONE later on as there is no record after both Sauron and the Balrog were defeated eventually so... there is no furtherly mentioning of the Dwarves or some other groups as Elves or Men having furtherly troubles with the Watcher on the Western Gate of Moria - unless that opening was never opened again to avoid meeting it. Still it´s wierd that Durin´s folk were eventually able to reinstale somewhat easily on Moria just seemly having some minor trouble getting ridden of the remaining Goblin-Orcs which still lurked there, but.. no mentioning of the Watcher furtherlymore then. (Neither the Nameless Things as well)
I guess it would've made for a short video to say, "It's something in the water that watches."
It’s a mini boss, is what it is
It reminds me of the giant squid monster from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Only in octopus form. Perhaps Tolkien was inspired by the larger octopus species of the ocean.
I didn’t know it was Boromir who threw the stone. Ohhhh they did Pippin dirty 😂😂😂😂
Well, one thing is for sure: the lake is not connected with the underground of Moria, otherwise it would drain into there.
The Watcher seems to be a specifically aquatic being, since it has tentacles, so if it were "placed there", how? Sounds like all unlikely engineering feat.
Or maybe it was an Ungoliant-like being that assumed the shape of a water creature for its own pleasure or designs.
I draggin too man. I think we just need a nap.
Good writing, buddy!
Thanks again my friend.
I've come pretty much to the same conclusions as yourself regarding this critter's origin and mindset.
Also wanted to extend my appreciation for your command of the English language.
Not many of (what I suspect) your age group, seem to have the desire or inclination to utilize the beautiful and descriptive nuance our language provides. :)
It’s the fantasy version of your creepy neighbour with the binoculars ….
But what about the Rock Giants fighting in the mountains? I want to know more about them.
Me too :o
You know, the description of the watcher confuses me at times. It is written that he had his arms had a finger. Um, like a human-shaped finger? Or something more fish-like? By looking at the illustrations you used for the video, it seems like the artists also had very different images when it comes to the fingers of the creature.
Also, I really wonder what this creature fed upon. Seems like it could go for decades without the chance of attacking passengers. And just what does it eat when it´s below the mountain...
Algae
My theory on why the Watcher went for Frodo is basically the pull of the One Ring, always seeking to return to its master. The Watcher may well be one of the Nameless Things that exist deep in the earth or water and be sightless, it would not answer to Sauron or the Balrog.
I assumed it was a nameless thing, surely the tunnels and caverns under the misty mountains are all interconnected, and since the presence of the ring affects beings, it was just naturally drawn to Frodo. Or perhaps because the ring was close to it, Sauron was able to “call” to the watcher and instigate the events of the book/movie
It’s called the watcher put there by Sauron to watch out for rings of power
It Must have been a weight watcher himself😂
There is one problem with all the hypothesis stated in this video: They do not fit chronologically
The door on the wall was made during simpler times. It was made by the dwarves with a spell in elvish.
- The dwarves wouldn't have made a door that is easy to open next to a lake monster.
- If the spell was in elvish, it means that the elves were already part of this world, so a monster that was created at the beginning of the world is impossible.
The only conclusion is that this monster took up residence in this lake after the door was created. Probably during the 1st or 2nd era, which makes it less likely that Morgoth created it.
We seen that this univers has giant elephants. Could it be possible that this univers has giant squids. Could this simply be an animal of this world and not a corrupt creation of Morgoth?
The lake didn't exist until more recent times.
@@maximus3160 euhhh... I've heard different analysis of Tolken's work and the facts vary a bit depending on the interpretation.
Ive watched tons of videos on this, lets see if i hear anything new.
Edit: i mean its a semi-new take the melkor bit. But its definitley a nameless thing, and durins bane probably was if not scared of it, avoiding it. Nothing new, good video tho.🎉
I think what's important is not whether there's something new, but rather that nothing is missing. Because it's hard to bring up something new for a world that was created 50 years ago. Still, I try to approach events from as many different angles as possible, ensuring that nothing is left out. Thanks for your comment!
Absolutely, I mean, despite having watched hundreds of lotr lore videos coming into yours, I still stayed through the whole thing, the theories and takes were fresh, and you did a great job covering the basics of lore. If your dedicated to not missing lore bits, I'll subscribe. @@middleearthtales
but the watcher might be a trick by Gandalf to push the fellowship inside. because they did not want to enter.
I always thought that the watcher is just another wild creature in the middle earth but this video brings to mind many other possibilities. Thank you..
Ya gotta be some special kind of evil to create a blind monster but call it “the Watcher.” 😅
Demonic version of a door closer. One that can clear the entrance of obstacles, as would be required.
I think he's related to the Balrog maybe? Like they're both brotherly like entities, each a master/demon of their own element (Balrog = fire, Watcher = water)?
Lesson: Dont dig too deep.
The Watcher is upset because his cousin on the Death Star was injured.
Is there an "Adventrues of Bill"? I really want to know what that pony was up to.
Yeah, he's going back to Bree. And then he kicks his former master in the Battle of Bywater. It's funny 😀😀
When the lake is drained, the Watcher will slink back into its subterranean cave from which it emerged.
I could be wrong but I don't think Melkor/Morgoth was the one who created the Misty Mountains. It was a different mountain range he rose up to thwart Orome. The lands of Middle Earth went through drastic changes after Morgoth was banished through the Door of Night at the end of the First Age and a lot of the places we read about in the First Age were destroyed or are underwater now.
"But the mountains were the Hithaeglir, the Towers of Mist upon the borders of Eriador; yet they were taller and more terrible in those days, and were reared by Melkor to hinder the riding of Oromë. " This is how it is written in the Silmarillion
Freshwater Kraken
The ponybill? Definitely an AI voice! 🤣
The water could not have always been foul like when Moria was first founded. So where did the creature come from if it wouldn't exist in clean water?
this is a robot
Melko raised the Misty Mountains?
The fuck was Gandalf thinking dragging them through Moria ? That's when he should have summoned the eagles, to rescue them off the mountains. The Balrog was long since known as Durins Bane, so Gandalf knew it was down there. Huge logical problem in the book, but made for a good tale.
The kraken
Of course, it was a spawn of Cthulhu.
"what IS the watcher in the water"
Don't think I didn't notice you changed the title 😏 gimme my credit. LOTR forever ♾️
Thank you, I missed that :)
I always likened it to a kraken
You call yourself dragon 😂😅😂
Yeah, do you mind? 😅
Are you a real human or AI?
The Watcher was too brave to be a Trump.