What do you think of the backlash with Shadiversity?🤔 Although I do not agree with him politically, I wonder, shouldn't we encourage dialogue and exchange, especially these days, when tensions are so high? You seem based, Man, what do you think about it? Do you even think about it? I've been having troubles with the show, but there's literally nowhere else I can watch an unbiased review, except on Knight's Watch? Do I agree with everything? No. But at least they do address the issues. As of now, no one else I usually watch has.. (Ok fair, maybe you, slightly, with the "your hot takes are bad", did too). What was I trying to say? No idea. I'm lost.
@@edwardguest1404 , about what I'm actually interested in, the technical aspects (writing, editing, pacing, filmography, etc), it's unbiased. I'm a liberal. As a french "liberal", I'm actually a socialist, most Americans would brand me a communist. But I'm not able to find any solid criticism of the show anywhere else, especially not on the dedicated WOT RUclips channels. So I searched, and watched. Are we now not even allowed to watch "other people"? I'm old enough to make up my own mind, thank you very much. I can watch "both sides" and still hold on to my own point of view, informed with the point of view of others, and richer for it.
Brandon going in to 2021: I'm publishing one novel in 2021 Brandon at the end of 2021: Okay, so I published two novels and three novellas, also be sure to check out that new graphic novel based on my story
People will be shouting from the roof tops when one of Sanderson's series gets adapted. If I ever see a trailer for a Stormlight series, I'll be super pumped.
A mean... i'll be mad. i have high expectations for a live action of Stormlight Archive and it's kinda far out of what could be in real life. mad and sad.
I teared up when I saw Brandon Sanderson's name as a co-producer in the titles, so I'm sure I'm gonna straight up sob when I see The Stormlight Archive as an adaptation. Buuut on the other side if things get messed up, then I'm gonna be mad.
As someone who’s read the first two books so far, I found this INCREDIBLY insightful without any spoilers. Man, I could listen to Brandon talk all day long.
@@haplozetetic9519 why are you saying it to me. I jyst agreed with @dasquiggle But they are schills. The show is horrific. And now i am hearing they are ruining lord of the rings. They gave it to baby writers with no good work. Just woke!
@JohnnyMedieval True. I like the change they did to Ishmaneal but dont like the finale otherwise. So many cool stuff from TGH ready for adaption in the next season which can make it a better season; Ingtar, Portal Stones, Seanchan, Testing, Lanfear... The TV series will be judged on the merits of the following seasons, especially the last season they make.
40:40 Brandon's recall of Jordan and Martin channeling political intrigue (fantasy) about the same time is actually a four year difference. The Shadow Rising was published in September 1992, A Game of Thrones in August 1996. By then Jordan was up to The Path of Daggers [#7], and I'll never forget grumbling about GRRM jumping onto the long fantasy series bandwagon as I stood in line to buy the $6.99 Bantam Spectra edition of A Game of Thrones.
I attempted a timestamp for the talk: 0:00 Working as a "consulting producer" 5:48 Appealing to book fans, attracting new fans 7:50 Faithful adaptations, staying true to the soul of the books 13:10 About characters (minor spoilers): POVs, Mat, Rand. 15:50 Writing for TV and Hollywood, Brandon's role in the show 21:35 Adapting characters, the influence of grim-dark 26:38 (spoiler for episode 1) Changes 36:14 Compressing material, the 4 eras of WoT according to Brandon 43:41 Cast talk 47:50 Conclusion: appreciating the show for what it is
It turns out I pronounce the other languages in Irish, and I say Nynaeve that way. There's a lot of gaelic type words - Eamon Valda, Moiraine is like Máire/Muireann, Seanchan.. I will just say I have a foreign accent and be at peace with it 😄
Yo Kev! I needed to hear this from Brandon. I was struggling with changes. I still don't like wasting 12.5% of the season on Stepin/Warder Bond Expo, But I don't want to be one of the negative noisemakers that get the show cancelled Prematurely. I'd Rather Dan Become Leandrin than Elaida! I can get behind "Another turning" more after hearing this.
There’s something cool about how comfortable they are discussing money regardless of the fact that they are both personally in very different places financially.
Although you can see Brandon struggle a bit in that scene internally when he tries to decide what and how much to say "on air". The awkwardness of being privileged...
Love BS's humility in relation to the WoT. He was a good choice to finish the series for RJ and is an amazing author in his own right> Appreciate his honesty in regards to the show
I reacted exactly as you said to the big Perrin change. I always identified with him as a big guy who learned to always be careful, but then they gave him very deep psychological trauma. I did not care for that change one bit.
Perrin, when there's a bubble of evil (in Tear?) giving life to his axe, that ends up in the door of his room, almost killing Faile: if it had, he would have killed himself. So, yeah... maybe they're not getting Perrin right.
@@NarfiRef It was not completely fabricated. Logain was gentled, just under totally different circumstances. But reds DID gentle men who could channel without the proper proceedings, so it could have happened this way. And for me Ep. 4 was just great, so I am fine with this adaptation.
My wife is heartbroken. This was her favorite series. I bought her every hardcover about one every paycheck at the time. I personally only read the first book back around 2001. I fell asleep watching the series with her last week and woke up to her saying she doesn't think she can endure another season..... I feel badly for the hard-core fans that have dreamed of this series being made for 20 years only to be so disappointed.
I've tried watching it with my girlfriend who haven't read the books. Even though she didn't have books for reference like i do, she refused to watch past second or third episode, saying she found series bad to the point of disgust. I was willing to watch more, because i mostly found the incompetence of the series funny, but i'll be honest, i was almost shaking with rage when i saw what they did with Abell Cauthon. Out of all the character assassinations in that blasted series it was probably the most insidious.
My wife was the same. WOT was her favourite book series of all time. She would reread all the books when ever a new one came out. When we found out that Brandon was writing the end of WOT, she listened to more of Brandon books and liked the Era 2 of mistborn and the Stormlight series. We watched I think 2 episodes of the 3 that dropped on the first day. And even today she still gets upset about the WOT series and she is even unhappy whenever I bring up Brandon and any of his books. She has not listened or read any of Brandon books since then, and I think she will never again. It killed her love for the WOT so much that when I told her about “Origins of The Wheel of Time: The Legends and Mythologies That Inspired Robert Jordan” she was not even interested in it. She was also a big fan of Writing Excuses, but has not listened to a single podcast since. Well that is my rant. I now just need to decide if I should give up Brandon as well, or just listen to his book in private as I know she would never ask me to give it up. 😥
Dan, your WoT show reactions are totally valid. The non reader reactions are my favorite! Please theorise away! Brandon, thank you for the wonderful thoughts on WoT and for your input on the show!
Brandon and Dan are more like Elayne and Nyneave in this podcast than anything I've seen. Dan, barging in with blanket statements destined to ruffle feathers, and Brandon, the consummate diplomat smoothing everything over as much as he can. GET THE BOWL OF THE WINDS ALREADY, YOU'VE BEEN IN TANCHICO FOR TWO BOOKS
Ebou Dar*, though I can understand the confusion as the Nynaeve detective agency spends multiple books idling in a city more than once in the series lmao
Thank you for your insight. The whole process of adapting books for television seems a lot more complicated than we could imagine. I appreciate these glimpses into this world.
He’s not in the writing room. He got to review scripts and give suggestions and he has an interest to continue getting that pay check till the series concludes. He’s either ok with them destroying the WoT or he’s ok with a fat Payday and is biting his tongue. There is no way he would have allowed for Lan to be the chosen weeper. LAN’s main thing in the books is ‘suck it up and don’t be a pussy, no matter your feelings… push those down as deep as they can go and wait till deaths before to pull them out and have a look.’ Seriously, there has never been a more stoic character than Lan. Rafe made him a Beta within 5 episodes.
Even though people were pissed about the changes to the Fellowship of the Ring, those changes were small relative to the actual story. WOT the show is changing whole elements of the story, important story and character arcs, etc.
But they did that to Lord of the Rings as well. The completely changed Aragorn's character, got rid of the actual ending (with the Battle of the Shire), cutting important characters like Glorfindel completely, creating the entire thing with the Eye of Sauron (which was just metaphorical in the books), made Gandalf have long fights with the Witch King (which fans argue breaks the entire lore by making Gandalf look weak), having Elves at Helm's Deep (which fans argue cheapens the entire thing) , and outright cutting many other characters, like Tom Bombadil. This is on top of basically deeply changing a lot of the tone by cutting basically all of the songs and poems, and having several scenes happen in a different order. This basically matches the Wheel of Time adaptation so far. Character details were shifted a little to get them moving a little faster, as well as playing with the age up. The tone is a bit darker and more in line with the later books ther than TEotW's tone. Min was moved to be later on. The Dragon can be a women (which fans argue breaks the entire lore). I could keep this joke going by making one to one comparisons, but its there. The adaptation is about as accurate to the books as the Lord of the Rings trilogy was.
@@MFMegaZeroX7 But the difference is this: the lord of the rings movie was still good. in fact it was a masterpiece, while The wheel of time tv series is trash. the plot doesn't make any sense, the audience never has any clue WHERE we are, it visually looks like LARPing and the characters are total caricatures. The acting is pretty good though I'll give it that.
@@tom4115 Not true at all. My non book reader family is enjoying the show, and most non-book readers are enjoying it as well. The haters are mainly a small group of very loud book fans, or people motivated be politics. If you look at the imdb reading breakdown, you can that women and young men like the show, and it is mainly boomer men that don't like the show.
@@MFMegaZeroX7 I predict the show won't last 4 seasons. It will be entirely unsatisfying. All the emotional "hits" like Lan crying like a loony, logain being a nutter, morraine being weak, the Aes Sedai acting like school girls are all like pawn pushes in chess: they can serve a very short term goal but lead to long term weaknesses. Those tricks have now been played and can't be played again: you can't put Lan back to being stoic, you can't make Logain insanely determined again, you can't make Morraine or any Aes Sedai wise again.
@@tom4115 What are you even talking about? Lan is stoic, and has been the entire time except for the grieving ceremony where he was selected to be the griever, where he had to then show emotion for the role. Also, Lan often feels emotion even if he doesn't show it. Moiraine has been strong the entire show, so I have no idea what you are taking about there. Logan was literally just gentle and doing his part. "Determined" was only a thing after being healed. And White Tower scheming has been book accurate as well. Most the Aes Sedai are pawns. Most scheming is done by Reds and Blues, and Browns do nearly none. I really have no idea what you are trying to elude to, since I don't keep up with whitecloak outrage.
@@Stuugie. the show is different from the book. I am excited to know who the dragon reborn is in the show as well. However a good practice is not to dig too deep and too greedily in comments lest you uncover a spoiler.
Thank you, I really needed this. As a long time/die hard fan of WoT I`ve been very much on the fence about the first episodes (loved episode 4) and a few things have really bugged me. Perrin killing his wife was one of those things for the exact same reasons you gave and it really pulled me out of the immersion. Your explanation of why certain choises where made also made it easer for me to accept (tho I will never agree that Perrin killing his wife was a good storytelling choise). There are other things I find hard to accept but I just need to change my mentality into accepting that this is just a different turning of the wheel. You pointing out many of the same issues as I have with this adaptation really helped. The youtube fandome reaction to the show has been really strange to me. Its either every single thing the showrunners have done is great/perfect/fantastic, or it is that everything is straight up trash. I fint it hard to express with words but it was such a releaf to hear your disagreements with the showrunner and you beeing willing to point that out. So far the show is not trash and its not the greatest thing ever. Its a promising fantasy show that hopefully has many more seasons to come.
Him being able to point out stuff didn’t have any affect on the choices Rafe Made. Brandon was in charge of nothing. He’s a script consultant. Amazon chose the newest Rian Johnson to helm this dumpster fire and we’re getting exactly what we’ve gotten from everything other than the LOTR trilogy and GoT (when they followed the books and the author was in the room leading the adaptation). A remake that ‘brings things into a modern mindset’. What do you want to bet that Mistborn is a better reflection of what Brandon write than WoT has been?
This whole "I judt need to change the way I think about it" is just way too much work to force yourself to like the crap they are making. And let me remind you that they are say THIS IS WHEEL OF TIME. Not a "different turning of the wheel". Not even claiming to be loosely based on the books. They're saying THIS is the books come to film. Brandon making that crap up is his way of dealing with the disappointment.
@@brednbudr2406 It's not a different turning, absolutely. Different turnings happened with different people (other than those few reborn). Brandon is a sellout and knows it. He knows RJ would have never allowed him on the series if he had this sellout attitude. RJ hated what was done to his work by others who changed it for their own goals.
"I believe strongly that an adaptation is a new piece of art, even one that is sticking close to it. Let the new piece of art be a new piece of art because it DOESN'T CHANGE THE BOOKS. You can always go read the books again, and people who love the show can go read the books and get something new from them." Wise words from Brandon.
We can question the choices they make in the show, but that doesn't mean we just shit on it because it's not 100% true to the book. Some of the changes are actually good, and that can be a little hard to accept for hardcore book fans.
@@NahlaAnwer have you watched it? Can you find a scene in it that was the same as the books other than the sets? If the character arcs are going to remain the same then shouldn’t their motivations be the same? Ie….. where is Matt’s real family? Matt is a thief? Who is Perrin’s wife? Why is the Two Rivers so diverse? It’s the most isolated community in the whole of the map and has been for a really really long time. Nynaeve has yet to tug her braid (that would make her an angry woman and she can’t be represented that way in today’s society). Who the fuck is this Warder that we’re spending an entire episode worth of time following so that the payoff is that Lan changes from the stoic Last King of Malkier into whoever the hell that was at the end of episode 5, crying for all so that the rest don’t have to? I tried watching this through the ‘it’s a different turning’ lens but the further they part ways with the original material the more this resembles a CW or Marvel show and far less about what the vast majority of the fans, and likely Robert Jordan himself, wanted from this. Also the CGI is not holding up. I’m not looking forward to this LOTR series Amazon is going to puke up next.
@@adidabax6809 Art is often political in message. It almost always has been. Many of our classics, like Dante's Inferno, were often commentary on then-current political issues.
That’s how I fixed some of the weird inconsistencies in the first few books for my head cannon. Books 1-3 are Thom’s version of the story, and the rest of the series is loial’s history. It also explains why the slog is so detailed and dry. An ogier was writing it 😂
11:27 Brandon: It is Rafe saying "Alright, I feel like I can not adapt the Wheel of Time to the screen in a way that is going to convey what's in the books." It is at this point that Rafe should have stepped aside and let someone who COULD adapt the story as it was in the book make the show instead. Like seriously what is wrong with these people in Hollywood?
I think it would take 28 years of episodes to do a 'true' adaptation. and thats kind of what they were hinting at. not that i'd avoid watching that. haha. edit: especially if Robert Jordan were alive to write the screen adaptation himself.
@@wackyswacky1374 I mean you say that but, it's really not the best adaptation. It's plagued with horrible pacing issues and intentional slowdowns. Edit: Adding on, its a completely different medium, (Animation vs Live Action) with different needs and different issues. I don't doubt completely faithful animated Wheel Of Time series could be produced. I do strongly doubt a live action series can be.
@@wackyswacky1374 I'm saying I cannot understand how that would begin to work. even if original author was adapting it it would most definitely not be the book not by a long shot. I don't see what the number of episodes or seasons would be to reach what most people would call a book to script faithful adaptation. honestly I liked lord of the rings and it isnt really a faithful adaptation, but I liked it first couple times I seen it. After then I read the books again and it felt like the movies (the longer 3 plus hour ones) feel like a series of action pieces with very little time in between. and frodo is supposed to be mid aged with an actual real servant and a couple of youngsters who look up to him, not 4 same aged friends, saruman not in league with sauran, glorfindel got gender swapped and/or removed depending on ur perspective, Imrahil is in most scenes of the return of the king but doesn't exist in the movie at all. we'd be lucky to get a lord of the rings adaptation and its not very close really.
What I hate the most in The Wheel of Time tv show is they're keep saying that Dragon can be man OR woman. WTF what danger can pose a woman Dragon if she wouldn't go mad using magic... The whole reason why Dragon Reborn is dangerous is the fact that Dragon is going to be man. Women are extremely important and powerful in the series anyway, there is no reason to change that...
@@deth3021 have you read the books? In this series men and women have separate magic sources and The Dark One tainted men source so if they use it they'll eventually go mad. Dragon was a man, and Dragon Reborn also is man, and this is the reason why it's so dangerous. This is the whole concept of this series, that he is the only one who can win against The Dark One, but he can/will destroy the world because of his madness. Also, sex isn't a social concept, but a biological truth.
@@CoKaNee you apparently have never heard of a simple concept called sarcasm. I was using that to point out why they couldnt have seperate magics in their world view. I mean if trans woman are women... then how could they not be able to use saidin? Easy fix in a fantasy world, in their view.
I just finished book 12 and didn’t realize that was the first one Sanderson worked on - he wrote the heck out of it! I really enjoyed book 11 (after dragging myself through books 8-10), but 12 is probably my favorite after books 1-3. I love the pacing, and the drastic reduction of spankings and use of the word ‘bosom.’ Pacing is something the show has a chance to improve. The book series should have been shorter, with a lot of the gristle trimmed out of books 9 and 10 in particular
It's fun, in his intro he underlined he wouldn't change his style, and write it as himself... Yet like you, I almost did not notice the change of writer (except for his name on the cover)!
I did notice the writing style change so much so that it was hard to get started for me. I like jordans explanation of every single thought, and every single piece of clothing and how it was made and who made it, and what they were eating and how it was prepared and what it smelled like and maybe 5 versions and intrpretations and views of one thing from some odd number of peoples point of view. I like the extreme minutiae :P don't ask me why. he also does a lot of unreliable narration, often will talk whole chapter about a scene with someone about that someone but refuses to let the 'camera' see that someone and will describe from an angle where description can be given but one that refuses to let u know who it is, sometimes till the end of that chapter. I like his particular type of weird. guess i'll have to go read his version of conan the barbarian cause he had intended on writing more things after wot but didn't get the chance at the end. I've pictured him as someone who could have wrote a 700 page version of someone walking through the woods one mile and you don't learn who they are and where they are going till book 2.
The series could have been 8 or less book if descriptions were brief and some odd tangents were taken out. Haven't watched the show yet, not impressed with the woke stuff or perrin killing his wife (article reviews)
@@randiway7476 If you watch it as its own self contained story with familiar elements. It has some good scenes and some good episodes. But u have to cherry pick which scenes or episodes u like from the ones u dont. Which story elements u like from the ones u dont. And u have to try shield ur mind from some weird anti-male hangup the story runner guy Rafe has that he just has difficulty resisting plastoring on in the writing in the dialog written out straight. men=stupid, women=awesome. I personally equalize all genders and even non traditonal gender views. I feel Rafe doesnt really, it seems heavy handed to me. its probaby out of many good things list v bad things list the one thats the most annoying to me personally because interferes in my being able to just enjoy it. its the metaforical vaccum cleaner that someone is pushing through the room while ur trying watching something. If he keeps this up i'll prob be yelling at my screene can u not rant on ur views of men in some side thing while I try and watch ur show please.
Staying more true to the source material doesnt automatically mean it cant be successful to a broad audiance. The changes to the serie has made it something totally different. This is more than just not liking a casting.
LotR movies actually followed the plot of the books. More then 50% of what we have seen so far in WoT is made up nonsense and the parts that do resemble the books have been massively reworked. At this point when we randomly find ourselves in a book situation, it feels like an Easter egg and not the point of the series. That is a major concern.
Imagine if Sam was already married and killed Rosie, Merry an Pip were lovers and Aragorn was an emotional wreak the whole time, and the story was told through gandalf's pov.....oh and they spend 20% of the movie on a made up character who wasnt in the books.
What about the fact that only a man can be the dragon? They emphasize many times in many episodes that any of the 5 kids from two rivers could be the dragon. Doesn't that diametrically and critically change the entire foundation of the story? They've already doomed the series.
Hey Brandon, now that the 6th episode is out, I would love to hear your perspective on what made it your favorite. For me it was difficult to watch, but you always give such good spins on the things I would never have thought about. Next time you speak on the WoT TV show could you take a moment to talk about those things that made the 6th episode the best for you?
Yeah, I found that comment really interesting. It was my and my wife's least favorite episode of all of them. Glad episode 7 redeemed things a bit for us.
The purity test can (and should) always be good writing with limited plot holes and quite honestly, that is not what is happening with the WoT adaptation. Logical character motivations and actions that hold true through out a scene/episode (or hopefully the whole season) should be a standard we can all agree on.
As a book reader, I'm really struggling with this show so far. Some of the early changes I could understand a little, like Perrin's wife, Mat's family, and skipping Baerlon for example. However, some of the changes in the past couple of episodes (3-5) are leaving me more confused as each episode comes out. The entire Stepin plotline and switching from Caemlyn to Tar Valon was probably the worst offender to me. All of this seems unnecessary and almost contradicts the story from the books in a way that I have no idea where things are going or how they're going to get there now. My GF and I literally took 2 hours just to watch episode 5 because we kept stopping every few minutes to vent about the changes. Listing to Brandon talk about his take on things after being able to read the scripts and see the broader vision behind the scenes does help a little bit. Though, as a weekly viewer who doesn't have the same benefits of seeing the bigger picture, I feel each week will continue to push me away even further. I truly wish that the showrunners could put out a barebones outline of their vision and how they are changing things, this way we book-readers can help get over that hurdle a little better. As it stands, the show is clashing way too much with the book as is and I'm left either bored or angry when watching the episodes because I know none of this has anything to do with the overall story and I have to wait to see where it's going to go. I'm really trying to give this a chance and I WANT to put my faith in Rafe and the others but I'm just not seeing how this will end well.
Completely agree. 5 was terrible and 6 had me and my wife nearly shouting at the TV, it was so bad. They've ruined the show for us and several friends as well. It isn't WoT, and it isn't some stupid imaginary version of WoT either.
@@brednbudr2406 It's a political statement which you better get used to. They are going to continue to hammer this and destroy what you love just bc they can.
@@brednbudr2406 I have to agree! Them spending 20 minutes on a certain characters sex life when you only have 8 hours to tell a whole book was a huge waste of time IMO! Could have spent that time learning about Loial and why he is even in the show because at this point I feel they could have left him out! Now that he is not needed to open The Ways, they could have tossed him completely out of the show. If you make it so only Aes Sedai can open them, then surely you could make it so they know how to navigate them as well.
I just need to say that using the oath rod the way they did in ep 6 is Total Crap! Lost me completely there. Wow, just not at all in tune with how the Aes Sedai think of or use the oaths. Terrible choice in a sea of questionable ones.
I find it very frustrating to hear so many defend the changes to they can hear bits of the same thing that once made them so happy, why did it make you happy. It made you happy because of the meaning under the story. These changes are not skipping or shrinking some stories to make it "fit" on screen, but keeping the main events as if that was all the story was. Come see the big flashy moments after we skip and twist the plot to get there. They might be able to tell a good story out of the part, but it will be a new story. It could be a different turning to keep things new, but that means new people will miss the story many want people to hear. Instead of more people finally having easier access to the greatest fantasy story, they will have this pathetic shadow to turn them away. The best I think we can hope for is to hope the story they do tell is good enough a few might be interested in reading it more than get turned away. This is LOR with magic blood thirsty hobits.
Nothing was spoiled that hasn't already aired. You don't want spoilers? Don't watch videos almost certainly containing some. They were clear about it from the start.
@@ChristmasLore I think what they meant is that they want to hear them discuss the topic without the speakers themselves worrying about spoiling it for listeners.
There was one episode like two weeks ago where I thought, wow, 90% of this entire episode didn’t happen in the book. Yes Thom fought a fade, and yes Egwene danced…and that was it 🤷♂️ I finished the book the night that the show pr misted so it was super fresh in my mind.
They put you in the front credits so they can gain extra validation for all the wackiness they were going to do to the "adaptation". I'm glad Brandon expains how the show runner isn't trying to really make it close to the books. the "different turning of the wheel" mind trick is something most of us fans who literally grew up with the books ( 12 at the first book, 33 at the last) will have to do .
It seems to me, that if you have to create your own head canon to like a sequel or an adaptation, that maybe you don't actually like it. And to me, that is actually perfectly fine. The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy and this TV show are bridges too far for me because I refuse to bend the characters into pretzels in my head. I say that not to pick a fight with people who like both the books and show, but simply to state that you don't have to talk yourself into liking a mediocre (in my opinion) adaptation, just because it is all you will get. Maybe it will be for the best if the show folds before they twist the Stone of Tear, Rhuidean, the Battle of Cairhein, Dumai Wells, the Cleansing, The Tower of Genji into something unrecognizable.
@@customsongmaker I quit watching and reading the novels and much better. Show is a travesty and disgrace to Robert Jordan novels. Shame on Rathe and Amazon for the craptastic woke show
When you say "How's that Ben" at the end there it really feels personal. Even though that you are not talking to me. Good, that is my answer, it was a good discussion. Keep it up!
I love that you gave a nod to what Rafe is doing with the emotional experience of Wheel of Time. I felt this with Loial. His dialog was so close to the books, and it being Loial the Wheel of Time bookworm himself made me so very happy. Did you have anything to do with that? It seems like a clever little nod that is just hidden enough to be a Sanderson level easter egg.
5 POVs if you include the prologue, and 7 if you include the prophecies. 7 POVs is the technically correct answer accepted in trivia contests, which always surprises people and makes them mad. 😁
@@MarisuSedai Mmmaybe, I don't count those as POV in the book since they all happen outside the storyline of the book, and they're more like quotes than POVs I guess you could include the prologue, but that's more of a video playback to me.
Loved this discussion, thank you Brandon and Dan. It might not change the mind of the most vocal of show haters (it's become part of their personality at this point) but it may just comfort some of those willing (but not currently able) to like the show. And if anyone cares, below are my thoughts (an essay really, lmao) about the show and how I approach it as a piece of art. TL;DR - I align with Brandon, and superficial, head canon, or minor plot differences are not important to me. What's important to me in a TV show - good acting, writing, music, beautiful scenery and sets, and an engaging plot. In my opinion, this show has succeeded in delivering these things to us, and I am thrilled about it and so are my non-book reader wife and friends. They are enjoying the hell out of the Dragon mystery, are absorbed in the world, and won't stop talking about it. That means a lot to me - growing the WoT fandom, especially in my everyday life, has brought me so much joy! To get into some detail, the actors - pretty much regardless of experience - use subtle facial cues and body positioning to emote their inner thoughts, while delivering well-crafted lines that create or smooth conflict as needed in the ebb and flow of the plot. Nynaeve talking with Moiraine at the sacred pool is one such example, as is Rand's discussion with Mat about the events at the Grinwell farm in episode 5. Just so well done and effective. The only time I feel the writing/delivery seems off is when they're obviously rushing through a scene - like during Moiraine's monologue in the series cold open and at then end of the same episode when they rushed out of EF. Lorne Balfe's score weaves so wonderfully into the landscape and character moments that half the time I forget it's there until I swell up with emotion and realize the music is magnifying the epic events on screen. Can't say I totally dig Thom's song (it's just fine, great symbolism/foreshadowing though), but for diegetic music the Manetheren song was awesome and a good unifying moment for the EF4. And the opening sequence, both musically and visually - holy shit, so good! The sets and scenery are gorgeous, no complaints at all on that front. And the plot beats, while about 40-50% different from what I remember from the books (I last read EoTW for the 7th time about 2 years ago, currently on PoD this reread) all drive home the nature of the world and our characters, and many 'different' scenes are only different in timing or location or dialogue - they still achieve the same things. Thinking hard about it now, but the only plot moments I don't think serve much of a purpose (although I am willing to be convinced there are others, or that this was important) all involve 'ol Fire Eyes - one jump scare was good, two was enough, but for crying out loud start telling us why this scary dude is important! The looming threat of the Dark One doesn't seem to be affecting my wife or friends and I think this is why. How they've used different plot beats to characterize Nynaeve and Lan though, for example, have been amazing - I feel like I can appreciate those characters way sooner than I did in the books, even though they both have arcs on the horizon that will change them some (making them softer/harder) in later seasons. Now, what's not really important to me in a TV show - character height, skin color, eye color, or anyone's (including my own) head canon. None of those things not matching with the source material should affect your enjoyment of the story being told unless they are KEY plot points (like Rand's hair color linking him with the Aiel). You used your imagination while reading the books, now use your imagination again while watching the show. Enjoy the story coming to life or complain about something that actually matters - with actual examples to support your point. Moiraine being tall doesn't affect her plot - her presence and charisma (whether she's short or tall) are what allow her to do what she does in book 1. And so on. Finally, what's never important to me - the opinions of anyone who complains about something using the word 'woke'. Unfortunately, the list of people in the WoT fandom I've had to disregard for that reason has grown more than I anticipated over the past year or so. Oh well, the Wheel weaves I guess. Time to end this essay.
'You stupid kid! Listen to Moiraine!' Love it! Really enjoyed this conversation. I was not blessed with a very good memory so though I've read the series twice so many details are fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure Mat is supposed to be roguish and funny, yes? I started reading them in the early 90s.
That’s interesting. I feel like a lot of the same touchstones are there. Winternight attack, call to adventure, Shadar Logoth, Perrin/Eg/Wolves/Whitecloaks, Mat/Rand/Darkfriends, Nyn/Moiraine/Lan, then instead of Caemlyn, it’s Tar Valon, so we can actually see Logain’s stuff that was going on largely in the background.
The names are there, but the characters, timing, outcomes of interactions, roles the characters play, and scene locations are all radically different to the point of being polar opposites. This is not an adaptation, this is a fan fiction piggy backing off of the fame of this existing IP so that a gay game show writer can self insert all his closeted teenage fantasies into someone else’s life work.
@@franciscoquintana2017 He is right. Rafe is not talented enough to create anything of value. Dude picked WoT to fix the problematic parts and push his political agenda.
I want to like the Wheel of Time adaptation. I realize changes must be made. But they have changed motivations and behaviors in ways I don't like. Thus I have decided to think of it as fan fiction. I like the scenery, settings, props, costumes. The casting is good. But the changes to the story are extremely disappointing. Thank you Brandon Sanderson for the excellent way you completed the series.
they did a horrible job on the Amazon show so bad that I quit watching it and read novels instead. They cut the entire prologue from the first novel which made the show difficult to watch if one had not already read the novels and replaced it with woke garbage. Show is not even close to the novels more like Amazon made a Woke of Time soap opera with man hating characters.
@@GuitarsAndSynths you didn't read the books before watching and switched to the books? Is that what you were saying? If so how do you like the books so far? Is the plot better? Sorry don't mean to come off rude. I just mix stuff up sometimes
Notice how the Game of Thrones, when it stuck to the script, was best reviewed and when they went off on their own, doing whatever they want. the series started to suck major ass? That's exactly how Wheel of Time is starting off. This first season is as bad as the last season of Game of Thrones. Also, the number of people upset about Glorfindel and Bombadil is completely dwarfed by the number of people upset by the changes in WoT so far. Jackson did a good enough job with everything else that people were willing to let go of Glorfindel and Bombadil. That isn't true of this series. Nothing has been done very well.
Exactly. The LOTR examples were laughable. I said in another comment, it would be comparable if Aragorn killed Arwen, gimli and Legolas were gay lovers, and the Two Towers book was completely skipped.
@@brednbudr2406 This is as bad (or worse) as the Hobbit, which was terrible. I've rewatched LOTR dozens of times. I saw the Hobbit once and will never watch it again. And for anyone that tries to say this is closer to LOTR than the Hobbit, look at their IMDB ratings. This has a lower IMDB rating than the Hobbit, which was significantly lower than LOTR. This show is hot garbage.
@@magnusarsland6887 idk, I thought the Hobbit was absolutely awful. The circus show in the goblin caves was absolutely ridiculous nonsense. The unnecessary love scene between the fictional elf Tauriel and Kili was also ridiculous nonsense. The Hobbit wasn't full of woke bs like this show but it was still terrible and Jackson got way too heavy handed, ruining the story.
I am one of those that WANT to love it, but just can't. My main problem is not with race or sexuality etc, but when they change fundamental physics of the WOT universe. Like the oath rod scene. That is just worldbreaking that they added that. Another is Loial. The actor is doing a great job with portraying Loial's personality, but there is nothing here to explain what an Ogier IS. He has no identity, agency or purpose in this adaptation. Also, he is WAY too small. As far as I remember, he is supposed to be larger than a trollock, and that is not what we are seeing here. Also, geography. There is no feeling of how vast this world really is. They teleport from one part of the map to another, much like you can do in later parts of a video game. Linking? Why are they shielding Logain one and one? Later in THE SAME episode, they show you that they can link. Why not use that? And that Valda torture scene, don't get me started. Pfft. What were they thinking? The logical inconsistencies in the world THEY are building is ruining the show. I can view this as a separate story adaptation, but when they break their own universe again and again, it turns out that the writing is just lacking, and the show suffers from it.
What about the fact that only a man can be the dragon? They emphasize many times in many episodes that any of the 5 kids from two rivers could be the dragon. Doesn't that diametrically and critically change the entire foundation of the story? They've already doomed this series.
Also, lets be honest. Is it ENTIRELY possible to translate this story to scene. Look at the first season of GoT. It had hardly any magic. Yet Dand and Dave simply followed the book EXACTLY, not just in script but also in tone as closely as possible and the result was unanimous positive reception and the biggest show in the world
It's a very different proposition though. George RR Martin had a history of writing for TV, and GoT is meticulously paced. The Eye of the World weaves and meanders. Lots of stuff just happens. Some is setting up future storylines. It's much closer to Lord of the Rings that way.
@@guywalker1196 The issues Im speaking of have NOTHING to do with adapting to TV. The changes that hurt this show are *ideologically* driven. WoT at its core has themes of genders being different, yet complimentary and the most amazing feats are acconplished when male+females work together as a whole. This aspect of WoT flies in the face of what the show wants to say/show. So, you get a myriad of changes, any of which wouldnt be a deal breaker on their own, yet grains of sand make a pile. Zoom out and you'll see a common theme: 1)Take away from male characters, give to female characters. 2)Take away strong/mentor/stoic male character attributes, insert inept, cowardice, effeminate/unmasculine, inconsequential qualities: Emmonds field Female mayor, show female winespring inn owner over husband, Womens circle is a big thing, yet Town Council is gone. Egwene kills whitecloaks, not perrin. Nynaeve tracks group, teaches Lan morraines "tell"(instead of tracking due to healing egwene). Nynaeve kills trollocs with weapons, Nynaeve kills men with weapons, dragon can be male or female, Logain is a weak, effeminate, idiot instead of the strong, stoic, intelligent character he is supposed to be. Same goes for all other male characters. They didnt change Thom as much, but they cut him out mostly so thats why. Lews Therin is a whining, power hungry fool bleating and begging the strong, smart female "Tamyrlin" seat (which shouldnt exist in AoL), who somehow knows that the Dark One could taint Saidin and tries to warn the stupid, impulsive, power hungry idiot. This is not true; No one knew the DO could taint Saidin and Lews Therin was the leader of the Aes Sedai anyway. But, because of ideology they had to make him a fool and this "Tamyrlin" the shrewd, intelligent one that foresaw the folly of the poor fool Dragons plan. Evem Rands finale, where he FINALY got some screentime and action was....all about the women. The thing that snapped him out of the tempting vision? The vision becoming reality would take Egwenes agency and choice away from her. If that isnt an allegory to the showrunners ideology that has permeated every facet of this adaptation then you are blind. Rand was supposed to face the foresaken in combat, after the women tried and were no match, then decimate the trolloc hordes. What happened instead? Rands fight was about the females agency being taken away, and then the women defeated the Trolloc horde. Yay! Any one of these things isnt an issue...but when you see the same theme oxxuring over, and over, and over, and over you start getting annoyed. Until you realize. They dont care about the source material, or any source material: It is merely a conveyor belt to make their ideological statements. Why use this instead of coming up with an original work? Because, no one would give a shit nor watch their drivel. They HAVE to license a widely known, popular IP so they can catfish people into watching on name recognition, only to bait and switch a steaming pile of horeshit. Whats worse is, aside from the heavy handed ideological propganda, the shownis ate up with bad writing, bad editing, bad CGI, bad dialogue, bad everything
@@strat5520 RJ went on record saying that he was inspired to write the gender politics in the Wheel of Time because he read a fantasy novel where a woman was told she *couldn't* be something because she was a woman. He said he wanted to create a world that had a form of gender equality. Some readers, reviewers, and commentators would argue that in some ways RJ's world is still bound by an outdated idea of gender. Updating this is absolutely in line with the soul of the books and RJ's original aspiration. I'm not going to get into your examples because I just don't agree. The series presents us with strong male characters in Rand Lan, and Logain. The TV series actually goes out of its way to assert the Warders' agency and partnership with Aes Sedai over subservience in a way the book never does. Would you rather the TV series followed the Eye of the World's awful confusing ending (which RJ went on record saying he regretted) and have Rand do everything by killing a Forsaken then teleporting to Tarwin's Gap? Or is it better to reflect the spirit of the series as a whole and make it an ensemble piece, where everyone has something to do in the finale? (Bear in mind Rand is basically absent from 4 books in the series...) Rand's scene with Ishamael is also clearly inspired by later scenes in the series (read Egwene's Accepted test and Rand's vision of the world without the Dark One in AMoL). So I'd argue they *do* care about the source material
@@guywalker1196 Riiight lol. RJ wrote awesome characters, all with agency, power etc. He didnt have to take away from male characters in a cheap effort to make you like the female characters like this show does (and yet somehow still fucks it up and makes you want to roll your eyes). He wrote great female characters that everyone loves. This show is a JOKE compared to the original work in terms of the male and female dynamic. An entire central theme of WoT is the balance and importance of each half of the "ancient symbol" in terms of gender...ahhhhh! But you see that in itself is """"problematic""""" because the modern Woke interpretation is there is NO strengths/weaknesses of each gender because there is NO gender. So you see, they cannot faithfully tell RJs story because they HATE the very premise of RJs WoT themes. They have to """"re-imagine"""" it, which in this case means this: Tear out its soul, tear out the soul of each character. Take power, agency, screentime, acts etc away from male characters, give those things to female characters. Then, aside from Woke inspired things/reasonings: Write horrible dialog. Use horrible editing. Spend time on useless things, dont spend time on important things, character dev, plot etc. Case in point: Random warder suicide and resulting funeral where Lan slaps his chest and screams lol. If they had time for this pointless waste of time, sure. But, theyre struggling using the time they do have wisely. This show is an epic FAILURE. It will be cancelled eventually, probably right after 2nd season, unless Amazon wises up and kicks the intersectional zealots out and makes big changes.
@@guywalker1196 And yes, his scene with Ishamael is inspired by EGWENE'S vision from the test. But, notice, that Rands epic finale showdown, you know, where he actually FINALLY gets to do something, is....all about the women. The very thing that snaps him out of it is the fact that that reality doesnt take what Egwene wants into account; Her agency, her desires. Which is fine! However...this finale was supposed to be, and could have been, a showdown between the Dragon Reborn and Forsaken. A fight. Not waxing philosphically about Egwene, while Nynaeve, Egwene, and other women get to have the epic battle moment hahaha. Again, this shows recipe is: 1) Take cool points, wit, cleverness, positive attributes, "power", agency, scenes, etc from male characters. 2) Give those things to female characters. Oh look. lets make Agelmar be stubborn and wrong, while his sister is correct! Lets make Nynaeve and super-duper tracker that can show Lan Mandragoran Moraines tell, if he wants her to (why do this? To make Nynaeve look cool). Its so transparent and its so annoying. Theyre so worried about making the Woke statments and portrayals right they are tied in a fucking knot! This show will FAIL unless they stop this shit. Its not doing the female characters any favors. Its insulting
Book split was 3 biomes as far as the relevant part of the episode goes: Mat and Rand were on a river boat. Perrin and Egwene were on the Caralain Grass (A giant mostly empty plain with sparse wooded areas), and Moiraine, Lan, and Nynaeve were on the heavily wooded south side of the river.
Yeah, you wonder if Mat and Rand were on the same side of the river as Perrin and Egwene how they didn’t see them in the grasslands below from their vantage point. I was disappointed not to see the White Bridge and Caemlyn, but sacrifices need to be made. I guess it was more important to spend and entire episode mourning the death of an Aes Sedai and for Lan to break character to emote over a friend’s senseless death, so we can understand the depth of the warder bond.
@@rjtwocircles I really wanted to see white bridge. A relic of the age of legends. It would have been cool to see. Instead we got a weird logain and moraine interaction lol
As someone who only read the first book ages ago and has started watching the series almost “fresh”, I appreciate the thoughtfulness of this discussion to avoid major spoilers!!
The grim dark still feels accurate to the book. When I reread the books as an adult I realized how terrifying the horror elements actually were. They don't read super dark, but fades are evil beyond belief.
Dude, that scene in the shack in The Great Hunt, where Rand had bugs crawling all over him was written so horrifying. Also on that note, EVERYTHING with the Renna and the collar in book two is some real adult fear. Oh man and the girl in the Stone of Tear. Then the Gholam... just everything about the Gholam. Jordan didn't stray into pure horror that often but when he did, it was fantastic.
Read the whole series some weeks before the show came out, and I think many people gloss over their reading way more than Jordan actually glossed over the violence, both physical and psychological. While maybe not "grimdark" (because regarding the outcome, there's still hope, optimistic view of life- mhm, the wheel... that can be discussed, Ishy had some good points.), the books are very dark (not gritty, but daaaark), and most certainly not PG.
@@TheLordofMetroids , Shadar Logoth, Bubbles of Evil, Hinderstap, Dumais' Well, Natrim Borrow, that other time Rand balefires his own men... It's really all over the books, just peppered in, and people's nostalgia plays into the feeling too. They remember what they want to...
Hearing about your head cannon and your role in the show make me want to give it another try. Also hearing you guys namecheck Paolini by his first name amuses me greatly for some reason
The Wheel Of Time series had everything they needed to be successful and it proved out with viewer numbers but they’re alienating all the book fans with these crazy unnecessary changes. Why invent characters that have nothing to do with the storyline? What they’ve changed makes no sense. I understand removing or blending things to make the story work but this series has become awful because of what was added. I haven’t even stopped watching because of the differences from the book, I came to terms with that, it’s because they’ve re written the story into something that’s unwatchable. I’m not sure what they’re ultimate goal is but I can’t watch it without getting angry and a lot of book fans feel the same. We’ll see how they do without avid book fans to hype the show, it will have to keep people interested with their own writing and production and it will fail. It’s too bad because I was super excited, best series ever written. RIP Robert Jordan, we miss you.
Edit: Anyone who makes disparaging remarks on the following thread about the sexuality or race of the characters of woT is getting their comment reported. Leave your comments to that effect elsewhere, don't bring be into it. Back to the original comment. I think people tend to hold LOTR as the gold standard of adaptation, rightly so imho, but forget that it did make big changes. Faramir, Aragorn, Merry, Pippin, Gollum, Frodo, all saw big changes to their characters. And the films were better for it! It's just such a part of the zeitgeist now that everyone forgets how mad they were that Faramir wasn't a perfect paragon, or that Aragorn had some inner conflict about kinghood. That's not even mentioning plot lines and scenes that didn't make it into the show or were changed completely (cough SCOURINGOFTHESHIRE cough cough). I loved the ending and return to the Shire in the books, but I don't at all miss it in the film. I can see 100% why that would have been a terrible film ending. It already had like 5 endings as it is! 😆
Yes. I read LOTR every year for about 15 years straight. Love them. Also love the movies! I had complaints at the time, my biggest was the use of the Army of the Undead. But loved the movies otherwise. And I see them as too things closely related. They are fraternal twins almost. That may be a bad metaphor, but they are closely related, and yet unique. I am was not, and still am not a fan of the Hobbit adaptations, and prefer the Rankin and Bass one. But that may be just me.
Yeah, the Hobbit was just...more than it needed to be? If you edit the whole thing down to one movie if just Hobbit things, I suspect there is a good film in there somewhere. The cast was lovely!
You're entitled to that opinion! Though my comment was about LOTR, I am assuming yours was about WoT and not LOTR. I guess you could.like LOTR was clunky, I would just be very surprised if you thought that 😂
26:00 I'd say pushing Egwene off a cliff wasn't just to shoot a cool scene.. when she later channels, I've seen non-readers react with "Ohhh, like the river, she's letting go." I'm loving that people who don't know are connecting dots.
@@godminnette2 It may not have been the reason for it, but they clearly realized they had an opportunity with the river to explained giving in to Saidar.
Big black circles taking half the page each is what they are connecting. Show is written for imbeciles. Not implying every viewer is alternatively gifted, but it was created in a way that even person with room temperature IQ level would not miss a thing.
@@Alpha___00 not sure if this was meant to be as insulting as it came across but I think I do agree with the general premise to some extent. Books are an active medium, your eyes are traveling the page and reading the words, your brain is picturing the scenes etc. TV and movies are a more passive medium. You are sitting back and letting the images in front of you tell the story. I think because of that filmmakers HAVE to be a bit more obvious about a lot of things or they are going to lose and confuse the audience. And they are putting way too much money up front to take the chance of losing the audience.
I haven’t watched it yet, but I got Amazon Prime Video so I can, when I’m ready. But I respect Brandon. I trust Brandon. I believe he helped save The Wheel of Time. So having him be an advocate for us. As a representative for us as book lovers, to at least be able to watch and have them show him what they are doing. That’s a transparency and openness that speaks of respect for what this property is to us. And no matter what they change, if they maintain that respect they’ll have mine in return. That’s what D&D lost with GoT. They stopped respecting the property, and fans. Got petty and bitter and tired. I trust Harriet too, but she represents RJs interest more than we can.
Well... if you know RJ agonized over people taking advantage of his work to get paid and to promote their own messaging... you'll feel for him as you watch the series. If you don't know that, maybe you like it and contribute to something he would have hated. Brandon tells you Harriet had nearly nothing to do with it, his words are she's old, and he makes it sound like she's older than she is (82 is not too old for many to travel and to stay in touch with projects), which alludes to she may have healthcare bills to pay.
@@edwardguest1404 They didnt take any of Brandon's advice. He says as much on this episode if you listen close to what he is saying and arent deceived by his nonchalant coolness
@@nathanmorgan3647 lol the guy literally said I am pleased by how much of my advice they actually took on and changed stuff for as well as posting on Reddit about how certain things in episode 1 and 2 were changed because of his advice. So I have no idea where you get that from.
@@edwardguest1404 /facepalm. They started out wanting to do incredibly stupid stuff, Brandon talked them back a little bit, but was unable to get them where he wanted them. Prime example Perrin the wife murderer. "Yeah, I guess having him kill someone early is an important scene SINCE YOU ARE CUTTING ALL THE CRITICAL DEVELOPMENT WITH THE WHITECLOAKS. But whatever you do, don't let him kill a wife. I can't see Perrin as able to function going forward if he kills his wife." Wife goes splat. It's a shite show shiting itself all over a great series.
Seeing a ton of negative comments right away, I read the books and really enjoy the show! Not everything is perfect of course, but I think a lot of us who are really liking it are the silent majority. Don’t let the loud negative nancies ruin your opinion or view of the show!
Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! I'm changing my 'head cannon' to thinking of this as a new cycle of the Wheel. As one of those fans that have read the entire series -- including New Spring -- multiple times, I was having a very hard time with the Wheel of Time on Amazon. I'm reframing it and recalibrating my expectations so I can relax and enjoy the story.
Absolutely brilliant discussion! I have really enjoyed the WoT show as someone who hasn't read the series, and it's done for me exactly what it's done for Mrs. Wells--I really want to read the books now. (Picking up Eye of the World as soon as Season 1 ends.) And that's, I think, the best thing an adaptation can do: share a story with people who otherwise might never have given it a chance. It doesn't have to be a 1 to 1. But it has to be good in its own right, and it has to be, at its core, the same thing. And that's the vibe I'm getting so far.
Well that's is the way it is sometimes...this time it's more a "purposely insulting a dead man's legacy" kinda thing. Its just another bad Woke show that tries to hammer home a very toxic massage.
@@TypausZuendorf Dude, you realize what you are doing right now is INENTIONALLY dissuading potential fans away from reading the books? Even if you don't like the show, why are you being toxic to people who are going to start reading the books?
The "Netflix adaptation" memes exist for a reason. Most of the time so many changes are made, from a different creative mind, that those who liked the original work for a specific set of reasons will most likely not find those same reasons in the new work. That's why they complain.
It’s a valid reason to complain. I’d be curious to see how many of the authors of things that have been adapted like what has become of their life’s work.
@@christopherneedham9584 hmm it was really quite direct sharp salty & personal remark to me e.g. they gave only 20 50k to me for writing but ppl like you who get 700 000 won't understand etc
@@s7edgekat610 It's light hearted. When you've been best friends with a person for 30 years, bottled up issues like that don't come out and get ignored when you know you have a camera in your face.
As a huge fan of the books, I am very impressed with the show. There's no way they could make it scene by scene. What they are doing with it is great 👍
@@johnmclennan4255 true they could, but it would be very long and probably not capture the attention of people who have not read the books... Only thing I'm not enjoying is Loial...
@@caseycastaway7850 This is interesting to me. I see people who bash the show with vitriol say they like Loial (not the appearance per say but the actor and the performance)
At this point, I'd rather not see anything adapted to film or TV if the original work will simply be butchered for the 'mass audience', never mind all the nonsense hollywood seems to inject on their shows. The story as told by the books is really good. Making all these massive changes to try and appeal to more audiences is basically saying, no the books are not good enough and we will make it 'better'.
This guy is like, "Well I've never read the series and don't give a shit about the lore, I don't get why the fans are so upset about it". You can see Brandon die a little inside when this guy tells him he's never read it.
I've been very mindful of trying to avoid the stereotypical gut reaction to any form of change. I'm all too aware of how easy it is to slip into that reactionary resentment. Nonetheless, I have to confess that I am struggling to enjoy the show. I appreciate it's massively difficult to try and adapt this type of very long-form fantasy series for TV, but I can't force myself away from feeling that the heart of the books isn't there. Perhaps it's more fair to say, what resonates with me as being the heart or soul of the books is lacking. I realise there's a great deal of irony in this, but I feel that too much is being done 'for show'. Most recently, Lan's theatrics at the end of episode 5 - this scene really lost me. It's such a complete diversion from the heart of the character, Lan is stoic to a fault, to the point of it being almost offensive at times. My discomfit with strange character deviations began with how Mat's parents were portrayed, I feel that it takes away from him as a character rather than build him up in any way. Fair enough, Emond's Field may not be as idyllic as The Shire, but I've countered that neither is it Tarren Ferry. I can't help but feel it's the 'Game of Trones-ification' of The Wheel of Time, and I believe this intent is further demonstrated by the immediate push for large scale fight scenes with a lot of special effects, emulating some of the later Game of Thrones seasons. The over the top edginess of Valda is another symptom of this to me. It's too 'in your face'. The viewer isn't allowed to simply come to the conclusion that this group, despite claiming to support the Light, is morally and ethically corrupt, it has to be reinforced in a somewhat inelegant fashion that this fellow eats a little bird that cuts his own mouth, so he must be a bit of a hardcore freak. I think the portrayal of him burning a woman alive after cutting her hands off was sufficient, but having said that, I don't believe the books (and their heart / soul) are well served by this overtly grizzly approach in general. Of course, women who can channel would likely be tortured to death - this could well include said hand removal and burning. The difference lives in what Robert Jordan displayed explicitly, and what is left to the imagination or open to interpretation. Perrin killing his wife falls into this category too, it felt to like he couldn't just be Perrin, he had to be made 'edgy' Perrin. I do not wish to detract from others' enjoyment of the show. This is one man's opinion, I'm not trying to sway or dissuade anyone, but I felt the need to express my feelings through some medium. Perhaps I should have written a letter and never sent it instead. I'm delighted for those who are enjoying it, I'll keep watching in the hopes that I can come around and enjoy it along with you, but there are yet a lot of hurdles to overcome.
These are pretty much my thoughts on the matter. Amazon wants "Their Game of Thrones" and picked a series that is just about as far away as you can be from Game of Thrones. The Wheel of Time books are almost prudish in comparison. Lan is the embodiment of "Duty is heavier than a mountain, death is lighter than a feather." Giving him a scene where he is overtly grieving, especially in such an over-the-top manner, does not tell me "They are trying to get the 'core' of the characters" People are free to love the show. I'm split on it, and I hope it gets better, but I really do think that they're going to end up writing themselves into a few corners with some of the changes that they've made.
the lan thing is a funerary tradition. they even say to him "take all of our grief" and he did, it was his duty to his fellow warders and stepin to grieve. i was on the fence too about lan showing that much emotion, but when you finally get why it was happening, it makes sense.
@@aviimax I think the situation is properly explained, and Lan's reaction in that regard make sense. The issue I have is with the actual decision to have this scene exist in the first place. Focusing on Lan's emotions (especially in such a blunt and, you could argue, forced way) seems antithetical to the character in the books. If anything, I would expect this very situation that the show created to be used as a spotlight on how his stoicism can be harmful to both himself and those he cares about, presenting him as emotionless even when nothing is farther from the truth. We shall see where this goes though!
Can we please, please, just accept some people are not 1oo% enthusiastic about the show, and equally respect their opinions, instead of always, always, systematically, everywhere, "correct" them, explain to them why and how they're wrong? (When it doesn't simply escalate to slander, either political or in-world/ Darkfriends?)🤔 This has become unbearable. It's a very unbecoming behavior, from a supposed very open and supportive fandom. They're outright behaving just like Whitecloaks on Twitter of Time, (totally unaware- Reddit even blanket banning other fans belongings to the r: Whitecloaks/ another group with, for some, behavioral issues). They "out" people for expressing their own mind, honestly. They behave just like those two families in Emond's Field.
Thank you. This conversation is very helpful. I'm a book fan and at the same time am really enjoying the film version. I also had to go through a reality shift of sorts, but that became easier when I put myself into the place of someone who had never heard of the books. Now I appreciate what Rafe's done even more and can love the film for what it is rather than what a reader, mind set in stone, would want.
I love the fact that the Aruthurian legend for Nynave is Ni-nu-way ... which was how I had always pronounced her name in WoT. It is wonderful to be validated with my weird way of saying those names after what ? 15? 20 years back! :-D
Somehow, Nye-Neeve pronunciation is too "modern" for me. As I heard of WOT series before reading it, that's how I read it now, but I find the Arthurian way, way more poetic and beautiful 🍃
I was disappointed that they felt they needed to give Perrin a wife. And also they bypassed Rand and Mat's stop in Caemlyn. With that said, I am enjoying the show. The actor who portrays Valda is amazing.
Nah . Perrin and his wife makes sense if you foreshadow his feelings in the books. The trip to Caemlyn isn’t really a big deal. You can mismatch those two events and have no real differences in plot.
Ive liked it so far and am ok with most of the changes. Main one that urks me though is the whole "we dont know if the dragon is a boy or a girl". reason being one of the whole reasons the dragon reborn is terifying is that the male half of the sorce is tainted.
Caemlyn was axed due to budget. Will show up later, some characters already cast for Season 2. The wife issue...Don't like it either. But is an easy (lazy) reason to explain some of his later actions and motivations. I wish, if he had to kill something while in a battle rage, it had been a pet or other family member.
Sanderson has not only castrated the end of the Saga, but his attempt at modernization has made the Three eunuchs. When he says the soul of the characters remains True, he declares himself Darkfriend. I weep for what was lost,...
If you didn't see the Three kicking the hardest ass in the last book that any fictional character has ever kicked, I have literally no idea which last three WoT books you read, but clearly not the ones that were published. Yes, the fact that Sanderson is not Jordan is detectable in the books. Yes, there are specific things he either didn't pick up on or wrongly changed. But overwhelmingly he got right both the souls of the main characters and the soul of the series, and I am deeply, deeply grateful that it was him who finished writing it and not some grade school hack like Judkins.
A bit late to the party so to speak, but I for one refuse to believe someone who is a genuine fan of the books would make so many absolutely unneccesary and in many cases downright detrimental and world-building contradictionary changes to an adaptation. Sure, there were things I enjoyed about the show, but by the time I had finished watching the sixth episode it was obvious to me that this was not going to be the Wheel of Time I was reading when I grew up. That knowledge depressed me immensely.
I wanted it to start by feeling like a light hearted adventure in a nightmarish world. But it started going off when mat stole that first bracelet. He did pranks and got into trouble, he wasn't a thief though
It feels good, as a hard core WoT fan, to hear Sanderson have many of the same opinions on the show as I do. I almost felt like a traitor to the books to like the changes in the show. At the end of the day, it is its own piece of art and I’m digging it. Also, Perrin’s whole axe arc in the first episode, yeah that’s the one thing I’m ticked about. Could have happened to another character, but I’m gonna give it a chance
I've been waiting for this for a long time.. I may not be happy that I get a direct book to screen adaptation. However I realize it would be boring hearing the same story for the umptilionth time. I am loving the show so far, I do have my problems with certain things being unclear through visual examination, while getting other forced explanations at unneeded times. It is what it is though, I do have a bias and a good base of knowledge already which just gives me an outside perspective and a chance to explore the changes I would make and where. This I really enjoy, because it allows for multiple turnings of the wheel to happen at the same time in my mind and on the screen. I'll watch till the end no matter the way it makes me feel lol I'm very glad I found this video and the perspective it gave me.
Thank you for publishing this episode before your spoiler stream next week. It will save so much time on the fans asking your opinion on the show during those streams.
Brandon, I appreciate you explaining how you had to view things to appreciate them as they are and not what I wanted. I had been having hard time suspending my frustration with the differences and not just enjoying a good adaptation. Interestingly enough that didn't happen with TLOTR
Or with Dune!!! Dune is filled with internal dialogue and yet this most recent film, even though it made changes, stuck true to the source material. It can be done. The way this show is headed I don’t see it making it to the end of the series. Viewership will die off in season 2 and I bet it gets cancelled after season 4.
Sorry Brandon, I’m 8min into the podcast and you say “I’m not worried about that” referring to book fans giving up on the tv adaptation or not supporting the project. Frankly, you should be worried and I’m absolutely flabbergasted as a fan to see the my one best chance at a live adaptation tossed in the trolloc cook pot… way to many concessions and unnecessary changes. I get appealing to a larger audience and diversifying aspects of the canon and yet trying to stay true to the story.. but did you really stay true? Burn me, I’m a dedicated fan and am genuinely appalled and utterly gutted over the disaster that is the WOT show. I pray to the Light that the next season retains more of the essence of the books. May you always find shade and water.
Out of all the major changes the series is making, the fact that Sanderson's biggest beef is with creating then killing Perrin's wife is encouraging to me. After the first couple episodes I was really afraid that they would try to homogenize the genders with regard to the one power, eliminating saidin vs. saidar, and allowing the Dragon Reborn to be a different character. But that would change SO MUCH in the plot that I don't see how it could be even a spiritual adaptation of the book. It would be a completely new story. Perrin's wife is merely a change in motivation, and if that's the biggest problem, then I'm excited for where this can go.
I was worried they would supplant Rand as the Dragon Reborn originally, especially after who knows it might be a woman thing. Thinking back it was kinda silly because they make it know Rand is Aiel really quick and the Herron Marked blade so that seems to suggest it will stay Rand. I dont mind the show, I don't like some of the changes but I still want it to succeed.
@@wind_runner6836 I was worried because when Nynaeve killed the trolloc in the pool, the blood formed the Dragon's Fang, and then in the episode called "The Dragon Reborn," they had Moiraine say that the power of the Dragon was like the raging sun in comparison to Logain's candle. Then, when Nynaeve channeled, healing everyone, Logain whispered "the power of the sun!" I was like, OK. I know Nynaeve is powerful and all, but don't change the Dragon. That's too much. Reading Rafe's AMAs on twitter and Reddit and listening to Sanderson talk about it (especially his contract not having a no-disparagement clause) really helped me feel better about the series.
I'd personally rather have Robert Jordan's story brought to the screen instead of Rafe Judkin's story brought to the screen. Robert Jordan's story is one of the most famous fantasy series in the world for a reason. I don't like that they're cutting stuff from the real story, and adding fluff that never happens in the real story (like the sad warder arc). That said, I'm enjoying the show more than I thought I would, and the actors are doing a good job embracing the soul of the characters.
I've always felt that's just a cop out. Why should I care about a story because it has the surface similarities to something I enjoy, should that be a reason enough? No, I enjoyed WoT and if you're fundamentally changing big things and doing your own story then I treat it as a new story. After the first half of the first episode I just found the show boring and forgettable. Same with MCU or the Watch series, the more they just use names for the sake of using names that are familiar the less relevant the content is because at some point you're obviously just trying to ride on a previous success instead of trying to make a good thing on its own.
I am just so fascinated with seeing iconic characters and places that I only pictured in my mind. The threads of The One Power, The White Tower and Loial...so incredible to finally see.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Regardless of all our opinions about the show, this was a great convo -- thanks guys
Paul and his m.....
@@sandeepaweerasinghe120 oh no dont do him like that again😂😂😂
What do you think of the backlash with Shadiversity?🤔
Although I do not agree with him politically, I wonder, shouldn't we encourage dialogue and exchange, especially these days, when tensions are so high?
You seem based, Man, what do you think about it? Do you even think about it?
I've been having troubles with the show, but there's literally nowhere else I can watch an unbiased review, except on Knight's Watch?
Do I agree with everything? No. But at least they do address the issues.
As of now, no one else I usually watch has..
(Ok fair, maybe you, slightly, with the "your hot takes are bad", did too).
What was I trying to say? No idea. I'm lost.
@@ChristmasLore unbiased opinion on the knights watch? You feel free to watch and enjoy his reviews but don’t call them unbiased😂
@@edwardguest1404 , about what I'm actually interested in, the technical aspects (writing, editing, pacing, filmography, etc), it's unbiased.
I'm a liberal. As a french "liberal", I'm actually a socialist, most Americans would brand me a communist.
But I'm not able to find any solid criticism of the show anywhere else, especially not on the dedicated WOT RUclips channels.
So I searched, and watched.
Are we now not even allowed to watch "other people"?
I'm old enough to make up my own mind, thank you very much.
I can watch "both sides" and still hold on to my own point of view, informed with the point of view of others, and richer for it.
I would watch 100 episodes of Brandon explaining the Wheel of Time to Dan
Seconded, let's have a series of this.
Same
He needs to read it again first though. He had forgotten than Nynaeve have POVs in EotW.
@@Merecir And iirc Moiraine has a brief POV at the very end
Given that this episode is getting more than twice as many views as any other we've ever done, that's not a bad idea :)
Brandon LITERALLY never stops working on his books.
He published two novels while you were writing that comment.
@@MarisuSedai lmao
Brandon going in to 2021: I'm publishing one novel in 2021
Brandon at the end of 2021: Okay, so I published two novels and three novellas, also be sure to check out that new graphic novel based on my story
I swear he writes them faster than I can read them.
It was quite a shock to learn how long I'd have to wait for the Lost Metal.
Ever heard of sleepwriting? He does that. (wink)
People will be shouting from the roof tops when one of Sanderson's series gets adapted. If I ever see a trailer for a Stormlight series, I'll be super pumped.
Agreed but how many will complain when Hoid doesn't match their headcannon
Sanderson has probably been prepared for TV adaptations and has intentionally written things in a way that will work well for TV and not just books.
@@Lezzyboy87 me.
A mean... i'll be mad. i have high expectations for a live action of Stormlight Archive and it's kinda far out of what could be in real life. mad and sad.
I teared up when I saw Brandon Sanderson's name as a co-producer in the titles, so I'm sure I'm gonna straight up sob when I see The Stormlight Archive as an adaptation. Buuut on the other side if things get messed up, then I'm gonna be mad.
As someone who’s read the first two books so far, I found this INCREDIBLY insightful without any spoilers. Man, I could listen to Brandon talk all day long.
Ditto but have read all books multiple times. Would recommend to book readers and non-readers alike.
I used to be able to. Now I think he’s an Amazon shill.
@@squiggs928 agree 100%
@@Raistlinsdragonclaw One can change their mind without becoming a shill.
@@haplozetetic9519 why are you saying it to me. I jyst agreed with @dasquiggle
But they are schills. The show is horrific.
And now i am hearing they are ruining lord of the rings. They gave it to baby writers with no good work. Just woke!
I love when he finishes a stack of signings, and they just bring him another massive one 🤣
Oh, I wondered what he was doing. It looked like he was scratching something out. I am visually impaired just FYI lol
@@Gamedaughter1 FYI they are title pages from Warbreaker that he is signing
yeah but he's really ruining the future market value of his autographs!
(and i think that's awesome)
I just love the fact that Brandon was geeking when explaining the "4 eras" of WOT.
Yeah, really smart way to describe it. I really like the WoT but the changes are necessary to fix the flaws.
39:40
@@antonjohansson3819 loool
@JohnnyMedieval True. I like the change they did to Ishmaneal but dont like the finale otherwise.
So many cool stuff from TGH ready for adaption in the next season which can make it a better season;
Ingtar, Portal Stones, Seanchan, Testing, Lanfear...
The TV series will be judged on the merits of the following seasons, especially the last season they make.
40:40 Brandon's recall of Jordan and Martin channeling political intrigue (fantasy) about the same time is actually
a four year difference. The Shadow Rising was published in September 1992, A Game of Thrones in August 1996.
By then Jordan was up to The Path of Daggers [#7], and I'll never forget grumbling about GRRM jumping onto the
long fantasy series bandwagon as I stood in line to buy the $6.99 Bantam Spectra edition of A Game of Thrones.
I attempted a timestamp for the talk:
0:00 Working as a "consulting producer"
5:48 Appealing to book fans, attracting new fans
7:50 Faithful adaptations, staying true to the soul of the books
13:10 About characters (minor spoilers): POVs, Mat, Rand.
15:50 Writing for TV and Hollywood, Brandon's role in the show
21:35 Adapting characters, the influence of grim-dark
26:38 (spoiler for episode 1) Changes
36:14 Compressing material, the 4 eras of WoT according to Brandon
43:41 Cast talk
47:50 Conclusion: appreciating the show for what it is
Bless you
May you live a long life.
You gain much Ji
🍻
May you always find shade.
21:43 - by his pronunciation of Nynaeve, Dan Wells is Liandrin confirmed
This made me laugh I thought the same thing. Very clever if it was deliberate …
😆
Bahahahaha
It turns out I pronounce the other languages in Irish, and I say Nynaeve that way. There's a lot of gaelic type words - Eamon Valda, Moiraine is like Máire/Muireann, Seanchan.. I will just say I have a foreign accent and be at peace with it 😄
Yo Kev! I needed to hear this from Brandon. I was struggling with changes. I still don't like wasting 12.5% of the season on Stepin/Warder Bond Expo,
But I don't want to be one of the negative noisemakers that get the show cancelled Prematurely. I'd Rather Dan Become Leandrin than Elaida!
I can get behind "Another turning" more after hearing this.
I love that Brandon hates Cadsuane. That's hilarious.
It's his other mother (from Coraline) which means spider (Moghedien?)
Huh, as far as the Aes Sedai went was middle of the pack in likability for me.
Well, he did get her very wrong too.
@@csarmii I don't know, it felt like he injected pace and urgency back into the books and ended the slog. Hardcore fans might disagree
I think of Cadsuane as Harriet, so it is indeed somewhat hilarious... (And probably right, too ..)
So glad to live in an age as Brandon Sanderson. Apart from all that was talked about, he is so precise with everything he does and honest to the boot.
There’s something cool about how comfortable they are discussing money regardless of the fact that they are both personally in very different places financially.
Although you can see Brandon struggle a bit in that scene internally when he tries to decide what and how much to say "on air". The awkwardness of being privileged...
I'm lost, is one of them broke or something
@@jimzimmer2048 Brandon is rich and the other guy, while not being broke, is nowhere near Brandon.
@@moash2518 got you
Love BS's humility in relation to the WoT.
He was a good choice to finish the series for RJ and is an amazing author in his own right>
Appreciate his honesty in regards to the show
It's a little unfortunate that his initials are BS. He's one of the best authors alive today.
Brandon is a word smith. He tells his impression of the tv show better than an Aes Sedai. He doesn’t like it.
I reacted exactly as you said to the big Perrin change. I always identified with him as a big guy who learned to always be careful, but then they gave him very deep psychological trauma. I did not care for that change one bit.
Perrin, when there's a bubble of evil (in Tear?) giving life to his axe, that ends up in the door of his room, almost killing Faile: if it had, he would have killed himself.
So, yeah... maybe they're not getting Perrin right.
TEotW did feature three chapters of Nynaeve’s perspective as she traveled with Moiraine and Lan, searching for the others.
Was one of those chapters at logains gentling?
No, that was completely fabricated for the show.
@@NarfiRef Ah right, thought you were defending it!
@@jordanmurphy4156 I was merely correcting some errors in what Brandon said about the book. I’m not defending the show in any way.
@@NarfiRef It was not completely fabricated. Logain was gentled, just under totally different circumstances. But reds DID gentle men who could channel without the proper proceedings, so it could have happened this way. And for me Ep. 4 was just great, so I am fine with this adaptation.
My wife is heartbroken. This was her favorite series. I bought her every hardcover about one every paycheck at the time. I personally only read the first book back around 2001.
I fell asleep watching the series with her last week and woke up to her saying she doesn't think she can endure another season.....
I feel badly for the hard-core fans that have dreamed of this series being made for 20 years only to be so disappointed.
I've tried watching it with my girlfriend who haven't read the books. Even though she didn't have books for reference like i do, she refused to watch past second or third episode, saying she found series bad to the point of disgust.
I was willing to watch more, because i mostly found the incompetence of the series funny, but i'll be honest, i was almost shaking with rage when i saw what they did with Abell Cauthon. Out of all the character assassinations in that blasted series it was probably the most insidious.
My wife was the same. WOT was her favourite book series of all time.
She would reread all the books when ever a new one came out.
When we found out that Brandon was writing the end of WOT, she listened to more of Brandon books and liked the Era 2 of mistborn and the Stormlight series.
We watched I think 2 episodes of the 3 that dropped on the first day.
And even today she still gets upset about the WOT series and she is even unhappy whenever I bring up Brandon and any of his books. She has not listened or read any of Brandon books since then, and I think she will never again.
It killed her love for the WOT so much that when I told her about “Origins of The Wheel of Time: The Legends and Mythologies That Inspired Robert Jordan” she was not even interested in it.
She was also a big fan of Writing Excuses, but has not listened to a single podcast since.
Well that is my rant. I now just need to decide if I should give up Brandon as well, or just listen to his book in private as I know she would never ask me to give it up.
😥
Dan, your WoT show reactions are totally valid. The non reader reactions are my favorite! Please theorise away!
Brandon, thank you for the wonderful thoughts on WoT and for your input on the show!
Brandon and Dan are more like Elayne and Nyneave in this podcast than anything I've seen. Dan, barging in with blanket statements destined to ruffle feathers, and Brandon, the consummate diplomat smoothing everything over as much as he can. GET THE BOWL OF THE WINDS ALREADY, YOU'VE BEEN IN TANCHICO FOR TWO BOOKS
This is easily the best comment I've read this year!
Ebou Dar*, though I can understand the confusion as the Nynaeve detective agency spends multiple books idling in a city more than once in the series lmao
So happy we have Mr Sanderson to bring us to the mind of an author who spent years in The Wheel of Time. Wonderful!
Thank you for your insight. The whole process of adapting books for television seems a lot more complicated than we could imagine. I appreciate these glimpses into this world.
He’s not in the writing room. He got to review scripts and give suggestions and he has an interest to continue getting that pay check till the series concludes. He’s either ok with them destroying the WoT or he’s ok with a fat Payday and is biting his tongue. There is no way he would have allowed for Lan to be the chosen weeper. LAN’s main thing in the books is ‘suck it up and don’t be a pussy, no matter your feelings… push those down as deep as they can go and wait till deaths before to pull them out and have a look.’ Seriously, there has never been a more stoic character than Lan. Rafe made him a Beta within 5 episodes.
@@squiggs928 All the males in this show are beta eunuchs.
Even though people were pissed about the changes to the Fellowship of the Ring, those changes were small relative to the actual story. WOT the show is changing whole elements of the story, important story and character arcs, etc.
But they did that to Lord of the Rings as well. The completely changed Aragorn's character, got rid of the actual ending (with the Battle of the Shire), cutting important characters like Glorfindel completely, creating the entire thing with the Eye of Sauron (which was just metaphorical in the books), made Gandalf have long fights with the Witch King (which fans argue breaks the entire lore by making Gandalf look weak), having Elves at Helm's Deep (which fans argue cheapens the entire thing) , and outright cutting many other characters, like Tom Bombadil. This is on top of basically deeply changing a lot of the tone by cutting basically all of the songs and poems, and having several scenes happen in a different order.
This basically matches the Wheel of Time adaptation so far. Character details were shifted a little to get them moving a little faster, as well as playing with the age up. The tone is a bit darker and more in line with the later books ther than TEotW's tone. Min was moved to be later on. The Dragon can be a women (which fans argue breaks the entire lore). I could keep this joke going by making one to one comparisons, but its there. The adaptation is about as accurate to the books as the Lord of the Rings trilogy was.
@@MFMegaZeroX7 But the difference is this: the lord of the rings movie was still good. in fact it was a masterpiece, while The wheel of time tv series is trash. the plot doesn't make any sense, the audience never has any clue WHERE we are, it visually looks like LARPing and the characters are total caricatures. The acting is pretty good though I'll give it that.
@@tom4115 Not true at all. My non book reader family is enjoying the show, and most non-book readers are enjoying it as well. The haters are mainly a small group of very loud book fans, or people motivated be politics. If you look at the imdb reading breakdown, you can that women and young men like the show, and it is mainly boomer men that don't like the show.
@@MFMegaZeroX7 I predict the show won't last 4 seasons. It will be entirely unsatisfying. All the emotional "hits" like Lan crying like a loony, logain being a nutter, morraine being weak, the Aes Sedai acting like school girls are all like pawn pushes in chess: they can serve a very short term goal but lead to long term weaknesses. Those tricks have now been played and can't be played again: you can't put Lan back to being stoic, you can't make Logain insanely determined again, you can't make Morraine or any Aes Sedai wise again.
@@tom4115 What are you even talking about? Lan is stoic, and has been the entire time except for the grieving ceremony where he was selected to be the griever, where he had to then show emotion for the role. Also, Lan often feels emotion even if he doesn't show it.
Moiraine has been strong the entire show, so I have no idea what you are taking about there.
Logan was literally just gentle and doing his part. "Determined" was only a thing after being healed.
And White Tower scheming has been book accurate as well. Most the Aes Sedai are pawns. Most scheming is done by Reds and Blues, and Browns do nearly none. I really have no idea what you are trying to elude to, since I don't keep up with whitecloak outrage.
Moiraine: Rand eat your beans. You need protein.
Rand Al'Thor the dragon reborn: I refuse to fall in some aes sedai trap.
"I will not be used!"
I will not be a pawn of the White Tower
Uhh spoilers dude they haven't narrowed it down in the show and many show fans may watch this
Cmon man that was just a blatant spoiler u didn’t need to add
@@Stuugie. the show is different from the book.
I am excited to know who the dragon reborn is in the show as well.
However a good practice is not to dig too deep and too greedily in comments lest you uncover a spoiler.
Thank you, I really needed this. As a long time/die hard fan of WoT I`ve been very much on the fence about the first episodes (loved episode 4) and a few things have really bugged me.
Perrin killing his wife was one of those things for the exact same reasons you gave and it really pulled me out of the immersion. Your explanation of why certain choises where made also made it easer for me to accept (tho I will never agree that Perrin killing his wife was a good storytelling choise).
There are other things I find hard to accept but I just need to change my mentality into accepting that this is just a different turning of the wheel.
You pointing out many of the same issues as I have with this adaptation really helped.
The youtube fandome reaction to the show has been really strange to me. Its either every single thing the showrunners have done is great/perfect/fantastic, or it is that everything is straight up trash.
I fint it hard to express with words but it was such a releaf to hear your disagreements with the showrunner and you beeing willing to point that out. So far the show is not trash and its not the greatest thing ever. Its a promising fantasy show that hopefully has many more seasons to come.
Him being able to point out stuff didn’t have any affect on the choices Rafe Made. Brandon was in charge of nothing. He’s a script consultant. Amazon chose the newest Rian Johnson to helm this dumpster fire and we’re getting exactly what we’ve gotten from everything other than the LOTR trilogy and GoT (when they followed the books and the author was in the room leading the adaptation). A remake that ‘brings things into a modern mindset’.
What do you want to bet that Mistborn is a better reflection of what Brandon write than WoT has been?
@@squiggs928 Amen.
This whole "I judt need to change the way I think about it" is just way too much work to force yourself to like the crap they are making. And let me remind you that they are say THIS IS WHEEL OF TIME. Not a "different turning of the wheel". Not even claiming to be loosely based on the books. They're saying THIS is the books come to film. Brandon making that crap up is his way of dealing with the disappointment.
@@brednbudr2406 It's not a different turning, absolutely. Different turnings happened with different people (other than those few reborn). Brandon is a sellout and knows it. He knows RJ would have never allowed him on the series if he had this sellout attitude. RJ hated what was done to his work by others who changed it for their own goals.
@@adidabax6809 you got it. This is an assault on another thing we love for the sake of the blue check mark crowd on Twitter.
Can we take a moment to appreciate how many nice guy vibes Brandon has?
So chill and considered considering his mammoth output.
"I believe strongly that an adaptation is a new piece of art, even one that is sticking close to it. Let the new piece of art be a new piece of art because it DOESN'T CHANGE THE BOOKS. You can always go read the books again, and people who love the show can go read the books and get something new from them." Wise words from Brandon.
Absolutely!
We can question the choices they make in the show, but that doesn't mean we just shit on it because it's not 100% true to the book. Some of the changes are actually good, and that can be a little hard to accept for hardcore book fans.
@@NahlaAnwer have you watched it? Can you find a scene in it that was the same as the books other than the sets? If the character arcs are going to remain the same then shouldn’t their motivations be the same? Ie….. where is Matt’s real family? Matt is a thief? Who is Perrin’s wife? Why is the Two Rivers so diverse? It’s the most isolated community in the whole of the map and has been for a really really long time. Nynaeve has yet to tug her braid (that would make her an angry woman and she can’t be represented that way in today’s society). Who the fuck is this Warder that we’re spending an entire episode worth of time following so that the payoff is that Lan changes from the stoic Last King of Malkier into whoever the hell that was at the end of episode 5, crying for all so that the rest don’t have to?
I tried watching this through the ‘it’s a different turning’ lens but the further they part ways with the original material the more this resembles a CW or Marvel show and far less about what the vast majority of the fans, and likely Robert Jordan himself, wanted from this. Also the CGI is not holding up. I’m not looking forward to this LOTR series Amazon is going to puke up next.
It's art only if it truly is art. If it's a political message and profiteering disguised in art... it's a political message and profiteering.
@@adidabax6809 Art is often political in message. It almost always has been. Many of our classics, like Dante's Inferno, were often commentary on then-current political issues.
Instead of seeing this as another turning of the wheel, I've been looking at this as a gleeman's version of the story documented in Loial's history.
Omg, awesome idea!
I see it as one of the flicker parallel worlds.
That’s how I fixed some of the weird inconsistencies in the first few books for my head cannon. Books 1-3 are Thom’s version of the story, and the rest of the series is loial’s history. It also explains why the slog is so detailed and dry. An ogier was writing it 😂
I watch it as Shannara chronicles season 3
A very weird gleeman.
Died at "so he's the other writer who's a WRITER, what do we do with him?" 😆
11:27 Brandon: It is Rafe saying "Alright, I feel like I can not adapt the Wheel of Time to the screen in a way that is going to convey what's in the books."
It is at this point that Rafe should have stepped aside and let someone who COULD adapt the story as it was in the book make the show instead. Like seriously what is wrong with these people in Hollywood?
I think it would take 28 years of episodes to do a 'true' adaptation. and thats kind of what they were hinting at. not that i'd avoid watching that. haha. edit: especially if Robert Jordan were alive to write the screen adaptation himself.
@@estebanelguapo One Piece has over a thousand chapters, yet it got a faithful adaptation. I'm tired of people saying it is impossible.
@@wackyswacky1374 I mean you say that but, it's really not the best adaptation. It's plagued with horrible pacing issues and intentional slowdowns.
Edit:
Adding on, its a completely different medium, (Animation vs Live Action) with different needs and different issues.
I don't doubt completely faithful animated Wheel Of Time series could be produced. I do strongly doubt a live action series can be.
@@wackyswacky1374 I'm saying I cannot understand how that would begin to work. even if original author was adapting it it would most definitely not be the book not by a long shot. I don't see what the number of episodes or seasons would be to reach what most people would call a book to script faithful adaptation. honestly I liked lord of the rings and it isnt really a faithful adaptation, but I liked it first couple times I seen it. After then I read the books again and it felt like the movies (the longer 3 plus hour ones) feel like a series of action pieces with very little time in between. and frodo is supposed to be mid aged with an actual real servant and a couple of youngsters who look up to him, not 4 same aged friends, saruman not in league with sauran, glorfindel got gender swapped and/or removed depending on ur perspective, Imrahil is in most scenes of the return of the king but doesn't exist in the movie at all. we'd be lucky to get a lord of the rings adaptation and its not very close really.
@@estebanelguapo WoT would have been better suited as an animated series than a live-action one.
they're both so wholesome!! man, no wonder Sanderson's fandom is so nice, they've got a great example to look up to.
What I hate the most in The Wheel of Time tv show is they're keep saying that Dragon can be man OR woman. WTF what danger can pose a woman Dragon if she wouldn't go mad using magic... The whole reason why Dragon Reborn is dangerous is the fact that Dragon is going to be man. Women are extremely important and powerful in the series anyway, there is no reason to change that...
Sex is a social construct, so there cant be different magic based on sex.
@@deth3021 have you read the books? In this series men and women have separate magic sources and The Dark One tainted men source so if they use it they'll eventually go mad. Dragon was a man, and Dragon Reborn also is man, and this is the reason why it's so dangerous. This is the whole concept of this series, that he is the only one who can win against The Dark One, but he can/will destroy the world because of his madness. Also, sex isn't a social concept, but a biological truth.
@@CoKaNee you apparently have never heard of a simple concept called sarcasm.
I was using that to point out why they couldnt have seperate magics in their world view.
I mean if trans woman are women... then how could they not be able to use saidin? Easy fix in a fantasy world, in their view.
@@deth3021 sorry but it's kind of hard to recognise sarcasm online from random ppl this day.
@@CoKaNee true dat.
This is the WoT reaction video I’ve been waiting for.
I've always felt like Reckoners would be such a great opportunity for a screen adaptation.
I just finished book 12 and didn’t realize that was the first one Sanderson worked on - he wrote the heck out of it! I really enjoyed book 11 (after dragging myself through books 8-10), but 12 is probably my favorite after books 1-3. I love the pacing, and the drastic reduction of spankings and use of the word ‘bosom.’
Pacing is something the show has a chance to improve. The book series should have been shorter, with a lot of the gristle trimmed out of books 9 and 10 in particular
It's fun, in his intro he underlined he wouldn't change his style, and write it as himself...
Yet like you, I almost did not notice the change of writer (except for his name on the cover)!
I did notice the writing style change so much so that it was hard to get started for me. I like jordans explanation of every single thought, and every single piece of clothing and how it was made and who made it, and what they were eating and how it was prepared and what it smelled like and maybe 5 versions and intrpretations and views of one thing from some odd number of peoples point of view. I like the extreme minutiae :P don't ask me why. he also does a lot of unreliable narration, often will talk whole chapter about a scene with someone about that someone but refuses to let the 'camera' see that someone and will describe from an angle where description can be given but one that refuses to let u know who it is, sometimes till the end of that chapter. I like his particular type of weird. guess i'll have to go read his version of conan the barbarian cause he had intended on writing more things after wot but didn't get the chance at the end. I've pictured him as someone who could have wrote a 700 page version of someone walking through the woods one mile and you don't learn who they are and where they are going till book 2.
Yay, you survived the slog. Now it's all reward...
The series could have been 8 or less book if descriptions were brief and some odd tangents were taken out.
Haven't watched the show yet, not impressed with the woke stuff or perrin killing his wife (article reviews)
@@randiway7476 If you watch it as its own self contained story with familiar elements. It has some good scenes and some good episodes. But u have to cherry pick which scenes or episodes u like from the ones u dont. Which story elements u like from the ones u dont. And u have to try shield ur mind from some weird anti-male hangup the story runner guy Rafe has that he just has difficulty resisting plastoring on in the writing in the dialog written out straight. men=stupid, women=awesome. I personally equalize all genders and even non traditonal gender views. I feel Rafe doesnt really, it seems heavy handed to me. its probaby out of many good things list v bad things list the one thats the most annoying to me personally because interferes in my being able to just enjoy it. its the metaforical vaccum cleaner that someone is pushing through the room while ur trying watching something. If he keeps this up i'll prob be yelling at my screene can u not rant on ur views of men in some side thing while I try and watch ur show please.
I love how Brandon summarized each of the groupings of books. That was perfect.
Staying more true to the source material doesnt automatically mean it cant be successful to a broad audiance. The changes to the serie has made it something totally different. This is more than just not liking a casting.
36:09 Dan: "Okay. Hurt him, but don't kill him."
Me: "I've read Way of Kings, I know where this is going."
I feel like Matt really gets good in book 3, and continues in 4 to expand into greatness.
I loved Mat in book 3 and I think The Dragon Reborn is underrated compared to the other books.
He didn't beat kids in the books, tho.
@@adidabax6809 Missed opportunity!
I think Matt was great all along.
This is the level of pure nerding out that I've been looking forward to ever since the series released!
LotR movies actually followed the plot of the books. More then 50% of what we have seen so far in WoT is made up nonsense and the parts that do resemble the books have been massively reworked. At this point when we randomly find ourselves in a book situation, it feels like an Easter egg and not the point of the series. That is a major concern.
Imagine if Sam was already married and killed Rosie, Merry an Pip were lovers and Aragorn was an emotional wreak the whole time, and the story was told through gandalf's pov.....oh and they spend 20% of the movie on a made up character who wasnt in the books.
What about the fact that only a man can be the dragon? They emphasize many times in many episodes that any of the 5 kids from two rivers could be the dragon. Doesn't that diametrically and critically change the entire foundation of the story? They've already doomed the series.
Hey Brandon, now that the 6th episode is out, I would love to hear your perspective on what made it your favorite. For me it was difficult to watch, but you always give such good spins on the things I would never have thought about. Next time you speak on the WoT TV show could you take a moment to talk about those things that made the 6th episode the best for you?
Yeah, I found that comment really interesting. It was my and my wife's least favorite episode of all of them. Glad episode 7 redeemed things a bit for us.
The purity test can (and should) always be good writing with limited plot holes and quite honestly, that is not what is happening with the WoT adaptation. Logical character motivations and actions that hold true through out a scene/episode (or hopefully the whole season) should be a standard we can all agree on.
Exactly. I can accept all the changes to the story if the write it well. The quality of the writing, directing, and editing has been abysmal.
As a book reader, I'm really struggling with this show so far. Some of the early changes I could understand a little, like Perrin's wife, Mat's family, and skipping Baerlon for example. However, some of the changes in the past couple of episodes (3-5) are leaving me more confused as each episode comes out. The entire Stepin plotline and switching from Caemlyn to Tar Valon was probably the worst offender to me. All of this seems unnecessary and almost contradicts the story from the books in a way that I have no idea where things are going or how they're going to get there now. My GF and I literally took 2 hours just to watch episode 5 because we kept stopping every few minutes to vent about the changes. Listing to Brandon talk about his take on things after being able to read the scripts and see the broader vision behind the scenes does help a little bit. Though, as a weekly viewer who doesn't have the same benefits of seeing the bigger picture, I feel each week will continue to push me away even further. I truly wish that the showrunners could put out a barebones outline of their vision and how they are changing things, this way we book-readers can help get over that hurdle a little better. As it stands, the show is clashing way too much with the book as is and I'm left either bored or angry when watching the episodes because I know none of this has anything to do with the overall story and I have to wait to see where it's going to go. I'm really trying to give this a chance and I WANT to put my faith in Rafe and the others but I'm just not seeing how this will end well.
Completely agree. 5 was terrible and 6 had me and my wife nearly shouting at the TV, it was so bad. They've ruined the show for us and several friends as well. It isn't WoT, and it isn't some stupid imaginary version of WoT either.
@@brednbudr2406 It's a political statement which you better get used to. They are going to continue to hammer this and destroy what you love just bc they can.
@@brednbudr2406 I have to agree! Them spending 20 minutes on a certain characters sex life when you only have 8 hours to tell a whole book was a huge waste of time IMO! Could have spent that time learning about Loial and why he is even in the show because at this point I feel they could have left him out! Now that he is not needed to open The Ways, they could have tossed him completely out of the show. If you make it so only Aes Sedai can open them, then surely you could make it so they know how to navigate them as well.
I just need to say that using the oath rod the way they did in ep 6 is Total Crap! Lost me completely there. Wow, just not at all in tune with how the Aes Sedai think of or use the oaths. Terrible choice in a sea of questionable ones.
I find it very frustrating to hear so many defend the changes to they can hear bits of the same thing that once made them so happy, why did it make you happy. It made you happy because of the meaning under the story. These changes are not skipping or shrinking some stories to make it "fit" on screen, but keeping the main events as if that was all the story was. Come see the big flashy moments after we skip and twist the plot to get there. They might be able to tell a good story out of the part, but it will be a new story. It could be a different turning to keep things new, but that means new people will miss the story many want people to hear. Instead of more people finally having easier access to the greatest fantasy story, they will have this pathetic shadow to turn them away. The best I think we can hope for is to hope the story they do tell is good enough a few might be interested in reading it more than get turned away. This is LOR with magic blood thirsty hobits.
The mental gymnastics to accept this is ok to be adapted this way is incredible. I guess its maybe good to live life with positive bias.
Lost respect for Sanderson for supporting the replacement of WoT with woke propaganda.
I would love to hear you discussing this series without worrying about spoilers.
Nothing was spoiled that hasn't already aired.
You don't want spoilers? Don't watch videos almost certainly containing some.
They were clear about it from the start.
@@ChristmasLore I think what they meant is that they want to hear them discuss the topic without the speakers themselves worrying about spoiling it for listeners.
There was one episode like two weeks ago where I thought, wow, 90% of this entire episode didn’t happen in the book. Yes Thom fought a fade, and yes Egwene danced…and that was it 🤷♂️ I finished the book the night that the show pr misted so it was super fresh in my mind.
That has been pretty much every episode.
And it just gets worse. :D (Ep. 6)
It's alot worse when you know how the first books sets up the rest of the series.
@@Ashtor1337 Indeed.
They put you in the front credits so they can gain extra validation for all the wackiness they were going to do to the "adaptation". I'm glad Brandon expains how the show runner isn't trying to really make it close to the books. the "different turning of the wheel" mind trick is something most of us fans who literally grew up with the books ( 12 at the first book, 33 at the last) will have to do .
It seems to me, that if you have to create your own head canon to like a sequel or an adaptation, that maybe you don't actually like it. And to me, that is actually perfectly fine. The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy and this TV show are bridges too far for me because I refuse to bend the characters into pretzels in my head.
I say that not to pick a fight with people who like both the books and show, but simply to state that you don't have to talk yourself into liking a mediocre (in my opinion) adaptation, just because it is all you will get. Maybe it will be for the best if the show folds before they twist the Stone of Tear, Rhuidean, the Battle of Cairhein, Dumai Wells, the Cleansing, The Tower of Genji into something unrecognizable.
Fans of the books will not watch the show
@@customsongmaker I quit watching and reading the novels and much better. Show is a travesty and disgrace to Robert Jordan novels. Shame on Rathe and Amazon for the craptastic woke show
When you say "How's that Ben" at the end there it really feels personal. Even though that you are not talking to me. Good, that is my answer, it was a good discussion. Keep it up!
My heart skipped a beat when Brando mentioned the Mistborn Adaptation.
I bet you the Mistborn adaptation resembles the books…….
I love that you gave a nod to what Rafe is doing with the emotional experience of Wheel of Time. I felt this with Loial. His dialog was so close to the books, and it being Loial the Wheel of Time bookworm himself made me so very happy. Did you have anything to do with that? It seems like a clever little nod that is just hidden enough to be a Sanderson level easter egg.
Felt the same way ... but Rand didn't responded and staying in his one dimension he started sobbing about Egwene.
It was nice to have at least one scene that was book accurate in that episode... The rest of it was not Wheel of Time.
The shows awful and I've lost so much respect for Brandon after praising it plus condoning the scripts... Mark Hamil actually fought for star wars
Dialogue and scenes that are actually from the books should not feel like an eater egg in a good adaptation
@@Merecir If they filmed forty pages of internal monologues, the cancellation would have already been announced.
4 POV characters in Book 1, but Nynaeve and Moirains's are very brief in book 1.
5 POVs if you include the prologue, and 7 if you include the prophecies. 7 POVs is the technically correct answer accepted in trivia contests, which always surprises people and makes them mad. 😁
@@MarisuSedai Mmmaybe, I don't count those as POV in the book since they all happen outside the storyline of the book, and they're more like quotes than POVs I guess you could include the prologue, but that's more of a video playback to me.
@@MarisuSedai Does that count the Extra Egwene POV's in the "YA" rerelease of Eye of the World?
@@TheLordofMetroids It does not, but I’m pretty sure “Ravens” is only included in a split version of EotW.
Sanderson is a great writer though thinking the WoT show is a near recreation of the book is nuts
Loved this discussion, thank you Brandon and Dan. It might not change the mind of the most vocal of show haters (it's become part of their personality at this point) but it may just comfort some of those willing (but not currently able) to like the show.
And if anyone cares, below are my thoughts (an essay really, lmao) about the show and how I approach it as a piece of art. TL;DR - I align with Brandon, and superficial, head canon, or minor plot differences are not important to me.
What's important to me in a TV show - good acting, writing, music, beautiful scenery and sets, and an engaging plot. In my opinion, this show has succeeded in delivering these things to us, and I am thrilled about it and so are my non-book reader wife and friends. They are enjoying the hell out of the Dragon mystery, are absorbed in the world, and won't stop talking about it. That means a lot to me - growing the WoT fandom, especially in my everyday life, has brought me so much joy!
To get into some detail, the actors - pretty much regardless of experience - use subtle facial cues and body positioning to emote their inner thoughts, while delivering well-crafted lines that create or smooth conflict as needed in the ebb and flow of the plot. Nynaeve talking with Moiraine at the sacred pool is one such example, as is Rand's discussion with Mat about the events at the Grinwell farm in episode 5. Just so well done and effective. The only time I feel the writing/delivery seems off is when they're obviously rushing through a scene - like during Moiraine's monologue in the series cold open and at then end of the same episode when they rushed out of EF.
Lorne Balfe's score weaves so wonderfully into the landscape and character moments that half the time I forget it's there until I swell up with emotion and realize the music is magnifying the epic events on screen. Can't say I totally dig Thom's song (it's just fine, great symbolism/foreshadowing though), but for diegetic music the Manetheren song was awesome and a good unifying moment for the EF4. And the opening sequence, both musically and visually - holy shit, so good!
The sets and scenery are gorgeous, no complaints at all on that front. And the plot beats, while about 40-50% different from what I remember from the books (I last read EoTW for the 7th time about 2 years ago, currently on PoD this reread) all drive home the nature of the world and our characters, and many 'different' scenes are only different in timing or location or dialogue - they still achieve the same things.
Thinking hard about it now, but the only plot moments I don't think serve much of a purpose (although I am willing to be convinced there are others, or that this was important) all involve 'ol Fire Eyes - one jump scare was good, two was enough, but for crying out loud start telling us why this scary dude is important! The looming threat of the Dark One doesn't seem to be affecting my wife or friends and I think this is why. How they've used different plot beats to characterize Nynaeve and Lan though, for example, have been amazing - I feel like I can appreciate those characters way sooner than I did in the books, even though they both have arcs on the horizon that will change them some (making them softer/harder) in later seasons.
Now, what's not really important to me in a TV show - character height, skin color, eye color, or anyone's (including my own) head canon. None of those things not matching with the source material should affect your enjoyment of the story being told unless they are KEY plot points (like Rand's hair color linking him with the Aiel). You used your imagination while reading the books, now use your imagination again while watching the show. Enjoy the story coming to life or complain about something that actually matters - with actual examples to support your point. Moiraine being tall doesn't affect her plot - her presence and charisma (whether she's short or tall) are what allow her to do what she does in book 1. And so on.
Finally, what's never important to me - the opinions of anyone who complains about something using the word 'woke'. Unfortunately, the list of people in the WoT fandom I've had to disregard for that reason has grown more than I anticipated over the past year or so. Oh well, the Wheel weaves I guess. Time to end this essay.
You're aware Robert Jordan hated everything done in his name that didn't represent his life's work? I guess he's a "hater"?
@@adidabax6809 I think his wife knows what he would like better than you do mate. But sure
@@edwardguest1404 Have not heard a peep out of her. They got her muzzled up tight in nondisclosure agreements.
'You stupid kid! Listen to Moiraine!' Love it! Really enjoyed this conversation. I was not blessed with a very good memory so though I've read the series twice so many details are fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure Mat is supposed to be roguish and funny, yes? I started reading them in the early 90s.
“Rafe is a great writer…”
Then how do you explain season one?
That’s interesting. I feel like a lot of the same touchstones are there. Winternight attack, call to adventure, Shadar Logoth, Perrin/Eg/Wolves/Whitecloaks, Mat/Rand/Darkfriends, Nyn/Moiraine/Lan, then instead of Caemlyn, it’s Tar Valon, so we can actually see Logain’s stuff that was going on largely in the background.
You are everywhere. Love to see it.
@@Altonahk hahaha I may or may not be using some of this audio for my next couple of TikToks 👀. Also I’m a BranSanStan, so of course I’m here! 😎
The names are there, but the characters, timing, outcomes of interactions, roles the characters play, and scene locations are all radically different to the point of being polar opposites.
This is not an adaptation, this is a fan fiction piggy backing off of the fame of this existing IP so that a gay game show writer can self insert all his closeted teenage fantasies into someone else’s life work.
@@Nonviableaccount who hurt you?
@@franciscoquintana2017 He is right. Rafe is not talented enough to create anything of value. Dude picked WoT to fix the problematic parts and push his political agenda.
I want to like the Wheel of Time adaptation. I realize changes must be made. But they have changed motivations and behaviors in ways I don't like. Thus I have decided to think of it as fan fiction. I like the scenery, settings, props, costumes. The casting is good. But the changes to the story are extremely disappointing. Thank you Brandon Sanderson for the excellent way you completed the series.
I just know about this through Knights Watch
I agree 100%
they did a horrible job on the Amazon show so bad that I quit watching it and read novels instead. They cut the entire prologue from the first novel which made the show difficult to watch if one had not already read the novels and replaced it with woke garbage. Show is not even close to the novels more like Amazon made a Woke of Time soap opera with man hating characters.
@@GuitarsAndSynths you didn't read the books before watching and switched to the books? Is that what you were saying? If so how do you like the books so far? Is the plot better?
Sorry don't mean to come off rude. I just mix stuff up sometimes
Notice how the Game of Thrones, when it stuck to the script, was best reviewed and when they went off on their own, doing whatever they want. the series started to suck major ass?
That's exactly how Wheel of Time is starting off. This first season is as bad as the last season of Game of Thrones.
Also, the number of people upset about Glorfindel and Bombadil is completely dwarfed by the number of people upset by the changes in WoT so far. Jackson did a good enough job with everything else that people were willing to let go of Glorfindel and Bombadil. That isn't true of this series. Nothing has been done very well.
Exactly.
The LOTR examples were laughable. I said in another comment, it would be comparable if Aragorn killed Arwen, gimli and Legolas were gay lovers, and the Two Towers book was completely skipped.
@@brednbudr2406 This is as bad (or worse) as the Hobbit, which was terrible. I've rewatched LOTR dozens of times. I saw the Hobbit once and will never watch it again. And for anyone that tries to say this is closer to LOTR than the Hobbit, look at their IMDB ratings. This has a lower IMDB rating than the Hobbit, which was significantly lower than LOTR. This show is hot garbage.
Exactly. And that wasn't such a secret, it's widely known.
They went really weird ways about it.
@@briankern4233 the hobbit did lots of changes the right way. Just throw a lot of action into the mess and you will have less complaints.
@@magnusarsland6887 idk, I thought the Hobbit was absolutely awful. The circus show in the goblin caves was absolutely ridiculous nonsense. The unnecessary love scene between the fictional elf Tauriel and Kili was also ridiculous nonsense. The Hobbit wasn't full of woke bs like this show but it was still terrible and Jackson got way too heavy handed, ruining the story.
I am one of those that WANT to love it, but just can't. My main problem is not with race or sexuality etc, but when they change fundamental physics of the WOT universe. Like the oath rod scene. That is just worldbreaking that they added that.
Another is Loial. The actor is doing a great job with portraying Loial's personality, but there is nothing here to explain what an Ogier IS. He has no identity, agency or purpose in this adaptation. Also, he is WAY too small. As far as I remember, he is supposed to be larger than a trollock, and that is not what we are seeing here.
Also, geography. There is no feeling of how vast this world really is. They teleport from one part of the map to another, much like you can do in later parts of a video game.
Linking? Why are they shielding Logain one and one? Later in THE SAME episode, they show you that they can link. Why not use that?
And that Valda torture scene, don't get me started. Pfft. What were they thinking?
The logical inconsistencies in the world THEY are building is ruining the show. I can view this as a separate story adaptation, but when they break their own universe again and again, it turns out that the writing is just lacking, and the show suffers from it.
agree and glad to read novels instead of the show.
What about the fact that only a man can be the dragon? They emphasize many times in many episodes that any of the 5 kids from two rivers could be the dragon. Doesn't that diametrically and critically change the entire foundation of the story? They've already doomed this series.
With absolute respect, I find this show to be closer to 75% reimagined.
Reimagined through the eyes of a lesser Hollywood screenplay writer with a political agenda.
@@tilemacro big L
Also, lets be honest. Is it ENTIRELY possible to translate this story to scene. Look at the first season of GoT. It had hardly any magic. Yet Dand and Dave simply followed the book EXACTLY, not just in script but also in tone as closely as possible and the result was unanimous positive reception and the biggest show in the world
It's a very different proposition though. George RR Martin had a history of writing for TV, and GoT is meticulously paced. The Eye of the World weaves and meanders. Lots of stuff just happens. Some is setting up future storylines. It's much closer to Lord of the Rings that way.
@@guywalker1196 The issues Im speaking of have NOTHING to do with adapting to TV. The changes that hurt this show are *ideologically* driven. WoT at its core has themes of genders being different, yet complimentary and the most amazing feats are acconplished when male+females work together as a whole. This aspect of WoT flies in the face of what the show wants to say/show. So, you get a myriad of changes, any of which wouldnt be a deal breaker on their own, yet grains of sand make a pile. Zoom out and you'll see a common theme: 1)Take away from male characters, give to female characters. 2)Take away strong/mentor/stoic male character attributes, insert inept, cowardice, effeminate/unmasculine, inconsequential qualities: Emmonds field Female mayor, show female winespring inn owner over husband, Womens circle is a big thing, yet Town Council is gone. Egwene kills whitecloaks, not perrin. Nynaeve tracks group, teaches Lan morraines "tell"(instead of tracking due to healing egwene). Nynaeve kills trollocs with weapons, Nynaeve kills men with weapons, dragon can be male or female, Logain is a weak, effeminate, idiot instead of the strong, stoic, intelligent character he is supposed to be. Same goes for all other male characters. They didnt change Thom as much, but they cut him out mostly so thats why. Lews Therin is a whining, power hungry fool bleating and begging the strong, smart female "Tamyrlin" seat (which shouldnt exist in AoL), who somehow knows that the Dark One could taint Saidin and tries to warn the stupid, impulsive, power hungry idiot. This is not true; No one knew the DO could taint Saidin and Lews Therin was the leader of the Aes Sedai anyway. But, because of ideology they had to make him a fool and this "Tamyrlin" the shrewd, intelligent one that foresaw the folly of the poor fool Dragons plan. Evem Rands finale, where he FINALY got some screentime and action was....all about the women. The thing that snapped him out of the tempting vision? The vision becoming reality would take Egwenes agency and choice away from her. If that isnt an allegory to the showrunners ideology that has permeated every facet of this adaptation then you are blind. Rand was supposed to face the foresaken in combat, after the women tried and were no match, then decimate the trolloc hordes. What happened instead? Rands fight was about the females agency being taken away, and then the women defeated the Trolloc horde. Yay! Any one of these things isnt an issue...but when you see the same theme oxxuring over, and over, and over, and over you start getting annoyed. Until you realize. They dont care about the source material, or any source material: It is merely a conveyor belt to make their ideological statements. Why use this instead of coming up with an original work? Because, no one would give a shit nor watch their drivel. They HAVE to license a widely known, popular IP so they can catfish people into watching on name recognition, only to bait and switch a steaming pile of horeshit. Whats worse is, aside from the heavy handed ideological propganda, the shownis ate up with bad writing, bad editing, bad CGI, bad dialogue, bad everything
@@strat5520 RJ went on record saying that he was inspired to write the gender politics in the Wheel of Time because he read a fantasy novel where a woman was told she *couldn't* be something because she was a woman.
He said he wanted to create a world that had a form of gender equality.
Some readers, reviewers, and commentators would argue that in some ways RJ's world is still bound by an outdated idea of gender.
Updating this is absolutely in line with the soul of the books and RJ's original aspiration.
I'm not going to get into your examples because I just don't agree. The series presents us with strong male characters in Rand Lan, and Logain. The TV series actually goes out of its way to assert the Warders' agency and partnership with Aes Sedai over subservience in a way the book never does.
Would you rather the TV series followed the Eye of the World's awful confusing ending (which RJ went on record saying he regretted) and have Rand do everything by killing a Forsaken then teleporting to Tarwin's Gap? Or is it better to reflect the spirit of the series as a whole and make it an ensemble piece, where everyone has something to do in the finale? (Bear in mind Rand is basically absent from 4 books in the series...)
Rand's scene with Ishamael is also clearly inspired by later scenes in the series (read Egwene's Accepted test and Rand's vision of the world without the Dark One in AMoL). So I'd argue they *do* care about the source material
@@guywalker1196 Riiight lol. RJ wrote awesome characters, all with agency, power etc. He didnt have to take away from male characters in a cheap effort to make you like the female characters like this show does (and yet somehow still fucks it up and makes you want to roll your eyes). He wrote great female characters that everyone loves. This show is a JOKE compared to the original work in terms of the male and female dynamic. An entire central theme of WoT is the balance and importance of each half of the "ancient symbol" in terms of gender...ahhhhh! But you see that in itself is """"problematic""""" because the modern Woke interpretation is there is NO strengths/weaknesses of each gender because there is NO gender. So you see, they cannot faithfully tell RJs story because they HATE the very premise of RJs WoT themes. They have to """"re-imagine"""" it, which in this case means this: Tear out its soul, tear out the soul of each character. Take power, agency, screentime, acts etc away from male characters, give those things to female characters. Then, aside from Woke inspired things/reasonings: Write horrible dialog. Use horrible editing. Spend time on useless things, dont spend time on important things, character dev, plot etc. Case in point: Random warder suicide and resulting funeral where Lan slaps his chest and screams lol. If they had time for this pointless waste of time, sure. But, theyre struggling using the time they do have wisely. This show is an epic FAILURE. It will be cancelled eventually, probably right after 2nd season, unless Amazon wises up and kicks the intersectional zealots out and makes big changes.
@@guywalker1196 And yes, his scene with Ishamael is inspired by EGWENE'S vision from the test. But, notice, that Rands epic finale showdown, you know, where he actually FINALLY gets to do something, is....all about the women. The very thing that snaps him out of it is the fact that that reality doesnt take what Egwene wants into account; Her agency, her desires. Which is fine! However...this finale was supposed to be, and could have been, a showdown between the Dragon Reborn and Forsaken. A fight. Not waxing philosphically about Egwene, while Nynaeve, Egwene, and other women get to have the epic battle moment hahaha. Again, this shows recipe is: 1) Take cool points, wit, cleverness, positive attributes, "power", agency, scenes, etc from male characters. 2) Give those things to female characters. Oh look. lets make Agelmar be stubborn and wrong, while his sister is correct! Lets make Nynaeve and super-duper tracker that can show Lan Mandragoran Moraines tell, if he wants her to (why do this? To make Nynaeve look cool). Its so transparent and its so annoying. Theyre so worried about making the Woke statments and portrayals right they are tied in a fucking knot! This show will FAIL unless they stop this shit. Its not doing the female characters any favors. Its insulting
Book split was 3 biomes as far as the relevant part of the episode goes: Mat and Rand were on a river boat. Perrin and Egwene were on the Caralain Grass (A giant mostly empty plain with sparse wooded areas), and Moiraine, Lan, and Nynaeve were on the heavily wooded south side of the river.
Yeah, you wonder if Mat and Rand were on the same side of the river as Perrin and Egwene how they didn’t see them in the grasslands below from their vantage point.
I was disappointed not to see the White Bridge and Caemlyn, but sacrifices need to be made. I guess it was more important to spend and entire episode mourning the death of an Aes Sedai and for Lan to break character to emote over a friend’s senseless death, so we can understand the depth of the warder bond.
@@rjtwocircles I really wanted to see white bridge. A relic of the age of legends. It would have been cool to see. Instead we got a weird logain and moraine interaction lol
Brandon Sanderson talking about The Wheel of Time is one of my favorite things.
4:50
Good on you Brandon for being humble enough to know how hollywood works with regards to name drops.
As someone who only read the first book ages ago and has started watching the series almost “fresh”, I appreciate the thoughtfulness of this discussion to avoid major spoilers!!
I’m currently toward the end of book 4 so I’m just starting the “World Building Political Epic” era and I can definitely see the Dune references.
4 was my favorite as well
I could watch content like this all day. Also those facial expressions when Liandrin came up, absolutely hilarious.
The grim dark still feels accurate to the book. When I reread the books as an adult I realized how terrifying the horror elements actually were. They don't read super dark, but fades are evil beyond belief.
Dude, that scene in the shack in The Great Hunt, where Rand had bugs crawling all over him was written so horrifying.
Also on that note, EVERYTHING with the Renna and the collar in book two is some real adult fear.
Oh man and the girl in the Stone of Tear.
Then the Gholam... just everything about the Gholam.
Jordan didn't stray into pure horror that often but when he did, it was fantastic.
Read the whole series some weeks before the show came out, and I think many people gloss over their reading way more than Jordan actually glossed over the violence, both physical and psychological.
While maybe not "grimdark" (because regarding the outcome, there's still hope, optimistic view of life- mhm, the wheel... that can be discussed, Ishy had some good points.), the books are very dark (not gritty, but daaaark), and most certainly not PG.
@@TheLordofMetroids , Shadar Logoth, Bubbles of Evil, Hinderstap, Dumais' Well, Natrim Borrow, that other time Rand balefires his own men...
It's really all over the books, just peppered in, and people's nostalgia plays into the feeling too. They remember what they want to...
@@ChristmasLore not to mention the forsaken. The things they do to their "pets" can be horrifying. Looking at one in particular.
Hearing about your head cannon and your role in the show make me want to give it another try. Also hearing you guys namecheck Paolini by his first name amuses me greatly for some reason
The Wheel Of Time series had everything they needed to be successful and it proved out with viewer numbers but they’re alienating all the book fans with these crazy unnecessary changes. Why invent characters that have nothing to do with the storyline? What they’ve changed makes no sense. I understand removing or blending things to make the story work but this series has become awful because of what was added. I haven’t even stopped watching because of the differences from the book, I came to terms with that, it’s because they’ve re written the story into something that’s unwatchable. I’m not sure what they’re ultimate goal is but I can’t watch it without getting angry and a lot of book fans feel the same. We’ll see how they do without avid book fans to hype the show, it will have to keep people interested with their own writing and production and it will fail. It’s too bad because I was super excited, best series ever written. RIP Robert Jordan, we miss you.
well said.
Edit: Anyone who makes disparaging remarks on the following thread about the sexuality or race of the characters of woT is getting their comment reported. Leave your comments to that effect elsewhere, don't bring be into it. Back to the original comment.
I think people tend to hold LOTR as the gold standard of adaptation, rightly so imho, but forget that it did make big changes.
Faramir, Aragorn, Merry, Pippin, Gollum, Frodo, all saw big changes to their characters. And the films were better for it! It's just such a part of the zeitgeist now that everyone forgets how mad they were that Faramir wasn't a perfect paragon, or that Aragorn had some inner conflict about kinghood.
That's not even mentioning plot lines and scenes that didn't make it into the show or were changed completely (cough SCOURINGOFTHESHIRE cough cough).
I loved the ending and return to the Shire in the books, but I don't at all miss it in the film. I can see 100% why that would have been a terrible film ending. It already had like 5 endings as it is! 😆
Yes. I read LOTR every year for about 15 years straight. Love them. Also love the movies! I had complaints at the time, my biggest was the use of the Army of the Undead. But loved the movies otherwise. And I see them as too things closely related. They are fraternal twins almost. That may be a bad metaphor, but they are closely related, and yet unique.
I am was not, and still am not a fan of the Hobbit adaptations, and prefer the Rankin and Bass one. But that may be just me.
Yeah, the Hobbit was just...more than it needed to be? If you edit the whole thing down to one movie if just Hobbit things, I suspect there is a good film in there somewhere. The cast was lovely!
Sorry but I don‘t like the cinematography of the series. It‘s just extremely clunky and amateurish.
You're entitled to that opinion! Though my comment was about LOTR, I am assuming yours was about WoT and not LOTR. I guess you could.like LOTR was clunky, I would just be very surprised if you thought that 😂
Well, Amazon WoT writers made changes too… but series got worse because of it.
26:00 I'd say pushing Egwene off a cliff wasn't just to shoot a cool scene.. when she later channels, I've seen non-readers react with "Ohhh, like the river, she's letting go." I'm loving that people who don't know are connecting dots.
Don't know if that was intentional, because when Brandon asked them, they didn't even give that reasoning.
@@godminnette2 It may not have been the reason for it, but they clearly realized they had an opportunity with the river to explained giving in to Saidar.
Big black circles taking half the page each is what they are connecting. Show is written for imbeciles. Not implying every viewer is alternatively gifted, but it was created in a way that even person with room temperature IQ level would not miss a thing.
@@Alpha___00 not sure if this was meant to be as insulting as it came across but I think I do agree with the general premise to some extent. Books are an active medium, your eyes are traveling the page and reading the words, your brain is picturing the scenes etc. TV and movies are a more passive medium. You are sitting back and letting the images in front of you tell the story. I think because of that filmmakers HAVE to be a bit more obvious about a lot of things or they are going to lose and confuse the audience. And they are putting way too much money up front to take the chance of losing the audience.
@@Alpha___00 lol, Mr Alpha here is a big boy who can understand a complex story and he wants you to know.
I haven’t watched it yet, but I got Amazon Prime Video so I can, when I’m ready. But I respect Brandon. I trust Brandon. I believe he helped save The Wheel of Time. So having him be an advocate for us. As a representative for us as book lovers, to at least be able to watch and have them show him what they are doing. That’s a transparency and openness that speaks of respect for what this property is to us. And no matter what they change, if they maintain that respect they’ll have mine in return. That’s what D&D lost with GoT. They stopped respecting the property, and fans. Got petty and bitter and tired. I trust Harriet too, but she represents RJs interest more than we can.
Well... if you know RJ agonized over people taking advantage of his work to get paid and to promote their own messaging... you'll feel for him as you watch the series. If you don't know that, maybe you like it and contribute to something he would have hated. Brandon tells you Harriet had nearly nothing to do with it, his words are she's old, and he makes it sound like she's older than she is (82 is not too old for many to travel and to stay in touch with projects), which alludes to she may have healthcare bills to pay.
I agree as long as Brandon is actively involved and respected and Harriet is atleast involved even if not as actively as Brandon I will be happy.
@@edwardguest1404 They didnt take any of Brandon's advice. He says as much on this episode if you listen close to what he is saying and arent deceived by his nonchalant coolness
@@nathanmorgan3647 lol the guy literally said I am pleased by how much of my advice they actually took on and changed stuff for as well as posting on Reddit about how certain things in episode 1 and 2 were changed because of his advice. So I have no idea where you get that from.
@@edwardguest1404 /facepalm. They started out wanting to do incredibly stupid stuff, Brandon talked them back a little bit, but was unable to get them where he wanted them.
Prime example Perrin the wife murderer.
"Yeah, I guess having him kill someone early is an important scene SINCE YOU ARE CUTTING ALL THE CRITICAL DEVELOPMENT WITH THE WHITECLOAKS. But whatever you do, don't let him kill a wife. I can't see Perrin as able to function going forward if he kills his wife."
Wife goes splat.
It's a shite show shiting itself all over a great series.
We know we will never get another chance.... that's why we are so hurt by the show. Appreciate both of you.
Seeing a ton of negative comments right away, I read the books and really enjoy the show! Not everything is perfect of course, but I think a lot of us who are really liking it are the silent majority. Don’t let the loud negative nancies ruin your opinion or view of the show!
Thank You! Thank You! Thank You!
I'm changing my 'head cannon' to thinking of this as a new cycle of the Wheel. As one of those fans that have read the entire series -- including New Spring -- multiple times, I was having a very hard time with the Wheel of Time on Amazon. I'm reframing it and recalibrating my expectations so I can relax and enjoy the story.
Absolutely brilliant discussion! I have really enjoyed the WoT show as someone who hasn't read the series, and it's done for me exactly what it's done for Mrs. Wells--I really want to read the books now. (Picking up Eye of the World as soon as Season 1 ends.) And that's, I think, the best thing an adaptation can do: share a story with people who otherwise might never have given it a chance. It doesn't have to be a 1 to 1. But it has to be good in its own right, and it has to be, at its core, the same thing. And that's the vibe I'm getting so far.
I had it in my TBR list for a long time, but I'm planning exactly the same.
Finish season one and then start with the books.
It's not at all the same. Brandon said that several times above. Enjoy the books, they are great.
Well that's is the way it is sometimes...this time it's more a "purposely insulting a dead man's legacy" kinda thing. Its just another bad Woke show that tries to hammer home a very toxic massage.
Don't expect any similarities beyond the names.
@@TypausZuendorf Dude, you realize what you are doing right now is INENTIONALLY dissuading potential fans away from reading the books?
Even if you don't like the show, why are you being toxic to people who are going to start reading the books?
The "Netflix adaptation" memes exist for a reason.
Most of the time so many changes are made, from a different creative mind, that those who liked the original work for a specific set of reasons will most likely not find those same reasons in the new work. That's why they complain.
It’s a valid reason to complain. I’d be curious to see how many of the authors of things that have been adapted like what has become of their life’s work.
Hi there, i did not notice that Perrin's name is base on a slavic god Perun which as a slavic person myself is really cool.
I love how Brandon just glosses over Dan's salty remark that he gets paid 7 figures on his books.
Yes because what else can he say... rich ppl don't care about poor ppl or money remarks
I didn't really feel like it was that salty. It seemed light hearted to me.
@@christopherneedham9584 hmm it was really quite direct sharp salty & personal remark to me e.g. they gave only 20 50k to me for writing but ppl like you who get 700 000 won't understand etc
@@s7edgekat610 It's light hearted. When you've been best friends with a person for 30 years, bottled up issues like that don't come out and get ignored when you know you have a camera in your face.
It's part of a running joke between a group of friends. They have worked together and bounced off each other for years. #WritingExcuses
As a huge fan of the books, I am very impressed with the show. There's no way they could make it scene by scene. What they are doing with it is great 👍
no. You're wrong.
@@johnmclennan4255 true they could, but it would be very long and probably not capture the attention of people who have not read the books... Only thing I'm not enjoying is Loial...
@@caseycastaway7850 This is interesting to me. I see people who bash the show with vitriol say they like Loial (not the appearance per say but the actor and the performance)
At this point, I'd rather not see anything adapted to film or TV if the original work will simply be butchered for the 'mass audience', never mind all the nonsense hollywood seems to inject on their shows.
The story as told by the books is really good. Making all these massive changes to try and appeal to more audiences is basically saying, no the books are not good enough and we will make it 'better'.
This guy is like, "Well I've never read the series and don't give a shit about the lore, I don't get why the fans are so upset about it". You can see Brandon die a little inside when this guy tells him he's never read it.
I don't mind the plot sped up because well that a lot of ground to cover, but the amount of changes is just weird.
I've been very mindful of trying to avoid the stereotypical gut reaction to any form of change. I'm all too aware of how easy it is to slip into that reactionary resentment. Nonetheless, I have to confess that I am struggling to enjoy the show. I appreciate it's massively difficult to try and adapt this type of very long-form fantasy series for TV, but I can't force myself away from feeling that the heart of the books isn't there. Perhaps it's more fair to say, what resonates with me as being the heart or soul of the books is lacking.
I realise there's a great deal of irony in this, but I feel that too much is being done 'for show'. Most recently, Lan's theatrics at the end of episode 5 - this scene really lost me. It's such a complete diversion from the heart of the character, Lan is stoic to a fault, to the point of it being almost offensive at times. My discomfit with strange character deviations began with how Mat's parents were portrayed, I feel that it takes away from him as a character rather than build him up in any way. Fair enough, Emond's Field may not be as idyllic as The Shire, but I've countered that neither is it Tarren Ferry.
I can't help but feel it's the 'Game of Trones-ification' of The Wheel of Time, and I believe this intent is further demonstrated by the immediate push for large scale fight scenes with a lot of special effects, emulating some of the later Game of Thrones seasons. The over the top edginess of Valda is another symptom of this to me. It's too 'in your face'. The viewer isn't allowed to simply come to the conclusion that this group, despite claiming to support the Light, is morally and ethically corrupt, it has to be reinforced in a somewhat inelegant fashion that this fellow eats a little bird that cuts his own mouth, so he must be a bit of a hardcore freak. I think the portrayal of him burning a woman alive after cutting her hands off was sufficient, but having said that, I don't believe the books (and their heart / soul) are well served by this overtly grizzly approach in general. Of course, women who can channel would likely be tortured to death - this could well include said hand removal and burning. The difference lives in what Robert Jordan displayed explicitly, and what is left to the imagination or open to interpretation. Perrin killing his wife falls into this category too, it felt to like he couldn't just be Perrin, he had to be made 'edgy' Perrin.
I do not wish to detract from others' enjoyment of the show. This is one man's opinion, I'm not trying to sway or dissuade anyone, but I felt the need to express my feelings through some medium. Perhaps I should have written a letter and never sent it instead. I'm delighted for those who are enjoying it, I'll keep watching in the hopes that I can come around and enjoy it along with you, but there are yet a lot of hurdles to overcome.
These are pretty much my thoughts on the matter. Amazon wants "Their Game of Thrones" and picked a series that is just about as far away as you can be from Game of Thrones. The Wheel of Time books are almost prudish in comparison.
Lan is the embodiment of "Duty is heavier than a mountain, death is lighter than a feather." Giving him a scene where he is overtly grieving, especially in such an over-the-top manner, does not tell me "They are trying to get the 'core' of the characters"
People are free to love the show. I'm split on it, and I hope it gets better, but I really do think that they're going to end up writing themselves into a few corners with some of the changes that they've made.
the lan thing is a funerary tradition. they even say to him "take all of our grief" and he did, it was his duty to his fellow warders and stepin to grieve. i was on the fence too about lan showing that much emotion, but when you finally get why it was happening, it makes sense.
@@aviimax I think the situation is properly explained, and Lan's reaction in that regard make sense.
The issue I have is with the actual decision to have this scene exist in the first place. Focusing on Lan's emotions (especially in such a blunt and, you could argue, forced way) seems antithetical to the character in the books. If anything, I would expect this very situation that the show created to be used as a spotlight on how his stoicism can be harmful to both himself and those he cares about, presenting him as emotionless even when nothing is farther from the truth.
We shall see where this goes though!
@@aviimax It's not a tradition in the books. Sorry.
Can we please, please, just accept some people are not 1oo% enthusiastic about the show, and equally respect their opinions, instead of always, always, systematically, everywhere, "correct" them, explain to them why and how they're wrong? (When it doesn't simply escalate to slander, either political or in-world/ Darkfriends?)🤔
This has become unbearable.
It's a very unbecoming behavior, from a supposed very open and supportive fandom.
They're outright behaving just like Whitecloaks on Twitter of Time, (totally unaware- Reddit even blanket banning other fans belongings to the r: Whitecloaks/ another group with, for some, behavioral issues). They "out" people for expressing their own mind, honestly. They behave just like those two families in Emond's Field.
Thank you. This conversation is very helpful. I'm a book fan and at the same time am really enjoying the film version. I also had to go through a reality shift of sorts, but that became easier when I put myself into the place of someone who had never heard of the books. Now I appreciate what Rafe's done even more and can love the film for what it is rather than what a reader, mind set in stone, would want.
I love the fact that the Aruthurian legend for Nynave is Ni-nu-way ... which was how I had always pronounced her name in WoT. It is wonderful to be validated with my weird way of saying those names after what ? 15? 20 years back! :-D
Somehow, Nye-Neeve pronunciation is too "modern" for me.
As I heard of WOT series before reading it, that's how I read it now, but I find the Arthurian way, way more poetic and beautiful 🍃
I was disappointed that they felt they needed to give Perrin a wife.
And also they bypassed Rand and Mat's stop in Caemlyn.
With that said, I am enjoying the show. The actor who portrays Valda is amazing.
Nah . Perrin and his wife makes sense if you foreshadow his feelings in the books. The trip to Caemlyn isn’t really a big deal. You can mismatch those two events and have no real differences in plot.
Brandon offered Rafe with the option to kill Master Luhann...... I am not sure how I feel about that lol
Ive liked it so far and am ok with most of the changes. Main one that urks me though is the whole "we dont know if the dragon is a boy or a girl". reason being one of the whole reasons the dragon reborn is terifying is that the male half of the sorce is tainted.
The caemlyn stuff I think will be there in season 2
Caemlyn was axed due to budget. Will show up later, some characters already cast for Season 2.
The wife issue...Don't like it either. But is an easy (lazy) reason to explain some of his later actions and motivations. I wish, if he had to kill something while in a battle rage, it had been a pet or other family member.
Sanderson has not only castrated the end of the Saga, but his attempt at modernization has made the Three eunuchs. When he says the soul of the characters remains True, he declares himself Darkfriend. I weep for what was lost,...
Lol, well said
If you didn't see the Three kicking the hardest ass in the last book that any fictional character has ever kicked, I have literally no idea which last three WoT books you read, but clearly not the ones that were published. Yes, the fact that Sanderson is not Jordan is detectable in the books. Yes, there are specific things he either didn't pick up on or wrongly changed. But overwhelmingly he got right both the souls of the main characters and the soul of the series, and I am deeply, deeply grateful that it was him who finished writing it and not some grade school hack like Judkins.
A bit late to the party so to speak, but I for one refuse to believe someone who is a genuine fan of the books would make so many absolutely unneccesary and in many cases downright detrimental and world-building contradictionary changes to an adaptation. Sure, there were things I enjoyed about the show, but by the time I had finished watching the sixth episode it was obvious to me that this was not going to be the Wheel of Time I was reading when I grew up. That knowledge depressed me immensely.
I wanted it to start by feeling like a light hearted adventure in a nightmarish world. But it started going off when mat stole that first bracelet. He did pranks and got into trouble, he wasn't a thief though
LOL. Sanderson be cranking out the signatures while having in depth convos on WoT. Master class multi-tasker.
It feels good, as a hard core WoT fan, to hear Sanderson have many of the same opinions on the show as I do. I almost felt like a traitor to the books to like the changes in the show. At the end of the day, it is its own piece of art and I’m digging it.
Also, Perrin’s whole axe arc in the first episode, yeah that’s the one thing I’m ticked about. Could have happened to another character, but I’m gonna give it a chance
I have a feeling the perrin thing will make the whole arc with him and Faile a lot more compelling (e.g will do anything to save her)
@@jorgecollings33 and give him legitimate reasons to be so reserved, and scared of himself.
"You're not my real mom!" - So... Cadsuane. Gotcha. :)
I've been waiting for this for a long time.. I may not be happy that I get a direct book to screen adaptation. However I realize it would be boring hearing the same story for the umptilionth time. I am loving the show so far, I do have my problems with certain things being unclear through visual examination, while getting other forced explanations at unneeded times. It is what it is though, I do have a bias and a good base of knowledge already which just gives me an outside perspective and a chance to explore the changes I would make and where. This I really enjoy, because it allows for multiple turnings of the wheel to happen at the same time in my mind and on the screen. I'll watch till the end no matter the way it makes me feel lol I'm very glad I found this video and the perspective it gave me.
Thank you for publishing this episode before your spoiler stream next week. It will save so much time on the fans asking your opinion on the show during those streams.
Brandon, I appreciate you explaining how you had to view things to appreciate them as they are and not what I wanted. I had been having hard time suspending my frustration with the differences and not just enjoying a good adaptation. Interestingly enough that didn't happen with TLOTR
Or with Dune!!! Dune is filled with internal dialogue and yet this most recent film, even though it made changes, stuck true to the source material. It can be done. The way this show is headed I don’t see it making it to the end of the series. Viewership will die off in season 2 and I bet it gets cancelled after season 4.
Sorry Brandon, I’m 8min into the podcast and you say “I’m not worried about that” referring to book fans giving up on the tv adaptation or not supporting the project. Frankly, you should be worried and I’m absolutely flabbergasted as a fan to see the my one best chance at a live adaptation tossed in the trolloc cook pot… way to many concessions and unnecessary changes. I get appealing to a larger audience and diversifying aspects of the canon and yet trying to stay true to the story.. but did you really stay true? Burn me, I’m a dedicated fan and am genuinely appalled and utterly gutted over the disaster that is the WOT show. I pray to the Light that the next season retains more of the essence of the books. May you always find shade and water.
Brandon: "We're going to spoil a little"
Dan stares down the barrel of the camera: "....definitely"
XD
Love these podcasts!
Out of all the major changes the series is making, the fact that Sanderson's biggest beef is with creating then killing Perrin's wife is encouraging to me. After the first couple episodes I was really afraid that they would try to homogenize the genders with regard to the one power, eliminating saidin vs. saidar, and allowing the Dragon Reborn to be a different character. But that would change SO MUCH in the plot that I don't see how it could be even a spiritual adaptation of the book. It would be a completely new story. Perrin's wife is merely a change in motivation, and if that's the biggest problem, then I'm excited for where this can go.
In the 4th Origin video they talk about saidin and saidar so that is definitely sticking.
@@edwardguest1404 Oh yeah, for sure. I'm just saying the line "we don't know if it's going to be a boy or a girl" reeeeeally made me nervous.
I was worried they would supplant Rand as the Dragon Reborn originally, especially after who knows it might be a woman thing. Thinking back it was kinda silly because they make it know Rand is Aiel really quick and the Herron Marked blade so that seems to suggest it will stay Rand. I dont mind the show, I don't like some of the changes but I still want it to succeed.
@@wind_runner6836 I was worried because when Nynaeve killed the trolloc in the pool, the blood formed the Dragon's Fang, and then in the episode called "The Dragon Reborn," they had Moiraine say that the power of the Dragon was like the raging sun in comparison to Logain's candle. Then, when Nynaeve channeled, healing everyone, Logain whispered "the power of the sun!"
I was like, OK. I know Nynaeve is powerful and all, but don't change the Dragon. That's too much. Reading Rafe's AMAs on twitter and Reddit and listening to Sanderson talk about it (especially his contract not having a no-disparagement clause) really helped me feel better about the series.
@@calebschaaf1555 it's to stretch out the mystery, which they've made a big deal for the show. It's been relatively effective for new watchers
I'd personally rather have Robert Jordan's story brought to the screen instead of Rafe Judkin's story brought to the screen. Robert Jordan's story is one of the most famous fantasy series in the world for a reason. I don't like that they're cutting stuff from the real story, and adding fluff that never happens in the real story (like the sad warder arc).
That said, I'm enjoying the show more than I thought I would, and the actors are doing a good job embracing the soul of the characters.
My way of getting past some of the more jaring changes is that this is a a different turning of the wheel found by travelling through a portal stone.
I've always felt that's just a cop out. Why should I care about a story because it has the surface similarities to something I enjoy, should that be a reason enough? No, I enjoyed WoT and if you're fundamentally changing big things and doing your own story then I treat it as a new story. After the first half of the first episode I just found the show boring and forgettable. Same with MCU or the Watch series, the more they just use names for the sake of using names that are familiar the less relevant the content is because at some point you're obviously just trying to ride on a previous success instead of trying to make a good thing on its own.
@@Draugo damn right Draugo.
Hell yea Brandon giving a shoutout to the Writer's union.
I am just so fascinated with seeing iconic characters and places that I only pictured in my mind. The threads of The One Power, The White Tower and Loial...so incredible to finally see.
This. The story is butchered but just the names icons etc good to see