17:40 One thing to note about the BSL local and express is they use 5 Car sets which is pretty unique in North America. Another little fact about the BSL is during rush when locals return to fern rock from south philly, they turn into expresses and vice versa.
PATCO is to Philly what PATH is to New York, but proportionately smaller. They exist due to the massive legal headaches of trying to fund one thing in different two states.
Pretty much. Thought was given to having SEPTA run the new Lindenwold line under contract to the Port Authority. But they ultimately decided to run it themselves.
Probably better than Atlanta’s. MARTA’s rail system may all be of uniform build/standards, but it doesn’t really have the best route coverage; certainly worse than Philly’s.
Philadelphia reminds me so much of Baltimore, but with better transit and less vacant rowhomes. Baltimore is probably the smallest metro area with true heavy rail/rapid-transit underground through downtown, but the lack of quality connections really holds it back, and that's where SEPTA's/PATCO's RT system really shines. Baltimore has a light rail line in addition to the subway but is was built on the cheap and avoids downtown and a convenient downtown connection to the subway (the Lexington Market connection is as bad as the MFL-Amtrak connection at 30th St). The light rail is really only useful if you already live near the line and are going to a Ravens or O's game, the airport, or connecting between the MARC terminals. Hopefully the East-West Red Line still gets built and gives the city true transit connectivity.
@@jec20721 Bmore is awful for public transportation, lightrail goes no where to almost no where following the old heavy rail lines in thr outter ends. The connection to penn station is too unreliable to be practically used. I lived there for years and never been on the subway because im always too scared because of all the crime. Bmore desperately needs the light rail to be improved and expanded with another line fully serving penn if the shuttle isnt goung to be a constant.
I'm spending the weekend in Philadelphia, and the only description I can muster for the rapid transit is "adequate." I appreciate that it operates on a shoestring budget, and I understand that many cities in the US would love to have so extensive a system or indeed any system at all, but I have a hard time praising the system after waiting more than fifteen minutes for an L train three times in a row.
Villanova might be slightly closer, or at least safer for obvious reasons, to make a connection to the Paoli/Thorndale line-which kind of cuts service in two with only the 92 being the only other services besides the NHSL/M to cross the tracks. Like a service from Villanova to KOP Mall. Basically the bus would kind of serve the same purpose as the KOP branch, but be closer to good generators in Villanova/Cabrini University, Eastern University, Valley Forge Military Academy, McKraig Nature Center, the memorial gardens near the Home Depot, the Our Bus/Greyhound station (also Cross County or branch of Manayunk/Norristown line potential), Mall stuff (the new Netlfix thing will vibe with college kids), plus limited or future extension to serve the Casino, the Valley Forge Welcome Center, Port Kennedy Station (should it reopen), and perhaps to the Autobahn Society just across the river (maybe just take to the Expo Center at that point)
I also would be down for extending the M to Landsdale to reduce branching (only to the KOP Park & Ride and Pottstown) keeping Main St and Elm St then serve Elmwood Park (for zoo, walk-up statio), Germantown Pike (East Norriton, rt 90), Whitepain (park & ride on North Wales rd by power station), Acorn, Merck/West Point (possible walk-up station), Landsdale-Hancock St (walk-up station), Landsdale-Main St (RR, busses). I initially envisioned it possibly also just being more cross-county like, but charging at Norristown and Landsdale Yard
@@history_leisure I had that crazy idea of extending the NHSL/M Line to Lansdale if restoring Regional Rail service between Norristown & Lansdale is infeasible for some reason. But the track is still there so its likely cheaper to just refurbish & electrify it. However im no rail expert or an employee at the FRA.
What a great look at the lines! Fun fact: PATCO TVMs used to give cheap (I can't recall the price) paper transfers to SEPTA. It had essentially two pieces of receipt paper with one timed within an hour of purchase and one within 24 hours (if purchasing a round trip). I believe that was eliminated at the time of the Freedom Share Card, but could be used on any subway, bus, or trolley. The Freedom Share Card is nice in that it allows electronic transfers to the same modes via card reader at the Key price, though it is becoming less needed as long as one has the ability for phone/card tap payments. The PATCO fare kiosks are slated to be modernized by Fall of next year, and they've stated they will be able to accept Freedom Cards and tap options. They're also saying paper magnetic stripe tickets will be retired in place of limited-use smart tickets.
Sorry, don't know why this posted twice. I do like my Apple devices, but sometimes iOS and posting comments on this app just don't seem to interoperate correctly
@ not necessarily. Even the current Freedom Card system allows you to refill completely via TVM, although it does also have a website account option for automatic refill
I can see all the work and thought that has gone into this great review of Philly Rapid transit. It reminded me how much we lost when Budd Company went out of business. Looking forward to your next part of this series!
I’ve always thought of the rail systems in Boston and Philadelphia to be fairly similar, with an extensive regional/commuter system to the far suburbs and a hodgepodge of different subway/light rail lines in the core areas. The Market-Frankford, Broad Street, and PATCO lines are like the Red, Blue, and Orange Lines of the T, in that they were all built by different groups to different standards and are generally incompatible on each other. The Green Line somewhat resembles the subway-surface and trolley lines in Philadelphia. And the Norristown High-Speed Line has a Boston counterpart between Ashmont and Mattapan, even if they’re of different lengths. You could probably compare Philadelphia and Boston in many ways, ranging from historical significance to each’s relationship with New York. Also that Ben Franklin was born and raised in Boston but lived his adult life in Philadelphia.
Riding the El was always a fun experience for me. Even now, I prefer taking a bus to Frankford, the El to 69th street, and then taking a trolley as opposed to taking the Media/Wawa line. I'm still rooting for the Roosevelt Blvd Subway as well, but I doubt it will ever be implemented.
PATCO is the best riding experience, but the BSL is the most useful day-day as a center city Philadelphian. But when we all can agree, they all really need extra funding, care and extension
*BSL opened between Olney and City Hall on Sept 1, 1928. It was extended to: Walnut-Locust in 1930 Lombard-South in 1932 8th-Market in 1932 Snyder in 1938 NRG (fmr Pattison) in 1973
*Express tracks run to just south of Walnut-Locust station where the local tracks swing to the east side of Broad St for a 2-track setup to NRG. This last part was because the city didn't think Express service was warranted when the extension was built in the 30s, yet they left the west side of Broad St empty in case the tracks were ever extended southward.
What's weird to me is how small the Philly subway system is. Just two major lines, one branch and one "end section" of a suburban line... Ignoring the Roosevelt Blvd. plan at the end, does this really meet the city's demand? It seems far too little for a city of Philly's size, and with the regional/suburban rail being so infrequent a lot of times, surely it can't step up to the plate to act as a metro replacement, right?
Unfortunately, Philly in general has a lot of unmet potential. It could be a world class transit and cycling city if the priority of the state and many local politicians wasn’t solely on cars.
Much of the "missing" sections not served by metro transit could be dealt with by increasing frequency on regional rail lines in the city and making fares more affordable.
To be fair, Philly is really dense. While it could definitely be better, the subway lines definitely serve a huge majority of the community. Besides them, you have the trolley lines as well, which are still pretty fast. I've never had a problem getting around, there are a few underserved areas though, mainly Northeast Philly.
im new to philly, and ive always loved public transit, so its really nice to learn how to get around and how things came to be around here through the tunnels haha. i hope i get to run into you making one of your vids!
*PATCO east of Broadway was originally part of the Penn-Reading Seashore Lines (PRSL) line from Camden to AC and Cape May. When PATCO opened, DRPA rebuilt the line and separated the former line from the PRSL line to Philly via the Delair Bridge (now NJT AC Rail Line) in 1966-1968 and opening in early 1969.
A number of years ago we visited Philly, but did not want to stay on the Pensy side of the Delaware as we were also planning to visit friends in NJ. So we stayed at a hotel a few miles from the PATCO line and drove to a PATCO station to get into Philly. First time using PATCO and I was very impressed. As you said, it's more like a regional rail line than a subway.
The SEPTA Key card doesn't work on PATCO, but you can get a version of the PATCO Freedom card that works on most of SEPTA (it doesn't work on SEPTA regional rail). Make it make sense.
In the early 80s, one aunt and uncle lived in the Langhorne area (minutes from Sesame Place… like halfway between Oxford Valley Mall and Neshaminy Mall). They’d come to my grandparents (who lived next door to us) in SJ for Thanksgiving. and on Broke Friday we’d hop in their van and drive to the PATCO Lindenwold station. I remember the weird magnetic ticket system where you’d insert it at one end and then when you go through the turnstile the ticket would pop out the other end. We’d take the PATCO to 8th & Market and shop at Strawbridge’s and the Gallery. Then walk a block or so to Wanamaker for the light show set to their massive organ. Nutcracker themed , right? PATCO, Atari VCS/2600 and video games in general, Grecian Forumula commercials, Rubik’s cube, E.T. , TRON , CBS Special Presentations. Those were the days!
Just wanted to share a fun fact, there used to be a connection (some of the tracks are still there, but they don't connect) between the BSL and regional rail at fern rock. I believe when we got the B3 (or maybe the BIV cars?) the manufacturer delivered them at a regional rail stop and the trains were run down the track and then transferred to fern rock. You can see the connection after going around the loop at fern rock when you can see the RR station to your right. Right before the train turns, you can see some tracks. Also, Pattinson was originally "Hoyt St". There used to be a Hoyt St one block north of Pattinson and FDR (league island park) used to go up to Hoyt St instead of stopping at Pattison. In the early 1900s, a lot of the streets were demolished (more like not built) and the current setup was built.
As someone who lives in Philly and relies on SEPTA for work and leisure, I appreciate it for what it is, but am constantly advocating for the city and to dedicate more resources to it. Philly is so poor and many of its politicians and residents are very car-brained, but despite those things it does have a lot going for it.
I will say the Norristown line is a modern suburban line but i completely understand why you grouped it. Although is more like the subway surface lines technically speaking, its not looked like that from the public or most fans ive noticed. 5” 2.5’ isnt PA trolley gauge, Its PA Standard gauge. WMTA 7ks are Kawasaki built. Great video tho! Even i, learned something 😂
Best thing about SEPTA once I turned 65 it was free because part of the Pa lottery profits pay for that. Took lazy foot dragging SEPTA ten weeks to mail my card. Rode it free to work for over two years until retiring. Nogoodnics made my 95 year old mother have two people carry her out of her house to have to go to SEPTA 13 th & Market office to have her picture taken to get a pass to be able to ride para transit to doctors office. She never got to use the card she passed short time later.
I have ridden all the lines shown in this video. I grew up in southwest Philadelphia so I rode both the subway serface trolleys as well as the el regularly. In college as well as my job in the city I latter rode both the el and the Broad Street Subway as well as using it to get to the Phillies baseball games on many weekends. As mentioned the Market Frankford el had the most problems. There would be a long delay and then three or more trains running right together. I ocassionaly rode the Broad Ridge spur to get to 8th and Market street from the north. As for PATCO I used to ride it back in the day when the Pennsylvania-Reading Railroad had RDC commuter rail service to the various New Jersey shore towns. It Terminated at that time at Lindenwald where you had to change to get to Philadelphia. It was fast and comfortable but you always had to worry about making your connection especially when leaving Philadelphia for your train connection at Lindenwald. Of course you now have that as an option since New Jersey Transit reestablished through train service to 30th street station in Philadelphia. I also got to ride the Norristown high speed line during my college days when I had a job on Lancaster Pike and rode to Villanova to transfer to a bus to get to my job. It was both fast and comfortable and usually was reliable.
TLDR; I only rode SEPTA's three rapid transit line once & overall they're fine and gets the job done. Apart from the Norristown High Speed Line, was slowed down to 55mph due to an accident, & wish it could be returned to 70mph but may try an limited train someday Long version: I have rode the BSL once, two years ago (2022) from NRG to City Hall & its overall fine. Stations do feel sketchy but I can imagine after all the cleaning it'll be worry free. The train gives off massive 70s vibes likely due to the orange motif but have enough space to accommodate my one luggage as the intercity bus driver changed drop off to NRG than the original Fashion District. Later I rode the NHSL + MFL for the first time this year (Can't you tell im new to all of this?) from Norristown (NHSL) to 11th Street (MFL) because I missed the regional train. First thing I'll say about the NHSL, oh boy its slow & I wish it travel at its original 70mph instead of 55mph but other than that, its cheaper & frequent than Regional. Might try an limited service train tho to change my opinons. As for the MFL, felt more modern like the NYC subway trains than the BSL but without the digital signage. However I do agree its pretty loud & more compacted than the BSL or NYC. Felt faster than the NHSL likely due to stops being closer & generally more urbanized as I get to Center City.
Oh and I have no opinions about PATCO as I never ridden one in my entire life so far due to the destinations being less than stellar & not knowing anyone in NJ.
I took both the El and the BSL on the Wednesday before thanksgiving and I was worried it might be sus but it was fine both times. I actually somewhat liked the less fancy (I’m used to the DC Metro) vibes.
@sammymarrco47 They really are better than a lot of people give them credit for, but the presentation is one of the things that drags it down. Funny enough, I was on the DC Metro just before Thanksgiving, and it's presentation is undeniably great. Even in a lot of discussions I've had with people around here about transit, they always cite the DC Metro as something to aspire to. An extreme example maybe, we dont need to recreate the DC Metro here, but just making the stations a tad bit nicer and more polished could go a long way here. Maybe those new trails for the El could be the catalyst we need.
@@SteveGettingAroundPhillyyeah I used 2nd street station and it was actually clean, NRG and Gerard weren’t that bad either. I would like to see countdown clocks on the BSL though.
The el and the sub are usually pretty chill. It was at its worse (imo) during covid but has gotten better in the years since. Ofc you'll never get rid of the craziness that can occur at times but I think it just adds the experience when you can look back and laugh at it.
I’ve always disliked the Washington metro, but I’m in the vast minority. But it goes to show you just how much cleanliness and aesthetics matter to people.
The one thing you could have Don't explain, it's why there's a difference between the gauges of the Market Frankford Line and the Broad Street Line. The Market Frankfort Line being built by PRT predecessor of SEPTA. With the Broad Street Line being built by the Cuty of Philadelphia. Also on the Norristown high Speed Line is you failed to mention connections at 69th Street with the 101 Media and 102 Sharon Hill trolley. Also on PATCO didn't mention connections with NJT River Line in Camden.
The reasons vary but it mostly has to do with when they were built. The Market Frankford line being first was built using the PA trolley gauge due to it possibly being used for through service with Red Arrow trolley lines that served, West Chester, Media, Sharon Hill and Ardmore at the time. The two private transit companies never could come to any agreement so that is why there is a large transit terminal at 69th street and Market street in Upper Darby. The Norristown High Speed Line was built as the Philadelphia and Western Railroad and was envisioned as a high speed interurban that was envisioned to serve much further west than Stratford where it originally terminated next to the Pennsylvania Railroad station at the same town. The city of Philadelphia built the Broad Street Subway and leased it to the private transit company to operate it. Even today the subway and even some of the cars are actually owned by the city. Why it is standard railroad track gage is most likely because of the convience of being able to buy off the shelf subway cars from various manufactures. Over the years they bought their old cars from different companies but could be run together. As noted except for special occasions the operate one set from Kawasaki.
It a perfect example of how a transit system should be built. Streetcars provide local service that is easier to access. It stops in more places. Heavy Rail provides "Express" and super express services. They stop in fewer places. Commuter rail provides limited service in the city, but it is still accessible for many city residences. Unfortunately, it is the only one that is built out to serve more areas. Buses have to take up the slack in many more areas. This is the case in the majority of cities unfortunately. The EL particularly is the most attractive because of the cost to build and the fact it does not compete with street traffic unlike street running rail service. All in all, every single system have a particular purpose and that makes Philadelphia attractive. But there just need to more streetcar, subway and elevated routes.
You forgot about Paris metro shuttle line which operated as GoA2 ATO in the early 1950's with MP51 trains, the prototype of rubber tyred metros. Philadelphia's transit system seems like a bit of a hodgepodge. Wouldn't they gain from standardizing a little? A dual track rapid transit line should not be prone to bus replacements, it should just work.
The BSL terminus being called NRG Station and similar sponsored naming will forever anger me. Stations are not stadiums. They should be named in accordance to what they serve. If you are going to offer sponsorships for station names, it should be a requirement that there at least be a physical presence of the sponsor within walking distance of the station. This is why I don't mind Jefferson Station so much, that at least indicates Jefferson Hospital is nearby. But there's no "NRG" to go to. Even more annoying if you have tourists who are in town for a game.
It really isn't that bad. More frequent service would help on the regional rail as well as a way to combat the homelessness on the MFL & BSL. Oh and they need to bring back A & B stops on the MFL!!
The KOP was not stupid at all and definitely would've helped take passengers off the slow expressway buses and would allow folks that live in West Philly and Delco to access King of Prussia way faster than going all the way into the city to catch a bus back up to KOP or catching the 123 bus up the Blue Route. Plus, all the buses tend to get delayed with traffic as well. Offering the Manayunk line as an alternative does nothing good for people out west who would have to go all the way downtown to get to it. Plus, the fares are more expensive, the line is only 2 tracks with a ton of stops along the way (vs the few stops on the NHSL that are mainly flag stops), and is subject to flooding along its river routing. So no, the KOP extension was not a bad idea at all. What made it not work were the NIMBYs along the route who opposed it despite not even being riders of the line yet they frequent the mall whose workers would use the line to get there. Very bad take.
Another great video. My only negative comment would be that when you put you put up a in-video comment card, you don’t leave enough time for it to be read. Like the one right after your Tim Hortons comment.
Philly got a good system for it population. Especially when you compare it to Dallas and Houston, which runs light rail. Any subway or elevated line would always rank higher. And Atlanta MARTA, which is only a subway elevated system that serves fewer stations. Minus the almost none existent light rail line. Than we got Cleveland who tried to create what Philly has with must less success! Even Philadelphia has something NYC doesn't have: Thorough running service on it commuter lines. Philly Septa trains are faster than New York City Subway trains, which are slowest in the Nation. And NJ Transit commuter trains. But the infrastructure around some of Septa lines are very lack. Like certain stations resembling bus stops. But overall, Philly wins hands down.
broad street line is significantly better than the L… no hate to the L but as a young, short woman i have genuinely experienced bad things on the L and i only rly try to take it with other people…
Fare evasion is not a problem. Fares are. Public transit should be free, there’s no reason you should have to pay for it when it’s already government subsidized anyway.
The Philadelphia Subway is so pathetic that I, a New Yorker, would complement Chicago over that, and the Chicago "L" is called that for a reason. Edit: Oh also IDK if it's more pathetic that your Rapid Transit almost goes as far as your Commuter Rail or your Commuter Rail only goes a bit past your Rapid Transit system.
wow ok… Philly is smaller than NYC and Chicago, and it’s fine for SEPTA to be smaller bc it serves fewer people. Expansions would be nice, but expecting something like those cities is unrealistic in Philly. “L” is not some trademarked term or anything. It’s literally just short for “elevated” which makes a lot of sense for the MFL. More than one city can have an “L” lol. We just only call one line the “L” instead of the whole system. It’s like if the (7) in NYC was nicknamed the “L” Your comment about the commuter rail literally makes no sense lol. Regional rail and goes to places like Delaware, Thorndale, Doylestown, and Trenton. The AC line goes all the way to Atlantic City. The rapid transit goes nowhere near those places. Clearly you (a New Yorker) think what city you’re from makes you better than other people for some reason. You’re just saying things that aren’t even true. Come actually visit Philly sometime. While our transit could use more funding, our city is great and you’d probably enjoy it more than you think
Besides the fact that that New York City Subway seems to be 70% Elevated, Maybe instead of putting down our system how about focus on the fact that someone is constantly getting stabbed or pushed on the tracks on your Subway system oh by the way how is the prevention of Subway surfing turning out? Just so you understand Yes we have an EL it's called the Market Frankford Subway Elevated Line. You guys do have a huge system just like you guys constantly have huge delays, power outages as well as consistent floods in your subways.
@calinahernandez6775 60% of the NYC Subway is underground which means 40% is open air, which includes Els, Embankments, Surface Level, and Open Cut tracks. Also I was joking about "There's a reason they call it the"L", That was more referring to how NYC calls them "El's" but Chicago and Philadelphia call them "L's". I do have to give Philly props for having the second ever Automatic Transit line in the world. I will also complement Chicago on the Engineering of Tower 18, and just wondering, is Tower 18 the Chicago version of DeKalb, Rogers, or 59th street junction? Edit: Maybe the 70% you got included the now destroyed Els on 9th, 6th, 3rd, 2nd, Lexington, Myrtle, Fulton, and Culver?
Originally from North Jersey here. I have never ridden on SEPTA (Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority). The PATCO (Port Authority Transportation Corporation) is the equivalent to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey’s PATH (Port Authority Trans Hudson) system in some respects. 🚆😃👍 FYI - Regarding Tim Hortons: I live in Manville Borough in Somerset County, New Jersey (about 60 miles northeast of Philadelphia/Center City). The closest full service Tim Hortons in central New Jersey is in nearby Raritan Borough. Love Tim Hortons! 🍩☕😃👍
There are three Tim Hortons locations in the state of Georgia: one in Atlanta, one in Fairburn (suburb of Atlanta) and one in Columbus (where I’m from). I don’t know why the Columbus location exists save maybe for all the veterans who really liked it in Canada or the northern US. Columbus’s main economic driver is the large Army installation to its south.
What a great look at the lines! Fun fact: PATCO TVMs used to give cheap (I can't recall the price) paper transfers to SEPTA. It had essentially two pieces of receipt paper with one timed within an hour of purchase and one within 24 hours (if purchasing a round trip). I believe that was eliminated at the time of the Freedom Share Card, but could be used on any subway, bus, or trolley. The Freedom Share Card is nice in that it allows electronic transfers to the same modes via card reader at the Key price, though it is becoming less needed as long as one has the ability for phone/card tap payments. The PATCO fare kiosks are slated to be modernized by Fall of next year, and they've stated they will be able to accept Freedom Cards and tap options. They're also saying paper magnetic stripe tickets will be retired in place of limited-use smart tickets.
17:40 One thing to note about the BSL local and express is they use 5 Car sets which is pretty unique in North America. Another little fact about the BSL is during rush when locals return to fern rock from south philly, they turn into expresses and vice versa.
PATCO is to Philly what PATH is to New York, but proportionately smaller. They exist due to the massive legal headaches of trying to fund one thing in different two states.
Pretty much. Thought was given to having SEPTA run the new Lindenwold line under contract to the Port Authority. But they ultimately decided to run it themselves.
@@PhillyBagel
Interesting considering that the line originally belonged to PRT/PTC before DRPA took it over.
PATCO actually is longer than PATH and is about to have more stations than PATH. PATH has way more riders, though.
its better than people may think
Probably better than Atlanta’s.
MARTA’s rail system may all be of uniform build/standards, but it doesn’t really have the best route coverage; certainly worse than Philly’s.
Don't let your wife or girlfriend take the El. (If you care about them.)
It's completely fine? As long as you keep your business and dont take it in the dead of night its perfectly aight.@CarlGerhardt1
Philadelphia reminds me so much of Baltimore, but with better transit and less vacant rowhomes. Baltimore is probably the smallest metro area with true heavy rail/rapid-transit underground through downtown, but the lack of quality connections really holds it back, and that's where SEPTA's/PATCO's RT system really shines.
Baltimore has a light rail line in addition to the subway but is was built on the cheap and avoids downtown and a convenient downtown connection to the subway (the Lexington Market connection is as bad as the MFL-Amtrak connection at 30th St). The light rail is really only useful if you already live near the line and are going to a Ravens or O's game, the airport, or connecting between the MARC terminals.
Hopefully the East-West Red Line still gets built and gives the city true transit connectivity.
@@jec20721 Bmore is awful for public transportation, lightrail goes no where to almost no where following the old heavy rail lines in thr outter ends. The connection to penn station is too unreliable to be practically used. I lived there for years and never been on the subway because im always too scared because of all the crime. Bmore desperately needs the light rail to be improved and expanded with another line fully serving penn if the shuttle isnt goung to be a constant.
@@OperatorLogan Fully agreed!
I agree that the El needs improvement but as someone who grew up next to it and was fascinated by it its still my favorite line.
Lets see how very useful this video will be to me next week when I travel to Philly next week visiting my bestie!
I'm spending the weekend in Philadelphia, and the only description I can muster for the rapid transit is "adequate." I appreciate that it operates on a shoestring budget, and I understand that many cities in the US would love to have so extensive a system or indeed any system at all, but I have a hard time praising the system after waiting more than fifteen minutes for an L train three times in a row.
#@andrew...Ray: Chicago's CTA trains run more than half the time than the SEPTA L TRAINS run. I'd say no more than 5 minutes wait most of the time.
22:50 the fare is now $2.50 for key card as well, and transfers are free as long as they are made up to 2 hours after the previous one.
Yeah, shows how late I was getting this out there. I'll definitely be mentioning that in my next SEPTA vid for sure.
Villanova might be slightly closer, or at least safer for obvious reasons, to make a connection to the Paoli/Thorndale line-which kind of cuts service in two with only the 92 being the only other services besides the NHSL/M to cross the tracks. Like a service from Villanova to KOP Mall. Basically the bus would kind of serve the same purpose as the KOP branch, but be closer to good generators in Villanova/Cabrini University, Eastern University, Valley Forge Military Academy, McKraig Nature Center, the memorial gardens near the Home Depot, the Our Bus/Greyhound station (also Cross County or branch of Manayunk/Norristown line potential), Mall stuff (the new Netlfix thing will vibe with college kids), plus limited or future extension to serve the Casino, the Valley Forge Welcome Center, Port Kennedy Station (should it reopen), and perhaps to the Autobahn Society just across the river (maybe just take to the Expo Center at that point)
I also would be down for extending the M to Landsdale to reduce branching (only to the KOP Park & Ride and Pottstown) keeping Main St and Elm St then serve Elmwood Park (for zoo, walk-up statio), Germantown Pike (East Norriton, rt 90), Whitepain (park & ride on North Wales rd by power station), Acorn, Merck/West Point (possible walk-up station), Landsdale-Hancock St (walk-up station), Landsdale-Main St (RR, busses). I initially envisioned it possibly also just being more cross-county like, but charging at Norristown and Landsdale Yard
@@history_leisure I had that crazy idea of extending the NHSL/M Line to Lansdale if restoring Regional Rail service between Norristown & Lansdale is infeasible for some reason.
But the track is still there so its likely cheaper to just refurbish & electrify it. However im no rail expert or an employee at the FRA.
13:32 I wish that subway network was fully built
What a great look at the lines!
Fun fact: PATCO TVMs used to give cheap (I can't recall the price) paper transfers to SEPTA. It had essentially two pieces of receipt paper with one timed within an hour of purchase and one within 24 hours (if purchasing a round trip). I believe that was eliminated at the time of the Freedom Share Card, but could be used on any subway, bus, or trolley.
The Freedom Share Card is nice in that it allows electronic transfers to the same modes via card reader at the Key price, though it is becoming less needed as long as one has the ability for phone/card tap payments.
The PATCO fare kiosks are slated to be modernized by Fall of next year, and they've stated they will be able to accept Freedom Cards and tap options. They're also saying paper magnetic stripe tickets will be retired in place of limited-use smart tickets.
Sorry, don't know why this posted twice. I do like my Apple devices, but sometimes iOS and posting comments on this app just don't seem to interoperate correctly
@@TheHungryTransitFanWouldn’t they need an app of some kind to use a smart ticket?
@ not necessarily. Even the current Freedom Card system allows you to refill completely via TVM, although it does also have a website account option for automatic refill
I can see all the work and thought that has gone into this great review of Philly Rapid transit. It reminded me how much we lost when Budd Company went out of business. Looking forward to your next part of this series!
Great Video As Always! Enjoy the new computer too!!
I’ve always thought of the rail systems in Boston and Philadelphia to be fairly similar, with an extensive regional/commuter system to the far suburbs and a hodgepodge of different subway/light rail lines in the core areas.
The Market-Frankford, Broad Street, and PATCO lines are like the Red, Blue, and Orange Lines of the T, in that they were all built by different groups to different standards and are generally incompatible on each other. The Green Line somewhat resembles the subway-surface and trolley lines in Philadelphia. And the Norristown High-Speed Line has a Boston counterpart between Ashmont and Mattapan, even if they’re of different lengths.
You could probably compare Philadelphia and Boston in many ways, ranging from historical significance to each’s relationship with New York. Also that Ben Franklin was born and raised in Boston but lived his adult life in Philadelphia.
Riding the El was always a fun experience for me. Even now, I prefer taking a bus to Frankford, the El to 69th street, and then taking a trolley as opposed to taking the Media/Wawa line. I'm still rooting for the Roosevelt Blvd Subway as well, but I doubt it will ever be implemented.
PATCO is the best riding experience, but the BSL is the most useful day-day as a center city Philadelphian. But when we all can agree, they all really need extra funding, care and extension
*BSL opened between Olney and City Hall on Sept 1, 1928.
It was extended to:
Walnut-Locust in 1930
Lombard-South in 1932
8th-Market in 1932
Snyder in 1938
NRG (fmr Pattison) in 1973
*Express tracks run to just south of Walnut-Locust station where the local tracks swing to the east side of Broad St for a 2-track setup to NRG. This last part was because the city didn't think Express service was warranted when the extension was built in the 30s, yet they left the west side of Broad St empty in case the tracks were ever extended southward.
What's weird to me is how small the Philly subway system is. Just two major lines, one branch and one "end section" of a suburban line...
Ignoring the Roosevelt Blvd. plan at the end, does this really meet the city's demand? It seems far too little for a city of Philly's size, and with the regional/suburban rail being so infrequent a lot of times, surely it can't step up to the plate to act as a metro replacement, right?
Unfortunately, Philly in general has a lot of unmet potential. It could be a world class transit and cycling city if the priority of the state and many local politicians wasn’t solely on cars.
Much of the "missing" sections not served by metro transit could be dealt with by increasing frequency on regional rail lines in the city and making fares more affordable.
Philly is a strange place. They will build a sports stadium in a heartbeat. The first true skyscraper came in the 90s
To be fair, Philly is really dense. While it could definitely be better, the subway lines definitely serve a huge majority of the community. Besides them, you have the trolley lines as well, which are still pretty fast. I've never had a problem getting around, there are a few underserved areas though, mainly Northeast Philly.
Yes the bus and trolley lines feed into the 2 subways
im new to philly, and ive always loved public transit, so its really nice to learn how to get around and how things came to be around here through the tunnels haha. i hope i get to run into you making one of your vids!
*PATCO east of Broadway was originally part of the Penn-Reading Seashore Lines (PRSL) line from Camden to AC and Cape May. When PATCO opened, DRPA rebuilt the line and separated the former line from the PRSL line to Philly via the Delair Bridge (now NJT AC Rail Line) in 1966-1968 and opening in early 1969.
A number of years ago we visited Philly, but did not want to stay on the Pensy side of the Delaware as we were also planning to visit friends in NJ. So we stayed at a hotel a few miles from the PATCO line and drove to a PATCO station to get into Philly. First time using PATCO and I was very impressed. As you said, it's more like a regional rail line than a subway.
The SEPTA Key card doesn't work on PATCO, but you can get a version of the PATCO Freedom card that works on most of SEPTA (it doesn't work on SEPTA regional rail). Make it make sense.
I’ve taken the PATCO to that Tim Hortons plenty of times
In the early 80s, one aunt and uncle lived in the Langhorne area (minutes from Sesame Place… like halfway between Oxford Valley Mall and Neshaminy Mall). They’d come to my grandparents (who lived next door to us) in SJ for Thanksgiving.
and on Broke Friday we’d hop in their van and drive to the PATCO Lindenwold station. I remember the weird magnetic ticket system where you’d insert it at one end and then when you go through the turnstile the ticket would pop out the other end. We’d take the PATCO to 8th & Market and shop at Strawbridge’s and the Gallery. Then walk a block or so to Wanamaker for the light show set to their massive organ. Nutcracker themed , right?
PATCO, Atari VCS/2600 and video games in general, Grecian Forumula commercials, Rubik’s cube, E.T. , TRON , CBS Special Presentations. Those were the days!
Just wanted to share a fun fact, there used to be a connection (some of the tracks are still there, but they don't connect) between the BSL and regional rail at fern rock. I believe when we got the B3 (or maybe the BIV cars?) the manufacturer delivered them at a regional rail stop and the trains were run down the track and then transferred to fern rock. You can see the connection after going around the loop at fern rock when you can see the RR station to your right. Right before the train turns, you can see some tracks.
Also, Pattinson was originally "Hoyt St". There used to be a Hoyt St one block north of Pattinson and FDR (league island park) used to go up to Hoyt St instead of stopping at Pattison. In the early 1900s, a lot of the streets were demolished (more like not built) and the current setup was built.
That was used for mow crews when they needed to bring something to fern rock it used to be a tank car & a flat car sitting there before they moved it
Oh & the Biv cars came by truck to fern Rock then they used a crane to put them on the tracks
Pattison was never called Hoyt St.
It was only built to serve the Sports Complex in 1971.
Before that, the line ended at Snyder from 1938-1971.
I use the Norristown HSL and The L combo as a cheaper way to get to CC. I used to use the R6 at Conshy but it simply doesn't run often enough.
Amaazing video
As someone who lives in Philly and relies on SEPTA for work and leisure, I appreciate it for what it is, but am constantly advocating for the city and to dedicate more resources to it. Philly is so poor and many of its politicians and residents are very car-brained, but despite those things it does have a lot going for it.
I will say the Norristown line is a modern suburban line but i completely understand why you grouped it. Although is more like the subway surface lines technically speaking, its not looked like that from the public or most fans ive noticed. 5” 2.5’ isnt PA trolley gauge, Its PA Standard gauge. WMTA 7ks are Kawasaki built. Great video tho! Even i, learned something 😂
Best thing about SEPTA once I turned 65 it was free because part of the Pa lottery profits pay for that. Took lazy foot dragging SEPTA ten weeks to mail my card. Rode it free to work for over two years until retiring. Nogoodnics made my 95 year old mother have two people carry her out of her house to have to go to SEPTA 13 th & Market office to have her picture taken to get a pass to be able to ride para transit to doctors office. She never got to use the card she passed short time later.
I have ridden all the lines shown in this video. I grew up in southwest Philadelphia so I rode both the subway serface trolleys as well as the el regularly. In college as well as my job in the city I latter rode both the el and the Broad Street Subway as well as using it to get to the Phillies baseball games on many weekends. As mentioned the Market Frankford el had the most problems. There would be a long delay and then three or more trains running right together. I ocassionaly rode the Broad Ridge spur to get to 8th and Market street from the north. As for PATCO I used to ride it back in the day when the Pennsylvania-Reading Railroad had RDC commuter rail service to the various New Jersey shore towns. It Terminated at that time at Lindenwald where you had to change to get to Philadelphia. It was fast and comfortable but you always had to worry about making your connection especially when leaving Philadelphia for your train connection at Lindenwald. Of course you now have that as an option since New Jersey Transit reestablished through train service to 30th street station in Philadelphia. I also got to ride the Norristown high speed line during my college days when I had a job on Lancaster Pike and rode to Villanova to transfer to a bus to get to my job. It was both fast and comfortable and usually was reliable.
I just found out a couple of days ago I found septa is looking for a contractor to scrap 20 M4 railcars it was in an online document
69th street has gotten a lot better now they started cleaning it regularly
i love how the patco card works on septa but key doesn't work on patco lol
Only the special Freedom Card works on SEPTA. The main card doesn't.
TLDR; I only rode SEPTA's three rapid transit line once & overall they're fine and gets the job done. Apart from the Norristown High Speed Line, was slowed down to 55mph due to an accident, & wish it could be returned to 70mph but may try an limited train someday
Long version:
I have rode the BSL once, two years ago (2022) from NRG to City Hall & its overall fine. Stations do feel sketchy but I can imagine after all the cleaning it'll be worry free. The train gives off massive 70s vibes likely due to the orange motif but have enough space to accommodate my one luggage as the intercity bus driver changed drop off to NRG than the original Fashion District.
Later I rode the NHSL + MFL for the first time this year (Can't you tell im new to all of this?) from Norristown (NHSL) to 11th Street (MFL) because I missed the regional train.
First thing I'll say about the NHSL, oh boy its slow & I wish it travel at its original 70mph instead of 55mph but other than that, its cheaper & frequent than Regional. Might try an limited service train tho to change my opinons.
As for the MFL, felt more modern like the NYC subway trains than the BSL but without the digital signage. However I do agree its pretty loud & more compacted than the BSL or NYC. Felt faster than the NHSL likely due to stops being closer & generally more urbanized as I get to Center City.
Oh and I have no opinions about PATCO as I never ridden one in my entire life so far due to the destinations being less than stellar & not knowing anyone in NJ.
@@Poorgeniu5PATCO IS WILD!!
@@Poorgeniu5you need to go ride PATCO. It's faster than SEPTA (65mph) and the trains run partly automatic. Definitely worth the ride.
Man PATCO is so sick
I took both the El and the BSL on the Wednesday before thanksgiving and I was worried it might be sus but it was fine both times. I actually somewhat liked the less fancy (I’m used to the DC Metro) vibes.
@sammymarrco47 They really are better than a lot of people give them credit for, but the presentation is one of the things that drags it down. Funny enough, I was on the DC Metro just before Thanksgiving, and it's presentation is undeniably great. Even in a lot of discussions I've had with people around here about transit, they always cite the DC Metro as something to aspire to. An extreme example maybe, we dont need to recreate the DC Metro here, but just making the stations a tad bit nicer and more polished could go a long way here. Maybe those new trails for the El could be the catalyst we need.
@@SteveGettingAroundPhillyyeah I used 2nd street station and it was actually clean, NRG and Gerard weren’t that bad either. I would like to see countdown clocks on the BSL though.
The el and the sub are usually pretty chill. It was at its worse (imo) during covid but has gotten better in the years since. Ofc you'll never get rid of the craziness that can occur at times but I think it just adds the experience when you can look back and laugh at it.
@@sammymarrco47 The EL is the piolet program for the countdown clocks the hole system is supposed to get them in a few years
I’ve always disliked the Washington metro, but I’m in the vast minority. But it goes to show you just how much cleanliness and aesthetics matter to people.
The one thing you could have Don't explain, it's why there's a difference between the gauges of the Market Frankford Line and the Broad Street Line. The Market Frankfort Line being built by PRT predecessor of SEPTA. With the Broad Street Line being built by the Cuty of Philadelphia. Also on the Norristown high Speed Line is you failed to mention connections at 69th Street with the 101 Media and 102 Sharon Hill trolley. Also on PATCO didn't mention connections with NJT River Line in Camden.
The reasons vary but it mostly has to do with when they were built. The Market Frankford line being first was built using the PA trolley gauge due to it possibly being used for through service with Red Arrow trolley lines that served, West Chester, Media, Sharon Hill and Ardmore at the time. The two private transit companies never could come to any agreement so that is why there is a large transit terminal at 69th street and Market street in Upper Darby. The Norristown High Speed Line was built as the Philadelphia and Western Railroad and was envisioned as a high speed interurban that was envisioned to serve much further west than Stratford where it originally terminated next to the Pennsylvania Railroad station at the same town. The city of Philadelphia built the Broad Street Subway and leased it to the private transit company to operate it. Even today the subway and even some of the cars are actually owned by the city. Why it is standard railroad track gage is most likely because of the convience of being able to buy off the shelf subway cars from various manufactures. Over the years they bought their old cars from different companies but could be run together. As noted except for special occasions the operate one set from Kawasaki.
It a perfect example of how a transit system should be built.
Streetcars provide local service that is easier to access. It stops in more places.
Heavy Rail provides "Express" and super express services. They stop in fewer places.
Commuter rail provides limited service in the city, but it is still accessible for many city residences.
Unfortunately, it is the only one that is built out to serve more areas.
Buses have to take up the slack in many more areas.
This is the case in the majority of cities unfortunately.
The EL particularly is the most attractive because of the cost to build and the fact it does not compete with street traffic unlike street running rail service.
All in all, every single system have a particular purpose and that makes Philadelphia attractive. But there just need to more streetcar, subway and elevated routes.
One of the most amazing in the nation
You forgot about Paris metro shuttle line which operated as GoA2 ATO in the early 1950's with MP51 trains, the prototype of rubber tyred metros.
Philadelphia's transit system seems like a bit of a hodgepodge. Wouldn't they gain from standardizing a little?
A dual track rapid transit line should not be prone to bus replacements, it should just work.
The BSL terminus being called NRG Station and similar sponsored naming will forever anger me. Stations are not stadiums. They should be named in accordance to what they serve. If you are going to offer sponsorships for station names, it should be a requirement that there at least be a physical presence of the sponsor within walking distance of the station. This is why I don't mind Jefferson Station so much, that at least indicates Jefferson Hospital is nearby. But there's no "NRG" to go to. Even more annoying if you have tourists who are in town for a game.
Or at least name it NRG Pattison Station so that people still know where it is.
Never thought about the P&W being rapid transit but honestly yeah, yeah it is.
As a Patco native, stops at cherry hill and Vorheese?! Although that would be cool to see one day
woodcrest and ashland
Also I like patco a lot more than any septa routes because its the only route they run so they put more effort into actually making it good and unique
15th street needs some MAJOR love from septa
It really isn't that bad. More frequent service would help on the regional rail as well as a way to combat the homelessness on the MFL & BSL. Oh and they need to bring back A & B stops on the MFL!!
The KOP was not stupid at all and definitely would've helped take passengers off the slow expressway buses and would allow folks that live in West Philly and Delco to access King of Prussia way faster than going all the way into the city to catch a bus back up to KOP or catching the 123 bus up the Blue Route. Plus, all the buses tend to get delayed with traffic as well.
Offering the Manayunk line as an alternative does nothing good for people out west who would have to go all the way downtown to get to it.
Plus, the fares are more expensive, the line is only 2 tracks with a ton of stops along the way (vs the few stops on the NHSL that are mainly flag stops), and is subject to flooding along its river routing.
So no, the KOP extension was not a bad idea at all. What made it not work were the NIMBYs along the route who opposed it despite not even being riders of the line yet they frequent the mall whose workers would use the line to get there.
Very bad take.
The train you shouldn't take unless you have to. That best describes The El.
Another great video. My only negative comment would be that when you put you put up a in-video comment card, you don’t leave enough time for it to be read. Like the one right after your Tim Hortons comment.
I hope BSL and NHSL also get new Hitachi cars similar to the MFL, similar to how the MBTA Red and Orange lines have new cars similar to each other
Philly got a good system for it population. Especially when you compare it to Dallas and Houston, which runs light rail. Any subway or elevated line would always rank higher.
And Atlanta MARTA, which is only a subway elevated system that serves fewer stations. Minus the almost none existent light rail line.
Than we got Cleveland who tried to create what Philly has with must less success!
Even Philadelphia has something NYC doesn't have: Thorough running service on it commuter lines.
Philly Septa trains are faster than New York City Subway trains, which are slowest in the Nation. And NJ Transit commuter trains.
But the infrastructure around some of Septa lines are very lack. Like certain stations resembling bus stops.
But overall, Philly wins hands down.
As a New Yorker, I never know why our trains are capped to 40mph- oh, its because of a train accident that happened more than a century ago
@@GobbiExists Also, probably the infrastructure to support faster service.
broad street line is significantly better than the L… no hate to the L but as a young, short woman i have genuinely experienced bad things on the L and i only rly try to take it with other people…
SEPTA is a great service!
I live in the county next to philly I like the bus lines better
Nothing is ever as bad as Philadelphians say it is...hence the billboards in the 1970's.
You really don’t want to see Chinese levels of crowding
Everything that everyone has, philly just does it better.
idk when the el became worse than the sub but it’s like horrible at this point.
Its gonna be really interesting how these new subway cars age considering they literally travel through one of the most dangerous streets in America
Septic.
Fare evasion is not a problem. Fares are. Public transit should be free, there’s no reason you should have to pay for it when it’s already government subsidized anyway.
No they should be integrated
The Philadelphia Subway is so pathetic that I, a New Yorker, would complement Chicago over that, and the Chicago "L" is called that for a reason.
Edit: Oh also IDK if it's more pathetic that your Rapid Transit almost goes as far as your Commuter Rail or your Commuter Rail only goes a bit past your Rapid Transit system.
wow ok…
Philly is smaller than NYC and Chicago, and it’s fine for SEPTA to be smaller bc it serves fewer people. Expansions would be nice, but expecting something like those cities is unrealistic in Philly.
“L” is not some trademarked term or anything. It’s literally just short for “elevated” which makes a lot of sense for the MFL. More than one city can have an “L” lol. We just only call one line the “L” instead of the whole system. It’s like if the (7) in NYC was nicknamed the “L”
Your comment about the commuter rail literally makes no sense lol. Regional rail and goes to places like Delaware, Thorndale, Doylestown, and Trenton. The AC line goes all the way to Atlantic City. The rapid transit goes nowhere near those places.
Clearly you (a New Yorker) think what city you’re from makes you better than other people for some reason. You’re just saying things that aren’t even true. Come actually visit Philly sometime. While our transit could use more funding, our city is great and you’d probably enjoy it more than you think
@@ericwittas a New Yorker, I approve of this reply
At least SEPTA tries to use the funding they get properly
Some Philly regional rail lines should be rerouted to the subway lines. Like Fox chase and maybe chestnut hill
Besides the fact that that New York City Subway seems to be 70% Elevated, Maybe instead of putting down our system how about focus on the fact that someone is constantly getting stabbed or pushed on the tracks on your Subway system oh by the way how is the prevention of Subway surfing turning out?
Just so you understand Yes we have an EL it's called the Market Frankford Subway Elevated Line. You guys do have a huge system just like you guys constantly have huge delays, power outages as well as consistent floods in your subways.
@calinahernandez6775 60% of the NYC Subway is underground which means 40% is open air, which includes Els, Embankments, Surface Level, and Open Cut tracks. Also I was joking about "There's a reason they call it the"L", That was more referring to how NYC calls them "El's" but Chicago and Philadelphia call them "L's". I do have to give Philly props for having the second ever Automatic Transit line in the world. I will also complement Chicago on the Engineering of Tower 18, and just wondering, is Tower 18 the Chicago version of DeKalb, Rogers, or 59th street junction? Edit: Maybe the 70% you got included the now destroyed Els on 9th, 6th, 3rd, 2nd, Lexington, Myrtle, Fulton, and Culver?
Originally from North Jersey here. I have never ridden on SEPTA (Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority).
The PATCO (Port Authority Transportation Corporation) is the equivalent to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey’s PATH (Port Authority Trans Hudson) system in some respects. 🚆😃👍
FYI - Regarding Tim Hortons:
I live in Manville Borough in Somerset County, New Jersey (about 60 miles northeast of Philadelphia/Center City). The closest full service Tim Hortons in central New Jersey is in nearby Raritan Borough. Love Tim Hortons! 🍩☕😃👍
There are three Tim Hortons locations in the state of Georgia: one in Atlanta, one in Fairburn (suburb of Atlanta) and one in Columbus (where I’m from). I don’t know why the Columbus location exists save maybe for all the veterans who really liked it in Canada or the northern US. Columbus’s main economic driver is the large Army installation to its south.
@howwegetaround I saw the nsl for the first time today in person
What a great look at the lines!
Fun fact: PATCO TVMs used to give cheap (I can't recall the price) paper transfers to SEPTA. It had essentially two pieces of receipt paper with one timed within an hour of purchase and one within 24 hours (if purchasing a round trip). I believe that was eliminated at the time of the Freedom Share Card, but could be used on any subway, bus, or trolley.
The Freedom Share Card is nice in that it allows electronic transfers to the same modes via card reader at the Key price, though it is becoming less needed as long as one has the ability for phone/card tap payments.
The PATCO fare kiosks are slated to be modernized by Fall of next year, and they've stated they will be able to accept Freedom Cards and tap options. They're also saying paper magnetic stripe tickets will be retired in place of limited-use smart tickets.