I’m studying Mongolian and I want to become fluent one day. When I heard the goverment of Mongolia plans to reintroduce the traditional script, I tried to learn it, especially because ot looks so pretty! But after seeing the баярлалаа (bayarlalaa) is spelled ba-yar-la-lu-gu, I got war flashbacks from when we had ro memorise English spellings in Primary School. For now, I’ll just stick to the Cyrillic. If anything, I can relearn how to write after becoming at least a bit more fluent in the language.
They should really make a new one. It would be great to visually base off traditional but to not only have more coherent spelling but also actually capture the sounds of the Mongolian language. Might wanna make it able to be written horizontally so it doesn't cause a bunch of format issues on screens.
@@sanneoi6323 they did make a new one in the XVII century , its called Clear Script or Todo (technically it's for the Oirat language but it and Mongolian are very close)
Great work 🤠 I am teaching my doughter the traditional Mongolian script at home 🏘️ let's do our best to pass the beautiful script to the next generation 🤞
As someone who has studied Tibetan some and no Mongolian at all, the traditional Mongolian script seems a lot harder. Tibetan has a lot of rules, but knowing them will enable you to pronounce most words correctly without knowing any vocabulary. Doesn’t seem true of trad Mong
A lot of the ambiguity of Mongolian comes directly from Old Uyghur, having essentially adopted their script. Kinda weird that they changed some things, but not others. Regarding another contender, have you ever studied Tangut?
I was wondering if you could do a video covering the Mongolian traditional spelling system? I've dabbled with Mongolian and the most I've really found out so far is the VgV becoming a long VV vowel sound. Are you aware of any websites that teach Mongolian spelling? Also, would you recommend against trying to learn Mongolian with the trad script? I was planning on just learning it via the trad script, though since normal Mongolian resources are few and far between, I'm guessing it'll be even more so for the trad script... Are you aware of vocab lists with Mongolian vocab in the trad script, grammar in the trad script, or any short stories I could try and use to practise? Sorry for the barrage of questions lol. Thanks in advance though!
In all honesty I have considered making a video about traditional Mongolian spelling, the main problem as you have highlighted is the lack of good resources outlining the exact rules as well as how they may have come about. Personally I learnt the traditional script after I had already picked up quite a bit of mongolian so I was able to teach myself fairly easily just through matching the spellings to the words and pronunciations I already knew. For that reason, at least going off personal experience, I would say as tantalizing as the traditional script looks, I would recommend against learning it at first. There simply are not many good resources for learning it online or in books and you are likely to find there are just as few places that still use it outside of china for you to practise using it. Mongolian resources are hard enough to find without adding on additional limitations that ulitmately will give you little no benefits. .......That being said..... Traditional Mongolian is fucking badass! So while there is literally no logical reason to put yourself through that, if you really wanna learn Mongolian through the traditional script, here is how I would reccomend doing so. First: Learn Cyrrillic The fact is that most materials aimed at english speakers utilize cyrrilic. Now this isn't as bad as it seems, after all Mongolian Cyrrilic is fairly intuitive and learning is probably only gonna be a nothing in the challenge of learning mongolian with traditional spelling. Next: Learn The Traditional Alphabet There is this site here www.studymongolian.net/lessons/basics/writing/ that I know tends to go into a bit more detail than you need at least for now, but you gotta learn the letters somehow, and I do remember using this one at first. Just dont' try to do it all at once! I would reccomend using it more as a reference as you learn words. Next again: Learn Mongolian (probably thru Cyrillic) Here's where we put it all together. Like i mentioned, the fact is most books n shit you find are prob onna primarily use cyrrilic, so go with that if it's all you have, but as you're learning new words, just look up their traditional spelling online as well. Most dictionaries like www.bolor-toli.com/ and mongoltoli.mn/ will list words in both cyrrilic and traditional so it's usually not too hard to find the spelling for each word. Just make sure you are looking at the right definition of the word since some words have the same spelling in Cyrillic but different spellings in traditional. Next Again Again: Grammatical spelling Books like "Mongolian Grammar" by Rita Kullmann can give you the rules for spelling suffixes and shit like that cause those are usually a bit different from normal. Finally: Putting it into Practise Yeah i'm not onna lie, of course you can write for yourself lots in the traditional script, but in terms of reading other peoples works the best you can prob do is Mongolian news sites, many of which also allow you to switch the language to traditional script. uhhhh so yeah sorry for the barrage of answers i guess 🤣, hope that helps!
I know this is more about spelling than factoring writing the glyphs themselves but since it's a tie I'd say Uchen is way easier to write. That said there is another form of writing for Tibetan that has all the heads cut off. But having two systems wirh two different spelling systems for Mongolian makes it the winner for me
Tibetan case spellings are also annoying as hell, in particular because a spelling reform removed silent d's from the end of words, but retained the irregular spellings of attached case markers which were conditioned by those d's. In fact, case marker spellings are conditioned by a whole ton of rules.
Good that I've been able to contain my language obsession somewhat and become very aware of my mortality. When I see a video like that, I think "not going to learn that". And now I'm ok with the idea of learning some languages to a conversational level while being illiterate. So far, only Latin alphabet to me, and I'll sure try to learn Kanji or devanagari when time comes, but if it gets too complicated, I might just drop them and solely enjoy the languages in their spoken forms.
This is a good video, i am glad outer mongolia switched to cyrillic. If they do switch back to traditional script like they said they wanted to i hope they do spelling reforms
Yeah I 100% agree, though I do imagine even with spelling reforms there would be some problems. I don't know how familair you are with Mongolian or the traditional script, but imagine trying to write something like "талархахаа" with the traditional script but with updated spelling, "ᠲᠠᠯᠠᠷᠬᠠᠬᠠᠠ"? In addition there would be no way of distinguishing certain words such as "дур" and "дор" and "тор" which would all be spelt "ᠳᠣᠷ". It seems to me a full overhaul of the script would be neccesary.
I thought it's just english and french, and japanese, and chinese, but there is also mongolian and tibetan (and other languages written in tibetan script, like dzongkha)?😊
I remember reading that Mongolia wants to replace the Cyrillic script with their traditional script. Is this what they will replace Cyrillic with? and if yes do you know if they are planning on keeping these spelling rules?
To be honest, this doesn't seem too bad. Mongolian is a kind of a combination of Arabic and hebrew but turned by 90°. It's like Arabic because all letters have 2 or 3 forms and it's like hebrew because many letters have various pronunciations. Like ב and בּ or פ and פּ (the dots are never actually written + in ancient almost all letters had a variant with dots that actually sounded different, not just bet, kaf and pey). So regarding this, maybe tibetan is worse
I'll still go with late 19th century Japanese, which combined a larger number of Han logograms (Kanji, many of which had variant forms that were used interchangeably and most of which have multiple pronunciations depending on the context) with a non-phonemic orthography for the Kana syllabaries (Katakana and Hiragana, which also had the non-standardized variants now known as Hentaigana). That period was also the high point of Ateji, using Kanji more or less phonetically (and often introducing even more irregularities) for loanwords.
I’m studying Mongolian and I want to become fluent one day. When I heard the goverment of Mongolia plans to reintroduce the traditional script, I tried to learn it, especially because ot looks so pretty! But after seeing the баярлалаа (bayarlalaa) is spelled ba-yar-la-lu-gu, I got war flashbacks from when we had ro memorise English spellings in Primary School. For now, I’ll just stick to the Cyrillic. If anything, I can relearn how to write after becoming at least a bit more fluent in the language.
They should really make a new one. It would be great to visually base off traditional but to not only have more coherent spelling but also actually capture the sounds of the Mongolian language. Might wanna make it able to be written horizontally so it doesn't cause a bunch of format issues on screens.
@@sanneoi6323 they did make a new one in the XVII century , its called Clear Script or Todo (technically it's for the Oirat language but it and Mongolian are very close)
@@majaaaaaaaaaawith10as well, yea...
Great work 🤠 I am teaching my doughter the traditional Mongolian script at home 🏘️ let's do our best to pass the beautiful script to the next generation 🤞
As someone who has studied Tibetan some and no Mongolian at all, the traditional Mongolian script seems a lot harder. Tibetan has a lot of rules, but knowing them will enable you to pronounce most words correctly without knowing any vocabulary. Doesn’t seem true of trad Mong
the middle persian pahlavi script also has confusing letters, i dont know about it much but i suggest you check it out :p
Yeah I will do so. Looks like the kind of thing that might be interesting to make a video about in the future!
A lot of the ambiguity of Mongolian comes directly from Old Uyghur, having essentially adopted their script. Kinda weird that they changed some things, but not others.
Regarding another contender, have you ever studied Tangut?
Tangut referred to Tibetan by mongol and ancient chinese.
when mongolia returns to middle mongol, i hope they would add diacritics to differentiate letters and sounds from others, like what manchu does
The problem with Mongolian script is it cannot write Horizontally :(
well. you can it just. looks off. technically you can write latin script vertically, it just looks off
I was wondering if you could do a video covering the Mongolian traditional spelling system? I've dabbled with Mongolian and the most I've really found out so far is the VgV becoming a long VV vowel sound. Are you aware of any websites that teach Mongolian spelling?
Also, would you recommend against trying to learn Mongolian with the trad script? I was planning on just learning it via the trad script, though since normal Mongolian resources are few and far between, I'm guessing it'll be even more so for the trad script... Are you aware of vocab lists with Mongolian vocab in the trad script, grammar in the trad script, or any short stories I could try and use to practise?
Sorry for the barrage of questions lol. Thanks in advance though!
In all honesty I have considered making a video about traditional Mongolian spelling, the main problem as you have highlighted is the lack of good resources outlining the exact rules as well as how they may have come about. Personally I learnt the traditional script after I had already picked up quite a bit of mongolian so I was able to teach myself fairly easily just through matching the spellings to the words and pronunciations I already knew. For that reason, at least going off personal experience, I would say as tantalizing as the traditional script looks, I would recommend against learning it at first. There simply are not many good resources for learning it online or in books and you are likely to find there are just as few places that still use it outside of china for you to practise using it. Mongolian resources are hard enough to find without adding on additional limitations that ulitmately will give you little no benefits.
.......That being said..... Traditional Mongolian is fucking badass! So while there is literally no logical reason to put yourself through that, if you really wanna learn Mongolian through the traditional script, here is how I would reccomend doing so.
First: Learn Cyrrillic
The fact is that most materials aimed at english speakers utilize cyrrilic. Now this isn't as bad as it seems, after all Mongolian Cyrrilic is fairly intuitive and learning is probably only gonna be a nothing in the challenge of learning mongolian with traditional spelling.
Next: Learn The Traditional Alphabet
There is this site here www.studymongolian.net/lessons/basics/writing/ that I know tends to go into a bit more detail than you need at least for now, but you gotta learn the letters somehow, and I do remember using this one at first. Just dont' try to do it all at once! I would reccomend using it more as a reference as you learn words.
Next again: Learn Mongolian (probably thru Cyrillic)
Here's where we put it all together. Like i mentioned, the fact is most books n shit you find are prob onna primarily use cyrrilic, so go with that if it's all you have, but as you're learning new words, just look up their traditional spelling online as well. Most dictionaries like www.bolor-toli.com/ and mongoltoli.mn/ will list words in both cyrrilic and traditional so it's usually not too hard to find the spelling for each word. Just make sure you are looking at the right definition of the word since some words have the same spelling in Cyrillic but different spellings in traditional.
Next Again Again: Grammatical spelling
Books like "Mongolian Grammar" by Rita Kullmann can give you the rules for spelling suffixes and shit like that cause those are usually a bit different from normal.
Finally: Putting it into Practise
Yeah i'm not onna lie, of course you can write for yourself lots in the traditional script, but in terms of reading other peoples works the best you can prob do is Mongolian news sites, many of which also allow you to switch the language to traditional script.
uhhhh so yeah sorry for the barrage of answers i guess 🤣, hope that helps!
I know this is more about spelling than factoring writing the glyphs themselves but since it's a tie I'd say Uchen is way easier to write. That said there is another form of writing for Tibetan that has all the heads cut off.
But having two systems wirh two different spelling systems for Mongolian makes it the winner for me
I watched all your vids… When are you coming back?😢
Great videos! I hope there will be _next time_
What about English?
Tibetan case spellings are also annoying as hell, in particular because a spelling reform removed silent d's from the end of words, but retained the irregular spellings of attached case markers which were conditioned by those d's. In fact, case marker spellings are conditioned by a whole ton of rules.
Good that I've been able to contain my language obsession somewhat and become very aware of my mortality. When I see a video like that, I think "not going to learn that". And now I'm ok with the idea of learning some languages to a conversational level while being illiterate. So far, only Latin alphabet to me, and I'll sure try to learn Kanji or devanagari when time comes, but if it gets too complicated, I might just drop them and solely enjoy the languages in their spoken forms.
This is a good video, i am glad outer mongolia switched to cyrillic. If they do switch back to traditional script like they said they wanted to i hope they do spelling reforms
Yeah I 100% agree, though I do imagine even with spelling reforms there would be some problems. I don't know how familair you are with Mongolian or the traditional script, but imagine trying to write something like "талархахаа" with the traditional script but with updated spelling, "ᠲᠠᠯᠠᠷᠬᠠᠬᠠᠠ"? In addition there would be no way of distinguishing certain words such as "дур" and "дор" and "тор" which would all be spelt "ᠳᠣᠷ". It seems to me a full overhaul of the script would be neccesary.
@@fungmatkhan1998 thankfully they have mongolian script derivatives they can be inspired by
The hardness of mongolian traditional script is also its beauty.
I thought it's just english and french, and japanese, and chinese, but there is also mongolian and tibetan (and other languages written in tibetan script, like dzongkha)?😊
What about the less conservative tibetan dialects like khams, or other tibetic languages like dzongkha, don't they have harder spelling?
At least Balti straight up uses arabic scripts
Tibetan is surely the coolest looking script
I remember reading that Mongolia wants to replace the Cyrillic script with their traditional script. Is this what they will replace Cyrillic with? and if yes do you know if they are planning on keeping these spelling rules?
Next video when?
Hello, will you ever upload videos again?
i hope u come back some time
come back bro
It still wouldn't have hurt to refer to Mongolian's traditional spelling profanity-free.
Don't forget Thai
To be honest, this doesn't seem too bad. Mongolian is a kind of a combination of Arabic and hebrew but turned by 90°. It's like Arabic because all letters have 2 or 3 forms and it's like hebrew because many letters have various pronunciations. Like ב and בּ or פ and פּ (the dots are never actually written + in ancient almost all letters had a variant with dots that actually sounded different, not just bet, kaf and pey). So regarding this, maybe tibetan is worse
Make another video
Are you still seeing the comments
*Hebrew has entered the chat*
Vajrayana Buddhists - having the most nonsense ahh writing ever
I'll still go with late 19th century Japanese, which combined a larger number of Han logograms (Kanji, many of which had variant forms that were used interchangeably and most of which have multiple pronunciations depending on the context) with a non-phonemic orthography for the Kana syllabaries (Katakana and Hiragana, which also had the non-standardized variants now known as Hentaigana). That period was also the high point of Ateji, using Kanji more or less phonetically (and often introducing even more irregularities) for loanwords.
i thought english spelling 🤨 is d most difficult
i thot inglish speling iz d most dificult
I thought english has the worst spelling.
Yeah you would be surprised to see some of the crazy spelling systems going on out there in the world!
@@fungmatkhan1998 How bad is Chinese and arabic compared to traditional mongolian?
@@LuisGonzalez-hs5pe Chinese and Arabic aren't anything compared to Traditional Mongolian
here I would like to put my favorite word in hudum bichig ᠲᠠᠭᠠᠭᠠᠯᠭᠠᠪᠤᠷᠢ(tagagalgabvri) which look halarious with the amount of teeth
I was literally just thinking about this the other day, how you have to count the teeth while writing...😭 similar to ᠰᠤᠷᠭᠠᠭᠤᠯᠢ (school)