Interesting - I've been developing for 60 years both, professionally and as a hobby. Never have seen an analysis like you did. Thanks, very interesting.
This is fantastic. Thanks mate…I’d love to see further tests done with a rotary continuous agitation (motorised). Thanks for making the effort to do this.
Thank you for the trouble you went to in setting this up. Having got blix all over the place when the tank "burped" while inverting, I now agitate C41 using the swizzle stick while the tank remains in the water bath to maintain temperature. No mess and the results are good. I invert for B&W but I have also used the stick to agitate.
I should do a video on how swizzle sticks are just fine. Or even better a video on trying to ruin film and still getting good development. I have tried to ruin film before and still gotten good development.
I add a 90 degree twist during each inversion, so after the 4 inversions the tank has rotated thru 360 degrees. Also, contrary to an earlier post, I half-fill my 2 spool tank if I'm only developing one film and I've never had a problem with uneven development during 100+ processes..(120 film). But as you say, consistency is the key.
Well done and informative video. Developing is the crucial part of photo processing. It's like the foundation of a building. Do it wrong and the final prints have little chance of success. Most of my developing is of old expired/exposed rolls and magazines of film I find in vintage cameras, online, or at estate sales. So I'm mostly developing obsolete color film as B&W. This is a completely different category of film processing than what most people do. How I treat a film in the tank often determines whether or not I get any images. Again, great video. Thanks
The damaged strip of film you show on the beginning has stress marks due to an overly rough handling in the camera, either by hand or (most likely) the camera’s motor. You can see it’s not a development issue by how the problem cuts off suddenly to normal film with no marks
For my quite 50 year old Paterson tanks I have plastic clips for the central tube preventing the spool, by one only spool use, to slide up the tube during agitation.
i,m with you, just fill the tank up, better to have correct development, even if it uses a little more Dev. Great demo with your cut out, learnt a lot thanks
This might have helped me. I'll try agitate "more less tired". I have noticed single stains in rare cases and it never looked like lightleaks or so. It really might be a dev problem
I learnt and have always practiced inverting while rotating, rather than rotating before an inversion. I rotate about once every 2 seconds, so a bit slower then demonstrated, but still forcefully. Also I round up the solution amount to nearest simple to calculate value. Thereby ensuring max coverage during both operations.
Nice video. Always wondered what it looked like inside. Incidentally, my agitation technique is very similar to yours. I often fill the tank to capacity.
I was surprised myself, by the time it takes for the bubbles to pass through the reels. It looks to me that you might get more agitation per inversion with a pause before you upright again. I hope that makes sense.
I am a fan of minimum agitation (semi stand) and longer development for the sake of shadow detail. Also the developer/film combination plays an important role if you get drag marks or not. I am very fine with tanning/hardening developers like Pyro, not only giving me drag free negatives but also highest acutance. Initial agitation is very important for good wetting of the emulsion. For this and the agitations according to semistand I roll the tank in my hands, preventing the density curve from steepening up and grain from becoming large as it likely happens with heavy agitation.
Am I missing something? I believe (perhaps wrongly?) it's best to fill a tank until full, so there is very little air. In which case agitation wont behave in the way shown here.
The best way i have found is not to invert or turn just vibrate the tank with a motor and weight for 5 sec every minute. i got the idea from a friend who uses the technique to polish pebbles. i have been doing it this way for 15 years and get perfect negs every time.
That's interesting. With all the books I have read about hundreds of years of photography I have never heard of using vibration. I can't picture vibration circulating the chemistry. You should make a video, I would be interested to see it.
@@thorleyphotography I wouldn't know how to do a video on here . I do it this way all the time now i just got sick of tanks leaking all the time .When you think of developing paper, people all ways jiggle the tray about it only the same thing. i did the circulating magnet thing and the worked out fine too but not quite as good. Another way is to force Co2 into the bottom of the tank that procedure is well documented and i have done that too and it works really well but it's a bit bothersome . so i just use a fan with a nut and bolt on one of the blades, I am using a 556 timer chip to do the timing for me but it's not really necessary just turn it on/off by the switch. If you get the right oscillation to get little point of water all over the surface of the tank you have got it right. As a test A speaker cone with a bit of sand on it and an audio generator set to about 10 Khz square gives much the same result but irritating noise .
@@thorleyphotography NB: as to "I can't picture vibration circulating the chemistry" given that the water has to move and the tank spiral jumps about a bit would seem to be enough .It does the job for me and doesnt give me high contrast negs (if you don't turn it on to much ) 5 sec every minute is right for me.
There's a lot of variable we haven't mentioned here. I once took a modern film Delta, put it in D76, did three limp almost inversions and went to have lunch. The negatives weren't bad. On the other extreme if you shoot 5x4 and develop in Pyro it's almost a sport. I often use a lithographic film that isn't meant to produce continuous tone, getting this even in Pyro is just about wizardry.
I aggitate 1st 30 seconds and then 5 seconds for every 30 seconds and have had no issues. I also don't use the minimum recommended on the tank bottom. Rather, I like to round up (35mm: 300 ml vs recommended 290 ml), (4x5: 1000 ml vs 950 ml), (6x6: 500 ml vs 500 ml) because the, ahem, math is easier. That being said, I really like your demo with the tank window as it shows what is happening and it is very revealing, to say the least.
I invert very gently and back over about 8-10 seconds with a few light taps at the end, repeating every 30 seconds (as described on the Patterson tank instructions).
Fill the tank to the correct capacity, which will submerge the film completely. Tap the tank to release any bubbles of air. Inverse continiously for 1 minute, do not use force. At the end of every minute inverse 4 times. Use stop bath, followed by fix. This results in perfectly developed film, no problems. Use developer suited to the new generation of films, like FX39.
I really wouldn't bother with the "immersion" action. Use 300ml of dev, Agitate for 30s (shake), bang the tank on a hard surface then hand rotate 10 -15 seconds for ever minute, switch direction each minute. You get nice grain for 200-800 speed film.
What exactly is the point of this? I'm studying for the praxis 2 (test to become art teacher) and this is going to be on there but I haven't really heard anyone explain why a person should do this..
This video is an in depth look into agitation so it hasn't covered the basics. It's like when your making a cake you need to stir the mix, or if your making bread you need to kneed the dough.
A pretty good basic comparison Nick. Taking that just a little further: with a lot of baking recipes, if you mix/stir to much you will not get a correct product. It may turn out with a completely different texture than you should. Might be to dense, to dry, etc... So like with developing: if we agitate to long, not long enough; we may not come out with negatives that are just as we want them. But I had never thought of the baking analogy before. Good one...
Nice video. I'm not a fan of this brusque agitation method, it creates a lot of bubbles. The only requirement for a good agitation method is that the developer that's in direct contact with the film is renewed during the specified intervals for the film/developer combo. As long as there's enough developer to cover the spool and about 1/3 more, a wobble movement accompanied by a rotation movement around the spool's axis is perfectly sufficient and it creates virtually zero air bubbles.
If you have no air in the tank, the liquid won't flow. Try it in a plastic bottle by adding juice concentrate last. You'll see that the liquid just moves with the bottle (mostly). You need some air to help agitation (unless you want stand development with no agitation)
The correct normal way is continuously 1 minute and 10 seconds every minute, not every 30 seconds. Of course there is a different possibility if you want an specific effect, but the correct agitation is that one. There is a lot of bullshit and also stupid experiments, but agitation is something clear and simple
Wow..no other RUclips channel has taken the effort to cut away a tank for darkroom folks..very educational and down right interesting 👍
Wow, this is the ultimate video on film agitation. Thanks for sharing!
Interesting - I've been developing for 60 years both, professionally and as a hobby. Never have seen an analysis like you did. Thanks, very interesting.
This is fantastic. Thanks mate…I’d love to see further tests done with a rotary continuous agitation (motorised). Thanks for making the effort to do this.
You want me to cut up some nice job tanks lol. I don't have many of them. Donate the tank I'll make the vid.
Very cool demonstration. Thanks!
Incredibly useful information, thank you so much for this.
Thank you for the trouble you went to in setting this up. Having got blix all over the place when the tank "burped" while inverting, I now agitate C41 using the swizzle stick while the tank remains in the water bath to maintain temperature. No mess and the results are good. I invert for B&W but I have also used the stick to agitate.
I should do a video on how swizzle sticks are just fine. Or even better a video on trying to ruin film and still getting good development. I have tried to ruin film before and still gotten good development.
just subbed to you, number 666
thanks for taking the effort to show us how to correctly develop our film! thank you so much
Thanks for the sub, even if it is a scary number.
I add a 90 degree twist during each inversion, so after the 4 inversions the tank has rotated thru 360 degrees. Also, contrary to an earlier post, I half-fill my 2 spool tank if I'm only developing one film and I've never had a problem with uneven development during 100+ processes..(120 film). But as you say, consistency is the key.
Same here except that I do a 180° turn.
I wish I could like this video twice!
Well done and informative video. Developing is the crucial part of photo processing. It's like the foundation of a building. Do it wrong and the final prints have little chance of success. Most of my developing is of old expired/exposed rolls and magazines of film I find in vintage cameras, online, or at estate sales. So I'm mostly developing obsolete color film as B&W. This is a completely different category of film processing than what most people do. How I treat a film in the tank often determines whether or not I get any images. Again, great video. Thanks
The damaged strip of film you show on the beginning has stress marks due to an overly rough handling in the camera, either by hand or (most likely) the camera’s motor. You can see it’s not a development issue by how the problem cuts off suddenly to normal film with no marks
For my quite 50 year old Paterson tanks I have plastic clips for the central tube preventing the spool, by one only spool use, to slide up the tube during agitation.
I also hold the tank horizontally and give it a few rolls as well as the normal agitation....
i,m with you, just fill the tank up, better to have correct development, even if it uses a little more Dev. Great demo with your cut out, learnt a lot thanks
This might have helped me. I'll try agitate "more less tired". I have noticed single stains in rare cases and it never looked like lightleaks or so. It really might be a dev problem
I learnt and have always practiced inverting while rotating, rather than rotating before an inversion. I rotate about once every 2 seconds, so a bit slower then demonstrated, but still forcefully. Also I round up the solution amount to nearest simple to calculate value. Thereby ensuring max coverage during both operations.
Nice video. Always wondered what it looked like inside. Incidentally, my agitation technique is very similar to yours. I often fill the tank to capacity.
I was surprised myself, by the time it takes for the bubbles to pass through the reels. It looks to me that you might get more agitation per inversion with a pause before you upright again. I hope that makes sense.
Nick Thorley it does, yes. I'll have to incorporate that in my method.
Thank you so much for this video, I'm just about to start developing my own film
I am a fan of minimum agitation (semi stand) and longer development for the sake of shadow detail. Also the developer/film combination plays an important role if you get drag marks or not. I am very fine with tanning/hardening developers like Pyro, not only giving me drag free negatives but also highest acutance. Initial agitation is very important for good wetting of the emulsion. For this and the agitations according to semistand I roll the tank in my hands, preventing the density curve from steepening up and grain from becoming large as it likely happens with heavy agitation.
Am I missing something? I believe (perhaps wrongly?) it's best to fill a tank until full, so there is very little air. In which case agitation wont behave in the way shown here.
thank you for reinforcing the point of my video.
Alright, we're on the same page. Thanks for taking the time to make this demo.
very good idea to see that
That was really helpful, thank you.
The best way i have found is not to invert or turn just vibrate the tank with a motor and weight for 5 sec every minute. i got the idea from a friend who uses the technique to polish pebbles. i have been doing it this way for 15 years and get perfect negs every time.
That's interesting. With all the books I have read about hundreds of years of photography I have never heard of using vibration. I can't picture vibration circulating the chemistry. You should make a video, I would be interested to see it.
@@thorleyphotography I wouldn't know how to do a video on here . I do it this way all the time now i just got sick of tanks leaking all the time .When you think of developing paper, people all ways jiggle the tray about it only the same thing. i did the circulating magnet thing and the worked out fine too but not quite as good. Another way is to force Co2 into the bottom of the tank that procedure is well documented and i have done that too and it works really well but it's a bit bothersome . so i just use a fan with a nut and bolt on one of the blades, I am using a 556 timer chip to do the timing for me but it's not really necessary just turn it on/off by the switch. If you get the right oscillation to get little point of water all over the surface of the tank you have got it right. As a test A speaker cone with a bit of sand on it and an audio generator set to about 10 Khz square gives much the same result but irritating noise .
@@thorleyphotography NB: as to "I can't picture vibration circulating the chemistry" given that the water has to move and the tank spiral jumps about a bit would seem to be enough .It does the job for me and doesnt give me high contrast negs (if you don't turn it on to much ) 5 sec every minute is right for me.
There's a lot of variable we haven't mentioned here. I once took a modern film Delta, put it in D76, did three limp almost inversions and went to have lunch. The negatives weren't bad. On the other extreme if you shoot 5x4 and develop in Pyro it's almost a sport. I often use a lithographic film that isn't meant to produce continuous tone, getting this even in Pyro is just about wizardry.
Most useful video
Tis' why you fill the tank up more...?
BTW those marks on your HP5 are not surge marks.
I don´t understand the video, what is the correct way to agitation then and the amount of chemical that should be used?
Correct for me may not be correct for you. If in doubt refer to a reputable source like Ilford Kodak or Ansel Adams.
I aggitate 1st 30 seconds and then 5 seconds for every 30 seconds and have had no issues. I also don't use the minimum recommended on the tank bottom. Rather, I like to round up (35mm: 300 ml vs recommended 290 ml), (4x5: 1000 ml vs 950 ml), (6x6: 500 ml vs 500 ml) because the, ahem, math is easier. That being said, I really like your demo with the tank window as it shows what is happening and it is very revealing, to say the least.
thanks for the comment. Keep enjoying film.
How did you do the tank, cutting my disabled son would like to know thank you
I invert very gently and back over about 8-10 seconds with a few light taps at the end, repeating every 30 seconds (as described on the Patterson tank instructions).
then you are gay
Fill the tank to the correct capacity, which will submerge the film completely. Tap the tank to release any bubbles of air. Inverse continiously for 1 minute, do not use force. At the end of every minute inverse 4 times. Use stop bath, followed by fix.
This results in perfectly developed film, no problems. Use developer suited to the new generation of films, like FX39.
I really wouldn't bother with the "immersion" action. Use 300ml of dev, Agitate for 30s (shake), bang the tank on a hard surface then hand rotate 10 -15 seconds for ever minute, switch direction each minute. You get nice grain for 200-800 speed film.
What exactly is the point of this? I'm studying for the praxis 2 (test to become art teacher) and this is going to be on there but I haven't really heard anyone explain why a person should do this..
This video is an in depth look into agitation so it hasn't covered the basics. It's like when your making a cake you need to stir the mix, or if your making bread you need to kneed the dough.
A pretty good basic comparison Nick. Taking that just a little further: with a lot of baking recipes, if you mix/stir to much you will not get a correct product. It may turn out with a completely different texture than you should. Might be to dense, to dry, etc... So like with developing: if we agitate to long, not long enough; we may not come out with negatives that are just as we want them. But I had never thought of the baking analogy before. Good one...
Nice video. I'm not a fan of this brusque agitation method, it creates a lot of bubbles. The only requirement for a good agitation method is that the developer that's in direct contact with the film is renewed during the specified intervals for the film/developer combo. As long as there's enough developer to cover the spool and about 1/3 more, a wobble movement accompanied by a rotation movement around the spool's axis is perfectly sufficient and it creates virtually zero air bubbles.
You should ALWAYS fill the tank top the top, regardless of how many rolls are in it!
bollocks
your talking out your ass.. READ THE BOTTOM OF YOUR TANK !!
If you have no air in the tank, the liquid won't flow. Try it in a plastic bottle by adding juice concentrate last. You'll see that the liquid just moves with the bottle (mostly). You need some air to help agitation (unless you want stand development with no agitation)
The correct normal way is continuously 1 minute and 10 seconds every minute, not every 30 seconds. Of course there is a different possibility if you want an specific effect, but the correct agitation is that one. There is a lot of bullshit and also stupid experiments, but agitation is something clear and simple
ten seconds every minute would be about the same as two inversions every 30 seconds. Not really worth quibbling over. Thanks for the comment.
inversion is shit.. rotating agitation is the way to go.. ive ALWAYS rotated and NEVER had any problems !