Это видео недоступно.
Сожалеем об этом.
Nat Dex AG is Dead
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 17 авг 2024
- Why the "no bans" format was banned from Pokemon Showdown.
Smogon Threads
National Dex Anything Goes Discussion
www.smogon.com...
DaWoblefet's Liepard RMT
www.smogon.com...
Smogon Tiering Policy Framework
www.smogon.com...
PS! Usage Stats
www.smogon.com...
www.smogon.com...
www.smogon.com...
www.smogon.com...
Revive Cats Counters
pokepast.es/c3...
Tera Shedinja Counters
pokepast.es/6c...
Timestamps
0:00 Intro
0:04 Nat Dex AG
0:20 Gimmicks
0:35 Grievances
1:20 Rebuttal
1:53 Ladder Removed
2:48 Tiering Policy
3:24 Misunderstanding
3:49 End of Discussion
4:07 Do Not Harass Staff
4:12 Outro
RIP [Gen 9] National Dex AG (Nov '22 - Feb '23)
Do NOT harass any Smogon users or staff regarding this decision. Thank you.
Honestly, we know people shouldn't harrass people for anything, but Im certain there should be backlash, an all backlash is deserved in this situation
Why is Miraidon in ag but not Koraidon
Only if i knew that a random guy that made sturdinja strat would kill NatDex AG tier some day
Welp,
how about starting another discussion about the metagame?
@@zachpro5475 because Miraidon is good
"However, words mean things"
Heck, please never leave us, Elo Bandit
I think this decision was dumb as Anything goes was never meant to be a competitive tier. It’s just meant to be a fun tier where everything is allowed no matter how broken it was. The only reason why the tier should have been nuked was if there was no playerbase like SS pure hackmons but this tier clearly had a playerbase even if it was just casuals
A meta game based around never banning or restricting anything ever cannot thrive forever. It was lucky to make it 3 months. There's just too much incentive to make goofy and uncompetitive cheese strats
But it wasn't fun. I read something while I happened to be browsing Reddit (which I don't do often) that said something about having abysmal player retention within the tier as one of or the primary reason for abandoning the tier
@@tdawgmaster1729 So, those who decide to stay somehow don't matter enough? I find that notion to be mind-numbingly abhorrent.
@@bruhbruh4329 Cheese strats? In an uncompetitive tier? *gasp* Really?! *shocked Pikachu face*
I think the problem is in people who can't accept playing against "cheesy strats". Personally, I play so I can pull those exact strats off almost exclusively, but in an almost endless sea of different formats, why deny the fun to those such as myself? Why not go to another format and, you know, just leave me be? Like, I don't even play ReviveCats, I just wanna make some OHKO combos!
@joaquin5796 Because it's not dumb to just have fun, and because there are still many players who would like to play the format in all its imbalanced glory (otherwise we probably wouldn't be having this conversation)?
I brought a fucking recycle leppa berry Trubbish to dozens of NDAG games and didn't encounter Revivecats ONCE. I wanted to use Trubbish so bad and never had a chance.
That trubbish set being legitimately accounted for is a sign that humans have already reached heights we should have never
I have seen a couple ppl using shedinja tera electric but not THAT much and as for revive cats never saw that
Only saw the specific cats using assist but to use population bomb or v-create (this last one ppl also used it in gen 8 lol), not for revive blessing cuz they didnt bring rabsca or pawmot
@@Ultra289 Revive cats were played along with Smeargle actually
@@Horystar he barely appeared too
"The community is rioting" but also "there is no community"
Well played. I hope someone with a brain and integrity can and does revert this horrid decision.
I can usually understand smogon leader decisions, but this one completely baffles me. Their reasonings behind the ban just makes me think they’ve wanted to do this for awhile but never had a reason to.
OK I've seen a lot of confusion from low ladder players, but the simple reason is that it's not fun to play a tier as uncompetitive as Gen 9 ag. Those who play well don't deserve to have the least fun of anyone
And no matter how you spin it the council are those players
Not to mention how the tier leaders were completely evasive about how to implement Dynamax along with terastral. I know there are some implications about how to implement both in the same game, but they simply 'banned' Dynamax in a format with no bans and evaded any further discussion about it and that's it
Smogon said they didnt add dynamax becuase "programming errors" or something like that
What lame excuse is even that lmao
They didnt rly ban it becuase there wasnt any dynamax clause on gen 9 nat dex AG but that excuse they give is so lame
And yeah, they didnt rly give any reply after that
It makes sense to not have it in a Gen 9 tier imo cause like Tera and unlike Z-Moves and Megas, it isn’t bound to items
@@nomongosinthaworld
That doesnt mean it cant be added
dynamax isn’t in gen 9 so why would it be in any gen 9 ladder?
@@fulltimeslackerii8229
Becuase its anything goes national dex....
Megas and z-moves also arent on gen 9 yet you can use them... It just doesnt make sense not to have dynamax when you can use megas and z-moves and the name of the format is "national dex AG"
I never played the tier but I feel like the community should’ve had input before this nuclear decision was made
Given how they're shutting down any conversation about reopening the tier, it's clear that they don't want community input.
I thought smogon always made votes like when they ban Pokémon from a tier
@@Ultra289 They did, but quickbans also go against that. The idea behind quickbans is fair enough, to immediately ban a pokemon or strategy if (in the opinions of the tier leaders), a suspect test would be a waste of time because (again in their opinion) it would clearly reach a supermajority opinion in favor of a ban. The problem lies in that it curtails user input because it's totally opinion based from a limited number of very high tier players, and the vast majority of the actual tier players get no say. The quickbans of Annihilape and Cyclizar in OU come to mind, I saw a lot of players saying they would've preferred a vote, since they believed that a suspect test and vote wouldn't have led to a ban decision.
This is probably my least favorite thing about multiplayer games.
"Oh, you main that character? We nerfed them into the ground."
"That deck that you love playing? We banned half the cards in it."
"You like playing this game? Too bad, we're shutting it down."
I mean, surely there's something to be said for appreciating something great while you have it, but can't we keep that part of the human experience to summers and flowers and away from games?
Backgammon is something like 5,000 years old and I can play that whenever I want. Why can't I play Terastallize Gen 9 1v1, a game less than three months old?
The main reason is because bans almost illogically force diversity and fun in a meta
If you can use a pokemon with infinite speed, armor tails, and a move that give the entire opposing team hyper-Aids theres no reason to use anything else
@@naptotal1651 There is no diversity in Meta games people are using the same Pokemon teams over and over. AG was the one with diversity and unpredictability to the point it was both fun and challenging.
In my opinion, the closure of the tier is a tragedy, propagated over petty problems. The tier was so open, innovative & varied. It deserves to continue.
Okay analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
AG was meant to be just for fun, but here came the fun police...
natdex ubers has already banned:
-assist
-shedinja
-baton pass
-mgengar
-mray
-calyrex
-miraidon
-dynamax (complicated but they're essentially upholding a soft ban by refusing to implement it even with help from outside contributors. see ant's posts in the natdex uber thread)
why would any natdex AG player see this metagame as a good replacement? banning assist/shedinja because they're kinda lame, whatever i could deal with that. but now they're just making ubers into a souped up version of natdex ou. you could argue that ubers has been like that the past few gens, but that's not why natdex ubers was supposedly created. really disappointed with the smogon staff right now.
I got to 1780 and it was the most fun I've had in a while, it's sad that we finally have a god-sweeper with miradon and it cannot be used in any ladder against any pokemon that can viably compete with it. I get why it happened, it wasn't just the thread, the metagame was tough, you would autolose reliably when introduced and a lot of people would consistently complain. Now we have a sterile NATDUbers and people aren't bitching so hard, but any advanced gimmicks being taken off the ladders is just so damn underwhelming.
If you want a tier where you can use Miradon play gen 9 balanced hackmons it's pretty good there
@@MagicalW or natdex bh, we have it freed there too
That's true, I really enjoy the HO meta(I've hit top 500 in many a format but this was the Most fun), but gimmicks were really cool, I'm excited for the dlcs to come out so we have some form of AG again
You are the reason we can't have nice things :[
jokes aside, mad respect bro
Well... there's no elo now. Are you changing your name to just Bandit?
You should be proud, not many could kill a whole tier.
Cannot believed they just nuked their own format. Mind you, I would like to see an off ladder casual mode for more formats because I am sick and tired of Smogon's competitive definition and I want my bloody King's Rock back
It's not very fun to be on the receiving end of uncompetitiveness anyone playing vs a togekiss would tell you so
@@naptotal1651 so then make a ladder for the casuals, maybe without some of the bans like sleep and dupes clause, perhaps we can call it ANYTHING GOES, I don't know.
Kris entire post made me lose braincells while you explained it.
This is really sad to see. Rcats and tera shed weren't broken by any means. They were just something to account for in teambuilding. Sure, it's possible that if you don't play right or don't have the moves to beat them then they dominate you, but that can be said for just about any other metagame threat in just about any tier. Those two team structures were just something you either had to account for or accept a losing matchup against. Even if you're just throwing random mons together to create what looks like a moshpit rather than a team you should still account for these team structures. Some of the counters weren't even unreasonable within the metagame itself. A lot of standard/semistandard mons like Zekrom, Zacian, Koraidon, Miraidon, NDM, mray, and Caly shadow, Ho-oh, defensive pdon and more all countered or at least posed a threat to tera shed. For rcats the counters were slightly limited but there are enough of them that are staple ndag mons that it wasn't unreasonable(In my opinion) to account for them in the tier.
"No community" my ass. My timezone is wack(I wake up when most sleep) and I still always found enough people to play with. Before this gen's ladder shut down I was doing pretty ok at around 1500ish playing casually. There were so many people to fight against and I don't think I ever played the same person twice. Last gen there were a bunch of people too. Also, the ladder of top 500 was pretty strong with the minimum elo being something around 1670 just to get in, showing that there were enough people in the tier to warrant players grinding elo to stay on top.
I really hope that PS! realises their error and reimplements NDAG back onto the main servers as it was a joy to play. I don't think there was any valid reason to take it out in the first place. Until then, I guess I'll just play randbats or another natdex tier.
Personally, I would like it if the cats plus shedinja were banned but that's just because I dislike playing against them. They're perfectly fine strategies that aren't overpowered, just annoying. Plus, bans in NDAG would be idiotic as the whole point of NDAG is to not have bans(aside from stuff like endless battle clause)
Exactly the same thing I was thinking when I read the "no community thing"
Like at late night it took less than 20 sec to find me a match lmao
Bro people were getting to 1600s with their literal in-game team. Elo is a terrible metric to refer to in a vacuum as any kind of skill display. The only reason the minimum standard to get top 500 was almost 1700 elo is because the quality of players on ndag are so terrible that having the bare minimum of pokemon fundamentals is enough to succeed for a long period of time, and that ndag is extremely popular with casual players who just want to play with their 6 favorite pokemon that often includes something banned like mega ray.
There's a reason why ndag is by the most active place where kids trying to emulate temp6t go, because it's a literal breeding ground of sub-zero iq people bringing crap like 6 zacians with only weak special attacks or whatever other nonsense
I didn't even think of teravolt/turboblaze as ways to get around shedninja lol. I was just using mold breaker excadrill.
@@Ultra289 No no but remember NDAG apparently has no community so oopsie daisies I guess it needs to be shut down 😔
@@OmolonFluidDynamicsEnjoyer Oh yeah those are both really good to keep the consistency of a team so that you don't need to use weaker mons. Also NDM's sunsteel strike or ultra necrozma's Photon Geyser were both good options
What an incredibly dumb decision. Absolutely nothing was lost by leaving the tier up. Smogon OU is usually handled well but some of the smaller tiers have some real idiots running them.
@joaquin5796 How many interested players is enough? I'd get it if there was, like, only 25 people playing it or something, but there has to be at least around some 100 eager players, right? And even if it *was* only 25 players, why take the fun away from them?
@@gholdenbro1675 Say hello to Scrubquotes for me!
YOU KILLED IT!
How?
This... Feels wrong.
Like I don't like this.
This has certainly affected my Trust with the people behind Smogon and I don't know what to think really...
IF IT'S CALLED "ANYTHING GOES" THEN WHY ARE PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT SOMETHINGS GOING!?!!?!?!?
Because It's Dumb And Uncompetitive
@@user-wn6ij5in1y Then why won't they just change the name?
@@user-wn6ij5in1y
It's FUN.
It's a GAME.
GAMES are supposed to be FUN.
I have been wanting Nat Dex Ubers for so long, still sucks that Nat Dex AG had to go
So... a handful of folks got butt hurt over "anything goes," not playing the way they wanted, complained and now no one gets to have fun?.. yeah sounds like smogon.
Elo bandit has never been a more accurate username
Since we haven't seen Assist and Revival Blessing in the same game we can't say it was intended for it to call the move, One simple sulotion without any bans would be to prevent Assist from calling Revival Blessing by adding it to the pool of moves that can't be called, Shedinja might still thrive but from the video I assume that isn't an issue to the same extent
All moves have a tag to say if they can be called by Assist. Even in Scarlet/Violet, where the actual move Assist doesn't exist. Revival Blessing has the tag.
If you look into the code, there is a section that defines whether or not a move can be called by assist.
And as gamefreak carries over such left over code even if they "remove" a move, every new move has to either be callable by assist or not, and revival blessing has the callable tag :]
All you’d need to beat Shedinja is a sound move on a Mold-Breaker. Even giving Pinsir, Throh, or Sawk the move Round could work
@@mangosteak I do understand that it is technicly callable but that's more so for the fact that they haven't been keeping the list up to date, Unless there's a new Gen 9 move uncallable by Assist to show that it was in fact intended
@@voguefurret The Starmobile-exclusive moves are apparently marked as uncallable by Assist, though that's probably just because they are intended for a very specific story-only function, and so they just set all of the move calling flags to uncallable to be absolutely sure. I haven't heard of any other moves in Gen 9 being marked as uncallable by Assist though.
This now leaves one of my favourite pokemon ever, mega ray, completely inaccessible, as well as Cshadow, and miraidon has absolutely no counterplay in normal AG so it fucks that up too.
I actually feel really bad about it.
I have been playing AG since gen 7. And i believe revive cats and undyininja are extremely anoying. But i think AG can be competitive and it saddens me that its no longer even an option.
I had just like 1500 to 1600 ELO
mega rayquaza is literally my favorite mon and now it's unplayable in gen 9 wow
Me watching smogon's shit structure system collapse under its own premise
it was my best format and i was really confused as to why it was gone but im kinda sad now that its gone for no reason, hopefully itll be back soon
to think that all our efforts in coming up with cool ideas to play around the metagame have gone up in smoke and flames. hope they reconsider and bring back the format
Damn, NatDex AG was my favourite tier to play. I never played it competitively so i didnt have much of a problem with shedinja, just used a mega tyranitar and it worked about 99% of the time. Either that or predict the most obvious shed tail to ever.
"Do not harass any Smogon staff, but here's the fucker who did it"
;)
Okay, so it's just the Smogon mods being ignorant and two people whining about a broken unbalanced game like Pokemon being broken and unbalanced. Thanks for shedding light on this matter.
I've seen many are leaving showdown due to this decision, and a really hope they lose activity because is not fair to make such a decision so suddenly and without ask the community
Smogon in a nutshell
No one is losing sleep lol
Hate to break it to you but nobody cares about 1100 player TinyTim38934 quitting pokemon showdown because they can't play ndag lol. If you don't sign up to play in tournaments for the tier you play, nobody really cares whether you stick around or not, since you contribute nothing to the actual development of top level gameplay. Smogon have been around using sims since 2004, and have more people playing their current sim than ever, a bunch of showdown ash ketchum's quitting their current sim is irrelevant to them lol.
Who wants to play in a tier with strategies like this though? Why do you want games hundreds of turns long with constantly reviving mons? The Shedinja and Cats stuff was funny for 5 minutes but the tier is just cancer to play
I don't really hate shedinja strategy you could run a roar mon or moldbreaker but the combination of both plus the standard broken shit was just to much
Becuase it is actually fun, the shedinja and cats were just gimmicks anyways
@Ultra289 Idk I played that ladder for a bit and both of those teams were common
@@Ultra289 Cats is legit playstyle, they can also brings cat counter's counter and be more cancerous with more win rates.
I never had a problem with Shedinja,in fact i used a Sandstorm Shedinja to kill another Shedinjas surprisingly and also Set my boy Houndstone to kill 4 mons instead of 3.
Whatever be the reasoning behind a decision, some authority trying to shut down any discussion happening on the subject of their decision is clearly an indication of malice.
this makes me extremely upset even though i had no attachment to the tier whatsoever
More like natdex nothing goes amirite
So this is what happened to my favourite format. I've been a Nat Dex AG player for YEARS. And I am quite upset.
Just thinking about the revive cats vs funbro comparison, there's a clear difference where the goal of revive cats is still to get all 6 of the opponent's pokemon to 0 hp (but taking hundreds of turns), while funbro is about seeing how high the turn counter can go. Still, it sucks that its counter takes up a whole team slot, and overall it's not fun to play against or as. People playing showdown want to win, but they also want to have fun, so when such a relatively mindless and unengaging tactic like revive cats has such hegemony over the tier, less people want to play it.
Removing the ladder feels like an extreme decision, like the admins thought "let's make this one change so we never have to see a revive cats thread ever again", instead of thinking about how to keep a tier like this with its creative experimentation. If there's already a population playing nat dex ag pre-revive cats, then surely it's worth having a tier that's the same, but no revive cats. What's the cost of keeping a ladder for a tier? $1500 and 50 work-hours a week?
I just started playing PS! today, and I’ve been so annoyed with the fact that I can’t use my favorite Pokémon in the same team. I came across NDAG earlier, and I’m very sad that it was killed. This sucks so bad, I want to make teams with whoever I want!!
Terastallization truly is an abomination.
Amazing video by the way !
This is such a bizarre situation. It feels like staff felt pressured in some way to make this decision. The only logical explanations I can think for that would be a.) increase server space for other metagames, or b.) outcry from the community. Neither make much sense at all; a.) the format was small enough that the negligible server space gained would be severely outweighed by the negative public opinion, and b.) it’s been shown that public opinion on the format is not low at all. If these complaints were happening behind closed doors, then it would either come from higher up in the council (which isn’t a lot of people) or from very influential people in the community (the tier doesn’t seem popular enough to garner attention from these figures). I hope, purely because of my curiosity, it comes out why this decision was made.
Smogon moment
And there goes my wonderful team that I hand-crafted to beat cats and shedinja, only with electric types.
Assist calling Revival Blessing is mostly only a thing since:
-Assist deleted from Gen 8 meant no one at GF cared to update the Assist Exception List.
This sole reason why it's a thing.
IMO taking NDAG down as a proper Meta was OK, issue was how some changes ingame lead to some questionable things to trickle down on NDAG.
Stuff like Ability Patch allowing change to Normal Ability leading to FissureChamp, TeraElectric/TeraSteel Shed, RevivalCat...
People probably just had enough of it and so NDUbers had to be made just to counter this issue.
Nope
The ability patch only allows you to turn a pokemons normal ability into its hidden ability, not the other way around.
And as fissure is a tm in gen 1 and 2 and therby a transfer move on matchamp, it can only be used if matchamp has steadfast.
@@mangosteak ahem.
In Gen 9, it was changed so it can allow a Pokémon with a Hidden Ability to change it to it's Normal Ability.
And also NDAG assumes Machamp from Gen 1 and 2 VC can be transferred into SV.
Read the Bulbapedia page you dumbass
@@mangosteak you can turn a Pokémon’s hidden ability to a normal one in gen 9, but you cannot in gen 8.
So uh. That tier. Was the only one I played.
Welp. Time to learn Gen 1 OU!
Meanwhile metronome battle has a ladder 💀
And fucking hackmons
I just wanted to use dynamax on gen 9 Pokémon and fight against teras (and viceversa) 😩😩
And now I get the tier removed 😩😩
Why do ppl on smogon not understand that nat dex AG is not OU or uber, this is just a format to have fun
looks like someone couldn’t handle the neutron style
The reasoning behind this decision was just wrong, hope eventually it comes back
Thanks for your insight. Tbh I never even fully understood why the nat dex tiers were built the way they are to begin with and they were bound to be issues. Why can a Shedinja even terastalize when it legally never could? Why can a Mega Blastoise use Shell Smash when it legally never could? A bunch of the problems with the nat dex tiers would be solved if generational gimmicks weren't effectively retconned into the current generation. But that's just my two cents.
The generational gimmicks were kept around because a multitude of what are effectively completely new Pokemon in all but their name are tied to them, and NatDex's entire raison d'etre is that it is a preservation of Pokemon that were cut from the game by Game Freak culling the available roster themselves.
Wow. What a horrendous decision to be made. Imagine shutting down a tier because it got more popular and TWO people complained.
You are a legend!!! First poketuber in history to be responsible for a whole tier being taken away. 👏 👏 👏
you hate to see mods make large-scale decisions without properly understanding the state of what they moderate. my best wishes to the nat dex AG community. sucks to see one of the most creative metas [that I know of] get bodied over the skill issue of 2 forum users..
A prime example of Mods being as toxic as their reputation makes them seem
I'm gonna miss NDAG. Fun times. I don't even think revival cats and tera electric shedninja were all that bad. Particularly tera electric shedninja. I love mold breaker mon's for a reason, and sandstorm fucks them up badly.
That's a shame. People enjoyed it. Fuck the haters. They can go elsewhere but they literally chose not to. We gotta learn who to listen to and who not to.
There are so many jank ass weird metas out there. They deserve to be here.
The tier didn't have player retention meaning that people didn't enjoy this shit
I mean there's no *actual* plays happening that make it deserves the ladder. Because its ndag. Full of temp6t kid watchers and RU team that has dt/minimize mon all over the place.
Sad it's gone and massively disagree with the decision making here, but glad I at least got to top 100 once before it all ended.
The gimmicks were awesome and if it ever comes back or you move to another tier I'll be looking forward to seeing what you come up with there.
Pretty sad to see the format go, since it's (as far as I can tell) pretty much the only tier where you can build your team like it's some sort of YuGiOh combo deck
We needed more Mold Breaker First Impression Haxorus
That made me so upset that is was removed I always play National Dex AG it's so dumb they got rid of it
Honestly man I just miss Gen 8 National Dex AG in a way. Dynamax was this weird perfect storm where with the power of Ubers + a funny rock you could stop BP chain links before they could snowball, not give a single shit about the evasion stat, and be in a fun as hell sandbox meta.
Gen 9 turned my favorite metagame into an unplayable one, and I both respect and *loathe* the Cats for it. I don't think NatDex Ubers will be nearly as fun without the stupid knowledge checks, frankly, but I'll simply take my leave then
I'm keeping negative opinions to myself, but I gotta say, the lil mans holding the poke puff in the thumbnail MADE my day. Great video. Cant wait to see more from you
Honestly i'm glad Natdex ubers exists now, since before, you had no choice but to brave AG if you wanted to use smth banned from natdex ou, and obviously not everyone wants to go to the wild west that is natdex AG
What's kinda sad is though most of my teams are legal in Ubers since they dont break any clause, it's less fun since people actually play Ubers to win with Uber grade teams, where as the first 500 elo of AG is memes, sweep attempts, sweaty newbies who cant beat a bad team with good mons, and more.
I've been becoming more and more disillusioned with how authoritarian Smogon can be for the entire non-VGC competitive community as of late - I understand why they have the system they do, I just think it's much less than ideal and imo it's pretty fucking lame to just nuke a whole ass tier because you didn't like some of sets people were running
Edit: THE SETS WEREN'T EVEN THAT CENTRALIZING, AND THE TIER IS LITERALLY CALLED ANYTHING GOES FFS
They didn't nuke the tier. You can literally challenge anyone to play NatDex AG right now, exactly how it was before the ladder was removed. The only thing nuked was the ladder, and ladders aren't kept around just for the sake of keeping them around.
Ladders are kept around when there is an actual high level community playing these games, which necessitates an environment for them to practice outside of custom organized games. NatDex AG didn't have that. The collective high level playerbase all abandoned it once NatDex Ubers became a thing, leaving the only people playing it, random ladder players who are not the demographic Smogon gives a crap about. They are a tournament based competitive community first and foremost, casual players who just sit on the ladder all day and don't participate in tournaments are literal second-class citizens in terms of who they care about.
Nat dex AG is a format that does not want to exist. Maybe we need Nat dex almost anything goes...
That's Natdex Ubers.
Nooooooooooooooooooo! Don't get me wrong, the revival cats was annoying but it was still satifiying to come up with counters to it and even just mess around with meme teams. What a stupid decision to take down the Nat Dex AG ladder.
You did it!! Yayyyy
GG
To me it sounds like even if nat dex AG didn't get nuked it would have died anyways unless major change happened because revival cats sound like absolute hell to fight but this doesn't change just how poorly the moderation handled this problem.
Thats hilarious, thanks for the video
Wow things really heating up in the Liepard fandom
Remember in gen 8 when we were worried no guard fissure Machamp would make AG unplayable? Yeah, good times.
Though even as an avid Liepard fan, I do agree with the decision. Tier was goofy af lmao
Also so many of these comments reek of never having seriously tried to ladder the tier. Lemme tell you, I got to rank 1 pretty much completely for free with revive cats, routinely beating teams with 2 or 3 extreme speed users, only losing to stuff like Comfey and scarf GWeezing teams that get swept by actual ubers, it's genuinely the closest to an auto-win strat any pokemon metagame has ever had. Despite being was fun while it lasted, I can't see how anyone other than me was having fun, especially new players who just wanted to use ubers and had no other place to do so. And at some point most of the playerbase was just revive cat users and the tier became a forced tie generator. Funny stuff, but genuinely miserable tier.
Fissure machamp was never a problem
I feel like natdex really only worked in gen 8, but now since there's over 1000 Pokémon in the Pokédex, things are getting really crowded. I'm starting to understand why dexit is a thing now.
Honestly the problem is how poorly they moderators handled the situation it's kinda laughable how badly they handled it to be honest.
I will say this though: Game Freak did in fact not intend Assist to call ReviBlessing.
You know why? Well first off Assist is not in the fucking game, but furthermore it is "being uncallable by Assist" that is the checkbox, not the other way around.
NONE of the Gen 9 moves are uncallable by Assist, because they didn't bother checking a box that is unused anyway.
tldr the Assist - Revival Blessing interaction doesn't actually exist and thus shouldn't be possible
Smogon thread on the topic - www.smogon.com/forums/threads/assist-should-not-be-allowed-to-select-revival-blessing.3712222/
@@EloBandit I guess it being called by Sleep Talk is a pretty good point, though Sleep Talk doesn't have the same list of uncallables as Assist (ex. Assist can't call Protect but Sleep Talk can)
Then again yeah Revival Blessing is flagged as callable by Assist but since Assist is not in the game, I don't feel like it's even remotely intended
Hopefully GF adds based Delcatty as well as Assist in DLC and fix their mistake
This was inevitable with the ever growing expansion of Pokémon and moves
I wondered why it wasn’t there
Taken from the gods from r/Stunfisk
Elo Bandit is certainly someone who knows his stuff about competitive but this sounds like a very biased and honestly kind of salt-filled video. I'll address some of the things he's saying.
>"I killed it"
Taking a bit too much credit here, sure his videos on the strategy might have made them a bit more popular but they existed wayyyyy before he made those
>Two people didn't like this
There were way more. Just because only two speak up in the thread itself doesn't mean those are the literal only two people that don't think NDAG was a cesspool of uncompetitiveness this gen. Stuff like talks in the room, discord etc. also count. It's pretty much factual that a lot of big competitive names either just didn't play NDAG or played it despite its faults but still very much felt it was the worst incarnation of an AG format so far.
>Several community members responded with disagreement
They mostly disagreed on the fact that it should be banned, which they are correct in because NDAG indeed doesn't ban anything (save literal endless battles), period. However, this disagreement on whether it should be banned doesn't actually mean these factors are healthy in the slightest.
>Game Freak did intend for Assist to call Revival Blessing
Let's get this out of the way, this is 100% a coding oversight because Game Freak didn't care to remove that flag and anyone who legitimately believes RBlessing would be Assistable if Assist still existed is clowning. Yes, because we code ND mechanics in a way that is consistent with how the code is written, our hands are tied and we technically have to make it Assistable. The same way we make Slowbro-Galar able to Mega because Mega Evolution is, according to the game code, based on dex number even though we also have Pokémon Go showing Glowbro isn't actually intended to Mega. I do not disagree that based on prior precedent, we should make RB Assistable. But to pretend Game Freak "intended" this is laughable, they never even intended the moves to coexist.
>Pretending the community does not exist is not the way
The ladder community barely counts. A good 80% (at least) of NDAG players are kids spamming their ingame team or people loading up with RU teams that so happen to have a Double Team mon etc. Those have never been the people Smogon catered to and never will be.
>Thread participation was extremely low. And sure there was talk in the rooms and on the discord but it was way lower than before and the general sentiment among the people who actually took the format seriously was that it was awful to play and many players left for that reason. Like our good mod maharg said (probs not verbatim but it boiled down to this) "NDAG was always broken but this time around it's not even fun".
Kris exaggerated saying the community didn't exist at all but the large majority of what you'd call the "community" couldn't care less that this stew of matchup fishy bullshit was axed from the ladder. Sure the people who wanted to use Double Team Infernape and Baton Pass Espathra on the same team don't have a tier anymore but we can't exactly keep a ladder up and hope only the bad players use it without anyone loading up with actually good teams to ruin things.
>Normally when leaders lose interest in the metagame they promote someone else
The thing is that pretty much nobody who was competent wanted to take over this shitstorm of a format. And that's quite telling, considering NDAG's no-ban policy means there's actually a lot less effort required to "lead" it than most other formats.
>Revival Blessing is a viable and competitive strategy.
Revivecats was objectively bad for the metagame. Yes, it was beatable with prep. But it was a massive matchup fish and you were often forced to dedicate multiple teamslots to beat every variant of it. Sure, EKiller Arceus and Mega Ray were viable outside of that, but most good Revivecats teams packed counterplay to those two and the more specific counterplay after that was rarely good for things besides beating Revivecats. For the record, this guy's video on the strategy listed the "universal revivecats counter" as a fucking Recycle Trubbish (which ftr didn't beat Xurkitree variants).
>This form of extreme matchup fishing is, by precedent, considered uncompetitive. It's the whole entire reason Baton Pass got booted in most formats.
In short, was it viable? Yes. Was it competitive? Definitely not. In fact the optimal Revivecats strategy (because battles lasted so long) was to play multiple games at the same time on ladder, which was doable because the teams were so incredibly easy to pilot, and if you ran into a matchup where you could go "yep this guy is gonna beat me" you just forfeit and move onto the next whereas your other four tabs sit on turn 223. I don't know about you but a ladder where this is a legitimately functional way to get to the top does not sound like a ladder that should be taken seriously in terms of competitive.
>It does not reduce the effect of player decisions and it certainly doesn't render more skillful play irrelevant
This is factually false. 90% of the battle against Revivecats happens in the builder, whether you put the counters to it on your team or not. And these counters to the more advanced versions tend to be ridiculously specific (again, fucking Trubbish). You can be the literal most skilled player of the tier and still lose to Revivecats on matchup with an otherwise solid team because you didn't include a counter to it.
If all of what he were saying here was true, Revivecats would never have been banned to NDAG in the first place. And yes, AG formats do expect to deal with braindead matchup fishing strategies like this without having to nuke the ladder--after all they deal with Baton Pass chains. But Revivecats counters were even more specific than Baton Pass chain counters and more importantly, the teams were actually very common--whereas BPass was a strategy you ran into maybe 1 in 50 games, you were running into Revivecats on ladder quite often so everyone was very aware of the awful impact it had on the ladder. If everyone had a silent agreement not to use it then this wouldn't have been a problem the same way BPass wasn't a large scale problem for previous AG iterations but we obviously can't really expect that.
>You're not just rolling dice, you're playing a complex game...
Again, not everything that's uncompetitive is necessarily RNG. Pure matchup fish has been labeled uncompetitive by precedent before.
>You may not enjoy playing against these strategies, but that doesn't mean they're not perfectly legitimate and competitive
A strategy being unenjoyable to play against indeed doesn't mean it's not competitive, but again, Revivecats was already uncompetitive for other reasons.
>An Assist ban was clearly never on the table
This is indeed the whole issue. The tier would be playable if Assist was banned, but NDAG by nature literally cannot have bans, so the only outcome is an unplayable tier that deserves no ladder.
>zero people were asking to get rid of tera electric shedinja
Oh plenty of low ladder players that Elo earlier in the video insisted counted as "the community" very much did
>There was never any substantial movement to ban anything
Again, because the good players knew that AG literally couldn't ban anything so trying to start a "substantial movement" to ban anything was useless, but that doesn't mean they can't still notice the format is garbage and straight-up leave.
>I pushed the gimmicks too far
This man really just has too much of a god complex at this point implying he's singlehandedly responsible for the ladder being garbage enough to the point it got removed lmao
I never claimed to have invented Revival Blessing Liepard teams or Tera Shedinja. People were using these strategies the very day SV dropped, and I can't produce a gimmick video in that short a timeframe. Instead of pumping out a weak version of the strategy asap, I spent six weeks fine-tuning both gimmicks on the ladder, often against people with similar ideas.
The usage spikes of Liepard, Shedinja, Ditto, Smeargle, Cyclizar, Ho-Oh, Mega Gengar, Gothitelle, and Tyranitar were impossible to miss once I released the videos.
ruclips.net/video/LVweo5PlpcY/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/09m3SMoSfgY/видео.html
Anyone playing ladder could expect to run into one of my teams within two or three searches, regardless of their current elo.
A minority of people complaining about a tier (on Smogon, Discord, PS, or wherever) is not grounds for its removal. Those people can simply play different metagames and let others enjoy things. No one is making anyone play anything they don't want to.
Smogon thread on the legitimacy of Assist calling Revival Blessing - www.smogon.com/forums/threads/assist-should-not-be-allowed-to-select-revival-blessing.3712222/
Your description of the NDAG community only matches the very low ladder. There was a playerbase that took the tier seriously and laddered competitively. Had the leadership reached out for any help regarding maintaining recources and hosting tours, the metagame wouldn't have been axed.
Revive Cats requiring specific counters isn't unhealthy. Everything requires specific counters. Trubbish was just the most amusing one I found, its obviously not the only one: pokepast.es/c3749daedff0a9ca
The expectation is that teams built for NDAG have at least one form of counterplay against Revive Cats. Extreme Speed is one of the most splashable moves in the tier. Games come down to how well these counters are utilized by the player.
Beating teams with zero priority does not make a strategy uncompetitive. There's also nothing inherently uncompetitive about playing long stall games as opposed to quick offense games. Nat Dex AG was not unplayable, it was extremely fun for those of us who laddered it regularly and figured out ways around the common gimmick archetypes.
Trying to ban anything in AG is useless, glad we agree. People wanting a ban in a tier without bans is still not grounds for a nuclear response.
The death of NDAG was caused by three groups: people like me who spammed the strategies on ladder, people like Graham who complained about it, and the leadership who did not care enough to maintain the metagame.
The funny thing it that tapu lele is a great mon and can slow down, if not outright counter revive cats
how?
Psychic Terrain does not counter assist
@@mangosteak but guess what it counters! oops, it's prankster!
@@namkwal Psychic Terrain only prevents targeted priority attacks. Assist, Safeguard, Substitute, Rest, etc. are not prevented by Psychic Terrain.
Great play! Love you, Elo
my biggest issue is that there was nothing wrong if you just knew what to do, if you had a problem with how the tier was played you could just not play it but i guess it's whatever,l i'll miss my nat dex miraidon though
I am not going to go harass anyone, but the way you say it, it seems that pretty much every reason given to get rid of Nat Dex AG was not particularly true. Which, I don't know, if all the reasons leading to a decision are not true, the decision taken based on those reasons should probably be undone. Is there anything in my logic I'm missing?
How exactly do we know that Assist can/should be able to call Revival Blessing? Assist has been removed from games since gen 8 and Revival Blessing was introduced in gen 9. Meaning that these moves have never been in contact with one another in an official capacity
Because Assist has a list of moves it's allowed to call and Revival Blessing was explicitly added to it...
@@theapexsurvivor9538 Was it explicitly added to it, or do things have to explicitly be removed? I understood this as just being bit flags in move data, which probably default to callable by Assist and they don't care to adjust it now that the move isn't around (unless it's something that they decide as a whole should be not be callable by anything under any circumstances).
(After further research, I have found that it has to be explicitly added to a blacklist.)
At least we finally have nat Dex Ubers, have wanted this for so long. I enjoyed last gens nat Dex ag, was very playable and very competitive, once you get high on the ladder and above the meme teams and gimmicks it required a lot of skill like any other tier. I'm sad to see AG go but it was definitely uncompetitive imo. Not saying that revive cats and tera shedinja aren't competitive, just saying imo these gimmicks suck the fun out of the tier and required less skill than if they didn't exist and were uncompetitive. Be interesting to see what happens in the future.
There goes my ability to make theme teams.😢
People don't like competitive Pokemon. If they did they wouldn't ban anything that makes a game slow enough to actually think about.
You took the easy way out bro, literally just make an Assist Clause like I said on the forums, one of the 'two people' who didn't like this, apparently lmao.
This ain't a good look, more like EgoBandit, Jesus.
Me when I'm suggesting to add a clause to an anything goes meta (the meta is meant to have no rules outside of sets being legal).
@Memories The Goddess so instead there is NO meta. What an improvement. There are already clauses in AG as well, this would simply be a new one, a 2nd clause is surely better than a removed tier no?
It's actually really hard to create a new clause, especially for a niche edge case like this. You'd be incredibly hard-pressed to justify it especially in a tier with as few bans and clauses as possible.
@Elo Bandit I'm not sure much justification would be needed if the alternative is nuking the tier, at least to the playerbase.
That said, this is your forté not mine, I don't know the behind the scenes quirks that might not be obvious to someone not on the inside. So maybe there is some aspect of this I'm not taking into account, but from where I'm standing, it seems arbitrary that it was removed.
dont forget, the jannies do it for free
Add this to the reasons I can't take Smogon seriously
how do we know assist+revival blessing is an intended combination? if they were never in the same game you wouldnt know for sure right?
banning in AG is weird, but i find it most weird that all these mechanics exist alongside that could never be actually played in game, i guess nuking the tier makes sense because that doesnt demand a ruling over the sets and its competiveness, but rules that the mechanics have become too obscure to logically combine in a format
www.smogon.com/forums/threads/assist-should-not-be-allowed-to-select-revival-blessing.3712222/
thats more than clear, thank you!
wait...Why Miraidon is in ag? What did I miss?
Apparently when it has z moves it goes entirely out of control hard
And now Ash Greninja is un-playable fuck
So much for "Anything Goes" 🤷♂
What a weird story...
Awesome video.