How Pitch-Doctoring Became Baseball's Open Secret
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- TWITTER - @BaseballHSTRN
_____________________________
Over the past few weeks, the issue of alleged widespread cheating on the part of Major League pitchers has been brought to the spotlight by fans, writers, and players. Some of the top pitchers in the game have been accused of using substances ranging from sunscreen to glue in order to increase their spin rate.
While this is definitely a problem for MLB, it is not the first time pitchers have used foreign substances in order to gain an advantage over hitters. In this video, we'll dive into the history of pitch-doctoring in Major League Baseball, and if what's happening today is really so much worse than what pitchers did in the past.
_____________________________
SOURCES
pastebin.com/W...
_____________________________
MUSIC
"A Little Faith - Bitter Suite" - Kevin MacLeod
"Intrigue" - Max Surla_Media Right Productions
"Solo Cello Passion" - Doug Maxwell_Media Right Productions
"When Johnny Goes Marching" - E's Jammy Jams
"Web Weaver's Dance" - Asher Fulero
A Little Faith - Bitter Suite by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. creativecommon...
Source: www.amazon.com/...
Artist: incompetech.com/
I thought the video had frozen when Gerrit Cole started answering that simple question. Instead it was his brain searching for an exit to a word maze.
Actually, it’s because he is a self-entitled prima donna with no self awareness or personality. He is Nuke Laloosh if he had never encountered Annie and Crash.
@@andrewyarosh1809 😂😂😂
Heres a list of pitchers that we know aren’t using substances:
And thats the list thanks for reading
All knuckleballers for sure, because that would defeat the purpose
That’s a long list I was barely able to finish it
DeGrom?
@@jamespersonalaccount7616 true i did think of that but who knows he could just keep using it for all we know
@@jamespersonalaccount7616 he is probably doing it too. I mean look at his stuff. The higher spin rate. Could increase velocity of pitches.
There is a fantastic book about Carl Mays and Ray Chapman called "The Pitch That Killed." Highly recommended.
Great book BTW
a must
Who asked
With the high K's, low BA, the prevalent use of sticky stuff, and the CBA negotiations coming up, I really wonder how we'll back at this period of baseball at the end of the decade.
That's an interesting question. Will MLB be able to make it through these years relatively unscathed? Or will this period end up tainted by scandal and labor disputes, like the steroid era before it?
I am pessimistic.
shohei ohtani
Finally someone who actually acknowledges how old this history and doesn’t just make a massive clickbait title about X player cheating
The whole issue is mostly bs anyway. Pitch movement has increased because the properties of the ball that MLB has been altering over the past few years to combat the homerun spike also play a large role in pitch movement.
The hype over spin rate is just the result of a handful of pitchers who actually understand the physics of pitching realizing that movement was going to increase from changes to the ball and that statcast's method of determining spin rate sees any movement increase as spin rate increase (even if the source of the movement actually causes spin rate decrease.) In reality it takes huge spin rate increases to have a significant effect on pitch movement. Much more than human anatomy, mechanics, and grip substances are capable of producing. However, with statcast's flawed spin rate calculation making it seem like spin rate is the reason for the increased movement and sticky stuff causing noticeable (but ultimately insignificant) increases to to that rate, it didn't take long for those pitchers to realize that spin rate could be inflated with sticky stuff for use in contract negotiations (despite being a mostly meaningless stat.)
Once pitchers adapt their mechanics for the loss of grip (assuming they can avoid injury while doing so on the fly mid-season) the only differences will be a little less accuracy/consistency (for example, sticky stuff can't really make a curve break more but it does reduce the chances of hanging one/increase how often a pitcher achieves the full amount of break possible with their mechanics) and possibly some minor velocity dip as well. Movement won't change much and might actually increase as MLB has plans for further changes to the ball over the next few years.
@@possumverde what You’re saying is that spin rate really doesn’t do anything. right?
you can just call out Baseball Doesn't Exist by name
Substances on the ball or not I think it would be a good idea to teach players how to hit again. Everyone wants the HR now.
Amen. But. You gotta get rid of over exaggerated shifts!!
99% of pitchers are throwing 100mph.. all game long.. this is a different game than when a hitter like Gwynn played.. if pitchers are gonna be so overpowering, the shifts should be limited in someway.
I agree. No one plays small ball anymore.
I think I've seen that Neikro technique of throwing away evidence on Cops.
Of course, Niekro is maybe a good example of doctoring the ball, but a bad example of someone looking for extra spin rate :D
@@gwaptiva Niekro is only a good example of how to appear terribly suspicious while not doing anything wrong. Ball doctoring can only hurt a knuckleballer. Releasing your primary pitch with your fingernails is a valid reason to carry a nail file in-game and to the mound.
that garret cole presser was so funny
exactly. literally lol'd the first time i saw it.
Batting average is down and K rate up because there are only about three hitter in MLB that know what a two strike swing is.
Ban the sticky stuff and increase the core size of the ball so it flies less far and spins slower. More balls in play, less strikeouts.
Put ball on tee to speed game up and snacks after the game!
@@dalepress1581 Throw in some 10c beer while you're at it. It'll be a riot!
The thumbnail is so good that it produces happiness within my soul.
I didn’t know your soul could get any happier
This is a great channel. Thanks for your videos. Lots of common-sense insights into the relationship between today's "sabermetric" era and the earlier history.
"Sticky Stuff" is different than the spitter. That stuff is used to improve the grip to add spin. The spitter (and the greaser and the shine ball, etc.) was used to move the spin, not increase it. Also, some pitchers used it to cause downspin to make the ball drop.
This entire issue would just go away if MLB would just use the baseballs that are used in Japan; Japanese baseballs already have a slightly tacky substance on them to improve grip on the ball.
Excellent re-telling of the story of doctoring the baseball in just over 10 mins. Thanks for such great content!
Can't we just like...move the mound back? That seems to be way easier than turning umps into the TSA.
So, according to that rule, if you do "not damage, deface or discolor the ball", you _can_ apply foreign substances to the ball. Does adding "a colourless goop" onto the ball discolour it? Deface it? Damage it? And if that's an unintended side-effect?
Man your content is so good, keep it up!
5:15 he got a point
He has**
I’ve been talking about this for years the only reason it’s being but in the light is because the tacky substance is improving and the baseballs this season are deadened so less hits less balls in play
Awesome recap of the history of doctoring the balls!
My personal opinion... You cheat and get caught, you're fired. Doesn't matter the sport. Cheating of any sort, in any sport, should be a legitimate and legal reason to be released, and just no longer a select number of games suspended. If you have to cheat to do your job... Should you have that job in the first place?
'67, '68, '72 and '20 are definitely not deadball era seasons. 2020 was an asterisk half season anyways.
Well then it’s a good thing I didn’t say they were
@@BaseballHistorian 9:39-9:47.
'Worse than the deadball era'. All the years I mentioned, aren't deadball era.
Just a thought: When outfield fences got moved closer in, players grew bigger, the ball became livelier, and strike zones got smaller, how could anyone else expect pitchers to respond another way?
Integrity?
@@reedr7142 tegridy
Obviously cheating is the only option for pitchers. Just like using steroids was the only answer for hitters. hehe
Watching that replay of the Orioles pitcher teaching for the spidertack is hilarious. His fingers were straight up stuck to his glove.
Don Sutton’s comeback is funny, self aware and interesting. That Yankees pitcher is why the game is boring today. The players are self-absorbed, self-entitled and inarticulate. And I don’t mean in a Yogi Berra good sort of inarticulate.
And here’s a thought about those rising K numbers, how about batters choke up, shorten their swings and hit to the opposite side of the field?
Because hitters nowadays are too focused on the long ball to care about moving a runner over and playing small ball, or just hitting em where they ain’t. The game has changed sadly
Its not just spinrates that are the problem for hitters though, its speed. So many pitchers hit triple digit MPH. So batters swing for the fences. Even if BA is down, runs per game arent as badly hit
@@scoots2713 Just because it has changed, doesn’t mean we have to accept it. I’ve stopped watching.
@@bmac4 “So batters swing for the fences….” And miss most of the time. Boooring. It’s like watching entire lineups of Dave Kingman, Boog Powell.
you know what isnt regulated at all? doctoring your fingertips. i was a catcher but once my calluses came in for the season id sand them and noticed spin rate changed. the ball snapped down at second and sailed into center a lot less often. i could just open up and fire so my mph reached the mid 80s for the only time in my life and my rpms had to be up. we werent tracking that then but my whole job was tracking spin and yeah that little guy was screamin. angle grind your fingers and if you want even more grip use an exacto knife to cut parallel grooves into the callus to increase your skins surface area.
or, you know, trust your fielders when all else fails. its a team sport after all. if i had ended up at that level id be a menace and just get my whole bullpen tossed for making me handle lube all day. catchers take enough shit without having to hide somebody elses cheating just so the pitcher and only the pitcher can get a salary bump down the road.
Another good one man!
According to Detroit Tigers radio color commentator and former Tigers backup catcher Jim Price the seems on this season’s baseballs are still flatter than in previous seasons.
Art of pitching baby... some of those hitters are still able to put the buggy whip on it though...
Great video again! It will be interesting to see what MLB does, and see how bad it is.
I used to pitch in a rec league when I was young. I never did anything to a ball, just had fun and tried to do it the right way.
I appreciate this breakdown because as this storyline has gained more and more traction, I've been confused as to what the problem seems to be. "Of course pitchers are using 'sticky stuff,'" I'd say to myself. "They've always been. This damn near as old as the game itself. Baseball and cheating go together like peanut butter and jelly." But yeah - there comes a point where the cheating is so blatant and tips the scales so far to one side that it's unacceptable. I dunno how Major League Baseball will handle this (probably poorly) but I can see now why this is an issue, even as someone who appreciates pitchers duels and small ball.
To my recollection Mike Scott never told anyone how he did it. He was the Gerrit Cole of his day. Not worth a dime if he’s not doctoring the ball. But smarter.
Actually, the problem is how utterly lacking in personality these contemporary pitchers are. Not a single one who has had anything to say about this that has any wit or humor. Cole doesn’t have the presence of mind intelligence to come up with a comeback. He’s so used to being fawned over and mollycoddled that he can’t think for himself.
Baseballs problem is not just the cheating and swinging for the fences, it’s the fact that all of its players are deadly dull.
idk i doubt they're all in it for the media aspect of it, you don't have to be especially funny or charming off field/court/you name it to play a sport
This channel is absolutely phenomenal
5:40 I’ve heard about the book don’t think I heard that he made it why he was playing
Masterful work BH!
Great video as always, you should do some more videos on independent baseball the one you did the other day was extremely fascinating.
I’d definitely love to make some more indy ball videos, there’s so many under-appreciated stories that come out of those leagues
I hope Trevor Bauer watches this. He has been raising this issue for a few years now and the league ignored him. Nice to see it's getting some attention.
Unfortunately there's a chance that he would be scapegoated by the league
The reason pitches have been getting filthier over the last few years has very little to do with foreign substances. The changes MLB has been making to the balls to counter the ridiculous home run rates involved properties which also happen to affect pitch movement as well.
For example, between the 2019 and 2020 seasons, the average seam height of the balls increased by a little under 0.001 inch. Small as that might seem, it was tested and the results showed that it alone (when fed through the extremely flawed spin rate calculation of statcast) was responsible for at least ~300 rpm of the league average spin/movement increase on four seamers (the only pitch tested which also happens to be the pitch least affected by increased drag...meaning the effect would be even greater on other pitches.) On a side note, the true spin rate actually decreased slightly as a result of the added drag. Statcast sees any movement increase as spin rate increase regardless of it's real source...
Many other changes have been made but no testing has been done concerning movement. However, the seam height was bumped up again (by an undisclosed amount) prior to this season so...more movement/apparent spin from that. Weight was reduced a bit each offseason as well. The first change being ~3 grams, the second undisclosed. The drop of 3 grams would have decreased the force necessary to generate the same amount of spin (mass × velocity of the spin) by ~4.5% to ~5.0% (thus spin rate would obviously increase as pitchers most likely aren't putting less force into their pitches than they previously were.) Core density and other changes have also been made but their effect is unknown due to the differences being undisclosed (and lack of common knowledge as to what physical effects such properties would have on pitch movement/spin rate.)
The effect of spin rate on pitch movement has been purposely overhyped by pitchers, agents, etc. who actually understand a bit of physics and realized that changes to the ball were going to increase pitch movement (and often be falsely represented as spin rate increase by statcast) in order to create an additional (poorly understood) stat that can be easily increased (though only to levels that would cause insignificant differences) via substances for use in contract negotiations. It actually takes huge increases in spin to generate a truly significant difference in pitch movement. Far more than can be generated by the limitations of human anatomy, pitching mechanics, and use of grip enhancing substances.
Sadly, very few pitchers/managers/team owners/fans/journalists etc. have any clue when it comes to the physics of baseball. Combine that with an over-reliance on flawed statistical measurement methods and you have you have yourself a good old fashioned witch hunt. Once pitchers adjust their mechanics back to not using grip substances (and assuming they avoid injury while doing so on the fly mid-season), their performance will only slightly diminish (statcast spin rate decrease being the only major difference...and pretty much meaningless.) At worst, accuracy/consistency will be affected most with velocity possibly decreasing slightly as well. Since MLB has even more changes planned for the ball over the next few years, movement/filth will likely continue to increase despite the lack of sticky stuff.
Late reply, but thank you so much for taking the time to really break this down and explain it in a way people can understand. I'm a lifelong baseball fan, but have only recently really tried to wrap my head around sabermetrics.... It seems like breaking down everything into fractions of fractions is just.... Exhausting.
I actually took a screenshot of your comment to reread and really digest. I run a bar and during MLB season ALWAYS have a game on. Thank you for sharing your wisdom- I like discussing the game with my bar guests, and you've taught me so much.
It's kinda ironic that I'm watching this video while watching Trevor Bauer pitch against the Rangers.
The utter scientific precision of substance manufacture is one factor in offense tanking. Another has to be the prevalence of the defensive shift.
They've been shifting for many years though.
2021 balls were clearly a response to the 2019 juiced balls. What amazes me is currently pitchers can run across a differently constructed ball from pitch to pitch
Love the video and the channel, my friend. Look forward to more of your work! *applause*
I don't think the Astros were told about the memo you can't hit this year.
Gerrit Cole was definitely using sticky stuck and Trevor Bauer sounded the alarm for years. But if he couldnt beat them, he joined them
Bruce Sutter’s splitter was NASTY
Dead all era baseball was superior. You had to do fundamentals of the sport, not just plop a ball over a wall.
i’m sure you were an avid fan during the dead ball era…
You could have put like 3 clips of Kevin Pillar getting hit in the face with a ball lol. Great Video
Cheating in the majors? Since when?! Say it ain't so!
This new era I like to call the rpm era.
Perry, in fact, he pitched for 19 YEARS after that! He'd already won a Cy Young by that time, and would go on to win another, becoming the first player to win it in both leagues. He was notorious. He was obvious. Later in his career, he would go through the motions on the mound as if he was applying the greasy (not sticky, as we see these days) stuff--whether or not he actually was. (He knew the fear of the spitter was just as valuable as the pitch itself.)
Sometimes, the catcher would have to wipe off the ball before returning it to Gaylord.
But if you want to indict Gaylor for throwing the spitter, you have to take out a whole bunch of guys. Don Sutton went to the Hall of Fame throwing scuffed (on his belt buckle) balls, for example. And Niekro? Please.
I love these guys, and I think they deserve their spots in the Hall. But be real.
My dad was at the game when Phil Niekro threw the sandpaper 😂
I remember when Bobby Murcer made a statement in 1972 against Gaylord Perry of the Cleveland Indians (in which I still call them the Indians). It was right before the Yankee game on WPIX channel 11.
removing substances will just make the game even more boring. pitches will have boring movement and batters will still go for more HRs and not be afraid of Ks. batters like 3TO...BA may be down, but HRs are high. MLB should legalize a modest spin increasing substance to level the playing field, not ban it entirely.
Want higher batting average? BAN OR MODIFY THE SHIFT
Walks, RBI's and HR's argue the Avgerage data.
Lol B*uer was taken off of the thumbnail that’s awesome 😎
Ray Chapman went to my highschool, weird little piece of history. He has a little plaque on the wall.
Fantastic video! I want to see how the mlb will handle this
We need an anything goes league
"Hitting this year is literally worse than in the Deadball Era"...WOW 😬😬
you put vagasil on the baseball?
Best video on the subject I’ve seen
I read that Ed Walsh liked spitballs so much he would actually lick the ball. Till the opposing team rubbed the baseballs in manure. Apparently Walsh licked the baseball and immediately vomited.
You sir have just gained a subscriber
It’s on I fixed this problem.
This video is awsome keep it up man!
Unfortunately the only thing getting worse is MLB and Rob Manfred incompetence. For the last several seasons MLB has altered the in game balls to toy with the game. What we've heard from Tyler Glasnow and Gerrit Cole is true and it's I'd be surprised if we don't see another strike at this point. I love baseball but MLB has become a joke.
This makes me wonder how many hitters have corked their bats.
Gaylord Perry did cheat here and their but it did not take away anything from him as being one of the best Pitchers to have ever played the game
Glad they are doing something because it was getting really hard to watch
I think MLB should allow the 2023 A’s to use spider tack. They need it
Looks like MLB has put everyone on notice and judging by very recent performances the pitchers are getting the message.
Seems fair to me. After two decades of body-armored roidheads teeing off the coffee-can strikezone, It's about time pitchers had their day. Let the glue-balls fly!
Pitchers were on roids too. 😂
Pitcher killed dude and threw to first saying he out though, ruthless lol
It should be ejection plus a 10 START suspension (~44 games)
9:23 ~ that sucks! How boring
Gaylord Perry was an expert at it.
Good stuff!
Strike zone the size of a postage stamp, let them use what they want.
The only problem is the concept of 'cheating' itself. By that logic Babe Ruth should forever be #1 because there wasn't a cottage industry in muscle growth, dietary modification, and all those advanced analytics, alongside white baseballs in batting practice, personal security off the clock, and yes, every single player making "more than the President did last year".
That last video of vole was very sus
Who wants low batting average just deaden the ball a bit but laces the same as old days and get rid of the cheating
I have no issue with creative modifications by hitters or pitchers. Cheating in baseball is as American as apple pie. We just have a real problem accepting this fact.
Lou P 😆 "what it means, George..."
That dude's a dude.
If the pitchers didn't go over board with the shit. It wouldn't have to be completely banned.
9:43 "Hitting this year is literally worse than in the Dead Ball Era."
No it fucking isn't. Repeat after me: HITTING IS NOT THE SAME THING AS BATTING AVERAGE. Just because batting average is low, doesn't mean than hitting is at the same level. Batting average is a TERRIBLE way to measure hitting. Runs scored is WAY better. And runs are still well above the Dead Ball Era this season.
Why would runs be better? Runs can be swayed by walk rate (way higher now than ever before) errors, stolen bases, or 100 other things that have nothing to do with actually swinging a bat
Treat it like steroids, if you're caught you're out for half the season. Get caught again you're out for a whole season. If you get caught three times your banned for life. They're cheating bastards and they need to to treated as such.
Lindsay Hill likes the sticky stuff
You're aloud to kick your fingers but you have to go to your pants to wipe it off. I pitched thousands of innings growing up and played professionally a few years. You have to lick your fingers the seams of the ball will straight tear your fingers up if you don't lubricate your fingers in between pitches. So here is the truth fuck what pitchers put on the ball. It's irrelevant if you can't hit in the first place. Just my opinion
Have you ever used spider tack?
Uhm.... I don't... LONG LONG silence... I dont know I dont know....
Sorry, yeah ya do! It's a yes or no question brah!
And .Cobb hit .366 off junk. Best hitter ever!
Except that he played only against white guys in a brutally segregated league.
Had to come watch this in honor of Gaylord Perry
Why dont they just wash their hands in gatorade and let that shit air dry and be well i am a messy drinker and thats that
If it gives an advantage then it's illegal.......plain and simple.
What if some kid is drafted in today's game with the name Gaylord.
Seems like a dumb rule to me ~ stealing signs is cheating, corking the bat is cheating
If you ain’t cheatin you ain’t tryin…
Why is this the only thing people are talking about. We get it people are using sticky stuff
so the all time low batting average is of no concern to you? LOL cmon man. Something needs to be done and the more people talk about it the faster something will be done about it.
@@Christopher-dd1ph Low batting average is due to people trying to hit home runs all the time period and I'm not cool with pictures getting hurt
The MLB is a grade A example of
how not to run a sports league.
Stopped watching during
the bonds fiasco.
Either play baseball or find a new line of work. It’s not built on chemistry, it’s based on athletic ability. I know that’s a naive opinion, but I cannot enjoy a rigged game.