Thank you my man, because of your port of qodot to 4.0 I have decided to get back into game creation and level editing. I miss quake and quake 2 level editing so much
Around 2003ish, we seemed to move away from BSP and similar techniques to build levels and switched to building with static meshes. Suddenly, maps were not as slick to move around about, there was all sorts of greeble to get stuck on. Maps got more visual fidelity, but became harder to glide through, and the focus became more on looks than how well you could move though the environment.
As someone who modded quake and half-life back in the day, seeing wally and trenchbroom (a modern alternative to worldcraft/valve hammer editor) is a blast from the past. These workflows are how we did it back then, when modeling and level design were totally separated with different tools and workflows.
The Pizza Tower-esque escape sequence would be very interesting to see! There's probably a lot you can play with regarding changing level geometry, opening up new areas or secrets, and new enemy placements to make the reverse trek a fun twist on the level itself.
I would love to watch a deepdive on how you have trench and godot interact. This is so cool. As an old UE1 mapper, i'm happy to see brush based level design tools again.
YO!!! I just gotta say I was watching the video and then the sick beat at 8:47 dropped and I went to find the song and hey, its OST for your game... Actually crazy sick, oh wow I will buy ur game
That intro sequence by itself looks like a lot of fun! The sliding kick type move knocking enemies away and into things/each other looks really cool, reminds me a bit of Dark Messiah where you could kick enemies into traps, spikes, ledges, and so on, lots of creative ways to beat a level, your game looks very promising!
As someone who's been doing a lot of Quake mapping as a way to train my own level design skills, it's great to see the revival of Quake mapping tools, and hopefully soon enough people will start paying more attention to the INSANELY COOL modding scene this game has since the start, along with its AMAZING maps the community has made. Very nice to see how you integrated it with QODOT too, more people should be doing this and I'm not gonna rest until they realize how powerful it is
@@50PullUpsI haven't uploaded them publicly on those websites (yet) cuz I don't feel that I have worked on something good/long enough, but I've posted some of my 1-day map challenges on the Quake Mapping Discord. Might get back to that when work is not as rough as it has been, cuz I've just been sketching random structures recently
I was born in 2005 and I freakin' love Quake 1, it has to be my all time favorite game ever created and I'm fascinated by how the game was designed and works. I've started working on my own Quake 1 maps since a month ago. I'm currently still learning most of the aspects in trenchbroom but i like it a lot so far.
Trenchbroom and godot interactions are incredible!! Been following this from the start. Keep up the good work! Definitely would love punishing spike pits that enemies might fall into too! Enemies should definitely be affected by the same traps as the player for creative kill strategies.
I had an idea that the lore reason the player was able to dash at people is that their other hand was some eldrich being like tentacle. You should also add a grapple ability which would still work with the tenticle idea.
The escape sequence stuff, you can always have a single kind of enemy that becomes hostile the moment you claim an artifact, which may be an entirely optional bonus objective. bonus points if the enemies that become hostile have some cool theming, like statues that come alive, or crawl out of lava, or through windows, or something. So that a harmless feature of the level presents a brand new challenge
I liked the secret rooms a lot of these games had. Like Tomb Raider and Return to Castle Wolfenstein or even Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast. 1/3 secrets found? What did I miss? Was is Armor or Shield? A power up I can use against a tough room? A gun you can get earlier than normal but need to ration the ammo for until it is more common?
8:47 interactivity-music synced-platformer boss battle. drop the certain walls on player that kill him, use levers to make a platform boss is at go down, with second phase at 10% hp of boss running away through a paltforming area with platforms that trigger things when you step on them, for example sliding the hidden platform from the walls to outside for you to jump in a limited time. while the lava is rising from the bottom of the area
This "transverse the level back idea" is pretty interesting, especially feel and fixed enemies. It would allow the player to strategize about which enemy to kill on the way in to have enough to dash throw and get momentum on the way out.
Understanding your enemies and where to place them in your map is key, Doom had incredibly simple enemies, but by merging hit scanners, with imps and pink demons in a way they synergized with each other is what made those older games special.
Trenchbroom/Qodot have been insane for me as well, of course I have a few years within Trenchbroom already but it's such an amazing workflow to have, iteration is SO fast.
My biggest inspiration for old school levels is the modern Hocus Pocus doom. Old design philosophy with the classic looping around design. The bridge above you, you'll go there. The floor sinking into a whole new area. Everything is used and developed with limitations in mind. And that gives it such creative solutions to the geometry. But it's also beautiful and some of my favorite level design of any game ever. Even with looping texture blocks like the original Hocus Pocus on the PC. It still looks amazing and they mask the repetition very well. Especially with amazing texture work to simulate depth, transparency, shine and detail.
I like how classic doom maps will show you a powerfull upgrade at the start of a level through a window. And drive you to dig through every corner of the map looking for the secret entrance
One thing I've done recently that I'm quite proud of, is a system where I can optionally do more complex targets, to mimic Hammer's system of inputs and outputs. My entities have multiple events/actions that you can specify in TB. For example, a single trigger that opens/closes a door when I enter/exit the trigger looks like this in TB: target door1 (name of target) target_event on_enter (event of the trigger) target_action open (action the door must perform, and that it supports) target2 door1 target2_event on_exit target2_action close Having the same `target#` prefix helps parsing and joining them during build (into a dict). You can make it so all of those are optional, and it just uses the defaults when they're not provided, so you can still do a simple target/targetname connection anyway, if that's all you need. You can also add other things like *target_delay,* for example, to delay the triggering. The implementation is a little tricky, and requires some setting up during map building, and some during runtime initialization (like storing a reference to the actual target node). TB is smart enough to still show connections if you use target1, target2, etc, so you can have multiple of these. Another thing I'm doing is using image icons and 3D models in TB. It's tricky to do, because TB is kinda really bad at it, but it can be done. It requires you to edit the .fgd manually though. Tbh, I'm not sure Qodot is equipped for this. I haven't been using it because the .NET thing gobbles up way too much memory for my potato. I'm using my own modified fork of TBLoader and editing the fgd manually. But if you can do this, imo it improves the workflow. There are two great articles about fgd editing by Valve Developer Union, where they explain all this (also TB manual). If you use image icons, you'll probably want to scale down your entities in your GameConfig.cfg so you can use bigger images. Iirc, a 32x32 image is 16x16 units in TB, and that's rather small. But if you scale down your entities, then you have to scale your 3D models to compensate. Knowing the following helps doing the math though: 1 Godot meter = 1 Blender meter = 64 TB units A few other things about images and models: - models have to be .obj, exported with .mtl file, and iirc with material groups and/or other groups (icr) - it seems they must all be inside YourGameDefinition/assets. Models can be in subfolders of that. - you must name your model's material inside Blender the same as the file name, for TB to find it - TB uses quake coordinates, so you'll have to keep that in mind when exporting the model
I really get your angle here. I think when "secrets" started becoming "easter eggs" there was a shift from a funhouse to realism in gaming. I'll keep an eye out.
Holy shit, perfect timing to find out about the level editor. Working on a sorta Quake like game myself and have been slowly struggling my way through level design.
12:40 in my game i'm planning on having something kinda like that. it's a high speed roguelike, and when you get to a boss, before you're able to defeat them, you'll have to race back to the start area as they're chasing you down, and then when you fight your way back to them, then you can face off against them. but you'll only have to do that once (successfully) per boss, not every run
i absolutely love combining medieval themes with these sort of retro-style graphics, even better if you mix in horror and a vhs filter (in that case it doesnt even need retro-style graphics, just looking like one of those extremely old movies is enough to make me think "oh man, this is special"). maybe cause ive had similar dreams, but i just love that vibe in general. i also love darker levels from really old games, like the haunted mansion from super mario 64. it just gives me that surreal feeling that no modern horror movie can replicate. similar thing with halloween in general. it feels like the holiday has just carried the nostalgia and surrealism with itself throughout its existence. thats why, even though its not celebrated in my country, its my favorite holiday.
I'd love to hear more specifics on what you believe makes good level design for a game such as Quake. I felt like the video was missing a bit of depth in regards to the "design" aspect of level design, which usually gets ignored on RUclips in favor of environment art. It definitely could've been interesting to see the application of some tangible rules and principles.
interactivity with the level can be tied to enemies as well, perhaps certain triggers turn lights on or off and that changes the behavior of special enemy types. tying in mechanics of enemies directly to the levels design makes for very interesting and unique encounters and keeps your levels from feeling too same-y.
This is so cool... As a 90s kid I grew up on level design like this and even learned how to use the old Unreal One engine for making Deus Ex maps. Learning Godot now I decided I wanna go back to doing level design like this even if I'm really good in Blender now. Trenchbroom is interesting, but I'm currently using Cyclops right now which is kinda like Trenchbroom but as a plug-in for Godot where I use Godot as a level editor directly. I hope tools like this really evolve as the industry seems to have given up on them, which I feel was a mistake as level design and modeling are pretty different in scope and ideally suited to their own program. I can make one amazing looking flower vase in Blender now, and while sure I could make nice looking maps in Blender too, if I gotta change anything it would become one massive UV/texturing headache to redo any part of it. Cyclops lets me make a map, then change it quickly if I don't like it without needing to redo all the UVs and what not, that's really why Level editing and 3d Modding should be done in their own respective programs I feel.
Returning to the start to finish a level sounds cool. Even subtly changing the level layout when you hit a trigger might be interesting, although it might just end up being frustrating.
Wally is a blast from the past. I remember using that to make textures almost 20 years ago for my own game projects at the time. I forgot it even existed, and by the looks of things, so did everyone else!
Verticality, interactivity and foreshadowing via ledges, or windows to other parts of the map are hallmarks of Quake mapping. The multiplayer maps made by American Mcgee (DM2 and DM4) are some of my favorite of all time. Good luck on the project.
Nice! This reminds me of my short period creating Quake maps back in the late 90s. I was a total noob, but had tons of fun experimenting and learning more about the process. I wish I still had those maps, but sadly I was too lazy -- yes, LAZY -- to bring them over to my next pc and they just got lost forever. So incredibly stupid... Today I can't even remember what software I used to build them. 😄
Ah, I feel that. I’ve lost so much old stuff from old computers. I’m always too lazy to move everything over when I get a new computer. Anything that’s not on GitHub is basically lost forever for me
I REALLY love the movement of the character. You have nailed wall-jumping and air-dashing perfectly in the example footage, I wish I could plug that movement into every shoot-em-up and every blood bath game. Highly recommend looking PSX type shaders or bit-crushed/jittery movement of characters and textures. Lower Resolution + Crunchy/Vertex Lighting might also give it a look closer to older games.
Great to see people appreciate the many games I grew up playing! There are many gems from that era and even more great that your updating and implementing newer high volume aspects to it. Also if you need some more textures I actually am crazy 🤣 into making them but have yet to get to uploading videos cause I wasn't sure if people would enjoy watching them or not. 🤷
OMG... I didn't know there was such a thing as qodot! At the same time, I'm not studied Quake and Trenchbroom enough to know where this actually creates limitations to what can be created, even though I think its generally a huge benefit to be able to use that tool, since it made to quickly create maps.
Okay, I've got to admit I'm a little biased because I know Blargis personally and he's one of my favorite people, but these devlogs are sooo good! Your love of the project is infectious. You've got a crisp vision, a logical and pragmatic toolchain, and a knowledge of what makes this genre legit (more designers need to play older games!). I'm so excited to see how this shapes up! Oh, and I love the idea of having to steal an artifact and then make it out alive.
Could make a mini boss for the relic stealing when they have to come back maybe a gate room that's unlocked when you first come through but locks all the gates when coming back . Also scripted boss scene destruction could be cool like a before and after fight or phase after like the floor breaking underneath you and the boss to a new part of the map
Your devlogs are a treat! Something for interactive elements, a puzzle to gain access to a secret area. For example a mural or some statues that give a clue for how to open a secret door somewhere in the level. Could be something simple as finding a bunch of levers that need to be put into a specific orientation or shooting windows or targets in a specific order, or a statue room where some statues need to be destroyed and 1 needs to remain intact so it can then come to life and open a door or pull a cool sword out of stone for you. Just some random ideas
Yeah, I was sold on reactive level design by Sunlust. I think I might take a look at Qodot and TrenchBroom, I'm working on my own movement-focused FPS, although TrenchBroom might not have the kind of support for complex curves I need for my game's heelie-based gameplay.
@SummonLemming already said what I was thinking but I wanted to add on to it by pointing out that if you design your levels to be played in both directions you can really change the way the player looks at the game. Like let's say you give players a few stock-standard levels to play around with and get them used to the idea that they have to run back through them, then have a level that's just a huge pit. Getting down to the bottom will be easy, but when it's time to return to the top the player needs to fight against both gravity and new enemies. Knowing beforehand that they'll have to climb up out of the pit after they drop down into it might make them pay more attention to level geometry, working backwards from the top to find out what route they'll need to take back up when they get to the bottom. Just food for thought! Looking forward to playing
I love your game and I love everyone who is tryign to bring retro back. My particular nostagia was for RPGs where it actually felt like anything was possible within that admittedly low poly and low detail world and it's not possible for an indy team let alone a solo dev to make that, But all nostalgia is good nostalgia. Hence my rampage across youtube following everyone who's making games. I do want to point out a thought. Why does no one ever think about the middle ground between the modern extreme and the retro extreme? On one end we have modern games trying so hard to recreate a specific ultra realistic experience that they sometimes forget that they're a game and soposed to be fun. On the other hand we have retro games that were a game first but then never told you what to do or why you were doing it and kept their worlds very empty. What is the middle ground?... A world that feels alive despite being rendered in a retro style and being designed thinking of gameplay first. Much of what seems to be there just for aesthetics at first could actually be part of the gameplay. Much of what was added only for gameplay to work could be designed to make sense within the world as well. I'd love to see that maybe just a little bit more that I'd love for my retro rpgs to return.
Interesting that you found Wally this late, is a well known tool on the Half-Life 1 dev community, is basically a must if you want to create maps or mods with custom textures. I think it is used as well on the Quake 1 community.
I remember somewhere, maybe a blog post, or maybe it was Yahtzee. Saying that old school shooter level design (which in my mind work much more like dungeon crawlers interactition and flow wise), worked more like a dialogue between dev and player, while today, a generic shooter talks at you, telling you what to do.
This is cool! Can you make the trick spiral staircase from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade? Or howabout the fireplace? Also, on the exit level trigger; needing to flee after stealing an object is a good idea (again like Indy in the opening of Raiders) You could have a self destruct button where a new pathway to the exit opens up as the level shakes itself apart, or a lava level rises.
Hey man, I just found your channel while I was searching for reference on dungeon crawlers. I'm really liking these devlogs, you're doing a great job showcasing the whole appeal of your game's system. If you don't mind a small critique though, sliding into an enemy and knocking them down feels a bit like a waste in a game about killing and ditching cause it doesn't really support any of those things. I would suggest knocking them away in the direction of your slide so you could jump cancel and slash them or, if you want to go even further, use the enemy as a platform to reach a higher place. This would add a lot of verticality in the map and would encourage the player to make their own path rather than sticking with the obvious route.
The escape feature seems like it could be dope. That would give the levels a major objective to find object of interest and get out. It would become less about the combat and you might find players just moving past enemies to get to the object. It would need some balance for sure. If you do a back and forth style map, make sure the level is just as fun to play in reverse or set up a loop back to start. It could be cool to see windows and walkways that you can quite get to only to find yourself running through it in the second half of an escape. Digging the progress!
Thanks for the insight man! Agreed this is something I need to balance. >> It could be cool to see windows and walkways that you can quite get to only to find yourself running through it in the second half of an escape. Love that idea!
Love the idea of the pizza tower style ending. You should check out the quake 2 remaster. If youve not played it yet. Purely to see how its addition of the optional compass improves the game flow while still allowing for quake 2s extremely backtracky confusing maps. because thats always an option to add if you want more maze like levels without having to worry about players getting lost and quitting
"kill a (mini)boss, steal his soul (an item that he drops), then the [big bad evil] opens up a portal behind him to get revenge flooding enemies in to chase you and you have to escape back to the start or another special exit."
Yes! Having to escape with the goods under full pursuit, maybe open up the level a bit more on the backtrack, sounds awesome. I mean you could always mix it up too. This one looks fun man, hope you get some support to make it your vision!
This video was great and made me eager for the next About stuff to add to the maps using interactive triggers, I think something cool you can set up as a way to challange the player and also hint that the enemy is trying to organize in order to catch the thief are ambushes in later levels/missions. Think about knights dropping form the ceiling when a key item is taken, blocking the obvious path with falling rubble in order to punish slow players with a forced fight, or maybe dropping the player into a pit with knights waiting at the bottom which would give the player the choice of either fighting the knights or trying to climb out of there. Anyway, form what you have shown us i think you are pretty capable of comming up with great stuff to surprise the payer and try to catch the thief off guard. Keep it up my dude!
Wario\Pizza Tower ending to the level sounds like a great idea, it will help further differentiate your game from the myriad boomer-shooters on the market. And it would be terrifying and fun, which is the most important thing.
8:56 movable objects like boxes and crates and bridges and shit that you can move around and manipulate to get to certain areas, for game progress or secrets ! =)
hey not sure if you will see this but adding more things like genre and style tags will help your game out more on Steam as well! this looks awesome im really excited to play it someday
What a throwback of a video. I used to make Quake2 maps and I had totally forgotten Wally but I remember using it. Wild to see you making maps in Trenchbroom for a new game, and on Godot! Good luck on the game! In my opinion Quake2 maps were a little better than Quake1 because they had really thought of a story element, but they were still full of secrets and crazy traps and reactive murderboxes.
I learned to use Substance Designer in college, but there is a free alternative made with Godot called Material Maker. Functionally it's similar but can directly export to Godot, Blender, Unity, or Unreal. I switched to it and it's just perfect.
really like the artifact-stealing idea, while you already want the maps to be non-linear, having the bi-directionality of getting to the artifact and back will likely make the maps more interesting and unique, and its fun for the speedrunning community too! (maybe moreso than regular one-way levels)
I really like the idea of stealing an artifact and then doing the level backwards to escape it. I can see that you have some nice movement mechanics and I think it would be cool if the level until-artifact-theft was more combat focused and then the escape more movement/platforming focused
I was actually thinking recently about what Id Software could focus on if they were to make another Quake, since modern Doom's combat borrows more from it than Doom itself. I came to similar conclusions. The insane trap-filled "nightmare funhouses" we're speedrunning through.
![Eminem - Fuel (feat. JID) [Official Lyric Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/t5H_CewqpKA/mqdefault.jpg)
Oh wow I did the Godot 4.0 port of Qodot! Always awesome to see it being use din the wild
Omg, I owe you my life. Qodot is the best, and it works amazingly in 4.0. THANK YOU for your work!!
Thank you my man, because of your port of qodot to 4.0 I have decided to get back into game creation and level editing. I miss quake and quake 2 level editing so much
you deserve all the praise @embyrdev :)
Thank you SO much it literally is the only thing keeping me sane as everyone else except valve gives up on level design focused tools ❤
dude i beg you PLEASE link the wally download page
@@Blargis3d
Im so glad theres finally a devlog with a game that has a true vision and passion for what they are taking inspiration from
That's so kind of you to say, thank you!!
I wish there were livestream style game devs
@@trumtrum51363 REPLIES
@@Blargis3d what's the website you found Wally on?,
@@trumtrum5136I mean, Thor does that (piratesoftware CEO)
Around 2003ish, we seemed to move away from BSP and similar techniques to build levels and switched to building with static meshes. Suddenly, maps were not as slick to move around about, there was all sorts of greeble to get stuck on. Maps got more visual fidelity, but became harder to glide through, and the focus became more on looks than how well you could move though the environment.
Interesting, I love hearing the insider history stuff like this
That's the process I used on my maps - my projects didn't depend on precise player movement.
As someone who modded quake and half-life back in the day, seeing wally and trenchbroom (a modern alternative to worldcraft/valve hammer editor) is a blast from the past. These workflows are how we did it back then, when modeling and level design were totally separated with different tools and workflows.
Since the game is called blood thief, you should totally do the artifact stealing thing
If there is a story that would be fun to work with.
Or could totally stick with "Roid -Rage-Knight" idea.
Who knows, maybe they just took his favorite *insert random medieval items here*.
Even a mix of level types would be a great idea.
Or the player could just be a sword using vampire.
When I watch devlogs it's rare that I see a game I actually want to play, but blood thief is an exception
That means a lot, thank you!
The Pizza Tower-esque escape sequence would be very interesting to see! There's probably a lot you can play with regarding changing level geometry, opening up new areas or secrets, and new enemy placements to make the reverse trek a fun twist on the level itself.
Yes!! Totally agree, love the ideas.
@@Blargis3d2 REPLIES
I would love to watch a deepdive on how you have trench and godot interact. This is so cool. As an old UE1 mapper, i'm happy to see brush based level design tools again.
I love how you show your workflows! Please don’t ever lose that aspect of your devlogs.
im 1 min in and already stunned by your presentation level up over the last couple videos. excited to try your game
I appreciate the kind words, thank you!
Duuude you gotta learn to bunnyhop in quake, it'll make it so much more fun even starting out
YO!!! I just gotta say I was watching the video and then the sick beat at 8:47 dropped and I went to find the song and hey, its OST for your game... Actually crazy sick, oh wow I will buy ur game
Bless you for this. I've been fighting with grid maps for days now and trench broom looks like exactly like what I need!
The go back-mecanics is so cool. Maybe not in every level, but really cool. Specialy in a kinda-maze map with multiple path.
8:55 Man i would love to see you adding lots of secrets like in classic doom games it would be awesome :)
There’s gonna be lots of secrets in every level
That intro sequence by itself looks like a lot of fun! The sliding kick type move knocking enemies away and into things/each other looks really cool, reminds me a bit of Dark Messiah where you could kick enemies into traps, spikes, ledges, and so on, lots of creative ways to beat a level, your game looks very promising!
As someone who's been doing a lot of Quake mapping as a way to train my own level design skills, it's great to see the revival of Quake mapping tools, and hopefully soon enough people will start paying more attention to the INSANELY COOL modding scene this game has since the start, along with its AMAZING maps the community has made.
Very nice to see how you integrated it with QODOT too, more people should be doing this and I'm not gonna rest until they realize how powerful it is
What have you uploaded to Quaddicted & Slipgate Sightseer?
@@50PullUpsI haven't uploaded them publicly on those websites (yet) cuz I don't feel that I have worked on something good/long enough, but I've posted some of my 1-day map challenges on the Quake Mapping Discord. Might get back to that when work is not as rough as it has been, cuz I've just been sketching random structures recently
I was born in 2005 and I freakin' love Quake 1, it has to be my all time favorite game ever created and I'm fascinated by how the game was designed and works. I've started working on my own Quake 1 maps since a month ago. I'm currently still learning most of the aspects in trenchbroom but i like it a lot so far.
love the movement in the intro, i'm very excited to see where this goes. the artifact heist idea sounds epic and i'd love to see that implemented
Trenchbroom and godot interactions are incredible!! Been following this from the start. Keep up the good work! Definitely would love punishing spike pits that enemies might fall into too! Enemies should definitely be affected by the same traps as the player for creative kill strategies.
This is a great idea, I definitely plan on adding stuff like this!
This is amazing. Subbed instantly. And you might have just convinced me to finally make a devlog for my game
thank you! You totally should. One side benefit I've found to starting this devlog is that it keeps me motivated to stay on track :)
I had an idea that the lore reason the player was able to dash at people is that their other hand was some eldrich being like tentacle.
You should also add a grapple ability which would still work with the tenticle idea.
The escape sequence stuff, you can always have a single kind of enemy that becomes hostile the moment you claim an artifact, which may be an entirely optional bonus objective. bonus points if the enemies that become hostile have some cool theming, like statues that come alive, or crawl out of lava, or through windows, or something. So that a harmless feature of the level presents a brand new challenge
I liked the secret rooms a lot of these games had. Like Tomb Raider and Return to Castle Wolfenstein or even Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast.
1/3 secrets found?
What did I miss?
Was is Armor or Shield? A power up I can use against a tough room?
A gun you can get earlier than normal but need to ration the ammo for until it is more common?
Been following this since the first video you did on it, this looks extremely fun and I'm definitely going to be picking it up when it drops.
8:47 interactivity-music synced-platformer boss battle. drop the certain walls on player that kill him, use levers to make a platform boss is at go down, with second phase at 10% hp of boss running away through a paltforming area with platforms that trigger things when you step on them, for example sliding the hidden platform from the walls to outside for you to jump in a limited time. while the lava is rising from the bottom of the area
This "transverse the level back idea" is pretty interesting, especially feel and fixed enemies. It would allow the player to strategize about which enemy to kill on the way in to have enough to dash throw and get momentum on the way out.
Understanding your enemies and where to place them in your map is key, Doom had incredibly simple enemies, but by merging hit scanners, with imps and pink demons in a way they synergized with each other is what made those older games special.
Trenchbroom/Qodot have been insane for me as well, of course I have a few years within Trenchbroom already but it's such an amazing workflow to have, iteration is SO fast.
My biggest inspiration for old school levels is the modern Hocus Pocus doom.
Old design philosophy with the classic looping around design.
The bridge above you, you'll go there.
The floor sinking into a whole new area.
Everything is used and developed with limitations in mind.
And that gives it such creative solutions to the geometry.
But it's also beautiful and some of my favorite level design of any game ever.
Even with looping texture blocks like the original Hocus Pocus on the PC. It still looks amazing and they mask the repetition very well.
Especially with amazing texture work to simulate depth, transparency, shine and detail.
I like how classic doom maps will show you a powerfull upgrade at the start of a level through a window. And drive you to dig through every corner of the map looking for the secret entrance
One thing I've done recently that I'm quite proud of, is a system where I can optionally do more complex targets, to mimic Hammer's system of inputs and outputs. My entities have multiple events/actions that you can specify in TB. For example, a single trigger that opens/closes a door when I enter/exit the trigger looks like this in TB:
target door1 (name of target)
target_event on_enter (event of the trigger)
target_action open (action the door must perform, and that it supports)
target2 door1
target2_event on_exit
target2_action close
Having the same `target#` prefix helps parsing and joining them during build (into a dict). You can make it so all of those are optional, and it just uses the defaults when they're not provided, so you can still do a simple target/targetname connection anyway, if that's all you need. You can also add other things like *target_delay,* for example, to delay the triggering. The implementation is a little tricky, and requires some setting up during map building, and some during runtime initialization (like storing a reference to the actual target node).
TB is smart enough to still show connections if you use target1, target2, etc, so you can have multiple of these.
Another thing I'm doing is using image icons and 3D models in TB. It's tricky to do, because TB is kinda really bad at it, but it can be done. It requires you to edit the .fgd manually though. Tbh, I'm not sure Qodot is equipped for this. I haven't been using it because the .NET thing gobbles up way too much memory for my potato. I'm using my own modified fork of TBLoader and editing the fgd manually. But if you can do this, imo it improves the workflow.
There are two great articles about fgd editing by Valve Developer Union, where they explain all this (also TB manual). If you use image icons, you'll probably want to scale down your entities in your GameConfig.cfg so you can use bigger images. Iirc, a 32x32 image is 16x16 units in TB, and that's rather small. But if you scale down your entities, then you have to scale your 3D models to compensate. Knowing the following helps doing the math though:
1 Godot meter = 1 Blender meter = 64 TB units
A few other things about images and models:
- models have to be .obj, exported with .mtl file, and iirc with material groups and/or other groups (icr)
- it seems they must all be inside YourGameDefinition/assets. Models can be in subfolders of that.
- you must name your model's material inside Blender the same as the file name, for TB to find it
- TB uses quake coordinates, so you'll have to keep that in mind when exporting the model
I really get your angle here. I think when "secrets" started becoming "easter eggs" there was a shift from a funhouse to realism in gaming. I'll keep an eye out.
Holy shit, perfect timing to find out about the level editor. Working on a sorta Quake like game myself and have been slowly struggling my way through level design.
12:40 in my game i'm planning on having something kinda like that. it's a high speed roguelike, and when you get to a boss, before you're able to defeat them, you'll have to race back to the start area as they're chasing you down, and then when you fight your way back to them, then you can face off against them. but you'll only have to do that once (successfully) per boss, not every run
i saw knights, medieval combat, and fast paced movement. i love all those things you bet ur ass im adding ur game to my wishlist
i absolutely love combining medieval themes with these sort of retro-style graphics, even better if you mix in horror and a vhs filter (in that case it doesnt even need retro-style graphics, just looking like one of those extremely old movies is enough to make me think "oh man, this is special"). maybe cause ive had similar dreams, but i just love that vibe in general.
i also love darker levels from really old games, like the haunted mansion from super mario 64. it just gives me that surreal feeling that no modern horror movie can replicate. similar thing with halloween in general. it feels like the holiday has just carried the nostalgia and surrealism with itself throughout its existence. thats why, even though its not celebrated in my country, its my favorite holiday.
As a huge Doom/Quake fan growing up I am really into these devlogs and am really excited to try this game when it releases. Awesome work.
dude the mini-trailer at 0:46 gave me a goosebump omg
Glad you liked it!!
I'd love to hear more specifics on what you believe makes good level design for a game such as Quake.
I felt like the video was missing a bit of depth in regards to the "design" aspect of level design, which usually gets ignored on RUclips in favor of environment art. It definitely could've been interesting to see the application of some tangible rules and principles.
As soon as you used the description "Unapologetically Arcadey" I knew you had this.
interactivity with the level can be tied to enemies as well, perhaps certain triggers turn lights on or off and that changes the behavior of special enemy types. tying in mechanics of enemies directly to the levels design makes for very interesting and unique encounters and keeps your levels from feeling too same-y.
100% plan on having stuff like this
What I'd like to see with Qodot is a compiler that optimizes the level geometry and exports the map as a Godot scene file.
8:54 Indiana Jones style traps. And not just secret areas, but timed secret doors on the other side of the map.
This is so cool... As a 90s kid I grew up on level design like this and even learned how to use the old Unreal One engine for making Deus Ex maps. Learning Godot now I decided I wanna go back to doing level design like this even if I'm really good in Blender now. Trenchbroom is interesting, but I'm currently using Cyclops right now which is kinda like Trenchbroom but as a plug-in for Godot where I use Godot as a level editor directly. I hope tools like this really evolve as the industry seems to have given up on them, which I feel was a mistake as level design and modeling are pretty different in scope and ideally suited to their own program. I can make one amazing looking flower vase in Blender now, and while sure I could make nice looking maps in Blender too, if I gotta change anything it would become one massive UV/texturing headache to redo any part of it. Cyclops lets me make a map, then change it quickly if I don't like it without needing to redo all the UVs and what not, that's really why Level editing and 3d Modding should be done in their own respective programs I feel.
Returning to the start to finish a level sounds cool. Even subtly changing the level layout when you hit a trigger might be interesting, although it might just end up being frustrating.
Wally is a blast from the past. I remember using that to make textures almost 20 years ago for my own game projects at the time. I forgot it even existed, and by the looks of things, so did everyone else!
Wow, that Godot x Trenchbroom integration is insane. I've never been more jealous of Godot devs before
Would you be able to make some tutorials on how to set up things like the lava, the torches, etc between Godot and Trenchbroom?
Try Material Maker, it is node-base, free and made in Godot. I use to create procedural dirt, rocks, bricks, (...) textures for my 3D pixelated stuff.
I'll look into it, looks very cool!
Verticality, interactivity and foreshadowing via ledges, or windows to other parts of the map are hallmarks of Quake mapping. The multiplayer maps made by American Mcgee (DM2 and DM4) are some of my favorite of all time. Good luck on the project.
So ghostrunner but indie. Im in.
Nice! This reminds me of my short period creating Quake maps back in the late 90s. I was a total noob, but had tons of fun experimenting and learning more about the process. I wish I still had those maps, but sadly I was too lazy -- yes, LAZY -- to bring them over to my next pc and they just got lost forever. So incredibly stupid... Today I can't even remember what software I used to build them. 😄
Ah, I feel that. I’ve lost so much old stuff from old computers. I’m always too lazy to move everything over when I get a new computer. Anything that’s not on GitHub is basically lost forever for me
Oh yes, TrenchBroom was the best!
You should make a buckler power up that makes it so when you right click you can parry melee attacks by knights and upon blocking you stun them
I REALLY love the movement of the character. You have nailed wall-jumping and air-dashing perfectly in the example footage, I wish I could plug that movement into every shoot-em-up and every blood bath game.
Highly recommend looking PSX type shaders or bit-crushed/jittery movement of characters and textures. Lower Resolution + Crunchy/Vertex Lighting might also give it a look closer to older games.
Great to see people appreciate the many games I grew up playing! There are many gems from that era and even more great that your updating and implementing newer high volume aspects to it.
Also if you need some more textures I actually am crazy 🤣 into making them but have yet to get to uploading videos cause I wasn't sure if people would enjoy watching them or not. 🤷
OMG... I didn't know there was such a thing as qodot! At the same time, I'm not studied Quake and Trenchbroom enough to know where this actually creates limitations to what can be created, even though I think its generally a huge benefit to be able to use that tool, since it made to quickly create maps.
Okay, I've got to admit I'm a little biased because I know Blargis personally and he's one of my favorite people, but these devlogs are sooo good! Your love of the project is infectious. You've got a crisp vision, a logical and pragmatic toolchain, and a knowledge of what makes this genre legit (more designers need to play older games!). I'm so excited to see how this shapes up! Oh, and I love the idea of having to steal an artifact and then make it out alive.
Hey I learned from the best ❤️
Could make a mini boss for the relic stealing when they have to come back maybe a gate room that's unlocked when you first come through but locks all the gates when coming back . Also scripted boss scene destruction could be cool like a before and after fight or phase after like the floor breaking underneath you and the boss to a new part of the map
Really cool to see. I still remember where in the world is Carmen sandago back on windows 95 great times.
Your devlogs are a treat! Something for interactive elements, a puzzle to gain access to a secret area. For example a mural or some statues that give a clue for how to open a secret door somewhere in the level. Could be something simple as finding a bunch of levers that need to be put into a specific orientation or shooting windows or targets in a specific order, or a statue room where some statues need to be destroyed and 1 needs to remain intact so it can then come to life and open a door or pull a cool sword out of stone for you. Just some random ideas
Freaking love these ideas. Will absolutely have stuff like this
Yeah, I was sold on reactive level design by Sunlust. I think I might take a look at Qodot and TrenchBroom, I'm working on my own movement-focused FPS, although TrenchBroom might not have the kind of support for complex curves I need for my game's heelie-based gameplay.
I remember using wally for a mod i was developing like 13 years ago for Half life 1. So much fun memories.
This game looks like it would be ridiculously fun in VR! Hopefully someone will make a VR mod for it just like they did for Doom and the Quake games.
Powerups would be cool. Things like the dual wield power up in Ultrakill that give you an immediate sense of power would be fun to see.
Wow this looks so cool, not only reminds this of Quake but also Hexen. This looks so good, looking forward to it and wishlisted of course
@SummonLemming already said what I was thinking but I wanted to add on to it by pointing out that if you design your levels to be played in both directions you can really change the way the player looks at the game. Like let's say you give players a few stock-standard levels to play around with and get them used to the idea that they have to run back through them, then have a level that's just a huge pit. Getting down to the bottom will be easy, but when it's time to return to the top the player needs to fight against both gravity and new enemies. Knowing beforehand that they'll have to climb up out of the pit after they drop down into it might make them pay more attention to level geometry, working backwards from the top to find out what route they'll need to take back up when they get to the bottom.
Just food for thought! Looking forward to playing
I love your game and I love everyone who is tryign to bring retro back. My particular nostagia was for RPGs where it actually felt like anything was possible within that admittedly low poly and low detail world and it's not possible for an indy team let alone a solo dev to make that, But all nostalgia is good nostalgia. Hence my rampage across youtube following everyone who's making games. I do want to point out a thought. Why does no one ever think about the middle ground between the modern extreme and the retro extreme? On one end we have modern games trying so hard to recreate a specific ultra realistic experience that they sometimes forget that they're a game and soposed to be fun. On the other hand we have retro games that were a game first but then never told you what to do or why you were doing it and kept their worlds very empty. What is the middle ground?... A world that feels alive despite being rendered in a retro style and being designed thinking of gameplay first. Much of what seems to be there just for aesthetics at first could actually be part of the gameplay. Much of what was added only for gameplay to work could be designed to make sense within the world as well. I'd love to see that maybe just a little bit more that I'd love for my retro rpgs to return.
Interesting that you found Wally this late, is a well known tool on the Half-Life 1 dev community, is basically a must if you want to create maps or mods with custom textures. I think it is used as well on the Quake 1 community.
I really like the new look of the game, especially the lightning and the feeling that the map gives you.
Thank you!!
Trenchbroom is something i've had a lot of fun with, i need to get into it again.
I remember somewhere, maybe a blog post, or maybe it was Yahtzee. Saying that old school shooter level design (which in my mind work much more like dungeon crawlers interactition and flow wise), worked more like a dialogue between dev and player, while today, a generic shooter talks at you, telling you what to do.
Whoah, love this and I totally agree.
This is cool!
Can you make the trick spiral staircase from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade?
Or howabout the fireplace?
Also, on the exit level trigger; needing to flee after stealing an object is a good idea (again like Indy in the opening of Raiders)
You could have a self destruct button where a new pathway to the exit opens up as the level shakes itself apart, or a lava level rises.
Hey man, I just found your channel while I was searching for reference on dungeon crawlers. I'm really liking these devlogs, you're doing a great job showcasing the whole appeal of your game's system.
If you don't mind a small critique though, sliding into an enemy and knocking them down feels a bit like a waste in a game about killing and ditching cause it doesn't really support any of those things. I would suggest knocking them away in the direction of your slide so you could jump cancel and slash them or, if you want to go even further, use the enemy as a platform to reach a higher place. This would add a lot of verticality in the map and would encourage the player to make their own path rather than sticking with the obvious route.
Wally, a long lost forgotten tool mainly used to create and open wad files. pretty useful
Very useful indeed! I forgot to mention using Wally for wads in the video!
spelunky style chunking with an infinite mode would be a great v1.5 addition
I LOVE secrets and easter eggs in these types of video games! Please add some!
Edit: i just watched the newest video and i am NOT disappointed
The escape feature seems like it could be dope. That would give the levels a major objective to find object of interest and get out. It would become less about the combat and you might find players just moving past enemies to get to the object. It would need some balance for sure. If you do a back and forth style map, make sure the level is just as fun to play in reverse or set up a loop back to start. It could be cool to see windows and walkways that you can quite get to only to find yourself running through it in the second half of an escape. Digging the progress!
Thanks for the insight man! Agreed this is something I need to balance.
>> It could be cool to see windows and walkways that you can quite get to only to find yourself running through it in the second half of an escape.
Love that idea!
Love the idea of the pizza tower style ending.
You should check out the quake 2 remaster. If youve not played it yet.
Purely to see how its addition of the optional compass improves the game flow while still allowing for quake 2s extremely backtracky confusing maps.
because thats always an option to add if you want more maze like levels without having to worry about players getting lost and quitting
"kill a (mini)boss, steal his soul (an item that he drops), then the [big bad evil] opens up a portal behind him to get revenge flooding enemies in to chase you and you have to escape back to the start or another special exit."
you clearly are a talented dev, but I also think you're a really talented youtuber!
Thank you!
Yes! Having to escape with the goods under full pursuit, maybe open up the level a bit more on the backtrack, sounds awesome.
I mean you could always mix it up too. This one looks fun man, hope you get some support to make it your vision!
This video was great and made me eager for the next
About stuff to add to the maps using interactive triggers, I think something cool you can set up as a way to challange the player and also hint that the enemy is trying to organize in order to catch the thief are ambushes in later levels/missions. Think about knights dropping form the ceiling when a key item is taken, blocking the obvious path with falling rubble in order to punish slow players with a forced fight, or maybe dropping the player into a pit with knights waiting at the bottom which would give the player the choice of either fighting the knights or trying to climb out of there.
Anyway, form what you have shown us i think you are pretty capable of comming up with great stuff to surprise the payer and try to catch the thief off guard.
Keep it up my dude!
Love these ideas! There will definitely be stuff like this in the game
Wario\Pizza Tower ending to the level sounds like a great idea, it will help further differentiate your game from the myriad boomer-shooters on the market. And it would be terrifying and fun, which is the most important thing.
I like the artifact thing alot, maybe not for every level. Put it as like the 4th or 5th one as something to spice it up
8:56 movable objects like boxes and crates and bridges and shit that you can move around and manipulate to get to certain areas, for game progress or secrets !
=)
hey not sure if you will see this but adding more things like genre and style tags will help your game out more on Steam as well! this looks awesome im really excited to play it someday
I appreciate the tip, I'll look into this!
What a throwback of a video. I used to make Quake2 maps and I had totally forgotten Wally but I remember using it.
Wild to see you making maps in Trenchbroom for a new game, and on Godot! Good luck on the game!
In my opinion Quake2 maps were a little better than Quake1 because they had really thought of a story element, but they were still full of secrets and crazy traps and reactive murderboxes.
Hidden rooms like the secrets in Doom would be cool. I like hidden lore behind non obvious places.
For sure will be hidden rooms :)
I learned to use Substance Designer in college, but there is a free alternative made with Godot called Material Maker. Functionally it's similar but can directly export to Godot, Blender, Unity, or Unreal. I switched to it and it's just perfect.
I’m gonna give it a try!
really like the artifact-stealing idea, while you already want the maps to be non-linear, having the bi-directionality of getting to the artifact and back will likely make the maps more interesting and unique, and its fun for the speedrunning community too! (maybe moreso than regular one-way levels)
QUAKE is such a good game. I can jump in any time, and just start playing through the levels and loving every moment. :D
You just opened my mind with Trenchbroom + Godot + Wally. You have no idea the floodgates you've just opened for me lol.
Nice!! Love to hear it
I really like the idea of stealing an artifact and then doing the level backwards to escape it. I can see that you have some nice movement mechanics and I think it would be cool if the level until-artifact-theft was more combat focused and then the escape more movement/platforming focused
Super cool of you to use trench broom!
Loving the airy level design, should pair well with the fluid movement
I was actually thinking recently about what Id Software could focus on if they were to make another Quake, since modern Doom's combat borrows more from it than Doom itself. I came to similar conclusions. The insane trap-filled "nightmare funhouses" we're speedrunning through.
Subbed and wishlisted. Best wishes to you mate, as a long-time old-school fan, I am happy to see more of these types of games come along!
Thank you!!
Trenchboom is also used to make maps for NZP, before it was hammer but there is no point going back to it