just to clear the air since this seems to be sort of a big deal: i didn't read any of six's DMs during the debate and didn't know he was DMing me until we were done. i wasn't paying any attention to discord and muted my notifications to focus on the debate. none of my friends got responses from me, i even spaced on replying to things my fiancée sent me because i was focused on talking, combing through my own notes, and grabbing scans when necessary. for anyone who doubts me just read the messages six sent and listen to the debate. i didn't use any of his talking points. i guess some people may see this as a sign of bias on his part or something but based on what he told me near the end that "agreeing to a part 2 was in my best interest" i think it is safe to assume he wouldn't have voted for me if he thought i had lost. even if you assume the worst, and you really think six would have said i would have won no matter what (which again, i'm certain he wouldn't have), all of the other judges on panel agreed i won on the speed section. it's easy for noodles to claim collusion or whatever, but i think the claim falls apart under scrutiny. hopefully the clears things up. i really don't want this to devolve into a debate about the debate, because i know i didn't do anything wrong, and i'm pretty sure noodles knows the same. i don't care whether people think i won or lost, i just think it's important that people know i didn't cheat and i just wish i had recorded the debate myself so i could prove it more conclusively lol.
Yeah to put my perspective into it as well I don’t know or necessarily believe that swag cheated or anything but regardless having a judge dm arguments mid debate is a clear sign of bias and even if you think he would have voted for me, I think it would only because he may have not wanted to argue with the other judges. I also wasn’t aware that multiple of the judges were giving you arguments prior to the debate as well and were actually helping you prepare to their fullest capability. Having someone who gives you arguments judge is the equivalent of judging your own debate basically, so yeah even considering all this I’d still be willing to finish our debate with different judges or no judges like we said we would
On top of that during the Chunin Exams Sasuke asks Kakashi what would happen if he tried to use Chidori despite being out of chakra and Kakashi tells him that not only would the jutsu not work properly but it could end up killing him. Don’t know how even thought that was a good point to bring up
He was correct in saying that, unless you release the gates using chakra cannot damage you, you simply die when u run out of chakra because it is literally your life force, the gates are there so it chakra doesn’t damage you and the only way it can is if you open the gates.
Bruh, dude unironically thinks that kid naruto doesn't have good regen feats when he fully healed in a couple seconds from a large hole being blasted through his chest and out the other side 💀
I don’t wanna imagine that phone call, “uh I can’t come in today, I need to debate someone on an anime character”. Hell imagine he requested the day off for it lmao
Dude I read this but hearing it was very different. That shit was DEADLY. He couldnt hear AHWDSAGHWASGSHSHSHSHSHSHSHSHSHHSHFSHFSHFHSFHSSHH ..... Dont do that!
I think noodles acctually won that point. Chidori makes a loud ass sound of lightning that’s like birds, but there was none of that sound when kakashi blitzed kakuzu, like it should’ve made that loud ass lightning sound and kakuzu would’ve heard it. It’s a bit of a plot hole, but swagkage appealing to population and appealing to reality here was acctually silly. Noodles definitly won that point. Swagkage is arguing that sound waves are faster than kakuzu or Naruto.... they were reacting to sound in part 1 forest of death lmao. He really thinks sound waves from the rasenshuriken are faster than Naruto and kakuzu who are lightning timers+??? It was so stupid of an argument. Y’all acctually agree with it??
It’s clear that if Kishimoto made them fight Pain would win and noodles is aware of that fact too,But by FEATS Kakazu would win.THAT IS what Noodles is arguing
@@jaredbowen3527 what is his feats compared to pain. Pain literally took over a village with nobody even knowing destroyed the strongest village in the world killed kakashi could’ve of sage mode naruto but had to take him alive
I know I'm late to this, but I think it fundamentally doesn't make sense to say Kakuzu beats Pain when you compare what it took to defeat Pain with what it took to defeat Kakuzu. Pain's clearly presented as a significantly stronger opponent by the narrative, and while Kakuzu is no pushover, he just doesn't compare to what Pain can do.
On top of the scene where pain goes to recruit kakazu and kakazu tries to fight him skips the fighting and goes straight to kakazu on his knees with pain standing (just one path of pain the entire time btw)
i mean kakuzu with hidan fought shikamaru's team with half of team 7 and lost while pain fought all of them plus a whole village and against a stronger version of naruto and only lost because he decided to bring back the rest of the village
Honestly. Even the Deva path negged a fully completed Rasenshuriken with the almighty push… If that same rasenshuriken was thrown at Kakuzu he would have died.
I didn't know too much about Swagkage and thought he came off a little too strongly when debating against Seththeprogrammer. I see now what he deals with. I'm impressed how calm Swag was able to be when his opponent is saying things like "Never do that again" in a Debate about Naruto.
This is almost the equivalent of me saying Kurenai could solo Itachi in a genjustu battle. At that point he shouldve just logged off and went to sleep.
Boruto Era Shikamaru can definitely blitz all the paths of Pain. He can hold down all the 5 kage, including Hokage Naruto, and their bodyguards. He's definitely above all the Paths in Boruto's Era.
Noodles be like: "The bridge builder could keep up with Kakashi and squad 7 as they walked to the land of waves. Therefore Bridge Builder is equal to Kakashi."
Swag: "You use chakra to move" Noodles: "Thats not true" Literally the previous argument point "Yea so Shikamaru wasnt at full speed because he was out of chakra, therefore Kakashi is slower than Shikamaru" Noodles contradicts himself a ton throughout this debate
Check out his new video on him pulling a muscle with the reach he makes saying BASE KAKAZU is better than BASE MINATO. Apparently Minato can only beat Kakazu if he's KCM2 😂😂😂
Not to mention the time limit for shadow possession is only five minutes and because Hidden is physically stronger than Shikamaru he has a harder time holding it.....add on to his fatigue.
I like how Swag actually concluded by making real points, and not purely bringing up the arguments made by Noodles. Noodles literally argued against random points in his conclusion and frankly sounded like he was misrepresenting a lot of what Swag said. I think Swag won this one - it makes narrative sense for Pain to be stronger than Kakuzu, anyway.
@@captnbluehat first of all, you really want to argue with THE Bussy Slayer 90 cranker872???? Also, not my point, noodles’ point bruh, clearly said “he said”
@@chadmassiah557 while it does seem that way he was clearly getting exhausted while fighting Pain meanwhile he was exhausted when he went against Kakuzu and managed to merk him
@@hiiamsosorryapostles7992 not really he really just kinda sat there and said why what they were saying wasn’t correct half the time he’s getting talked over and he doesn’t care
Best part of this debate is “Shikamaru would blitz any of the six paths of pain” When Pain literally just blitzed the whole village Thank you for having the dumbest arguments ever Noodles😂
Pain didn’t blitz the whole village tsunade & her slugs saved ppl before the impact of ST,Kakashi fights the 2 strongest pains & reacts to both path,random shinobi are reacting to the pains,kiba,konohamaru.
@@Kmarks_okay Pain doesn't have much speed feat but the fact that he casually reacted to Kakashi's raikiri and SM Naruto from point blank range just shows that Pain ain't that slow for Kakuzu to blitz him....Kakuzu could be slightly whatever but he definitely ain't fast enough to blitz Pain and Pain definitely can react to Kakuzu's attacks on time...the only time that Pain takes notice of someone's speed was when the kyubi took control of Naruto and entered 6 tails
@@DS-dw3pz the deva path was throwing hands with base Naruto…not 1 time on scan he was able to dodge or tag sm Naruto & he was running from the kubi 6 tails but the less pains the faster he is so that was his fastest feat when he fights he will have all 6 vs Kakazu & that will make him slower because nagato has to share chakra to each pain.
@@DS-dw3pz random shinobi was reacting to the other pains only deva path & the asura path can react but pain durability is not that good especially when all 6 pains are up so he’s getting 1 shot & he can’t use full power CT or ST unless the other pains are down.
@@Kmarks_ you are saying like Kakuzu was able to blitz Hidan when Shikamaru controlled him...if Kakuzu was that much faster then he should have just ran past Hidan and blitz Shikamaru then lol....like I said I agree that Pain didn't show that much feat against random shinobi but that's because he didn't need to...Tendo Pain was able to react to Kakashi, Choji, and Choza all at the same time...and that was when all the paths of pain were still active...even if you dw to consider that as a speed feat,he was able to react to a stronger and less fatigue Kakashi...and tendo Pain did react to SM Naruto but he just couldn't handle the physical strength used by Naruto which sent him flying...and controlling all six paths of pain has nothing to do with their physical abilities...only if they want to focus on a specific jitsu on a large scale for example like Shinra tensei then only Nagato has to focus it on one of the Pains cz like I said Tendo Pain was able to react to Kakashi despite all the other Pains still active...cz in that case Tendo Pain should have been blitzhing Naruto when the other Pains were defeated since now he's the only Pain left if really their physical attributes are also affected and focusing on one Pain makes that Pain faster
"that's irrelevant to this argument. why did you bring that up? don't do that again." You can tell no one takes him serious in every day life when he responds to something like this...
Man, what pissed me off was when Swag was like, “are you gonna let me finish” and he goes, “No, fuck you, I’m not gonna let you finish” like dude you’re a fucking child
That was hilarious! Still liked the debate. Noodle seems like a cool guy prolly just got heated in this debate cuz they’re both getting really nit picky with their defenses
Swag: Is unable to get his points across, constantly interrupted, uses Noodles own arguments against him. Noodles: “DeIdArA OnE ShOt IsObU” “aSuMa BeAtS sAgE nArUtO”
by the way, fatigue is WAY more complicated than muscle fiber tears. there's fatigue toxins, and brain repair. if Naruto's regeneration was enough to combat training for 3 days straight and then goes to fight right after completing the training, he'd never need to sleep cause at that rate he'd just be able to regen brain functionality and dispell fatigue toxins constantly
A fatigued Naruto beat Kakuzu, with a little help. A Buffed Naruto who was stronger than he was in the Kakuzu fight, could barley beat a weakened Pain.... That pretty much sums it all up.
This Noodles dude should stick to his day job at IHOP. I seriously can’t believe people regard him as a good debater. Nearly every argument he had was countered by swag and noodles go to rebuttal was just “not necessarily”. Also I know it’s a debate and things can get heated but so many times Noodle was just blatantly rude, not to mention him constantly trying to take some intellectual high ground over swag by saying things like “ You don’t understand how to create an anti feat” when he clearly doesn’t know how to formulate a valid anti feat himself. Dude just made himself look like a moron throughout this entire debate.
@@sankeerthkoshy61 pre rinnigan Obito is interesting he has some weird statements but some decent feats, like he was a rival to itachi but consider sick Itachi a big threat, and I think he even called Pain the strongest meme bet though as we know that doesn’t mean Pain would win cause like Kamui and stuff exist but it’d definitely be a tough fight.
@@PlatanOsO this isn’t true either, if i heard this phase i wouod assume that someone was just knocked out by a punch. i wouodnt assume the person got one shorted
Okay lets put it this way. Ufc is probably a better example. If someone asks you how did so and so win and you said A head kick. That doesn’t mean that other punches, kicks and take downs didn’t happen in the fight, but it was still A head kick that finished him…… don’t even argue this lol
@@senzubeanguru4878 well no. Based on the info we know they just used s head kick. It's just like how when my wife said she fucked my friends, she only fucked my friends and not the mailman and landlord.
Argument 1: Premise 1: Kakuzu is one of the deadliest people in the Akatsuki Premise 2: Deidara is on the bottom half of the Akatsuki in power Conclusion: Therefore, Kakuzu's attacks have higher AP than Deidara. To support Premise 1, he uses an end of chapter statement. These aren't a canon part of the story and are made to sell more of the story. Even if they were, there are 3 end of chapter statements that Pain is the strongest member of the Akatsuki. This premise is either incorrect or self-defeating. To Support Premise 2, he gives nothing at all. He just appeals to Swag. This premise would require him to give 5 characters with higher AP than Deidara in the Akatsuki, and this can't include Kakuzu, or else the Premise requires circular reasoning, and it can't include Pain, because he takes this argument to say that any of Kakuzu's attacks oneshot Pain, which he concludes because any of Deidara's attacks oneshot pain. The conclusion doesn't even follow from the two premises, either. Kakuzu is a professional assassin who has 5 lives, 360° vision, and ways of attacking 5+ times at once. He also can't run out of his attacks, unlike Deidara. He's also much better at sneak attacks, as shown when he sneak attacks Asuma and Shikamaru, while Deidara makes himself known in every fight he's been in. Deidara also consistently misses kills that are nearly absolute, while Kakuzu has actually gotten a kill in the series. So, Kakuzu can be deadlier due to hax, consistency, and accuracy, and not AP.
Argument 2: Premise 1: Deidara has Country level AP with a casual bomb Premise 2: Pain doesn't have Country level durability Conclusion: Therefore, Kakuzu oneshots Pain Premise 1 is blatantly wrong. He says this because Deidara beat Isobu, who could take Bijuu Bombs. However, the only Bijuu bombs that have ever been calced at Country Level are ones used by Rinnegan and Sharingan amped perfect Jinchurikis, not by Tailed Beasts who don't even have a Jinchuriki. Deidara also didn't oneshot Isobu. The entire point that he does requires a misunderstanding of everything. It showed Deidara using one bomb, then it cut away, then it came back to the same exact place with dead Isobu. That wouldn't be necessary if that one bomb killed Isobu. The databook also only says Deidara used a bomb AND captured Isobu, which doesn't apply a causal link. This also ignores the fact that Japanese doesn't even have plurals, so unless he shows the raw scans, this can be dismissed on that basis alone. Premise 2 is also fundamentally incorrect. Tendo Pain was able to survive a Bijuu Bomb from 6 Tails Naruto, which was stated to be in par with other Jinchurikis. On top of that, 6 Tails Naruto's Island Level calc underestimates the size of Konaha. If you properly size Konoha, the feat is Country Level. Also, just because a character hasn't been blatantly shown to survive attacks that bust a country (which Pain has), doesn't mean they can't have Country level durability via inverse scaling. The conclusion only follows if we grant that both arguments are true, when neither are. If both arguments were true, then the conclusion would logically follow.
love how noodles got EXTREMLY defensive when swag brought up that what they where talking about earlerier and how he could'nt prove it and it's the same thing that noodles is trying to call swag out for and tries saying that its not relevant and saying to never do it again like he was swags dad or some
Naruto trained hard for 3 days: “ that doesn’t mean he’s exhausted” that is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard, y’all really think noodles is a good debater lmao.
Someone should've told my boy noodles that Naruto can get hella exhausted just from some dang paper work🤣🤣 and training for something as brain busting as what he just did for 3 days straight...uhh yeah
@@coolranch_handsome_doritoz nah what are you talking about haven't you seen Naruto regenerate from litterly just 1 atom Naruto is fine he can't get exausted it's physically impossible... Jk obviously he can
@@soullemur7880 it wouldn't matter he would still get exausted it's not like his chakra is recovering from 3 days of relentless training over night it takes time even with op healing
Noodle: *Lectures swag about possibilities* Also Noodle: Well Obito didn't help in the fight because Deidara makes a shady comment, it's possible that Deidara did 99.9% of the work but Obito did only .1%
This dude said kakuzu reacted to Yugito once and once was all he needed to prove relativity. And yet still argues that Naruto tagging kakuzu 2 times doesn't make them relative. Hypocrisy
Swag argument was trying to mix up the word play when it literally says “a bomb and successfully captures isobu”, obviously it’s meant singularly.. 🤦♂️
remember when Tobi tries to warn Pain that Naruto one shotted Kakuzu, and konan was like "yeah thats nothing Pain never lost a battle" and Tobi was like "yh wtf am i saying" lol
Noodles: "you need to prove everything or else it's an unquantifiable argument and therefore invalid" Also noodles when pressented with a fact: "Nah let's move on"
@Jesus Pernia In the nicest possible way, then this part of the community isn't for you. This is a part of the community that finds that overthinking element kind of fun. If you don't (and you hate it) you should just steer clear, as there are plenty who don't like it as well and are off doing other things.
Jesus Pernia there’s a lot other than debating that is actually toxic dude debating is a human instinct to have it be fun debating started in the agriculture era
Noodles sure loves to use the “you don’t know” argument to downplay swag’s point but then in the same breath, use unquantifiable events as proof for his own argument, Jesus Christ
Wasn’t Naruto’s nine tails chakra completely suppressed by Yamato for 3 days. And if the nine tails chakra is what regenerates naruto. Wouldn’t that mean he’s more fatigued than he’d usually be because the chakra was suppressed. Not to mention he left the training field to go fight kakuzu without rest?
Imo saying kakuzu beats pain is the same as arguing A would beat minato if it wasn't for flying raijin or danzo would beat sasuke if it wasn't for the sharingan lol
Shikumaru is faster than Kakashi... yea this guy is off his rocker. Kakashi repeatedly dodged attacks from 4 masks and hidan as they tag teamed him. Shikumaru dodged a punch...
Clearly rock lee wins because, due to his lack of chakra which in theory shouldn’t allow him to move as fast as he does but he’s just a genius, doesn’t allow him to be affected at all by any chakra attacks nor by genjustu cause everyone knows genjustsu affects the victims chakra, which rock lee doesn’t have.
Sage mode is a boost to speed too, not just strength. It's literally shown in Jiraiya's fight with Pain when he blitzs one of the Paths with the Odama Rasengan and is able to cross the entire battlespace in the time it took his sandal to fall a few feet.
I'm pretty sure Nagato would bend over CockAzzOOO, give him the Almighty PUSH, and show him true "Pain"🤣🤣🤣💀 CockAzzOOO may have multiple hearts, but he's only got one rectum😂😂😂😭
I'm going to go on a point by point analysis of this debate over the next week. I'll be editing my comment and replying to it until I've fully analyzed this entire exchange to my liking. Once I am finished I hope to have a fair assessment of both participant's actual contributions by scoring the actual argumentation, their etiquette, their consistency within the material, and their consistency as speakers. -Argumentation has to do with if they're constructing good arguments or making faulty assertions. -Etiquette has to do with rhetorical low blows, fallacies, and other distractions that don't contribute to a fair debate. -Consistency with material pertains to if their argument (well constructed or not) makes sense within Naruto. -Consistency as speakers has to do with how much they end up back pedaling on their arguments. Acknowledging my biases, I've watched the full video once and am heavily against Noodles due to my disdain for his argumentation style. This is mainly an exercise in venting my frustrations for how he conducts himself as a debater (I believe it is especially abhorrent even though I disagree with some of the debate bro tactics that Seth and Swag use. Noodles is on another level in my mind). I will not shy away from calling him out for the stuff he does that I find ridiculous, but I will do my best to be fair to him where his behavior is something I disagree with as opposed to erroneous, and I expect you all to keep me honest on that. That said, let's get started. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ First and foremost, I do not necessarily understand the rules of the debate but I do think that the judges need to be the ones to enforce them (for example, warnings for gish galloping and also specifying when a participant is interrupting the other). The fact that one participant in particular was able to use threats of a gish gallop DQ against the other, erroneously while also interrupting that participant's points CONSTANTLY is an oversight. But I'll try not to interfere with the implied judgement metrics and as I am judging this debate myself I will refrain from bringing external details into my judgement. But I will mention certain potential arguments where I feel like--just know that these don't factor into my judgement. I'm going to go through the issues point by point. 1. Kakuzu being one of the deadliest Akatsuki and therefore more powerful than Deidara. Noodles makes this claim while Swag attempts to explain that this statement doesn't mean that one can output more force than the other. This ends up being a small concession in the beginning, but Kakuzu is one of the oldest members of the akatsuki and has been assassinating people for money for a long time. He could be the deadliest in respect to how much death he's caused. There is no reason that deadliest pertains to combat strength or Destructive Capacity. Deidara is weaker than Sasori and would lose to him in a fight, but Sasori has much lower destructive capacity and arguably attack potency. This is also true for Itachi who is obviously stronger than Deidara but would not be able to cause the same level of destruction that Deidara can. Saying that Kakuzu's ninjutsu or punches must be equal to the power of Deidara's explosives is as pointless as saying that because shikamara is a Chunin on the Sasuke retrieval mission that he must be able to output as much force as the rasengan. There are other ways for Kakuzu to be deadlier than Deidara without having the same attack potency, like in Sasori's case with poison, dexterity, and versatility. 2. Durability of the paths of pain This will be a recurring issue, but originally Swag claims that the abilities that the individual Paths of pain possess should be included in the assessment of their durability. Noodles clarifies that he's looking for base physical durability without hax included while simultaneously claiming that those abilities don't actually factor into the Pains' durability. The issue with this is that you can't disregard the information because it isn't relevant due to you having asked a different question then diminish the efficacy of that ability in the same breath. If you're arguing Kakuzu's stats, it's up to your opponent to argue Pain's. Trying to nullify the argument ahead of time by dismissal as opposed to disproving is in poor taste (especially because Noodles said himself that they would get to the hax part later--essentially "we'll get to it later, but it's irrelevant."). Lack of etiquette. 3. "A" Clay Bomb Based on the wording for this specific statement, Noodles attempts to claim that Deidara dropping an average clay bomb took out the 3-tails. He relates this to Kakuzu being deadlier than Deidara by implying that Kakuzu can output as much force as Deidara. Swag's argument is that the wording doesn't mean that only Deidara's one attack put the 3 tails down. But also Swag says that even if this were the case, that doesn't mean that Kakuzu has the same attack potency. -----> 3.1 Occam's Razor Noodles claims that they must use the simplest explanation to say that they must assume that Deidara must have used a basic level bomb to defeat the 3-Tails. Due to the fact that Sasuke had survived being blown up by a bomb that hit his wing in Curse State 2 (and he didn't even lose the battle), it is safe to assume that Deidara's standard bombs don't pack bijuu level attack potency or that what he used on the 3-tails was stronger. Using Occam's razor to imply that we must accept that Deidara's fodder attacks are 3-Tails level while also ignoring that this means that Sasuke's wing would also have 3-tails level durability and Gaara's face would as well (because he took point blank bombs to the face) is an oversight and undermines his point. It is more likely that Deidara used a special bomb for the 3-tails to differentiate it from the other two examples if we accept that he only used one bomb. 3. "A" Clay Bomb Furthermore, with the revelation that Obito helped out with the fight against the 3-tails there is much more contention. The statement "Deidara uses a clay bomb and captures the 3-tails" is not a commentary of the entirety of what happens. There are no indicators such as "only" or "just" to squarely indicate exclusivity. Therefore, even if the statement read "Deidara uses a clay bomb [to] capture the 3-tails" as Swag suggests would be the version that aides Noodles argument, there is still no time distinction meaning the statement is still not exclusive to only one explosive. "Naruto used a Rasengan and defeated Kabuto." In this example, we can go to the reference material and say that the only thing naruto did was hit kabuto with a rasengan. A singular rasengan was all he threw. "Naruto used a Rasengan and defeated the 3rd raikage." This is also an instance where naruto did use a single rasengan to defeat the raikage--but there was also a lot of things that took place before that moment. The rasengan was only the decisive blow. "Naruto used a shadow clone to fool Neji and won the battle." Naruto did Fool neji with a clone at the end of their battle, but he also used several other clones and the ninetails chakra in that fight. Also the battle was decided by a punch but it wouldn't be inaccurate to say that naruto used a Shadow clone and defeated Neji. My point is, each one of these statements^^^ uses "a" to describe a singular thing that exists non-exclusively within the fight. There can still be others not covered by this statement that are relevant nonetheless for our purposes as debaters. You have to prove an exclusive link between the "a" and the object. Finally, there is a time cut between the start of the 3-tails fight and the conclusion which is where obito asks if Deidara saw his jutsu (meaning that obito did have time to use a jutsu). This further casts doubt on the idea that Deidara swooped in and simply blew up the 3-tails in one go. Occam's Razor would suggest that the time cut between the first attack and the conclusion of the battle implies that more happened between. 4. You don't know how possibilities work Swag detracts from the positive claim "We know Deidara only used one paper bomb due to the wording" using the possibilities that Deidara used more than one. Noodles responds by saying that because his assertion is more likely than those other possibilities that using them is baseless assumption--which is flawed. When making a positive claim (x is y because z), that assertion should be a direct relationship caused by the proposition. If one can point out alternative possibilities, then one has undermined the positive claim by casting doubt. Basic argumentation. In other words, Swag isn't claiming that Noodles CAN'T be right, but he is pointing out that he could be wrong which means that Noodles is the one dealing in possibilities. He is basing his argument on the possibility that Deidara one shot the 3-tails and not the certainty. The fact that there is a cut between Deidara launching his attack and capturing the 3-tails without any indication of the cut picking up right after he launched his attack is a realistic debunk of the one-shot take. Isobu got off-screened, not one shot. Even if he was one-shot, this was off-screen and not stated so it is therefore technically invalid. Pt. 1 Fin. Hit the character limit for now, so this is a good place to end the first part. Won't take long for me to come back with the next one, so see ya soon!
Pt. 2 We're starting up at 24:08 5. Can Kakuzu's punches knock out the 3 tails Noodles states that he still believes that Kakuzu scales about Deidara's 2nd strongest bomb (most likely referring to Kakuzu being deadlier than Deidara as an explanation again--which is erroneous to begin with). In pressing him about this swag asks if Kakuzu hit Asuma and if he was fine afterwards. Noodles implies that since Asuma doesn't have any scaling outside of Kakuzu that it's not an anti feat or a way of downplaying Kakuzu. To this, I would simply say that Asuma has no scaling that places him in the level of power of the 3-tails or that level of durability. So at the very least we reasonably can conclude that base Kakuzu's punches are not 3-tail level or on the same level as Deidara's bomb that he theoretically used to one-shot the 3-tails. Furthermore looking back at part one when Asuma did fight Kisame and Itachi, itachi believed that Kisame would be able to dispatch Kurenai and Asuma without causing a scene, but not Kakashi. Whether this is because Kakashi is a more troublesome or adept fighter than Asuma and Kurenai, or because he is blatantly stronger than the two, is up in the air. It is debatable that Kakashi should scale somewhat above Asuma based on this as the only real scaling that he has in the series. This wouldn't be inconsistent since Asuma also scales above Hidan like Kakashi but admittedly this is me adding context into the argument that isn't present in the debate. I'll try to stick to the content provided. ----------> 5.1 Asuma and Pain don't share any scaling Swag asks Noodles if Asuma would survive the chidori and Noodles implies that Pain didn't either. Swag responds by pointing out that the Asura path did get hit by the chidori and didn't die. While it was incapacitated, it was still able to fire off attacks and threaten Choji's life. Noodles responds with an argument that this doesn't mean that the Asura path scales above asuma since durability and survivability are two different things--which to Noodles credit is true. The example he uses of a zombie isn't the worst comparison as a zombie can continue crawling without both legs, but you wouldn't say that the zombie has shotgun level durability just because it's still moving after its legs were blown off due to the significant decrease in capability it experiences after the attack. Now, that said, an oversight on both participants part regarding the comparison between Asuma surviving Kakuzu's punches and the Asura path surviving the raikiri are not comparable. Asuma barely taking damage from Kakuzu's punch and the Asura path taking massive damage from a Raikiri cannot be quantifiably measured/compared unless you take into account that Kakuzu's punches are supposed to be 3-tails level according to Noodles earlier point. At the very least the only two logical conclusions are that Asuma scales far above the paths of pain if Kakuzu's punches are 3-tails level (because the Raikiri clearly isn't) or that Kakuzu's attack potency scales far below the raikiri on a physical level which undermines the idea that his punches are 3-tails level. (The conversation they have about choji in an attempt to scale him above Asuma is wasted effort). 6. Holding back Swag says that Since Pain is blocking punches from Sage naruto and Asuma survived Kakuzu's punches, pain should scale above Asuma. Swag says that since Kakuzu swapped hands with KCM naruto in the war that he can essentially be scaled to KCM, but swag tries to counter this by saying Naruto was holding back as he was fighting Kakuzu with a shadow clone and trying to conserve stamina. Noodles counters by saying that unless there is a statement or implicative evidence that we can't assume that the person is holding back. Noodles then goes on to say that because Kakuzu when he enters his next form is stated to have his chakra swell accordingly that he was holding back. Swag says that this doesn't mean he was necessarily holding back but that he transformed and Noodles condescendingly says, "Swag. Did you just say that outloud?" So, breaking this section down, there's a little more chatting on the subject before Swag concedes and they move on to speed, but Noodles issue here is that he's making points that don't benefit his argument as a whole while also making poor arguments. By saying that someone not using their maximum form or abilities means they're holding back, he is admitting that the KCM naruto that fought Kakuzu was holding back because it was a clone and not the real Naruto (shadow clones are weaker and have limited chakra) meaning that we can't scale Kakuzu to KCM from that alone. Furthermore, this implies that because it wasn't stated that Kakuzu was holding back when fighting team asuma that he was going all out with each punch. Bottom line, it's a weird argument and it doesn't work to prove or disprove anything. Sometimes characters put their all into their attacks, sometimes they intentionally hold back and it's stated, and other times the way that they fight simply doesn't encourage them to go all out from the beginning. The best way to describe this particular argument is frivolous--it only muddies the conversation and is inherently arbitrary. If you want to make a case that someone is holding back, you definitely can. All you have to do is provide supporting evidence--such as, "Naruto is conserving his strength so that his clones can visit as many battlefields as possible." Solid. 7. Speed Blitz "Through Speed, not through some kind of other ability." In this section Noodles claims that Kakuzu Speed blitzes Naruto and his clones but that naruto is saved by kakashi and Yamato. Noodles defines blitz as a person being overwhelmed by the speed of another before they're able to react. The claim is that Kakazu is in a higher speed tier than Naruto and that because Kakuzu was able to defeat Naruto's clones and nearly kill him that he is above base naruto in speed. Noodles even says specifically that Kakuzu's Tentacles are faster. The weird thing about this argument is that Kakuzu's tentacles are "some kind of other ability" as opposed to a matter of his speed. They have much longer range and also there's a massive amount of them. To say that Naruto being overwhelmed or tagged by Kakuzu's tentacles is a matter of Kakuzu's combat speed in this form ignores the fact that naruto doesn't have any tools to deal with them even if he is fast enough to react to them (kakashi is shown using the raikiri to cut them, which suggests that they are durable). It's not like Naruto could pull out a kunai and deal with them--which is evidenced by the fact that before Kakashi saves him, Naruto is basically dead to rights. So calling this a speed blitz is already strange, but what this actually does do for Noodles argument in building up kakuzu is to characterize the durability of his tentacles and threads. We can say pretty definitively that Kakuzu is consistently shown at Kakashi's level of speed. Using this contentious scaling doesn't change that. 8. Dishevel Leveled Swag brings up that Naruto should be fatigued here considering his training and that Kakuzu remarks that Naruto looks disheveled. Noodles denies this and says that disheveled only means that he essentially looks untidy, comparing naruto's appearance to if he'd just gotten out of bed that morning. Swag responds that training for 3 days is not comparable to getting out of bed and this point devolves into Noodles claiming that Swag can't prove that Naruto is fatigued by the training. Narrative implications are real. They are technically more important than scaling when comparing characters and the like because if the scaling contradicts the narrative then the scaling should adjust to match the narrative (since the author's intent matches the narrative). Now this is not iron clad 100% all the time, but the reason this is important is because the question "Why does Kakuzu point out Naruto's appearance," informs the question of if Naruto is fatigued. From a narrative perspective, Kakuzu isn't some frivolous character who judges people's appearances and Naruto isn't commonly regarded as Disheveled compared to the rest of the cast. Most of the ninja on or coming to a battlefield did so by high-speed travel, so nobody reasonably is meant to look pristine and fresh pressed. So Kakuzu pointing out Naruto's appearance here is narratively significant. What we can draw from this is that Naruto came straight from training and that the training was reasonably intense because he is visibly worn, dirty, or disheveled. Especially with the content of Naruto's training involving being suppressed by Yamato (due to the nine tails) and taking damage, we can further support this narrative. But again, Noodles here is making the argument that if the story doesn't explicitly state something then we can't assume that thing even though the story heavily implies it. It's again a weird argument for him to make since the story doesn't explicitly state or even imply at all that Kakuzu is stronger than pain. Js -------->8.1 Regeneration Noodles also makes this argument that regeneration in Naruto regenerates stamina as well as damage. I understand that Noodles is saying that Naruto can't be experiencing muscular tenderness and stuff since he can heal and therefore he wouldn't be fatigued, but the idea that Naruto's energy levels can be low even while his chakra levels are high is still true (otherwise ninja would never fall asleep unless they experienced combat). He can still not be at his best because he's been exerting himself without proper rest--indicated by his appearance. I swear this section has so many issues that I can barely sort the problems out neatly (went over the word count so I had to delete a couple points). Man I'm barely 45 minutes in and I've only addressed arguments.
@@andrebullock4102 Sorry I didn't see this message and ended up giving up at the 45 minute mark because I couldn't stand one of the two participants. I'm gonna come back and finish it! Thanks for the support
@@romeospells2487 i listened to the full thing while playing games so wasn't paying much attention and noodles sounded so logical and calmed it was swag who rubbed me the wrong way. It was surprising when i read the comments and checked the captions how much bs he was able to claim, my favourite being that shikamaru could blitz the 6 paths of pain 😆 He just focus too much on logic, those things like strowman, shotgunning, galloping, fallacies etc he thinks he's so smart that forgets to actually make sense...everything he says is a huge stretch like saying training 3 days and looking dishoveled in a cartoon doesn't mean the character is tired...sure the characters just pointed it out cause they didn't like naruto wasn't looking cute lol
@@sakurasfish2115 another way of putting it is that he structures his arguments to prove his point, he doesn't follow a logical path to find the truth. That's why it's easy for him to ignore the obvious gaps in his ideas
@@KingpenGames cut to Naruto with enhanced Senjutsu (Six Paths Senjutsu) blitzing and kicking away Madara's truth seeker orb as it was gonna eradicate Guy's body
Cuts to Naruto having better Combat Speed than Tendo Pain with Sage Mode while getting tagged by the Animal Path in Base and blitzing the Asura Path in Sage Mode. Yeah, Sage Mode doesnt give you Combat Speed
Omni man beat red rush dont mean omni man is faster than red rush. Deidaras specifically good at destructive capabilities thats his whole thing exploding.
Hearing this guy argue that someone looking disheveled to the point of being noticeable wouldn't imply exhaustion after 3 days of physical and mental exertion made ME so exhausted that I now look disheveled myself.
Listen to this y'all Noodles: "Tobi could have planted landmines" Swag: That's what I'm saying, Tobi could have planted landmines Noodles: "When did Tobi ever have landmines?" Bruh I'm dead😭
My thing is that even if you give him every point he made and say Kakuzu is strong enough to one shot every path and fast enough to actually be able to hit every path, he still hasn't addressed how Kakuzu is going to be able to get past the animal summons, the chakra draining hold, the tensei hacks, the soul stealing, or the team work revival of the pains. Naruto had summons to handle the summons, nature chakra to deal with the draining hold, was told to take out the path that summons the king of hell, and still got beat once the debuff on the tensei hacks ran out. He escaped because of the ninetails transformation. Kakuzu has none of those, save maybe the summons if he wants to give up a heart to have another minion on the field.
Bro, rewatching this, it's so stupid. Noodles blamed having to work when they were gonna get into Pain's argument, and never let Swag talk about Pain unless it was reference to matching or being on par with Kakazu. I just want to see a pt 2 which probably won't happen just cause Noodles doesn't want to get shut down. Swag was staying respectful and not cutting him off every second, unlike Noodles which I still think is highly unfair cause he never got to present his argument.
like it or not, swag committed MULTIPLE fallacies that noodles didn't call out (which he usually does), and swag not scaling pain's durability is his fault for letting noodles avoid that
@@aplahet3867 Like it or not, Noodles contradicted himself multiple times and noodle's avoiding the durability points of Pain by telling Swag his turn would come later was super slimy.
@@DHAYProductions it was entirely swag's fault for letting it go by. Instead of moving on, he should have forced noodles to listen. i love swag (more than noodles) but he got HARD baited into losing
@@aplahet3867 Maybe. Noodles seems like someone who wouldn't listen no matter how much you talked, though. My man was saying some very disingenuous stuff to try and win the debate, like the stuff about Asuma and Shikamaru. I would have given up like Swag, because it's just not worth it. And as far as I'm aware, they never went back for part 2.
Noodles seemed kinda hypocritical when making arguments. Dismissing swags argument then used an identical one himself 10 minutes later. Not to mention hes just flat out wrong with fatigued naruto
Yea literally, noodles tells swag show me the direct statement , then he says something like I was their when he was drawing the panel I know what he was think while writing the story
@@tempalar2508 yeah saying naruto wasnt fatigued was so fucking stupid as he passed out while training multiple times and was low energy after killing kakuzu
Someone should've told my boy noodles that Naruto can get hella exhausted just from some dang paper work🤣🤣 and training for something as brain busting as what he just did for 3 days straight...uhh yeah
"Normal humans can train really hard for multiple days and then be fine on the next." Uh..... this makes me skeptical if Noodles has ever seriously exercised in his life. The highest tier of professional athletes take recovery days before their big game to recover from training intensely all those days before.
@Jerryco dondon ISIP Not quite. Bodybuilders and athletes that want large muscles intentionally create fiber tears so that muscles grow larger. Fighters generally want better technique, endurance, and cardio. Most endurance athletes will be thinner and leaner. Their muscles endure lactic acid fermentation to provide energy during long sessions. When they appear muscular, it is due to having a lower bodyfat percentage, opposed to large muscles To put that in practice, you can look at runners. A sprinter will get large, thick, powerful legs to generate momentum as fast as possible. A marathon runner will have skinny bird legs, which weigh less and burn less energy to endure the race. Noodles tries to apply one to the other, because that fits his narrative.
@@noahblevins9569 you forgot the "without rest" part so training 3 days wihtout rest and on the 4th day you are fine, and if you are training hard then this is impossible no matter what you trained. you can run, swim, weightlift or something else dosent matter if you tryed realy hard for 3 days without sleeping you wouldnt be fine on the 4th day. what noodles said is ridicules.
Noodles was such a slime ball. He chooses to have a debate on a day he had to work, runs the clock out by talking random shit and does not let Swag make his points, claiming victory when he has to leave.
@@sixfromtokyo yeah i mean theres a reason the multi shadow clone jutsu was forbidden. im pretty sure it was clearly established that regular people cant use it because it causes you to divide your chakra by however many clones you create. So if you create 1 you’re left with 1/2 of your chakra supply. If you make 20 you’re left with 1/20th of your original chakra supply. the regular shadow clone jutsu is a rank for a reason (since not many people are willing to get rid of half of their chakra on the spot just for the chance to defeat an enemy). im guessing it would be like losing a bunch of your blood on the spot you know? That would either definitely kill you or make you so weak that you wouldnt be able to move - let alone fight.
@@sixfromtokyo @Six your a rat dude. You help someone mid debate or at least try to but then your to stupid cover your tracks and just expose yourself lol
I haven't listened to the whole video yet but I think narratively it makes little sense for Kakuzu to be able to beat Pain. Like it was established that the Akatsuki fought and killed each other all the time, if Kakuzu thought Pain was weaker than him he would just kill him and usurp him as the leader.
You contradicted yourself there…you said it would make narrative sense to for kakazu to beat pain. But then said that kakazu can’t beat pain because if he could’ve he would have taken the leader position
I've heard the infamy of this debate. From Swag winning without having to talk about Pain, to apparent cheating and nepotism, to the probably the most famous part surrounding the whole ordeal; Noodles going SSJ3 against Seth and banning him from his server. But NEVER did I ever sit down to actually listen to it before today. I knew what to expect from Noodles, he's real aggro with his points and doesn't take anyone's evidence or interpretations seriously no matter how reasonable, but Swag is sort of wishy washy with his attitude in debates. Some debate vids he seems eager, others he seems like he's trying to get everything out at once, and others he's really docile. But this one right here? PEAK Swag argumentation. Like WHOA, this guy had hands fr. Idk about all this Six giving him arguments business, but Swag WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT fought back well and won this debate. He almost always had something to say in an attempt to counter whatever point was brought up; enough to where it was reasonable and not intrusive. He made some reasonable assertions and made some pretty GOAT'd takes (like Naruto being somewhat nerfed against Kakazu because of his hyper intense training that he barely rested during) just dropped banger refutes left and right. W Swag growth. Love to see it.
I'm not the biggest fan of Swagkage; nothing personal just not the kind of content I totally dig, but I can definitely appreciate how collected and well thought out his responses as questions are.
@@KingpenGames i like seth because he's funny; but also I'm waiting for the Dark Seth Arc to take over and then it's just nothing but manic hot takes 😂😂
Naruto displayed crazy stamina in the last day in the Forest of Death but couldn't produce anymore clones; yet still fought? Having high stamina doesn't mean you can't be fatigued.
50:30 No, Swags has more of a probability because he literally trained for 3 days straight. Lack of sleep and heavy exertion are multiple reasons a body can be fatigued, so it's safe to say even with his regeneration repairing his muscle fibers, it still doesn't make up for the fact that he isn't fully rested. So he can feel fine but his body can literally still be fatigued. So his is more likely that Kakazu was implying that he looks a bit tired over looking messy. The variables and context are there, he just doesn't want to acknowledge them.
Kakuzu’s tentacle speed is not necessarily equal to his movement speed and even if he did NOT hear the rasenshuriken (highly improbable) he would have noticed the massive amount of chakra.
I love how every time Swag made a point using very sound logic (naruto being exhausted from the stated most intense training he’d ever been through for example) it was thrown out by noodles because there is no direct statement word for word saying. Bro you have any idea how boring anime would be if they had to articulate every single thing like that? Also noodles knew exactly what he was doing by running the clock and bouncing. Swag won by a mile
Swag actually did that first when he refused to accept that Choji got stronger during the war arc compared to when he went against kakuzu. And he implied that butterfly form Choji in war arc is comparable and not amped
Noodles goes from "We go for the most likely interpretation" to "Naruto is not stated to be tired so he is not tired from training." Flip flopping like a fish out here. 🤡
Someone should've told my boy noodles that Naruto can get hella exhausted just from some dang paper work🤣🤣 and training for something as brain busting as what he just did for 3 days straight...uhh yeah
This kills me because this is how frustrating I find most of my friends in debates.Its honestly heart warming because I can see these stressful life shorting debates in our future
Swag won the debate without even delivering a point lol. Every time Swag backed Noodles into a corner, Noodles just said “let’s move on.” Swag should’ve just had them judge on the speed section and not subjected himself to another one of these.
37:46 this was actually hilarious lmao like swag made an entirely valid point and dude replied with “dont do that again”. no wonder the guy couldnt be bothered to debate towards the end
Noodles - “that’s irelevant, don’t bring that up again” Swagkage- “sure” No swagkage agreed his own argument was irelevant and conceded it. Noodles won that point, if it was “valid” swagkage wouldn’t have INSTANTLY conceded it. Do you realize what you’re saying? Lmao
@@trnrred489 yeah either that or he just didnt wanna childishly argue over noodles’ word choice. thats like if a teacher tells you that they dont wanna hear what you have to say rudely over zoom. The mature thing to do would be to just leave it and besides even if it wasnt valid (which it entirely was; the point in time which the point was made doesnt affect its validity as a point), why didnt noodles do something other than resort to belittling him and telling him not to do that again?
@@trnrred489 That doesn't necessarily mean Swag agreed lol. He was more than likely didn't wanna argue over something so stupid. He said "sure" he didn't say "yeah you're right it was irrelevant"
@@trulytobi6464 or the more likely possibility, Noodles literally said “that’s irelevant” and swagkage said sure. Even if what you’re saying is true he dropped the argument, so it’s a concession.
@@SupremeST25 are you serious right now? “Why didn’t noodles do something other than resort to belittling him and telling him not to do it again” Noodles: “that’s irrelevant, don’t do that again” Swag : “sure” Swag agreed it was irrelevant. And agreed not to do it again because it was irrelevant Not whatever bullshit you want to make up about “why didn’t noodles do something... “ blah blah, literally listen to the time stamp in the OP’s comment Like, are you seriously going out of your way to mis characterize what happened when he literally said “that’s irrelevant, don’t do that again” That ISINT belittling him, that’s arguing that it’s Irelevant, which it WAS. If swag thought that wasn’t the case he wouldn’t have said agreed lmao. The mental gymnastics you’re going through here are hilarious If swag thought it was relevant, he WOULDVE kept trying to argue it, instead of instantly conceding. That was irrelevant, and swag conceded that point. Funny how you go through al those mental gymnastics and leave out that swag was trying to shotgun noodles here, noodles shut it down, said swag’s argument was irrelevant, and literally swagkage agreed. There’s is ACCTUAL context to what happened, and it’s time stamped for you, so why are trying to create some weird interpretation and misconstrue blatant facts?? Talking about word choice, no, this was very specific
Also Naruto was exhausted after training to run up trees in the land of waves, so it’s more likely than not that training to learn a Jutsu a genius hokage like Minato couldn’t even manage to master is gonna be extremely exhausting.
I know this is late, but I’m really glad the judges stuck up for swag a little bit in the end. Not only did 90% of noodles arguments not make sense, they weren’t even fair. Swag never got to say anything. It was just swag basically on the defense the entire time, and he didn’t even get a chance to defend, because anytime noodles felt pressured, he would either 1. Straight up tell swag to not mention other points, or 2. Say that none of swag’s counter claims mattered. How do you debate somebody like noodles, who clearly is a dishonest person, who only did this to get his proposition in, and dip? I don’t think swag should do another debate. Not unless he gets to be on the offensive the entire time in the next one. Otherwise, it would just be a waste of time. And judging off of noodle’s character based on this video, I would say it’s a waste of time.
Even though he agreed at the beginning of the debate it was only Manga and official data books to use and yet he still went against that to use audio from the anime 🤷🏻
@@ItsTokyolol that's an understatement. What drugs you on to think kakuzu stands a chance against pain that outnumbers him by 10. Or asuma can beat sage Naruto, to hell with that
Naruto took out 2 hearts with an incomplete rasenshuriken plus crippling bonus. Imagine a stronger Naruto with perfect SM plus a complete rasenshuriken but Pain still beat him.
@@jbacxtrme5649 He also try to claim that naruto is way to unpredictable so only naruto alone could trick him using distractions. That argument is so laughable its ridiculous
I wish i could believe that he was saying that unironically but he genuinely believes it smh. Someone who lacks the reaction time and strength (either raw or in numbers) to keep up with a senjutsu user and someone who does not have as much chakra as naruto uzumaki will not be able to kill him in a fight, let alone if naruto uses summons, let alone if he uses the kyubi chakra like the nine tails cloak is basically a win condition for naruto the thing is situationally naruto cant choose when to activate it (it only was activated when he fought pain because he saw something which provoked him emotionally that induced it which was hinata getting roflstomped) so unless asuma (the guy who naruto cares about the most aside from team 7 and like tsunade and stuff) is able to piss him off to that degree, he wont enter kcm but it’s not like he even has to really. Sage naruto is just...too strong for someone who is (mid to high) jonin level who also lost to the weakest member of the akatsuki meanwhile naruto in *******base******* was able to kill kakazu himself with some moderate prior assistance. sage naruto scales to pain pretty evenly so how could pain who can go up evenly against sage naruto possibly lose to a kakazu who definitely loses to sage naruto...
^^written in case anyone actually thinks kakazu would win against pain. i didnt even mention that for kakazu to win chibaku tensei has to be restricted as well as arguably the large scale version of shinra tensei (the one that decimated the hidden leaf) because kakazu would not be able to tank or evade that and even if he could theres no way he could kill the remaining paths without dying.
Someone should've told my boy noodles that Naruto can get hella exhausted just from some dang paper work🤣🤣 and training for something as brain busting as what he just did for 3 days straight...uhh yeah
Naruto literally falls over from exhaustion at the end of Pain's Assault and Kakashi catches him. I also don't think Kakuzu would point out that Naruto was disheveled if he wasn't at least somewhat fatigued during the fight, it doesn't make sense narratively. Acting like Naruto just can't be fatigued after 3 days of nothing but the most intense training he's ever been through because he has good regeneration doesn't really make sense to me.
Being a a bit of contrarian, I went into this with the intention of trying to find any part where Noodles was actually right and Swag was wrong. I only found one: Swag seems to think the Shadow Possession Jutsu has some sort of innate "time limit," but nah. Shikamaru cancels the jutsu when he can no longer exert enough chakra to hold his opponent. The opponent can resist to tire Shikamaru out faster (Tayuya). Even if you get so worn out you have to withdraw your jutsu, you can still have momentary bursts of exertion a few minutes later. Like holding a plank for a long ass time and then collapsing. After a moment, you may be able to hold a short plank again for a few seconds. It's not like you're completely "depleted" and totally useless for the rest of the day.
also they seemed to have ruled out that in the presence of natural shadows, cast from a tree for example, shikamaru can manipulate his jutsu at over half the Chakra cost. depending on the abundance of shadows cast... and for the record, shikamaru is nowhere near close Kakashi's speed.. by any scope other than intelligence.
@@tythomas8317 That's why the whole powerscaling community can get a bit... messy. I prefer to look at artist intention when I read a manga or watch an anime, not analyze every little thing scientifically. It's clear Kishimoto never intended for Shikamaru to be as fast as Kakashi. But if you use the same kind of logic present in a lot of powerscaling debates, I'm sure you could find some sort of "evidence" for it. They also make the mistake of assuming that everyone is also at peak performance all the time, and can't make slip-ups or momentary lapses in judgement. For example, there's no way Kakuzu should have fallen for Naruto's lame diversion and get hit by the Rasenshuriken. But he did anyway. Why? Because the plot demanded it. Kakuzu already had his time in the spotlight taking on all these good guys at once and the audience wouldn't want to see more of him. So he was sacrificed as a way to show Naruto's progression and signpost a significant point in the plot. Short answer, a lot of these "feats and calcs" need to be taken in narrative context.
just to clear the air since this seems to be sort of a big deal: i didn't read any of six's DMs during the debate and didn't know he was DMing me until we were done. i wasn't paying any attention to discord and muted my notifications to focus on the debate. none of my friends got responses from me, i even spaced on replying to things my fiancée sent me because i was focused on talking, combing through my own notes, and grabbing scans when necessary. for anyone who doubts me just read the messages six sent and listen to the debate. i didn't use any of his talking points. i guess some people may see this as a sign of bias on his part or something but based on what he told me near the end that "agreeing to a part 2 was in my best interest" i think it is safe to assume he wouldn't have voted for me if he thought i had lost. even if you assume the worst, and you really think six would have said i would have won no matter what (which again, i'm certain he wouldn't have), all of the other judges on panel agreed i won on the speed section. it's easy for noodles to claim collusion or whatever, but i think the claim falls apart under scrutiny. hopefully the clears things up. i really don't want this to devolve into a debate about the debate, because i know i didn't do anything wrong, and i'm pretty sure noodles knows the same.
i don't care whether people think i won or lost, i just think it's important that people know i didn't cheat and i just wish i had recorded the debate myself so i could prove it more conclusively lol.
Bruh did you see the video of noodles going super sayian against Seth and Aero? 💀💀😂😂
Yeah to put my perspective into it as well I don’t know or necessarily believe that swag cheated or anything but regardless having a judge dm arguments mid debate is a clear sign of bias and even if you think he would have voted for me, I think it would only because he may have not wanted to argue with the other judges. I also wasn’t aware that multiple of the judges were giving you arguments prior to the debate as well and were actually helping you prepare to their fullest capability. Having someone who gives you arguments judge is the equivalent of judging your own debate basically, so yeah even considering all this I’d still be willing to finish our debate with different judges or no judges like we said we would
@@jaredbowen3527 that man was goin crazy lmao
Noodles we were literally friends idk why you think i'd judge against you just because I was helping the other person.
@@sixfromtokyo because you wouldn’t be helping him if you didn’t have some investment in it
“You can run out of chakra but you can’t damage yourself from using too much”
*enter kakashi dying from using kamui on pain when he was out of chakra*
On top of that during the Chunin Exams Sasuke asks Kakashi what would happen if he tried to use Chidori despite being out of chakra and Kakashi tells him that not only would the jutsu not work properly but it could end up killing him. Don’t know how even thought that was a good point to bring up
@@blackopspro6455 literally a part one explanation then an example in shippuden. It shows he never paid much attention
Chakra is literally life force created by mixing mental and physical energy. Enough said.
He was correct in saying that, unless you release the gates using chakra cannot damage you, you simply die when u run out of chakra because it is literally your life force, the gates are there so it chakra doesn’t damage you and the only way it can is if you open the gates.
@@vilekami2142 Didn't Naruto get injuries on his hand from learning the Rasengan because of how much Chakra he was concentrating there?
swag: *rebuttals and attempts to make a counter argument*
Ramen: "I think i'm already past this, i'm just gonna move onto my next point"
Yep, noodles doesn’t understand plot points and story dynamics
Lmao called that nigga ramen 😂
I cannot fathom that ramen actually missed work to take a L this hard bruh 💀
Bruh, dude unironically thinks that kid naruto doesn't have good regen feats when he fully healed in a couple seconds from a large hole being blasted through his chest and out the other side 💀
I don’t wanna imagine that phone call, “uh I can’t come in today, I need to debate someone on an anime character”. Hell imagine he requested the day off for it lmao
Missed work just to have his whole career destroyed
💀
I can’t fathom that someone actually missed work to debate about Asian cartoons
“Shikamaru could easily blitz the entirety of the Six Paths of Pain”
What the ✨F u c k✨
Yeah noodles is literally brain dead
Yeah and asuma can beat sage mode naruto
Shikamaru solos Madara
@@vulxh for that to be possible you need to give Madara a special condition then drops his IQ by 4 digits
Shikamaru reacts to Kaguya
“are you gonna say for the camera that asuma could beat sage naruto in a fight?” 😭😹
I mean swag on camera has said ms sasuke would beat sage mode naruto and pain lol
@@mememe4188 Ms sasuke fodderizes asuma , it's not even the same thing bro
Base hebi sasuke blitzes asuma
@@adamtraan no he don’t
@@chaxx0248 sage Naruto beat pain
It's crazy how little pain vs kakuzu there is in this pain vs kakuzu debate
It’s cause pain wipes and noodle it trying to find a way where kakuzu is better than base naruto
@@gamerdude7800 why
cuz noodles wanted to stay off topic
@@Ch1pandsalsa yeah hes making the most outlandish claims
@@shadowmomochiuchiha6839 watch his latest video on kakazu vs pain.
> "Asuma beats Sage Naruto, therefore Kakuzu beats Pain"
> Refuses to elaborate
> Leaves for work
Bro, I lost my mind when Swag played that Rasengan sound effect lmfao
Can you time that for me plz
Dude I read this but hearing it was very different. That shit was DEADLY. He couldnt hear AHWDSAGHWASGSHSHSHSHSHSHSHSHSHHSHFSHFSHFHSFHSSHH ..... Dont do that!
@@insanoibro6331 1:15:54
I didn’t watch this whole debate and I’m glad I just seen that😂.
Swag was over it 😂💀
I think noodles acctually won that point.
Chidori makes a loud ass sound of lightning that’s like birds, but there was none of that sound when kakashi blitzed kakuzu, like it should’ve made that loud ass lightning sound and kakuzu would’ve heard it.
It’s a bit of a plot hole, but swagkage appealing to population and appealing to reality here was acctually silly.
Noodles definitly won that point.
Swagkage is arguing that sound waves are faster than kakuzu or Naruto.... they were reacting to sound in part 1 forest of death lmao.
He really thinks sound waves from the rasenshuriken are faster than Naruto and kakuzu who are lightning timers+???
It was so stupid of an argument. Y’all acctually agree with it??
If Kishimoto himself joined the chat and said Pain wins.
Noodles: But why tho?
For real Noodles is so unintelligent
It’s clear that if Kishimoto made them fight Pain would win and noodles is aware of that fact too,But by FEATS Kakazu would win.THAT IS what Noodles is arguing
Death of the Author
By feats my ass.. Pain pinned down sage Naruto after shitting on konoha &
then continued to fight Kurama ...base Naruto blitzed Kakazu...
@@jaredbowen3527 what is his feats compared to pain. Pain literally took over a village with nobody even knowing destroyed the strongest village in the world killed kakashi could’ve of sage mode naruto but had to take him alive
I know I'm late to this, but I think it fundamentally doesn't make sense to say Kakuzu beats Pain when you compare what it took to defeat Pain with what it took to defeat Kakuzu. Pain's clearly presented as a significantly stronger opponent by the narrative, and while Kakuzu is no pushover, he just doesn't compare to what Pain can do.
On top of the scene where pain goes to recruit kakazu and kakazu tries to fight him skips the fighting and goes straight to kakazu on his knees with pain standing (just one path of pain the entire time btw)
i mean kakuzu with hidan fought shikamaru's team with half of team 7 and lost while pain fought all of them plus a whole village and against a stronger version of naruto and only lost because he decided to bring back the rest of the village
@@promikie1239 bruh that’s a video game
@@kobesan42 which video game? Because I believe one of the storm games was presented as canon by kishimoto.
Honestly. Even the Deva path negged a fully completed Rasenshuriken with the almighty push… If that same rasenshuriken was thrown at Kakuzu he would have died.
I didn't know too much about Swagkage and thought he came off a little too strongly when debating against Seththeprogrammer. I see now what he deals with. I'm impressed how calm Swag was able to be when his opponent is saying things like "Never do that again" in a Debate about Naruto.
The "sound" argument from swag was dumb tho.
“Why is Sage Naruto more powerful than Asuma”🥲
That was a dumb point. It low key ruined his argument
Yeah. These debaters like parrot and noodles don't understand plot progression. And probably haven't really watched the show
He just wants him to prove it, debates aren’t truth battles.
💀
Time?
Shikamaru has better speedfeats than pain because he blitzed Hidan, that’s such a reach I pulled a muscle just from listening to it.
😂😂😂
Hidan is like, equal to fatigued early shippuuden kakashi without using kamui lmao
My Grandma would speedblitz Hidan
@@regobing5435 😂🤣
@Matthew yes I’ve seen her train
And Hidan is literally stated to be the slowest akatsuki member too
When noodle said “that argument is no longer relevant, why would you bring that up. Do not do that again 😡” I fucking lost it
Very disrespectful to swag
That LOUD SILENCE from swag when noodles said Shikamaru could blitz all 6 paths of pain spoke volumes
I can't believe what I'm hearing lmao
do i remember the time stamp
1:21:20
This is almost the equivalent of me saying Kurenai could solo Itachi in a genjustu battle. At that point he shouldve just logged off and went to sleep.
Boruto Era Shikamaru can definitely blitz all the paths of Pain.
He can hold down all the 5 kage, including Hokage Naruto, and their bodyguards.
He's definitely above all the Paths in Boruto's Era.
@@Faustained he couldn’t hold down naruto he himself stated that only naruto could’ve broken out
Noodles be like: "The bridge builder could keep up with Kakashi and squad 7 as they walked to the land of waves. Therefore Bridge Builder is equal to Kakashi."
Kakashi slapped Naruto and Naruto cried Naruto is nowhere near durable and Kakashi Slaps/Punches is sage mode lvl obviously 😐✋🏼
The konaha 11 kept up with naruto therefore they are all 9 tails level 😐
don't forget where was it ever stated that kakashi was faster than the bridge builder?
@@moonie1825 Bridge Builder easily solos Haku and Zabuza. They just didn't want to introduce such a crazy character so early
"We cant prove that kakashi wasnt walking at full speed"
Swag: "You use chakra to move"
Noodles: "Thats not true"
Literally the previous argument point
"Yea so Shikamaru wasnt at full speed because he was out of chakra, therefore Kakashi is slower than Shikamaru"
Noodles contradicts himself a ton throughout this debate
Hes literally an idiot. This was insane to listen too.
Check out his new video on him pulling a muscle with the reach he makes saying BASE KAKAZU is better than BASE MINATO. Apparently Minato can only beat Kakazu if he's KCM2 😂😂😂
@@josephstrand3595 ........ You're fucking with us right?
Not to mention the time limit for shadow possession is only five minutes and because Hidden is physically stronger than Shikamaru he has a harder time holding it.....add on to his fatigue.
@@andrewhutchinson3074 was I the only one laughing my ass off during this at diss man
I like how Swag actually concluded by making real points, and not purely bringing up the arguments made by Noodles. Noodles literally argued against random points in his conclusion and frankly sounded like he was misrepresenting a lot of what Swag said. I think Swag won this one - it makes narrative sense for Pain to be stronger than Kakuzu, anyway.
It's also common sense
neither of them won, swag didnt make and popints and noodle just ramble like a child and moving and when without agrrement
1:31:30
noodles: "chakra definitely affects how fast you can run"
1:46:35
swag: "yeah but you use chakra to move"
also noodles: "no that's not true"
LMAOO
Also earlier when they were debating speed he said the chakra from sage mode doesn’t and couldn’t amp Naruto’s speed
@@BussySlayercranker skullemoji, its stated that it directly increases your speed strength etc
@@captnbluehat first of all, you really want to argue with THE Bussy Slayer 90 cranker872???? Also, not my point, noodles’ point bruh, clearly said “he said”
@@BussySlayercranker im blind actually so i didnt see it, but to respond to ur first point: valid. Im sorry
This fatigued argument made me lose my mind is he really trying to claim naruto can never be fatigued
Thats basically what he was saying. Naruto can fight endlessly now apparently.
@@chadmassiah557 while it does seem that way
he was clearly getting exhausted while fighting Pain
meanwhile he was exhausted when he went against Kakuzu and managed to merk him
@@thesun5275 r//wooosh
@@charleswhitefullbusteruchi1972 A Charlie stan and a woosh in one go?
Re-evaluate yourself.
Didn’t Naruto get tired DURING his fight with Pain? Lmao
The amount of patience swag has is unreal lol
Ik how did he not lose his shit
@@JHproductions15 he kinda did
@@hiiamsosorryapostles7992 not really he really just kinda sat there and said why what they were saying wasn’t correct half the time he’s getting talked over and he doesn’t care
@@JHproductions15 he did😂
@@CoolOkay_ 😹😹🤣😹🤣😂😹😂😹😂😹🤣😹😂😹😂😹😂😄😹😹😂😹🤣🤣😂😹😹😹🤣😅😹🤣😂😂😹🤣😹😂😹😂😹😂😹🤣😅😹🤣😹😂😂😂😹😹😹😂😹😹😂😹😂😹😂😹😹😂😹😂😂😹😅🤣🤣😹😹🤣😂😹🤣😹😹😹😹🤣🤣😂😂🤣😹😂😂😹😂😹😂😹😂😹😂😹😹😂😹😂😹😂😂😹😂😂😂😂😂😹😹🤣😂😹🤣😹🤣😹🤣😹😹🤣😂😅😅😹🤣😹🤣🤣😹🤣😂😂😹😂😹😹🤣😹🤣😄🤣😃😹😹🤣🎶🤡😂🎶😄😄😂😹
Best part of this debate is “Shikamaru would blitz any of the six paths of pain”
When Pain literally just blitzed the whole village
Thank you for having the dumbest arguments ever Noodles😂
Pain didn’t blitz the whole village tsunade & her slugs saved ppl before the impact of ST,Kakashi fights the 2 strongest pains & reacts to both path,random shinobi are reacting to the pains,kiba,konohamaru.
@@Kmarks_okay Pain doesn't have much speed feat but the fact that he casually reacted to Kakashi's raikiri and SM Naruto from point blank range just shows that Pain ain't that slow for Kakuzu to blitz him....Kakuzu could be slightly whatever but he definitely ain't fast enough to blitz Pain and Pain definitely can react to Kakuzu's attacks on time...the only time that Pain takes notice of someone's speed was when the kyubi took control of Naruto and entered 6 tails
@@DS-dw3pz the deva path was throwing hands with base Naruto…not 1 time on scan he was able to dodge or tag sm Naruto & he was running from the kubi 6 tails but the less pains the faster he is so that was his fastest feat when he fights he will have all 6 vs Kakazu & that will make him slower because nagato has to share chakra to each pain.
@@DS-dw3pz random shinobi was reacting to the other pains only deva path & the asura path can react but pain durability is not that good especially when all 6 pains are up so he’s getting 1 shot & he can’t use full power CT or ST unless the other pains are down.
@@Kmarks_ you are saying like Kakuzu was able to blitz Hidan when Shikamaru controlled him...if Kakuzu was that much faster then he should have just ran past Hidan and blitz Shikamaru then lol....like I said I agree that Pain didn't show that much feat against random shinobi but that's because he didn't need to...Tendo Pain was able to react to Kakashi, Choji, and Choza all at the same time...and that was when all the paths of pain were still active...even if you dw to consider that as a speed feat,he was able to react to a stronger and less fatigue Kakashi...and tendo Pain did react to SM Naruto but he just couldn't handle the physical strength used by Naruto which sent him flying...and controlling all six paths of pain has nothing to do with their physical abilities...only if they want to focus on a specific jitsu on a large scale for example like Shinra tensei then only Nagato has to focus it on one of the Pains cz like I said Tendo Pain was able to react to Kakashi despite all the other Pains still active...cz in that case Tendo Pain should have been blitzhing Naruto when the other Pains were defeated since now he's the only Pain left if really their physical attributes are also affected and focusing on one Pain makes that Pain faster
Noodles: *shot guns a ton of points*
Swagkage: *tries to respond to his points*
Noodles: "Stop shot gunning"
"that's irrelevant to this argument. why did you bring that up? don't do that again."
You can tell no one takes him serious in every day life when he responds to something like this...
Man, what pissed me off was when Swag was like, “are you gonna let me finish” and he goes, “No, fuck you, I’m not gonna let you finish” like dude you’re a fucking child
That was hilarious! Still liked the debate. Noodle seems like a cool guy prolly just got heated in this debate cuz they’re both getting really nit picky with their defenses
@@kassygo1375 Nah
From argument disposition, to his behavior in a debate, Noodles has proven to be lame as hell.
@@kassygo1375 turns out noodles jus got exposed for being racist as shit, lying about doxing against Seth and a bunch of other shit
@@verachez5319 yo whatd all this about I wanne see the beef
Swag: Is unable to get his points across, constantly interrupted, uses Noodles own arguments against him.
Noodles: “DeIdArA OnE ShOt IsObU”
“aSuMa BeAtS sAgE nArUtO”
I need that time stamp 😩
@@GoldenDragonMonkey 8:20 29:00
Facts 😂
Don’t leave out swagkage shotgunning noodles the ENTIRE debate lmao.
@@trnrred489 Fuckin facts my guy
by the way, fatigue is WAY more complicated than muscle fiber tears. there's fatigue toxins, and brain repair. if Naruto's regeneration was enough to combat training for 3 days straight and then goes to fight right after completing the training, he'd never need to sleep cause at that rate he'd just be able to regen brain functionality and dispell fatigue toxins constantly
What up Jashin?
"Shikamaru would blitz the Six Paths of Pain" is really a hill he thought he should die on.
"You can't prove Naruto's fatigued"
"And you can't prove Deidara only used one bomb"
*oh shit he's right* "that's irrelevant"
Didn’t he say don’t bring that up again after he said that’s irrelevant 😂
All noodle done was make a point then swag would use the same point the noodle would say that irrelevant
"that's irrelevant, don't do that again"
@@tylerholm3504 What kind of pompous shit is that man
@@too_many_beans8737 For real, I was like, "Goddamn, calm down little boy." He was nuts
A fatigued Naruto beat Kakuzu, with a little help.
A Buffed Naruto who was stronger than he was in the Kakuzu fight, could barley beat a weakened Pain....
That pretty much sums it all up.
Exactly
Not to mention that Pain hard counters Kakuzu with shinra tensei and gakido.
Seth: I can just one-shot this debate
*The argument* :
Plus he needed to go sage mode AND to RIP THE FUCKING SEAL OFF
@Allen naruto was also supposed to be in the village earlier but donzo killed the messenger toad lol
This Noodles dude should stick to his day job at IHOP. I seriously can’t believe people regard him as a good debater. Nearly every argument he had was countered by swag and noodles go to rebuttal was just “not necessarily”. Also I know it’s a debate and things can get heated but so many times Noodle was just blatantly rude, not to mention him constantly trying to take some intellectual high ground over swag by saying things like “ You don’t understand how to create an anti feat” when he clearly doesn’t know how to formulate a valid anti feat himself. Dude just made himself look like a moron throughout this entire debate.
It’s lil Caesar😂
You clearly don’t understand how debates work. Swag got low diffed
@@Slickydicky69420No lol
@@Slickydicky69420lmao
Imagine risking your job at work to lose a Naruto debate
He took everything so seriously too. So embarrassing.
Edit: just read his replies on the pinned comment and that's even worse lol
Swag surprised me. He made noodles look stupid a couple of times and noodles is considered a good debater. Swag definitely won
More like a stalemate.
@@mememe4188 not really I think swag won he brought up good points and was on the attack
I mean Pain >>> is just way stronger than Kakazu
This would have been more of a debate if it was Obito vs Pain
@@mememe4188 the judges said swag won on the speed argument
@@sankeerthkoshy61 pre rinnigan Obito is interesting he has some weird statements but some decent feats, like he was a rival to itachi but consider sick Itachi a big threat, and I think he even called Pain the strongest meme bet though as we know that doesn’t mean Pain would win cause like Kamui and stuff exist but it’d definitely be a tough fight.
The whole “ a bomb” arguement drove me nuts. Boxer A knocks out boxer B with “ a punch” but it doesn’t mean there wasn’t any other punches thrown.
Yeah, “a punch” is not “only one punch”.
If you see a head line that says, "boxer knocked down after a punch" what does it insinuate...that he was knocked out in 1 punch FFS
@@PlatanOsO this isn’t true either, if i heard this phase i wouod assume that someone was just knocked out by a punch. i wouodnt assume the person got one shorted
Okay lets put it this way. Ufc is probably a better example. If someone asks you how did so and so win and you said A head kick. That doesn’t mean that other punches, kicks and take downs didn’t happen in the fight, but it was still A head kick that finished him…… don’t even argue this lol
@@senzubeanguru4878 well no. Based on the info we know they just used s head kick. It's just like how when my wife said she fucked my friends, she only fucked my friends and not the mailman and landlord.
The fact that Noodle didn't make a single correct point in an entire 2 and a half hour debate is crazy.
Argument 1:
Premise 1: Kakuzu is one of the deadliest people in the Akatsuki
Premise 2: Deidara is on the bottom half of the Akatsuki in power
Conclusion: Therefore, Kakuzu's attacks have higher AP than Deidara.
To support Premise 1, he uses an end of chapter statement. These aren't a canon part of the story and are made to sell more of the story. Even if they were, there are 3 end of chapter statements that Pain is the strongest member of the Akatsuki. This premise is either incorrect or self-defeating.
To Support Premise 2, he gives nothing at all. He just appeals to Swag. This premise would require him to give 5 characters with higher AP than Deidara in the Akatsuki, and this can't include Kakuzu, or else the Premise requires circular reasoning, and it can't include Pain, because he takes this argument to say that any of Kakuzu's attacks oneshot Pain, which he concludes because any of Deidara's attacks oneshot pain.
The conclusion doesn't even follow from the two premises, either. Kakuzu is a professional assassin who has 5 lives, 360° vision, and ways of attacking 5+ times at once. He also can't run out of his attacks, unlike Deidara. He's also much better at sneak attacks, as shown when he sneak attacks Asuma and Shikamaru, while Deidara makes himself known in every fight he's been in. Deidara also consistently misses kills that are nearly absolute, while Kakuzu has actually gotten a kill in the series. So, Kakuzu can be deadlier due to hax, consistency, and accuracy, and not AP.
Argument 2:
Premise 1: Deidara has Country level AP with a casual bomb
Premise 2: Pain doesn't have Country level durability
Conclusion: Therefore, Kakuzu oneshots Pain
Premise 1 is blatantly wrong. He says this because Deidara beat Isobu, who could take Bijuu Bombs. However, the only Bijuu bombs that have ever been calced at Country Level are ones used by Rinnegan and Sharingan amped perfect Jinchurikis, not by Tailed Beasts who don't even have a Jinchuriki. Deidara also didn't oneshot Isobu. The entire point that he does requires a misunderstanding of everything. It showed Deidara using one bomb, then it cut away, then it came back to the same exact place with dead Isobu. That wouldn't be necessary if that one bomb killed Isobu. The databook also only says Deidara used a bomb AND captured Isobu, which doesn't apply a causal link. This also ignores the fact that Japanese doesn't even have plurals, so unless he shows the raw scans, this can be dismissed on that basis alone.
Premise 2 is also fundamentally incorrect. Tendo Pain was able to survive a Bijuu Bomb from 6 Tails Naruto, which was stated to be in par with other Jinchurikis. On top of that, 6 Tails Naruto's Island Level calc underestimates the size of Konaha. If you properly size Konoha, the feat is Country Level. Also, just because a character hasn't been blatantly shown to survive attacks that bust a country (which Pain has), doesn't mean they can't have Country level durability via inverse scaling.
The conclusion only follows if we grant that both arguments are true, when neither are. If both arguments were true, then the conclusion would logically follow.
Entertaining comments
@@xdragon540 Nice argument outlines
love how noodles got EXTREMLY defensive when swag brought up that what they where talking about earlerier and how he could'nt prove it and it's the same thing that noodles is trying to call swag out for and tries saying that its not relevant and saying to never do it again like he was swags dad or some
Naruto trained hard for 3 days: “ that doesn’t mean he’s exhausted” that is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard, y’all really think noodles is a good debater lmao.
Someone should've told my boy noodles that Naruto can get hella exhausted just from some dang paper work🤣🤣 and training for something as brain busting as what he just did for 3 days straight...uhh yeah
@@coolranch_handsome_doritoz nah what are you talking about haven't you seen Naruto regenerate from litterly just 1 atom Naruto is fine he can't get exausted it's physically impossible...
Jk obviously he can
A little late but wouldnt naruto training be made in mind with his faster recovery speed
@@soullemur7880 naruto trained for 3 days with no sleep at all. And then immediately ran as fast as possible to fight kakuzu. He was hella exhausted
@@soullemur7880 it wouldn't matter he would still get exausted it's not like his chakra is recovering from 3 days of relentless training over night it takes time even with op healing
Swag won when the topic about Sage Naruto not being stronger than Asuma was brought up.
Swag won when Noodles thinks a weakened naruto is stronger than a Full Power Sage Amped Naruto, this is basically what Noodles is implying
Noodle’s aggressive approach on head canon made him vulnerable to irredeemable facts. Swag wins debate or not. Pain would stomp lmao
I think Noodles won
@@MattDaddyTV explain how if you don’t mind me asking
@@TheBeasty233 Swag had help from the judges which automatically disqualifies him
Kakazu with hidan were struggling for a bit against Kakashi, shikamaru, choji and Ino
Pain solos the ENTIRE LEAF VILLAGE.
End of debate.
Noodle: *Lectures swag about possibilities*
Also Noodle: Well Obito didn't help in the fight because Deidara makes a shady comment, it's possible that Deidara did 99.9% of the work but Obito did only .1%
This dude said kakuzu reacted to Yugito once and once was all he needed to prove relativity. And yet still argues that Naruto tagging kakuzu 2 times doesn't make them relative. Hypocrisy
(0,1%)
Swag argument was trying to mix up the word play when it literally says “a bomb and successfully captures isobu”, obviously it’s meant singularly.. 🤦♂️
Dudes entire argument about why Kakuzu would win was entirely hypothetical and semantic games 🤣 an ounce of common sense trashes his argument
The moment he said “what makes Sage Naruto stronger then Asuma” I knew it was over
remember when Tobi tries to warn Pain that Naruto one shotted Kakuzu, and konan was like "yeah thats nothing Pain never lost a battle"
and Tobi was like "yh wtf am i saying" lol
Noodles: "you need to prove everything or else it's an unquantifiable argument and therefore invalid"
Also noodles when pressented with a fact: "Nah let's move on"
Noodles just extrapolated too much from vague statements and little showings while asking for concrete proof on anything Swag said. What a hypocrite.
@AeroFhazed bro dont waste ya time, this debate was stupid to begin with. they talking about quantum physics and relativity in an ANIME DEBATE
@Jesus Pernia In the nicest possible way, then this part of the community isn't for you. This is a part of the community that finds that overthinking element kind of fun. If you don't (and you hate it) you should just steer clear, as there are plenty who don't like it as well and are off doing other things.
Jesus Pernia there’s a lot other than debating that is actually toxic dude debating is a human instinct to have it be fun debating started in the agriculture era
Noodles sure loves to use the “you don’t know” argument to downplay swag’s point but then in the same breath, use unquantifiable events as proof for his own argument, Jesus Christ
he already went in with a pre determined notion and wasn’t gonna validate anything swag had to say.
@@dyllianaire7348 exactly. Just assume he won’t have valid arguments and ignores him when he does, then act like you dominated him
@@kcammons bro really came off extremely rude sometimes, i’m surprised swag kept composure
To be fair he was probably doing this because he was salty about swags first point: "you dont know if deidara used one bomb or multiple".
@@animangusz7505 exactly. Total shutdown
swags patience is beyond the roof bro 😂😂
Wasn’t Naruto’s nine tails chakra completely suppressed by Yamato for 3 days. And if the nine tails chakra is what regenerates naruto. Wouldn’t that mean he’s more fatigued than he’d usually be because the chakra was suppressed. Not to mention he left the training field to go fight kakuzu without rest?
No
@@HC-gm4fo it was
@@Rackzda0G He was causing the nine tailed chakra to not go out of control not block it off completely
@@HC-gm4fo he suppressed it so he couldn’t use it wym
.......Thank you
"Shikamaru blitzes Pain", whatever you say my guy lol
Shikamaru> hidan> pain
Trolling bro😂😂😂
Imo saying kakuzu beats pain is the same as arguing A would beat minato if it wasn't for flying raijin or danzo would beat sasuke if it wasn't for the sharingan lol
Shikumaru is faster than Kakashi... yea this guy is off his rocker. Kakashi repeatedly dodged attacks from 4 masks and hidan as they tag teamed him. Shikumaru dodged a punch...
@Isaiah Brown actually yes shikamaru would beat the same 3 tails deidara fought
That's not farfetched lol
Noodle Is Stupid
Wait people are still on the "Kakuzu can beat Pain" thing? I would think it's pretty clear Pain wins.
By far too
Pain wins but its actually debatable
@@tano3166 Its not debatable lol.
its not about if he really would its about who can debate his side better
@@aleksamilosevic8792 yes it is
Thanks for watching the debate guys! Next week we’re doing Obito vs rock lee, look forward to it!
😂😂😂😂😂
Clearly rock lee wins because, due to his lack of chakra which in theory shouldn’t allow him to move as fast as he does but he’s just a genius, doesn’t allow him to be affected at all by any chakra attacks nor by genjustu cause everyone knows genjustsu affects the victims chakra, which rock lee doesn’t have.
Or 1 white zetzu vs perfect susano madara
@@ICantSnipe88 Ik it’s a troll argument but lee has chakra he just can’t use jutsu
Rock lee wins because obito was beaten by rock before
Noodles could’ve actually had a decent chance here if he wasn’t so abrasive towards swag the entire argument
But he’s just straight up wrong. What is there to debate?
“You think sage Naruto and base Naruto are the same speed?” .....”yeah” 😂
timestamp?
@@winterx9304 59:30
he agreed that they were relative* my dude, not the same. theres a difference
Sage mode is a boost to speed too, not just strength. It's literally shown in Jiraiya's fight with Pain when he blitzs one of the Paths with the Odama Rasengan and is able to cross the entire battlespace in the time it took his sandal to fall a few feet.
@@xanatos819 a Sage Naruto clone was faster than the Third Raikage obviously he's so much faster than BASE Naruto
that shit he said about kakuzu holding back was literally brain dead that’s like saying guy is holding back for not goin 8th gate every fight
I'm pretty sure Nagato would bend over CockAzzOOO, give him the Almighty PUSH, and show him true "Pain"🤣🤣🤣💀
CockAzzOOO may have multiple hearts, but he's only got one rectum😂😂😂😭
@@coolranch_handsome_doritoz bruh chill😂😂
Yeah
@@coolranch_handsome_doritoz 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Swag was strawmanning hard
Swag: “it’s stated by obito and deidara”
Noodles: “no it’s stated by tobi”
in all naruto games tobi is a different chsrscter to Obito
My brain after hearing noodle say that:🫠🫠🫠
I'm going to go on a point by point analysis of this debate over the next week. I'll be editing my comment and replying to it until I've fully analyzed this entire exchange to my liking. Once I am finished I hope to have a fair assessment of both participant's actual contributions by scoring the actual argumentation, their etiquette, their consistency within the material, and their consistency as speakers.
-Argumentation has to do with if they're constructing good arguments or making faulty assertions.
-Etiquette has to do with rhetorical low blows, fallacies, and other distractions that don't contribute to a fair debate.
-Consistency with material pertains to if their argument (well constructed or not) makes sense within Naruto.
-Consistency as speakers has to do with how much they end up back pedaling on their arguments.
Acknowledging my biases, I've watched the full video once and am heavily against Noodles due to my disdain for his argumentation style. This is mainly an exercise in venting my frustrations for how he conducts himself as a debater (I believe it is especially abhorrent even though I disagree with some of the debate bro tactics that Seth and Swag use. Noodles is on another level in my mind). I will not shy away from calling him out for the stuff he does that I find ridiculous, but I will do my best to be fair to him where his behavior is something I disagree with as opposed to erroneous, and I expect you all to keep me honest on that. That said, let's get started.
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First and foremost, I do not necessarily understand the rules of the debate but I do think that the judges need to be the ones to enforce them (for example, warnings for gish galloping and also specifying when a participant is interrupting the other). The fact that one participant in particular was able to use threats of a gish gallop DQ against the other, erroneously while also interrupting that participant's points CONSTANTLY is an oversight. But I'll try not to interfere with the implied judgement metrics and as I am judging this debate myself I will refrain from bringing external details into my judgement. But I will mention certain potential arguments where I feel like--just know that these don't factor into my judgement.
I'm going to go through the issues point by point.
1. Kakuzu being one of the deadliest Akatsuki and therefore more powerful than Deidara.
Noodles makes this claim while Swag attempts to explain that this statement doesn't mean that one can output more force than the other. This ends up being a small concession in the beginning, but Kakuzu is one of the oldest members of the akatsuki and has been assassinating people for money for a long time. He could be the deadliest in respect to how much death he's caused. There is no reason that deadliest pertains to combat strength or Destructive Capacity. Deidara is weaker than Sasori and would lose to him in a fight, but Sasori has much lower destructive capacity and arguably attack potency. This is also true for Itachi who is obviously stronger than Deidara but would not be able to cause the same level of destruction that Deidara can. Saying that Kakuzu's ninjutsu or punches must be equal to the power of Deidara's explosives is as pointless as saying that because shikamara is a Chunin on the Sasuke retrieval mission that he must be able to output as much force as the rasengan. There are other ways for Kakuzu to be deadlier than Deidara without having the same attack potency, like in Sasori's case with poison, dexterity, and versatility.
2. Durability of the paths of pain
This will be a recurring issue, but originally Swag claims that the abilities that the individual Paths of pain possess should be included in the assessment of their durability. Noodles clarifies that he's looking for base physical durability without hax included while simultaneously claiming that those abilities don't actually factor into the Pains' durability. The issue with this is that you can't disregard the information because it isn't relevant due to you having asked a different question then diminish the efficacy of that ability in the same breath. If you're arguing Kakuzu's stats, it's up to your opponent to argue Pain's. Trying to nullify the argument ahead of time by dismissal as opposed to disproving is in poor taste (especially because Noodles said himself that they would get to the hax part later--essentially "we'll get to it later, but it's irrelevant."). Lack of etiquette.
3. "A" Clay Bomb
Based on the wording for this specific statement, Noodles attempts to claim that Deidara dropping an average clay bomb took out the 3-tails. He relates this to Kakuzu being deadlier than Deidara by implying that Kakuzu can output as much force as Deidara. Swag's argument is that the wording doesn't mean that only Deidara's one attack put the 3 tails down. But also Swag says that even if this were the case, that doesn't mean that Kakuzu has the same attack potency.
-----> 3.1 Occam's Razor
Noodles claims that they must use the simplest explanation to say that they must assume that Deidara must have used a basic level bomb to defeat the 3-Tails. Due to the fact that Sasuke had survived being blown up by a bomb that hit his wing in Curse State 2 (and he didn't even lose the battle), it is safe to assume that Deidara's standard bombs don't pack bijuu level attack potency or that what he used on the 3-tails was stronger. Using Occam's razor to imply that we must accept that Deidara's fodder attacks are 3-Tails level while also ignoring that this means that Sasuke's wing would also have 3-tails level durability and Gaara's face would as well (because he took point blank bombs to the face) is an oversight and undermines his point. It is more likely that Deidara used a special bomb for the 3-tails to differentiate it from the other two examples if we accept that he only used one bomb.
3. "A" Clay Bomb
Furthermore, with the revelation that Obito helped out with the fight against the 3-tails there is much more contention. The statement "Deidara uses a clay bomb and captures the 3-tails" is not a commentary of the entirety of what happens. There are no indicators such as "only" or "just" to squarely indicate exclusivity. Therefore, even if the statement read "Deidara uses a clay bomb [to] capture the 3-tails" as Swag suggests would be the version that aides Noodles argument, there is still no time distinction meaning the statement is still not exclusive to only one explosive.
"Naruto used a Rasengan and defeated Kabuto." In this example, we can go to the reference material and say that the only thing naruto did was hit kabuto with a rasengan. A singular rasengan was all he threw.
"Naruto used a Rasengan and defeated the 3rd raikage." This is also an instance where naruto did use a single rasengan to defeat the raikage--but there was also a lot of things that took place before that moment. The rasengan was only the decisive blow.
"Naruto used a shadow clone to fool Neji and won the battle." Naruto did Fool neji with a clone at the end of their battle, but he also used several other clones and the ninetails chakra in that fight. Also the battle was decided by a punch but it wouldn't be inaccurate to say that naruto used a Shadow clone and defeated Neji.
My point is, each one of these statements^^^ uses "a" to describe a singular thing that exists non-exclusively within the fight. There can still be others not covered by this statement that are relevant nonetheless for our purposes as debaters. You have to prove an exclusive link between the "a" and the object.
Finally, there is a time cut between the start of the 3-tails fight and the conclusion which is where obito asks if Deidara saw his jutsu (meaning that obito did have time to use a jutsu). This further casts doubt on the idea that Deidara swooped in and simply blew up the 3-tails in one go. Occam's Razor would suggest that the time cut between the first attack and the conclusion of the battle implies that more happened between.
4. You don't know how possibilities work
Swag detracts from the positive claim "We know Deidara only used one paper bomb due to the wording" using the possibilities that Deidara used more than one. Noodles responds by saying that because his assertion is more likely than those other possibilities that using them is baseless assumption--which is flawed. When making a positive claim (x is y because z), that assertion should be a direct relationship caused by the proposition. If one can point out alternative possibilities, then one has undermined the positive claim by casting doubt. Basic argumentation. In other words, Swag isn't claiming that Noodles CAN'T be right, but he is pointing out that he could be wrong which means that Noodles is the one dealing in possibilities. He is basing his argument on the possibility that Deidara one shot the 3-tails and not the certainty. The fact that there is a cut between Deidara launching his attack and capturing the 3-tails without any indication of the cut picking up right after he launched his attack is a realistic debunk of the one-shot take. Isobu got off-screened, not one shot. Even if he was one-shot, this was off-screen and not stated so it is therefore technically invalid.
Pt. 1 Fin.
Hit the character limit for now, so this is a good place to end the first part. Won't take long for me to come back with the next one, so see ya soon!
Pt. 2 We're starting up at 24:08
5. Can Kakuzu's punches knock out the 3 tails
Noodles states that he still believes that Kakuzu scales about Deidara's 2nd strongest bomb (most likely referring to Kakuzu being deadlier than Deidara as an explanation again--which is erroneous to begin with). In pressing him about this swag asks if Kakuzu hit Asuma and if he was fine afterwards. Noodles implies that since Asuma doesn't have any scaling outside of Kakuzu that it's not an anti feat or a way of downplaying Kakuzu. To this, I would simply say that Asuma has no scaling that places him in the level of power of the 3-tails or that level of durability. So at the very least we reasonably can conclude that base Kakuzu's punches are not 3-tail level or on the same level as Deidara's bomb that he theoretically used to one-shot the 3-tails.
Furthermore looking back at part one when Asuma did fight Kisame and Itachi, itachi believed that Kisame would be able to dispatch Kurenai and Asuma without causing a scene, but not Kakashi. Whether this is because Kakashi is a more troublesome or adept fighter than Asuma and Kurenai, or because he is blatantly stronger than the two, is up in the air. It is debatable that Kakashi should scale somewhat above Asuma based on this as the only real scaling that he has in the series. This wouldn't be inconsistent since Asuma also scales above Hidan like Kakashi but admittedly this is me adding context into the argument that isn't present in the debate. I'll try to stick to the content provided.
----------> 5.1 Asuma and Pain don't share any scaling
Swag asks Noodles if Asuma would survive the chidori and Noodles implies that Pain didn't either. Swag responds by pointing out that the Asura path did get hit by the chidori and didn't die. While it was incapacitated, it was still able to fire off attacks and threaten Choji's life. Noodles responds with an argument that this doesn't mean that the Asura path scales above asuma since durability and survivability are two different things--which to Noodles credit is true. The example he uses of a zombie isn't the worst comparison as a zombie can continue crawling without both legs, but you wouldn't say that the zombie has shotgun level durability just because it's still moving after its legs were blown off due to the significant decrease in capability it experiences after the attack. Now, that said, an oversight on both participants part regarding the comparison between Asuma surviving Kakuzu's punches and the Asura path surviving the raikiri are not comparable. Asuma barely taking damage from Kakuzu's punch and the Asura path taking massive damage from a Raikiri cannot be quantifiably measured/compared unless you take into account that Kakuzu's punches are supposed to be 3-tails level according to Noodles earlier point. At the very least the only two logical conclusions are that Asuma scales far above the paths of pain if Kakuzu's punches are 3-tails level (because the Raikiri clearly isn't) or that Kakuzu's attack potency scales far below the raikiri on a physical level which undermines the idea that his punches are 3-tails level. (The conversation they have about choji in an attempt to scale him above Asuma is wasted effort).
6. Holding back
Swag says that Since Pain is blocking punches from Sage naruto and Asuma survived Kakuzu's punches, pain should scale above Asuma. Swag says that since Kakuzu swapped hands with KCM naruto in the war that he can essentially be scaled to KCM, but swag tries to counter this by saying Naruto was holding back as he was fighting Kakuzu with a shadow clone and trying to conserve stamina. Noodles counters by saying that unless there is a statement or implicative evidence that we can't assume that the person is holding back. Noodles then goes on to say that because Kakuzu when he enters his next form is stated to have his chakra swell accordingly that he was holding back. Swag says that this doesn't mean he was necessarily holding back but that he transformed and Noodles condescendingly says, "Swag. Did you just say that outloud?"
So, breaking this section down, there's a little more chatting on the subject before Swag concedes and they move on to speed, but Noodles issue here is that he's making points that don't benefit his argument as a whole while also making poor arguments. By saying that someone not using their maximum form or abilities means they're holding back, he is admitting that the KCM naruto that fought Kakuzu was holding back because it was a clone and not the real Naruto (shadow clones are weaker and have limited chakra) meaning that we can't scale Kakuzu to KCM from that alone. Furthermore, this implies that because it wasn't stated that Kakuzu was holding back when fighting team asuma that he was going all out with each punch. Bottom line, it's a weird argument and it doesn't work to prove or disprove anything. Sometimes characters put their all into their attacks, sometimes they intentionally hold back and it's stated, and other times the way that they fight simply doesn't encourage them to go all out from the beginning. The best way to describe this particular argument is frivolous--it only muddies the conversation and is inherently arbitrary. If you want to make a case that someone is holding back, you definitely can. All you have to do is provide supporting evidence--such as, "Naruto is conserving his strength so that his clones can visit as many battlefields as possible." Solid.
7. Speed Blitz
"Through Speed, not through some kind of other ability."
In this section Noodles claims that Kakuzu Speed blitzes Naruto and his clones but that naruto is saved by kakashi and Yamato. Noodles defines blitz as a person being overwhelmed by the speed of another before they're able to react. The claim is that Kakazu is in a higher speed tier than Naruto and that because Kakuzu was able to defeat Naruto's clones and nearly kill him that he is above base naruto in speed. Noodles even says specifically that Kakuzu's Tentacles are faster. The weird thing about this argument is that Kakuzu's tentacles are "some kind of other ability" as opposed to a matter of his speed. They have much longer range and also there's a massive amount of them. To say that Naruto being overwhelmed or tagged by Kakuzu's tentacles is a matter of Kakuzu's combat speed in this form ignores the fact that naruto doesn't have any tools to deal with them even if he is fast enough to react to them (kakashi is shown using the raikiri to cut them, which suggests that they are durable). It's not like Naruto could pull out a kunai and deal with them--which is evidenced by the fact that before Kakashi saves him, Naruto is basically dead to rights. So calling this a speed blitz is already strange, but what this actually does do for Noodles argument in building up kakuzu is to characterize the durability of his tentacles and threads. We can say pretty definitively that Kakuzu is consistently shown at Kakashi's level of speed. Using this contentious scaling doesn't change that.
8. Dishevel Leveled
Swag brings up that Naruto should be fatigued here considering his training and that Kakuzu remarks that Naruto looks disheveled. Noodles denies this and says that disheveled only means that he essentially looks untidy, comparing naruto's appearance to if he'd just gotten out of bed that morning. Swag responds
that training for 3 days is not comparable to getting out of bed and this point devolves into Noodles claiming that Swag can't prove that Naruto is fatigued by the training.
Narrative implications are real. They are technically more important than scaling when comparing characters and the like because if the scaling contradicts the narrative then the scaling should adjust to match the narrative (since the author's intent matches the narrative). Now this is not iron clad 100% all the time, but the reason this is important is because the question "Why does Kakuzu point out Naruto's appearance," informs the question of if Naruto is fatigued. From a narrative perspective, Kakuzu isn't some frivolous character who judges people's appearances and Naruto isn't commonly regarded as Disheveled compared to the rest of the cast. Most of the ninja on or coming to a battlefield did so by high-speed travel, so nobody reasonably is meant to look pristine and fresh pressed. So Kakuzu pointing out Naruto's appearance here is narratively significant. What we can draw from this is that Naruto came straight from training and that the training was reasonably intense because he is visibly worn, dirty, or disheveled. Especially with the content of Naruto's training involving being suppressed by Yamato (due to the nine tails) and taking damage, we can further support this narrative. But again, Noodles here is making the argument that if the story doesn't explicitly state something then we can't assume that thing even though the story heavily implies it.
It's again a weird argument for him to make since the story doesn't explicitly state or even imply at all that Kakuzu is stronger than pain. Js
-------->8.1 Regeneration
Noodles also makes this argument that regeneration in Naruto regenerates stamina as well as damage. I understand that Noodles is saying that Naruto can't be experiencing muscular tenderness and stuff since he can heal and therefore he wouldn't be fatigued, but the idea that Naruto's energy levels can be low even while his chakra levels are high is still true (otherwise ninja would never fall asleep unless they experienced combat). He can still not be at his best because he's been exerting himself without proper rest--indicated by his appearance.
I swear this section has so many issues that I can barely sort the problems out neatly (went over the word count so I had to delete a couple points). Man I'm barely 45 minutes in and I've only addressed arguments.
Replying to all this info so I can come back to it 👍🏾👍🏾❤️
@@andrebullock4102 Sorry I didn't see this message and ended up giving up at the 45 minute mark because I couldn't stand one of the two participants. I'm gonna come back and finish it! Thanks for the support
@@romeospells2487 i listened to the full thing while playing games so wasn't paying much attention and noodles sounded so logical and calmed it was swag who rubbed me the wrong way.
It was surprising when i read the comments and checked the captions how much bs he was able to claim, my favourite being that shikamaru could blitz the 6 paths of pain 😆
He just focus too much on logic, those things like strowman, shotgunning, galloping, fallacies etc he thinks he's so smart that forgets to actually make sense...everything he says is a huge stretch like saying training 3 days and looking dishoveled in a cartoon doesn't mean the character is tired...sure the characters just pointed it out cause they didn't like naruto wasn't looking cute lol
@@sakurasfish2115 another way of putting it is that he structures his arguments to prove his point, he doesn't follow a logical path to find the truth. That's why it's easy for him to ignore the obvious gaps in his ideas
The fact that Noodles is still backing Kakazu and saying he'd beat Pain has resulted in me losing respect for Noodles lol
I give him credit for playing Devil's Advocate though.
I dont think he belives it actually. He is just doing it
@@kakashihatake6052 No that's a cope. he was getting mad lol
Noodles probably thinks he could solo pain himself tbh
dude kakuzu would roll pain without any problem
“sage mode doesn’t make you physically faster” *cut to Jiraiya kicking the human path blind while he’s mid rush*
*Cuts to Naruto chucking multiton Rhino over his fucking head*
@@malumkishin8608 cuts to Naruto fighting the 3rd Raikage
@@KingpenGames cut to Naruto with enhanced Senjutsu (Six Paths Senjutsu) blitzing and kicking away Madara's truth seeker orb as it was gonna eradicate Guy's body
@@aozorahaou2643 cuts to naruto punching juubidara before he could react then cutting him in half with a rasenshuriken
Cuts to Naruto having better Combat Speed than Tendo Pain with Sage Mode while getting tagged by the Animal Path in Base and blitzing the Asura Path in Sage Mode.
Yeah, Sage Mode doesnt give you Combat Speed
Shit that came from this lookin a whole lot different now
Just because kakazu would beat deidara doesn't mean you give all of deidaras feats to kakazu
Omni man beat red rush dont mean omni man is faster than red rush. Deidaras specifically good at destructive capabilities thats his whole thing exploding.
Like tobirama would probably beat deidara doesn't mean tobirama has stronger hits
Hearing this guy argue that someone looking disheveled to the point of being noticeable wouldn't imply exhaustion after 3 days of physical and mental exertion made ME so exhausted that I now look disheveled myself.
Lmao
Listen to this y'all
Noodles: "Tobi could have planted landmines"
Swag: That's what I'm saying, Tobi could have planted landmines
Noodles: "When did Tobi ever have landmines?"
Bruh I'm dead😭
Like even Swag was like "Wait a minute, this whole operation was your idea!"
@@Sonic759100 I was dead
Lmao what’s the time stamp for that😂
@@joestarlineage5838 22:24
I lost all my brain cells listening to noodle
My thing is that even if you give him every point he made and say Kakuzu is strong enough to one shot every path and fast enough to actually be able to hit every path, he still hasn't addressed how Kakuzu is going to be able to get past the animal summons, the chakra draining hold, the tensei hacks, the soul stealing, or the team work revival of the pains. Naruto had summons to handle the summons, nature chakra to deal with the draining hold, was told to take out the path that summons the king of hell, and still got beat once the debuff on the tensei hacks ran out. He escaped because of the ninetails transformation. Kakuzu has none of those, save maybe the summons if he wants to give up a heart to have another minion on the field.
Bro, rewatching this, it's so stupid. Noodles blamed having to work when they were gonna get into Pain's argument, and never let Swag talk about Pain unless it was reference to matching or being on par with Kakazu. I just want to see a pt 2 which probably won't happen just cause Noodles doesn't want to get shut down. Swag was staying respectful and not cutting him off every second, unlike Noodles which I still think is highly unfair cause he never got to present his argument.
like it or not, swag committed MULTIPLE fallacies that noodles didn't call out (which he usually does), and swag not scaling pain's durability is his fault for letting noodles avoid that
@@aplahet3867 Like it or not, Noodles contradicted himself multiple times and noodle's avoiding the durability points of Pain by telling Swag his turn would come later was super slimy.
@@DHAYProductions it was entirely swag's fault for letting it go by. Instead of moving on, he should have forced noodles to listen.
i love swag (more than noodles) but he got HARD baited into losing
@@aplahet3867 Maybe. Noodles seems like someone who wouldn't listen no matter how much you talked, though. My man was saying some very disingenuous stuff to try and win the debate, like the stuff about Asuma and Shikamaru.
I would have given up like Swag, because it's just not worth it. And as far as I'm aware, they never went back for part 2.
@@DHAYProductions dude welcome to debates. 90% of ppl will do whatever it takes to win
Noodles seemed kinda hypocritical when making arguments. Dismissing swags argument then used an identical one himself 10 minutes later. Not to mention hes just flat out wrong with fatigued naruto
Yea literally, noodles tells swag show me the direct statement , then he says something like I was their when he was drawing the panel I know what he was think while writing the story
@@tempalar2508 yeah saying naruto wasnt fatigued was so fucking stupid as he passed out while training multiple times and was low energy after killing kakuzu
Someone should've told my boy noodles that Naruto can get hella exhausted just from some dang paper work🤣🤣 and training for something as brain busting as what he just did for 3 days straight...uhh yeah
"Normal humans can train really hard for multiple days and then be fine on the next."
Uh..... this makes me skeptical if Noodles has ever seriously exercised in his life.
The highest tier of professional athletes take recovery days before their big game to recover from training intensely all those days before.
@Jerryco dondon ISIP Not quite. Bodybuilders and athletes that want large muscles intentionally create fiber tears so that muscles grow larger.
Fighters generally want better technique, endurance, and cardio. Most endurance athletes will be thinner and leaner. Their muscles endure lactic acid fermentation to provide energy during long sessions. When they appear muscular, it is due to having a lower bodyfat percentage, opposed to large muscles
To put that in practice, you can look at runners. A sprinter will get large, thick, powerful legs to generate momentum as fast as possible.
A marathon runner will have skinny bird legs, which weigh less and burn less energy to endure the race.
Noodles tries to apply one to the other, because that fits his narrative.
@@noahblevins9569 you forgot the "without rest" part so training 3 days wihtout rest and on the 4th day you are fine, and if you are training hard then this is impossible no matter what you trained. you can run, swim, weightlift or something else dosent matter if you tryed realy hard for 3 days without sleeping you wouldnt be fine on the 4th day. what noodles said is ridicules.
@@freakdavid4085 exactly, I was losing brain cells while listening to that crap
Noodles was such a slime ball. He chooses to have a debate on a day he had to work, runs the clock out by talking random shit and does not let Swag make his points, claiming victory when he has to leave.
Then lost anyway 😂
"Not necessarily" is the best defence ever
If using large amounts of chakra didn't have adverse effects Kakashi wouldn't have been hospitalized for using his mangekyo...
There is also a statement about this in part 1 using large amounts of chakra actually hirts your own body physically
@@sixfromtokyo yeah i mean theres a reason the multi shadow clone jutsu was forbidden. im pretty sure it was clearly established that regular people cant use it because it causes you to divide your chakra by however many clones you create. So if you create 1 you’re left with 1/2 of your chakra supply. If you make 20 you’re left with 1/20th of your original chakra supply. the regular shadow clone jutsu is a rank for a reason (since not many people are willing to get rid of half of their chakra on the spot just for the chance to defeat an enemy). im guessing it would be like losing a bunch of your blood on the spot you know? That would either definitely kill you or make you so weak that you wouldnt be able to move - let alone fight.
@@sixfromtokyo @Six your a rat dude. You help someone mid debate or at least try to but then your to stupid cover your tracks and just expose yourself lol
@@damnstraight4192 yea you're the KING of being "late to the party"
@@sixfromtokyo eh fair enough. Although doesnt change what I said though
Imagine watching a 2 hour video just to hear we will finish it in 2 weeks.
Imagine watching a 2 hr video on a topic we already know the outcome to bo matter what lol. Pain bodies any single akatsuki easily except itachi.
@@king.indigo3692 You aren’t counting Obito, correct?
@@christianhelling1121 no obito lol he bodies pain
@@king.indigo3692 itachi can’t touch pain either
@@WR0T i already pointed that out . Pain beats itachi but not as easily
So he essentially said “there’s no evidence that training vigorously for 3 days and 3 nights means he’s tired”
I haven't listened to the whole video yet but I think narratively it makes little sense for Kakuzu to be able to beat Pain. Like it was established that the Akatsuki fought and killed each other all the time, if Kakuzu thought Pain was weaker than him he would just kill him and usurp him as the leader.
you just established that kakazu cant beat pain, otherwise he would usurp him by killing him
@@okbutwhy3555 Exactly?
You contradicted yourself there…you said it would make narrative sense to for kakazu to beat pain. But then said that kakazu can’t beat pain because if he could’ve he would have taken the leader position
@@gabrielmellino6219 he said "little sense"
I’m convinced. Swagkage is a lawyer
💀
Every time Swag says “WHY” I laugh a little harder each time
Same him and Seth the killing ne with that lol
@@tythegreatttg It’s a really smart debate tactic, as someone explains more you can find more loopholes in their argument
@@chaseGamez yea but here it worked against him because swag dropped more than half the points he made, and just kept shotgunning
@@trnrred489 uhhh okay
Some times Swag kills me when he played the rasenshuriken sound effect out loud i could contain myself
I've heard the infamy of this debate. From Swag winning without having to talk about Pain, to apparent cheating and nepotism, to the probably the most famous part surrounding the whole ordeal; Noodles going SSJ3 against Seth and banning him from his server.
But NEVER did I ever sit down to actually listen to it before today. I knew what to expect from Noodles, he's real aggro with his points and doesn't take anyone's evidence or interpretations seriously no matter how reasonable, but Swag is sort of wishy washy with his attitude in debates. Some debate vids he seems eager, others he seems like he's trying to get everything out at once, and others he's really docile. But this one right here? PEAK Swag argumentation. Like WHOA, this guy had hands fr.
Idk about all this Six giving him arguments business, but Swag WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT fought back well and won this debate. He almost always had something to say in an attempt to counter whatever point was brought up; enough to where it was reasonable and not intrusive. He made some reasonable assertions and made some pretty GOAT'd takes (like Naruto being somewhat nerfed against Kakazu because of his hyper intense training that he barely rested during) just dropped banger refutes left and right. W Swag growth. Love to see it.
True but he he did contradict himself at times but still good job
I'm not the biggest fan of Swagkage; nothing personal just not the kind of content I totally dig, but I can definitely appreciate how collected and well thought out his responses as questions are.
Who's your favorite? Seth is my favorite but I mostly watch Swag because he does more Naruto than Seth
@@KingpenGames i like seth because he's funny; but also I'm waiting for the Dark Seth Arc to take over and then it's just nothing but manic hot takes 😂😂
@@buttpiratesbuttpirate5913Lol
@mrgotham3685 yeah holy shit i didn't realize how on the money i may have called that 😅🤌
@@buttpiratesbuttpirate5913u got ur wish
Ok noodles fucked up around the whole Naruto not being fatigued when training. Thats ridiculous.
But then swag said Naruto has crazy stamina which screwed swag over as well.
That section was bad for both
Naruto displayed crazy stamina in the last day in the Forest of Death but couldn't produce anymore clones; yet still fought? Having high stamina doesn't mean you can't be fatigued.
I would also like to point out that no human can effectively train for 72 hours straight and not be fatigued... In fact, they couldn't do that at all.
There's also significantly more to fatigue that micro tearing of the muscle fibers, haha.
Think about the Uzumaki chakra reserve, and the fact that as soon as Naruto runs out of steam, hes got Kurama to back him up with his chakra.
Bro who tf does this guy think he is??? Telling swag “don’t do that again” after swag brings up a valid point 😭😭😭
50:30 No, Swags has more of a probability because he literally trained for 3 days straight. Lack of sleep and heavy exertion are multiple reasons a body can be fatigued, so it's safe to say even with his regeneration repairing his muscle fibers, it still doesn't make up for the fact that he isn't fully rested. So he can feel fine but his body can literally still be fatigued. So his is more likely that Kakazu was implying that he looks a bit tired over looking messy. The variables and context are there, he just doesn't want to acknowledge them.
@Isidoro T bruh
adn that 3 day doesnt include all the fatigue naruto gets from the hundrens of shadow clones he summons
Kakuzu’s tentacle speed is not necessarily equal to his movement speed and even if he did NOT hear the rasenshuriken (highly improbable) he would have noticed the massive amount of chakra.
I love how every time Swag made a point using very sound logic (naruto being exhausted from the stated most intense training he’d ever been through for example) it was thrown out by noodles because there is no direct statement word for word saying. Bro you have any idea how boring anime would be if they had to articulate every single thing like that? Also noodles knew exactly what he was doing by running the clock and bouncing. Swag won by a mile
I think he was running the clock too. Slimey move
Swag actually did that first when he refused to accept that Choji got stronger during the war arc compared to when he went against kakuzu. And he implied that butterfly form Choji in war arc is comparable and not amped
Richara Gonzales he did it first ok but noodles does it way more
Noodles:weeeell not necessarily🥱
6 tails>Pain>sage naruto>kakuzu=kakashi>Shikamaru. Shikamaru was panicked after seeing kakuzu speed
Noodles goes from "We go for the most likely interpretation" to "Naruto is not stated to be tired so he is not tired from training." Flip flopping like a fish out here. 🤡
Someone should've told my boy noodles that Naruto can get hella exhausted just from some dang paper work🤣🤣 and training for something as brain busting as what he just did for 3 days straight...uhh yeah
EXACTLY, he only applies shit to when it benefits him and it was so blatantly obvious. He acted like a total child who couldn’t get his way
@@mori4532 factual
@@mori4532 "if someone nukes a building across the street you cant hear it??"
"nOT nECeSsARiLy!"
37:50 literally pissed me off, like to an unreal extent. The way he says don't do that again just makes me to my core angry.
This kills me because this is how frustrating I find most of my friends in debates.Its honestly heart warming because I can see these stressful life shorting debates in our future
"Kakazu couldn't hear rasenshiruken"
Meanwhile all other characters: "What is that loud high pitched sound??"
Swag won the debate without even delivering a point lol. Every time Swag backed Noodles into a corner, Noodles just said “let’s move on.” Swag should’ve just had them judge on the speed section and not subjected himself to another one of these.
37:46 this was actually hilarious lmao like swag made an entirely valid point and dude replied with “dont do that again”. no wonder the guy couldnt be bothered to debate towards the end
Noodles - “that’s irelevant, don’t bring that up again”
Swagkage- “sure”
No swagkage agreed his own argument was irelevant and conceded it.
Noodles won that point, if it was “valid” swagkage wouldn’t have INSTANTLY conceded it.
Do you realize what you’re saying? Lmao
@@trnrred489 yeah either that or he just didnt wanna childishly argue over noodles’ word choice. thats like if a teacher tells you that they dont wanna hear what you have to say rudely over zoom. The mature thing to do would be to just leave it and besides even if it wasnt valid (which it entirely was; the point in time which the point was made doesnt affect its validity as a point), why didnt noodles do something other than resort to belittling him and telling him not to do that again?
@@trnrred489 That doesn't necessarily mean Swag agreed lol. He was more than likely didn't wanna argue over something so stupid. He said "sure" he didn't say "yeah you're right it was irrelevant"
@@trulytobi6464 or the more likely possibility,
Noodles literally said “that’s irelevant” and swagkage said sure.
Even if what you’re saying is true he dropped the argument, so it’s a concession.
@@SupremeST25 are you serious right now?
“Why didn’t noodles do something other than resort to belittling him and telling him not to do it again”
Noodles: “that’s irrelevant, don’t do that again”
Swag : “sure”
Swag agreed it was irrelevant. And agreed not to do it again because it was irrelevant
Not whatever bullshit you want to make up about “why didn’t noodles do something... “ blah blah, literally listen to the time stamp in the OP’s comment
Like, are you seriously going out of your way to mis characterize what happened when he literally said “that’s irrelevant, don’t do that again”
That ISINT belittling him, that’s arguing that it’s Irelevant, which it WAS.
If swag thought that wasn’t the case he wouldn’t have said agreed lmao.
The mental gymnastics you’re going through here are hilarious
If swag thought it was relevant, he WOULDVE kept trying to argue it, instead of instantly conceding.
That was irrelevant, and swag conceded that point.
Funny how you go through al those mental gymnastics and leave out that swag was trying to shotgun noodles here, noodles shut it down, said swag’s argument was irrelevant, and literally swagkage agreed.
There’s is ACCTUAL context to what happened, and it’s time stamped for you, so why are trying to create some weird interpretation and misconstrue blatant facts??
Talking about word choice, no, this was very specific
Also Naruto was exhausted after training to run up trees in the land of waves, so it’s more likely than not that training to learn a Jutsu a genius hokage like Minato couldn’t even manage to master is gonna be extremely exhausting.
I know this is late, but I’m really glad the judges stuck up for swag a little bit in the end. Not only did 90% of noodles arguments not make sense, they weren’t even fair. Swag never got to say anything. It was just swag basically on the defense the entire time, and he didn’t even get a chance to defend, because anytime noodles felt pressured, he would either 1. Straight up tell swag to not mention other points, or 2. Say that none of swag’s counter claims mattered.
How do you debate somebody like noodles, who clearly is a dishonest person, who only did this to get his proposition in, and dip? I don’t think swag should do another debate. Not unless he gets to be on the offensive the entire time in the next one. Otherwise, it would just be a waste of time. And judging off of noodle’s character based on this video, I would say it’s a waste of time.
1:15:55 Swag you ain't have to do him like that with the rasenshuriken sound effect lmao💀💀💀
That was too funny🤣
Bruh I lost my shit
Slayed
😂
Even though he agreed at the beginning of the debate it was only Manga and official data books to use and yet he still went against that to use audio from the anime 🤷🏻
"If you're fighting someone and a nuclear bomb goes off, you're not gonna hear it?"
"Not necessarily"
"WAIT WHAT??" LMAOOO
The highlight of this mess.
Lmao I read this as I watched it
No cause you dead
Noodles is dumb
@@ItsTokyolol that's an understatement. What drugs you on to think kakuzu stands a chance against pain that outnumbers him by 10. Or asuma can beat sage Naruto, to hell with that
Noodles at the end: If I can prove Kakuzu speedblitzes Pain then I win
Noodles at the middle: Shikamaru speedblitzes Pain but can't do shit to him
The amount of times noodles says “Not Necessarily”
👇🏽
Naruto took out 2 hearts with an incomplete rasenshuriken plus crippling bonus.
Imagine a stronger Naruto with perfect SM plus a complete rasenshuriken but Pain still beat him.
Also, the whole bijuu argument is stupid.
By that logic, Shukaku, a full bijuu, is stronger than 8 tailed v2 or KCM1 Naruto.
Exactly
@@jbacxtrme5649 exactly
@@jbacxtrme5649 The man was just trying pull arguments from out of he ass lol.
@@jbacxtrme5649 He also try to claim that naruto is way to unpredictable so only naruto alone could trick him using distractions. That argument is so laughable its ridiculous
When he said, how does Sage Naruto scale above Asuma I laughed 😂😂😂
Sage naruto>Kakashi>Hidan>asuma
I wish i could believe that he was saying that unironically but he genuinely believes it smh. Someone who lacks the reaction time and strength (either raw or in numbers) to keep up with a senjutsu user and someone who does not have as much chakra as naruto uzumaki will not be able to kill him in a fight, let alone if naruto uses summons, let alone if he uses the kyubi chakra like the nine tails cloak is basically a win condition for naruto the thing is situationally naruto cant choose when to activate it (it only was activated when he fought pain because he saw something which provoked him emotionally that induced it which was hinata getting roflstomped) so unless asuma (the guy who naruto cares about the most aside from team 7 and like tsunade and stuff) is able to piss him off to that degree, he wont enter kcm but it’s not like he even has to really.
Sage naruto is just...too strong for someone who is (mid to high) jonin level who also lost to the weakest member of the akatsuki meanwhile naruto in *******base******* was able to kill kakazu himself with some moderate prior assistance. sage naruto scales to pain pretty evenly so how could pain who can go up evenly against sage naruto possibly lose to a kakazu who definitely loses to sage naruto...
^^written in case anyone actually thinks kakazu would win against pain. i didnt even mention that for kakazu to win chibaku tensei has to be restricted as well as arguably the large scale version of shinra tensei (the one that decimated the hidden leaf) because kakazu would not be able to tank or evade that and even if he could theres no way he could kill the remaining paths without dying.
@@tano3166 that is not true at all
@@Gnostic.666 yeah
Sage naruto>>kakashi>>>asuma
Bro that noodles guy was MAD RUDE the whole time😭😭
I can't believe swag actually entertained this idea seriously...
This guy is clearly trolling.
The "don't do that again" were cracking me up.
When swag kept saying "WHY" be killing lol
Timestamp please
@@wlljmart30 37:46 “dont do that again”
Yea same, that guy is really frustrating and aggressiv
@@SupremeST25 omg lol
I simply cannot believe noodles denies Naruto was fatigued when he arrived to fight Kakuzu
Someone should've told my boy noodles that Naruto can get hella exhausted just from some dang paper work🤣🤣 and training for something as brain busting as what he just did for 3 days straight...uhh yeah
Naruto literally falls over from exhaustion at the end of Pain's Assault and Kakashi catches him. I also don't think Kakuzu would point out that Naruto was disheveled if he wasn't at least somewhat fatigued during the fight, it doesn't make sense narratively. Acting like Naruto just can't be fatigued after 3 days of nothing but the most intense training he's ever been through because he has good regeneration doesn't really make sense to me.
Being a a bit of contrarian, I went into this with the intention of trying to find any part where Noodles was actually right and Swag was wrong.
I only found one: Swag seems to think the Shadow Possession Jutsu has some sort of innate "time limit," but nah. Shikamaru cancels the jutsu when he can no longer exert enough chakra to hold his opponent. The opponent can resist to tire Shikamaru out faster (Tayuya). Even if you get so worn out you have to withdraw your jutsu, you can still have momentary bursts of exertion a few minutes later. Like holding a plank for a long ass time and then collapsing. After a moment, you may be able to hold a short plank again for a few seconds. It's not like you're completely "depleted" and totally useless for the rest of the day.
also they seemed to have ruled out that in the presence of natural shadows, cast from a tree for example, shikamaru can manipulate his jutsu at over half the Chakra cost. depending on the abundance of shadows cast... and for the record, shikamaru is nowhere near close Kakashi's speed.. by any scope other than intelligence.
@@tythomas8317 That's why the whole powerscaling community can get a bit... messy. I prefer to look at artist intention when I read a manga or watch an anime, not analyze every little thing scientifically. It's clear Kishimoto never intended for Shikamaru to be as fast as Kakashi. But if you use the same kind of logic present in a lot of powerscaling debates, I'm sure you could find some sort of "evidence" for it.
They also make the mistake of assuming that everyone is also at peak performance all the time, and can't make slip-ups or momentary lapses in judgement. For example, there's no way Kakuzu should have fallen for Naruto's lame diversion and get hit by the Rasenshuriken. But he did anyway. Why? Because the plot demanded it. Kakuzu already had his time in the spotlight taking on all these good guys at once and the audience wouldn't want to see more of him. So he was sacrificed as a way to show Naruto's progression and signpost a significant point in the plot.
Short answer, a lot of these "feats and calcs" need to be taken in narrative context.
I think swag thought that because of Hidan's statement. "It lasts about 5 minutes right" when fighting Shikamaru
This guy rly said that pain is not above asuma.....its not even worth talking to him after that
LMAOOO
Wait who said that? 🤣
Can you prove he is tho?
💀💀💀💀
@@Douglarce02 I know it's a joke, but after listening to noodles in this I wanna fight you 🤣🤣 I'm so agitated by that sentence lmfao
@@stevenhall3829 HAHAHA BRUH 💀 I KNOOOOW