Agreed. It's not just skiing. They are locusts that destroy everything they touch by extracting wealth from bottom and middle of the pyramid and shifting it to the top.
Watched a NBC video on how a guy from Minnesota spent 20k to ski at park city last week. For 20k he could have taken his family of 4 to Europe and skied for a week and a half all day long 😂.
Yes. Absolutely ruined the US skiing experience. I'm an American living in Europe. Just paid 76 euros per day in peak season to ski some of Austria's top resorts (Saalbach-Hinterglemm, Kitzbuhel, Flachauwinkl); heated chairlifts, gorgeous and independently managed lodges everywhere, all at still manageable (though more expensive than previous years) prices.
That’s what I keep seeing on Twitter - “it’s more affordable to fly to Europe and ski there for a week than do the same in Colorado.” I’m happy you’re able to enjoy it!
@@BridgerPOWDERhound if you get an Epic pass, which is about $1000, and you ski 25 times a season, each time is about $40. And you can ski any of the Epic resorts. Not sure why people only compare the one-day pass price.
Whistler BC is a Vail property and a highly rated North American destination, but I'll never go back. Last season, I went up for a couple days mid-week and faced 90+ minutes waiting in line in the morning. Between ridiculous prices, heavy traffic and long wait times, this year I'll be going to the BC Interior to some smaller, privately run hills. Skiing is expensive enough without being gouged by greedy corporate interests who are more interested in profit margins than satisfied customers.
@@Galbra1th It doesn't get as much attention as US destinations, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of congestion problems in Whistler Village that has been exacerbated by American Epic Pass holders coming north. This clip shows the line running right through the main village. You can't even see the actual lifts: ruclips.net/user/shortsZVqu-KqEtWo
Yup. I live in WA state, have been to Whistler once, don't plan on going back anytime soon. On top of the Vail Corp's model of monetizing everything, weather at Whistler can be...iffy. It's in the Coast Range of BC, and it's not unusual for it to be raining at base, thick mid-mountain fog, and blowing sideways snow at the summit. Sure they get big snow dumps, but it's often heavy, wet stuff compared with inland BC or the Rockies. There are other smaller resorts in the BC interior, the Banff area, and elsewhere that I'd rather go to. And I'd rather support smaller operations that try to keep the "family" in family skiing. They often have great terrain, a better vibe, and lower costs.
Spot on. I say skiing was never meant to be corporatized and Disneyfied like Vail did. The people that got screwed by Vail the most are the hardworking folks that make a town a good place to live are the generational people that run all the mom and pop businesses, emergency services, teachers, town workers, trash collectors, mailmen, labor etc. Vail Corp has sucked the life out of the towns they've taken over.
Why do you think they are"importing" all this cheap labor. They push out locals by driving up prices of real estate and everything else, then bring in cheap labor ie. Illegals to fill the positions. And stick them in your house you had to sell because you can't afford to live their anymore.
It’s a tough situation. The town and its people is obviously dependent on the mountain and the tourists it brings in, but it’s these tourists that are making their town totally unaffordable. It’s a shame as I agree; Vail / Beaver Creek / Eagle is a very special place!
What people don’t realize is that if everyone didn’t buy a pass that year. Their stocks would plummet and they would be forced to lower prices. But people like to bitch and complain but not actually take and actions, then cough up the hundreds of dollars for a pass. You all are the problem you have let it get this bad.
I have lived in the Salt Lake valley my entire life. I can no longer afford to ski in my own beautiful mountains. It is becoming a sport for the rich. Sad.
It’s the result of overpopulation. The mountain can only handle so many people. Obviously it isn’t expensive enough, they need to triple the price to get the crowds more reasonable. The current price is just making the experience bad for everyone, too many people.
Lifelong Utahn and Park City local here. Vail has ruined this town. There is not one local I know that holds a favorable view of Vail. Every single person wants them to sell the resort and leave, never to return. Park City and The Canyons were much better managed before Vail took over. The experience and vibe of Park City Mountain Resort went from fun and friendly to stiff and corporate. The circumstances of how Vail took control of Park City Mountain Resort is would make for a great dedicated episode.
I appreciate the perspective from a Park City local! I can definitely look into the transaction that led the resort down this path. Is there any subject you think is necessary for me to include to capture the full story (I.e. not just what story is told my the companies)?
@@Galbra1thThere should be plenty of public info available. It was quite a soap opera. It would make an entertaining video. (18 year Park City resident here)
When PCMR and the Canyon's merged under Vail resorts ownership it was the worst thing to happen to both properties. They ruined the Whistler experience years earlier and repeated the mistakes there at Park City.
I go to park city every weekend. Just snowboarded Beaver Creek, Vail, Copper Mountain (I have an ikon pass too) and Breckenridge for vacation over the holidays. I love my Epic Pass and take advantage of it every year. Park City side is crowded, but people that know, know how to get around the crowds, where to park., time of day to go. You want to talk about disasters, Brighton on the weekend, Cottonwood Canyon period on any weekend. Brighton is privately owned, but is 10x ques worst than PC In my opinion. I will only go to Brighton during the week, if I take some time off of work.
Vail's stock may be down recently to $180 but keep in mind it was trading around $11 back in 2003. What they have done over the past couple of decades, and the rest of the ski industry has largely followed their lead, is to corporatize and destroy the tradition of family skiing. Skiing was once a great family sport that has now become unaffordable for most families today. They also continue to monopolize the industry thereby autocratically controlling prices and instead of outsourcing labor abroad like PE companies do, they bring in cheap labor from abroad instead. The best thing that could happen to the US ski industry would be for the major ski resort companies like Vail to divest all of their holdings and let the industry manage itself as a free market again.
It’s a good take. I’m not sure why / how Vail would ever divest their assets though. I think there needs to be more affordable supply of ski runs. Potentially local governments building out their own “public parks”
@@Galbra1th PE companies don't sit on dead money. If they cannot grow their fund's profits to target, they shed off the underperforming assets. In this case, stagnant growth could force them to sell off resorts if their returns are unattractive. Vail's stock has had a meteoric rise over the past few decades...PE companies know to sell high.
Higher prices incentivize people to buy ski passes. A family can buy a 4 day ski pass for a Vail resort, or a local pass to a resort near their house. And it's still priced well. About $100 per day for the 4-7 days pass. Not bad for a huge resort with some of the best snow in the world. What you're saying just isn't true. Big resorts have better runs and therefore should charge more. You'll never see a $50 day pass for Vail or Park City. But a small ski resort with shorter runs will be priced like that to attract the crowds. That's capitalism at its finest bud. Also, high prices are a natural filter to the amount of people that will be on the mountain. All those resorts are already over crowded on the weekends, and some during the week even with the high prices that are being charged now. Imagine what it will look like, and how much time you'll have to stand in line if it was more affordable?
Thank you for this! I live in Utah now and started skiing in 1967, so I have a lot of years to compare. The cost of skiing is absolutely ridiculous. I don't know how the skiers push back outside of simply refusing to go skiing to send the message. These corporations are pushing it to the extreme and I hope there is huge backlash for them. If I was one of those Park City skiers over the holidays I would be livid. They should all be given refunds. getting 3 runs down the hill for $350 is actual robbery. It's sad to see the sport I love taken hostage. Something must be done.
I didn't ski last year and likely won't this year due to greed, excessive costs and poor skiier experience. I've replaced that time joining a Sim Golf league where I have fun and laughs with my buds over a few drinks and don't have to worry about being cold. LOL!
I feel like the billionaires and tech bros are the ones who are finding better ways to operate than the status quo. I don’t think you can say Elon uses the same practices as PE to run his businesses, so I don’t see the connection..
@ what are a few specific improvements you see ? I am speaking more from a quality of life angle from 80s until now in the US. What I see is way more struggle to get by and much wider income inequality, where tech tends to not provide real value. Electric cars can be good from environment view of course .. economic angle is more controversial. Blockchain , meme coins and most social media is just making society overall worse backed by mental health studies
Agree with you. I live a good chunk of the time in Truckee, Ca & will never give the big resorts my money anymore - the vibe at Northstar & Palisades (used to be Squaw Valley & Alpine Meadows) are overcrowded and ridiculously snobby, so I ski where I grew up at Sugar Bowl. They treat passholders like gold & take pride in not being like the big resorts - however without a pass I could probably only afford to ski 2-3 days a year, even at Sugar Bowl. By your name I'm guessing you might be into guitar, like i am, and I would never buy a new Gibson (anything after 2019) because they're now owned by the PE group KKR, when I can get a Heritage guitar made in the original Kalamazoo factory that has better QC for less money.
@@craighamley3669 that’s good you’re smart about who is just for profit vs really doing right for their customers. I didn’t know that about Gibson. I had to buy a practice amp a few years ago and bought older model since was better made. I am a surfer primarily now and it’s overall good as aren’t charged lift ticket prices ha. Yeah I taught guitar a long time and have videos teaching but lately I’ve been more into non guitar music and learning Ableton
@@GuitarWithBrett For all the good that came from the internet becoming ubiquitous, there was certainly quite a bit of bad. Social media in particular has poisoned society.
I skied park city last year (live in London and have skied predominantly in Europe) - the cost was insane! Passes, food, accommodation, it was wild. Made me feel for US based skiers, especially as infrastructure is way worse than in Europe. Just hoping Europe never gets commercialised in the same way…
Haha, I actually went for the cat skiing, only skied a day at each end in PC/Deer Valley - so had to get two separate day passes which was eye-watering! Park city is relatively easy from the UK and there aren’t really any cat skiing operations in Europe, so me and mate decided to give it a try (and we love powder skiing obvs). Don’t get me wrong, was a fantastic experience but the cost means there’s no way I would trek to the US for resort skiing. Europe wise I’ve skied maybe 20 resorts across France/Swiss/Austria/Italy - Val D’Isere is a big fave, Ischgl is awesome (probs my fave for apres in the alps), Verbier good but expensive. Essentially there are a lot of great resorts, just the snow cover in recent years has been pretty unreliable. The main thing that irritated me about PC was it was so expensive and yet the infrastructure was rubbish and the food up the mountain was shite. Everyone was super friendly though, I think the British accent helped! 😂
they destroyed affordability, ticket price, parking price, lodging price, food price. Buy up competitors= ski shops, liquor stores, retail stores, transportation companies ect. that is what Vail has destroyed. I saw it first hand living in a resort town.
The development of new products and businesses.... Most of the things you do or touch... Do you think the government could manage a economy better? Yes it has its issues, but letting these business fail and die will evolve the economy. The problem is when big gov bails them out in the name of saving jobs...
Aaand that’s why I don’t get ikon or epic but support Sierra at Tahoe after the fires. If the join Alterra full time I will get Dodge Ridge or Bear Mountain. Support your local hill or get into backcountry with proper education. Vuck Fail
I live in Salt Lake City and have many world class resorts between 30-60 minutes from my home. I am upper middle class and have decided skiing is no longer smart financially…plus fighting for parking, long lift lines and crowded slopes. Fortunately Utah has many incredible state and national parks, great hiking and lakes. My wife and I can enjoy awesome recreation without the high costs for us to spend just one day standing in lines for few ski runs on the mountain.
I’m happy to hear you’re still able to enjoy the great outdoors! It really is a shame that even financially responsible people still cannot justify the expenditure.
Back in the early 60s Park City had some 1200 residents and falling some calling it a ghost town in the making. However the people of park city took a government grant for helping economically dire towns. They turned that money into a ski area called treasure mountain resort and they did not expect profits from the resort as it was supposed to exist as a means of getting tourists and skiiers into the towns restaurants,hotels and other businesses. Its said they were surprised the mountain made a small profit it's first year. Given that what we have today is a corporation that has wrecked skiing not only for locals but now everyone and their greed and shakedown of ski resorts originally intended in many cases to exist only to generate economic community growth and value has been hijacked and the community and the public have to suffer the consequences of a tiny fraction of people that will butcher and industry or company to get rich. Vail Resorts leaders and CEOs care nothing about skiing or the quality of the skiing since barely any of them even ski,much less giving a S%$t about the local communities or interests. Its a shame that we used to have a working model but greedy rich misers eventually had to step in and basically rob the public of a good thing so they might get that 3rd 25 million dollar yacht.
It’s interesting to hear what Park City was like back in the 60s. I think a good step forward could be a similar process with local governments developing other public lands to turn them into public ski areas.
That is not true. If you buy a season pass thru vail or an icon pass it's not that much to actually ski. Lodging can be expensive and so can food if you are dumb enough to eat on the mtn. A flight to Europe for 1 seat is over 1k!!!!
YES !!! I can say this because I ski at a small family run ski area and have also skied most of the "big" resorts. Yes the Vail resorts have better lifts and longer runs, however, at our small ski area, we all know each other, very friendly, lots of charm, no crowds, lots of great powder and fantastic tree skiing. I will not tell anyone where it is.
SO TRUE!! I've enjoyed checking out places like Vail and some other "big name" resorts, but my heart is with a ski area not too far from my home. Still privately owned, fun terrain, great family vibe. And I too will not divulge its name.
lol! So true. I buy a season pass and ski 100 days a year so $1200 for the icon is a great deal. But for 5 days? Only a rich fool--or a fool-- would consider it.
Both the Epic and Ikon pass offerings are a double-edged sword. IF you ski enough days, and enjoy going to a few different ski areas per year, they're very cost-effective. And if you avoid the overpriced food and lodging provided by these places, even better. The reason Epic and Ikon passes exist is to lock in $$ for Vail Corp and Alterra, regardless of what the season is like. They provide the companies with a stable income stream that isn't as dependent on bad weather at some locations, etc. Frankly, you'd have to be crazy or crazy rich to plunk down the exorbitant $$ for a day pass at places like Park City, Vail, or Breck. Even a 5-day Epic Day pass would be far more cost-effective.
PE ruins everything it touches. Period. Note to Cameron: snow making is not a strain on water resources. The snow will melt in the spring and turn back into water making its way back to streams, lakes, underground aquifers, etc. The idea that snowmaking wastes water is a fallacy.
Snow making machines alter the ecosystem, altering the water table and the natural water cycle. They introduce fungicidal proteins that are used to seed the snow which effects the plant growth. Artificial snow melts slower than natural snow and more is lost to evaporation and sublimation. So there is a net loss of water by using snow machines - not to mention the energy costs.
Yes and no, you are correct that it is not a total waste of water. There is loss in ground percolation and evaporation and must be considered. Utah is super dry and evaporation does occur even below freezing temps - look for that mini ice cube in the back of your freezer. Its not full proof.
@barbaravanerp4598 Usually reclaimed water is cheap--WWTPs give it away in some cases. So even with additional MBR and ozone treatment that water is going to be less expensive than trucking or piping in new fresh water. Fresh water is always going to be "an issue", it's a matter of how much do other alternatives cost in comparison.
I take my 4-year old skiing at Solitude regularly, and was born in PC and grew up skiing DV every weekend. I just can't imagine the disappointment I'd feel if I showed up to go skiing with my kids and saw one of those lift lines. "Well guys, I don't know what to say, just stand here in the snow for 45 minutes."
I won't cross picket lines to ski at Park City this year and I've communicated with them and their investor relations my displeasure with their employee relations. I won't buy another Epic Pass unless they change their priorities. It would not hurt them in the least to be decent to their employees. We apparently cannot satisfy the obscene greed of the private equity companies, but also of the general investment community. This model is completely driving a wrecking ball through companies and consumers.
Vail lift tickets increased 300% in 4 years and yet they complain about a $2 raise stating ski patrol wages have gone up 50% in 4 years. So lift tickets went from about $100 in 2020 to about $300, an extra profit of $200; yet they complain about the extra $10 they have to pay to ski patrol. We need a nationwide Vail ski patrol boycott, demand changes. Bring back season passes to 1/3 of what they cost today, in-line with where they were 5 years ago, don't charge for everything on the mountain, cut prices by 50% everywhere for dining/drinks, and increase lift capacity with larger chairs. They can say no all they want, but losing billions in a season and force them to go bankrupt is not an option for them; so they have to say yes.
10 years ago, I could fly from St Louis, Mo, get a shuttle, rental, housing, lift, and ski passes for $800. Went grocery shopping , and went out to eat a few times. Total 1000.00 for the entire trip cost. for 4 days. I thought that was a luxury, but affordable.
@@Galbra1thIt might be better to inform your viewers of the actual market dynamics involved. A $200 price increase never means “an extra profit of $200.” And the price which results in max profit is almost never the highest price. Large price increases clearly hurt sales volume, so whenever they appear, you can be sure the operators regard it as a poison pill. But there are always fixed costs that simply must be paid. The resultant declines in sales only necessitate further price hikes, and further cuts in services and maintenance, making (for one example) lift lines lengthen. It’s a death spiral, and the biggest root cause is probably inflation. When currency is devalued and salaries do not increase, then essentially people are becoming poorer.
Imagine being an east coast skier and saving money for years planning a dream trip out west, spending the time to pick and plan it, paying $10,000+ between lift tickets, travel, lodging/food only for this to happen. I would be beyond livid
Imagine paying $10k just to ski at a Vail owned resort 😂 I'd be in Japan or Europe with that kind of money skiing for a full week and still come back spending less!
We go to locally owned smaller mountains in Tahoe. I refuse to pay and participate in these terrible passes. Especially for lower level green/blue skiing families, I’ll never use most of these black runs anyhow. I’ll take the old school lodges with chicken fingers or fly to Europe on occasion. Ugh! Private equity burning it all down.
I remember the days you could buy a next day lift ticket at your local supermarket. Or you could roll up to the resort and buy a same day ticket for around $50. Now days a same day lift ticket will cost $200 no matter where you go. Look to Europe and their lift tickets aren’t nearly as much. Two companies controlling almost all the resorts has destroyed the experience for common people here in America
Yeah as I said it’s become totally unaffordable for a middle class (and even upper class) family. Sure lift tickets are $200+ but that doesn’t even take into consideration the equipment rentals, food there, and lodging.. crazy!
That's a great reason to support smaller, independent ski areas. A lot of them still exist, and are far more reasonable for families. They may not have some of the terrain and name cachet that places like Vail, Park City, Telluride, and Whistler have, but they can provide a fun time, good learning areas for kids, and they still have "soul." And ski shops away from the resorts often have good season rental deals. As far as food and lodging: DON'T stay at the hotels owned by the big corporations, and brown bag it!!
Vail resorts did it to themselves gauging riders every day at every resort they run -own. It’s rediculous they have the money to pay ski patrol more corporate greed at work much larger ski areas and resorts in Europe make it happen for 40-70 euros a ticket and they are 10-40,000 skiable acres for many of them they do just fine
Unfortunately it’s all about the margins to them. That’s the issue being a public company, you are always expected to find ways to grow your revenue. The public markets don’t reward flat profitability each year - it requires you to eke out every cent you can.. Just a tough reality :/
@@Galbra1thand this is why the US economy is going down the drain. Every company has to maximize profits every quarter otherwise they're deemed a failure. You can't squeeze juice from a rock...
Lifelong Utahn, son of a ski patrolman, grew up near PC and even worked for the resort prior to Vail coming to town. I also work for a publicly traded company that is consolidating an industry so I’ve seen both sides. Vail has made the experience worse in the name of creating shareholder value.
The funny thing is I'm sure a huge percentage of people that had their vacation ruined by Vail will purchase their Epic Pass again next year. If you don't vote with your wallet corporations will continue to take advantage of you.
PC local here, couple things going on that need to be considered. First, the ENTIRE mountain is rarely open for Christmas week. Its just to early in the season and the snow totals do not allow for the upper mountain that does not have snowmaking to open tell mid Jan. Second, the ski patrol strike is a joke. They cite living wages as the reason but $21 vs $23 starting wages will NEVER change what is needed to live up here. You need to make 100K+ a year to afford a 1 bedroom condo at $650K. Get real, if I could make 100K a year being a ski bum then EVERYBODY would be doing it. I patrolled when I was 19, best job that I ever had and loved every day I got paid to strap on my skies and make runs. Avi control was the best, the only way you could get a 19 year old idiot out of bed at 5AM. my legs were spent by 10AM from skiing untracked in avi boundary control locations. I knew it was a pre-college, pre-occupation to get out of mom and dads house job. Third, those nasty lines are not new this year, of course everybody says its the worst ever, but I will never ski during holiday break as I have been stuck in lines for 55 min before. Fourth, $355 otd for passes is over the top. I bought snow machines/timbersleds and hit the non crowded mountains to get my powder fix. even at $15K for a set up vs ticket prices - its cheaper and I am alone!
lol definitely some valid points about ski patrol not being a career.. And I agree that it’s hard to see how a $2 increase is going to drastically change the quality of life and all of a sudden allow them to afford Park City..
Aren't there dormotories for seasonal employees at PC? I know Vail Resorts provides this for employees at Whistler - especially those there on work Visa's from Australia that I've met over the years. Granted, I realize many employeers are year-rounders, but some locals I would think take advantage of this.
The Unlimited season pass is the straw that broke the camels back. Rather than charging a reasonable daily rate they pushed the all included ticket. This means there is no way of regulating how many people show up to ski on a particular day. The system gets overloaded quickly with this unpredictability in skier load. The upfront money grab is backfiring in a big way. They are getting close to the tipping point where it is cheaper to fly to Europe and ski or just stay home.
I have no clue how as a business there is no way to regulate the daily flow. I saw someone earlier mention segmenting it into weekend and weekday passes to account for the weekend warriors.
@@Galbra1th If you had to purchase a ticket, or be issued one for each day as a season pass holder, the mountain could cut off the total number of skiers on the property at any given time. They know what is open and the working lift capacity. If you can move 5,000 people per hour on all of your operating lifts you should not have say 10,000 people on the property or you will have the chaos that is shown. It can be done if they really cared about their customer base.
@@Galbra1thCrystal mtn in WA had this problem on ikon. The solution was limited no of days per year on ikon (~7) unless you got the extra crystal pass. Now they try to limit it with a required parking pass at the resort.
I live just 2 miles from the mouth of the canyon from one of these major resorts. My days of skiing are over. They have oversold these epic and icon passes making it difficult to ski. Roads are heavily congested. The lines are incredibly long. The prices have just skyrocketed. Skiing is no longer a family sport. Sadly it is for the wealthy. I choose to put my money elsewhere.
Easy answer: Don't go to any resort which is on a mega pass. Except the Indy Pass. There are lots of magical mountains in charming towns waiting for you. Beaver Mountain Utah. Lost Trail Montana. Wolf Creek Pass Colorado. Ski Santa Fe New Mexico. These places all have charm, hospitality, reasonable prices, great snow, and hometown vibe. Don't even think about Park City, Vail, etc.
Good point! For people who aren’t local or big skiers many may not know these places exist because of what they see online being dominated by the big guys.
Thank you for this. You've got me thinking. I'm an Ikon pass holder and I ski out of my van. The big resorts and resort towns are very inhospitable to van campers. I've read that the smaller resorts are much more hospitable and have experienced it myself a bit.
Its sad to see how expensive skiing/snowboarding has become. Growing up here in Utah I had a lot of fun and have great memories at a lot of the resorts. Its crazy to think that 15-20 years ago a day pass was around 30-60. I remember when the olympics where here I had a season pass to park city resort for $99. I have been priced out of skiing and havent gone in over a decade. I wont be returning to the slopes unless it becomes more cost effective. im not holding my breath.
one thing you haven't mentioned was that Vail hires foreign workers, most of them from South America, where the labor contracts end in the last week of March. So, most of Vail resorts plan to close in the second week of April despite the snow conditions in many years were fine to ski. People feel like got cheated. Most of iKon-pass resorts don't do that, where they try to stay open as long as they can. Vail is a mismanaged, greedy company
@@Galbra1th yep, just go visit a Vail resort sometimes in March and first week of April, you would see numbers of employees dramatically reduced starting April 1st and some of the lifts and restaurants are starting to shut down. And the local employees would be struggling to keep the place running efficiently. I have seen that in the past five years. From Vail's annual report, Vail makes 17% operating profit and 9% net profit, those are ok numbers, not great numbers, Somehow, some of the costs and management team incentives were not explained in details in the annual report. So, I felt like the current management team just want to jack up the stock price and look for a way to sell of their options (they don't care if Vail can grow the sport or not)...
I just skied at Sun Valley, independently owned but on Ikon pass. 90% of staff at the resort: lifties, hotel staff, food service, etc. were from Peru, Uraguay, Argentina, etc. It is on their name tags.
I remember paying $189 for a full season student pass at Smugglers Notch in VT. No restrictions, no blackouts. We stayed on campus during winter break so we could ski everyday all day. Those were magical times in the late 1990’s.
When I worked for a major resort in California, many of the instructors and patrollers were Australians. The resort would fill the lift op and general hospitality positions with kids from Orange County but the more specific pro skiing positions need people who ski as a career. BUT the need is seasonal so they hire Australians during what is the off-season down under. By going back and forth the Australians could work on snow year-round. They also had some employees from so cal theme parks during what were the lighter months for theme parks and heavy for skiing, eg February through Easter. The resort had hundreds of hotel rooms right across the street from the main lodge that were only used for seasonal employees. Your job and the rooming were tied. If you quit or were fired you lost your room also. Rent came out of your check. One rowdy wing of the hotel was nothing but lift ops and food service workers. I haven't looked at any numbers recently but skiing visits were in decline from the 1980s onward. Skiing has always skewed toward the upper middle class and the wealthy. My sense is the contraction in business and the decreasing numbers for total ski days per season have led to the obvious split in business models: 1) small local resorts are going under or barely haning on and afraid to raise ticket prices, or 2) big brand resorts are going more exclusive and trying to get more revenue per visitor. eg due the same or higher dollars even as total customers decrease.
I left Vail in 1992. Locals were already being pushed down valley. Same thing happened in the roaring fork valley. Billionaires bought out millionaires and they bought out everything else, pushing "locals / workers" past Glenwood down to Rifle. The real estate industry caused this.
In 1984 major Tahoe and Mammoth ski resorts charged about 35 bucks for a one day lift ticket.If you adjust for inflation tickets should be 106 bucks in 2024.Resorts ownership ruined skiing due to greed.
I have been an epic pass holder for 14 years. Every year I pay more for the privilege of ever increasing season passes, traffic to the vail properties in CO, ungodly lift lines and in short an ever decreasing customer experience.
@ i buy the pass because I love to ski and thus far been willing to put up with the negatives that come with the sport. I don’t put the blame solely on the resort operators as everything seems to be more congested and expensive these days. I also don’t pretend to have any answers to the problems that increased interest in the sport have caused. It is was it is! So I will deal with it until I determine the costs outweigh my enjoyment. Just getting closer to that point than I ever have been.
Back in 1990 my last year in the Canadian Rockies, I skied 20 out of 30 days in November that year, never once did I pay more than $60 CAD for a day pass at Sunshine & Lake Louise, it's truly insane what it costs today
If you want to eliminate the lines, turn them into private clubs like golf courses. $100K up front to join and $20K a year for a family membership. Drinks and food not included.
Private Equity and Big Corp consolidation is ruining EVERYTHING. I work in the Coffee Industry and Private Equity is on a buying rampage throughout the space and causing all kinds of price increases and service decreases, and in general sucking the cash out of the local economies, and making liquidity that much harder for the local business that are the final mile for the entire value chain. It's nuts. And the PE owners DGAF.
The price of lift tickets in Canada and the US is absolutely outrageous. Profiteering and corporate greed is destroying local ski hills and people’s ability to access them, by jacking up lift tickets and catering to tourists only.
I have been skiing every year for. 60 years. When I was young I could ski 5 hours at night for 2.99 dollars (1970’s). In the last 20 years we have skied mainly in Utah-mainly deer valley. In recent years we have seen prices skyrocket and customer service decline. How young families can afford this is surprising because I have to think twice before booking. I may give up skiing prematurely just because it’s insane. It has become a sport for the wealthy and is cutting out the middle class family. Corporate greed.
Overcrowding, lack of qualified patrollers up till today, even just making up the canyons is a nightmare on weekends gotta go during the week and even that isn’t great with all the nepo babies and “work” from home crowd
The cost of lift tickets has got absolutely ridiculous! The hate that resorts/ski slopes have towards any ski alternatives like snowboards, skibikes, ski scooters and snogo/ski trike is annoying and ridiculous! I am a disabled veteran, my body dont allow me to ski/snowboard anymore I tried out and ended up buying 2 snogo ski trikes, I can ski all day with no pain no issues but found most resorts only want skis and reluctantly snowboards. I had to get my adaptive skiing card to be allowed at many but they still restrict me to only some of their trails/lifts even though i have to pay the same as everyone else and my wife cant ski or board but she crushes it on the snogo but then we are limited to only a few places alomg with the fact that it cost $500+ for me to take her and my 2 kids!
I’m sorry to hear that. My stepfather is disabled and it’s hard enough without ski resorts charging you extra… I’m glad you’re still able to find ways to enjoy the snow!
I lived in Vail 11 years, worked for them at Golden Peak 8 years. It's the best resort to ski. Period! Climate change has ruined the experience. Overpopulation is permanent. Good luck.....
I'm on ski patrol Mt. Baldy BC. No lift lines, great powder, reasonable prices. Whilst there isn't really Accommodation on the mountain, local towns are not too far away
I rocked an Ikon pass for years, but after the last 3, watching prices go through the roof, cutthroat tactics, and not seeing anything going back into the mountain, I just can't in good conscience give them any more of my money. I've taken to the backcountry and am much happier for it. I'd rather spend all day skinning up a mountain for one run than spending all day in a line to hop on a lift that may break down because it hasn't seen any maintenance in years. The saddest part is that this affects the potential next generation of ski/snowboarders the most. I mean seriously, learning to ski/board can be difficult and not all that much fun until you are at least decent at it. And at $300+ for a day pass, not including rentals, nobody is going to be having a good day.
I skied Vail through the seventies as my uncle was a sky patrol man and had a condo there. I partied in beaver creak long before they had slopes there. Day pass was expensive then, can't imagine how much a day pass is today? Many fond memories from Vail and heavenly at south lake taho. I had a blessed upbringing!
I’ve been skiing for about 40 years. While some things have definitely improved (lift capacity, for example), the experience is much worse, largely due to cost. As a young person in the 80’s and 90’s, my friends and I would take trips to Utah, we could afford a condo and we’d ski at a different resort every day. We did not have great fiscal means at the time but we could do it and we had a great time. Now, the cost to do this is absurd… and we have the means. We refuse to pay the lift ticket prices out of principle. It’s sad to me because I have so many great memories from years ago but the costs today make it impossible for young people now to have that experience. The current business strategy seems very short sighted.
It's not private equity. Park City has problems with winds sometimes. Gondolas and lifts get closed when they have high winds. Happens all the time. Whenever that happens, everyone gets concentrated on the lifts that are still open. Creating a bottleneck. If you got there and the weather or technical issues with a gondola or a lift happens, it's just bad luck. Shit happens. It happened to me too more than once in Park City. Also, the recent strike caused vail to bring ski patrol personnel that aren't familiar with the mountain and limited the open runs because of that. Your plane can have delays or crash, your car can have an accident, your stuff can get stolen etc. That doesn't mean it's private equity's fault. Park city is a great resort to ride at when everything is open, which is most of the time. Also, like you said, Vail has 42 other resorts you can ski in. And some of them are really close to Park City. So you can always change your plans and go somewhere else. The pass that we are so entitled to be able to buy saves us a lot of money if we're planning to ski/snowboard in more than 1 resort through the winter. Bad days on the mountain can happen for many different reasons. For example just earlier today I got off a mountain after only an hour or so, because it was too foggy to see where I was going, and the clouds that we went through also created sticky ice spots on the goggles and cameras. It wasn't fun and was very annoying. I couldn't see where to go and barely the snow on the ground which is dangerous.
The thing that ruins skiing is the crowds. Who's responsible for that, Vail or the masses of people who want their product? Who's responsible for home prices in Park City, Vail or the people who want to live there so badly they are willing to pay more than the next person to buy the house? Remember, You are not in a lift line; you are the lift line. Triple the price of passes, and we'll see who really wants to ski. I would work a second job to ski if I had to, and it offered a better experience. Bitching about crowds while you are in the crowd is the definition of entitlement.
I agree with this. The people who chose to pay the $350 for a lift ticket can’t complain about the price as they willfully paid it. What message does that send to Vail?
For a different reason I’m choosing not to buy an epic pass next year because of the business practices solely. I wanted a refund on my season pass and they wanted so much personal information like doctors notes, dates, really personal info to just get a refund bro. Screw that
We skied Whistler on the 28th of December last year. I resolved to never go back. The volume of people in line and on the runs, the eye-watering costs and the global elite vibe aren't for me or my extended family. Whistler was heading out of reach for locals and Vail put the final nails in the coffin. There are so many better options in beautiful BC.
I skied Big Sky for many years. Never a lift line, near empty trials. Beautiful skiing. I Haven't been there for a long time. Does anyone know what its like now?
May not have impacted the revenue stream too much as people plan trips and buy tickets/lodging months in advance so they are forced to go - hence why we are still seeing crazy lift lines. But if this continues, I can guarantee people will not be rebooking their trips for next season. Plus, I believe with the social media attention people are more cognizant of Vail's practices and will avoid even when lifts open back up. Appreciate the unbiased review
Thanks for the comment! I agree - revenue won’t be impacted this year as trips are booked, but I feel this will leave a bad taste in a lot of people’s mouths and make them choose differently moving forward.
I grew up in a ski town and after I graduated from highschool I would skip trying to ski during the holiday break and on weekends. Open slopes and short mid week lift lines are awesome. Waiting in line is no fun.
@Galbra1th Payday loans and title loans are destroying the poor across America, yet they keep us convinced it's each other with manufactured race wars.
Hello sir I have a question so I thought I can ask you about it so generally private equity firm acquire business right in the same way can you acquire a private equity firm like completely acquire the ownership of the private equity firm
I guess I am in the minority. I only ski Monday-Thursday and very rarely do I ever wait longer than a few minutes in any line at Park City. Holidays are ALWAYS going to be insanely crowded, at any resort. The epic local pass is a great bargain. We love park city, just don’t ski when the crowds arrive.
Same same moutain biking. Whistler was like $300 for 3 days in 2019. In 2018 I paid €250 for Portes Soleil for the *season* and that includes all lifts in that part of France and Switzerland. Like 10 or so resorts.
I loved it when I was a kid to my early 20s until I left Utah in 2004. I came back in 2022 and I quickly learned that this has taken the joy out of snowboarding. 2034 will be a nightmare due to Winter Games if we already have this many people here.
They got Park City because someone forgot to renew the lease, I think by a few hours or a day and Vail jumped in and got the lease. To me this seems very fishy.
As insane as the price of skiing has become, there seems to be absolutely no shortage of people willing to pay it. In fact that number continues to grow. As long as that’s true, I don’t see anything changing for the better.
I have used an Epic pass unlimited for years now. I use it at least once in Europe and once in Canada. I ski a lot more than when I had to scrounge for vouchers and join ski clubs. It is tough to buy a pass 8-10 months before I will use it but I got used to it. If someone can’t afford the price of a pass the solution is to ski at smaller resorts and probably ski a weekend or two each year. Skiing over 10 days a year as a family is always going to be expensive. It was 20 years ago, everything is expensive in the USA. The lift lines are crazy. I would skip going there until the mountain opens more trails. When this happens it is time to use skin and go uphill where it is allowed. The workers need better pay, I get it but THATS PRECISELY WHAT FUELS INFLATION.
Imagine! For hardly more than the price of a single day ticket at Vail, you can buy a season ticket valid at 2 dozens Swiss ski resorts... several of them offering better skiing than Vail!
@@Galbra1th Yes! The Magic Pass is a season pass costing CHF 399 (ca. $445), and valid in 70 Swiss resorts (not 2 dozens..I checked), including world-renowned Gstaad (as of 5.1.25, though) or Saas Fee, plus a few French and a couple of Italian ones! So, even if you come to Switzerland for only a week, it stays a great deal! It used to be accepted at the huge Crans- Montana ski area, unit the lifts there were bought by... Vail resorts, Inc... which.. you guessed right... pulled out of the deal!
Skiing in the U.S. is incredibly expensive. Spending a week there as a family of five feels like taking out a mortgage. I’ve switched to European resorts, primarily in Switzerland and Italy.
Private equity does tend to ruin everything it touches but the ski resorts historicaly has paid the majority of it's staff in lift access not money. $23 per hour is also not a living wage anyplace around Park City
Vail will likely raise prices and only cater to the super rich! Lowes did this by raising prices but selling less proved more profitable! Just buy inline skates and save your money!
This has been a long time coming. It started with the federal governments crack down on allowing ski areas from opening at all. Making the pool small, with a growing population. Today it is near impossible to open a new facility on federal land. Which allows one large fish to dominate the fish tank so to speak. I love skiing, but more and more I hate the process, and the ever increasing prices. It really has become for me a not enough juice for the squeeze scenario.
I continue to feel despondent over this model of running ski resorts. Driving for higher profits leads to these issues: 1. more advanced equipment to attract customers costs $$, so increase prices 2. If that doesn’t work, reduce operating costs (mostly salaries of workers) 3. Development to drove up real estate, which drives out local workers and lower-income families. Not sure the solution now; the answer for any private owner is to stay private, don’t give in! Ski resorts survived and thrived for decades without high speed lifts, massive shopping areas, gondolas, etc. (snow-making is arguably necessary in areas, so that investment remains priority IMO). Some fantastic ski areas have the humblest lodges; families all getting on gear/hanging out on folding tables, gear everywhere, meals are either chili or pizza or fries, lol. I know that’s history for most places but the current trends are ridiculous and unnecessary. They only occur because investors drive for more profit but I’d say it doesn’t truly improve the skiing or resort. Ppl loved skiing when it was 2-person slow lifts, they’ll still love it with 2-person slow lifts. Where we go, it was recently bought and thankfully not much has changed but I’m very worried. The high-speed lifts ARE nice but the best runs are off the slow-speed lifts. I don’t ride terrain parks so that doesn’t matter for me. I don’t know what will happen if Vail fails. I kinda want them too, but not sure who would pick up each mountain. Maybe some co-ops of locals at each area. But I do think Vail has to fail and Epic passes do too.
The actual dynamics in such market declines have little to do with greed. The price which maximizes profit is rarely the highest price. As demand drops and costs increase, operators have little choice but to recover fixed costs on lower volume thru price increases, which in turn cause sales to drop even further. That is a self-reinforcing decline, aka a “death spiral.”
Private equity has ruined everything. But also the mass corporatization of everything in the US. And then there is the overcrowding, population boom, too many rich folks moving to mountain towns, etc. Skiing & snowboarding was so much better in Utah 10-15 years ago. There were still many privately owned resorts and you could get discount passes at local grocery stores and gear outfitters. The cost to ride now is prohibitive for many, so you get a mountain that is overcrowded by a bunch of wealthy twits posing for Instagram shots. I grew up skiing as a kid in Utah and even then a $10 lift ticket was a struggle. Switched to snowboarding in the 90s and prices were ~$20. Next decade it was $60. It's sad that the younger generation has been priced out of an activity that is right in their back yard.
I’ve been a pass holder since 2003 at Kirkwood, this is the first year we elected to not buy season passes 21 years, Kirkwood was bought by Vail in 2012 claimed they were going to make updates to the mountain, they instead decommissioned a relatively new lift. The have continued to let the property decline, everything just looks worn out now especially the main lodge, the old lodge has not received hardly any improvements and looks like it did back in the 1973-74, there is an area near the cafeteria and condo complex that still has rebar sticking out of the ground, and Timber Creek and learn to ski area is still in a temporary building/tent. 13 years no improvements, excessive wind holds for even lower lifts that don’t service the top of the mountain have left me questioning why am I even coming here anymore. Heavenly Valley is also looking worn down, granted some improvements have been made there, it’s not anything like it use to be to especially the food prices.
Having lived in Utah for my whole life and skied for over 50 years I agree that the corporations are ruining the ski experience. Vails motto is "We are not happy until you are not happy". You are correct on almost everything you covered until you started to spout the climate BS. I have seen it drier than it is now and two years ago I had snow up to the eves of my house. Also when you say the snow waste water you need to get your facts straight. The resorts usualy have storage basins that they pump water out of up the mountain, snow melts, water runs downhill into the basins. At Deer Valley they help offset the water shortfall to Park City in the summer. So short of a small amout of evaporation it is pretty much a closed loop on water. The energy to pump the water is another matter. So if you belive the Climate C02 line, your sking lifestyle is killing your sport, how you going to viture signal your way out of that one?
I appreciate the comment. To be clear, I wasn’t insinuating that climate change is what has resulted in this increase in price or lack of runs. I more so just meant that potential change in climate is an existential threat to the ski mountains. Whether you believe in climate change or not, I think that is a fair comment to make. I agree that a lot of the times these things get blown way out of proportion. I just meant that shorter ski seasons can definitely impact the business model of these companies!
I can fly 11hrs direct to Zurich Switzerland, train to Crans Montana, stay and ski 5 days for about $2200. Much better skiing and overall cheaper than US.
I was an avid skier for many years starting about 1970. in those days you can get an all-day lift ticket for 10 bucks. I've given up skiing because of the cost. I now go snowmobiling and have a good time. I can go snowmobiling all day and spend less than $50 in gas for the snowmobile. One can pick up a used snowmobile for a reasonable price and have a good time with it.
Vail resorts seems to ruin it for everyone. Went to Stowe last year for 3 days with my 2 kids and it was over $1000 a day! Never again. No epic pass for me.
Isn’t the first time Vail has had staffing issues, checkout what happened to Stevens pass in Washington a few years ago. Private big corp trying to rake in $$$ is not the way for happy skiing customers, needs to be local ownership or 501c3 (pretty much required for very small mountains now days to stay open). Local ownership allows them to keep costs down for customers, run programs for the local communities and reach out to those communities for volunteers.
I'm a lifelong skier and I don't even know when I'll be able to go skiing again. I WILL NOT pay those prices for one day of skiing. Sorry, but I have better things to spend money on, than $300-$400 for 8 hrs of skiing. It's gross and disgusting
I was in park city during this time…the lift lines were awful (expected due to timing), the runs were mostly just sketchy because of the lack of open terrain and the crowds…just unsafe all around…I love snowboarding as much as anyone can but I couldn’t deal with it. Went to Brighton for a few days and then left Utah a few days early and hit keystone and beaver creek in CO. I’m soured on park city and vail resorts…if their military pass wasn’t so cheap I’d probably never go back
@ I get the veteran pass as soon as they go on sale for around $500 (ikon has one too but it’s around $800). The two days in Keystone and Beaver Creek saved my trip, man. I never waited more than 5 minutes, and those were at the lifts near the base. This was my second attempt at Park City and both trips were a disaster, which sucks because the mountain/terrain is great. I doubt I’ll go back again
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
I guess everyone needs to switch to snowboarding if skiing is ruin.
Hahahaha best comment so far
💯percent
plenty of mountains without lines .... high profile, hi price. do away with the stock market and live back in the 80s
What is the difference?
@@davidkambic9169 was just a joke
Private equity tends to ruin everything it touches in the name of short-term profits.
:/
Agreed. It's not just skiing. They are locusts that destroy everything they touch by extracting wealth from bottom and middle of the pyramid and shifting it to the top.
It is even worse than that, they monopolize.
The monopoly comment is valid. Epic and Icon Pass has resulted in a huge shift to those mountains being the primary spot for many..
Watched a NBC video on how a guy from Minnesota spent 20k to ski at park city last week. For 20k he could have taken his family of 4 to Europe and skied for a week and a half all day long 😂.
Yes. Absolutely ruined the US skiing experience. I'm an American living in Europe. Just paid 76 euros per day in peak season to ski some of Austria's top resorts (Saalbach-Hinterglemm, Kitzbuhel, Flachauwinkl); heated chairlifts, gorgeous and independently managed lodges everywhere, all at still manageable (though more expensive than previous years) prices.
That’s what I keep seeing on Twitter - “it’s more affordable to fly to Europe and ski there for a week than do the same in Colorado.” I’m happy you’re able to enjoy it!
@@Galbra1th We have a lot of US guests stay at our chalet in Kitzbühel. We were surprised but this explains it all.
How many times you ski in a season?
@@BoleiMNJournal 20-25, mostly in Italy (where passes can get below 40eur). In the states I did 30-40 in college and 70-80 growing up.
@@BridgerPOWDERhound if you get an Epic pass, which is about $1000, and you ski 25 times a season, each time is about $40. And you can ski any of the Epic resorts. Not sure why people only compare the one-day pass price.
Whistler BC is a Vail property and a highly rated North American destination, but I'll never go back. Last season, I went up for a couple days mid-week and faced 90+ minutes waiting in line in the morning. Between ridiculous prices, heavy traffic and long wait times, this year I'll be going to the BC Interior to some smaller, privately run hills. Skiing is expensive enough without being gouged by greedy corporate interests who are more interested in profit margins than satisfied customers.
I couldn’t imagine waiting 90 mins for 1 lift.. I hope you have better luck at the other locations!
@@Galbra1th It doesn't get as much attention as US destinations, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of congestion problems in Whistler Village that has been exacerbated by American Epic Pass holders coming north. This clip shows the line running right through the main village. You can't even see the actual lifts:
ruclips.net/user/shortsZVqu-KqEtWo
I'm so angry, Vail ruined both resorts near me. I am contemplating if this is my last season or not, hopefully I can find somewhere better.
Yup. I live in WA state, have been to Whistler once, don't plan on going back anytime soon. On top of the Vail Corp's model of monetizing everything, weather at Whistler can be...iffy. It's in the Coast Range of BC, and it's not unusual for it to be raining at base, thick mid-mountain fog, and blowing sideways snow at the summit. Sure they get big snow dumps, but it's often heavy, wet stuff compared with inland BC or the Rockies. There are other smaller resorts in the BC interior, the Banff area, and elsewhere that I'd rather go to. And I'd rather support smaller operations that try to keep the "family" in family skiing. They often have great terrain, a better vibe, and lower costs.
90 minutes on a lift line is a deal breaker
Spot on. I say skiing was never meant to be corporatized and Disneyfied like Vail did. The people that got screwed by Vail the most are the hardworking folks that make a town a good place to live are the generational people that run all the mom and pop businesses, emergency services, teachers, town workers, trash collectors, mailmen, labor etc. Vail Corp has sucked the life out of the towns they've taken over.
Why do you think they are"importing" all this cheap labor. They push out locals by driving up prices of real estate and everything else, then bring in cheap labor ie. Illegals to fill the positions. And stick them in your house you had to sell because you can't afford to live their anymore.
It’s a tough situation. The town and its people is obviously dependent on the mountain and the tourists it brings in, but it’s these tourists that are making their town totally unaffordable. It’s a shame as I agree; Vail / Beaver Creek / Eagle is a very special place!
Vail is nothing but a Shit Show!
What people don’t realize is that if everyone didn’t buy a pass that year. Their stocks would plummet and they would be forced to lower prices.
But people like to bitch and complain but not actually take and actions, then cough up the hundreds of dollars for a pass.
You all are the problem you have let it get this bad.
Vail itself was never an actual town at all, it is a complete artifice
I have lived in the Salt Lake valley my entire life. I can no longer afford to ski in my own beautiful mountains. It is becoming a sport for the rich. Sad.
Argh I’m sorry to hear that! Are there other options nearby that you can still enjoy?
@@Galbra1ththey are all increasing prices
@@Galbra1thyou could also do about 10 minutes of research or less to find this out….
Same in Colorado. Sad
It’s the result of overpopulation. The mountain can only handle so many people. Obviously it isn’t expensive enough, they need to triple the price to get the crowds more reasonable. The current price is just making the experience bad for everyone, too many people.
Lifelong Utahn and Park City local here. Vail has ruined this town. There is not one local I know that holds a favorable view of Vail. Every single person wants them to sell the resort and leave, never to return. Park City and The Canyons were much better managed before Vail took over. The experience and vibe of Park City Mountain Resort went from fun and friendly to stiff and corporate.
The circumstances of how Vail took control of Park City Mountain Resort is would make for a great dedicated episode.
I appreciate the perspective from a Park City local! I can definitely look into the transaction that led the resort down this path. Is there any subject you think is necessary for me to include to capture the full story (I.e. not just what story is told my the companies)?
@@Galbra1thThere should be plenty of public info available. It was quite a soap opera. It would make an entertaining video. (18 year Park City resident here)
You may agree with these guys who wrote a song about it:
VAIL FAIL BAIL
ruclips.net/video/K-FGAUK0c30/видео.htmlsi=CldJJrQBf7oBPh59
When PCMR and the Canyon's merged under Vail resorts ownership it was the worst thing to happen to both properties. They ruined the Whistler experience years earlier and repeated the mistakes there at Park City.
I go to park city every weekend. Just snowboarded Beaver Creek, Vail, Copper Mountain (I have an ikon pass too) and Breckenridge for vacation over the holidays. I love my Epic Pass and take advantage of it every year. Park City side is crowded, but people that know, know how to get around the crowds, where to park., time of day to go. You want to talk about disasters, Brighton on the weekend, Cottonwood Canyon period on any weekend. Brighton is privately owned, but is 10x ques worst than PC In my opinion. I will only go to Brighton during the week, if I take some time off of work.
Vail's stock may be down recently to $180 but keep in mind it was trading around $11 back in 2003. What they have done over the past couple of decades, and the rest of the ski industry has largely followed their lead, is to corporatize and destroy the tradition of family skiing. Skiing was once a great family sport that has now become unaffordable for most families today. They also continue to monopolize the industry thereby autocratically controlling prices and instead of outsourcing labor abroad like PE companies do, they bring in cheap labor from abroad instead. The best thing that could happen to the US ski industry would be for the major ski resort companies like Vail to divest all of their holdings and let the industry manage itself as a free market again.
It’s a good take. I’m not sure why / how Vail would ever divest their assets though. I think there needs to be more affordable supply of ski runs. Potentially local governments building out their own “public parks”
"Free" markets are what allow companies like Vail to buy up everyone else. Government owned resorts are the way to go.
@@Galbra1th PE companies don't sit on dead money. If they cannot grow their fund's profits to target, they shed off the underperforming assets. In this case, stagnant growth could force them to sell off resorts if their returns are unattractive. Vail's stock has had a meteoric rise over the past few decades...PE companies know to sell high.
@@LiberatedMind1 When in the history of the world, a government ran something successfully over time?
Higher prices incentivize people to buy ski passes. A family can buy a 4 day ski pass for a Vail resort, or a local pass to a resort near their house. And it's still priced well. About $100 per day for the 4-7 days pass. Not bad for a huge resort with some of the best snow in the world. What you're saying just isn't true. Big resorts have better runs and therefore should charge more. You'll never see a $50 day pass for Vail or Park City. But a small ski resort with shorter runs will be priced like that to attract the crowds. That's capitalism at its finest bud. Also, high prices are a natural filter to the amount of people that will be on the mountain. All those resorts are already over crowded on the weekends, and some during the week even with the high prices that are being charged now. Imagine what it will look like, and how much time you'll have to stand in line if it was more affordable?
Thank you for this! I live in Utah now and started skiing in 1967, so I have a lot of years to compare. The cost of skiing is absolutely ridiculous. I don't know how the skiers push back outside of simply refusing to go skiing to send the message. These corporations are pushing it to the extreme and I hope there is huge backlash for them. If I was one of those Park City skiers over the holidays I would be livid. They should all be given refunds. getting 3 runs down the hill for $350 is actual robbery. It's sad to see the sport I love taken hostage. Something must be done.
It’s super unfortunate as skiing is such a unique experience.
I didn't ski last year and likely won't this year due to greed, excessive costs and poor skiier experience. I've replaced that time joining a Sim Golf league where I have fun and laughs with my buds over a few drinks and don't have to worry about being cold. LOL!
Everything in America is getting ruined by greed .. but don’t worry billionaires and tech bros will fix it 😂
I feel like the billionaires and tech bros are the ones who are finding better ways to operate than the status quo. I don’t think you can say Elon uses the same practices as PE to run his businesses, so I don’t see the connection..
@ what are a few specific improvements you see ? I am speaking more from a quality of life angle from 80s until now in the US. What I see is way more struggle to get by and much wider income inequality, where tech tends to not provide real value. Electric cars can be good from environment view of course .. economic angle is more controversial. Blockchain , meme coins and most social media is just making society overall worse backed by mental health studies
Agree with you. I live a good chunk of the time in Truckee, Ca & will never give the big resorts my money anymore - the vibe at Northstar & Palisades (used to be Squaw Valley & Alpine Meadows) are overcrowded and ridiculously snobby, so I ski where I grew up at Sugar Bowl. They treat passholders like gold & take pride in not being like the big resorts - however without a pass I could probably only afford to ski 2-3 days a year, even at Sugar Bowl. By your name I'm guessing you might be into guitar, like i am, and I would never buy a new Gibson (anything after 2019) because they're now owned by the PE group KKR, when I can get a Heritage guitar made in the original Kalamazoo factory that has better QC for less money.
@@craighamley3669 that’s good you’re smart about who is just for profit vs really doing right for their customers. I didn’t know that about Gibson. I had to buy a practice amp a few years ago and bought older model since was better made. I am a surfer primarily now and it’s overall good as aren’t charged lift ticket prices ha. Yeah I taught guitar a long time and have videos teaching but lately I’ve been more into non guitar music and learning Ableton
@@GuitarWithBrett For all the good that came from the internet becoming ubiquitous, there was certainly quite a bit of bad.
Social media in particular has poisoned society.
I skied park city last year (live in London and have skied predominantly in Europe) - the cost was insane! Passes, food, accommodation, it was wild. Made me feel for US based skiers, especially as infrastructure is way worse than in Europe. Just hoping Europe never gets commercialised in the same way…
Where you you like to go in Europe? Why did you even come to the US in the first place? Lol
Haha, I actually went for the cat skiing, only skied a day at each end in PC/Deer Valley - so had to get two separate day passes which was eye-watering! Park city is relatively easy from the UK and there aren’t really any cat skiing operations in Europe, so me and mate decided to give it a try (and we love powder skiing obvs). Don’t get me wrong, was a fantastic experience but the cost means there’s no way I would trek to the US for resort skiing. Europe wise I’ve skied maybe 20 resorts across France/Swiss/Austria/Italy - Val D’Isere is a big fave, Ischgl is awesome (probs my fave for apres in the alps), Verbier good but expensive. Essentially there are a lot of great resorts, just the snow cover in recent years has been pretty unreliable. The main thing that irritated me about PC was it was so expensive and yet the infrastructure was rubbish and the food up the mountain was shite. Everyone was super friendly though, I think the British accent helped! 😂
What hasn't private equity destroyed? Serious question. Name an industry it's helped..
Asset management 🥶😂
they destroyed affordability, ticket price, parking price, lodging price, food price. Buy up competitors= ski shops, liquor stores, retail stores, transportation companies ect. that is what Vail has destroyed. I saw it first hand living in a resort town.
because we have people who keep voting in representatives in our government that don't want to pass any laws against corporate greed.
The development of new products and businesses.... Most of the things you do or touch... Do you think the government could manage a economy better? Yes it has its issues, but letting these business fail and die will evolve the economy. The problem is when big gov bails them out in the name of saving jobs...
Aaand that’s why I don’t get ikon or epic but support Sierra at Tahoe after the fires. If the join Alterra full time I will get Dodge Ridge or Bear Mountain. Support your local hill or get into backcountry with proper education. Vuck Fail
I live in Salt Lake City and have many world class resorts between 30-60 minutes from my home. I am upper middle class and have decided skiing is no longer smart financially…plus fighting for parking, long lift lines and crowded slopes. Fortunately Utah has many incredible state and national parks, great hiking and lakes. My wife and I can enjoy awesome recreation without the high costs for us to spend just one day standing in lines for few ski runs on the mountain.
I’m happy to hear you’re still able to enjoy the great outdoors! It really is a shame that even financially responsible people still cannot justify the expenditure.
@@Galbra1thit is becoming more and more an image thing than a love for the sport and nature.
Back in the early 60s Park City had some 1200 residents and falling some calling it a ghost town in the making. However the people of park city took a government grant for helping economically dire towns. They turned that money into a ski area called treasure mountain resort and they did not expect profits from the resort as it was supposed to exist as a means of getting tourists and skiiers into the towns restaurants,hotels and other businesses. Its said they were surprised the mountain made a small profit it's first year. Given that what we have today is a corporation that has wrecked skiing not only for locals but now everyone and their greed and shakedown of ski resorts originally intended in many cases to exist only to generate economic community growth and value has been hijacked and the community and the public have to suffer the consequences of a tiny fraction of people that will butcher and industry or company to get rich. Vail Resorts leaders and CEOs care nothing about skiing or the quality of the skiing since barely any of them even ski,much less giving a S%$t about the local communities or interests. Its a shame that we used to have a working model but greedy rich misers eventually had to step in and basically rob the public of a good thing so they might get that 3rd 25 million dollar yacht.
It’s interesting to hear what Park City was like back in the 60s. I think a good step forward could be a similar process with local governments developing other public lands to turn them into public ski areas.
It's cheaper to fly to Europe for a European vacation and ski than stay domestic.. it's stupid.
It’s crazy!
But some people may think this means skiing in the alps is affordable - it’s not. Just more affordable than skiing in the U.S. lol
@@Galbra1th regardless it's a better experience
That is not true. If you buy a season pass thru vail or an icon pass it's not that much to actually ski. Lodging can be expensive and so can food if you are dumb enough to eat on the mtn. A flight to Europe for 1 seat is over 1k!!!!
@bertrenolds5 that's the point dude. They bought the whole damn town..
YES !!! I can say this because I ski at a small family run ski area and have also skied most of the "big" resorts. Yes the Vail resorts have better lifts and longer runs, however, at our small ski area, we all know each other, very friendly, lots of charm, no crowds, lots of great powder and fantastic tree skiing. I will not tell anyone where it is.
Happy to hear that! I hope that can continue!
SO TRUE!! I've enjoyed checking out places like Vail and some other "big name" resorts, but my heart is with a ski area not too far from my home. Still privately owned, fun terrain, great family vibe. And I too will not divulge its name.
The people who were willing to pay these outrageous prices are a big part of the problem
lol! So true. I buy a season pass and ski 100 days a year so $1200 for the icon is a great deal. But for 5 days? Only a rich fool--or a fool-- would consider it.
Both the Epic and Ikon pass offerings are a double-edged sword. IF you ski enough days, and enjoy going to a few different ski areas per year, they're very cost-effective. And if you avoid the overpriced food and lodging provided by these places, even better. The reason Epic and Ikon passes exist is to lock in $$ for Vail Corp and Alterra, regardless of what the season is like. They provide the companies with a stable income stream that isn't as dependent on bad weather at some locations, etc. Frankly, you'd have to be crazy or crazy rich to plunk down the exorbitant $$ for a day pass at places like Park City, Vail, or Breck. Even a 5-day Epic Day pass would be far more cost-effective.
True
PE ruins everything it touches. Period. Note to Cameron: snow making is not a strain on water resources. The snow will melt in the spring and turn back into water making its way back to streams, lakes, underground aquifers, etc. The idea that snowmaking wastes water is a fallacy.
Thanks for the clarification on the snow making! That makes total sense.
Actually Yellowstone club is trying to use reclaimed water because it is an issue
Snow making machines alter the ecosystem, altering the water table and the natural water cycle. They introduce fungicidal proteins that are used to seed the snow which effects the plant growth. Artificial snow melts slower than natural snow and more is lost to evaporation and sublimation. So there is a net loss of water by using snow machines - not to mention the energy costs.
Yes and no, you are correct that it is not a total waste of water. There is loss in ground percolation and evaporation and must be considered. Utah is super dry and evaporation does occur even below freezing temps - look for that mini ice cube in the back of your freezer. Its not full proof.
@barbaravanerp4598 Usually reclaimed water is cheap--WWTPs give it away in some cases. So even with additional MBR and ozone treatment that water is going to be less expensive than trucking or piping in new fresh water. Fresh water is always going to be "an issue", it's a matter of how much do other alternatives cost in comparison.
US skiing is ruined. So please don’t ruin the Alps too
I’ll do my best!
💯
Not all of it and hopefully nobody will clue you in publically, but there are a few gems still out there
I take my 4-year old skiing at Solitude regularly, and was born in PC and grew up skiing DV every weekend. I just can't imagine the disappointment I'd feel if I showed up to go skiing with my kids and saw one of those lift lines. "Well guys, I don't know what to say, just stand here in the snow for 45 minutes."
Yeah I feel for all the parents who had to wait in that line..
I won't cross picket lines to ski at Park City this year and I've communicated with them and their investor relations my displeasure with their employee relations. I won't buy another Epic Pass unless they change their priorities. It would not hurt them in the least to be decent to their employees. We apparently cannot satisfy the obscene greed of the private equity companies, but also of the general investment community. This model is completely driving a wrecking ball through companies and consumers.
Has their IR team gotten back to you?
@@Galbra1th Not yet.
Vail lift tickets increased 300% in 4 years and yet they complain about a $2 raise stating ski patrol wages have gone up 50% in 4 years. So lift tickets went from about $100 in 2020 to about $300, an extra profit of $200; yet they complain about the extra $10 they have to pay to ski patrol.
We need a nationwide Vail ski patrol boycott, demand changes. Bring back season passes to 1/3 of what they cost today, in-line with where they were 5 years ago, don't charge for everything on the mountain, cut prices by 50% everywhere for dining/drinks, and increase lift capacity with larger chairs. They can say no all they want, but losing billions in a season and force them to go bankrupt is not an option for them; so they have to say yes.
Interesting strategy. I think food 100% should be reduced starting NOW!
"Bring back season passes to 1/3 of what they cost today" - oh yeah that will definitely help with lines. 🤡
10 years ago, I could fly from St Louis, Mo, get a shuttle, rental, housing, lift, and ski passes for $800. Went grocery shopping , and went out to eat a few times. Total 1000.00 for the entire trip cost. for 4 days. I thought that was a luxury, but affordable.
@@Galbra1thIt might be better to inform your viewers of the actual market dynamics involved. A $200 price increase never means “an extra profit of $200.” And the price which results in max profit is almost never the highest price. Large price increases clearly hurt sales volume, so whenever they appear, you can be sure the operators regard it as a poison pill. But there are always fixed costs that simply must be paid. The resultant declines in sales only necessitate further price hikes, and further cuts in services and maintenance, making (for one example) lift lines lengthen. It’s a death spiral, and the biggest root cause is probably inflation. When currency is devalued and salaries do not increase, then essentially people are becoming poorer.
Imagine being an east coast skier and saving money for years planning a dream trip out west, spending the time to pick and plan it, paying $10,000+ between lift tickets, travel, lodging/food only for this to happen. I would be beyond livid
That’s what I keep thinking about. I couldn’t imagine having to wait for hours when I’ve paid that much.
Imagine paying $10k just to ski at a Vail owned resort 😂 I'd be in Japan or Europe with that kind of money skiing for a full week and still come back spending less!
We go to locally owned smaller mountains in Tahoe. I refuse to pay and participate in these terrible passes. Especially for lower level green/blue skiing families, I’ll never use most of these black runs anyhow. I’ll take the old school lodges with chicken fingers or fly to Europe on occasion. Ugh! Private equity burning it all down.
Makes sense! If you’re not trying to go down the steepest mountain or toughest terrain then there is nothing wrong with that! Hope y’all have fun!
I remember the days you could buy a next day lift ticket at your local supermarket. Or you could roll up to the resort and buy a same day ticket for around $50. Now days a same day lift ticket will cost $200 no matter where you go. Look to Europe and their lift tickets aren’t nearly as much. Two companies controlling almost all the resorts has destroyed the experience for common people here in America
Yeah as I said it’s become totally unaffordable for a middle class (and even upper class) family. Sure lift tickets are $200+ but that doesn’t even take into consideration the equipment rentals, food there, and lodging.. crazy!
Heck, I remember the days when you could get "twofer" ticket ( 2 lift tickets for the price of one) for $9!
@@Galbra1thI really hope this model fails… it’s ruined the experience and I think will do long term damage to the sport.
That's a great reason to support smaller, independent ski areas. A lot of them still exist, and are far more reasonable for families. They may not have some of the terrain and name cachet that places like Vail, Park City, Telluride, and Whistler have, but they can provide a fun time, good learning areas for kids, and they still have "soul." And ski shops away from the resorts often have good season rental deals. As far as food and lodging: DON'T stay at the hotels owned by the big corporations, and brown bag it!!
Ski resorts are becoming like amusement parks: overpriced and too crowded. Not worth it there are plenty of other great recreation sports.
That’s why there’s a ton of value at the smaller but lesser known parks. The mountains may not be as “good” but they’re a far better experience.
Vail resorts did it to themselves gauging riders every day at every resort they run -own. It’s rediculous they have the money to pay ski patrol more corporate greed at work much larger ski areas and resorts in Europe make it happen for 40-70 euros a ticket and they are 10-40,000 skiable acres for many of them they do just fine
Unfortunately it’s all about the margins to them. That’s the issue being a public company, you are always expected to find ways to grow your revenue. The public markets don’t reward flat profitability each year - it requires you to eke out every cent you can.. Just a tough reality :/
@@Galbra1thand this is why the US economy is going down the drain. Every company has to maximize profits every quarter otherwise they're deemed a failure. You can't squeeze juice from a rock...
People, stop giving into these resorts. We’re the problem. They know you’ll pay, they continue to mark up.
There is definitely truth in this. I mentioned the $350 day pass - and yet the lines are absolutely packed!
Can’t afford it anyways lol
Lifelong Utahn, son of a ski patrolman, grew up near PC and even worked for the resort prior to Vail coming to town. I also work for a publicly traded company that is consolidating an industry so I’ve seen both sides. Vail has made the experience worse in the name of creating shareholder value.
Interesting perspective. Hopefully your current company is doing a better job!
The funny thing is I'm sure a huge percentage of people that had their vacation ruined by Vail will purchase their Epic Pass again next year. If you don't vote with your wallet corporations will continue to take advantage of you.
Right.
PC local here, couple things going on that need to be considered. First, the ENTIRE mountain is rarely open for Christmas week. Its just to early in the season and the snow totals do not allow for the upper mountain that does not have snowmaking to open tell mid Jan. Second, the ski patrol strike is a joke. They cite living wages as the reason but $21 vs $23 starting wages will NEVER change what is needed to live up here. You need to make 100K+ a year to afford a 1 bedroom condo at $650K. Get real, if I could make 100K a year being a ski bum then EVERYBODY would be doing it. I patrolled when I was 19, best job that I ever had and loved every day I got paid to strap on my skies and make runs. Avi control was the best, the only way you could get a 19 year old idiot out of bed at 5AM. my legs were spent by 10AM from skiing untracked in avi boundary control locations. I knew it was a pre-college, pre-occupation to get out of mom and dads house job. Third, those nasty lines are not new this year, of course everybody says its the worst ever, but I will never ski during holiday break as I have been stuck in lines for 55 min before. Fourth, $355 otd for passes is over the top. I bought snow machines/timbersleds and hit the non crowded mountains to get my powder fix. even at $15K for a set up vs ticket prices - its cheaper and I am alone!
lol definitely some valid points about ski patrol not being a career.. And I agree that it’s hard to see how a $2 increase is going to drastically change the quality of life and all of a sudden allow them to afford Park City..
Strike is really not about $2. That’s the narrative but it’s about wage compression.
Aren't there dormotories for seasonal employees at PC? I know Vail Resorts provides this for employees at Whistler - especially those there on work Visa's from Australia that I've met over the years. Granted, I realize many employeers are year-rounders, but some locals I would think take advantage of this.
@@MikeBodo this will be the new model for ski areas. plenty of old hotels they can convert to employee housing. If they can stop being cheap AF.
The Unlimited season pass is the straw that broke the camels back. Rather than charging a reasonable daily rate they pushed the all included ticket. This means there is no way of regulating how many people show up to ski on a particular day. The system gets overloaded quickly with this unpredictability in skier load. The upfront money grab is backfiring in a big way. They are getting close to the tipping point where it is cheaper to fly to Europe and ski or just stay home.
I have no clue how as a business there is no way to regulate the daily flow. I saw someone earlier mention segmenting it into weekend and weekday passes to account for the weekend warriors.
@@Galbra1th If you had to purchase a ticket, or be issued one for each day as a season pass holder, the mountain could cut off the total number of skiers on the property at any given time. They know what is open and the working lift capacity. If you can move 5,000 people per hour on all of your operating lifts you should not have say 10,000 people on the property or you will have the chaos that is shown. It can be done if they really cared about their customer base.
@@Galbra1thCrystal mtn in WA had this problem on ikon. The solution was limited no of days per year on ikon (~7) unless you got the extra crystal pass. Now they try to limit it with a required parking pass at the resort.
I live just 2 miles from the mouth of the canyon from one of these major resorts. My days of skiing are over. They have oversold these epic and icon passes making it difficult to ski. Roads are heavily congested. The lines are incredibly long. The prices have just skyrocketed. Skiing is no longer a family sport. Sadly it is for the wealthy. I choose to put my money elsewhere.
Thanks for the perspective! Do a lot of locals have epic passes or is it all people from out of town?
Locals don’t really use epic as much because Ikon has 6 other resorts in Utah compared to just 1 for epic
Easy answer: Don't go to any resort which is on a mega pass. Except the Indy Pass.
There are lots of magical mountains in charming towns waiting for you. Beaver Mountain Utah. Lost Trail Montana. Wolf Creek Pass Colorado. Ski Santa Fe New Mexico. These places all have charm, hospitality, reasonable prices, great snow, and hometown vibe. Don't even think about Park City, Vail, etc.
Good point! For people who aren’t local or big skiers many may not know these places exist because of what they see online being dominated by the big guys.
@@Galbra1thwe need a good online guide for all the other ski passes
Thank you for this. You've got me thinking. I'm an Ikon pass holder and I ski out of my van. The big resorts and resort towns are very inhospitable to van campers. I've read that the smaller resorts are much more hospitable and have experienced it myself a bit.
Its sad to see how expensive skiing/snowboarding has become. Growing up here in Utah I had a lot of fun and have great memories at a lot of the resorts. Its crazy to think that 15-20 years ago a day pass was around 30-60. I remember when the olympics where here I had a season pass to park city resort for $99. I have been priced out of skiing and havent gone in over a decade. I wont be returning to the slopes unless it becomes more cost effective. im not holding my breath.
Do you still live in Utah? If so it’s super unfortunate you haven’t been able to enjoy it in your own backyard.
one thing you haven't mentioned was that Vail hires foreign workers, most of them from South America, where the labor contracts end in the last week of March. So, most of Vail resorts plan to close in the second week of April despite the snow conditions in many years were fine to ski. People feel like got cheated. Most of iKon-pass resorts don't do that, where they try to stay open as long as they can. Vail is a mismanaged, greedy company
That’s an interesting fact. I wasn’t aware of that..
@@Galbra1th yep, just go visit a Vail resort sometimes in March and first week of April, you would see numbers of employees dramatically reduced starting April 1st and some of the lifts and restaurants are starting to shut down. And the local employees would be struggling to keep the place running efficiently. I have seen that in the past five years. From Vail's annual report, Vail makes 17% operating profit and 9% net profit, those are ok numbers, not great numbers, Somehow, some of the costs and management team incentives were not explained in details in the annual report. So, I felt like the current management team just want to jack up the stock price and look for a way to sell of their options (they don't care if Vail can grow the sport or not)...
@@Galbra1th Vail extensively uses J1 visas which are meant for "cultural exchange" but in reality are abused to bring in cheap labor from Peru.
I just skied at Sun Valley, independently owned but on Ikon pass. 90% of staff at the resort: lifties, hotel staff, food service, etc. were from Peru, Uraguay, Argentina, etc. It is on their name tags.
Ikon does the same and in the east the only mt opened in April is killington vt
Corporate greed is destroying everything good for the majority of people.
:/
I remember paying $189 for a full season student pass at Smugglers Notch in VT. No restrictions, no blackouts. We stayed on campus during winter break so we could ski everyday all day. Those were magical times in the late 1990’s.
When I worked for a major resort in California, many of the instructors and patrollers were Australians. The resort would fill the lift op and general hospitality positions with kids from Orange County but the more specific pro skiing positions need people who ski as a career. BUT the need is seasonal so they hire Australians during what is the off-season down under. By going back and forth the Australians could work on snow year-round. They also had some employees from so cal theme parks during what were the lighter months for theme parks and heavy for skiing, eg February through Easter.
The resort had hundreds of hotel rooms right across the street from the main lodge that were only used for seasonal employees. Your job and the rooming were tied. If you quit or were fired you lost your room also. Rent came out of your check. One rowdy wing of the hotel was nothing but lift ops and food service workers.
I haven't looked at any numbers recently but skiing visits were in decline from the 1980s onward. Skiing has always skewed toward the upper middle class and the wealthy. My sense is the contraction in business and the decreasing numbers for total ski days per season have led to the obvious split in business models: 1) small local resorts are going under or barely haning on and afraid to raise ticket prices, or 2) big brand resorts are going more exclusive and trying to get more revenue per visitor. eg due the same or higher dollars even as total customers decrease.
I left Vail in 1992. Locals were already being pushed down valley. Same thing happened in the roaring fork valley. Billionaires bought out millionaires and they bought out everything else, pushing "locals / workers" past Glenwood down to Rifle. The real estate industry caused this.
Great video, Cameron!! Very informative and the video seems to be performing quite well at the moment.
Thanks as always David! And yep - can’t believe the engagement!!
In 1984 major Tahoe and Mammoth ski resorts charged about 35 bucks for a one day lift ticket.If you adjust for inflation tickets should be 106 bucks in 2024.Resorts ownership ruined skiing due to greed.
Crazy!!
@@Galbra1thIt was like that everywhere…
I have been an epic pass holder for 14 years. Every year I pay more for the privilege of ever increasing season passes, traffic to the vail properties in CO, ungodly lift lines and in short an ever decreasing customer experience.
I can’t imagine how much it’s changed in 14 years
Why do you continue to buy the pass?
@ i buy the pass because I love to ski and thus far been willing to put up with the negatives that come with the sport. I don’t put the blame solely on the resort operators as everything seems to be more congested and expensive these days. I also don’t pretend to have any answers to the problems that increased interest in the sport have caused. It is was it is! So I will deal with it until I determine the costs outweigh my enjoyment. Just getting closer to that point than I ever have been.
Back in 1990 my last year in the Canadian Rockies, I skied 20 out of 30 days in November that year, never once did I pay more than $60 CAD for a day pass at Sunshine & Lake Louise, it's truly insane what it costs today
If you want to eliminate the lines, turn them into private clubs like golf courses. $100K up front to join and $20K a year for a family membership. Drinks and food not included.
Yeah I’m really surprised there’s not things like this already. This seems like a natural next step for the true luxury experience.
Plenty of people will pay for that.
Private Equity and Big Corp consolidation is ruining EVERYTHING. I work in the Coffee Industry and Private Equity is on a buying rampage throughout the space and causing all kinds of price increases and service decreases, and in general sucking the cash out of the local economies, and making liquidity that much harder for the local business that are the final mile for the entire value chain. It's nuts. And the PE owners DGAF.
I’ve seen that play out in NYC with Pret a Manger. It’s everywhere!
The price of lift tickets in Canada and the US is absolutely outrageous. Profiteering and corporate greed is destroying local ski hills and people’s ability to access them, by jacking up lift tickets and catering to tourists only.
I have been skiing every year for. 60 years. When I was young I could ski 5 hours at night for 2.99 dollars (1970’s). In the last 20 years we have skied mainly in Utah-mainly deer valley. In recent years we have seen prices skyrocket and customer service decline. How young families can afford this is surprising because I have to think twice before booking. I may give up skiing prematurely just because it’s insane. It has become a sport for the wealthy and is cutting out the middle class family. Corporate greed.
I live here in Park City year round, since 2023. This situation sucks, though haven’t cared to go skiing since I got back from Christmas in FL
Why have you chosen to not go skiing?
Overcrowding, lack of qualified patrollers up till today, even just making up the canyons is a nightmare on weekends gotta go during the week and even that isn’t great with all the nepo babies and “work” from home crowd
@@mattjax16boo hoo you’re getting old. 😭
@@Galbra1th cause the lines ain’t worth it
The cost of lift tickets has got absolutely ridiculous! The hate that resorts/ski slopes have towards any ski alternatives like snowboards, skibikes, ski scooters and snogo/ski trike is annoying and ridiculous! I am a disabled veteran, my body dont allow me to ski/snowboard anymore I tried out and ended up buying 2 snogo ski trikes, I can ski all day with no pain no issues but found most resorts only want skis and reluctantly snowboards. I had to get my adaptive skiing card to be allowed at many but they still restrict me to only some of their trails/lifts even though i have to pay the same as everyone else and my wife cant ski or board but she crushes it on the snogo but then we are limited to only a few places alomg with the fact that it cost $500+ for me to take her and my 2 kids!
I’m sorry to hear that. My stepfather is disabled and it’s hard enough without ski resorts charging you extra… I’m glad you’re still able to find ways to enjoy the snow!
I lived in Vail 11 years, worked for them at Golden Peak 8 years. It's the best resort to ski. Period! Climate change has ruined the experience. Overpopulation is permanent. Good luck.....
You can have the best mountain and runs but if it’s as crowded as it looks it doesn’t matter..
I'm on ski patrol Mt. Baldy BC. No lift lines, great powder, reasonable prices. Whilst there isn't really Accommodation on the mountain, local towns are not too far away
That's a great alternative to the packed resorts!
I rocked an Ikon pass for years, but after the last 3, watching prices go through the roof, cutthroat tactics, and not seeing anything going back into the mountain, I just can't in good conscience give them any more of my money. I've taken to the backcountry and am much happier for it. I'd rather spend all day skinning up a mountain for one run than spending all day in a line to hop on a lift that may break down because it hasn't seen any maintenance in years. The saddest part is that this affects the potential next generation of ski/snowboarders the most. I mean seriously, learning to ski/board can be difficult and not all that much fun until you are at least decent at it. And at $300+ for a day pass, not including rentals, nobody is going to be having a good day.
That’s true. Nobody wants to pay $300+ to get their butt kicked lol
We have been going to Snowy Range in WY. Not a big resort, but I'm an old fart and I just want to ski.
hush, hush do not let the secret out..
Haha I’m happy for you! Hopefully this comment doesn’t go viral!
Yes. Pay them in the summer for an annual pass and expect the runs and lifts to be open. Well shame on you the consumer. Nothing is going to change
Hmm
I skied Vail through the seventies as my uncle was a sky patrol man and had a condo there. I partied in beaver creak long before they had slopes there. Day pass was expensive then, can't imagine how much a day pass is today? Many fond memories from Vail and heavenly at south lake taho. I had a blessed upbringing!
Great memories! Beaver Creek is awesome but around just as expensive as Vail now!
I’ve been skiing for about 40 years. While some things have definitely improved (lift capacity, for example), the experience is much worse, largely due to cost. As a young person in the 80’s and 90’s, my friends and I would take trips to Utah, we could afford a condo and we’d ski at a different resort every day. We did not have great fiscal means at the time but we could do it and we had a great time. Now, the cost to do this is absurd… and we have the means. We refuse to pay the lift ticket prices out of principle. It’s sad to me because I have so many great memories from years ago but the costs today make it impossible for young people now to have that experience. The current business strategy seems very short sighted.
I hope the industry figures out a way to make this more accessible again. I miss the good old days.
It's not private equity. Park City has problems with winds sometimes. Gondolas and lifts get closed when they have high winds. Happens all the time. Whenever that happens, everyone gets concentrated on the lifts that are still open. Creating a bottleneck. If you got there and the weather or technical issues with a gondola or a lift happens, it's just bad luck. Shit happens. It happened to me too more than once in Park City. Also, the recent strike caused vail to bring ski patrol personnel that aren't familiar with the mountain and limited the open runs because of that. Your plane can have delays or crash, your car can have an accident, your stuff can get stolen etc. That doesn't mean it's private equity's fault. Park city is a great resort to ride at when everything is open, which is most of the time. Also, like you said, Vail has 42 other resorts you can ski in. And some of them are really close to Park City. So you can always change your plans and go somewhere else. The pass that we are so entitled to be able to buy saves us a lot of money if we're planning to ski/snowboard in more than 1 resort through the winter. Bad days on the mountain can happen for many different reasons. For example just earlier today I got off a mountain after only an hour or so, because it was too foggy to see where I was going, and the clouds that we went through also created sticky ice spots on the goggles and cameras. It wasn't fun and was very annoying. I couldn't see where to go and barely the snow on the ground which is dangerous.
I hear ya. Definitely bad luck when that happens.
The thing I miss most about living in Japan was paying 4,500 - 6,000¥ for lift ticket and getting some of the best powder in the world
What does that equate to in USD?
@Galbra1th ¥6,000 is $38 today
The thing that ruins skiing is the crowds. Who's responsible for that, Vail or the masses of people who want their product? Who's responsible for home prices in Park City, Vail or the people who want to live there so badly they are willing to pay more than the next person to buy the house? Remember, You are not in a lift line; you are the lift line. Triple the price of passes, and we'll see who really wants to ski. I would work a second job to ski if I had to, and it offered a better experience. Bitching about crowds while you are in the crowd is the definition of entitlement.
I agree with this. The people who chose to pay the $350 for a lift ticket can’t complain about the price as they willfully paid it. What message does that send to Vail?
For a different reason I’m choosing not to buy an epic pass next year because of the business practices solely. I wanted a refund on my season pass and they wanted so much personal information like doctors notes, dates, really personal info to just get a refund bro. Screw that
That’s odd. They required proof of injury or something to give you the return??
@ exactly, signed by a real doctor. They had an upload pdf option. They wanted to know when the exact date I got laid off.
We skied Whistler on the 28th of December last year. I resolved to never go back. The volume of people in line and on the runs, the eye-watering costs and the global elite vibe aren't for me or my extended family. Whistler was heading out of reach for locals and Vail put the final nails in the coffin. There are so many better options in beautiful BC.
Vail doesn’t technically have anything to do with Private Equity because Vail is a public company.
I know I know. But it made for a better title lol
I skied Big Sky for many years. Never a lift line, near empty trials. Beautiful skiing. I Haven't been there for a long time. Does anyone know what its like now?
……. fingers crossed….
May not have impacted the revenue stream too much as people plan trips and buy tickets/lodging months in advance so they are forced to go - hence why we are still seeing crazy lift lines. But if this continues, I can guarantee people will not be rebooking their trips for next season. Plus, I believe with the social media attention people are more cognizant of Vail's practices and will avoid even when lifts open back up. Appreciate the unbiased review
Thanks for the comment! I agree - revenue won’t be impacted this year as trips are booked, but I feel this will leave a bad taste in a lot of people’s mouths and make them choose differently moving forward.
I grew up in a ski town and after I graduated from highschool I would skip trying to ski during the holiday break and on weekends. Open slopes and short mid week lift lines are awesome. Waiting in line is no fun.
Private equity mindset destroys everything.
What examples have you seen in your own life?
@Galbra1th Payday loans and title loans are destroying the poor across America, yet they keep us convinced it's each other with manufactured race wars.
Hello sir
I have a question so I thought I can ask you about it so generally private equity firm acquire business right in the same way can you acquire a private equity firm like completely acquire the ownership of the private equity firm
I guess I am in the minority. I only ski Monday-Thursday and very rarely do I ever wait longer than a few minutes in any line at Park City. Holidays are ALWAYS going to be insanely crowded, at any resort. The epic local pass is a great bargain. We love park city, just don’t ski when the crowds arrive.
I hope the corporate ski situation improves....so that the Backcountry doesn't get more congested.
Has it been bad?
Same same moutain biking.
Whistler was like $300 for 3 days in 2019.
In 2018 I paid €250 for Portes Soleil for the *season* and that includes all lifts in that part of France and Switzerland. Like 10 or so resorts.
Yeah feel like mountain biking is just the skiing of the summer for these places. I hope you were able to enjoy it!
I loved it when I was a kid to my early 20s until I left Utah in 2004. I came back in 2022 and I quickly learned that this has taken the joy out of snowboarding. 2034 will be a nightmare due to Winter Games if we already have this many people here.
Argh yes it’s most likely only going to become more popular as people try to find ways to disconnect from their phones..
The confluence of the money system (debt as money, causing continuous inflation) plus unparalleled greed.
Probably true
Back in the 70s my family of 8 got season passes at little Geneva Basin for $125.00. Those days and Geneva Basin are long gone.
That’s wild
They got Park City because someone forgot to renew the lease, I think by a few hours or a day and Vail jumped in and got the lease. To me this seems very fishy.
As insane as the price of skiing has become, there seems to be absolutely no shortage of people willing to pay it. In fact that number continues to grow. As long as that’s true, I don’t see anything changing for the better.
I think unfortunately you’re right
I gave up on it when snow started getting scarce in California. It's to ridiculous at 250 plus for lift tickets. I here it's still cheap in Europe.
I have used an Epic pass unlimited for years now. I use it at least once in Europe and once in Canada. I ski a lot more than when I had to scrounge for vouchers and join ski clubs. It is tough to buy a pass 8-10 months before I will use it but I got used to it. If someone can’t afford the price of a pass the solution is to ski at smaller resorts and probably ski a weekend or two each year. Skiing over 10 days a year as a family is always going to be expensive. It was 20 years ago, everything is expensive in the USA.
The lift lines are crazy. I would skip going there until the mountain opens more trails. When this happens it is time to use skin and go uphill where it is allowed. The workers need better pay, I get it but THATS PRECISELY WHAT FUELS INFLATION.
Valid points
Imagine! For hardly more than the price of a single day ticket at Vail, you can buy a season ticket valid at 2 dozens Swiss ski resorts... several of them offering better skiing than Vail!
Oh boy 😂
@@Galbra1th Yes! The Magic Pass is a season pass costing CHF 399 (ca. $445), and valid in 70 Swiss resorts (not 2 dozens..I checked), including world-renowned Gstaad (as of 5.1.25, though) or Saas Fee, plus a few French and a couple of Italian ones!
So, even if you come to Switzerland for only a week, it stays a great deal!
It used to be accepted at the huge Crans- Montana ski area, unit the lifts there were bought by... Vail resorts, Inc... which.. you guessed right... pulled out of the deal!
Skiing in the U.S. is incredibly expensive. Spending a week there as a family of five feels like taking out a mortgage. I’ve switched to European resorts, primarily in Switzerland and Italy.
Yep. Not to mention that the general ambiance is better.
@ delicious food is everywhere in Europe.
Private equity does tend to ruin everything it touches but the ski resorts historicaly has paid the majority of it's staff in lift access not money.
$23 per hour is also not a living wage anyplace around Park City
Yeah I don’t think anyone should go into being ski patrol thinking that it’ll be a career that leads to long term financial security or wealth lol
Its cause we haven't built a new resort in over 40 years, and 10 million new people started skiing in the last 10 years
That’s a solid point
We need more ski areas in Washington, but the Forest Service makes that very difficult.
With lines like that you probably couldn’t get more than four runs per day, meaning each run cost almost $90!!!
Is it worth $90 a run? 👀🥶
@ I guess it depends on how much money you have!😂
Vail will likely raise prices and only cater to the super rich! Lowes did this by raising prices but selling less proved more profitable!
Just buy inline skates and save your money!
Makes sense. I’m sure they (and plenty of their customers) would have no problem charging 2x what it currently costs for a reasonable lines..
This has been a long time coming. It started with the federal governments crack down on allowing ski areas from opening at all. Making the pool small, with a growing population. Today it is near impossible to open a new facility on federal land. Which allows one large fish to dominate the fish tank so to speak. I love skiing, but more and more I hate the process, and the ever increasing prices. It really has become for me a not enough juice for the squeeze scenario.
Yeah I don’t understand that.. Governments need to find ways to de-regulate and allow for more development
I continue to feel despondent over this model of running ski resorts. Driving for higher profits leads to these issues:
1. more advanced equipment to attract customers costs $$, so increase prices
2. If that doesn’t work, reduce operating costs (mostly salaries of workers)
3. Development to drove up real estate, which drives out local workers and lower-income families.
Not sure the solution now; the answer for any private owner is to stay private, don’t give in! Ski resorts survived and thrived for decades without high speed lifts, massive shopping areas, gondolas, etc. (snow-making is arguably necessary in areas, so that investment remains priority IMO).
Some fantastic ski areas have the humblest lodges; families all getting on gear/hanging out on folding tables, gear everywhere, meals are either chili or pizza or fries, lol. I know that’s history for most places but the current trends are ridiculous and unnecessary. They only occur because investors drive for more profit but I’d say it doesn’t truly improve the skiing or resort. Ppl loved skiing when it was 2-person slow lifts, they’ll still love it with 2-person slow lifts.
Where we go, it was recently bought and thankfully not much has changed but I’m very worried. The high-speed lifts ARE nice but the best runs are off the slow-speed lifts. I don’t ride terrain parks so that doesn’t matter for me.
I don’t know what will happen if Vail fails. I kinda want them too, but not sure who would pick up each mountain. Maybe some co-ops of locals at each area. But I do think Vail has to fail and Epic passes do too.
I’ve never thought about it that way before. Great comment.
The actual dynamics in such market declines have little to do with greed. The price which maximizes profit is rarely the highest price. As demand drops and costs increase, operators have little choice but to recover fixed costs on lower volume thru price increases, which in turn cause sales to drop even further. That is a self-reinforcing decline, aka a “death spiral.”
Private equity has ruined everything. But also the mass corporatization of everything in the US. And then there is the overcrowding, population boom, too many rich folks moving to mountain towns, etc. Skiing & snowboarding was so much better in Utah 10-15 years ago. There were still many privately owned resorts and you could get discount passes at local grocery stores and gear outfitters. The cost to ride now is prohibitive for many, so you get a mountain that is overcrowded by a bunch of wealthy twits posing for Instagram shots. I grew up skiing as a kid in Utah and even then a $10 lift ticket was a struggle. Switched to snowboarding in the 90s and prices were ~$20. Next decade it was $60. It's sad that the younger generation has been priced out of an activity that is right in their back yard.
I’ve been a pass holder since 2003 at Kirkwood, this is the first year we elected to not buy season passes 21 years, Kirkwood was bought by Vail in 2012 claimed they were going to make updates to the mountain, they instead decommissioned a relatively new lift. The have continued to let the property decline, everything just looks worn out now especially the main lodge, the old lodge has not received hardly any improvements and looks like it did back in the 1973-74, there is an area near the cafeteria and condo complex that still has rebar sticking out of the ground, and Timber Creek and learn to ski area is still in a temporary building/tent. 13 years no improvements, excessive wind holds for even lower lifts that don’t service the top of the mountain have left me questioning why am I even coming here anymore. Heavenly Valley is also looking worn down, granted some improvements have been made there, it’s not anything like it use to be to especially the food prices.
Argh sorry to hear that! I hope you still have some fond memories from the last 21 years!
Having lived in Utah for my whole life and skied for over 50 years I agree that the corporations are ruining the ski experience. Vails motto is "We are not happy until you are not happy". You are correct on almost everything you covered until you started to spout the climate BS. I have seen it drier than it is now and two years ago I had snow up to the eves of my house. Also when you say the snow waste water you need to get your facts straight. The resorts usualy have storage basins that they pump water out of up the mountain, snow melts, water runs downhill into the basins. At Deer Valley they help offset the water shortfall to Park City in the summer. So short of a small amout of evaporation it is pretty much a closed loop on water. The energy to pump the water is another matter. So if you belive the Climate C02 line, your sking lifestyle is killing your sport, how you going to viture signal your way out of that one?
I appreciate the comment. To be clear, I wasn’t insinuating that climate change is what has resulted in this increase in price or lack of runs. I more so just meant that potential change in climate is an existential threat to the ski mountains. Whether you believe in climate change or not, I think that is a fair comment to make. I agree that a lot of the times these things get blown way out of proportion. I just meant that shorter ski seasons can definitely impact the business model of these companies!
I can fly 11hrs direct to Zurich Switzerland, train to Crans Montana, stay and ski 5 days for about $2200. Much better skiing and overall cheaper than US.
I was an avid skier for many years starting about 1970. in those days you can get an all-day lift ticket for 10 bucks. I've given up skiing because of the cost. I now go snowmobiling and have a good time.
I can go snowmobiling all day and spend less than $50 in gas for the snowmobile. One can pick up a used snowmobile for a reasonable price and have a good time with it.
Sounds like a blast!
From Vail's own mission statement: Create the experience of a lifetime!
😂😂😂😂😂
Never specified if it’s a good or bad experience they’re creating 😂
dude you nailed it ! Spot on.
Thanks for the support!
Vail resorts seems to ruin it for everyone. Went to Stowe last year for 3 days with my 2 kids and it was over $1000 a day! Never again. No epic pass for me.
Ugh. Hopefully your kids appreciated it at least!
Haven’t watched the video yet but I’m gonna go out on a limb and say….yes, private equity ruined skiing
lol quite the assumption
$350 for a single day lift ticket? That is insane! I was thinking $60 for a daypass was starting to be a little excessive where i live...
Sheesh. Where are you able to get $60?
@@Galbra1th Norway. And that is a expensive country in general.
Isn’t the first time Vail has had staffing issues, checkout what happened to Stevens pass in Washington a few years ago. Private big corp trying to rake in $$$ is not the way for happy skiing customers, needs to be local ownership or 501c3 (pretty much required for very small mountains now days to stay open). Local ownership allows them to keep costs down for customers, run programs for the local communities and reach out to those communities for volunteers.
I'm a lifelong skier and I don't even know when I'll be able to go skiing again. I WILL NOT pay those prices for one day of skiing. Sorry, but I have better things to spend money on, than $300-$400 for 8 hrs of skiing. It's gross and disgusting
That’s valid
I was in park city during this time…the lift lines were awful (expected due to timing), the runs were mostly just sketchy because of the lack of open terrain and the crowds…just unsafe all around…I love snowboarding as much as anyone can but I couldn’t deal with it. Went to Brighton for a few days and then left Utah a few days early and hit keystone and beaver creek in CO. I’m soured on park city and vail resorts…if their military pass wasn’t so cheap I’d probably never go back
What’s the price on the military pass? Were the lines better in CO?
@ I get the veteran pass as soon as they go on sale for around $500 (ikon has one too but it’s around $800). The two days in Keystone and Beaver Creek saved my trip, man. I never waited more than 5 minutes, and those were at the lifts near the base.
This was my second attempt at Park City and both trips were a disaster, which sucks because the mountain/terrain is great. I doubt I’ll go back again
@justAmotoDude happy to hear it!