Milling and drilling a Cummins 5.9 cylinder head for an aftermarket manifold and milling and machining the head for fire rings to hold the boost and power.
You just saved me a lot of time and money. I'm building a moderately high performance Cummins 12 valve for highway use. I was thinking of o-ringing the head, but now that I've seen this I see no need.
"hurricanes and heavy rains". I know what you mean. Been a rough spring here in Kentucky to be doing anything outside let alone build a barn. Oh well, like you said, gives you time to make some barn money. Keep up the great work Brian.
I love the engine work you do Brian, in fact I enjoy all of the mechanical work you machine so thank you for sharing this with us. I hope the weather settles down soon and you can put the Barn Shop money to use! :D Have a nice Sunday, Aloha...Chuck
Color me green with mill envy. What won't that Cincinnatti thing do? Of course, you work on very big stuff, you need big equiiipment. Since I work in very small scale it is really fun to watch big boys at work. And I learn something too. Thanks for the video, and may your shop prosper.
Very interesting work you do (and very accurate). I would have liked to have seen how you located the first groove for the rings. That must also be critical to get them right. I understand the "barn money" jobs, the money from which keeps the project on track and provides another stack of materials you can make disappear. Thanks Brian. Another cool video.
+Jim Milne I have done this job many times and I have the info written in my folder of jobs. There is a dowel hole in the head which locates it. I know the bore center location of that cylinder from that dowel hole. I center up on that dowel hole then move over to bore center and cut, then each next hole is just moving the table the bore separation distance.
bcbloc02 I know this is an old comment but how did you find the bore location based off of the dowel pins the first time you ever had to do this? In other words how would you accurately find the bore center location based off of the dowel pins if all you had to go off of was just the cylinder head lying in front of you?
See, Bailey made sure no one stole the couch while you were working! Nice job on the head, I cringed when I saw the cutter moving close to the pipe plug sticking out! I agree with you about the fire rings should have a radiused groove although there are guys I know who insist a square groove is best completely ignoring that sharp corners instigate cracks.
Brian, amongst all the things you have going on, which I think impressive, take some time now and again to get a little video of these pulling tractors you work on. I'm sure a BBloc logo sticker would look great on some of those green tractors.
+dlstanf2 I don't attend any events except the ones that I have to work, because I just don't have time. The ones I work means I can't video, and also lots of guys don't want their competitiors to know who is doing there work for fear they will loose that competitive edge.
cool to see to see rings being cut, i knew quite a few who had it done on the Porsche 944T motors so they could crank the boost up. most of them found out what happens when you effectively bypass the "fuse" that the head gasket provides. push it hard enough and something else will let go, usually the bottom end. small aluminium head and blocks were definitely not built as strong as diesel components. thanks for the video
+Phil's Projects When you find the next week link you just replace that too. :-) Problem with these motors is at a certain point you start splitting blocks from the pressure, then it is deck plate, sleeve and girdle time, then jeep going making power. :-)
+bcbloc02 the 944 engine blocks has aluminium cylinders, with a coating, Nikasil i believe, it didnt take huge turbo pressure to get the top of the cylinder to move under high loads.hence wht people started putting O rings in. yep my 4 con rods looked like a S when the signal line to the waste gate split and i got 50+ lbs of unwanted boost.
+bcbloc02 The late George Daniels, master watchmaker, once remarked that "the only difference between restoring a Bentley and restoring a watch is the size of hammer you use." If you ever want to go to small stuff, look up George Daniels.
Very nice Brian. Good save on fixing the previous milling job. Did you mill the face of that intake manifold to match, or was it "good enough"? It didn't look quite flat to me, but it is hard to tell in a quick video shot, so I'm likely wrong on that.
+l wilton The go pro makes nothing look flat, I was not requested to do anything to the manifold and it has been on another engine before so I assume it sealed, didn't appear warped or out of flat when I test bolted it on.
@@barkleygentry2504 He would sure appreciate that! He used to be able to jump and take a frisbee 6+ feet in the air. Now he does good to make it up and down the stairs. I love that old dog. He for sure has been a good one.
Brian, wouldn't it be easier to paint as you go, than have to set everything up again. Of course around here barn painters can do the job cheaper than you can purchase materials.
+Robert Klein Guessing this is in the wrong video but if you are talking about painting the barn the wood needs to dry out good before painting so it needs to be up a month or two to stabilize before that is done.
In my experience fire rings won't last 200,000miles like a stock head gasket can. I have seen a bunch of fire rings that have broken at around the 60,000mile mark. They literally get brittle and crack in half. They don't take repetitive heat cycles over a long time very well. If you want to run enough power to where you have to have fire rings to hold then you don't have much choice. If you only plan to be in the 400-500rwhp range I think you can get by better with just studs and a MLS but this of course means your block and head have to be machined....... Nothing is ever easy. lol
@@bcbloc02 10/4 . I thank you so much for info. That made up my mind. I won't be using fire rings for my application. I appreciate the fast ansewer. Be well.
Hi Brian Are the customer taking care of the valveseat or is this dun by you also? That is a big cutter, how many insert on that one? thanks for maskining Hans
Any reason you milled off the top of the tapered gallery plugs instead of just tapping the holes deeper thus keeping the ability to remove them and clean the galleries when needed? Do we get to see the beast in action when it's bolted back together? Cheers Eric
+midgoog2 The plugs are under the manifold so there is no access when it is on, and they are plugs for sensors which the engine no longer has so there is no need to access them anyway.
+Randy Richard Yes it is getting oversized valves, port and polish and a 5angle grind but somebody else is doing that work to it. I don't have the tooling for doing valve work.
I know what the bore centers are from the block and where they locate related to the dowl pin holes in the head so I can pin locate those and then just use the DRO to move to each bore center for grooving.
Brian, did the exact same thing on an old 12 valve (except I cut the old air box off)! One thing I noticed is that you milled intake side in farther then I did. I left more material to provide better air flow between cylinder runners (intake ports), but the main reason was to provide gasket surface for rocker covers! What are they planning on doing on rocker covers, just overlap on new intake plate?
+Fred Newman i didn't mill but maybe .002 below where somebody else already had. I would have preferred to left it longer myself. The gasket edge is just barely still on the head. but I made the top of the manifold plate even with the top of the head to add some surface back.
awesome.. thanks for replying, it seems people don't have time to answer any questions.so thank you. so if I couldn't find someone to bum machine time from or any mentorship what could I buy cheap to do my own projects or learn on? grizzly mini lathe or mill any good? what would be a good first home machine?
I have never had any personal experience with the little home shop stuff so I can not advise. You may talk to James Green (EagleDustoff37) maybe he can tell you about his experience with that stuff.
I can tell you from my own foolish experience....stay away (don't waste your money) on any mini-lathe or mill. I bought a 7x16 lathe and it's too light to do much I want to do. So I bought a 13x40 Grizzly and am very happy with it. However if you want to try one, I would sell mine. It's only 2 months old and I have worked all the bugs out of it.
+Perius I have done this job many times and I have the info written in my folder of jobs. There is a dowl hole in the head which locates it. I know the bore center location of that cylinder from that dowl hole. I center up on that dowl hole then move over to bore center and cut, then each next hole is just moving the table the bore seperation distance.
Because of the large diameter of the head and its mounted scale I can position the head within less than a half thou over 12inches. It is more square than my table is flat so it is plenty good for the job. I changed the way I do this job to using the horizontal for better accuracy, less than .001" of flat over 36inches.
hey there. I'm new to machining and am always asking questions when I see things I'm interested in learn do eventually. I am starting a precision machining and CNC course in January and after I would like to do things to make money on in my small garage. is that machine made for just doing heads? what machine is it? what services do you offer that a new machinist could make money on? I am trying to put together a small list of machining jobs I could do once I'm training in my garage. Also,what milling machine would you suggest a broke,new machinist buy to put in a 15x12 garage? I see alot of Bridgeport machines on Craigslist. could I do alot of jobs in this one machine? and should I invest in a small lathe? any suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I am looking to people on RUclips for advice for now.
Lots of questions I will see if i can get them . This machine is A Cincinnati #4 Horizontal milling machine, it is not designed just for doing cylinder heads it is a very large and rigid machine limited mostly by what tooling you have and what you can fit in it. It weighs between 14000-16000lb and is not typical garage shop gear. With a 25hp motor you need a very large electrical service to feed it. Most of what I do is probably not good for beginner machinist as it is high risk work since you can easily scrap a customers $5000+ dollar part with a mistake and then what do you do?? Answer is you eat it, then how many more jobs do you have to do just to cover that one?? Most Bridgeports are clapped out garbage and honestly for what people want for them you would be better off to spend twice the money and buy a new Sharp. well seasoned machinists can work with a worn machine and get good results a new machinist won't know the tricks or the tendencies of various operations well enough to not be wasting tons of time and parts trying to figure out why when you move the table .005 it cuts .007. My lathe has been my #1 money maker for my shop and a worn lathe is easier to work with than a worn mill and seems to be more sympathetic to mistakes so it is a good place to learn. The machines are only the tip on the iceburg you will have to spend 3-4 times as much on tooling to do the work. My advice find a local mentor that can help you with the work and maybe you can bum the use of some machines when you need to do an operation you don't have the equipment for and grown from there.
+esoomreltna Check the comments I have answered this in detail twice, personally I love reading the comments sometimes I learn more from them than the videos. :-)
+Doug Bourdo Not so much, some engines run in the 300lb range, although not so common anymore, as technology has allowed engines to make the same power with 200lbs.
Depends on what you are doing with it but .020 is normally the max before you will have piston clearance problems. If you have any kind of aftermarket cam maybe none or you might have valve clearance problems. It is too broad a question to really answer as everything has to fit together as a system.
Ryan Tanksley Not advisable to deck plate without also sleeving as your rings would be running over the part line of the block and the plate and that would be very bad for the rings. Also you take that much off thetop of the block and you will loose a ton of strength in your deck and will loose a bunch of thread engagement on your head studs and likely have sealing problems.
@6.20 personnally Im tired of this.. specify a ra and get it to the correct ra for the gasket and engine used.. DONT just say "it's got to have some bite"..
maybe they have,sorry didnt think of that, yes true..I'm just a little grumpy at the Local machinists that ALWAYS seem to know BETTER than all the companies that manufactures the stuff. I've heard that exakt thing beeing said so many times instead of just saying, "yep, ive measured roughness average according to specs.", (they neeeever do here)..
I grew up in Massachusetts and remember in early 70's watching machinists working on those machines. True genius. Great job
Cutting iron is fun.
You get the greatest projects with those pulling tractors.
Thanks for the fun.
John
+John Bazaar I like the smell of fresh cut iron. :-)
+bcbloc02
Me too. :)
You just saved me a lot of time and money. I'm building a moderately high performance Cummins 12 valve for highway use. I was thinking of o-ringing the head, but now that I've seen this I see no need.
Well stated about radius groove is safer than a square groove, and yet a many guys still prefer the square for failure. Keep up the good work too.
Started my machinists apprenticeship in a automotive shop, bringing back memories!
Very nice job Brian. Good to see some more machining from you. regards from the UK
"hurricanes and heavy rains". I know what you mean. Been a rough spring here in Kentucky to be doing anything outside let alone build a barn. Oh well, like you said, gives you time to make some barn money. Keep up the great work Brian.
I love the engine work you do Brian, in fact I enjoy all of the mechanical work you machine so thank you for sharing this with us. I hope the weather settles down soon and you can put the Barn Shop money to use! :D
Have a nice Sunday, Aloha...Chuck
+Knolltop Farms Baily really wants his dog house remodel completed as well. :-) Glad you enjoy and thanks for the always nice comments Chuck.
Nice machines, nice work! - bringin` on back the good times...
Color me green with mill envy. What won't that Cincinnatti thing do? Of course, you work on very big stuff, you need big equiiipment. Since I work in very small scale it is really fun to watch big boys at work. And I learn something too. Thanks for the video, and may your shop prosper.
+Juan Rivero Wait till you get to see all the things the G&L mill can do!
Waiting....
Very interesting work you do (and very accurate). I would have liked to have seen how you located the first groove for the rings. That must also be critical to get them right. I understand the "barn money" jobs, the money from which keeps the project on track and provides another stack of materials you can make disappear. Thanks Brian. Another cool video.
+Jim Milne I have done this job many times and I have the info written in my folder
of jobs. There is a dowel hole in the head which locates it. I know the
bore center location of that cylinder from that dowel hole. I center up
on that dowel hole then move over to bore center and cut, then each next
hole is just moving the table the bore separation distance.
bcbloc02 I know this is an old comment but how did you find the bore location based off of the dowel pins the first time you ever had to do this? In other words how would you accurately find the bore center location based off of the dowel pins if all you had to go off of was just the cylinder head lying in front of you?
See, Bailey made sure no one stole the couch while you were working! Nice job on the head, I cringed when I saw the cutter moving close to the pipe plug sticking out! I agree with you about the fire rings should have a radiused groove although there are guys I know who insist a square groove is best completely ignoring that sharp corners instigate cracks.
80-90lbs boost, Dang! I don't think I will be putting that in my B-series any time soon. Neat video thanks!
Enjoyed Brian.....thanks for showing
The old machine coped really well.
Brian, amongst all the things you have going on, which I think impressive, take some time now and again to get a little video of these pulling tractors you work on. I'm sure a BBloc logo sticker would look great on some of those green tractors.
+dlstanf2 I don't attend any events except the ones that I have to work, because I just don't have time. The ones I work means I can't video, and also lots of guys don't want their competitiors to know who is doing there work for fear they will loose that competitive edge.
Fine job Brian.
nice job Brian
Good work man , Should hold the compression way better now !
I'd love to see the end results of your machining. Maybe a tractor pull or whatever the parts go into.
Gorgeous!
Thank you! 😊
Good to see you making "head"way on it Brian.. :-)
+CompEdgeX He he he :-)
Probably a lot to ask , but would love to see tractor this goes into. Thx for another great vid.
+shade38211 It is for a drag truck I believe. Doubt I will be at the track but maybe they can send some video I can upload sometime.
+shade38211 It is for a drag truck I believe. Doubt I will be at the track but maybe they can send some video I can upload sometime.
cool to see to see rings being cut, i knew quite a few who had it done on the Porsche 944T motors so they could crank the boost up. most of them found out what happens when you effectively bypass the "fuse" that the head gasket provides. push it hard enough and something else will let go, usually the bottom end. small aluminium head and blocks were definitely not built as strong as diesel components.
thanks for the video
+Phil's Projects When you find the next week link you just replace that too. :-) Problem with these motors is at a certain point you start splitting blocks from the pressure, then it is deck plate, sleeve and girdle time, then jeep going making power. :-)
+bcbloc02 the 944 engine blocks has aluminium cylinders, with a coating, Nikasil i believe, it didnt take huge turbo pressure to get the top of the cylinder to move under high loads.hence wht people started putting O rings in.
yep my 4 con rods looked like a S when the signal line to the waste gate split and i got 50+ lbs of unwanted boost.
Phil's Projects
Well that is one way to decompress it!
yep, once the head lifted and the radiator blew open the compression went down drastically
not sure, bill, all i did was pass 911's on the track, never looked, lol
Like a boss! Well done sir
Grat job👍
Nice video
Haven't done much machining on big engine blocks, interesting to see ho you get it done, and get fine results... ;)
+pierre beaudry It is a bit different than watch making. :-)
+bcbloc02 The late George Daniels, master watchmaker, once remarked that "the only difference between restoring a Bentley and restoring a watch is the size of hammer you use." If you ever want to go to small stuff, look up George Daniels.
Juan Rivero
I like the big hammers, I will leave watchmaking to somebody else. :-)
We will have to start calling you the head machinist.
+Richard Schmidtendorff Just did another one today.
nice
Looks good.
Very nice Brian. Good save on fixing the previous milling job.
Did you mill the face of that intake manifold to match, or was it "good enough"? It didn't look quite flat to me, but it is hard to tell in a quick video shot, so I'm likely wrong on that.
+l wilton The go pro makes nothing look flat, I was not requested to do anything to the manifold and it has been on another engine before so I assume it sealed, didn't appear warped or out of flat when I test bolted it on.
Did you mill face his set screw plug off 2:35
Is that Bailey at a younger age? Being the Boss even back then!
Yes Baily has been boss for over 15 years. He used to be much more hands on.
@@bcbloc02 Good dogs are hard to find. If you could put him in a wayback machine and make him young again...
@@barkleygentry2504 He would sure appreciate that! He used to be able to jump and take a frisbee 6+ feet in the air. Now he does good to make it up and down the stairs. I love that old dog. He for sure has been a good one.
Nice fun job . Those clamps are nice . But I didn't catch what they are called ? We had 3.5" of rain last night maybe this will stop the wind !
+THE IRONWORKER They are Carver brand mill vise clamps from the UK.
Brian, wouldn't it be easier to paint as you go, than have to set everything up again. Of course around here barn painters can do the job cheaper than you can purchase materials.
+Robert Klein Guessing this is in the wrong video but if you are talking about painting the barn the wood needs to dry out good before painting so it needs to be up a month or two to stabilize before that is done.
Bravo !!!
Hey Brian. Did I hear you say you don't recommend fire rings on a daily driver because they will were out fast??. Thanks. Looking foward to your reply
In my experience fire rings won't last 200,000miles like a stock head gasket can. I have seen a bunch of fire rings that have broken at around the 60,000mile mark. They literally get brittle and crack in half. They don't take repetitive heat cycles over a long time very well. If you want to run enough power to where you have to have fire rings to hold then you don't have much choice. If you only plan to be in the 400-500rwhp range I think you can get by better with just studs and a MLS but this of course means your block and head have to be machined....... Nothing is ever easy. lol
@@bcbloc02 10/4 . I thank you so much for info. That made up my mind. I won't be using fire rings for my application. I appreciate the fast ansewer. Be well.
Hi Brian
Are the customer taking care of the valveseat or is this dun by you also?
That is a big cutter, how many insert on that one?
thanks for maskining
Hans
+Hans O Ronnback Somebody else is doing the porting and valves on this one. Best I recall that is a 8" 16 tooth mill.
Any reason you milled off the top of the tapered gallery plugs instead of just tapping the holes deeper thus keeping the ability to remove them and clean the galleries when needed?
Do we get to see the beast in action when it's bolted back together?
Cheers Eric
+midgoog2 The plugs are under the manifold so there is no access when it is on, and they are plugs for sensors which the engine no longer has so there is no need to access them anyway.
Nice job on the head. Still needs a valve grind?
+Randy Richard Yes it is getting oversized valves, port and polish and a 5angle grind but somebody else is doing that work to it. I don't have the tooling for doing valve work.
+bcbloc02 I was going to ask the same thing, some of those valves looked kinda (ok - really) rough for a race engine!
Where i can do that?
How do you clock up on the centre of each cylinder before cutting the fire ring groves? I guess you know the numbers from measuring the block...?
I know what the bore centers are from the block and where they locate related to the dowl pin holes in the head so I can pin locate those and then just use the DRO to move to each bore center for grooving.
Brian, did the exact same thing on an old 12 valve (except I cut the old air box off)! One thing I noticed is that you milled intake side in farther then I did. I left more material to provide better air flow between cylinder runners (intake ports), but the main reason was to provide gasket surface for rocker covers! What are they planning on doing on rocker covers, just overlap on new intake plate?
+Fred Newman i didn't mill but maybe .002 below where somebody else already had. I would have preferred to left it longer myself. The gasket edge is just barely still on the head. but I made the top of the manifold plate even with the top of the head to add some surface back.
awesome.. thanks for replying, it seems people don't have time to answer any questions.so thank you. so if I couldn't find someone to bum machine time from or any mentorship what could I buy cheap to do my own projects or learn on? grizzly mini lathe or mill any good? what would be a good first home machine?
I have never had any personal experience with the little home shop stuff so I can not advise. You may talk to James Green (EagleDustoff37) maybe he can tell you about his experience with that stuff.
I can tell you from my own foolish experience....stay away (don't waste your money) on any mini-lathe or mill. I bought a 7x16 lathe and it's too light to do much I want to do. So I bought a 13x40 Grizzly and am very happy with it. However if you want to try one, I would sell mine. It's only 2 months old and I have worked all the bugs out of it.
nice! how much are you asking for it?
Matthew Allard contact me at larrytech54@gmail.com or facebook. I don't want to wreck Bryan's page.
Great vid, just one question.
How did you find the centre of the fire ring groove? Measured/marked off the gasket?
+Perius I have done this job many times and I have the info written in my folder of jobs. There is a dowl hole in the head which locates it. I know the bore center location of that cylinder from that dowl hole. I center up on that dowl hole then move over to bore center and cut, then each next hole is just moving the table the bore seperation distance.
How do you tram the vertical head with the work piece on the table? Or did it come off between operations?
Because of the large diameter of the head and its mounted scale I can position the head within less than a half thou over 12inches. It is more square than my table is flat so it is plenty good for the job. I changed the way I do this job to using the horizontal for better accuracy, less than .001" of flat over 36inches.
Thanks!
hey there. I'm new to machining and am always asking questions when I see things I'm interested in learn do eventually. I am starting a precision machining and CNC course in January and after I would like to do things to make money on in my small garage. is that machine made for just doing heads? what machine is it? what services do you offer that a new machinist could make money on? I am trying to put together a small list of machining jobs I could do once I'm training in my garage. Also,what milling machine would you suggest a broke,new machinist buy to put in a 15x12 garage? I see alot of Bridgeport machines on Craigslist. could I do alot of jobs in this one machine? and should I invest in a small lathe? any suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I am looking to people on RUclips for advice for now.
Lots of questions I will see if i can get them . This machine is A Cincinnati #4 Horizontal milling machine, it is not designed just for doing cylinder heads it is a very large and rigid machine limited mostly by what tooling you have and what you can fit in it. It weighs between 14000-16000lb and is not typical garage shop gear. With a 25hp motor you need a very large electrical service to feed it. Most of what I do is probably not good for beginner machinist as it is high risk work since you can easily scrap a customers $5000+ dollar part with a mistake and then what do you do?? Answer is you eat it, then how many more jobs do you have to do just to cover that one?? Most Bridgeports are clapped out garbage and honestly for what people want for them you would be better off to spend twice the money and buy a new Sharp. well seasoned machinists can work with a worn machine and get good results a new machinist won't know the tricks or the tendencies of various operations well enough to not be wasting tons of time and parts trying to figure out why when you move the table .005 it cuts .007. My lathe has been my #1 money maker for my shop and a worn lathe is easier to work with than a worn mill and seems to be more sympathetic to mistakes so it is a good place to learn. The machines are only the tip on the iceburg you will have to spend 3-4 times as much on tooling to do the work. My advice find a local mentor that can help you with the work and maybe you can bum the use of some machines when you need to do an operation you don't have the equipment for and grown from there.
Do you have to cut the fire rings when ever you mil the surface?
Yes unless you can get thinner fire rings and gasket to make up for what you removed.
to be 1000 for that long is very good .
Brian, How did you locate center for the ring grooves? Just curious abotu what the reference was.
Eric
+esoomreltna Check the comments I have answered this in detail twice, personally I love reading the comments sometimes I learn more from them than the videos. :-)
80 to 90 lbs. boost !!??!!?? Holy Ballz.
+Doug Bourdo Not so much, some engines run in the 300lb range, although not so common anymore, as technology has allowed engines to make the same power with 200lbs.
Where do you find the bore center for the rings?
I locate off the head dowel pins and then use my DRO to locate the centers correctly from there.
Was that gasket on upside down?
Reckon that depends on your perspective.
how much can you mill down a 6.7 cummins block
Depends on what you are doing with it but .020 is normally the max before you will have piston clearance problems. If you have any kind of aftermarket cam maybe none or you might have valve clearance problems. It is too broad a question to really answer as everything has to fit together as a system.
bcbloc02 what if i took off an inch and put on a 1" deck plate
Ryan Tanksley
Not advisable to deck plate without also sleeving as your rings would be running over the part line of the block and the plate and that would be very bad for the rings. Also you take that much off thetop of the block and you will loose a ton of strength in your deck and will loose a bunch of thread engagement on your head studs and likely have sealing problems.
hi great job were do i send my head to your shop address
Drop it by 102 taylorsville Rd, Shelbyville, Ky 40065 and I will get it taken care of for you. :-)
For the trouble that sure is a poor manifold design.
Contact info so you can do my Cummins head p
email me bcbloc02 at yahoo
@6.20 personnally Im tired of this.. specify a ra and get it to the correct ra for the gasket and engine used.. DONT just say "it's got to have some bite"..
Why does he need to specify a range? Maybe that's a secret between him and the engine builder over the competition.
maybe they have,sorry didnt think of that, yes true..I'm just a little grumpy at the Local machinists that ALWAYS seem to know BETTER than all the companies that manufactures the stuff. I've heard that exakt thing beeing said so many times instead of just saying, "yep, ive measured roughness average according to specs.", (they neeeever do here)..