Banned Suspension: FRIC!
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- Опубликовано: 15 мар 2021
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There have been plenty of suspension innovations across the years and FRIC is one of them - banned at the end of 2014. But what was it, why was it so clever and why was it banned?
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It's depressing to think of all the innovation from F1 we could have had that the world will never benefit from because it all gets banned a year or two into its development. It's a shame that they don't revisit past decisions. For example back in the early 90's active suspension could be considered an unfair advantage but these days there is no valid reason to ban it anymore. All teams could implement it easily. Same for ground effect, powertrains (new electric systems). F1 is simultaneously the most advanced motorsport and a dinosaur.
FRIC isn't new, the Citroen DS19 had it all the way back in 1957...
I think there are one or two general production carts that use this suspension. I wonder why more went made.
FIA: F1 will be the pinnacle of automotive ingenuity and technology
F1 teams: [innovate technology]
FIA: no not like that
FIA is committed in a perennial struggle to ensure F1 cars to remain cars, and that means banning a lot of things that makes sense only on a F1 track. So downforce is allowed, but a suspension whose entire goal was to take advantage of the kind of downforce that only a F1 car has, is not.
@@neutronalchemist3241 But that kind of suspension could easily be adapted to an everyday car, or truck of varying types. F1 should be moderately unrestricted. Imagine the technology we could gain for our everyday cars if they were allowed to push just a little more. Look what we have already gained from F1 innovations
@@DaysofKnight It's the contrary actually. F1 technology can be transferred to normal cars only as long as a certain device that makes sense ony in a F1 track (think for example of the Brabham BT46 "fan car") doesn't become dominant. When the performances af the cars depend almost entirely on that particular device, every effort to develop things that makes sense on a normal car is halted, to evolve only the "important" one.
@@neutronalchemist3241 Pretty much every track day car in existence would benefit from FRIC suspension. Keeping the suspension level has been a struggle for the automobile's entire existence.
"Irrelevant" my ass
The teams: _FRIC_
Coming next, hyper active suspension from the early 90's Williams car. Loved watching that dance in the pits...
Dance?
As far as I know McLaren's could do more. Such as active stabilization.
@@avada0 when they tested it in the pits they made it dance... 40 years before tesla...
@@stevenlarratt3638 i know what you are referring to
Hyper active suspension? F1 fairies mandate Ritalin. Innovation crushed once again by the timid.
Honestly, they are such Weakmen, I'm utterly shocked that they have not yet twigged to the idea of giving everyone trophies. We wouldn't want anyone's fillings to be hurt, right?
I think citroen did it best 😁😁
4:42 the pitched forward "under braking" visual just looks like the Red Bull car at a standstill LOL
Lol, that's what i was saying
High rake has the highest badass factor tho
Hey Otmar, check out this high-rake
Aw FRIC.
I'm talking about the suspension.
Jus' talkin' 'bout FRIC.
potassium be like..
Citroen has a long history with this type of suspension if anyone was interested in seeing its application in commercially available cars. They call it Hydractive and have had some form of it available since the 50's
2 ads before, an ad in the beginning of the video, 2 in the middle and ads immediately at the end
and then youtube wonders why adblock is the first addon everyone installs
Pay for youtube premium... I initially was against it, but then I realised what 1 hour of my time is worth compared to how much time I was wasting with ads.
The problem with Adblock is that the content creator then doesn't get paid. It's the ads that pay their bills and allow them to create this content.
If you get youtu.be premium however, you can avoid the ads, but also support your favorite channels.
@@ke6gwf i know. i often watch youtube on mobile without adblock but depending on the time of day the ads are too much. not even 2mins without interruption
it also kinda doesnt work: if unskippable i just look away and if skippable i watch the lower right corner
@@richardtickler8555 I have not seen an ad on RUclips for years lol
The reason I originally signed up for Premium was so I could do background play on mobile, but boy it's worth it to guiltlessly not have any ads!
@@ke6gwf also you can download songs/videos and it is not only one device where you have 0 ads, it's also for TV useful! So when you got a smartphone, pc and TV it's worth it a lot. Also you don't have the music stopping and RUclips asking you if you still there :D
Damn! The Engineering involved in this must be ridiculous!
Yeah its basically like longitudinal and diagonal torsion bars. How do you even set that up haha
welcome to f1 :P
@@BlogVomMax you know they still have a compression chamber where they can then attach the tubes onto. Depending on the purpose it would be higher or lower in that chamber
There actually were mechanical and hydraulic solutions on road legal cars that did that: Swiss Sauerer 4 MH (and its brothers 6MH and 8MH) purely mechanically, the well known Citroen DS 19 with Hydropneumatic and english car maker Austin with its Hydrolastic by electromachanical controlled hydraulic systems. Of course, electronic control gives more ways of active control and add even more complexity.
@@genius1a Was the hydropneumatic suspension on the ds 19 intertwined? Didnt know that
I’m so irrationally angry this advanced system was banned
Not irrational at all, it's completely silly that left/right roll heave control is allowed, but passive front /back pitch control is banned, wtf is the difference here?! Under the "aero dynamic aid" argument, well ban all suspension control then, the remaining mechanical grip could be managed purely by tyre pressure probably...
@@Mr.NiceUK probably it was too expensive to develop for teams. All of them agreed to a ban
@@Mr.NiceUK The "aerodynamic aid" argument is quite frustrating because almost any change to the car will affect aerodynamics, even the amount of fuel in the car will change the ride height and therefore affect the aerodynamics
@@mrfreckles666 brakes are aero devices under the FIA's logic xD
@@1320crusier You mean the brake ducts
And Chain Bear’s back!
If my channel was as good as his I'd be dancing on boris Johnsons head
FRICing finally
Three more of these videos and I'm sending my CV to FIA.
Are you an expert in not letting others do cool stuff (aka griefing)? :-P
@@ivan_pozdeev_u Do they have kids?
Good grief, WHY? FIA sucks. They turned a once interesting event into BORING. They are yet another embodiment of the communist mindset - uniformity dull and snooze-inspiring. They quell innovation through bans and drum up their own lame requirements like hybridization and so forth.
Yuck.
It's 1 am right now fuck school im watching this before my mechanics class
It's 8mins. You don't need to skip anything.
There are actually quite a few road cars with similar systems to this, such as the Citroen ds 21, Multiple Mclarens, and even some pickup trucks (to prevent the rear from bottoming out when fully loaded).
bmc 1100. nuff said. 1100s were terrible
4:00 "The system that was gaining traction…"
That was punny!
I'm glad to see that you're back!! Although, you should change your audio setup back to whatever you had before
1:10 bottom right
@@jacobbroughton6565 good fucking eyes m8
Room acoustics probably
@@rabmccudden683 Nope, that's clearly active noise cancellation trying to cancel all sounds but it voice thus make a strange digital noise whenever his voice is getting lower in amplitude ;)
@@Liace159 nope its an untreated room, flutter echo can sound like the effect you're talking about.
Hey! Could you cover a video on the high rake and low/high rake philosophy that's the talk of the pre-season? Sorry if you have already done it in a video, could you guys point me to the video where he covered it, if he did? Thanks!
no problem! he already covered this a few years back so I am not surprised you couldn't find it. here's the link:ruclips.net/video/dQw4w9WgXcQ/видео.html
@@alistairwhite8575 that was uncalled for
I knew it, I knew what I was going to hear and I still did it...
@@the_luggage but you needed to know for sure didn't you?
@@alistairwhite8575 I know that link too well... Not getting me
There is a book that I read called “The Mechanics Tale” by Steve Matchett. It cover F1 in the early 1990’s and covered the rise and ban of active suspension. Really cool read and I would recommend to all who watched this. Anyway, great video as always Chain Bear :)
Reminds me of MG/Rover/BL etc's Hydralastic/Hydragas systems, just more advanced!
bmc 1100. nuff said. 1100s were terrible
@@raymondo162 Terrible because of Hydrolastic, or something else?
I just happened to finish reading Adrian Newey’s book yesterday where he talked about this FRIC system. Thanks for the explanation!
If I'm not mistaken the Audi RS4 B7 has this system, except Audi used the flimsiest and cheapest pipe to connect the system and every single car has suspension failure at some point.
If anyone was wondering you can change what is called anti-dive and anti-squat by changing the angle of the upper or lower control arms, the corners of the car might not be interconnected however you can use this to make the rear lower during braking or the front lift during braking, if you take it to extremes.
Can you share more information?
@@beardedginger3401 ruclips.net/video/UhjQXJ6Yegs/видео.html a good watch, guy really knows his stuff. And Engineering Explained has videos on it.
Yes but there are some serious trade-offs, especially up front. The geometry needed to get a significant amount of geometric anti-dive up front makes for very poor bump response, bad bump and roll caster change and a host of other problems. It's still useful, but only in moderation.
This episode is gonna be FRIC'ing amazing
**ba dum tss**
Aw crap, I broke my FRIC'ing drum!
*tss
Aw fric, the banned FRIC suspension!
YEEEEEEES
So it's like a passive active suspension.. I wonder what F1 would look like with active components.
The cars would probably look a lot more like LMP1 cars.
Returning to active suspension would go a long way in aiding overtaking. As the following car could dynamically adapt it's aero platform the leading's turbulent wake. TBH, while "fric" is banned POU is another answer to ride control. My favourite thing about F1 is watching brilliant engineer concocting ways around stringent regulations. Turns out blown diffusors, flexy bodywork and aero elasticity were being employed way back in the 70's and 80's. Designers have just developed every more elaborate ways of reengineering similar effects. Which is frustrating when people keep saying we're going back to ground effect cars, as if current aren't ground effect cars.😑
F1 probably wouldn't exist because the cars would be much more complex and therefore prohibitively expensive to develop.
@@Elbuarto like $400m annual budget expensive?
@@Elbuarto Going active now would be cheaper. The amount of money teams spend on passive systems today is staggering. With active, you have upfront costs for the system itself but after that, development consists of a software update.
I'm genuinely in awe of the quality of your explanations. As someone who wasted many, many hours trying to explain how the physics of driving and components of the suspension worked via text and diagrams back on the GTP forums I can appreciate how difficult it is to refine the concepts into digestible portions that are easy to understand. I only wish I had your videos to refer people to back then, it would have saved me so much time and confusion.
Keep up the great work
Interconnection brilliant on 2CV- mini/1100/1300/Princess/Allegro/Ambassador, and of course a 15/DS/SM/GS/BX/Xantia/XM/C5/C6 👍
Good change of pace with this series. Love it
The 1960s era MG 1100 had a hydraulic system like this, to provide a more level and smooth ride for this small car. It worked very well. IIRC a 70s era Mercedes 500 SEL also had a similar system.
Would you do a video about wheel covers? Particularly how they might be used to aid downforce and how it would improve visibility in the wet?
You sound like youre on a zoom meeting lol
I thought the same lol
Yes, the sound quality isn´t great
His voice doesn’t help either
I prefer the wall and wish you were here
Thanks for the clear and concise explanation. You are the best!
TFW a form of suspension is smarter than you.
“*What the FRIC?!*”.
Chain bear in all sincerity thank you so much for making your videos. I got into sim racing last year and am still learning but your videos have helped me tremendously. I hope you're doing well. Have an excellent day.
Hey buddy ! I am a big fan of your work and as a new fan of this sport your channel helps a lot .
1st time visit to this site so didn't know what to expect. Being largely mechanically incompetent (I barely know that a screwdriver has other uses than stirring your tea), I was pleasantly surprised to find how much of this I understood and even enjoyed doing so. Not enough to subscribe but enough to "like" and to recommend to a couple of people who'd appreciate it, and to say:
"Thanks"
for making and sharing this well thought out and presented this surprisingly interesting lesson, and wishing your site well for its future.
Just a sophisticated version of the “Hydrolastic” suspension fitted to BMC Minis and 1100s back in the’60s.
BL, 1300,s, Allegro,s,Ambassadors and quite a few others had something similar this 40- 60 years ago, depending on model used.
hydrolastic, used to have to go to garage, plug it into a pump, and pump up your suspension, or, take fluid out, lower it.
later type called Hydrogas
Mclaren have a similar setup in the 720S called Proactive Chassis Control II. Awesome tech!
It is always interesting learning about how and why things were banned. It is such a tricky balance to make a competition about engineering without it getting really unfair or just having no driver skill involved at all. It will be interesting to see the race series that has self driven cars. Then it really is all about the engineering and the software.
Just like the hydroelastic setup on Minis and my MG1100 -- more or less. Broke all the suspension mounts on that MG before it was done.
The music slowly creeping in the end is great piece of editing. 🙂
Really informative & love learning awesome stuff 👍🏻
Feeling all rebellious with my Morris 1100.
Every time I learn about things the FIA bans, I get annoyed at how much innovation is restricted by them. I agree with some of them (active suspensions, ABS) that can greatly reduce how much driver skill matters, but genius things like this are always frustrating. Things like DAS, like separate front and rear brake pedals, like the tuned mass damper in the front wing, are just genius ideas that should reward teams for thinking of them, and for more than just a season until the FIA bans them.
FIA is committed in a perennial struggle to ensure F1 cars to remain cars, and that means banning a lot of things that makes sense only on a F1 track. So downforce is allowed, but a suspension whose entire goal was to take advantage of the kind of downforce that only a F1 car has, is not.
They get their glory for 1 or at most 2 seasons. Then they are banned because now other teams who might research their own innovative technologies now have to put money into that new successful tech of another team.
By frequently banning such technologies, every team is even more eager to innovate to be able to surprise their competition with new tech, since they know that not many other teams will be able to utilize it. If anything this increases innovation overall since teams aren't just jumping to that one technology which works best and disregarding all others. The FIA decreases the bar such that more technologies are actually viable.
@@djhokage1 There's no reason that these innovations preclude other innovations. Teams would try to replicate other technologies that other teams do while making their own. There are still advantages for the team that first comes up with it.
@@illegitimate0 Some argue the creativity is not born out freedom but of trying to escape restrictions.
love the channel man
This is so interesting. Im learning hydraulics in high end rc construction equipment. Now I want to make an active hydraulic suspension using a couple of gyros and 4 pumps to actively increase dampening to each shock in an rc truck. Thanks for the inspiration...
Maybe a new Chain Bear video will make it so that I'm not constantly singing the can-can of drivers moving around this offseason, my girlfriend LOVES it
"WHAT ABOUT RED BULL!?"
AND GEORGE!!!
So now you've figured out 3D modelling we're going to get all of the saved up suspension videos. I love it!
When I read the title, I immediately thought about the Williams FW14B/C and the first-gen Audi RS6. They could be honorable mentions here, given their older design.
Is it just me who gets a bit angry about all these Bans that could later be introduced into our road cars after some more development and cost reduction?
This was introduced in road cars in the 50s
FIA is committed in a perennial struggle to ensure F1 cars to remain cars, and that means banning a lot of things that makes sense only on a F1 track. So downforce is allowed, but a suspension whose entire goal was to take advantage of the kind of downforce that only a F1 car has, is not.
very thankful for u teaching us.
This is brilliant. Thanks Chain Bear. Can you please do a video on the Tunned Mass Damper that Reanult used in 2005 and 2006?
If anyone wants more insights into an actual suspension system build like that:
ruclips.net/video/cPouQxfohXA/видео.html
It's not F1, it's an engineering competition for university students, but it's pretty much what is described here. With finer control even, because it the system built buy the eth of Zurich team had rebound and dampening control over pitch roll and yaw fully indipendently and decoupled
FSAE is amazing
Yaw controll would be fun in f1
@@guanweihe7614 it is, it's great fun and super interesting to designs and build your car. And drooling at the top euro teams ofc
@@WhiteThunder121 to be clear, it's not active control, just spring rate and dampness, and depending on what they are attaching to the idraulcs, some sort of high/low speed compression adjustment
@@salmiakki5638 It wouldn't be rocket science to put a device in the middle that can pressurise the fluid when needed, but it is certainly a major design decision
Has any production car ever used this technology?? This sounds amazing!
If I recall correctly the first team to introduce this kind of system was Minardi under technical direction from Aldo Costa. Who then went on to work for Mercedes.
I literally had this idea in like 2010.
I also have a pulse cam idea that only needs 4 to 6 cams to hydraulically activate the valves.
I love passive systems. I would have liked to see that end up in road cars down the line
Seeing that current F1 cars have a maximum travel of around 50 MM (bumpy/ wet track) and generally 20 MM in the dry, the tyre sidewall is in effect 50% of their suspension. I wonder, how they will offset the suspension lost with the new regulations with a lower profile tyre.
McLaren's Super Series cars (12C/650/675 & 720S) use a system similar to this, they call it Proactive Chassis Control (PCC). Originally develped by Chris Heyring of Kinetic Pty in Australia it has been used very successfully in various rally, off road and competition cars as well.
Do you have any examples of this system being used in a rally car? I'm not doubting you I'd just like to read more into it.
@@n111254789 Citroen used it in Loeb's all conqueuering Xsara/C4 WRC cars in the mid 2000s. They used it in their Dakar cars as well. It was banned soon after. www.invetr.com/chassis/citron-xsara-wrc-withkinetic-rfs www.autosport.com/general/news/citroens-kinetic-rfs-suspension-system-5020326/5020326/
Just how badass of a racer would the car be, that used all the banned techniques at will!
I need to know!
TBH I think they binned many advancements like FRIC simply to keep cornering speeds down. Without regulations team would be driving podracers around Spa by now.
The Formula SAE team AMZ Racing developed a hydraulic decoupled suspension system in 2017. Their lecture video is on RUclips and goes far more in depth into why this type of system is advantageous. Very very cool system.
Are you planning on doing one of those prediction quizzes like last year? No pressure I just really enjoyed it!
I recall seeing this being tested on an ambulance many years ago.
Yeah - a Citroen DS21 Safari kitted out to be an ambo. Oh wait, those cars were in production from 1955. pffft
Suspension that feels like no suspension! Two steps forward, three steps back.
Will we see a 2021 predictions video this year Mr Bear?
Meanwhile over in MotoGP, the riders drag the front brake while going through the corner to change the rake so things turn faster (trail braking). And to mash the front tire to increase the surface patch.
F1 Team: *Breathing
FIA: BAN!
Lol
More like "f1 team throws more money than everyone else put together can afford at R&D killing the competition" which is what mercedes keeps doing. Everyone is good at winning when they can just spend more, instead of coming up with clever and less expensive solutions (which is the other point FIA wants to keep, because motorsports drive innovation in city cars as well). We'll see how they will do next year with the budget limit.
Me when my innovative suspension gets banned, but I don't actually want to swear: FRIC!
2021 Predictions Challenge?
We're one week out from the first race, and It won't be the same without the Chain Bear contest.
cool....i thought about a simplified similar concept a few years ago, i was designing a hydraulic anti dive system
Sounds similar to the Citroen DS series(1955-1975) hydraulic suspension
First time heard this, dang what a cool tech. This kind of tech should have been regulated instead of banned. Well, F1 has been infamously innovative in banning exquisite tech innovation, though...
Thus increasing innovation. So why are people complaining about the bans?
@@djhokage1 hey, that actually makes more sense. Prohibition encourages more ingenuity and creativity. Don't people tend to complain about freedom limitation though it ain't theirs to begin with? Please, don't take this politically, cheers.
You could argue that since now more of the aerodynamic forces are being generated from the underbody, its a safety matter to make sure the car is level and stable as we don't want someone suddenly losing grip and crashing.
PLEASEEEEEE FIA...
My 1965 Mini Cooper s has hydrolastic suspension, front connected to the back diagonally. That’s why the mini is a road hugger and gets the name “brick” . It’s because it rides flat like a brick. Old technology that is still good today.
Toyotas KDSS system for their off-road vehicles is similar in concept for more contact with surface during wheel articulations.
Sounds like it was based on the Hydrolastic Suspension by Alex Moulton that was stock in my 1964 MG 1100s. Really an excellent system.
I'd love for active suspension to come back, mainly because the only team that has really ever delved into it as far as I'm aware is Williams, and I'd love to see them at the front again
this is just amazing, i really wanna see this come back. its too inovative to not keep and with the cost cap now in place itll stop over investment into this area with big teams getting away with incredibly complex designs smaller teams will never be able to match
It's not really all that good a system. Just hysteresis alone would be horrible with this and there are far more problems than that. There are far better ways to do what this does, the only problem is that they are all banned as well. The obvious and far superior way to do it is active suspension.
The banning of active suspension made a lot of sense at the time. Only a couple of teams had access to such systems and the cost of developing them made it impossible for any other teams to compete. But it no longer makes sense. The big teams can spend millions developing passive systems to a level the smaller teams can't match but they could all eliminate that by going active. With active if you need to make a significant change to your suspension, you don't need to redesign the whole back half of the car and gearbox, you just need a software update.
AYEEEEEEEEEE HES BACK
we gotta bring back this tho subtitute for the dirty air aerodynamics
I think a racing series without any technical regulations could be dope, although copying should be prohibited. But I would love to see how good a F1 car can actually get
Interesting. Toyota’s KDSS system they put in the 4runner and Land Cruiser does exactly this, but I think only for roll forces.
Has some amazing applications for drag racing.
FRIC suspension - now that is something I haven't heard in a while.
The 2002 Audi RS6 used a hydraulic anti-roll system like this. Odd that it took 12 more years for it to show up on the track.
The Toyota 4runner KDSS suspension is similar to this except it's for articulation.
Why isn't any one looking at drivetrain suspension control . When power is applied the car it moves up or down depending on how much throttle is used but if the the throttle is applied just right you can control ride height and also have dive control ( like launch control applies just the right amount of power for a good launch ).
i want to see that renault nose mass damper come back
Great video! Audio sounds weird sometimes tho
Citroen has had a front - rear interactive suspension on their 2CV for decades.
The original 'wet' Mini, Austin 1100 and 1800's had a simplified version of this in the 60's.
1:05 to skip the baked in ad.
What a modern and sophisticated system!!! Oh wait, Citroen 2CV had front-rear suspension linked :D
So did the 55-57 Packard automobiles with interconnected torsion bars.
Like the old hydrolastic on the early minis and 2CV's
F1 Regulations: No fric
Christian Minecraft server: No fric
being back the frickin' FRIC!
HE IS BACKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
Whens the 2021 predictions video out Chainbear?!
Hydrolastic Suspension, was found in Mini as early as 1965.
This suspension could be really cool for off-road vehicles and even just a luxury consumer vehicle for keeping the car level without any high tech suspension so it would be lighter and more reliable
These types of things are not all that desirable for offroad racing. You want as much independence in your suspension as possible. You don't want the right front hitting a rock causing the left rear suspension to do something weird. This is why many offroad vehicles don't even have anti-roll bars and when they do, the ratio of bar rate to spring rate is minuscule compared to an onroad race car.
@@wingracer1614 yeah I didn’t think of that but it would be cool on a consumer luxury vehicle